I met Rosemary when I hosted a panel discussion at the IANDS conference in the summer of 2020. Rosemary was a panelist discussing grief and how we can grow from it.

Rosemary’s husband took his life and left a note blaming Rosemary. Many of us feel guilt over the passing of a spouse or a child. Fortunately, not many of have the added burden of being told it’s our fault.

Two years later, Rosemary was diagnosed with cancer. As a result of one of her procedures, Rosemary died.

Rosemary got a reboot on the other side. Hear her story in this spellbinding interview. Rosemary is a prolific author and does an incredible job of telling this uplifting and healing story.

 

 

Transcript

Brian Smith 0:00
Close your eyes and imagine what are the things in life that causes the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we’ve been buried. But what if, like a seed we’ve been planted and having been planted, who grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is brief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. Hey, everybody, this is Brian back with another episode of roof to growth I’ve got with me today, Rose ringer. And Rose has a very interesting tale to tell us I can’t wait to have a conversation with her. I’m going to introduce rose roses husband committed suicide at their home. And when that happened, she fell into a pit so deep and dark that medical professionals expressed doubts she’d ever recover. And then two years after her husband took his life, Rose was diagnosed with stage two cancer and doing a related minor medical procedure in quotes because we know how those go. she bled to death and had no heartbeat for more than 10 minutes. And having her predominant emotion was profound gratitude that this life experience has ended. But the angelic being she encountered encouraged rose to return to Earth. And she was told us she agreed to go back to be restored to perfect health physically, emotionally and mentally. And then after that several medical tests confirmed all the angels’ promises were accurate. Soon after she was discharged from hospital rose implemented a detailed plan to sell all her possessions or homeowner car closer business, donate a lifetime of research materials move 1000 miles west to start a new life. And rose now lives with a little dog Teddy in the Midwest, where they like to spend their time quietly admiring the breathtaking beauty of the wide open spaces. So I want to welcome you rose to grief to growth. It says great to have you here.

Rosemary Ringer 2:03
Thank you so much.

Brian Smith 2:05
Yeah, we met, I guess was just a few weeks ago, we were on a panel of ions talking about grief, and loss and recovery from that. So you have recovered from quite you know, a couple of things that that are just totally devastating would or would be to most people. So if you would just tell your story and however you’d like to and start where we’d like to start.

Rosemary Ringer 2:27
Okay. Well, I guess the starting point would be April 2016. My husband who was the I thought the answer to a lifetime of prayers. Somebody I loved very deeply and never took it never took for granted a day of our lives together, came home for lunch one day in April 2016 sat down in a chair and put a gun in his mouth and ended his life. And I have always been a writer, I’ve been writing for 30 years, everything from newspaper reporting to books, I’ve written nine books, I’m extremely sensitive. And as you probably know life for a sensitive souls kind of hard on this earth, not an easy place to be. And the last four words, my husband articulated in this on this earth where this is your fault. It sent me that as a text. So that was I can’t even say it was a twist to the knife. It was devastating. Beyond devastating, so I lost my mind. You know, back in the day, we called it a nervous breakdown. I don’t know what we’d call it today. And one of the things I discovered is obtaining psychiatric help or mental health care even I should say, it’s very difficult. As soon as my children immediately were on the phone trying to find some help for me, because I was I was probably on the cusp of a psychotic break, the pain was just more than I could bear. And the soonest we could find an appointment I think was five weeks away, which for somebody who was then living in five minute increments, and I that’s what I did, I would say to myself, just get through five minutes, get through the next five, five weeks felt like 1000 years away. And ultimately, a friend who is a mental health care worker pulled some strings and got me into see a mental health care worker within hours. But that shouldn’t be the way it is. But again, I don’t want to digress. So after suicide I was in pretty bad shape. I became addicted to alcohol and prescription drugs. It turns out when your husband does this, they will give you all the benzodiazepines that you can that you can use. I would get prescriptions of 90 count out of an or Valium or both as often as I wanted them. So there was a day that I was probably doing, I don’t know eight to 10 A DAY PLUS drinking which is not wise and benzodiazepines and alcohol are very bad combination. And I just continued a downward spiral after the funeral. I never spent the night in that house again. And you know different friends in the The herd tried to take me in, but I was almost like a wounded animal. I could not find comfort anywhere. I cannot even I couldn’t get comfortable. So for a short time I actually lived out of my car. My husband was a litigator. So you know, this is, this is quite a thing for us to go from being this couple. That here I have written several books and had some success in the writing world, married to this prominent attorney, and now I’m living out of my Camry. And a friend again, a very sweet friend on the periphery of my life stepped in and said, you’re getting too comfortable in that car. You’re coming home with me. And I said, No, I’m not I you don’t know. I scream in the middle of the night. I can’t sleep I paced I sleepwalk. I’m a mess. She said, let’s try it for one night. And that was brilliant. Because one night I thought all right, she’s been a sweet friend. I can. I can do this for one night. And I stayed with her for four months. And then I rented a small home in a nearby city and lived I actually had a friend live with me there because I was still not able to care for myself. And I lost a tremendous amount of weight, which is so typical. You know, I just I was living on those liquid nutrition drinks. I couldn’t swallow. I couldn’t do solid food. So. So that’s how my life went. And then after a couple years, I asked my friend to I told him I was ready to live on my own. And that was 29 months later, I was out in the yard doing some work and pulling a bag of gravel across the yard actually picked it up to hoist it and I felt something happened internally and and I’d had some symptoms I’d been having a low grade fever. I’ve been spotting. You know, a lot of I knew something wasn’t quite right. Anyway, they diagnosed diagnosed me with cervical cancer. And they sent me on to an oncologist and the ecologist at his preliminary exam. He said.

He said, it’s a stage two, he said, I can already see it spread to nearby flesh. And he said, it’s advanced to a point where your flesh is distorted. And I was I was I just got plunged right back into the worst grief. I thought, wow, what now What next? And then it was during a surgical biopsy, which he performed to determine exactly how far this spread. And after I woke up from that they in the hospital, they they asked me get up and go to the bathroom, get myself together. And I did and I came out of that bathroom. So I’m bleeding profusely. And I’m 59 years old at this point, and the RN was very dismissive. So once you get home wipe down, you’ll be fine. So three times total. I told her this is not this cannot be normal. I’m losing a tremendous amount of blood, but they sent me home anyway. And within an hour at home, I contacted I had my friend who’d come home with me, call 911 I realized I was bleeding to death. And they transported me to a nearby er in Virginia, they have these little standalone ers that are not affiliated or connected with the hospital. And that’s where I was taken and they were out of their element. And they stuffed me with Gods like I could Christmas goose. Thinking all that did was stop them. As it turns out, it didn’t stop the bleeding. So I continued to bleed. Nobody knew it. So they were satisfied. Oh yeah, I don’t see any blood will leave her and my buddy. His name is Milton. He, um, he sat by my side at that Gurney faithfully. And he said he looked up and I passed out pretty quick. They had given me some dilaudid for pain. Turns out is kind of contra indicated for somebody with punching blood pressure. I think that just kind of grease the skids. You know, I don’t like my death. He said at one point, he looked up at the medical staff and walked out of the ER he said at one point he looked up at the blood pressure cuff, which was one of those blue machines on a stick and my blood pressure was 32 over 25 Oh, wow.

It’s not a lot. Yeah,

Brian Smith 8:55
I’m assuming you weren’t conscious at this point. I was not conscious. Yeah.

Rosemary Ringer 8:59
And he said at that point, he was getting ready to get up and go get a doctor. And at that point, my eyes popped open and I reached up to him and said, I tried to sit up on the gurney, which is pretty impressive for somebody with a blood pressure that’s over 25 Yeah, but I set up a tripod set up on the journey lifted my head and shoulders and stretched out my arms and reach to heaven. When he said you talk to somebody only you could see. You said you wiggle your fingers almost like a child reaching up for their father. Hmm. And he said after that I flopped back on the gurney, blood pressure went to error, which meant it was probably lower than 30 to over 25. And meanwhile, I was having a great time. I was unconscious at the moment of my death but I woke up when my heart stopped when boy did I wake up I woke up. It’s so I know this sounds out there. I do believe our near death experiences are customized for us. But in mine, it was as though there was a silver sinewy chord from the crown of my head to the bottom of my feet to my heel. And like an archers bow, like somebody had pulled way back on it and popped and released. And I went, I was catapulted out of that body like post out of a toaster. It was, I woke up, I feel this catapult and I was literally just sailing through the air floating further and further away from my body. It was great. And my first thought was, my heart is stopped. And I thought, How do I know that? I don’t know. I know that. But I know. That’s right. And, and then next thing I was just floating further and further away in this blackness. And my next emotion was gratitude. Because I realized I still had my intellectual curiosity, my intellectual intensity. I thought, I remembered, wow, this had all happened. And I thought, wow, I bet nobody was expecting this. When they, you know, stuffed me and then walked out of the room, are they gonna be surprised? And I remember, gratitude relief, I had struggled with suicidal temptations, dramatically. In fact, looking back at my journal, gosh, not 10 days before this happened. I had written in my gratitude journal. I did not kill myself today. That’s a win. Yeah, God, please remove these devilish temptations from my soul. So I had been fighting the urge to end my life, even up two days before this happened. And frankly, I was really probably relying on human will more than anything spiritual, and I was running out of road. I really was. So my feeling was I I did it, I pulled it off. No one’s gonna blame me. There’s not going to be the guilt, the horror. The rest of it. I’m done. And I foil boy, boy, I was just so relieved. I truthfully, and honestly felt as though I had been granted early release for good behavior. I was just so free to be out of that misery. And I remembered this oncologist had me scheduled to start chemotherapy and daily radiation, I think the next week, and I thought, we’re done.

We’re not gonna have to worry about that one. Yeah. But the fact that my memory was still so strong. In fact, I’m, I’m in ham radio, which you have to earn extra, which means you got to take a lot of tests and know a little bit about electronics. But it really felt like somebody who just put 100,000 amps through a 60 amp service, I felt so alive. I had the clearest, greatest mental acuity I have ever experienced. That was just so cool. You know, I think, I think the smart people say we use 67% of our brain. So like I was using 200% of it. I mean, and I didn’t have a brain, my brain is back on that Gurney. So and then the other thing floating in this blackness, the piece was so incredible. I know a lot of people talk about the love, but the thing I felt was peace and comfort. And this this enveloping blackness was, it was just comforting. It was like, everything about it brought me immense and great comfort. And I as a writer, I’ve always struggled with anxiety ever more. So since my husband’s messy ending, and to have that just gone. It wasn’t better. It was gone. And and so that I always I remember thinking, I’ve always wondered what I would look like if I had no anxiety, no fears, no worries. No, it was Yeah, great. Yeah. And as I’m thinking about this, I thought, I thought about a Bible verse, the peace that passeth all understanding. And I thought, This is what Paul was talking about. This is peace that nobody will understand until they experience it. And I thought that was so cool that I every memory I had was still with me. In fact, a memory from my infancy came back, which was so neat. But I remembered in again, so floating in this perfect, beautiful, comforting and comfortable blackness. I remember I’ve been here before, like 59 years ago, I’ve been here before and the angels spiritual being talked to me and said, Yes, your mother when she told you that you almost died as an infant. In fact, she was in 1959. She was chased out of the hospital not chased but asked to leave the hospital because they said as a newborn infant at the time the doctors told her her kidneys have now failed. The rest of her organs will soon follow. She’ll be gone in two to four hours. And they you know different world. They told my mother go home and focus on your other children. This one’s gone. So the angels told me they said yeah, you kind of crossed over then explains a lot about why you’ve always been a little different. From the rest of the world, I was like, wow, I wish I had known that 59 years ago, or at least the last 50. But, and then, at some point in this floating, I was joined by a massive spiritual being, and I mean, massive. And he she was above me and slightly to my left. And I turned my head, I felt this presence very succinctly. And I turned my head to the left and looked up, which I thought, I don’t know if I have a left shoulder, but I’m looking over something. And, but I could not see. And I said, literally, with a lot of joy in my voice, I said, Who are you? Because I’m like, I’m not alone. This is great. And the answer was you, rosemary, you are the image and likeness. I’m the original. And I thought, whoa, I think there’s Genesis 127 that were made the image and likeness of God. And that’s so cool. And then I also thought I would have been good to know back then, too, but you know, still really, really cool. And more than words that came with an infusion of knowledge I had, I’d been familiar that Bible verse most of my life, and now I’m like, I got it.

And then, at one point, I guess this was fairly early on, I had this thought, again, I’ve been a writer, and editor for 30 years, I had a thought, you’re dying, then I thought, actually, you’re not dying, you’re dead. And it cracked me up. And I laughed out loud. And I heard myself giggle. I heard myself giggle. And I sound just like I sound all the time. And I thought, well, I, I don’t have breath sounds, I’m pretty sure I don’t have lungs don’t have vocal cords. And yet I sound exactly the same. And that’s when I really boy was that a big deal to realize every single thing that defines us goes with us every single thing that makes us uniquely individual, from our memories to the sound of our voice to our bizarre sense of humor. I mean, and then I thought, it’s not about here, I’m going to my reward, and I’m correcting my tense. You know, I still think the angels care if I’m using in proper English. And that’s when I really pondered what exactly did I leave behind on that Gurney. And I realized only the negative, only darkness only the sadness on the degree. And you know, throughout this experience, and I guess, I wish I could share this with the world in the medical field. I kept hearing somebody literally scream, my name, rosemary, rosemary, and it was panicked, urgent and loud, right. And the thing is, you know, if you’re in a crowd, and somebody screams your name, you can’t help but whip your head around and see what’s happening. I had absolutely no desire to do that. It was like an annoying sound produced by an alarm clock that you wish would just stop. And in retrospect, it took me about a year to really sort that out. I think that in this experience, I had left those old personas behind mother, author, friend, and I wasn’t rosemary, I was a child of God going home. And so I guess if you know, I know the medical staff says they I know they do that they call your name. And it turned out that’s what it was. It was a nurse. Yes. Meaning My name tried to bring me back.

Brian Smith 18:17
But I did that when I found my daughter. So I know what that’s like. Yeah.

Rosemary Ringer 18:22
I it had no effect. And I don’t know what we can say to people. I mean, I don’t know what you can say. But I was so disconnected from that. And you know, an interesting aside as a writer, persona, is from the Latin word meaning mask. So we leave that as what we leave behind.

Brian Smith 18:40
Yeah, the mask, the role that we play when we’re here. Yeah,

Rosemary Ringer 18:43
right. We really do. So this one on and I, you know, if you if you told me, I’ve been dead for two days, two months, I would have easily believed it. And it’s hard to imagine in our very linear construct of time that we love, we just love it on Earth. Yeah, there is no time there is and I’m not even sure it’s linear. While I’m describing this and what I believe to be a chronological fashion. Who knows? You know, I don’t I don’t know. I know what it. I know how I remember it. So at some point, it’s floating in this blackness, mainly thinking about the peace and the joy. In fact, after I came back from this, one of the first things I did was sit down and make a detailed record of every single thing I remembered, experienced, felt and said, and as I’m floating in this blackness, I was just so full of joy like a child. And I, when I went back and reread my notes, I saw what I had said, and I remember this. I said, Wow, I like floating floating is fun. This is great. Well, as a writer, you think I could do something a little more prosaic, a little more loquacious. But yeah, that’s what I wrote. And that’s one of the reasons I know I had no one wanted to come back. No, no, no, I did not. I did not. I did not. I did not I, I just, it was so familiar being here and I knew I was going home. I you know, like the old song. Go, going, Oh, I knew I was no, no, no, no. I was like, wow, I put in my time. And honestly, another thought I had was, I finished the work. I was supposed to do. Yeah, no, I’m done. Yeah. And. And then it is like somebody took my batteries out. I don’t know what happened. Because one moment I’m floating in this blackness with these angels and spiritual beings with me. And the next thing I’m standing in a white room, and I’m on my feet, I no longer floating and, and I don’t know that I have feet. But I recognize that I’m in this beautiful, brilliantly lit White Room, the walls, ceiling floor is all white. It is. There are no light fixtures, it is the walls and the ceiling and the floor that are producing this luminescent, iridescent, perfect white, brilliant white, so brilliant, it’s almost blue, almost has a bluish tinge, but it was so beautiful. And I remember thinking, I don’t know if I have legs or feet, but I think I can move with intention. And I at the far end of this room, which wasn’t that far away, I saw a door and I know what the door is about I had spent my life 40 years I’ve been reading about every near death experience I could find really recognize now that was part of that experience as a child. But I was fascinated by near death experiences. And so I knew that door meant it was a border of boundary that that was the official crossing over. And I was like out of my way. I know where we’re going, I know what we’re doing. I can’t wait. And in that white room, there was a very fine, but thick mist falling. And it was it was like a very heavy fog. And yet it wasn’t deep. It wasn’t cold. It wasn’t warm, it just felt great. And I remember trying to focus on an individual droplet of this fog, which I know sounds bizarre, but I felt like I had to be able to see that I know that I should be able to see that. And this angel with me accompany me said Your eyes have not acclimated to this new experience yet. But each of those droplets are light. And they’re itty bitty bits of light. And when I walked through it, it’s swirled around me danced around me, it was so so beautiful. And what I was told is, when we go to heaven, some people have had a disease process for so long. They believe it’s part of their identity. And what happens in this fight room. And this was the word I was given is all of the muck of Earth is washed away. Oh, wow. And it’s washed away by this beautiful light, these little itty bitty droplets. And as a friend, I shared this with a friend of mine. She said yep, leave your muddy boots at the door. So that light was unbelievably beautiful. And it swirled. I mean, it just it was like sounds trite, but it sounds like it was all full of joy and happiness. And it was all around me. And it was all great. So I’m moving toward the door advancing again. I wish I guess I guess I kind of wish I’d looked at my feet. I don’t know.

Brian Smith 23:31
But I’ve heard other people say that it is I don’t know, if I had feet I didn’t bother to look down to see.

Rosemary Ringer 23:36
It was kind of you know, not a big deal. Yeah. And I move toward that door. And as I got close to the door, it was shut. And I put my right hand up to push through because I knew where it went and I was ready. And I paused at the door. And I asked very simply Is this the divine will for my life? That simple medical mistake takes me out. And I couldn’t even get past is this divine before the angel answered spiritual beings with me and said, No, but whatever you decide, if you decide to go back or you decide to go on, you go with all God’s grace and mercy and blessings and care. And that was great. I’ll take that deal. Don’t need to ask me again. I’ll I’ll go. And one of the things I guess I should have mentioned the beginning, after my husband’s death, there were three prayers I prayed every night, sometimes multiple times a day. But the first was God either let me die or heal me. I can’t do this. I had learned how to pretend. So why would go out in public and people would say How are you doing? And I thought be a Hollywood actress. And I would smile and so I’m doing great. You know, it all worked out. I’m doing fine. And meanwhile when I got home I would think about okay i would review a plan I had funding my life, I had a very detailed plan. And that brought me comfort. So my date, my daily prayer was either heal me or let me go. And the other prayer was no life review. And people tend to giggle at that. But that’s serious. My I had a recurring dream, a nightmare that plagued me for years, two years. I wasn’t home when my husband ended his life. But in this nightmare, I was just getting home. And he grabbed the gun. And I come around the corner as he’s putting it in his mouth, and I run to tackle him, but I’m always too late to trigger. So I had that nightmare, too many times to count. And other times, I had nightmares about what he looked like afterwards. I mean, it was, it was very intense. So my other dream, my other prayer was no life review. I’ve been through this once I had lost my mind, I really had lost my mind behave very badly, in a lot of ways. And in three, my prayer was, I can’t handle any more decisions after his death, and a lot of legal messes it up. And I mean, messes that cost thousands of dollars in legal fees. And you know, the lawyers who say, well, you need to do this, or you need to do that. But we need to know and I just cry, couldn’t take it couldn’t handle it. So this thing of when I was told at the door, that whatever you decide, and I was told there are no wrong decisions. And that brought me so much comfort and so much peace. So my God, I’m on it. I’ll do it. Yeah, I put my right hand up to push through the store pretty interested by the fact that I’m right handed. In heaven. I mean, I’m right handed on Earth, right handed in heaven. Oh, how cool is that? Even that little detail? My identity has gone on with me. And then I had shortly before I lost consciousness at that little standalone er in Suffolk, Virginia. This very kind hearted nurse about my age, very motherly, very sweet, very kind eyes. She had been by my side as I was laid out on that Gurney, and she,

I grabbed her hand, I said, promise me, you’re not gonna let me die. And interesting side effect of bleeding to death, everything’s bleeding to death is you know, easy. It’s messy. And it’s terrifying how much blood the human body can hold. And it’s terrifying to see that flow out of yourself and know that people aren’t taking you seriously when you say I think I’m bleeding to death. So I grabbed this nurses and oh, and you become anxious. That’s a common side effect is because your brain isn’t working quite like it should. It’s not quite enough oxygen, so you can’t reason things out. grabbed the nurses hand in the ER again, shortly before they gave me that shot shortly before I passed out. And I said Promise me You’re not gonna let me die. And she’s very sweetly she’s Oh, honey, we’re not gonna let you die. We have many solutions for this. Okay, that sounds good. Yeah. So at the door, ready to go on, put my right hand up ready to take that deal that God has offered that whatever I decide, you know, I go well, God’s grace and mercy and blessings and care. I have a vision of that nurse. And it’s a very intense vision. And she is sitting in a hospital supply room on a little metal stool surrounded by linens and other medical supplies. And she’s leaning forward on that little stool with her head in her hands sobbing uncontrollably. And she says through tears, I promised that woman I wasn’t going to let her die. And I lost her. Like, Oh, no, don’t do this to me. As an empathic person, oh my gosh. And then I thought, well, I know she’s an RN. She’s been through this before she’ll get through this.

Brian Smith 28:52
Yeah. So get over it, you’ll get

Rosemary Ringer 28:54
over it. And I need to go more than she needs me here. And then I got ramped up and then I felt her pain. I felt her agony and I felt her grief and I recognized it as the same pain I had known for 29 months after my husband suicide and I thought if my coming back will spare a soul that much pain I guess I better do that. And I put my right hand down at my side like ah crap, but what I actually what I said is kind of funny now. I said this is going to ruin ruin that woman’s day if I die. And then in a millisecond of a millisecond I was back in that body. There was no whoosh there was no return. You know, no tunnel. No nothing. I was back in that body and what seems like a millisecond.

Announcer 29:48
We’ll get back to grief to growth in just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian is an author and a life coach. If you’re grieving or know someone who is grieving his book, grief to growth is a best selling ease To read book that might help you or someone you know, people work with Brian as a life coach to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers at WWW dot grief to growth.com www dot g ri e f, the number to growth.com or text growth gr o w th 231996. If you’d like to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com slash grief to growth www.paen.com slash g ri e f, the number two gr o w th to make a financial contribution. And now back to grief to growth.

Rosemary Ringer 30:49
But lots of activity going on all around me. They they had brought in my buddy Milton said they brought in everybody even the reception to work on me. So yeah, there was a lot of activity they slowly Gurney and took me out of there. Wow. took me to a real hospital.

Brian Smith 31:07
So you apparently at the moment when you made the decision that you are going to come back for this nurses benefit. You just you’re just back. Wow.

Rosemary Ringer 31:17
And miffed. People say Oh, I thought when you woke up, you know, when you were back and your body was so grateful. It’s just like, No, I was ticked. I remember looking up at the corner of the room. And I thought I felt like I could see one of my angels there. And I said, What are we gonna talk about this? Robert’s Rules of Order. We you know, we had a first we didn’t have a second, we didn’t have a discussion. Why do you have an energy it takes to die? It took me hours. Yeah. And then, you know, people say after they come back from the dead of the day feel like they’re half in this world and half an hour. And I felt like I was 95% in that world. And 5%. And this one, in fact, the first 24 hours, I knew I was very close to dying again. I felt it I felt very weird. And I’m not sure part of that being stuffed back into the flesh after you’ve been in a body. Or if it’s the fact that I mean I bled to death. The next morning, the doctor affirmed, which was very helpful. He then the next morning, the doctor comes in to see me at the hospital. And he said, You’re you’ve had a heart attack. And I said, Well, you’ve got the wrong person, I’m healthy I bike I walk, etc. And he said, No, no, you got you had a pretty serious heart attack. And I said, what are we talking about? He said, Well, you lost more than 40% of your blood volume. And then your heart went into V fib and stopped. So when I heard that those first words that said, My heart is stopped, it was right. So he said, I said, how would you say I lost more than 40%? I need a number. You know, I guess I’m kind of analytical, give me a number. So after 40%, it doesn’t matter, you died. So it was it was pretty dramatic. And then after that the next 24 hours, I did feel like I was close to death still. And I asked the angels, because I did feel them all around me. I wish I could live in that moment of feeling their presence. And I asked the angels, are we doing this again? What’s the plan? It’s okay. Either way, just want the plan one or the plan at the angel said no. We’re they said we’re healing and fixing things that there’s some more to do with this body. And in 24 hours, I felt that feeling of things being so off had gone and I started to feel better. And it took some time. Because you don’t have to tell the doctors, I had to find a new oncologist. By the way. The old one. insisted I start chemotherapy, as soon as I was healed from this the chemo and the radiation. And I said I’m pretty sure I was healed in heaven. And he said, Nope, nope, nope, nope, we’re not. And I said, Well, what happens if you do another biopsy said no, no. I said, Well, what if you take another look? Nope, nope, nope, nope. So I had to find another oncologist. And you know, I was still very excited about all this heaven business. And I said, I died and went to heaven. I talked to the agents, I get sent back, but it was great, great, great, great. And she said, You bled to death from a cervical biopsy. She was a lot more interested in that than my Yeah,

Brian Smith 34:16
yeah.

Rosemary Ringer 34:18
And ultimately, there was another surgery and a lot of flesh was taken from a lot of places. And it was affirmed that not one self cancer was found. And they biopsied me a lot of different ways. In fact, while I was unconscious, I was on I was on the surgery, operating table for more than three hours. While I was unconscious, they did the multiple biopsies and even brought in people to do biopsies in addition to the doctor so they could look at several slides from several places. Right before the surgery. She said rosemary, if I find any cancer anywhere, we’re going to take your lymph nodes because we have to see how far this is spread. Yeah, and The beauty part again, my poor buddy Milton, he was waiting out in the waiting room for the surgery, which happened about eight weeks after my near death experience, they were very concerned about me being healed. He said the surgeon came through the doors and found him in the waiting room to give him an update on how the surgery went through her arms around his neck and said, She’s right. There’s nothing there. And she said, not only is there nothing there, but her flesh is so pink and pretty and perfect. I don’t think she ever had cancer. Oh, wow. Wow. pretty dramatic.

Brian Smith 35:40
Yeah. So at some point, were you told that you’re going to be healed if you came back?

Rosemary Ringer 35:44
Yes. I’m sorry. I guess I should have put that in. Yes, it read the discussion in the white room. I was told if I agreed to come back, I’d be restored in the fullness. And and you know, people love the story of being healed of cancer. And I don’t want to diminish that in any way. The but the healing of my soul. You know, Psalms 23 said he restores my soul, the healing of the grief and the desire to die and the suit. Well, the suicidal ideations? Sure, that was gone. And I mean, I just, I cried a lot, the first few days, because everything was so beautiful. When I was alone in the hospital room, I had two buddies that were kind of actually three buddies, we’re kind of tag teaming each other. So I wasn’t alone in the hospital. And even coming back from this. I was, I was still a little disoriented. An interesting fact, when somebody bleeds to death, you can’t even do CPR on them, because it just pushes pushes more blood out. So I had no heartbeat, no blood pressure, and no oxygen getting to my brain for more than 10 minutes. Wow. So the fact that I came back intact, and without significant damage to any organs is pretty dramatic.

Brian Smith 37:03
Yeah, yeah. That’s our call itself. Yeah,

Rosemary Ringer 37:07
it is. And, but when my buddies would have to step out of the hospital room, and you know, sometimes I knew I’d be okay. The angels would come by my hospital bed and sing to me. And they sang me the most beautiful songs, and even had music went with it. And the songs were so beautiful, and I would cry. And I would say, don’t stop, I but But please, you know, overlook the tears. And I said, I, I want to remember this, I want to write this down. I want to save every word in every note. And I told the angels, I’m not good with melody, I’m not good with lyrics, I don’t know that I’m going to be able to remember this, the angel said, This isn’t for you to remember this is for your healing, and your joy and your peace. And honestly, it almost felt like it was a thank you for agreeing to come back. And they knew how hard that was to leave that perfect space. And yet, you know, one of the things that I realized not, I guess a few weeks ago, when I asked Is this the divine will for my life, as I paused at that door in the white room. It’s because when you’re there, all you want to do is glorify God. All you want to do is do what God wants you to do that will bring the most blessing to the most people. And I think that’s why I asked that question, because I knew that this didn’t really seem like the right thing to die at this point. And yet, I wanted to go so bad. But yes, they did promise the by they said if you if you go back, you will go back healed. And you know, the cancer thing. I mean, that’s not insignificant. I honestly at the age of 59 I’ve been debating if I’d even do chemo, you know, that was pretty big decision. But to have my heart and soul healed, was massive. It was almost like it was so fast and so draconian. It was almost like a loving father shaking a child awake. It’s in the middle of a terrible nightmare. Wow. saying you were yelling. You’re screaming, but it’s just a dream. Wow. And the healing was that dramatic and it feels like a dream. Now it’s not like oh, my husband’s it. It’s crept back in a little bit. I still get sad when I hear about somebody else’s killed themselves or they lost. I’m sorry, they lose a husband or wife or child. I cry. But it’s not the grief that drags me out to see. Right? It’s not. It’s very different. But yes, it does feel like a father that shook me up shook me awake from a bad dream. It just feels it feels like another person had that experience. And you know, the Bible says we’re A new creation in Christ. I feel all different. I can all in fact, you know, my friend Milton who witnessed all this, he said, You need to tell him the other part of it, which is, you know, being a baby boomer loved rock and roll used to be in radio at the beginning, you know, million years ago, I did radio stuff and broadcasting. I had some high frequency hearing loss, and I had a busted shoulder and a busted knee. When it came back. All that was gone really well. My hearing was restored. My busted knee didn’t bother me much that I’d had shoulder pain for, gosh, 1314 years it was gone. And I even had arthritis in my wrist. And when I came back, that was gone as well. So my buddy says, You got rebooted by the Creator?

Brian Smith 40:45
Yeah, yeah. Wow. I love the way you put that, you know, being shaken out of a dream. I think that’s a really good analogy for for our life here. I hear that over and over again, that when you cross back, it’s like, that’s more real. And this feels like a dream. And I think we imagined it the other way around. We think about it, like that’s gonna be kind of dreamlike, and, you know, not really real. So it’s always great to hear someone talk about the the solidness of it, the reality of it, and the intensity, I guess of it.

Rosemary Ringer 41:13
I had the greatest as I said, I had the greatest mental clarity I have ever known. I just felt like, I felt like everything had been awakened again, I guess there’s, there’s that phrase again, but this I mean, his his death was. I’m an architectural historian by trade. And that house we lived in was my dream home. It was a beautiful house in a beautiful place. And so the losses, the ancillary losses, I mean, I lost all our friends. There’s a big difference between being friends with the big deal litigator and the author and being friends with this wash rag of a pathetic individual who can’t eat food anymore. So yeah, everything everything that was my former life got burned down. There was nothing left of life. But what I came back, I I realized my life had been pretty, pretty. A fraud really, I had not been happy. I’ve been pretending to be happy, hoping that if I pretended hard enough, I’d grow into it. Yeah. And that that wasn’t happening. And I had been praying Oh, my did I pray I read the Bible. I prayed every night. And I mean, I, I had affirmations taped all over my house trying to pull myself out of this pit.

Brian Smith 42:32
Yeah, you were fighting hard.

Rosemary Ringer 42:34
Oh, boy, it was I had evolutions in my car. I and I had one. But when I came back from this, I thought I need, I need to change some things. So I had one of the largest private collections of ephemera in my niche topic of architecture in the world. And I donated it to a college library, I started selling off all my worldly possessions one by one. And I sold off heirlooms, and then my family for a couple generations or more. And with each thing, though, you know, it was really cool with each thing. I thought, Wow, I’ve really enjoyed this item. And I would stand over and I would say a prayer. And I would, I would just say God, this this thing has been such a blessing. It has brought me so much joy. But now can you please bring the person that will bless for the next decade or lifetime? And then invariably, these things sold very, very quickly. And then my friend is kind of funny now. I had two friends say, Are you ready to kill yourself? Because you’re getting rid of everything. I said, No, no, no, no, no.

Brian Smith 43:38
That was the opposite.

Rosemary Ringer 43:39
I found peace. Because I learned and I, in my own heart. I knew that if I told anybody. You know, before all this happened, that I was thinking of ending my life, people would intervene. So I knew to keep my mouth shut. Yeah, I was gonna do this. And that’s again, I guess, because back to suicide prevention.

Brian Smith 44:01
And that’s a really great point that I really want to I want to bring out because a lot of people listening have had children. I have a lot of parents that listen, that children Krause students suicide, and one of the first things we want to do is blame ourselves. In your case, your husband actually said it was your fault, too. Did you take that guilt on?

Rosemary Ringer 44:21
terribly so? Yeah. Honestly, I think if one could quantify such things 50% of the pain was the suicide and also the violence with which he ended his life 50% was that I I figured he was right. And you know, it’s um, I moved to the Midwest I after I sold everything I sold my car sold my house bought a used Prius moved 1000 miles due west in a used free as a start a new life, but I had saved some things from my old life. You know, the kids paperwork and and, you know, they’re my life. was in boxes and that’s fine. There’s there’s trinkets and treasures that I had saved. I opened up one of these boxes, and it was a collection of some little goofy thing I had. And my first thought was my very first one. No wonder he killed himself. You bought all this crap. And then I was like, wow, we’re still talking about that. We’re still dealing with that. So yeah, that crept up out of somewhere. And I had to stop. I dropped the as in the middle, you know, opening up and unpacking I dropped it. And I went to a room and I call myself down. And I thought, No, no, no, no, no, no, that’s the old script. That’s the old rosemary. Those are the old lies. Yeah, that’s the old nightmare. There’s a lot. Yeah, that’s not true. So yeah, 50% of the pain was from the suicide. And I’d say 50% was, I’m empathic. I’m a mother. I’m prone to a lot of guilt anyway. Yeah, man, that boy that just did man,

Brian Smith 45:55
their fingers. You now know it from both sides. You know it from having experienced your husband taking his life, and you having this suicidal ideation. And you realize that if you really want to do this, there’s no one that’s going to stop you.

Rosemary Ringer 46:08
Right? Right. That’s the takeaway. And his leaving that note was, he had had a very successful career as an attorney. And I think it was a mechanism that made sense to him, that he wouldn’t be held. Guilty Bible came to the right word, it wouldn’t be his problem. It was me that did it. Yeah, it worked. Oh, boy, oh, boy, did it work. And in looking back, it was kind of nuts that I spent two and a half years in that community. Because I should have left immediately. But I didn’t have the wherewithal I didn’t have the spiritual resources is tough.

Brian Smith 46:50
Yeah. And grief takes everything out of you to begin with, and you complicate the grief with the guilt. And it just, it just drains you. You don’t have any energy to do anything.

Rosemary Ringer 47:00
It did. It did. In fact, even moving when I did my buddy Milton, that’s his name. He was a great blessing in helping me get out of one house. And and you know, it’s been two years at September 5 2018, that I went to have a wonderful experience. Yeah, it was great. But I haven’t missed anything. None of that stuff. I soul. haven’t missed it a bit. Yeah. And I it’s so funny. I thought, Oh, you may regret this. I mean, I sold the house, I sold the car, I saw that car was really nice. I sold, I and I live in a spare bedroom, which has been a real blessing for me. It was, it was actually a family member who had lost his wife. So he’s got a great big house. And I really like living simply. Yeah. And it’s also a smaller environmental footprint. I mean, this thing of everyone living in 5000 Square Feet is much

Brian Smith 47:57
yeah, you know, it’s really interesting. Whereas work or you know, when people have these experiences, there’s some there’s some commonalities that are not universal, but some commonalities they come back with and one of them is just, you lose your attachment to physical objects, you start giving things away selling things, living more simply because you realize what’s really important in life is not these big, complicated things that we do we make important so you you had a total I read this the other day, I forgot I was Debra diamond, it said she says it’s not like it’s you come back as a 2.0. You come back like as a 20.0.

Rosemary Ringer 48:29
It’s like a really good point.

Brian Smith 48:31
Yeah. Yeah. You just come back as a different person. you’d mentioned when you give me some some notes of beginning that Milton had an experience when you Yeah, you had your experience. So tell me about that.

Rosemary Ringer 48:43
This is so cool. And this is it’s funny what people latch on to. Oh, and one of the very briefly my backup, one of the things the angels told me was, and this was after I was in that hospital because I was on total bed rest for four days in the hospital, you know, make sure I didn’t die. Yeah. They said that the stuff Wayne had done in left behind in the messies. And all that the message they said it had been encapsulated. And I’m an architectural story in and that’s what you do with potential toxic contaminants you encapsulate because the removing them tends to stir up more dust or ruin particulate matter, like asbestos. The current accepted means for dealing with asbestos in a home or even commercial properties you wrap it up pretty much hermetically seal it and and that’s considered superior or more advantageous because in taking it down, you disturb it so much. It spreads everywhere. So the the fact that the angels used that word encapsulated, I thought, Oh my gosh, that’s great. They’re speaking my language. But they said everything had been encapsulated. And that it was a thing, and it was there. But it could not hurt me. It could not harm me anymore. And then I because I asked him a lot of questions. That’s the thing about suicide is it is a death like no other. And there’s so many questions, but he said, why didn’t one of the questions was? Oh, my goodness, there were so many. But where’s he now? And they said, none of your business. And I said, Wait, what I prayed for this man, I prayed for me three times a day, what do you mean, none of my business and they said, We were to work out our own salvation you’re not to work out is. And they said you did the things you were supposed to do. You prayed for him, you saw him surrounded by light and love every day, which was my practice life habit. So there were a lot of questions. And the beauty part of these questions was that before this, I had just been ruminating on these questions. How could he do this? I thought he loved me. Where is he now? What’s happened to them? What Why did he do this, I thought he loved me on and on and on and on and on. And this took me out of that circle. And as the Bible says, You’ve circled a mountain long enough time to time to stop and go north. This took me out of the circling. And so I stopped asking these questions because I had my answers. And it was such a blessing, but as Milton so. So after, they gave me this shot of dilaudid and the little er, and they all stuffed me. They walk out because the blood isn’t showing up anymore. And then so Milton stayed with me sees my blood pressure go 30 to over 25 and then sees me reach up to heaven, and then plot back down and then met the blood pressure goes to air He said it was about because he’s former military. He’s got some pretty good training. He said it’s about two minutes before the nurse show back up because I think I’m just sleeping. Okay, so when they come back in the room, they they fiddled with the cuff and then they filled with the electrical plug into the wall. They Oh, well, this thing stopped working. At the human stop working. Yeah, so but he did get ushered out into the room. They did a sternum rub, which I had not heard of before, but apparently swear nurse rakes their little knuckles right over your center of your chest. Yeah, clearly it’ll if there’s any life there, it’ll elicit some sort of pain response. So they did that. Pretty, pretty hard, pretty regular, you know, several times he said you didn’t, you didn’t flinch. So then they summon the doctor in and then they shove him out. They shoot him out into the hall, because now they realize they have an issue. So while he’s standing there, he said, he was thinking she’s dead. You know, for 29 months, I’ve tried to keep her alive. Because he my buddy Milton was one I found my husband’s body. Oh, so what a what a pair of messy bookends, you know, first the husband does this. And then the wife bleeds to death. So he’s out in the hallway right outside the room. And I tell people he was hit by the blast radius, which I think is actually true. And prior to this note and been a very proud, avowed, clear atheist, he actually subscribed to a magazine called American atheist and he would come in the mail. He very proudly show it to look good writing. No, you keep that to yourself. Yeah. So that’s notes background. And while he’s out in that hallway, he said an angel came to him and said, You don’t need to worry. We just need her for a few minutes. She’ll be right back.

Brian Smith 53:35
Wow.

Rosemary Ringer 53:37
And the thing was, he didn’t think to himself, wait a second, I don’t believe in angels. And he said it came with a feeling that somebody had wrapped a warm blanket of love and peace and joy around him. He said he just felt enveloped by his peace. And so he said it came with this feeling and with these words, and it changed him. And so after he hears this, he goes out to the lobby. He leaves the spot by the door goes out to the lobby and gets a soda. I said you What was it like I was in there for you know, blood workers, right? Yes. Yes. died. You saw it. You saw the whole thing as well. I was thirsty. Been a long day. Wow. So he went out there and then he had a soda. And he came back to the room. He came back and you know against it outside the hallway. And he said, Yeah, just waiting for you to come back. I knew you’d be what? So you know what’s interesting is after he said while he was standing there, four times the door to that small room open. And they emerged carrying linens literally soaked in blood. So the point is, I continue to believe men once they apparently removed that God, they saw how much I had continued. So it’s been two years for Milton, and he has Actually, it was just a few days after I was back home from the hospital and we were in my house and I was flopped out on my couch and Milton was there. His sister was there sitting in a chair opposite the couch. And Milton shares the story about the angel that came to him in the hallway. Really, we’re like, oh, yeah, we’re like, oh, do go on. Oh, wow. The very proud atheist is telling us about an angel visitation in a hospital and a feeling of being ensconced in in love and peace and joy. And he’s, he’s telling about, I said, so what did this do to your belief system? Yeah. And he said, It shattered every single thing I’ve ever believed, really. And his sister, who was sitting right there, she was very quiet, she leaned forward and choking back emotion. She said, Brother, I’ve been praying for you for 30 years that you would find out about God. So it was a pretty big deal. So now Milton, when he finds a Bible passage that he thinks is relevant to some challenge I’m having he’ll text it to me or me, copy it on the copier? To me, so yes, this has changed him I, you know, what, when I was still very close friends, and he, I will call him sometimes and say, help me remember something. And he, it’s amazing how this has changed him in the blink of an eye. And in the early days, I thought, why am I back? Why am I back? I didn’t want to come back. I still want to be there. So beautiful there. Why did I come back? And I think, Well, you know, maybe if the reason I came back was for Milton. That’s that’s a pretty big reason.

Brian Smith 56:42
Yeah. Yeah, I think there are probably multiple reasons why you came back. But it’s not it’s really that that’s really cool that collateral damage or collateral beauty of like you said, not getting hit by the blast radius. That’s a really, it’s close by. So we’re talking before we started recording, and I know some people said to you, and we were talking about a mutual friend of ours, also who had a near death experience, people are saying, you know, you’re being deceived. You’re deceiving people. You’re being deceived. But you’re out. Why are you telling you telling people these stories, and I’ve heard you refer to the Bible over and over again. So I’m gonna assume that you are a religious person that believes in God and believe in the Bible. So what is the deal with these people that think that you’re being deceived? What do you think about that?

Rosemary Ringer 57:29
I have, I just started sharing this story a couple years. Well, it’s been two years since I started sharing about a year ago, right? Immediately, immediately that you were in hell, there’s were demons on the other side of the door. It’s good. You came back and get a second chance at salvation. I’m like, I think that was L. I don’t think those were demons. I don’t think I think there was something in the Bible about the disciples, the disciples were told to put down their fishing net. So everything they have in the follow Christ, I thought I, I’m not trying to accumulate more stuff. I my goal. And my my big goal is to share this, you know, gospel means good news. And I think this is good news. And I know it encourages a lot of people. So those people because there’s two, there’s the atheist who say, it’s, oh, it’s the brain shutting down. Okay, then you want to talk about the stage two cancer, that has advanced to a point that it has distorted the flesh, that’s just simply gone. We’ll talk about that. How does that happen? Why don’t tell me about that one. Because they say we and then you know, I met a neuro oh my goodness, what are they called neuros neuro psychologist or something. She She her background is in neurology and psychology. And there’s a fancy word that eludes me right now. She actually took a detour from Iowa to come meet me here in southwestern Illinois, because she said, I said, the most compelling part of these nd stories is not the bright light and the encounter with spiritual beings. She said the fact when people come back from these, they’ve changed their entire life. Exactly. So I want it I want to hear what you did. And I told her and she said the most believable part of your story to me is these changes take a human being years decades or perhaps nap and a lifetime to make these substantive changes. And she said, you were you were completely changed from the DNA up. Yeah. And I do agree with that everything I my gosh, we’re somewhere driving yesterday. And I saw I think it was just the sun setting. And I burst into tears. I thought it’s so beautiful. It’s just also beautiful. And that’s that’s a brave new world for me. That’s it. So I don’t know I there’s a story of Annabel beam if you ever heard of her? I don’t think so. No, little kid I think she was 10 fell into a cottonwood hollow cottonwood tree. And she had had a life threatening illness when this fall took place. And while there the angels came, Jesus appeared to her said you’re going to be okay. And they took her to heaven and gave her a nice little tour and it took him five hours to rescue this kid out of this hollowed out rotted tree. branch or something.

Brian Smith 1:00:10
Yeah, I wasn’t sorry. Yeah.

Rosemary Ringer 1:00:12
When she came Annabel beam when she came back, she was healed. She talked about heaven and the angels and seeing Jesus but she was also healed of this life threatening disease instantaneously. And her mother was frustrated that people weren’t believing the story. They thought that some part of it was contrived or made up and Annabel told her mother, she said, It’s okay, mom, there’ll be a day when they believe. Yeah, I understand

Brian Smith 1:00:36
where I’m at. It’ll come for all of us at some point, but I think it’s a, I think it’s fascinating. I would like to touch on we’ve got the materialist atheist that says, this is all fake. And then we’ve got the religious people that say, well, it’s all deceit. And I’m like, okay, so Satan, when he deceives, us is going to tell us, I want you to spread a message of love, peace, joy, hope, generosity. I want you to go out and live a better life. And then when you come here, I’m going to put you in hell.

Rosemary Ringer 1:01:06
Really good. Yeah. thought of it like that.

Brian Smith 1:01:09
Yeah, I’m like it to me. It’s like, okay, you know, the Bible says, you know, you judge a tree by its fruits. So what are people? What are people that have indies do? What when they come back? Are they you know, are they out trying to make a lot of money? Are they trying to accumulate more things? Now? What are they actually doing? What’s the message that they’re spreading? And it’s spreading the same message Jesus spread? So yeah, it’s just, it’s really interesting to me how people on both ends of the spectrum say, it’s all crazy, but I really appreciate you sharing it. And I know you’re working on a book to tell your story, right? Yes,

Rosemary Ringer 1:01:41
I am. And when this first happened, I declared boldly and repeatedly as the author of nine books, which have taken years to write, and they’re about historic architecture and require a lot of research. Writing is not a fun thing. And this boy talks about a different genre, the historic architecture to having had haven’t seen heaven. So in the beginning, I declared I would not write a book. And then after I started giving a few talks, people said, Please write a book. And then I had a YouTube video that somebody recorded at, actually, Roberta Moore recorded at an ions conference. And that little little bit of YouTube video has had 46,000 hits, which shocked me in the comments. There are days I wonder, what what am I doing here? I want to be there. I don’t want to be here. But reading those comments are a great blessing. And the, I’d say a lot of them are from people who’ve lost somebody to suicide. And if there is one message I have for the world, if you lose someone to suicide, there’s nothing you could have done to make it happen. There’s nothing you could have done to stop it. Yeah, when they get to that point, you are just not that powerful. You just don’t have that bigger presence in their mind in their heart. So he has a lot of people, his parents also have somebody who have a child has ended their life. And they also want to know, where’s my child? What are they experiencing? Are they in hell? And that’s probably my most frequently asked question is do suicides go to hell. And in my opinion, I believe it’s known it’s documented. Roughly 90% of suicides are mental illness related 10% are either criminal nature or revenge related. In other words, I’ll get you you know, you took away my kids or you took away this or that I’ll, I’ll show you, this will finish you off. And then some or you know, somebody gets caught doing something bad, and they don’t want to pay the consequences. So my point is 90% of suicides are connected to mental illness. When somebody has a heart attack. We don’t say Wow, look at the wife did just probably just giving him too much butter at dinner. Right. But a brain attack. I don’t see a big difference between your brain going bad. Your heart going bad. I really don’t. So suicides go to heaven. Yeah, I, I think I do think they maybe spend more time in the White Room Seriously? I don’t know.

Brian Smith 1:03:55
Yeah, I’ve heard some mediums talk about and this is kind of kind of a controversial too, because some people say as soon as we cross over, all of our burdens are gone. And we’re right back to where we were. But I’ve heard several mediums say there’s there’s like a hospital like setting or there may be some sort of counseling or something to to get that person, you know, back in the right frame of mind. And you know, these things might be metaphor. So you saw a white room with this mist. That was a healing type of thing. When we’ve been in that state for so long in this body. We’ve got to kind of wash that stuff away. I think it’s a really great metaphor.

Rosemary Ringer 1:04:28
Yes, and suicide is just so damaging. I one of my dreams, and it’s a big dream is so typical of suicide, that even law enforcement looks to the spouse, and it’s not uncommon for the spouse to become the lead suspect in what they consider a murder invest a homicide investigation when something turns up dead, even suicide. And I was questioned by the cops and fortunately it was brief and I was by phone They asked me this specific words, they called me on the phone because I was trying to get home from Boston, we lived in Virginia. And the cops called me and said, we need to know the nature of your last argument with him. And I said, I just got a call that my husband blew out his brains, I do not feel that this is an appropriate time. And I do not feel this is an appropriate question. I’m kind of amazed, given all the circumstances, I had the wherewithal to do that. But if I could wave a magic wand, I would create an organization, organization or foundation or something that would provide advocacy and victim assistance to women who’ve just found their husbands hanging in a garage, or drowned in the backyard or whatever. Because it is, you know, it was only what, 50 years ago, that when a woman was raped, the question was, what were you wearing? What were you? What were you doing? Did you say something to him? And we’re still doing that with suicides. We need to have some kind of advocacy program in place when a woman is sat down, when she just finds out her husband did this. And question by the police. Where were you when this happened? Do you own a gun? Why are you even talking about before he did this? That is wildly inappropriate, wildly. So I wish I wish there was a way to solve that problem.

Brian Smith 1:06:13
Yeah, I think I think you make an excellent point. And I think in a broader point, we talked to this, I think before we started recording, you know, the however we crossover However, if whether it’s suicide, or murder, or heart attack, or cancer or whatever, we’re all going to go home at some point. And we take these certain things, especially suicide, and we type stigma to them, to the person who actually committed they’re who did the act of killing themselves. And also to the family, you know, a lot of times whether it’s a parent or a spouse or whatever, what did what did, you know, surely there was some signs, something that you’ve missed, something that you should have done, and people might not say it in those words, but that’s kind of the the underlying tone I think a lot of people have. And so I think when you’re telling a story is so important to tell people, it’s not your fault, it’s not your fault, it’s what someone else does is never your fault.

Rosemary Ringer 1:07:05
It isn’t. And I, as I mentioned, I can remember, we talked about this before or after we started recording, but I did go to one suicide support group, and it was primarily parents, but I there was one woman a little older than me. And she said to the group, my son would still be alive if he hadn’t marry that woman. And I was like, Alright, we’re done. I’m not gonna listen to this anymore. And I get it part of it. You know, part of it is with people who have not experienced trauma, because my husband’s visitation after he did this was closed casket. And yet, they had the casket behind us. And then we have people walk up towards you, and give their condolences. When you see the couples as they approach the casket, squeeze each other a little tighter, hold each other a little closer. And then they say, and this is one of those things that you should never say to a widow of any kind. They say, if anything happened to Robbie, I just lay down and yes, and you think oh, so I didn’t love them as much as you love your husband. Yes, thanks. Got it. But and also people ask, didn’t leave a note. And the thing was that I realized that we want to figure this out. They’re trying to make sure that this level of horror never infiltrates their life. They want to figure out okay, she screwed up, but I’m not gonna let that happen in my life. Exactly. It’s that makes me angry. Yes. But that’s very common.

Brian Smith 1:08:30
It is very common. And I and I find that awesome when children pass by any means people what they what they ask all these questions, because they want to insulate themselves from it, they want to make sure well, this would never happen to my child. And this will never happen to me, because it’s only happens to other people until it doesn’t, you know, it could it can happen to any of us. And I think it’s very important that that people like yourself that have experiences, speak out and say okay, don’t say these things to people. This is not helpful. You think you’re being helpful when people say the same thing? Yeah. Well, if my child ever, you know, passed or my child died, I couldn’t go on I couldn’t live and you know, I felt that way. I mean, I think we all do but we all have to do but we have to do to get to get through and we have a reason for being here. And so it doesn’t help when someone tells you that it’s that’s not helpful at all.

Rosemary Ringer 1:09:19
And people until people I’ve learned this to until somebody has gone through this kind of trauma. They are clueless you cannot realize what this does to your brain. Yeah, I always put great stock and the fact that I consider myself really smart and after this it was more like I had had a stroke I lost the ability to read I for a couple months I couldn’t even drive I had to have a fun drive me

Brian Smith 1:09:41
It damages you brain.

Rosemary Ringer 1:09:43
It does and I remember a year out a year out my as I mentioned my buddy Milton was living cheering that rental home with me one for finances helps a lot to have a roommate, but I decided okay, it’s been a year to try to cook and I grabbed a mix, a cake Bok mix and I thought okay, this is It’s pretty simple. And I read the ingredients. And I think it was like two eggs and some oil and some water and something else and I couldn’t grasp it. I couldn’t read a recipe. And I got so angry and then frustrated, I cry, and I handed it to him. And I said, it’s telling me to do something, but I can’t figure this out. It doesn’t make sense helped me. And he took over and he did it. I’ve written nine books, and I couldn’t read the recipe on the back of a cake mix. That’s what trauma does to your brain. So these peoples that will pull you up by yours, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and focus on the good and all this other stuff. They are clueless.

Brian Smith 1:10:39
Yeah, it takes everything out of you. And but the other thing is amazing is how resilient the human spirit is. And people say, Well, I could never do it. And I’m like, you can you could, you just don’t know it, because you haven’t been put in that position yet. But humans, we find a way to get through. And as long as we have hope of we’ll know we’ll find a way. So I appreciate you really saying that, because it’s a very common thing. You know, we go through these these traumas, and people don’t realize, you know, how it just drains everything out of you.

Rosemary Ringer 1:11:09
It does and people have often said, Oh, you’re strong. And I say, I consider that a foul word. I say do not call me strong. Tech. resilient is the word I allow. I am not strong. I did not want this. I everyday I thank God for this man. Every day I knew. I just I don’t know, every day I knew that he was I thought he was the man for whom I had prayed for years. Yeah, so not strong. resilient. Yes.

Brian Smith 1:11:36
Yeah, exactly. Well, we’ve within about an hour. So I really appreciate you doing this. For us. It’s been it’s been a pleasure talking to you. Again, I think your your, your what you’ve been through is going to help so many people, I can’t wait to the book comes out. Maybe you’ll come back, we can do another interview then. Thank you very much. Anything you want to say before we close the day?

Rosemary Ringer 1:12:00
Just that has really the question, just that if you if you find somebody suffering from the loss of a child or spouse to suicide, the best thing you can do is show up and shut up. Do not tell about your uncles, brothers, fathers cousin son who killed themselves and you know just what they’re going through. Don’t liken it to anything in your experience, because suicide is a death like no other. So yeah, that is the advice I would share a show up and shut up hug one older model sob. I used to do something my daughter called the pterodactyl screen. In the early days. I would just sit on the couch and screen, huh? Yeah. And people think your baby’s occupied. Stop, stop, stop. You’re upsetting the dog.

Brian Smith 1:12:45
Yeah, you got to let it out. Got to feel all those feelings. Thanks, guys. It’s been it’s been great talking to you. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Rosemary Ringer 1:12:52
Thank you very much.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

 

Roland Achenjang is a fascinating young man I met a few weeks ago. Right away I knew I had met a kindred spirit. Roland is a Pharmacist, and has an MBA. But, when something about his life didnt’ feel quite right, Roland gave up on finding happiness through career, religion, or other means and turned within.

In the first part of this two-part interview, Roland and I discuss how he came to the dark night of the soul that sent him on his spiritual quest. In part two, we will discuss what he discovered.

 

To reach Roland, visit: https://www.rolandachenjang.com

 

Transcript

Brian Smith 0:00
Close your eyes and imagine what are the things in life that causes the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we’ve been buried. But what if like a seed we’ve been planted, and having been planted, who grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes, open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is brief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. Hey, everybody, this is Brian back with another episode of preacher growth. And I’ve got with me today Roland and changing and Roland is a young man, I just a couple of weeks ago, I was totally fascinated and talking to him about his background about the book that he’s written. And so this is gonna probably a pretty be a pretty extensive episode. So I’ll probably break it up into parts, we’ll just have to see how it goes. What I want to do is just give you a short introduction role and and then I’ll talk for himself. His bio they presented to me says in 2014, he was struggling to manage the stress brought on by his attempts to meet his responsibilities. So as a last ditch effort to coach he made the conscious decision to look with that or to look in the one place it never looked before, which is within which a lot of us don’t think about doing. And Rohan developed his own meditation practices as self taught meditator. Roland is also a pharmacist. He’s an MBA said he’s quite an accomplished young man. He’s got his own podcast, which is called look at my notes or conversations with Roland I believes that right. So it’s called conversations with Roland, again, fascinate young man, I don’t want to spend a lot of time introducing him. Let him speak for himself. So I want to welcome Roland to Greta growth.

Roland Achenjang 1:59
Thank you. Thank you, Brian. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. That was a pretty sweet introduction to thank you.

Brian Smith 2:04
Yeah, I like I said, you know, meeting you a couple weeks ago, we just had a conversation, I felt like a kindred spirit, we headed off kind of right away, we were introduced by a mutual friend. So what I want to do today, or at least to begin with, I want to start talking about you and your experience. And we could start in 2014 if that’s what you’d like to start or start wherever you want. Just tell me about yourself.

Roland Achenjang 2:26
Um, we thought it might be better if we go a little bit beyond or before 2014 just set a background. I mean, 2014 was 2013 2014 pretty amazing, amazing time in my life. But I am originally from West Africa, in a country called Cameroon is where I was born and raised. I lived there with my family until I was 14 years old. And that’s when we are relocated to the United States. That in itself was a pretty life altering experience. Right when it happened, I would say I was I was still pretty young and just excited to be leaving camera and to be moving to the united states that the culture shock didn’t really hit me until a couple years later, after I had settled in a little bit into the US culture and then started to compare and sort of contrast the differences. Right. And then following that, you know, there are just so many stories that we can talk about, but life continued to happen for me as it does for just about every other being that’s experiencing life on Earth. I went through ups and downs, I had, you know, many things to celebrate in my life as well as many things that I thought didn’t make sense. One way I put it is my rational mind was beginning to fail me. My beliefs were getting challenged left and right. More so just because you know, a lot of that foundational beliefs I had were molded in within the Cameroonian culture, right? Come to the United States a whole different ballgame. Trying to make sense of of all of it. And, and the challenges didn’t stop at the same light. I did well, I mean, I went to school, graduated, went to college, and then got my farm D degree in 2010. And then working in a couple of hospitals. And by 2013, I was in Nashville, Tennessee, and that’s where I was working. And this was shortly after the Affordable Care Act had been passed. And so you know, in my, in my genius at the time, I thought and you know, I’ve been working as a pharmacist for two years, three years. And again, I was getting all this you know, the metaphor the check engine lights kept coming on, right? Something is off. Yes. Something doesn’t make sense. The real world is adding up and So I thought maybe if I go get a business degree for, you know, for, for many reasons that would that would help sort of get rid of this check engine lights then that kept coming up. And so I decided to enroll in business school and I was working full time as a pharmacist and going to business school and beautiful school Belmont University down in Nashville, Tennessee, during that time is when things got really really, you know, stressful, I could not ignore, quote unquote, the check engine light anymore, I really couldn’t ignore it. And I had to find a way to cope. When I picked up a practice, I call it meditating. Now at the time, I didn’t even know what I was doing. I just I just given up on, on trying to make sense of life, using my rational mind using my analytical mind using my scientific mind using my religious upbringing mind. And, and I just thought I, I’m just going to, quote, literally go lay in my bed, one day after work, listen to my body, write everything about my body, everything about my being, my thinking, how my toes feel, just listen to my body, and and then hear what he has to tell me. I mean, just literally out of frustration, I decided that on a whim. And then did some research about meditating. Some things turned me off on the different meditative practices that we can get into in this conversation or another one. But then that was it. And I said, like it was, you know, just not easy going after that very interesting experiences began to happen. And life moved on. One thing led to another, usually the word in the spiritual community is synchronicities, then, you know, you just can’t plan for

and then ended up four years later developing this meditative practice that I, I was disciplined enough to maintain daily, averaging about two hours a day. And on the fateful Tuesday morning of August 21 2018, had a fool had a spiritual awakening, spiritual transformative experience, most people would refer to this as a Kundalini awakening in the Christian sense, if I’m, you know, using my own interpretations and understanding of those teachings is receiving the Holy Spirit in a very profound way. Or getting in touch with the intelligence that is that is the source from which our creation comes interacting with that intelligence. And then remembering all these facets and fascinating things about who I am, which is basically a universal understanding of why you are as well, Brian, and everyone who’s listening. And it, it really helped me at that point. Put a check on the engine light as in, Oh, my goodness. Now everything sort of makes sense in a way that I could not have previously understood. Not having had a spiritual awakening. Mm hmm. And yeah, then following that, I wrote my book, which is another funny story. I published that in a year after that fateful Tuesday morning. And then again, things just continued to build from there. ended up learning different energy healing practices, a lot of it was building up on the practices that I was doing to myself, while meditating. These are things I this is all self taught. And, and then I thought, well, you know, given all the lessons I’ve learned, I have to start living them out. And so the podcast came about, and then connections, and now I am here talking with you, Brian.

Brian Smith 9:18
Yeah. Well, let me let me ask you a few questions. So you mentioned you know, you came from from Cameroon. You were like 14 years old. So and then you go through school and everything sounds like you were very successful as we would use the terms you graduated with the farm D which is not an easy thing to do. But something was kind of off. You know, when what you had was, I think it was a cold dark night of the soul. So what type of things are off? What was what was creating the check engine light for you?

Roland Achenjang 9:46
That’s a great question. I love it. So many things. And I’ll tell you, I’ll tell you one story to just try to paint a picture of what I mean by my check engine lights kept coming on. So growing up in Cameroon, I was raised in the Catholic faith. And I started doctoring classes when I was eight years old, for instance, right. And we learned everything we, our teachers taught us about Jesus Christ, a lot of Christian upbringing, stories in the Bible to help guide you, and help you build sort of a moral corn on which you would then use to develop your your life your life through.

But amongst those stories, where,

you know, there was this, this aspect of Jesus Christ, his life and his birth, specifically, that I had never ever heard otherwise, that he was the only son of Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph was sort of his stepfather or his father, essentially. Right. And, and Jesus Christ was the Savior. And you know, the whole, I mean, most of us know this story. Mm hmm. So this was my upbringing, up until I was 14. Fast forward, the spring of 2001. I am in platteville, Wisconsin, my uncle’s house, watching the History Channel. So this was right around Easter Easter break. And on the History Channel, there’s a documentary about the life of Jesus Christ. And this is a being who an individual who I like just like, the entire world, I’m super fascinated by like, why what was so special about him, etc. I mean, he did so many things, so many miraculous things, an amazing teacher. And I’m enamored by this documentary. So I’m really, you know, caught up in it, watching the stories. And a lot of it is building on the foundation of the stories that I had been exposed to growing up in Cameron. Now, another interesting aspect about this is growing up back home, we I did not have the luxury to watch reenactments of the stories of Jesus Christ, a lot of it was what I was either reading or being taught by a teacher, right? Just Uh, yeah. And we know the power of pictures, especially moving moving pictures as in as in documentaries and reenactments.

Brian Smith 12:33
Yeah.

Roland Achenjang 12:35
Now, in the middle of all of this, I’m fully engrossed. I hear the narrator mentioned that Jesus Christ had brothers and sisters, who were born of Mary and Joseph. Now to your listeners, maybe even to you that sounds Oh, yeah, of course he did. It’s in the Bible. It’s here and there. To me, in that moment, right 2001 that was earth shattering for me. If I can channel in, you know, Steven a Smith, the blast for me, that I heard out of this narrator was earth shattering. Hmm. I stopped in my tracks. I couldn’t pay attention anymore. And I in my, you know, genius as a 15 year old, less than one year in the United States, was enamored on contacting the History Channel to tell them stop spreading this bs lie. Why are you indoctrinating the American people with this bs lies? Jesus did not have siblings. He was the only son of Mary conceived of the Holy Spirit. How dare you? Right? I mean, the blasphemy. Hmm. And so in my frustration, and not being able to make sense of this, I turned the TV off in the middle of this and walk away, now was done with it. And that’s an example of a first, you know, one of many examples, essentially, of when my check engine light came on. Hmm. My foundational beliefs were seriously challenged. Yeah. What do you mean, Jesus had siblings? I have never heard that for 15 years on this planet. And those, those are the kind of things I mean, my rational mind was failing me. And over time, I would have experiences like that and just wash them on the rug or find another sort of justification or come up with some reasoning to help me feel centered Yeah. But as those as those began to grow and add on and add on it came I mean, it came to literally had I had to make a decision I add a continue to live this sort of life that doesn’t make sense and just navigate through this fog and then hope that something happens or make sense of the fog.

Brian Smith 14:59
Yeah. You know, it’s interesting, you tell that because I can relate so much to it, I was raised as a Pentecostal and was raised with a very fundamental, literal interpretation of the Bible. And I remember when I was a young man, I was in my 20s, or 30s, I guess. And I started hearing people push back against the creation story. And I always thought it was literal. And I was like, how am I gonna make sense of this, and I actually, you know, the young earth, the young, the Creation Museum is down in Kentucky is which is close to you. And and by both your local or your local, I’m in Cincinnati, there’s Creation Museum near here, and this guy, Ken Ham, they put together this this argument to say that that creation was real. And I’m a, I’m a chemical engineer by trade. So my background is like, I’m a rational person. And I’m like, yeah, it’s real. So I get into it, and I’m reading all this stuff. And then I read the other side. And then I remember reading a book about this guy was taking the Bible and not taking it literally Genesis, but saying that it was a period of seven light ages or something, and explaining how we could have both creationism, and this kind of old Earth Theory, I was sitting on my deck. And I remember I looked at my eyes looked out, and like the whole world just suddenly look different. It’s like, I suddenly understood, you know, how God got, quote, created this thing. And it just, it blew my mind. So I’m just relating to the experiences that you went through, because I had a series of those, and it creates a crisis, right? It’s like, well, what else do I believe is not real?

Roland Achenjang 16:26
Exactly. Who else is playing games with me and telling me, you know, stories or tales literally tells? And what am I supposed to do with those tales? And then you start going into, you know, this conversations in your mind of what’s right, what’s wrong. And then it hits a hits a bigger head, like me, I was just in in health care. Oh, my goodness, just so many check engine lights are coming on. And we do amazing things in the healthcare industry, right, as pharmacists, as medical doctors, nurses, respiratory therapists, radiologists, etc, we do so many amazing things. But I’ve always also been, you know, deeply philosophical without actually knowing this, I never took any philosophy classes in school, to be honest. And it was only in asking this, this, this questions and trying to make sense of my Earth life experience, that I, you know, realized that I had this lie to me. And in talking to a priest One day, he was actually the first person to call me that where I was, I don’t want to say debating, but I was I was trying to paint a picture of, of how, you know, I didn’t, I didn’t I grew up not believing that Jesus Christ had siblings. And he, his answer was very straightforward to me. He goes, Well, you should have just read the Bible. And it seems so obvious, right? Just read the Bible. But then again, are you telling me all these people who were teaching me this and teaching all of us this didn’t read the Bible? And, and then you’ll get to this nuances of? Well, they did read the Bible. And, and then, you know, everyone starts coming up with justifications of, Okay, well, Catholics read the Bible, but they don’t study. And everyone’s coming up with these reasons for why I never learned that Jesus Christ had siblings. And, and I thought, well, what you’re each demonstrating is basically what I’ve come to learn is that amongst many things, we are a product of our environment. Yeah. And and those environments are as diverse as we are. And even beyond that, if you look at your environment, there’s still many outcomes to how people perceive reality, even though they came from the same environment and the same teachings that you had. And I started to now go back into those and question, and then those were the kind of things that led me to saying, but wait a minute, wait a minute. And it was a little ego. It was a little bit egotistical, but it was seriously, how can I make sense of this reality? If I continue to let other people tell me what it is?

Brian Smith 19:22
Yeah, you know, it’s, that’s a really good point. And the Bible, I think, is a great, it’s kind of a Rorschach test, we see what we want to see, we see we look at and for me, you know, when I started coming out of some of the teachings like eternal hell, and, and Jesus is the only way to be saved and all that stuff. And I was told that that’s the way it reads. And then I started talking to some other people who read the same Bible and said, but now we see it totally different, that you know, everybody is safe, and there’s no eternal hell and you know, now that and I’m like, Well, wait, it’s the same book, but we’re all reading it different ways. And we’re all getting different things out of it. So, you know, I think it’s interesting that we come to this. I think it’s common story we come to, like I said, a dark night of the soul, we all come to it differently. And it’s all manifested differently. But we come to a point where it’s like, it’s just not working anymore. So what made you decide the thing to turn within? Because a lot of times at that point people will go, Well, how can I find you tell me the truth, but you decide to turn within?

Roland Achenjang 20:20
Yes, another great question, Brian. And, again, with me at that point, I had reached a space in my life where I had experienced quite a bit already. Right, I was a practicing pharmacist. So I knew that, at least from a scientific background specific to the practice of, of medicine, and in my field. No, nobody was really going to tell me I mean, I was talking to pharmacists all the time. And many of them weren’t even interested in the kind of questions I was asking, right. And so I just knew that. At that point, I couldn’t find another colleague, to talk about this with, you know, I’ll even share an example of a story. There’s one evening I’m working with a colleague, and this patient gets admitted in the ER, R, and they have elevated liver enzymes. And so the doctors do the workup, the, you know, the order the labs, and then they admit the patient to the hospital. And I’m following the patient through from the ER to admissions on the floor. And I’m looking at the treatment plan for this patient. And the medications that, you know, we intend to give this patient. And what I find out or what I realized quickly is, even though I’m not saying that this is what happens with everyone, I have to preface preface that with this, but is we weren’t really treating the underlying elevated liver enzymes. In this case, we admitted this patient to the hospital and gave him a room to basically rest. Because every medication we gave him was what we call comfort meds, which are usually things like Tylenol as needed for pain. So you’re not really going to get the Tylenol unless you’re complaining about pain, medications for constipation, as needed, everything was as needed. And then IV fluids which is literally rehydrating you, right. And that’s what we gave this patient and I and I’m looking at this and it suddenly dawned on me that for for this patient in particular, in particular, we were basically giving them a place to rest or quote unquote, meditate and sort of get rid of maybe life’s challenges, that would be causing them additional stress, and then making it difficult for this body or their body’s autonomic regulatory system to kick in. And then and then fix the underlying issue. And I look over at my pharmacist and I go, Hey, man, are you looking at this? Like, we’re literally giving this person a place to rest? Mm hmm. Which to me sounded a little bit like, oh, meditate, right? And that those are the kinds of things I was seeing. Um, and then the another reason why I decided to go within again, was was basically that the answers the answers I was looking for, were it in pharmacy, weren’t in health care, weren’t in religion. Because again, I was raised Catholic, but I came to the United States and my Catholic upbringing in Cameroon was different, right? There were different interpretations in the same faith. And then I started to learn about so many other religions, Muslims, right Hindu in Scientology, and then old religions, Greek mythology, Egyptians, etc. And you begin to see this underlying stories that are the same. There’s a story of creation, there’s always a battle. There’s a fall of man, somehow there’s a redeemer that comes in there changes to the stories. The more I began to learn about this different aspects of religious teachings, them I began to see the similarities and how they had differentiated from each other. And then also how they were very, very dependent on the times and the cultures in which they were being spread, right. So I was seeing how the Catholic Church was changing over time, for instance, and I thought, isn’t this sort of like, maybe political in a way? But the one big thing was this, Brian, it was, well, if the founders of these religious practices, right, the founders upon which a lot of these religious practices are based, where souls who were born on this planet What is it that they did? What is it that they had available to them that I currently have today?

And, and amongst everything, it wasn’t the actual religion for one, right? It wasn’t current technology, technological practices that we, you know, we we experienced, so we get involved in, it wasn’t healthcare the way we currently practice. It was their physical bodies, their ability to breathe and their ability to think. And I thought there’s something there. And, and I looked around, and I saw that everybody had a physical body, their ability to breathe and the ability to think. And lo and behold, I had one too. Yeah. And so I, I said, Well, this is the one place I have never looked. I’ve never just paid attention to my body unless it was hurt, unless I had a cold or something. And I thought, what if I just consciously did this? And mind you? There. Many people had meditative practices, transcendental meditation, Kriya, Kundalini, but I was also turned off by those in a way just because I, in my, in my own judgment, and perceptions, I started to see similarities in those practices, and then other, at least in my mind, Catholic upbringing. Mm hmm. And I’ll give you an example. So mantras for instance, I said, what those sound like prayers, you’re repeating things after a while. You’re just saying them you’re kind of lost in them. You don’t even know what they mean. So I said, Okay, I don’t want any mantras. mala beads, they’re like you can you can meditate with mala beads. Looks like that’s, that looks like a rosary to me. Yeah. beads. You’re saying prayers. You may be ordering mantras at the same time. And, and so I said, Okay, no, I’m just going to go with with what I came to this planet with. That was naked, Roland. I mean, I had clothes on when I wasn’t. Yeah, but I mean, just my physical body. Yeah.

Brian Smith 27:11
Yeah, I think that’s really interesting, Roland, because I, you know, as I went through my journey, you know, we were I was taught, you know, trust your teachers trust the Bible. Trust that, you know, and and I went through kind of the same thing. So I started going out is to look at different ways of interpret the Bible, start reading books and stuff. And I think it takes a lot for us to start really trusting ourselves, especially with that, that indoctrination. We’re kids, and if you got this, but I was told that the hardest evil that the heart is wicked, and you can’t trust your own, your own instincts, you know, you’ve got to, you’ve got to read the Bible to understand what, what’s really real. But things start to open up and like you said, you start to look at, because for me, I looked at meditation, and my background was like, okay, meditation is bad. That’s, that’s evil. So I found this thing called contemplative prayer. And so I’m reading books about contemplative prayer. And I’m like, this is just meditation, you know, you read a verse, or you say it over and over again, or the mala beads are the same as the rosary beads. So I think we come to the conclusion, it’s like, well, it’s all kind of the same thing. So when you started your meditation practice, you said you didn’t call it meditation? You just, you just called it? What? Did you have a label for it?

Roland Achenjang 28:20
No, I didn’t. Okay. I mean, the best thing I would say is, I was spending time with myself as much as I could. Because, you know, you do touch on a lot of good points, too, Brian, you talk about reading all the books, and started reading a little bit. And one of the first books I read, that was really great for me was the age of reason, by Thomas Paine. Mm hmm. And in that book, he basically, he this basically, lets the reader, you know, look at the other side of the stories in the Bible, or like, religious teachings. And I thought it was fascinating. And one of the things he pointed out was, how much power we sort of give a creation of source in the sense that, right we have this, this fallen angel, who is now quote, unquote, the devil or Satan, and we fear him just as much as we feared a source and and he was saying, but if, if this being is the creation of the source, how did he get to be so big that we are basically enabling empowering and fearing this thing so much? That you know, it’s it’s basically the, the biggest message in a lot of religious teachings is there’s this being that is so bad. The Creator doesn’t want to get rid of it, but it’s so bad. The only way to get rid of it is if you come to us, and we’ll help you and we’ll show you how we teach you how, and those. So in reading, those are the kind of things that made me think and and then I also begin to began to wonder, but how did he get at this conclusion? Who did he talk to? Right? And that was just spending time I would imagine with himself and thinking and analyzing and trying to make trying to make sense of reality. And another piece to was, again, the check engine lights didn’t stop. And I would do things Brian, consciously that I knew were based off of my upbringing and conditioning, the right things to do expect him to experience similar right things. And I would not, I would experience the total opposite. And so I thought, well, something’s off. And then I would do things consciously that were the wrong things to do sometimes, because it benefited me in a selfish way. Hmm. And it would turn out, okay. And then there were times when I could care less. And I would experience the outcome of both both like a good outcome and a bad outcome. And so it was just all confusing. Even more, so if you look at the background from which I came, I came from a country that, for lack of better words, is literally a third world country under developed, it has a lot of potential that’s not been tapped into. Right. And I come to this country where it’s so developed, the problems we’re facing here, don’t even resonate with what I would say not that we what I would say, with the problems that my fellow Cameroonians are facing back home. Hmm. or in any other, you know, like third world country, for instance. I mean, I’m working in the hospital, for instance, and we’re getting mad and was saying things like, the interoperability of our electronic medical records suck. I can’t share my data with with another hospital because we’re not on the same electronic medical records. Well, I go back home to Cameroon bride, and it’s like, okay, we don’t have roads. We don’t have what is no running water. You’re getting up in the morning to go to the stream to carry water to come back? You’re, I mean, it’s just a different world.

Brian Smith 32:15
Yeah. Yeah. First of all problems. Yeah.

Roland Achenjang 32:18
Yeah. But it’s on the same planet. And if you put just several I mean, as much as you can, if you put yourself in my shoes, it’s like, how can this same planet where we are currently experiencing life? have this much diversity in experience? And then, and then you couple all of that with your own personal experience and how you’re contributing to all of it. The guilt you might feel, because Catholic teachings are really good at making you feel guilty, right? The guilt I felt of, Okay, I’m in America. Why should I be complaining about this? When I go back to Cameroon? I mean, you’re like, whoa, whoa, you’re it’s a different place. different experiences, different problems, and then your your own problems? No one you try to complain when you’re back home, people just think you’re ungrateful. Yeah. But those are the kind of things that led me to say, Okay, if there is a source of creation that we’re all seeking, and if they are these myriad ways that we’re all experiencing life on Earth, how do we reconcile both? And, and that’s why I said, No one is nothing is helping me reconcile both reconcile the pain, reconcile the suffering, reconcile the differences, reconcile the, you know, that, for lack of a better word, the shenanigans It doesn’t make sense.

Unknown Speaker 33:48
Yeah.

Roland Achenjang 33:50
And, in that was, that was my, that that was annoying. Again, many of the reasons why I decided, ah, so there’s, there’s something here that we’re missing, where is it? What are what are the enlightened beings talking about? Right? How do we find it?

Brian Smith 34:08
So you you develop this technique, and I talked to people about meditation and a lot of us are turned off by the idea of meditation, we say, I can’t sit for five minutes without, you know, falling asleep, or just being bored out of my mind or driven crazy by my own thoughts. So what was your experience? Like when you when you first started meditating?

Roland Achenjang 34:28
Oh, great. Great. A great question. So the very first day was actually a morning I was walking home after work because I was working night shift minute. So this was another reason why I say the check engine lights were now just too many. I would go to work from 9pm to 8am. And then before going to work, I would go to class from 6pm to like 8:45pm and then leave and go to work. So I was doing this and sleeping during the day. So the first time I decided I would just sit in my bed in my bedroom, which was I had blackout curtains, my room looked like Batman’s cave. This is true. And again, it was just because I slept during the day at work that night. So, I sat in my bed and and what I decided to do was literally pay attention to as much as I can about my current being. And, and I, I didn’t know what would happen, I didn’t know what to expect. I didn’t even know how to do it, I didn’t know where I would start or you know, anything like that. I just thought I would lay there, or sit there, and then see what happens. And the very first time I did it within, like five minutes, because this was out, after work, I passed out, I was gone. I mean, I slept I was so exhausted. And then I wake up. And once I woke up now I was a little more rested. And I tried it again. And instantly, you know, just laying there and trying to pay attention to my being. My mind is racing, right all kinds of thoughts. This that drama here drama, their class, this work this, my technicians are mad at me. My boss is probably not happy that I was maybe late to work. Everything’s coming on, right? I feel awful. At the time, my back was hurting like crazy, I thought I had a pinched nerve that I needed surgical intervention to heal. I was missing my family because I wasn’t seeing anybody anymore. I was just really this lonely being. It sounds really sad, but really was. I look back and I thought maybe I was clinically depressed. Most of this is going on. And then all of a sudden I see this toiling light, right. And it’s just colorful, and it’s very distinct. And it looks like a blurb. But it’s right there and just turning in my in my third eye. Mm hmm. And so I get enamored by it. And that was what my attention now became focused on. And as the lightest turning and just watching it. I’m freaking out at the same time. Like what is this? Right? Nobody up to that point had ever told me this was possible. Hmm. Not in business school at the time. Not in in pharmacy school. The idea that you could lay in your bed after waking up in your best attempt to pay attention to yourself. Sorry, I’m laughing it sounds crazy. But I see this light swirling in my in my third eye. I had no idea what a third eye was at the time. And I’m thinking What is this? What is this? And it goes on for a while. And then it stops. And I wake up. I remember I went to class that day. And I was so alert. I mean, I was awake. And I I paid attention in class that afternoon, evening. And I just being alerted like oh my goodness, and they know what happened. And so I would come back, and then continue the practice where I would sit and pay attention to myself. Hmm. Now while I was doing this, those experiences began to build on themselves. Soon the light turned into my hands would now start moving throughout my body. Kind of like in a scanning position. Mm hmm. My fingers would move through my body as if I was playing piano keys. Hmm. Sometimes my hand would move by itself. I like to pause here and say this. If you recall, I grew up in Cameroon in West Africa. If anything wasn’t off religious Christian teaching that you were experiencing outside of what this realm could explain. It was witchcraft.

Brian Smith 38:53
Exactly, devil.

Roland Achenjang 38:54
Now. I don’t know how, how else to explain it. Maybe I use the word Voodoo. But here in America, um, the whole idea of witchcraft is it’s very different back in Cameroon. It’s a taboo, huh? I mean, a taboo, even the whole idea of meditating is a taboo. That’s that’s witchcraft stuff. Don’t bring that. What do you mean meditating? What’s that? You’re gonna make us go crazy. You’re gonna. So if you can appreciate where I was, as this, this kid who is really just starting to, to dabble into paying attention to himself, and I’m having all these experiences, and my conditioning to that point was, this ain’t supposed to be happening. The red lights were This is witchcraft. Right. And I knew, and I was convinced that I had been possessed by the devil. Right. So that was my thinking. I was like, the devil’s got hold of Roland. He’s now moving his hands in weird ways. What the heck is this? But he was the kicker, Brian. I would meditate and have these experiences, and they would build on themselves One day, my hand might just move an inch. And then I would stop and freak out. Then the next day, my move three inches, and my whole hand will stop moving and moving to my body. And as this built on themselves, I would freak out and stop in a moment. But then realize how much better I was feeling. And then build up the courage to continue to practice.

Brian Smith 40:29
Yeah, and I yeah, I think it’s really fascinating to hear, because as I said, I’ve realized so much to your story, I was raised Pentecostal apostolic, which is similar, everything outside of the church has got to be the devil and stuff. But you, you’ve gotten to the point where it’s like, I’m going to trust myself, I’m going to trust my own experiences and go with it. I think that’s so that’s so powerful that you were able to do that. And, and, and the other thing I think is really cool is when you start to meditate, you had no expectations, you know, for so for myself, a lot of other people were like, Okay, well, how do I do this? And what am I supposed to experience? And I could mess this up, you know, in our own minds, because we were like, you know, am I doing it right? And you you were just free? And maybe that’s why you were able to have such an amazing breakthrough as quickly as you did.

Roland Achenjang 41:17
That is true, I mean, that that’s certainly part of it. And I created this six proven paths to effective meditating guide. And, and that is one of the paths I talked about in looking back at my experience. Now, I did have goals. So I started meditating, because I needed help, amongst other things, to cope with my work and school stress. Right? Right, I had no idea it would become this spiritual practice at all. And that it would lead to a spiritual awakening and kind of life altering and life transforming experience. But the whole idea of not trying to guide it to help me cope with work and school stress only, definitely played a role in that as I was meditating and having these experiences, I was exploring it. And the cool thing was, it was actually simultaneously helping me cope with the stresses of work in school. Yeah. And so today, I say, if you are thinking about meditating, regardless of why, as long as it is your y, as long as you say, Okay, this is why I want to do this. And you’re disciplined enough to continue to practice, right? focused, or even, I’ll just say, with the intention of achieving your y. This will also happen for you. I’m not this unique individual, who all of a sudden figured out something that has not been part of the human race since we started to incarnate on this planet. Even more so given my background, there is no no upbringing of mine, that would have said Roland would be able to find a sense of state of being that he currently has through meditating. Because this is not part of my culture growing up in Cameroon. Yeah. Today, if I even mentioned this to my, you know, fellow Cameroonians, a lot of them, you know, they’re telling me, Hey, take a hike with this witchcraft stuff. Don’t dabble in that stuff. Yeah. And, and, and, and I pray today, I appreciate that very much, right. Especially following my awakening, I do. Because these fears are what are creating the current Earth life experience that we’re having. And these fears are really based off of your upbringing, your conditioning, the lessons you chose to come and learn in this current life. And the way you choose to overcome the fears are entirely yours. And the cool thing is, the more fears you overcome, the more you expand your consciousness, and then eventually, you start to see life from an entirely different perspective, which is what I think is where I am today.

Brian Smith 44:09
Yeah, I think it’s, like I said, as I hear you, when we, when we met a couple of weeks ago, I was like, I can just see myself and you but I see a lot of other people also. And when you talk about your meditation technique, I work with a guy named Calvin chin, who’s taught meditation all around the world. And one of the things that I’ve gotten from Calvin, over the last several months I’ve known him, it’s like, stop expecting, somebody stopped worrying about whether you’re doing it right or wrong. And he had a period of time after his mother passed away when he was trying to get back to his meditation. And he said he would just cry. And he finally realized that was my meditation. It was just to sit there and to be with my own feelings. So I say this to our listeners, not so much you is that if you’re trying to meditate, stop trying, just do it and trust that you’re doing whatever you’re doing is the right thing for you and, and we all have different experiences. I’ve been meditating myself for several years. Now and every day for about the last I’m coming up in four years, I guess it is. My experiences are not like yours, and that’s okay. But your you know, listen to your experiences, they can be, I think inspirational to all of us and realize you know that you got what Roland needed at the time with your experiences. So you’re doing this meditation and you’re getting hooked on it, you’re going, you’re going longer and longer, you start off for five minutes, and now you’re up to what, a couple hours a day.

Roland Achenjang 45:29
So, now I average about two hours a day.

Brian Smith 45:32
So when you had your, your, I’m gonna call it an awakening, and I was at 2018. What was that? Like? What, what was the experience of that like?

Roland Achenjang 45:42
That? That was fascinating. So I’ll take you back a couple of months leading up to that day. Okay, um, and then Fun fact to that August 21 2018, was exactly a year to the date where we had that national solar eclipse move across the United States. It was August 21 2017, when that Eclipse happened. And it was only about, you know, six months after my awakening, where I was looking at the glasses that we had to look at the solar eclipse that I saw that date on there. Whoa, that’s odd. That was a year to date. But I digress. Sorry, to answer your question. About six months, a couple of months prior to that. Part of my meditative practice, would was, you know, still requiring me to adopt these yoga positions. Now, I’ve not mentioned that yet. But the Koreas my hand movements, those began, like I said, to build on themselves, to the point where my entire body was being moved into yoga positions and yoga poses. And it was in that realization, or it was during those experiences that I also appreciated that, you know, everything that we do is really a child of source. When you connect to source, you start to do these things. And it made sense to me in that way. Um, another interesting thing about these yoga poses that I adopt in the midst of meditating is how fine tuned and accurate there are, it’s not like going to a yoga class, I could go to a yoga class, and actually get stressed out even more. Because the poses and the flows that the yoga instructor putting me through, isn’t necessarily what my body needs energetically at the time. Hmm. In deep meditation, these yoga poses that I’m going through exactly what my body needs. And there’s a synchronicity to the entire movement and my breathing, it seems like a symphony, it’s, I’m flexing the right muscles at the right time, I’m breathing just the right amount of depth and releasing at the right time. Sometimes it’s even a firebreath, where it’s faster. So all these aspects of all these different meditation and yoga and breathing techniques, become part of my experience, without me consciously saying, I need to do this now. It’s just letting go deeper and deeper into the meditative practice. But one of these yoga positions I was trying to adopt was a boat pose as like a deep boat pose, where as my butt was on the floor, and my legs were raised up, my torso was also raised up. But then I had to connect my hands to my legs and hold them. So I look like it kind of looks like a triangle in a way. And I, I try to hold that pose. Many times I would, I’d be meditating. And I’d end up on the floor, raise my legs, and then try to hold it and then balance myself in that position. And when I did, I would fall every time I do it. Every time I attempt it, I would fall on this Tuesday morning, I kid you not I’m slipping in my bed. And something wakes me up. And I get this urge deep within, hey, don’t do anything right now. Go meditate. This, this is the time to go do it. Hmm. And because as I’ve started to build on receiving this intuitive messages, not doubting it, I get out of my bed right on the edge there. start meditating. I ended up on the floor again. My legs, right, same pose, my legs go up, my back straightens up. Then my hands in a lock my toes. And then bam. For the very first time, I was able to stabilize, I was strong enough and calm enough to stabilize myself in that position. And as I held it, I could feel this vibration in the base of my spine and a hair pop and then this energy frequency or this energy ball moves right from the base to the crown of my head. Feel it great to me. spine, as one energy wave moves up, I go, oh, now me exclaiming Oh, was actually me remembering all this information about who I was and why I was. And with every move with every way, a

energetic movement, there were three distinct, the first one comes up and I go, Oh, the second one comes up and I go, oh my goodness, that’s true. And then the third one with the third one, it was just a full foot on my goodness, that’s who I am. That’s why I’m here. And this is true for everybody. Now, there were only three ways. We have seven main chakras, depending on who you talk to. Mm hmm. But with those three waves, I had built this strong foundation. And I believe I was actually opening my lower three chakras, literally opening them that the entire hurt f life experience made sense to me, a metaphor would be alright, you have a 1 million puzzle piece. But it’s in a box, and you don’t know what the puzzle is. That’s earthlife. Now with this, we can experience I was able to put all the puzzle pieces together, and I can see the picture. And it was this divine creation. And in it and I looking back, I always think I should have stayed on and then maybe gone on seven waves. But I was so excited, I stopped, I let go, ran upstairs, open my back door and looked out my backyard. And I could see my car, I could see a storage shed right next to my car. Across the street from me was Main Street in this small town where I lived in I can see cars moving and honking my neighbor’s house, her car, the wind hit my face, I could see brushes on the left side of my house, which is kind of like property boundaries, right where it’s like, this is where our property ends, you know, separating my house from what was a photo studio at the time. And I could and then I looked at the clouds and the sky was blue patches were out those the sun shining. And all of this, there was actually like a little dry clothes hanging rack outside to just some wires. All this stuff. I looked at it. And all I could say was holy crap. That’s This is it. This is consciousness. This is, for lack of better. This is the god we’re looking for. All of this, including me Is God interacting with itself as unique expressions of itself. It was it was so beautiful. I was like laughing and crying at the same time. And I felt like I really felt in that moment after remembering all of this. Like the but to the best joke ever told, literally I thought my this is good. And I was just thinking, wow, whoever or whatever designed such an experience. You got us like this is amazing. What, what, what are the same thing? Yes. Having a unique experience. Yes. designed to teach us that we are all the same thing? Yes. What? And so I go back downstairs, and I’m on a high Brian for an entire week. I can’t I can’t sleep a full night. I can’t do anything. I go to work that day. And I couldn’t work. And I’m just spewing all this just consciousness basically just statements and everything’s making sense. I’m trying to tell my coworkers about this. And I literally sounded manic. That’s how happy I was. I was too happy to function. I mean, I’ll be honest, that whole day, eight hours, I didn’t do anything at work. I was just basically walking around laughing and smiling at people as a Do you realize how amazing and brave you are to be here? Do you even understand what you’re doing? Do you get it? Do you remember? That’s the word Do you remember? And of course they didn’t. Of course they thought I was insane. And being pharmacy director, right. It’s like, hey, Roland is supposed to dispense the drug to our patients. Right? Stop taking them. Yeah, stop, stop taking them. But that’s how I felt. And I would come home and have hours of conversations with myself which were basically downloads is one way to say it right and expanded consciousness. So I was getting all this information and all these explanations come through. And I would write them on my phone, I would audio record them. And that was the genesis of my of what eventually became my book.

I would call my wife and talk to her for hours and

and she she was she felt the same way. She’s like, okay, what’s going on? Why are you so happy? If you don’t mind, I’ll share this story just to kind of paint a picture of, of just how happy I was to the point where I wasn’t even, like you can’t function on this planet in that state of being. Yeah, I can’t maintain it. Well, I can. But

Brian Smith 55:14
yeah, I want to interject, because I think it’s a really good point. Because I’m listening to talking, I’ve got a big smile on my face. And it reminds me when I talked to Mary terhune, who had a similar experience. And when we get into your book, I want to talk about this whole idea because the idea of death of the ego, right, and but you, you were saying you couldn’t function you couldn’t you couldn’t go to work and do the normal. And she said the same thing. She went to work and she was worthless. So it’s, I think it’s a really interesting point that you brought up there. But yeah, go ahead and tell the story.

Roland Achenjang 55:44
Oh, yeah, no, I marry, she’s an amazing lady too. And, you know, we connected through actually the same mutual friend who connected us to so and I was also very fascinated with her story. Through meditating, she had an awakening experience as well. Mm hmm. But just to paint a picture of what I mean by you, my life literally changed. Now, at the same time, my wife, beautiful lady, beautiful souls, so brave as well to incarnate on this planet, and then choose to experience life with with my, with my behind. She was in the midst of applying into medical schools. Now, up to that, that week, I was going based on my experience, which was I only applied to to medic to pharmacy schools. And I got into both of them, and I picked one. And so in my ego, and selfishly, my argument was only apply to one or two medical schools. But she said, No, I want to apply to 1520 medical schools. And I thought, That’s ridiculous. You know how much money you’re going to spend applying to all these schools, then what the schools are going to do, because that’s what they do is they invite everybody to come and interview. But at the end, you’re only going to go to one school. So why waste all this energy going and talking to all these people, making it difficult for you to even make a decision afterwards, on which medical school you want to go to? Right, because you have to as part of the match process, you have to pick which schools are your favorite. And then if there’s a match, or if you if you get admitted there, etc, etc, etc. But I was so enamored that she only applied to medical schools, which was, I mean, it was selfish. It was also based off of my experience as you don’t need this many quit stressing yourself out. And then also, I didn’t want to spend that much money applying to all this man. And then, on top of that, you had to fly and travel. And all of this, I don’t do this, right. After my awakening, after remembering who we were and why we were when she mentioned, she, she called she’s okay, we need to talk about this. And I’m so happy, right? I was like, sweetie, if you want to apply to 50 medical schools Go for it, it doesn’t even matter. Listen, you’re gonna end up where you need to be. And all these applications that you’re gonna apply are part of your learning experience. It’s part of your uniqueness. So go for it. Right, and I’m so happy and so supportive and so positive. And it was unusual. she freaked out. But what is going on? Right? Just, that’s just an example of how life was for me that entire week. Yeah,

Brian Smith 58:32
yeah. Hey, everybody, that’s the end of part one of my interview with Roland. Go ahead and find Part Two where we really get into talking about his book. This first part has been talking about his life experience. Part Two, we’re going to talk about the book, I think you’re really going to enjoy it and I’ll see you there. That’s it for another episode of grief to growth. I sure hope you got something out of it. Please stay in contact with me by reaching out at www. Grief to growth calm, that’s grief, the number two growth.com or you can text the word growth to 31996. That’s simply text growth gr o wt h 231996. So if you’re watching this on YouTube, please make sure you subscribe. So hit the subscribe button. And then hit the little bell here. And it’ll notify you when I have new content. Always please share the information if you enjoy it. That helps me to get more views and to get the message out to more people. Thanks a lot and have a wonderful day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Well, she doesn’t really talk to angels. But, I got the Black Crowes song stuck in my head when thinking about this episode. So, there you go! I sat down for another fascinating hour plus with Kimberly Clark Sharp. She is a joy to talk to and a hoot!

 

If you haven’t already, go back to episode 78 from June of 2020 and listen to the details of her NDE which we only had time to cover briefly here. I wanted to talk to Kim about her many years of experience with witnessing angels. Angels of protection, angels coming to take us Home, and angels apparently on a coffee break. Kim is the author of “After the Light: The Spiritual Path to Purpose”, the founder of Seattle IANDS, etc., etc., etc.

She has had several decades of service since her NDE while she was in college. If you want to reach Kim, you can reach her through the Seattle IANDS website.

 

Transcript:

 

Brian Smith 0:00
Hi everybody this is Brian back with another episode of grief to growth in a day with me I have Kim Clark sharp. She’s been with me before you may remember her from Episode 78 if you didn’t catch it up, so make sure you go back and look it up. Kim’s she’s a great person to talk to a great storyteller. And she told a really fascinating near death experience. I’m going to introduce candidate today we’re going to talk about angels in particular though, so Kim is the author of after the light the spiritual path to purpose, which was published by William Baran company in 1995. She’s the founder of the Seattle ions association of near death studies, which is the world’s oldest and largest support group for near death experiences since 1982. She was named one of the 40 most influential people under the age of 40 in the Pacific Northwest in 1987. Kim is also the founder of the Department of Social Work at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center. She’s a pioneer in the field work in the field of critical care, social work. She’s an international conference and workshop speaker you may have seen her as a moderator at the ions conference recently, which was held online. She’s been published in many journals, textbooks and magazines. Kim’s also a consultant to the news and entertainment and just doing. She’s a co teacher of terminal illness seminar at the School of Medicine, the University of Washington, she has been done, she’s done that. She’s a clinical assistant professor, and she’s a Master of Social Work. So that’s quite a bit but with that, I want to introduce Kimberly Clark sharp. Hi.

Kim Clark Sharp 1:30
Okay, thanks. Bye. I think you

Brian Smith 1:34
know, that’s that’s quite a resume. And I guess I would highly recommend anybody that didn’t hear your earlier episode, to go back and catch that. But if you could just briefly take us through your near death experiences, kind of give us a background of who you are.

Kim Clark Sharp 1:48
Yeah, I would like to do that. Thank you. And then also add some more layers to your introduction because it just wasn’t long enough. And by the way, listeners have Brian, so it’s very easy for me to be at home in front of my computer monitor. We’re talking like, Hi, you know, so it’s I’m not in a very, very formal mood around Brian.

Brian Smith 2:11
Yeah, it’s fine.

Kim Clark Sharp 2:12
You’re gonna get this sincere. I was at work. This is Sarah Kim. Yeah. My near death experience was in 1970. And I was in college and I collapsed, for reasons that were never fully determined. Because the volunteer fire department from where my body lay in Shawnee Mission, Kansas, by the way, came with a portable ventilator that was brand new, and they applied it with a seal around my mouth and turned it on. But there were two modes to this portable ventilator to ventilate, go figure. Yeah, and then To the vacuum to extract objects that might be blocking a person’s airway. And I had nothing in my throat, but they the default was on vacuum. So when they turned it on, I already had been, according to a uniform nurse who happened to be passing by my body. And you know, weighed down by my dad who was with me. She wasn’t getting a pulse, she didn’t perceive any breath. So whatever oxygen I had left in my body, I mean, literally had the life sucked out of me. It was just pretty dramatic. And my resuscitation was long, but I was young and they weren’t going to give up. My dad, we’re just coming out of the Department of Motor Vehicles. So my dad noted the time that we left in the time that I was admitted to the emergency room or the local Trauma Center, which was in Kansas City, which was a ways from where my body lay and I’m That was an hour and a half. So in that hour and a half a lot happened. Again, I was being resuscitated, though it wasn’t like I woke up in the morgue with that toe tag on. You know, I mean, when rigor mortis starts, I don’t care what you say there’s no coming back. So I was still alive, but not breathing on my own even remotely. But the headlines of my near death experience was I could hear a woman’s voice to my left saying, I’m not getting a pulse. I’m not getting a pulse. That turned out to be a uniform nurse. I talked to her, she ignored me. I thought I could be heard. I couldn’t. That’s how quote unquote real Mike’s my time and that space felt. And then I just gave up and went to another place that I seem to find or was taken to, I don’t know, but I was surrounded by very warm gray foggy material. I knew I wasn’t alone. I had no anxiety it felt like the most normal thing in the world. And it was as if you know, I’m in the I’m in the waiting Bay at a gate at the airport, got my ticket and just waiting for my, my section to be called, was it was nothing in terms of anxiety. It felt normal. I couldn’t see who I was with because of that dark gray fog. But then a light erupted under me and in that it just enveloped me and everything that I could see. Which brings up the point of how can I see anything? My body had my eyeballs in it. What was I doing looking at anything? I still haven’t figured that out. I don’t get how that works. But I could speak just fine, thank you. And this light, which I call God, or my Creator, or Brian, for that matter. Because there are no words, and then there’s all words. But anyway, I was shown in a linear fashion, this light just went on forever literally. We showed that and then also how this light was simultaneously layering on itself. And I, I somehow knew that the light that was going out in all directions was linear time, as we know it, at least. And I don’t know if that’s Earth time or universe time or what I, you know, dang, I left my watch on my body. The layers were dimensions. And at my age, I don’t even think I’d heard of you in Kansas dimensions like, but I got it I somehow understood and that was also like an ending. It was incredible. But the main thing is that this light was all love. It was just

a love that even as a parent and a happy wife and a happy person on the planet, I have not been able to give or receive. It was beyond anything. And it was for everybody. You know, I’d like to think that bad guys get there isn’t the end. But now, this light this God loves everyone equally in the story. And then I was told I had to go back argued, I’m here to say you can argue with God, you know, you may not win the argument, but you can certainly give it the old college try, which is literally what I was doing. Yeah. And then I was sent back and I missed my body by about three feet, which, ironically, is why I flunked that test at the DMV. I couldn’t parallel park a car within three feet. So they said come back when you’re not sweating in the pump so much. So I thought here I had the most wonderful experience. I looked at my body, and I thought I can’t even Park myself. But a body that was on the ground. was not me. Wasn’t My personality, my memories, my attachments even my sense of self. We’re looking at the meat just nothing there that my spirit it was just nothing, just just biology. And then I saw a man I didn’t recognize bend over and and put his mouth against mine. Well, that was mouth to mouth resuscitation. And so I that drew me back into my body and through him. Wink wink that was interesting. If I knew everything about the guy, as you pass

Brian Smith 8:39
through him going into your

Kim Clark Sharp 8:40
bathroom, yeah, yeah. Um, my dad called him the Good Samaritan for the rest of my father’s life. You know, he really, and good Samaritans can swear like a mule skinner or a sailor. He was both. I mean, my father The air was sick with very naughty words. But um, I I that I didn’t perceive any of that in him I perceived compassion. And here it just seems the greatest love of all. And of course, I’m going to be drawn to it. You know, I think the physical contact helped the mouth to mouth but maybe it was the love he had for me. I was a stranger loved me. Hmm. And as I went through him, I loved him too. And then, but then I was trapped in a very bad body situation. When I got to the emergency room, my admitting temperature was at six. You know, is a in Yeah, nice if you’re in a pool. Yeah. swimming around with your kids, but not it’s pretty cold. Eternal. Exactly. So yeah. So I beg for God to come back. And so as I said, I’d give you the short version. This is actually the short version to

Brian Smith 9:59
cover things up. Now you are woke then again go back to episode seven eight if you want to hear the details which you should

Kim Clark Sharp 10:04
Ah thank you it’s nice I should like you anyway um I beg to be brought back to having good homie home that’s what I called it home. Yeah, yeah. And um, so again skipping over scuff God fortunately showed up again and said a rider, right you know, such a whiner just annoyed got enough, they went Alright, enough. So a window, or portal or something opened up to my right. And I was told that if I went through that I wasn’t coming back. That was my border. And so and Okay, by that I was distracted by a flash of light. It was the beginning of showing me my future should I choose to live If there was a place where mountains met water, which sure wasn’t Kansas, yeah. And then that dissolved, I was heading into heaven. And which is beautiful By the way, I was talking about that another time, but it was so beautiful. And another flash of light just because I was going through this window and it was people is like a Portrait Gallery of people that I would significantly interact with if I chose to live in that captions underneath. And it was nothing glorious, you know, no world leaders or celebrities. It’s just your best friend next door neighbor, colleague mentor stuff. I didn’t know those people so back to have an ongoing and then there was another flash, and it was me being of service. Somebody who had never occurred to me in my life, to be honest, I wasn’t I just you know, didn’t think about it. And I said cool in it. Turns out, you know, God’s a hippie? Cool, neat. Yes. Yeah. Cool, dude. You know, I was back. And in my opinion, I was back to serve. Hmm. Because that’s when I said, cool. So I have approached my life ever since then. That’s one of service.

Brian Smith 12:23
Yeah. Click resume. That’s what you’ve done. Yeah.

Kim Clark Sharp 12:27
Yeah, I feel like at this time I might even alive. Haven’t I checked all the boxes, but there’s obviously still more work to be done. And I’m joyfully providing what I can. And this show is an example of that. I want to help people. Yeah, I or people. I want to comfort people. I want to inform people

Brian Smith 12:48
on what you’re doing all that and like I said, I know you’re near death experience. It is fascinating. And you just told a very quick version of it so people can go back and they can get your book also, I guess to find out more details. But today we’re going to talk about angels. So this this what triggered you starting to see angels?

Kim Clark Sharp 13:08
He did a yes or no. I the first you think I would be prepared for this broadcast, but I’m an off the cuff kind of person and I’m a feeling kind of person. So I don’t have the stuff in the can. Yeah, that’s

Unknown Speaker 13:31
fine. From my heart. Yeah.

Kim Clark Sharp 13:34
So sorry about the pauses or the fumbling of words and

Unknown Speaker 13:37
find moment.

Kim Clark Sharp 13:40
Angels. Can I preface this with something? Sure. I’m actually a grounded person. I mean, I’m from Kansas grounded. went to college at Kansas State University in the middle of the state grounded Lutheran grounded I married a Seattle firefighter grounded. He’s the only fellow I ever wanted to marry and we’re still married after decades and decades come out. three kids, two step kids, one birth child, and one when maybe they didn’t make it, which puts me in an odd way in your realm. But grounded, social worker grounded advanced degree grounded clinical system professor at the University of Washington taught death and dying for 20 all that requires crowdedness all the things I’ve found it I have ground underneath my feet, and yet angels that might add negative energy to scary things and way too many dead people. So, um, but angels have. So yeah, you know, we’ll never know know if what if I had not had a near death experience? Is that opened up to me? But since my near death experience I feel like I’ve walked into worlds that grounded one, but also one that allows me visions and intuitions and communications that certainly weren’t going on before my near death experience. Okay, but what really set it off for me and my memory was the first time I saw angels with my eyeballs.

Brian Smith 15:35
See, objectively see angels.

Kim Clark Sharp 15:37
Yes, I did. Now it’s more subjective, but yeah, but many years went by. Yeah, visualizing eyes on. Yeah, it’s up here, buddy. I mean, it’s like, um, and I also have to say that when I have ever seen an angel, I sculpt on a dime I angels here, for lack of a better word. Well, what would you say? Very positive vibes? Hmm? spiritual, positive, holy, for lack of a better word. Okay. And I cannot, to this day perceive of an angel without pretty much collapsing on the floor, shaking like a leaf, because there’s a power that comes with these beings as well, that humbles me to the point of utter dysfunction. Unfortunately, I’ve never been in a situation where I was going to endanger myself or others, except for maybe one time when I saw an angel and I can’t I just, I’m stupefied. So when I talk about these Angel encounters, it sounds so glib. In real life. It’s not at all I’m not sure Shot as anyone would be like to see an angel. So, it was about seven and a half years after my near death experience, after a few years of perceiving, unfortunately and for who knows why, but what I call negative energy, and some people might say demonic energy, but certainly Bad Juju. I mean, without a doubt harmful, scary, terrifying, actually. And I bless those experiences too, though, because they I think they lead to the angel vision. And also those experiences led to a very powerful sense of myself in terms of dealing with negative energy, which shows up all over the place. And frankly, which politically sometimes is at risk because I believe in underdog stuff. Because I know angels are present. Hmm. I want to go support people that are oppressed or depressed. I’m drawn to that because there be angels.

Unknown Speaker 18:15
Yeah.

Kim Clark Sharp 18:16
And what you know, we’re going to say anyway, I had had the unfortunate experience of not chewing my food properly. And that was peanuts. And one of the peanuts didn’t fully digest and as it was exiting my body, she says the most lady like fashion, it just tore everything. It was a sharp edge that just ripped through. Oh, I became very ill septic had a bunch of surgeries that were not going well. And I thought I want to go home to mom and dad. And I did four more surgeries, that I was single and young. And really needed my parents do after me for further surgeries which were ahead of me and by the way successful, but I became septic there as well. Which means full of bad germs. Yeah. And very, very sick. And I was lying on a couch in our family room when a very scary thing was approaching me in my I mean, no one was around. So I don’t know if anyone could have seen what I saw or not. But it was a being that scared the snot out of me. And considering where my surgery was, I could use another word Come to think of it. Yeah, it was scary. And I was petrified and then all of a sudden I saw movement after my Right. And then to my left, I thought, What? And there were, what To this day I called angels. And how I knew they were angels. I don’t know. Except for those feelings. They completely ignored me as angels do. And, but they came in and formed like a protective barrier between this thing and me. And I mentioned I’m Lutheran. All I could think of, at that time was the song. I know that my Redeemer lives. And I cannot sing, but it’s like, I know, I’m so scared. I know. I would just, that’s all I can think of. Hmm. And this being shrunk from it. And these angels, for lack of a better word, were empowered by it, and I watched the whole thing. So then I got Stronger about it. I know that my Redeemer lives and it just seemed to, like a prayer in my heart. Yeah. Not just to him. Yeah, to prayer. And God heard my prayer and because I guess maybe because I could perceive this thing. I was also going to proceed the things that were going to protect me from the thing. vocabulary, the thing of the things yeah,

the angels. They were just making an introduction in my life. I have a cheat sheet because I don’t want to forget any of my experiences. So here’s my cheat sheet. Yeah, yeah, I have a bunch of my stories before the broadcast so so

Brian Smith 21:44
how did how did this this negative being a peer was it demonic? Was it it? Was it human humanoid or what was it like

Kim Clark Sharp 21:53
humanoid I’d seen it before? Okay. So hit others in this case. Love a grace Lifeline and that my weird experiences are often with others. Like get some validation going during internal sometimes they are sometimes not. And I lived in a house with a roommate and I had a lot of friends over. And this thing was fully present. You know, it was it was nastier than I can. I can tell you it grew in power, and it seemed to just want me, you know, I felt weak in its presence. And it just wanted to attach itself to me. And I felt like turn me into a bad guy or something sort of child of God. Yeah, I already knew as a child of God, I already knew I was going to heaven. Right? Oh, it’s like, in a way. That no chance. Yeah. But I was really happy to see what I perceived as angels, and there’s a fella by the name of Howard storm.

Brian Smith 23:06
Yeah, but actually these are my death Howard stories you’re telling yours?

Kim Clark Sharp 23:10
Oh, well, yeah, so he in his near death experience also was surrounded by terrifying mm hmm similar creatures that were also after him. You know why I don’t know that for either one of us or for anybody I don’t know why. Yeah, he was an atheist he didn’t know how to pray. Yeah. So he gave like the boy scout oath. Yeah, the National Anthem, I mean all kinds of things. But again, the prayer was heard in his heart. Same for me with you know, I know that my Redeemer lives. Yeah, you know, it’s uh i couldn’t have, I believe said something in Hebrew or in Farsi Or in Polynesian dialect of it you know, it’s it’s what comes from within what’s not not the words, right?

Unknown Speaker 24:10
But

Kim Clark Sharp 24:12
this thing did not like that him and assured it like the angels and then when the edges were completely forming a barrier and by the way I’m like which is what I am like all the time now I could see them so I can describe to you how I perceive angels because it hasn’t changed yeah yeah must fill or an angel looks like yeah for me anyway when an angel looks like a big, huge, ginormous yeah the humanoid human in appearance but but Matter of earthly sizes are really big sons of guns. And I could see them. They were both visible and invisible. I could see them but not see them. I could see their faces. I could pick up their intentions. They were not white. Like we proceed here. I have a metaphor. Oh my gosh, I’m gonna drink an angel. Ah, man. This is a glass of water. That’s how I see angels. It’s like looking through a glass of water. So you can see the shape of the of the glass,

Brian Smith 25:50
I think. Okay.

Kim Clark Sharp 25:52
It’s distorted, but you can see through it. This last word Angel. That’s what an angel would look like. So they’re translucent. Kinda like, trance parent. Wadley a lot of motion. Yeah. Um, and then I guess this space up here above the water would be where I would see their faces.

Unknown Speaker 26:11
Mm hmm.

Kim Clark Sharp 26:13
Which were different were clearer than their bodies. The bodies had a lot going on a lot of motion. So I guess if I jiggled the water but I would spill it over.

Brian Smith 26:24
Yeah, yes, I do that. Yeah,

Kim Clark Sharp 26:26
there was a place behind them where those wings. They look like wings that were tucked in. But I never saw the bird take off, you know? Yeah. I don’t know how much of my culture American culture, middle class culture, Lutheran culture, college, all those things that make up our perceptions. I don’t know the influence on me.

Unknown Speaker 26:53
Yeah. Um,

Kim Clark Sharp 26:57
so you know, or those wings or something. Just all of the the motion that I was seeing, I don’t know. Yeah. But they looked in their faces. I’m making this point because I’ve encountered many other angels that had different faces and different intentions, by the way. But their faces were one of resolve, like calm resolve, and again, absolutely no notice of me whatsoever. It’s like they were on a job. You know, they were they were just on the job.

Brian Smith 27:33
So they were just there to protect you. So no communication with you. Okay,

Kim Clark Sharp 27:39
nope, nope. I might as well have not been in the room. Hmm. Absolutely not. It was like, I was just part of the job. Or that thing was part of the job. I wasn’t even sure I was part of the job. Yeah. But they were there to protect me. And of course, I have jumped God many times since then, they can have people who were protected maybe by this little band of angel was a little it’s pretty big. And then why are some people to protect it and others not? And you know, and go cray cray, just so I intellectualize it, and just accept it for what it is with gratitude, I might add. Yeah, yeah. So that’s when the angels first came into my awareness. I recovered from all the sepsis and infections and surgeries and, and went back to work at Harborview Medical Center, where I spent 10 years and you mentioned in my intro, I spent binary in the field of social work in critical care. And where there are people that are sick and sick and dying in particular, again, there be angels. So angels became part of my Work.

Brian Smith 29:01
Are you see them when you’re working with patients?

Kim Clark Sharp 29:03
Yes, sir. Okay. Wow. It was amazing. Amazing. They’re busy. Again, utterly ignoring me. Take care of them. I’m ready for a story.

Unknown Speaker 29:17
Yeah, absolutely.

Kim Clark Sharp 29:18
Great. Okay. So there was a patient in coronary care, they may have saw us a local cardiologist. And as it turns out, the intern on duty was his nephew who was studying to be a physician. Okay. And I saw was admitted, and he was doing fine until he wasn’t. He went to cardiac arrest one day, and the nephew was in charge of the resuscitation, which never should have happened but no one wanted to stop them. And they kept calling for paddles for saw, which is you know, zap them. You know, Paul’s post, he was not going to come back from that. The nephew in love was not going to give up. So shock after shock after shock, and people were looking at each other and then looking at me as a social worker like we need to call this we need to call it but no one wanted to interrupt a killing grieving. Then, in front of all of us saw try this at home people saw lying in bed. Not having had a heartbeat that repeatedly set up in bed without bending his legs. Like a puppet would come up or doll. Hmm, that’s really hard to do, especially as an older gentleman. Yeah. But it’s hard for anyone to do someone’s not holding your ankles. Set up like 445 degree angle. And he opened his eyes and a little smile came across his face. And he was looking up like I am. And so I want to see what you’re looking at. And they’re coming like from the sky was a flying wedge angels The first time I saw the flying wedge. Hmm, in that sense, okay. The first and it was as if I had vision that could be I wasn’t I wasn’t impinged at all by a ceiling or walls or multiple floors and a huge hospital setting. I can see through all that and see these angels again like in a wet like geese,

Brian Smith 31:43
so I can have the formation. Yeah, please. Yeah,

Kim Clark Sharp 31:45
thank you for the words, a formation coach. I don’t have the stuff in the can. So Brian will now speak for me. Again, ignored and they came down They came down and saw is looking like astonished.

Unknown Speaker 32:06
Yeah.

Kim Clark Sharp 32:08
And they got to him and his body fell back. And I didn’t see the angels anymore. But I knew they had taken salt like, swing low sweet chariot. Yeah. They took him away. Yeah. And then it was the social worker Yours truly, that went up to the intern and put my hand on his and said, No, he’s gone.

Brian Smith 32:31
Yeah. So that’s a shared death experience. Would you had

Unknown Speaker 32:36
you? Yeah.

Kim Clark Sharp 32:37
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I mean, again, you speak for me, Brian. You’re better than

Unknown Speaker 32:44
Yeah,

Kim Clark Sharp 32:45
that would be. Yeah. Exactly. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Well, I gotta go now. Nothing about that. You’re right. Wow. Well, anyway, so They Angeles again that I see myth time. were everywhere. They were all over the hospital again. Very big, transparent, sometimes hovering, sometimes bedside. I’m an example to belie all of that coming up in my head, but again, always ignoring me. I saw angels in traffic. I want to tell that story. I saw angels in libraries at music events.

Unknown Speaker 33:37
Wow.

Kim Clark Sharp 33:38
Music it didn’t matter if it was hard rock or gospel.

Brian Smith 33:42
What are they doing it music events is hanging out or hanging out. Okay.

Kim Clark Sharp 33:47
Yeah, I guess I’ve never interviewed an angel. So what are you doing here didn’t didn’t. But I have seen angels hanging out. Thank you for the reminder. was at the University of Washington Medical Center once it was a medical fair for the community annual event and I was volunteering in the social work medical Social Work booth and you know, talking to people a lot of good energy and all that we were in a huge atrium, like room so my atrium I mean, it just went up up in the kind of a glass ceiling but very tall. No, no floors above it. And I just you know, hanging around when all of a sudden Bork there were angels. And again, shocking, they were hovering not above me but kind of like above the whole scene. And when I see angels also appears they have robes on return, not naked he, okay, the road of garments is Some kind. Yeah, but if I had walked over, I could have looked up the ropes. It was like that. So they were above my height. Okay, they’re above all the humans. No one was that tall in that big room. And they were like having a cocktail hour, and they’re totally on break. And I got that. I talked about hanging around there just like, you know, kind of having a downtime.

Brian Smith 35:28
And so we used to hovering you mean they weren’t like flying with their wings? They were just kind of hovering.

Unknown Speaker 35:34
Yeah,

Kim Clark Sharp 35:35
yeah. A clutch of them. Hmm. maybe six or seven. Somewhere in there. And you skirts.

Brian Smith 35:44
Yeah. But you didn’t perceive any communication amongst them or?

Kim Clark Sharp 35:49
Yeah, I did. But again, intuited it It wasn’t Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 35:53
Verbal, all right.

Kim Clark Sharp 35:56
But I just got the sense that they were on break. Okay. You know, Everything’s energy. And since my near death experience I’ve become sensitive to energy. makes for a pretty good social work practice. Yes, I can read people. Yeah. And so I can, I guess read angels too and they were totally on a break. So I was like her. So I thought, Okay, I need some reality here. So I turned in, and there was a fellow lighting a pipe. And then the booth next to the Social Work Booth was the American Lung Association. And those people behind the booth, like, really came down hard in the sky trying to light a pipe. And so I thought, okay, I’ll look at the pie. I’ll look at this drama. Ooh, they’re so mad. Oh, I don’t blame him. What’s he thinking with the pipe? You know, all this stuff? Yeah, really trying to distract myself. And then I look up again, just see the angels are still there. It’s like, didn’t go anywhere. So before when I when I saw he I didn’t take my eyes off of them this time. I did. And when I returned my attention to them, there was still there just hanging out a PS on that story in the book after the light became a popular book is this I still get royalty checks? Yeah, by the way, I write exactly like I talk. So if you ever read the book, I’ll be in your head. So, um, it turns out, Flash forward many years later, and I’m approached by a physician who said, I read your book. I was actually in the Himalayas, trying to get to Mount Everest. I don’t think he ever did. But he was. He brought that book to Nepal. And he was reading it and he said, I’m the person that tried to light the pipe. Oh, wow. Yeah, he went into shock. He’s on like, in the Himalayas, I’m still on Seattle. Well, it was just a shock. And he said that he thought the angels might have been there for he and his brother, because later that day his brother died in that hospital. Hmm. Interesting. And that’s why he was there. It wasn’t trying to attend the fair. He was just getting away from it all. And

Brian Smith 38:27
so it makes me wonder if they were there waiting for his brother.

Kim Clark Sharp 38:31
Yeah, right. You know, again, I’ve never interviewed an angel. Yeah. If they were just maybe waiting until they get into the wedge shape. Yeah, they go get them. But it was incredible meaning that person who was in the pipe and could fill in some of the angel story.

Brian Smith 38:52
Yeah. You said you see them in traffic also.

Kim Clark Sharp 38:55
Oh, yeah. Can I tell you my favorite story I keep asking you about Permission like you’re gonna say no. We don’t want to hear. Have I not told you the story?

Unknown Speaker 39:08
I haven’t heard it. I five Angel.

Kim Clark Sharp 39:10
No. Oh my gosh. Okay. Brian and Abel lispers just go with me on this ride. Okay. So Harborview Medical Center where I was working and seeing all the angels in the hospital and their baths as I’ve already shared is on a big Cliff that is called Harborview because it lives over downtown Seattle to this day at Puget Sound and then the Olympic Mountains. Mm hmm. And interrupting though between the hospital on this elevation and downtown, is interstate five by five and it’s the only North South Korea Or between Vancouver and Mexico. So it holds a lot of traffic and all the states but in rush hour in Seattle with only Seattle’s a a an hourglass shape city got water and mountains there’s no no way to spread out some things of below harbor view on I five were very compressed because not only work but everybody getting on for about same time we hit the same spot on line, a lot of traffic. So I was in this traffic looking at southbound looking at to the horizon brake lights. There’s at that time three lanes and I was in the far right lane. I thought I’m never getting home. It was a traffic jam. It was a parking lot beyond a traffic jam. So I’m sitting there like everyone else, you know, just waiting for traffic to break up and all of a sudden, to my left. I’m hearing It’s hot. Calling and a guy swearing sickness head out road rage, but we didn’t have that term yet. Yeah. honking and swearing at people as if his honks and language was going to move his lane of traffic. Exactly. Yeah, because he

Unknown Speaker 41:16
always says, dude.

Kim Clark Sharp 41:18
Anyway, so and I am not a swearing woman and if you hear me swear i really really mean it, by the way, but it was just like, come on. So I’m gonna have to do body language. Now I’m gonna back up from the camera so you see what I’m doing. So I’m in the car, okay, so I turn to give this driver the stink eye, which is what I learned from my mom on grandma. Just given him the stink eye except that between my stink eye and the driver was an angel. Hmm, again, huge Little bit and this was a two seater sports car. This guy was it. So he was still talking and swearing an angel next film was actually as physically contained was scrunched down because he was so big. Hmm. Like set up straight I think set would have been above the roof of the car. Yeah, I really would have freaked out. So here’s Kim. So I’m like this getting ready that you know, give them my best mom look. And I there’s this angel sitting there. So I’m, I’m like, so I’m like this, which is angels. And the angel impedimenta chair. The angels like Discord. Just you know, I’m over here going. Yeah. Again, the usual ignoring of cam. So in review, I’m like this right. And it’s like this. Done. The moment came the only time Angeles acknowledged Mike so By the way, right now, the angel slowly turned his head to me and looked me right in the eye and did this. Like, what can I do? He’s my guy. I don’t like this any more than anyone else. Hmm Yes, free will time. Ridiculous. I admitted I’m not having any influence on him. His anger and ego are too out of control. Yeah. And then the angel turned around and went back to ignoring me and looking straight ahead. And thank goodness we had all that traffic because that lane moved before mine and I was still

Unknown Speaker 43:42
I couldn’t believe it. Yeah.

Kim Clark Sharp 43:45
So Angel, so there’s another emotional so now we have angels who are like guardians, and we have angels that come to take deceased people. We have angels that hang around, waiting for things. We Angeles at concerts and in libraries and now we have angels on I five

Brian Smith 44:05
is, uh, do you think that maybe like a spirit guide? I mean is IRD is that different? Or do you know?

Kim Clark Sharp 44:13
I think different. Okay. I think different but that’s just me. You know, I’m not an expert. I only know my own experiences. But yeah. I love that Angel though, because my ego got involved. Oh, it saw me It knows me. Then it was gone. Yeah. Oh, um,

Brian Smith 44:37
that you see angels around you other than that time they were protecting you from that negative entity. Do you see them? active in your life?

Kim Clark Sharp 44:49
Yes and no. More I see them on behalf of others. Mm hmm. Let me look at my cheat sheet. I’ll be right back. Okay. It’s right here. All right, I wrote these kind of like an order of memory. This wasn’t about me but it was shocking. Again now Other than that, I five Angel I have never been acknowledge whether it was about me or not. Hmm. But I was with a fellow in a terrible storm on the Washington coast and we need we were in trouble. We needed some help. And he had a motorcycle and again, it was a it was a bad coastal storm. And he was going to go get help on his motorcycle. It didn’t want me on the motorcycle because we didn’t know if the roads were like of trees were down or whatever. And so he was leaving me in the storm of Washington State Peninsula, which is a wilderness area. I was like, Oh my gosh, he’s gonna die. I’m gonna die. We’re all gonna die. And then I saw he was bed overs in You know, groom groom, he gets a motorcycle started and he’s he starts to go and he’s hunkered down because of the wind and the rain, and hunker down behind him as an angel. Again, a big Angel, but in the same position as if you know the rain and when that he needed protected from but key. I don’t know about genders and angels that I have perceived male energy, female energy edges, neutral genderless energy. And so when I say him or her in my stories, I kind of get an idea of the energy. So this is a male energy, but anyway, completely holding my friend bent down. I could see the rain hitting my friend, but when it got to the angel went right through it See, I can see rain going right through its body. Hmm. And that was a first off Second Life. Wow, they’re impervious to weather. Isn’t that interesting? Yeah, I knew then though everything was going to be okay. And that Angel would be, I would say a protective Angel. Hmm. Was there one around me? Not that I saw. Yeah. But I did see this and I didn’t brought me great comfort and it was okay. We came back with help we got out of there Done deal at a story made for great story. And that’s it. Then another time we live above a beach in Seattle. Okay, up high beach. And what’s just on the beach, I saw a guy going along and just kind of kicking rocks and just you know, beach walk strolling, but he was strolling with an angel. And that was a shock because just a day. This wasn’t a hospital or a music venue or a school or at which is just a beach walk, guys. going on. Yeah, but walking along reminds me of that poem about footsteps, you know? Yeah. Yeah. We’re never alone. Here’s my bottom line. In my experience. We are never, ever alone on this earth. We’re surrounded by what I’ve come to call and visibility’s. And that’s my term for the whole collection of stuff that that which includes angels. And they have jobs. So then another time in my own house. There’s a woman by the name of Elisabeth Kubler Ross, you know, her? Yes. Well, she was a good old friend, actually. She was a mentor. She, okay. Yeah, she put me on stage with her. Many, many times. We were beds. Well, she was in town and came over for dinner. And it is so she said the I have this antique dining room set that my grandparents had. stole from them when they replaced it basically. antique chairs, antique table, and Elizabeth in place of honors at the end, and we’re about to eat and Elizabeth starts disappearing. She had a little thing anywhere where she was she’s deceased now, just tiny woman.

And I watched her just kind of slowly disappearing. Tables like what the heck? Well, the chair was breaking, displaying out Wow. But it was enough to attract angels. And all of a sudden I see her surrounded by angels Hmm. Tending to her. Just again in protection. Well, she didn’t bump her head. And those are like angels in my home and in my very own residence, and that was mind blowing. So that was another first and Elizabeth packed a punch whenever she spoke and I can assure you she was missing. Ever on stage alone, hmm. She, she packed angels that woman, they, I don’t know if they were attracted to her energy, or they were her guides or what? But when I told her about it, she said, Well, what do you see? And I said, Well, I didn’t know it’s a test, but it was a test. I should bring you up all kinds of memories from me. I Miss Elizabeth, by the way, but anyway, I said, Well, you know, I’m looking around, and it’s easier for me to see angels out of the sides of my eyes, like, you know, if I look directly, they kind of move off to the sides of my eyes again. So I learned in that moment to do what i to the state called Angel vision. But I kind of if I just sort of let my eyes relax and not really see anything, yeah, there’s something in front of me.

Brian Smith 50:58
I gotta focus

Kim Clark Sharp 51:00
Yeah, yeah, that can

Brian Smith 51:02
go out of focus.

Kim Clark Sharp 51:04
Yeah. out of focus. Thank you. You’re giving me good words. Um, yeah. So I just Yeah, yeah, just go out and focus then I can see. So I said, so I just did that for the first time deliberately to see an angel, relax my eyes and didn’t try to scare anything. I said, Okay, well, they’re really big. And they look tough. And, and they, they’re not white. I can see through them. And they might have wings or not, and they’re definitely wearing robes. And then I mentioned their big pension, they look rough. They look rough and tough. And she didn’t say things like that. I thought, well, there goes that friendship. Yeah, I even say anything. But later I learned when after she had processed it, that’s exactly her perception. That huh? She had Angel guides, and that they were big. And they were tough, huh? And then she also said, I know your angel guide was like what? Yeah, by name? Wow. Yeah. More of a guide less of an angel. But I said, well, that’s got to be one. Tough Angel too. So yes, about my, what I sense is that I’m surrounded at all times by 13 to 25. Angels. Hmm It’s weird. It’s a it’s a big pack. But I also think I’m super high maintenance. You know, I have this scenario in my head of angels going Oh, no, don’t send me to the Kim. No, no, I’ll be good. I’ll be good. No, no. So I’m a what I generate that needs that much. But I must generate a lot more Had it there. And Mike says those right now. I have around you right next. I’m like in that.

Brian Smith 53:08
So you you said so much you don’t necessarily see them?

Kim Clark Sharp 53:11
No, I The last time I saw an angel, I was pregnant. And I was at a piano concert, it was over Christmas with a friend. And all of a sudden on the piano concert began and there was an angel sitting on the table, like was gonna burst into song in a nightclub, you know, like, like, feelings. I mean, you know, what’s the angel do on the piano? Like, what that I hadn’t seen before? Well, I turn to my friend and went, Oh my gosh, is an angel a pet? No, but I can still sense the angel. I couldn’t see with my eyes. What the heck. And that was the last time I ever saw an angel with my Right. But and that’s been 30 years. Mm hmm. Um, but I think it’s because I was about to be a mom for the first time. And what I’d be a good parent if I were distracted by seeing angels, I think now. So I think as long as I’m in mom mode, I don’t need to see the angels. But what was never taken away from me was the perception of them. So I can perceive them all over the place I walked in, not that long ago to another Intensive Care Unit waiting room where someone I knew was husband was time and didn’t know her well, but I was sent there by the social worker, she was all alone, so unsure and I walked in and then it burst out with oh my gosh, there’s three angels here because again, I’m like, I can’t, you know, I can’t not react. Yeah. And um, she said that Really she leaned into it, she’s What do they look like? And I described what I described is when they’re when they’re one or above you, and there’s just three and she was blown away. Her husband did die. years past she got back to me and said, you know, since then I’ve been to a number of readers and people, and she said, every last one says, you know, you’ve got three angels around you. So I want to let you know, because you were the one who started that. So that was validating and like anyone I love to be validated. Yeah, um, but there are times when angels have been around me that I haven’t received it but others have. Also interesting yeah, I’m one of those times was when the baby that I was trying to deliver didn’t make it. And that’s a that’s a tough time. Yeah. And I was very upset. And in my real time, I was just uncontrollably crying. I just was sobbing. I couldn’t reply hearing, you know, would be going home with the baby. Yeah. A friend of mine in Hawaii called me a few days later, she had no idea I was even pregnant. You know, we just said, you know, this is before cell phones and FaceTime, zoom calls and all that. And she called me She said, I had a vision, and I decided to share it with you even though you’re not gonna believe me. It’s really crazy. But in revision, she saw me in utter blackness just completely dark. And I was pretty much promised I was on my knees bent over and crying really hard. And she didn’t know why. She just saw that I was very upset in the dark. She said, floating down really Slowly one by one where she said definitely like females but they were angels. They were like maternal in their vibe so to speak. And they were floating down low nightlights and they kept floating down and they had wings floating down and floating down with the soft lights until I was completely buried in them. Hmm. And there was just a soft glow coming through their bodies and their wings. She said, she said, What the heck’s going on? And then I told her and then she went into shock

Unknown Speaker 57:38
a while.

Kim Clark Sharp 57:38
So so one time I had no no possible way of of, I had no idea and then another time when also I was really upset over a loss someone else perceived angels around My loss was my own health and breast cancer. And I had at that time eight to 10 months to live and because of my near death experience, I’m fearless. But again, I was also a mother. And someone else mailed me again, someone who did not know I had breast cancer, but wrote me a letter with a diagram of angel she saw around me but she said it’s funny thing, I couldn’t get anything below your chest. In the sketch, somebody would stop my hand, and I could draw the angels and she did. But again, she didn’t know breast cancer, but this would not come out of her pen. Wow. So but I also was completely unaware of angels. So then there are times when I have been the angel and that is Cool. Yeah, I think we’re all capable of being angels in the right circumstances. One time was can you stand these stories? Are you still with me?

Brian Smith 59:11
I’m still with you. Yes, absolutely. Okay.

Kim Clark Sharp 59:13
I don’t even know what our time is or anything. I’m just we’re getting close. Okay. Well two more stories. Okay. I had gotten gas in town I used to be young Go figure.

Unknown Speaker 59:25
Yeah, we all

Kim Clark Sharp 59:29
better air. Yeah, and I’m pretty cute. I’ve been getting gas you know the gas station in Seattle. By harbor view. And I pulled out of gas station and this guy right up and said you have a flat tire you have flat tire like so pull into the dark alley. Of course it had to be an alley it had to be dark. Even though it was evening. It wasn’t nighttime quite yet. I pulled in and I got out of my car to look at. You know what tire is flat. And I see this guy approached And I thought, okay, I don’t have any flat tires, and we’re in a dark alley, and he’s going to assault me. There was no question, huh? No question. And for anyone who’s has four knowledge of an inevitable assault is a dreadful place to be. Yeah, that one. And all of a sudden, something came over me where I felt like I was the angel. And as he approached me with the worst intense I just felt like I became an angel. And I loved him and I began to speak to him. I said, God loves you so much. I just kept saying that God loves you. So I was filled with love, and I loved him. Hmm. And he got the full blast of that angelic feeling of Love, and he stopped in his tracks. And I had the sense that he had not felt loved in a long time if ever there was something so new and so good for him while he just stopped because other than I just opened my car door got in and drove off and left in there like this like I’m used to being wow that to God loves everybody have a funny story if we have time. Another time I felt like an angel. It was in Las Vegas. She with Elisabeth Kubler Ross back to that, you were I told you she brought me on stage a lot. So she was there for a big convention and, and I was her opening act so to speak, but my husband was off teaching her how to gamble. And I went into the restroom and there was a woman on the floor. a hot mess. I would say she was a woman at the night. If I met you, yeah. And miserable, and crying, all crumpled up on this bathroom floor, and I responded to her, and by the way, I was wearing all white. And I had this gold and white, shiny shawl.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:21
No one so that

Kim Clark Sharp 1:02:22
I can have a look like an angel. And I bent over her and asked if I could help. And she looked up and said, Are you an angel? And I said, Yes. Right? Isn’t that what I was? Yeah. And she needed to get the heck out of dodge. And she wanted to go home. She lives in Tennessee. She’s here. And I’m I can’t even leave this restaurant without being watched. She was in trouble. So I left with her daughter to the train station. I wasn’t going to give her money. Yeah, that would not have been Her pocket for her. Yeah. and saw that she was safely on the train. And wave goodbye. And she I’m sure it’s off telling everyone that she had an angel encounter. Yeah, he did. It was me.

Brian Smith 1:03:13
Well, an angel is a messenger from God. So yeah,

Kim Clark Sharp 1:03:17
we’ll see again, good words, Brian, you’re just

Brian Smith 1:03:20
doing it for me today. We could all be angels in a certain respect.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:24
So what asked you,

Kim Clark Sharp 1:03:26
I gotta say one more thing. I have loved patients who also thought it was an angel because my hair was built their authority. This is how my hair goes. Order. It’s, you know, fair fossa, heavies angel wing, here it is. And in my hospital, whites and my blonde angel hair, leaning over a patient with the lights behind me. Many times I was asked if I was an angel investor, except for that one time in the bathroom and then the other time with the guy. I would just ignore your social

Brian Smith 1:04:00
Yeah, I want to ask you a couple more questions. One is, how do you how do you use your angel experiences to help people that are in grief?

Kim Clark Sharp 1:04:09
Oh, well, I think I’ve already done it here, even just telling stories and assuring people that we are not alone. We may not be able to perceive anything but there is not a human being on this planet that is unattended and that whatever the course of life is, what we have contracted with, you know, whatever your philosophy is about why we were born and just brought up another children’s angels story in my head. I have so many stories, Brian, anyway, that we are guided, we are protected. Sometimes though. This is what I am sharing you what I tell people. Yeah, but sometimes there are some angels. Their job is to stick their Angel foot out in tribus so that we can learn together Up, hopefully. I so ages have functions. I don’t believe in praying to an angel. If people say can I talk to my angels? My advice is no. Talk to God. And God will provide what you need in your life, your awarenesses and your sensitivities and your comfort. And I don’t know why I say that I just kind of

Brian Smith 1:05:29
Well, I think that’s an interesting point you bring up some people do deify angels and I hear especially especially we’ll talk with the arch angels know Michael Gabriel and stuff like that. And I think that people do tend to maybe prayed to these to these beings so that’s an interesting point.

Kim Clark Sharp 1:05:44
Yeah, I I like to leave it up to what I call God. Yeah, that’s there’s other disabilities too. There are deceased loved ones. That’s a whole other show, bro. Yeah.

Brian Smith 1:05:56
Yeah, I would love to do another web to do another episode cuz I want to talk about that.

Kim Clark Sharp 1:06:01
Yeah, so there’s there’s all kinds of ways to provide comfort. And because of that groundedness that I reintroduce myself with i can i can come across as authentic

Unknown Speaker 1:06:13
if I choose to do and

Brian Smith 1:06:16
yeah, you know, big round is overrated because the idea of being grounded me, you know, it’s like there’s there’s grounded and then there’s woowoo. And that’s just not the case. It’s just these realms are talking about an extension of the realm that we all live in that most of us can’t perceive most of the time, but it’s very, very real.

Kim Clark Sharp 1:06:38
It’s a vision to you know, like it’s, you know, some people can see things

Unknown Speaker 1:06:47
Yes,

Kim Clark Sharp 1:06:48
that other people can’t all the time, and artists can see the art before it’s completed. Since I’m a meteorologist can read The weather. Yeah. I mean, we’re, we’re perceiving things all the time at such a rapid rate. So why not in disabilities?

Brian Smith 1:07:09
Yeah, well, and they’re invisible to our normal vision. So, you know, we can only see a very small percentage of the of the light spectrum anyway, I mean, a very small percentage. So it’s quite possible that they’re just operating it in a frequency that we can’t perceive with our normal eyes.

Kim Clark Sharp 1:07:25
Oh my gosh, you’re good. Yes, absolutely. I’m absolutely also, um, I think that we entertain angels as well. I think it’s possible to crack an angel up. I can’t tell you why I think so. But I think there is loving humor involved to like, I don’t know I I just know they’re all around us. They seem to have different jobs. In my perception. They’re big, but I have a stepdaughter who in middle school was with her birth mom, rest in peace. But she was, had a big fight with her mom and run upstairs to her bedroom. And she said that she looked at her bedroom window on the second floor and there is this huge Angel looking in the window, standing on the ground, and she freaked out. But then the room was filled with like little angel babies that she she said, my little cherubs Hmm. And the room got filled and she was so at peace. All the anger and frustration that she had had this big fight with her mom. Mm hmm. And she Junior High h female

Brian Smith 1:08:39
did

Kim Clark Sharp 1:08:40
have a lot of drama, feelings and all that. It just completely went away. She was calm, and felt loved. She grew up to go to the Marine Corps. She said three deployments to Iraq went to Afghanistan. She knows she’s surrounded by angels. Hmm. So here Now someone who grew up to be a tough marine and yet knew because of that experience in junior high that there were angels around her and although she had some perceived Of course she’s never forgotten it. Yeah, it’s helped her on a battlefield. Three times. Volusia was one of them. Wow. You know, you know, that’s huge marine battle in Iraq. So it’s just comforting. So that’s that’s to answer your question in a very roundabout way. I just tell people stories. And, and they believe they don’t, they don’t Yeah, matters not, but it does bring comfort.

Brian Smith 1:09:42
Yeah, I think so. You know, it does bring up and it’s a tough question that I know you don’t have the answer to because I and I work with a lot of people whose children have transitioned. And they’ll be like, Well, why did this person get an angel to step in and stop the saxophone from happening but my loved one did. And that’s that’s a question that I think people often ask when we say we’re protected. But I guess for me to answer my own question, I think that we all have to leave this world at some point. So at some point, you know, they’re Angel by Baylor to take us home.

Kim Clark Sharp 1:10:18
Yeah. At the recent virtual conference for the International Association for near death studies was the keynote speaker by the name of Anita moorjani. And she talks about exit points. That’s one thing she returned her death experience. We go through life, we can exit here exit there, and we’re making unconscious decisions sometimes. Yeah. About we’re going to exit or we’re going to keep on the highway. But I’m reminded of another angel story. I could just build a little campfire clip. Here you go, and I wouldn’t mind. But speaking of car accidents, this is an adult in a terrible car accident in this Bellevue Washington which is east of our city, and this made the papers because it was a seven car pileup and all but two people died. So, mass casualties big response big headlines in the paper. Well, this guy finds his way to the Seattle International Association for near death studies dandelions, which I lead, and said that we already shared a story we all remember the incident. But he said that while he was he was injured. But while he was in his crunched up car, he could look out and he saw tubes of light going to infinity coming out of every single vehicle, but his car and another car that had a woman in it and within those columns of what are angels taking People out up to this tube of light to someplace. And it turns out they were the only survivors. Yeah. At the accident.

Brian Smith 1:12:11
They both. That’s extremely comforting. And I think that’s something that everybody can take with that we’re never alone as you said, and for people whose loved ones may have transitioned that we wonder, okay, did they die alone? What? No. Are they okay? Were they were they comfortable? Were they comforted? Were they scared? I think that answers all those questions.

Kim Clark Sharp 1:12:33
Yeah, I would say on a spiritual level, not at all. Yeah, they were comforted. So we’re the bereaved, but in our bereavement like me bent over crying when a woman Hawai was having a vision of, you know, these maternal kind of anxious floating around and envelop me with light. We may not be aware of it in our grief, right? But they’re there for us. They love that. Yeah.

Brian Smith 1:13:02
That that I think it’s a great way to end. I really enjoy talking to you. We could do this all day. So I really appreciate you doing this. It’s very, it’s comforting for people to know. So any anything you want to say before we close

Kim Clark Sharp 1:13:19
out, um god bless you and keep you and may angels watch over you. Awesome. Awesome. Thanks a lot, Kim.

Brian Smith 1:13:30
You enjoy the rest of your day.

Kim Clark Sharp 1:13:32
Thank you, YouTube Ryan. Bye

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

I’ve been following Bernardo Kastrup for a few years. He’s a brilliant man with PhDs in both computer science and philosophy. His books “Why Materialism Is Baloney” and “More Than Allegory” have literally changed my life by giving me a deeper understanding of the origins of Everything.

Bernardo Kastrup’s work has been leading the modern renaissance of metaphysical idealism, the notion that reality is essentially mental. This idea might seem for us born during this age of materialism. But, the idea is as old as mankind. It’s what every religious tradition has always taught. What Bernardo brings is a logical way of coming to these same revelations.

Bernardo has a Ph.D. in philosophy (ontology, philosophy of mind) and another Ph.D. in computer engineering (reconfigurable computing, artificial intelligence). As a scientist, Bernardo has worked for the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) and the Philips Research Laboratories (where the ‘Casimir Effect’ of Quantum Field Theory was discovered). Formulated in detail in many academic papers and books, his ideas have been featured on ‘Scientific American,’ the ‘Institute of Art and Ideas,’ the ‘Blog of the American Philosophical Association’ and ‘Big Think,’ among others.

You can find Bernardo at:

www.bernardokastrup.com

 

 

Transcript:

 

Brian Smith 0:00
Hey everybody, it’s Brian. I’m back with another episode of grief to growth and today I’ve got with me one of my heroes, Dr. Bernardo kastrup. have to admit I’m a little bit nervous about interviewing Dr. cashier because I’ve been reading his books and watching him on YouTube for quite a while and finally got him here with me.

I wanted to introduce you guys to an idea called idealism. And we’ll get into that what that is in a minute. But I want to first start with a quote by Dr. Kastrup. He says, Let there be no ambiguity here. It is a direct and unavoidable implication of my worldview, that your consciousness, your subjective experience of being here right now. We’ll survive bodily death. So I want to read his bio, and then we’ll get started. Dr. Carson’s work has been leading the Modern Renaissance and metaphysical idealism, the notion that reality is essential and mental. He has a PhD in philosophy, ontology philosophy of mind, and another PhD in computer engineering reconfigurable computing artificial intelligence. As a scientist Bernardo has worked for the European Organization for Nuclear Research, otherwise known as CERN, and the Philips research laboratories, where the Casimir effect of quantum field theory was discovered. formulated in detail in many academic papers and books. His ideas have been featured in Scientific American, the Institute of Art and ideas, the blog of the American Philosophical system.

ideation and Big Think among others. His most recent book is the idea of the world, a multidisciplinary argument for the mental nature of reality. For more information for freely downloadable papers, videos, etc. Please visit his website Bernardo Kastrup calm that’s Bernardo BR and AR do Castro cacher k str. up.com. And with that, I want to welcome Dr. Kastrup. To grief to growth. Thanks for having me. burnings a pleasure. I have to tell you right up front, I just said I’m nervous about interviewing you. I’ve been following your work for a while. But I will tell you I don’t know a lot about philosophy I’d never read or I don’t think I’ve ever read a philosophy book until I read your book. Why material? materialism is baloney. And frankly, I look at philosophers and say they just tie themselves up in knots. You know, there’s a guy that says, I think, therefore I am and I’m like, why know that I am. I don’t need philosophy for that. And I hear Daniel Dennett, say think come to the conclusion that consciousness is as a as a fallacy. It’s just a artificial

construct. So, when I read your books, it really they really grabbed me you know this idea of material or of idealism. So could you explain to me what is idealism?

Bernardo Kastrup 3:12
idealism is a metaphysics like materialism, is it a hypothesis or a statement about the nature of reality about what reality essentially is? Which is to say more than to say how reality behaves? The latter is what science does science studies the behavior of nature if you do this and that, how will nature reply by manifesting a certain behavior that that’s what an experiment is, philosophy goes a step further, once we know how nature behaves, what inferences what best guesses Can we make about what nature essentially is? Today, we hardly give it a second thought, because the idea of metaphysical materialism the notion that reality is essentially material in order in other words, something outside and independent of conditions.

It’s so ingrained in the culture that we take it for granted. And very people, very few people know how precarious this idea is how malformed and untenable it is. So there is an open playing field and I think idealism is the best hypothesis for what reality is it basically says that reality is mental. It’s not in your mind alone. It’s not in my mind alone. It is out there beyond our personal mind. But it is mental at the transpersonal level. Yeah, and I think that’s, it’s interesting, also, because it’s it I was, I was reading your bio this morning. It says, you’re leading the Modern Renaissance of idealism. And I think some people times we think materialism has always been the paradigm, we’ve always thought that everything is just material. And that’s not true, is it? No, that’s not true at all, no, for most of human history. That was not the paradigm, arguably, not even the Greek atomists who were credited with having created materialism. Arguably even

They were not metaphysical materialists. materialism has become a mainstream metaphysical view, only from say the latter parts of the 19th century onwards. So it’s a phenomenon of the last 150 years. Some started thinking about it more seriously back in the 17th century, but it wasn’t mainstream for a long time. So it’s for the past century and a half that it’s been mainstream. So you have PhDs in both computer science and philosophy which one came first? Computer Science came

19 years First, the earlier Okay, and then we’ll get your idea what got you interested in philosophy? I you know, I by temperament, I was always a philosopher. Since I was a kid. I always like to think about the big questions, you know, What is life? Who are we what are we doing here? Where are we going to go? What is this all about? What’s the point of it all? I did Computer Engineering first.

Because it was also a passion like philosophy, but it was a passion that gave me a better chance of securing some financial stability in my life.

So that was my first PhD

in philosophy, I started writing books and doing philosophy for many years. I do it for several years now, as a sort of a my second life I used to be in the corporate world until until very recently now I’m a full time philosopher. And I did philosophy as the extra in my life. And at some point that I realized that I had published so many academic papers, so many so much technical material, that I could just put it together and get to PhDs in philosophy, so I got one. Yeah. So was there a shift for you when you when you just started to discover that idealism was was the way to go where rather than materialism? Yeah, that was a big thing. Because then I think like you

Most of us, when I was in academia studying doing research, I wasn’t materialist, by default, an unthinking materialists. I was materialist because everybody around me was a materialist. And I didn’t give it a second thought I was busy with other things that have a scientific nature. In other words, I was busy investigating how nature behaves.

But at some point, I was doing some research on artificial intelligence. And then it’s very easy to go from artificial intelligence to artificial consciousness in your own mind. Because you build a computer that behaves intelligently and you start wondering, Well, what would it take now to make it conscious, not only intelligent, but to have it data processing the component by experience just like the data processing in my brain is accompanied by experience. And I started posing these questions to myself and tying myself up in knots because it just doesn’t compute this idea of creating consciousness out of something known

unconscious, it’s any any possible breach to make. And then I read a paper by philosopher David Chalmers years ago, in which he articulated the key problem that I was struggling with which today is called the hard problem of consciousness, which basically states that there is nothing about a material arrangement, in terms of which we could deduce the qualities of experience. There is nothing about the position and momentum of the atoms in my brain, in terms of which I could deduce what it is like for me to have a bellyache to fall in love or or taste a strawberry is an arbitrary bridge. And then I woke up to the idea that I was making a wrong but implicit assumption I was assuming that consciousness is the derivative phenomenon, and matter is the primary one. So you start from there and you get consciousness, but I never examined that assumption. Once they started examined it, bam, it was very quickly arrived at

Conclusion and it was a wrong assumption, it was the wrong logical step to take and it created all the problems that subsequently became obvious. So reverse that. And I realized that it makes a lot more sense, more sense to think of mind as the primary. And everything that is created is created within mind by mind, not my personal mind alone, but mind as a substrate, mind as a framework as a scaffolding, the essence of reality. And therefore you don’t need to create consciousness you can modify consciousness by, you know, interfering with the brain and doing all that you can change the configuration of consciousness, it can change the patterns of excitation of consciousness, but all reality unfolds as patterns of excitation of a transpersonal form of consciousness, and everything started falling place. And since then, I’m trying to communicate that and I’m not trying to convince people but I’m

inviting people to have a second look at this knee jerk assumption that we make in our culture that matter comes first and consciousness next, invite people to consider the possibility that it may be the other way around. And that’s all empirical observations can actually be understood as supporting this this distance that mind is first. Yeah, it’s a big shift, I guess. Because I think a lot of times when people think of and we can interchange terms mind consciousness, we think Well, okay, where did consciousness come from, but I have my consciousness and, and all we know is our own consciousness. All we can know as our own personal experiences. That’s all we have. We know what’s going on around us. So I think we assumed Well, there must have been some matter first, and then the matter became conscious and people don’t even realize that that’s an assumption in itself. And it’s consciousness you’re talking about it’s not a personal consciousness like my consciousness but it’s a it’s a greater we might call it God might call it source, the force, you know,

something of that nature to kind of get our minds out of just like it’s this little thing that’s in my head. Yeah, surely a mine in your personal consciousness have come into being at a certain point when we are born. And surely our personal consciousness consciousness will cease to be personal at some point because at some point in the future, we will not be personal agents anymore. So I’m not claiming that our personal consciousness has existed forever. I’m not a solid system. I’m not saying that my reality is your personal dream.

But our personal consciousness exists in a broader context in a in a within a broader mind, and it forms and dissolve in that broader mind. That’s the claim. Yeah, well, and in the book you go into like, there’s our personal consciousness and there’s our personal unconsciousness or you called obviously obfuscated conscious, which we’ll get into with why you choose to use that term, but then there’s also the greatest

consciousness that we’re all a part of. So it’s for people. It’s just I’m just trying to help people make this shift from consciousness just being what’s going on inside my head to consciousness being something that’s, that’s universal. And that matter, as we perceive, it rises out of that, kind of like when we dream at night that we create these characters in our dream, we create everything in our dream, through our own consciousness. Yeah, and I talk about consciousness as a type of existence.

For instance, I know that you are conscious, but I don’t have access to your personal consciousness. Yet I grant that it exists. I believe that it exists. In doing that I grant that there is consciousness beyond my own personal consciousness. We all do that. There is nothing counterintuitive about it. There is consciousness out there in the minds of other people, other animals and whatever. The claim I’m making is that even things that are known living or even the inanimate universe, as our

Hole, eat two exists in a form of transpersonal consciousness. So you have to grant that, that there is this transpersonal consciousness out there. But that’s not much more difficult than to grant that another person is conscious. Yeah. And I think that’s, you know, interesting when we talk about consciousness or life being almost like a dream, which you use a lot of allegories, which you kind of have to write because to get to this stuff we really can’t talk about through direct experiences. As you mentioned, in the book, we can only talk about the objects that are being experienced as opposed to the experiencer. So when we say that life is like a dream, it doesn’t mean like it’s like one of our dreams, where it’s arbitrary and ephemeral. It just kind of you know, it’s all crazy. We grant that there are constants in the universe, for example, that are but they’re a part of this overall mind. Is that correct? Yes, I grant that there is a world out there and we are immersed in that world.

We inhabited. And that world would continue to exist, whether we are here looking at it or not, I grant that. The only claim is that common shared world is mental in essence, and it presents itself to us in the form of perception, the things we see, hear, taste, which are themselves experiences, perception is experiential in nature. So the claim is, the contents of your perception are they appearance, the image, the representation of something that is really out there beyond us. But that’s something that is really out there is consciousness is those are experiential states that present themselves to us as matter in much the same way. As your experiential states. Your conscious in their life presents itself to me as a matter the matter of your body, your brain, its brain activity, my view that’s just the extrinsic appearance, the image of inner

experiential states, they just present themselves to me on my screen of perception in the form of matter. And then I extend this claim, and I say the universe, the inanimate universe as a whole, to present itself to us as the matter that we call the inanimate universe. But from its own first person perspective, it is experiential in nature. Yeah, and I think that these are really important concepts. And we and I hear, I’ve heard some of this coming out of science, like, we live in a simulation, or we live in a projection or something and you talk about, you have a really great analogy, I think of the cylinder projection, right? That if you look, if you take a cylinder, and you look at it from the side and make a projection on the wall, it looks like a square like a rectangle. But if you look at it from the end, it’s a circle. And so when we’re trying to describe this ultimate reality that that lies beyond what we can perceive. We can perceive it in different in different ways, but we’re kind of like a, like a derivative of it. I guess.

Polling is something that is by definition, almost by definition, ineffable, because our language has evolved for very practical purposes, you know, to the point where the food is to tell where danger lies, which anymore can jump on you and kill you. So the language has evolved for very pragmatic reasons. It didn’t evolve to talk about

what is transcendent, to our sense perception. So from that point of view, you’re bound to use metaphors. And sometimes people think that if two metaphors contradict one another, then one of them has necessarily to be false. Maybe both, but at least one of them seems to contradict one another. But that’s not necessarily the case. Because metaphors are not literal. It’s just like the shadow projection of a cylinder. Both are correct. Somebody will see the shadow of a cylinder and we’ll say it’s a circle. Somebody else will say it’s a rectangle. Oh, they contradict one another. So one is incorrect. No, both are correct, because at a higher level the reconcile but that time

leverages transcendence so it’s very difficult to talk about, which leads to all kinds of confusion.

But maybe we don’t even need to go to this transcendent space to to adopt idealism as the most plausible and fashionable view. Because, look, there is no question that mind is capable to generate an entire world on the screen of perception. It happens every night when we dream. I have had the privilege a few times in my life to have lucid dreams. And I always the first thing I do is, Oh, I know I’m dreaming now. Can I tell from the resolution, the vividness of what I’m seeing and perceiving around me that it’s a dream. And then if the attention, no, it’s crisp, the resolution The colors are vivid, it’s very autonomous, it seems to have a life of its own. And at the same time, I know that I’m dreaming because I remember having gone to bed. So because of my continuity in the continuity of my

memory. I know that the times are me, but I can’t tell it based on my perceptions in the dream alone, I know that it is my mind that’s generating all this stuff that I perceive around me in the dream. I know that it’s a part of my mind that I am dissociated from. So it looks like me inhabiting it and I am not it. During the dream, you think you are the dream avatar. But in fact, you are the one mind that is doing the Avatar and doing everything else in the dream as well.

So the we know that minds can do this and the only jump you have to make is Can it be doing this right now? Are we avatars of a dream of a dreaming mind right now? And if so, how can we explain that we are all seemingly having the same dream or at least mutually consistent dreams? Because you you will also report seeing cars and trees and stars and whatnot. And that’s consistent with my experiences.

So there seems to be a collective collective level of mind that we are dissociated from during the dream. In other words during life, which is generating this imagery for all of us. Yet even that is not very difficult to imagine because when you’re dreaming and you’re lucid in your dream, you know that it is a dissociated part of your mind that is generating the rest of the dream. And yet it feels so external to your dreaming avatar. So it is not countering to it of idealism, actually, nature is giving us floods of suggestion hints and evidence that this is what’s going on. But you’re stubborn. We get all tied up in conceptual abstractions, and then we lose touch with what is really right, right there under our noses.

Brian Smith 19:44
Yeah, you touched on that. And I think that was another brilliant thing I loved about the book, you talked about how basically, the universe nature is all a metaphor. It’s all showing us something that that can’t be really expressed in words. It’s all metaphorical. And you mentioned one of my things

Favorite philosophers actually do know swedenborg one of my favorite theologians philosophy room, a column, and he talks about correspondences. And in the latter part of more than that are in latter part of material why materialism is baloney. You talk about how, you know, really, if we wake up and look at the world, it’s always delivering messages towards just like the symbols on the dream.

Bernardo Kastrup 20:21
Absolutely. There is a famous quote, well, I’m not sure it’s a famous quote, but it is my favorite quote of an Indian Sage called and these Agata Maharaj, who lived in the 20th century even

Unknown Speaker 20:37
you he said

Bernardo Kastrup 20:40
it to see the world is to see God. There is no seeing God apart from the world. To know God beyond the world, is to be God. So, basically, what he’s saying is that the world around us that we perceive is how a human Universal Mind presents itself to us. It’s the appearance of that universal mind from our perspective from across the dissociative boundary. And that’s it all you have to know about that Universal Mind. It presents itself to you in the metaphorical way that we call the physical world. And to know more about it beyond its representation, its appearance, its extrinsic image, you have to be it. And it is possible to be it I think, because one day, the dissociative process that maintains our individuality will end we call it death. And maybe we merge back into that and then we get to know it from a first person perspective, as opposed to a third person perspective. So what many traditions are hinting at not only nisargadatta but swedenborg that you talked about? Schopenhauer, one of my favorite philosopher is just wrote a book about him. He talks about view in representation. So he says the world as it is, as it is in itself, as from a first person perspective, is a wheel. In other words, volitional experiential states. That’s why that’s why the universe is moving, going somewhere doing something. But that will present itself to us from a second or third person perspective. In the form we call physicality for Schopenhauer that’s representation. The physical is a representation of endogenous in their experiential states, volitional states that just present themselves to us in the form that we call the material world. From that perspective, matter is a metaphor for whatever is going on from the first person perspective, in just the same way that our patterns of brain activity are a metaphor for how we feel from within.

Brian Smith 22:51
Yeah, you know, I want to get into some of the things I was I was listening to your book earlier this week, so I don’t normally read it. I was listening cuz I wanted to get through it before our interview. You talked about it’s there’s just so much stuff that explains that just not explainable in other ways. And you talk about consciousness and which I kind of touched on before, and what people call the subconscious, but you call obfuscated kind of consciousness, because nothing is really outside of our conscious, and I just had to stop the recording. And just, I had like a five minute lecture with myself because I was like, I don’t want to forget this. So explain what it is that what’s the difference between what’s in our consciousness and what’s the absolute greater part of our consciousness.

Bernardo Kastrup 23:29
So, the word consciousness is used in many different ways, even by philosophers themselves, and there is a reigning confusion about what any one person means, by that word, at any one instance. To be very explicit and unambiguous. When I use the word consciousness, I mean what philosophers call phenomenal consciousness. In other words, if there is something that is like to be you, anything doesn’t matter what then you are calling A conscious state is a state in which there is something that is like to be. If there is nothing, it’s like to be in a state, then it’s non conscious. If there is nothing, it’s like to be a computer, then the computer is not conscious. If there is nothing, it’s like to be a dead person. And that person is not conscious, which of course immediately raises the question. Is that the case? I don’t think it is. But this is what we mean by phenomenal consciousness. If there is experienced any, it doesn’t matter how simple you don’t need to have higher level mental functions. None of that you don’t need to self reflect the need to be self aware. Now, if there is an experience as simple as white and black, warm or cold, that’s already phenomenal consciousness and that’s what I mean by consciousness. But in even in colloquial use in our senior science of consciousness, some people use the word to mean something a lot more restricted. What they mean by It is what should be called meta consciousness. Now, consciousness is something you have when you have an experience. Meta consciousness is something you have when you both have the experience and know that you have the experience. So, meta consciousness is conscious meta cognition, you not only have an experience you, you represent that experience to yourself. Let me try to illustrate it even better. We say I have pain, or I have hunger. We when we say that that’s an expression of meta consciousness. If you were not met the conscious but only conscious what you would say is, I am pain. I am hunger, because there is no distinction between the experience and the subject of the experience to say that you have pain you have to pull yourself out of the experience and contemplate your own experience at a meta level, that is meta consciousness. Now, what I would say is that we need meta consciousness even to report to ourselves that we are conscious. Otherwise we wouldn’t be able to report that to ourselves. So you would have experiences but we wouldn’t know that we have experiences. Yeah. Because of that when we study consciousness, or when we introspect into our own consciousness, all we can report is the contents of meta consciousness. The stuff that you can self reflect about, yeah, the stuff that escapes the reach of meta conscious introspection may still be experienced, but you will not be able to report it even to yourself. Let me give examples again. Some people have been without being aware of their pain. You may even ask them, are you paying attention No. But then at some point later on, they realize that actually, they were in paying all that. That’s the moment when they become a method conscious of me. Before they were having the pain and they know it in hindsight. Another another thing that everybody can relate to. Were you conscious of your breathing? 10 seconds ago? Were you experiencing the inflation of your of your of your chest, the movement of your diaphragm, the flow of air through your nostrils? I would say you were conscious of it. But you only became meta conscious of it the moment I brought your attention to it.

Brian Smith 27:39
Yeah, right.

Bernardo Kastrup 27:41
So my point is, what many of us call consciousness is actually only meta consciousness. It’s just a tiny little bit of consciousness. But because we call it consciousness, we think that it’s the hole. We created words to refer to the rest as subconscious or unconscious even psychologists did that Carl Jung, Freud, they all talk about the unconscious. My point is the unconscious is not unconscious at all. It is conscious. It is just not meta conscious. And we don’t see it because we can’t report it to ourselves and because we are so enamored, so involved with our own method consciousness, which is a sort of it just evolved with ourselves, with our own pains with our own worries with our own wishes, with our own needs, with the things that we fear and reject. We are so enamored in this narcissistic loop of meta consciousness that it obfuscates everything else if we could just turn down the volume on this meta consciousness, be a little less busy with what we can introspect into and just become receptive. Boy, you would find out so many things that are going on in consciousness, but we can’t reports to ourselves. You think Most people would be amazed how much is going on there? Yeah, I

Brian Smith 29:03
love the some of the analysis you gave in the book you talked about like effect. If you’re in your car and you’re driving, and you get home, you don’t realize how you got there. You’re obviously conscious while you were driving or you wouldn’t gotten home, but you just weren’t aware of it. And you talked about the self reflective thing, which actually amplifies these certain things, which kind of makes everything else stamping out. So we can’t perceive it. And you gave a great analogy there of the stars during the day, we can’t see the stars. And I started thinking about things. I work a lot with people like who are intuitives, who people who are meetings, for example. And they’ve done studies on them when they’re actually in a trance state, their brain is kind of turned down. And I’m wondering if that’s what it is. That’s what allows that to come through. That’s actually available to all of us, but it’s just being obfuscated by everything else is going on in our heads. Yes,

Bernardo Kastrup 29:49
I think well, there has been neuro imaging studies showing that that’s what actually happens with trance mediums their brain activity decreases. Significantly, if you pretend to be a medium, your brain activity will increase. But people who seem to be authentic trance mediums their brain activity reduces I think this has two effects. One is it reduces the obfuscation if you’re not so busy with your own narcissistic, you know, thoughts states emotional states, suddenly, more stuff begins to come into focus in your peripheral vision. You see that with the corner of your eyes. It is a metaphor and I’m talking about a mental process. But it is as if the obfuscation in the center of your field of view reduced and suddenly you realize that there is a lot going on in your peripheral vision that suddenly you become receptive to and alert to. The other thing that I think’s going on and they may be the same thing. I’m not sure is that I think normal brain activities what a dissociative person

says in a universal mind looks like it is the representation the appearance of a dissociative process we are associated alter personalities have a universal mind. And that dissociation looks like what we call living being a body with its ordinary brain activity. I think if you can reduce your brain activity, or at least those parts of patterns of brain function that correspond to this to the dissociative process itself, you reduce the dissociation, the dissociative boundary becomes more porous, permeable.

Brian Smith 31:33
Yeah. And you sort of go beyond your own individual self and you experience things that are out there all the time, but which you couldn’t reach because you are dissociated from them. So, I think both play a role in this. Yeah, I wish I had so much more time with you. But I you know, the thing is, your book also describes because we hear through a lot of religious traditions that we’re all one and you hear people that have indies that come back and say we’re all one people.

What does that really mean? through all the metaphors you use in your book in terms of us being consciousness or individual conscious being like a whirlpool in the stream, or ripples on a thing of mercury or the membrane? We’re all we’re all part of this one thing at a substrate level, but we feel differentiated because of our ego. And because of the self reflection that we’re doing, it cuts us off from the experience of the other person. Is that is that a good way of putting it? We’ll get back to grief to growth in just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian is an author and a life coach? If you’re grieving or know someone who is grieving his book, grief to growth is a best selling easy to read book that might help you or someone you know, people work with Brian as a life coach to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers at www grief to growth com www dot g ri f the number two gr o w t

Announcer 33:00
h.com or text growth gr o wt h 231996. If you’d like to support this podcast visit www.patreon.com slash grief to growth www.trn.com slash g ri e f, the number two gr o w th to make a financial contribution. And now back to grief to growth.

Bernardo Kastrup 33:28
Yes, of course this is a conceptual narrative. For most people, even the ones that buy into this conceptual story, which I think is accurate. I think it’s a correct conceptual story as conceptual stories go. They still have a very hard time sort of really grokking it really internalizing this oneness. Because even if I say, as I normally do, when you die, your consciousness will go nowhere. It will stay exactly where it is right now. You will not Brian anymore, it will be something a lot broader. And then people still can’t help but think Yeah, but but then that’s not really me. Because what I am is Brian. Yeah, but I am is this body limited in space time. So when we say that your consciousness will survive and you will still be what you are if people don’t really feel it, they understand conceptually because of all the metaphors even buy into it. They give themselves intellectual, intellectual permission to consider this a serious, plausible hypothesis, but they don’t feel it in their bones. Right. And, and it’s a pity because what I really mean is that it’s really you to survive. And in the same way that it’s really you that wakes up from the dream. When you wake up from a dream in the morning, you don’t mourn the death of your dream avatar. Do you not realize it you realize it was me all along. Didn’t know it’s during the dream during the dream I thought I was a dream avatar inhabiting a world. Now I woke up now I know that I was doing the whole thing the dream Avatar and the world. Hmm. So your dream avatars toast is dead? He has fast. Yeah, but he’s anybody mourning the death of your dream avatar. Of course not. Because you realize it, it was just a trick, an illusion, a dissociative process in your own mind. So that part of your mind is identified with another part of your mind. In other words, the part of your mind playing the dream avatar became alienated, dissociated from the part of your mind generating the rest of the dream. You thought I am the Avatar and the world is something else. But guess what it was you doing both all along? When you wake up, that’s playing abuse, and there is no problem when you realize it was really you. You are the one who was the Avatar and you are the one who continues to exist after you woke up. If people could just internalize that it’s exactly The same thing that I’m trying to say happens when we die, then it would be more than a conceptual story. But it’s very difficult to get this point across, you would have to have a major direct experience of a transpersonal state to realize that hell barn it’s really me. Yeah, it’s really near what’s going on here. It’s very, very, very hard to say. It’s so close to your core. It’s so intimate. The thing that survives it’s so close to you. So essential, so, so intimate, that you don’t see it. It’s under your nose. If you don’t see it, you miss it altogether. It’s a pity.

Brian Smith 36:39
Yeah, I think you do such a great job and it helped me because I thought, okay, if my ego goes away, then I go away. I am my ego. And you do you get some really great thought exercises. Like Imagine if you if you didn’t have your name, or if you lost a limb, would you still be yourself and you go and if you’ve lost your memories, you’d still have that perception of yourself. So what I got out of was when we when we die, our egoic structure, as you put it in this metaphor kind of unravels, but the core that’s still us is still there. And when that structure unravels, it actually gives us access to or being blocked off from now, that explains me some of the near death experiences people have when they say, well, suddenly I was one with everything, or I knew everything there is to know I hear so many people said, I knew everything there is to know. And that’s because all that information that we’re all gathering is all out there. And I love what you said, we take it with us, you know, so it’s like, we lose this when we go.

Bernardo Kastrup 37:38
In the same way that you don’t lose the memory of the dream when you wake up. Well, sometimes you think you lost it, but actually, it’s there because you may remember it days or even years afterwards. The experiential contents of our individual life. I don’t think they stay because where are they going to go? I mean, what’s going on in his mind, one mind, so where are they going to go? They have no where to go. It’s just the the narrative of self that changes during your dream. In your dream avatar, you have a narrative of self and implicit one, you identify with a part of your dream and not with another. When you wake up you realize that how it was just you well along your narrative of self will change but your core subjectivity, what Schopenhauer called the one eye of the world that looks out from every creature that is one and the same everywhere at all times. It goes nowhere because it is that within which everything happens, including birth and death, so where is it going to go? Yeah,

Brian Smith 38:43
I said I was I was I just actually finished the book up for I read it before but I was reading again, you know, getting ready for the interview to just finish it up this morning. And I just, that helped me like so much to understand that you know, not only am I not going to lose anything when I when I my body dies, but I’ll actually Gain, because all these memories, all these feelings, everything we have, it’s still there. We just don’t have access to it from the limited perspective we have. And so that that what we call death actually can open that up. And that’s been like a second kind of reinforced by people who have had near death experiences.

Bernardo Kastrup 39:16
Absolutely. I mean, the the metaphor of a life review, I think that’s a metaphor because I think it’s much more than than review. It’s probably, you’re living it again, or you’re leaving it in the only way that you have ever lived it. It’s just presents itself to you in a different from a different angle. Maybe. If we could remember everything we’ve ever experienced in our lives, we would be absolutely and completely overwhelmed by richness. So much, so that would become completely dysfunctional, where we just lie in in an ecstasy of emotions of every kind. So we didn’t evolve to experience that we have evolved to let things go. So you remain functional. But I would say that once we are dead, and these evolved mechanisms are no longer playing a function, because they evolved within dream the dream is over so so art mechanisms I think we would be overwhelmed by the richness of our of our lives.

Unknown Speaker 40:25
Yeah, that’s what

Brian Smith 40:27
Yeah, I think that’s that’s right. There are people that can actually remember almost everything and they usually go pretty much insane. People that if you give them a time and date, they can remember exactly what was happening that time of date. And it’s, it seems to be more of a curse than than it is a blessing. So there’s seems to be something about this, coming into the separateness, this this individualization, that causes this not only forgetfulness of our own personal past, but forgetfulness of where we came from.

Bernardo Kastrup 40:55
I think life is what dissociation in the universe is Wind looks like. So it’s not caused by dissociation. It’s not it’s just what dissociation looks like. And in the same way that flames are what combustion looks like, in the same way that lightning is what atmospheric electric discharge looks like. Atmospheric electric discharge doesn’t cause lightning combustion doesn’t cause flames. flames are what combustion looks like lightning is what discharge looks like. Life is what this association in Universal Mind looks like. It’s just the appearance of it. It’s the image of the process. So by definition, if this is correct, by definition, yes, life is intimately tied with a sort of a separation, a forgetting a dissociation from the transpersonal contents of consciousness. So it’s a experiences that go not only beyond your present moment in life, they span your whole life, but they span the whole life of every living being that ever existed. Plus the life of transpersonal states that have never been part of a living being that ought to be very overwhelming, and not conducive to the continuance of life. I think if you were in that state continuously, you wouldn’t even try to survive. And survival would become such an insignificant pixel in the whole image of universal experience, that you would not try to survive. Therefore, life didn’t didn’t evolve to give you access to those states. Because if it did, you would die and you wouldn’t pass on your genes. Right? So that’s the nature of the game. We’ve evolved in order to forget, because that preserves our ability to function.

Brian Smith 42:53
Yeah, it’s such a success. I read your book and you know, people talk about the purpose of life, you know, Why are we here? And, and you know, what I kind of got out of it is, you know, the experience, not only because we think of ourselves as I’m a person, I’m separate from you. I’m separate from everyone else. But this really this idea that we’re all connected to this one, you know, great mind and all having these experiences that contribute to the hall as a notional. I found in a couple of books, there’s a woman named Natalie suchman, who had a near death experience and her experience, she actually goes and she kind of reports back to this, this team of beings, it’s really interested in her experience. And I’m reading a book right now called the team. That’s kind of the same thing. So we’re all here. So I got the same theme from from your philosophy that we’re all experiencing life from individual points of view, but we’re all sharing it at the same time.

Bernardo Kastrup 43:54
You’re hinting on the notion of a to lose a purpose to this all right. Yes. I am not sure there is a premeditated purpose, but I do think there is a natural purpose. And if I look at, based on my own philosophy, if I look at what actually then should be happening is that birth is the beginning of the dissociative process sort of isolates a part of mine from the rest of mine, much like it happens during your dreams, part of you gets isolated from the part of mine that conjures up the rest of the dream. But because of evolution, the evolution of life, these dissociated segments of mind has evolved. Some mental abilities that may be were not present there from the beginning, for instance, meta consciousness, our ability to meta cognize our own experiential states to be self aware to identify ourselves as subjects of experience. In other words, we aren’t our experiences we are dead Which has the experiences, that’s a major leap. My cats are their experiences. They’re not looking in the mirror and thinking or feeling kind of bored. They know they know they are in the flow, instinctual flow of experience. And I think that’s the original state of the universe. But because living beings is neuro dissociated fragments of the Universal Mind, have had to evolve within a planetary ecosystem. And to survive, they have had to develop new cognitive skills, new cognitive abilities, that has led to meta consciousness because for survival, it’s extremely useful. If you can recognize yourself as a separate agent that has a vested interest in survival. Now you can premeditate you can plan you can coordinate activities, all those things that that have made us the dominant species on this planet. So all very nice, but there is something you get along with that. interval evolved for it, but you’ve got along with it, which is your ability to think about mind, your ability to not only be mind but to ponder mentation to form their mind to ask the big questions. I suspect these was the implicit tailors the implicit goal in all this game. And so we accumulate metacognitive insights and meta consciousness insights during life, but we are dissociated so those insights remain with us. But you know, when we die, by definition, death is the end of the dissociation, we sort of released that into a broader field. And you could think of no better metaphor, I don’t want to go there. But I don’t think any of our insights are ever lost. They are just released into a broader context, when we pass by the nature of the thing.

Brian Smith 46:55
Now, this is interesting. I found this in your book. So I want to ask the question. So we see We say at a death the death of the body we are our egoic structure unravels at least somewhat, but we still maintain our individual identity. But you said that birth is the beginning of us is that is so it does do we begin at birth or do we maybe began before birth?

Bernardo Kastrup 47:19
I don’t think what we really are has ever begun is that within which things begin and end. But, you know, one hypothesis is that there is only a universal mind that dissociates when it dissociates life happens, and when life ends, it’s the end of that particular dissociative process and then it goes back to the Universal Mind. So, there are only two levels either we are individual living beings or we are oceanic mind. it is conceivable that there are levels in between that there is a hierarchy of dissociation so when you die, you don’t become the oceanic mind in one go again, you fall back into brother left But also still individual differentiated or individuated. At some level, maybe not a single person, but still differentiated from the rest. It is possible. I don’t know whether we have strong enough empirical reasons to think that that is the case. I know very serious people who are convinced that there are enough empirical reasons to to categorically state that this is the case that you don’t cease to exist as an individual agent, even though you’re no longer an individual person. I’m open minded about that. I think the jury is still out. But if you ask me, do I find it important? Not at all. I don’t think it’s any more important than whether you should mourn the death of your dream avatar when you wake up. Because if it is the case, that there is a hierarchy of this of dissociation, then there is a hierarchy to To dream, there is a hierarchy to the illusion but what is really, really, really going on is there is only one subject experiencing, experiencing itself through multiple points of view. And it is this distinct point of view with that, that arise from dissociation that leads to the illusion of individual agency separateness differentiation, but it is ultimately an illusion. So, for me, it’s not very important, although I know that for many, many people, it is important to to think that some form of indeed individuation of differentiation, persist. And it’s very possible that that’s the case.

Brian Smith 49:44
Yeah, I think there’s, um, I’m not a philosopher, of course, but I think there’s evidence for it, you know, from from mediumship. For example, when they tell us they’re communicating with an individual consciousness on the other side, and the consciousness is still the same as they were when they were here. From their death experiences, even when people And merged into the one. They’re like, but it was still I used to have one is you right?

Bernardo Kastrup 50:05
So but the one is the AI. Exactly,

Brian Smith 50:08
yeah. But they still had that individual perspective, I guess. But you know, it’s it just got out of friend. She had a near death experience and we were talking about reincarnation. And she said, I’m not sure if there’s reincarnation or not. She said, I saw all these other people. But she said, I was so close to them, like the sharing thoughts and everything that I couldn’t tell whether they were me or I was them. There you go. There you go. Yeah, there you go.

Bernardo Kastrup 50:36
What can I add to this? I would just plant another thought in your mind if I may. I’ll try to Yeah. Along with Emmanuel Kant and Arthur Schopenhauer. I also think that space and time arm is our cognitive scaffoldings. They don’t exist out there. They are categories of perception. They are modes by which we know things, we learn things. And we can organize our knowledge we need extension, we need a scaffolding on which we can hang pieces of knowledge. So we can organize them in a way that makes sense. So I think space and time are not objectively out there. I think what’s out there is mind outside space time. In space time is something we create as part of the dissociation in order to try and make sense of what’s going on. It’s our own category of perception, built by nature, but it is illusory. If that is true, and out there, there is no space and time. And there is no sense in talking about what happened before somebody’s birth of or where the person is after the person has died. Because this is all time dependent. This is all time language, spatial temporal language. And if it’s true that this is just in our cognition and out there, there is no such a thing, then there is no sense in talking about the end or the beginning of anything.

Brian Smith 52:09
Yeah, I think that’s a really, really good point. And I think the dream analogy kind of helps with that, because we realize this world to create our dreams, we would never say the space or time in our in our dreams, but we perceive it. Or when we’re playing a computer game, you know, our character, the pixels are running across the screen, there’s no space or time in a computer game, but the character can move in space and time. So those analogies helped me because that’s a really difficult thing. When people say to me, you know, space and time we’re just an illusion because I experienced it every day.

Bernardo Kastrup 52:39
Our our way of thinking our language is our assumed space and time it is impossible to talk coherently, without implicitly assuming space and time. It’s built into language. When you talk about the separation between subject and object, that space built into it. When we conjugate a verb in different tenses, past, present and future. I was there I am here, I will be somewhere else. It’s built into language, space and time. So it is hopeless to try to reason outside space and time. All we can do is to abstract the possibility that it’s not really out there that there is no space and time out there. It’s like It’s like a record when you play a record it plays in time, but the information is all there at any one point. Yeah, so here we are playing the record because it helps our cognition. But the idea of there not being space and time, it’s like the record, everything is out there. But in the now and there’s only the now it’s like the record all songs on the record at all times. Actually, arguably, this is even one of the implications of Einstein’s theory of relativity, the blocked universe hypothesis, because time becomes relative to an observer. You’re sort of forced into the idea that everything that has ever been easily will ever be, in fact is, it exists as the block universe and time is just how you traverse that block. It’s how you slice that loaf of bread. That’s time but the love is there at all times the block universe. I mean, at all times here, I’m talking about time again. Yeah. There. Yeah, the love exists, period. Anything else I see about it is about how we traverse the love. It’s already already has a space and time scaffolding built into it. So it’s very difficult to talk about it in explicit, literal and accurate ways. But the whole idea of the end of personal identity is associated with this limitation of our cognition, we have to think in terms of space and time. So you have to think in terms of beginning and end I want to suggest is that this may not really reflect what’s going on. Whoever was is or will ever be his, his period. Yeah.

Brian Smith 55:07
Yeah, I think that’s a great way of looking at it and putting it. I want to touch on one more point that you brought up in the book that that was really interesting about freewill. And I just watched a series on TV called devs was on Hulu was really, really interesting. These because these guys are like the universe is deterministic period. There’s no such thing as freewill, you just you start it it’s a chain of cause and effect. And and that’s it if we had a big enough powerful computer, we could predict you know, everything we could projected in the forward and in the future and in the past. And you brought up freewill and it’s just how you talked about First of all, we can never really experience it, which I never thought about. I never know but I’m making a choice until I’ve made it but also the freewill is maybe outside of our material universe.

Bernardo Kastrup 55:54
This is a nuanced subject. When we when we talk about free, we will let you know our intuition. We don’t mean by free wheel that our choices are random. Right? our choices are not random. They are determined by our tastes, preferences, predispositions, predilections, you know, things that we are. So our choices are not random, they are free. But by being free, we don’t mean that they are random. But they aren’t determined either, right? Because otherwise there wouldn’t be freewill, right. So, the problem is, there is nothing in between randomness and determination. There is no semantic space in between these two concepts. So what we mean by free wheel are determined choices, but choices that are determined by debt with which we identify, in other words, choices determined by us by that which we consider ourselves to be. The problem is we don’t identify To find with patterns of brain activity inside our scope, because that’s an abstraction, we don’t identify with that. So if somebody tells you that your choices are determined by patterns of brain activity in your skull, it violates your sense of freewill because that’s not how you see yourself. What you think of as yourself, are your felt predispositions, your felt preferences and tastes, your felt preferences and tastes, not neurons firing inside your head? I don’t think there is a contradiction here because neurons firing without within your head are just what your felt preferences look like from a perspective but they are the image of the process, not the cause of the process. So I think if there is only one Universal Mind by definition there is freewill in the sense that everything that’s chosen by the Universal Mind is chosen by itself. There is nothing beyond it. You see I’m not free free to choose if there are outside forces that impose a choice on me. If I cannot choose my favorite job, because there are economic pressures for me to pick that one instead of anything else, then I’m not free to make the choice, because there are external forces that impinge on me and force my hand on making the choice. But at the level of the Universal Mind, there are no external forces. There is only it it’s the one thing that’s going on, so even to talk about for you, loses its meaning. Because whatever choices the Universal Mind makes, they are determined, they are determined by the Universal Mind by the inherent preferences and predispositions of the Universal Mind, which arise from the fact that the Universal Mind is what it is. It’s just what it is. It can’t help being something else it is what it is. So he chooses according to what it is, according to how it fused what he prefers. First and so forth. So, yes, it’s free but at the same time, it’s fully determined. It’s determined by what it is. So the whole talk about Free Will I think sort of dissipates into a semi semantic void at that level now the question is this free will exist at our individual level? There is tricky I also don’t think that’s very important and I’ll tell you why. This your dream avatar have free will.

Unknown Speaker 59:29
No, it doesn’t

Brian Smith 59:31
seem like oh, we’ll write Yes, my well Yeah, it does. Yes.

Bernardo Kastrup 59:34
Yeah. So we your dream avatar was an illusion. How can an illusion have freewill? Right. It’s not what’s going on. It’s an artifact of thoughts. Right. So I think that’s exactly what’s going on right now. So I don’t think we have freewill. But we don’t exist to begin with a cognitive hallucination. At the same time, I could say in full confidence. Yes, we have free will. What we really really Are which is not the Bernardo and Brian and somebody else what we really, really are as free will? what we think we are doesn’t? It can’t it’s an illusion. Yeah, that’s not even there to begin with. How can it have anything? It’s not there?

Brian Smith 1:00:15
Yeah, that’s a really great point. So I one last thing I want to touch on is your book more than allegory? Because for me, you know, I, it was really interesting how you basically said, we have to have allegory, because there are some things we just can’t talk about with, with our language limits with the limits of our mind. And for you really redeemed for me a lot of these things that we say are just allegories just, you know, it’s just a, it’s just a fictional story. And I gotta give you the last part of more than allegory, you could be a fiction writer, it was really, you, you created this, this this new allegory this new, as you call it, a religious allegory that people wouldn’t recognize as religious. So if you could just finish by talking about that, I’d appreciate it.

Bernardo Kastrup 1:00:57
About to the third part of that book,

Brian Smith 1:01:00
Apart from the book and about the whole idea of allegory,

Bernardo Kastrup 1:01:02
okay. We are so used to this unexamined assumption that language can point to the ultimate reality literally. And he never stopped to think that there is no reason to believe that the cognitive apparatus of primate evolved the very peripheral planet on a peripheral Solar System probably didn’t evolve enough to pin down the literal facts of reality. I mean, we are deluding ourselves. It’s like, if a mouse would look up to you and say, I think I can solve the grand unification theory problems. I mean, you would laugh at that mouse, the mouse just doesn’t have what it takes to figure that out. I think we are the mouse in another frame, in other in another. from another perspective, we are the mice and this man. We think that we pinpointed the literal facts of reality. Of course we can’t. Language didn’t even evolve for this. I think allegories, myths are very important because they admit that they are not pointing at anything literal. They are not telling you look, this really happened. As I’m saying, if you interpret an allegory or a myth like this, you’re flattening it. You’re making it a pancake instead of the rich, three dimensional thing that it’s meant to be. What they do is they point your mind in a certain direction, such that you can pick what to pick up what is really going on with your peripheral vision. You know what I mean? Yes, absolutely. So they guide you to look here, but what they want to show you is not that it’s what you can pick up with your peripheral vision, if you’re looking more or less in that direction. And I think that’s what myths do. They they help us pick The real nature of reality, what is really going on with our peripheral vision. But for that it’s important that we keep in mind that we shouldn’t take it too literally because to take it literally is to kill it. Yes. And we should keep alert for what’s going on in our peripheral vision, when we indulge ourselves in a myth, which I think is something that we would benefit from doing a lot more than we do today. We’ve lost respect for myths, with with associated myths with fiction. That’s not what they are. It’s not fiction. It’s it’s, it’s a metaphor. It’s a symbol. It is pointing at something that is true and nonfiction, but it’s doing so indirectly. Through a what Peter Kingsley would call

Unknown Speaker 1:03:52
what’s the word he used?

Bernardo Kastrup 1:03:55
A form of incantation Hmm. It’s an incantation. And that’s the value they have, if we receive them, take them on board, as that incantation that makes make something appear within us, as opposed to pointing our eyes to something that exists out there. They turn your eyes somewhere. But by doing that something appears within you that was not in the words of the myth. It evokes that within you. And we’ve lost that ability in our society, which is a phenomenal pity.

Brian Smith 1:04:33
Well, I think most of the problems of our world and all the problems are real can be pinned to the fact that we don’t know who we are, that we have this materialist mindset that we think we’re meaningless cosmological accidents were random, random configurations of atoms and molecules. We, we were born and we’re going to die. So I really, really appreciate the work that you’re doing and I appreciate it from a philosophical question. With a scientific perspective doesn’t require me to have any faith in anything. I can just look at this and you can read yourself through it. I can only read a little bit at a time because it’s so it’s so deep. I have to like I have to sit and reflect on it for a while, but just really understand what I’ve just read. Are there any Is there anybody else is doing what you’re doing that preaching the message of real idealism? Oh, certainly.

Bernardo Kastrup 1:05:23
Okay. Certainly I’m trying to bring them together and okay becomes more visible. But you know, this message is not is nothing new. It has been around for at least what 3500 years. The the original scriptures behind the Vedas were passed on the first time. This is an intuition that has been in the human species since the dawn of our species. When we were connected to the ground of reality, we knew it. We were not metacognitive of it. We didn’t know that we knew it. We knew it. And now we got lost in a conceptual story. So now, it has become a discovery. Nothing is being discovered here. Yes, the raw, primordial reality, to which we have always been connected by our umbilical cord, it’s the ground from which we arise. So deep within, at the core of our being we all know and have always known it. But there are other people making it explicit. Some of them are quantum physicists, and they use the language of quantum physics. Some of them are analytic philosophers, and they use the language of analytic philosophy and reason logic. Others are philosophers in the continental tradition, and they use completely different language to talk about the same things and you can look at the phenomenologists at the constructivists it’s very different language. They’re saying the same thing. And then there are the spiritual guys the new advice, the non duality guys. They’re saying the same thing, Robert spyera, IBS Shanti. These guys are all saying the same thing with different metaphors, different language, different references that they substantiated differently. So it looks like a call funny, have different messages. But if we can really go past the appearances and really grasp the underlying meaning, man, everybody’s saying the same thing. It’s it. It’s all over the place. If we have the eyes to see,

Brian Smith 1:07:28
yeah, just just in the last couple of weeks, I was just fumbling around the internet, and I came across something from the Khan Academy. And this guy was explaining Hinduism. And when he starts off with Brahman and Atman, and and Maya, it was like, This is the same thing. Bernardo is saying, it’s the exact same thing and it’s Hinduism, which is what 5000 years old, I don’t even know but

Bernardo Kastrup 1:07:50
yeah, but you have to you have to have the eyes to to go where the myth wants to take you because you’ve interpreted literally you just say, oh, Hinduism is a politics. Religion many gods. No, it is not. And they’re quite clear about it there is only Brahman there is only one thing going on. And everything else is generated for Brahman within Brahman in a, in a fin tastic strike of cognitive hallucination that that’s basically what it’s saying, in mythological form in the language of the people of the time, the time when it was written today, we can’t read it in that way. Because you see, those myths were written for people who could only understand things symbolically, the idea of a literal truth didn’t exist. That’s not how the human mind worked. Originally, we sort of invented it the past few centuries, this idea of something literal, isn’t is fresh, it’s rather new. We naturally think by analogy. In other words, we think symbolically, yes. And these texts were written to be read that way because when they were written, there was no other way to read it. was the only thing the only game in town. Now we created this distinction metaphorical and literal. And it got lost in that. And we think that those were just myths, or just just fictions they weren’t.

Brian Smith 1:09:11
Yeah. And that’s a big mistake we make even with the Bible, which compared to those things is relatively modern. But people read the Bible as literal. And if you can step back and take a metaphorical view of the Bible, it’s so rich. You talks about God coming into his own creation through Jesus, and how that lines up with all the other religious allegories or myths,

Bernardo Kastrup 1:09:30
and things like the book of Job that’s rich, the book of Job, I mean, that’s subject for a lifetime of meditation, if you can read it, in the way it was meant to be read, which is not as God literally torturing for a job, right? for no reason. Right? Just because the devil dared God to do it. No, no, no, there is something much deeper going on there. That speaks to what we are.

Brian Smith 1:10:00
Yeah. Well, I want to thank you very much for doing this. As I said, it’s been a thrill for me to sit down and have a conversation with you. I’ve learned I learned so much from your books and your lectures and encourage people to go to your website. It’s Could you give your website again, please? One word Bernardo kastrup. With a cake kastrup.com. And from there you can go everywhere else on social media, videos, papers, essays, books, everything. Yeah, you’re doing fantastic work. So I appreciate everything you’re doing. And thank you for your time today.

Bernardo Kastrup 1:10:31
Thanks for having me. Brian Smith.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:33
You have a good evening. You too. Take care. Bye.

Brian Smith 1:10:36
Bye. That’s it for another episode of grief to growth. I sure hope you got something out of it. Please stay in contact with me by reaching out at www. Grief to growth calm. That’s grief the number two growth com or you can text the word growth to 31996. That’s simply text growth gr o wt h 231. 996 so if you’re watching this on YouTube, please make sure you subscribe so hit the subscribe button and then hit the little bell here and it’ll notify you when I have new content. Always please share the information if you enjoy it that helps me to get more views and and get the message out to more people. Thanks a lot and have a wonderful day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

 

My long time friend, Dr. Mark Pitstick, and I had a wide-ranging chat on the nature of reality, the purpose of life, what awaits us after our physical body dies, and new develops in the field of technology, in particular, the SoulPhone, that will provide “proof” that we continue after our physical body ceases to function.

Mark Pitstick, MA, DC, has over forty-seven years’ experience and training in hospitals, pastoral counseling settings, mental health centers, and private practice. His training includes a premedical degree, graduate theology/pastoral counseling studies, master’s in clinical psychology, and a doctorate in chiropractic health care. He also has provided suicide prevention counseling and education to many people.

Mark became aware of clairaudient experiences at age ten and has since been blessed with numerous miracles, revelatory, and spiritually transformative experiences. After working in hospitals with many suffering and dying adults and children, he was motivated to find sensible, evidence-based answers to the questions that many people ask: “Who am I? Why am I here? What happens after I die? Will I see my departed loved ones again? Is there a God? If so, why is there so much suffering? and How can I best live during this brief earthly experience?”

Mark has written numerous books. On his website, you will find documentary films, CDs, and experiential workshops that address all of these questions and help you survive and even thrive through life’s biggest changes and challenges. Further, his work helps you discover how to enjoy the greatest life you have envisioned—no matter what your current circumstances.

Mark is also the Director of the SoulPhone Foundation.

You can find Mark at: ℹ️ https://www.soulproof.com

 

Transcript

 

Announcer 0:00
Hi there. Welcome to grief to growth podcast. Your host is Brian Smith, spiritual seeker, best selling author, grief survivor and life coach. Ryan believes that the worst tragedies of life provide the greatest opportunity for growth. Brian says he was planted, not buried, and he is here to help you grow where you’ve been planted by the difficulties in life. In each episode, Brian and his guests will share what has helped them to survive and thrive. It is his sincere hope this episode helps you today.

Brian Smith 0:35
Hey, everybody, this is Brian Smith back with another episode of grief to growth and today I’ve got with me Dr. Mark pet stick who’s actually a really good friend of mine. I’m going to read Mark’s introduction, a short introduction. He’s got a very long, very long resume already short introduction, then we’ll have a conversation. Mark Pitts tick has over 47 years experience and training in hospitals, pastoral counseling settings, mental health centers and private practices. training includes a pre medical degree, graduate theology, pastoral counseling studies, master’s in clinical psychology, and doctorate in chiropractic healthcare. Mark has also provided suicide prevention, counseling and education to many people. After working in hospitals with many suffering and dying adults and children, Mark was motivated to find sensible evidence based answers to the questions that many people asked. Just a little things like Who am I? Why am I here? What happens after I die? though? I see that my departed loved ones again. Is there a god? If so, why is there so much suffering? And how can I best love during this brief earthly experience? Mark has written many books documentary as produced documentary films, CDs, experiential workshops, that address all these questions and help you survive and thrive through life’s biggest changes and challenges. And you can find a lot more about mark at soul proof comm where there’s there’s some of that information. So Mark, welcome to grief to growth.

Mark Pitstick 1:55
So now I know Brian

Brian Smith 1:57
Yeah, I just said you know, try to go through your resume and through your entire background. you’ve, you’ve done so much. You’ve seen somebody, you know, you read, you’ve just made a great contribution. So where does it kind of start? Where did this this drive for you to explore the big questions of life? Where did that start?

Mark Pitstick 2:15
I think as part of my soul’s mission, my parents tell me that when I was six years old, they were showing me a beautiful sunset. And I told him, it reminded me of God. Now, we went to Lutheran Church, it was always God, the Father this and that, you know, they’re big paintings. He’s a white guy with long hair and beard sitting on a throne. So they were perplexed as to why would equate creator with the beautiful sunset. They only told me that, by the way, 20 years later, when I was in theology school, and there were a couple other events where people who could read auras or see energy or like oh my god, you know, I’ve only seen two of you in my whole life and they were in their 70s. And they said, You are Blue printer you are teaching so you’re the kind of soul that really comes to earth. And now I can see why. And, and you came here with big missions. And I said, Yeah, I mean I eat, drink and sleep it when I was a kid. It’s like I had to learn how to fit in how to be a normal Earthling. Because earthly way seems strange to me when I saw the Robert Heinlein book, Stranger in a Strange Land, like, that’s my life story. Yeah. So when I was 19, a couple things happen. First of all, I learned about yoga and meditation. And secondly, I started working in hospitals and pretty quickly got to the point where as doing almost all ICU, and er work cardiopulmonary resuscitation, breathing tube down the lungs, arterial blood gas punctures, pretty heavy stuff for 19, then 20 year old, almost every shift, I would be with one or more people who would, who died and seeing that, especially in the first time But with I had a pediatric ward, seeing little kids, you know, killed in accidents or sometimes abused. It just drove me to my knees and everything I’ve been taught, you know, God, God is all loving, all knowing all powerful, does sound like a whole bunch of BS. But it was a wonderful thing launched me on decades of searching. And now I feel like I have great answers, in many cases, evidence based answers to all the questions you posed in the intro.

Brian Smith 4:33
Yeah, it’s interesting because a lot of times when people find themselves in situations like that, it drives them the other way drives them to to materialism or atheism, where they say, well, there can’t be any meaning or purpose, because I see all this suffering. I think that’s kind of the easy, quick answer if that wasn’t satisfactory to you.

Mark Pitstick 4:50
Yeah, it’s kind of like we say in helping parents heal, you know, when something horrible happens, it can make you better or better. And in my case, I was a I call myself an agnostic, agnostic, because I really didn’t know. And that’s one reason I went to theology school instead of medical school because I wanted to find out for myself. What was the biblical history? You know, what was the early words behind some of these teachings? That didn’t make sense? You know, you shall fear the Lord that God and you got a loving guide who would let you or send you a fire eternal hell forever. Yep. Obvious discrepancies that most kids spotted and so that it makes sense. Yeah. So I searched and I actually kept cardboard boxes, everything I would read, think of here on the radio and so on. And finally, I had several big boxes of notes. And I thought I have a book here and that’s when I wrote the first book. So proof in the late 1990s.

Brian Smith 5:51
So it’s interesting. Also, you mentioned theology school, because I’ve heard for a lot of people that go to theology school, that’s what kicks off atheism for them. They become pastors, but they don’t really believe it. Yeah.

Mark Pitstick 6:03
Well, I would say and the men most that I’ve spoken to, they believe in a different kind of God here, they reject that day of steak primitive 2000 plus years ago image and see a more creative loving force energy. But how do most people without a background for understanding that? How do most people understand that they usually don’t have a support system for that? So they just know they reject the archaic images that don’t make sense.

Brian Smith 6:38
Yeah, you know, that’s, that’s really interesting thing as you were saying, I’m thinking about, but they’re still teaching it every Sunday, you know, for the most part, a lot of them are still teaching this guy that they really don’t believe. And frankly, it’s a very primitive view of God. It’s a very primary view. And, you know, as you were saying, how you felt growing up, that’s how I felt I was like, this world doesn’t make any sense to me and when I went I realized I was a separate being that didn’t make any sense to me. When I realized this guy was so angry, you know, why did why is he so mad at me? And you know, eternal hell? They’re like, Well, you know, you deserve eternal punishment just because of the fact you were born What do you know that I’d never understood that?

Mark Pitstick 7:19
Yeah, yeah Original Sin that’s another I’m gonna just like what I was blessed with Claire some clairaudient experiences I couldn’t make a living on it. But starting with a brown he ate, I became aware of voices in the first one was I was sitting with my family. My dad was the president of church Council. And we were very, very involved in the church. And the ministers talking about hell in the context of a fire eternal place at torment. For people who don’t believe a certain way or don’t do certain things. And this wise quiet voice that I’ve come to equate with the voice of God or spirit, I don’t see a disconnect between those two sets. Mark, they have that one a little mixed up. God has no need of such a place in his plan of salvation for all. So I turned to look at my mom and dad to see what they thought about that voice assuming that everyone in the church heard it. And they’re all just looking straight ahead, the Minister I was like, Okay, what just happened? Yeah, but I was cool enough to know to keep it inside. And then other similar teachings about the nature of heaven and everyone and having a high purpose and so on. So those formed teaching points have been trying to share with others and also trying to internalize you know, they say you teach most what you need to learn. So it’s been a lot of fun and we live in a, you mentioned the ministers, sharing just kind of what they’re taught. That was another one my insight. I thought, he’s just teaching. What he learned is like passed down and The nice thing is now 2020 we have so much contemporary evidence, scientific, clinical and a wealth of first hand experience evidence that gives us better notions and evidence, space notions for the nature of God, the nature of life, etc.

Brian Smith 9:19
Yeah, yeah, I think that makes perfect sense. And you are you’re fortunate are graced, I guess, to have that early, direct experience. For myself, that was a long traumatic journey, you know, out of that to where I am now. So you you. So let’s talk about some of these questions, some of these deep questions that you answer on your website, like, Who am I? Why am I here? So what’s your What are your thoughts on that?

Mark Pitstick 9:43
Yeah, short answers. First of all, we’re all we’re all beings of energy, consciousness, spirit, awareness. Those are different terms. I’ve learned so much from Dr. Gary Schwartz, as you know, former Harvard professor 10 dl professor, PhD in psycho psycho physiology now at University of Arizona doing the soul phone project research, he, he considers that we are beings of energy and information he calls it info energy. And from a quantum physics point from a systems theory point, you know people like Ervin Laszlo and him and others understand that everything that ever was or ever will be is stored in the zero point field, the quantum field. Hindu wise people 3000 years ago called it the Akashic field. And so that’s there and so that’s what we really are David boom, who’s gonna be a team members to the cell phone project, and was a close colleague with Einstein Einstein called him his spiritual brother. He was also boom Dr. David bone Bo Hmm, a mentor with the Dalai Lama who called him his science. cific teacher and a close friends with Krishna Murty, a prominent Hindu teacher. Well, he merged Hindu mysticism understandings with higher mathematics and quantum physics and he said that life is like a sea of energy. And periodically and that’s God, okay? Or that’s all it is whatever you want to call it. And periodically there’ll be a ripple of excitation on this sea of energy. Now depending on the observers point, that can look just like another while a great experience or it can look like for humans, most humans Oh my God, that’s horrible. You know, I’m looking at beautiful Shane it behind you. And I know it’s so tough, but the human reaction is, oh my god, my daughter died when in fact, nobody really dies. You are a soul mate. You are beings of energy. And what ROM das called the only dance There is this dance of energy, love life unfolding a series of adventures. So that’s who we are.

Brian Smith 12:08
Yeah, but that’s, that’s a great answer. I think that’s a and it’s interesting cuz I’m actually reading a book by a guy right now named Bernardo kastrup. And I’ve been trying to get him on my show, and I finally have him. So hopefully that’ll actually come off. And he talks about a philosophy called idealism, which as I’m listening to it, as I’m starting to understand, it sounds a whole lot like Hinduism. You know, the zero point field sounds a lot like Brahman, this concept of the potentiality that we in the in the West called no God, the source of everything that that is the is the what we all rise out of, and we’re all part of. So it’s really interesting.

Mark Pitstick 12:48
It’s fascinating and the more we understand about it, and the more we are free, I’m convinced that great teachers like Jesus and others, were teaching this very thing, but then the powers that be took hold of turn into a fearful controlling mechanism to win money from people and control them. So, you know, when he’s, there’s something called the Jefferson Bible and Thomas Jefferson had just the words that Jesus taken out. And that occurred to me when I was young. As I can know a lot of this that makes sense. But then when I read the words attributed Jesus, they make more sense. So he said, You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Things like we don’t really die. And I am the father one and so were you. Follow the golden rule and so on. Just really basic. But one of the things I like to add about who we are, there’s also the concept of multilocation. Some people may be familiar with it, too by location or parallel realities, simultaneous realities, and there’s some good evidence for it first became aware of it through Native American teachings. My dear friends are Native American teachers and oh my God, what a wealth of wisdom those people had had. We only honored it and learn from it instead of casting them out. Anyway. I saw paintings in profile of a brave, and then above the brave, a bear, and then an eagle, and then tree and star and moon, and then the cosmos. And that was their way of teaching that we’re not just this physical being like the brave. We’re all of that we can experience life. We’re all interconnected and so on. So then you have people like Michael Newton, PhD, founder of life between lives therapy, and he and his team have done I think 50,000 now different cases, deep hypnotic sessions with people as they have a chance to remember their time before they came to earth. You People from all over the world they certainly didn’t get together and, and correlate this and make up stories and their descriptions of life before live life between lives is very, very similar. Well, one of the reports is that on average, only 25% or so, of a person’s energy consciousness being so whatever you want, is needed to manifest in this time and place. The rest can be experiencing life through in different ways, formed or formless and part of it may never leave home. And so in that sense, we are always with God, we are always together. That’s one of the things I share. When I counsel, bereaved parents, I say, if you can wrap your head around it, at the same time you’re grieving, and I know it’s horribly difficult, but it can lightness some to consider and again, good evidence behind it, that you and your child might be together right now. And just very real sense as you were together before here, his or her body died, right? And you’re looking down at this and wow, you know, mom’s sure having a tough time with this. I hope she remembers, because we plan this beautiful adventure, that she can have a breakthrough move from a brief prayer to showing light parents, it’ll bless so many people and it’ll teach her lessons that serve her for forever. So that’s, that’s how far out who we are is.

Brian Smith 16:29
Yeah, that’s, you know, as we were going through that I was just interested me how faith you know, we’ll call faith, religion revealed philosophy, whatever you call revealed knowledge, how that’s starting to emerge, I think with what science is telling us Oh, and I look at scientists starting to finally catch up right. So these mystics have known this for a very long time we know it intuitively in our souls. And it comes up to her throat intellect and we tell it in stories and stuff, but this our with our Western mentality They are materialistic mentality. We’ve said, Well, no, that can’t possibly be true. And now we’re finally getting the tools to find out. Yeah, this stuff is actually really true.

Mark Pitstick 17:10
Yeah, I encourage people to look at the contemporary evidence. And I share a lot of that my book so approved, actually shortened. I also did in our book, greater reality living, to look at the, what Aldous Huxley called the perennial philosophy, the golden threads that run through all the major religions, some of which I just mentioned, and then also true trust their inner experiences, their inner voice, and I think the combination of all that, and you’ve got a pretty good grasp of the nature of reality.

Brian Smith 17:43
Yeah, we’re reminded I was talking with a friend the other day, who’s, I would say, agnostic, but more leaning towards materialistic and we were talking about death and she said, I fear not existing anymore. And I said, You know, I was telling I bored with Kelvin Chen Chen a little bit. And he wrote a book about overcoming the fear of death and the first belief system, he calls us, when we fear we’re not going to exist. But I said there well, it doesn’t logically make sense to fear that you’re not going to exist. Because if you don’t exist, you won’t be there to experience a non existence. But I think something intuitively tells us that we are eternal. And we and we and so when we, when we feel non existent, we actually fear is like being in a void, we think we’re going to die and not have any experience. I don’t think we can even imagine that existing.

Mark Pitstick 18:32
Well, we now know for your viewers, without a doubt that conscience is survives after violate that it’s not a question anymore. And so that’s just part of what we’re sharing. And we’ll be able to make that statement even more strongly and say, scientific proof in six months from now. So it’s a wonderful time to be alive. And I hope people use that information to to be free. To relax to enjoy life. There’s one other angle on that. So you know the concept that we create our own realities by our predominant thoughts, words and deeds. So people who believe that there’s nothing and have a certain fear of death, it’s going to affect them now. And perhaps when they pass on, that will be their reality for a short time. There’s some evidence that a person’s belief carries over at least initially. So they’d be like, Okay, well, I’m dead, and there’s nothing there’s nothing because there’s nothing after you die. And then wait a minute, who’s who’s thinking? Who’s talking? What’s that light over there? So it’s a lot of fun.

Brian Smith 19:43
Yeah, well, yes. I’ve heard people having their death experiences that do experience what they call nothing for a short period of time that you said then they just kind of come to the thought well, then if there’s nothing Then who’s thinking this? Yeah. But yeah, it’s you know, as we learn these things, you know, we can we can We can kind of chuckle about them. But it’s a real. It’s a real dilemma for a lot of people. It’s a real fear. And I’ve had so many people say to me, you believe all this stuff, there’s no evidence for it. There’s no evidence for mediumship there’s no evidence that we survive after we die. So what would you say to someone that says to you mark,

Mark Pitstick 20:16
why we just kindly say they’re not informed. And I won’t use the ignorant word, I would just say nicely, they haven’t taken the time or perhaps they don’t know where to get get informed. And again, tons of evidence, scientific, clinical and experiential. And let me break that down a little bit. Scientific refers to research is done in a university laboratory, using control groups. That’s replicated multicenter studies. These are all big words, but important, double blind conditions. And then the results are reported in a peer reviewed scientific journal, and then replicated by other labs that has occurred now in two areas. First of all, that at least some mediums are highly evidential and the real deal. And that’s reported in Dr. Schwartz’s book, the afterlife experiment, and collaborated by five different universities and four institutes. And then the second area that’s been scientifically proven is that life continues after bodily death. Again, that’s been definitively demonstrated scientifically in multicenter studies now, and getting ready to be at six different universities and institutes. So there’s no question about this, too, is that at least some evidential mediums are real, and they’re really communicating with, quote, departed people, and then life continues on. Then there’s clinical evidence, which are things like near death experiences out of body experiences, shared death experiences, after death, communications etc. So, that is research done by physicians, university professors and others in clinical settings, for example, can ring a good friend of mine, Professor Emeritus University of Connecticut, Kettering PhD, he and pmh Atwater have done the most research on near death experiences anybody on the planet. And after reading reports there, there are about 10,000 documented cases of MDS and by document he means this. While they’re clinically dead, their eyes are shut, they’re not breathing or their heart beat or their brain activities stop. Their consciousness nonetheless continued to see events inside the resuscitation area, after a while got bored down the hall on top of the hospital outside the hospital, later upon successful resuscitation without any exposure to family or friends from whom they could have learned these details. These people reported great details of what happened while they’re being worked on. A doctor bent over and his pen fell out of his pocket and rolled over toward the window. I mean, how can they know this an old tennis shoe on top? And again, if they’re one of those you could discount it 10,000 doctoring assembled a team of visual experts, ophthalmologists and so on. To look at the at this question, how do you see correctly when your eyes are closed and you’re clinically dead? By the way, Brian, some of these cases have occurred and people who are blind, some of whom are blind from birth, and these optical specially said, we have no explanation for unless indeed consciousness continues after bodily death. So I would say to those people, relax, give yourself a break, take some time, buy a few books, you know, visit my website, so proof calm you 70 free articles, lots of free radio shows with Wayne Dyer and Michael Newton and Brian Weiss made the best of the best. So take time to educate yourself but because you know, what’s the saying in the Bible sikhi first, I’m getting teared up saying it. So it must be important. Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all else will be added unto you. And so yeah, do that. I mean, skip a little TV for God’s sake. So what if you don’t know the latest going on with the Kardashians? educate yourself about who you are, why you’re here who walks beside you always. And then you can really enjoy life. It changes the whole game.

Brian Smith 24:43
Yeah, to be fair to those people though. We do have this this paradigm where we worship scientists and it’s actually some people call it scientism. We have this idea that you know, it’s gotta it’s got to come from a scientist and we have most of our scientists. I think it’s fair to say how A materialistic paradigm, and it’s almost considered ignorant to believe in the afterlife. And when I’ve when I’ve approached people I can think of one sincere person came to me. She was very agnostic, you know, pretty much atheistic, but she wanted to explore now that I give her full credit because she said, I think mediumship is fake. I don’t think it’s real at all. She said, Brian, tell me the best medium, you know, and I’ll go to them and I’m going to prove it’s fake. So I gave her the name my friend, Carolyn clapper. And she had a reading with Carolyn and Carolyn made her a believer. And so you know, and I’ve had people come to me into a Brian, there’s no evidence of any of this. And I’m like, like, you send the soul proof calm. Or I tell him about Gary Schwartz. You know, and they’ll I’m like, I read the afterlife experiments, what, 20 years ago, I think it’s been now right when it first came out and I was stunned that there was actually a researcher that had taken mediums and I don’t know how many blind levels it was three or four levels of blinding. Were the medium Never met the sitter. And then the person with the medium didn’t know who the sitter was. And a sitter didn’t know who the medium was. Nobody knew anybody. And these guys were getting evidence that you know, you and I would call proof Gary would say is a strong indicator, I guess. But you and I would call proof that mediumship is real.

Mark Pitstick 26:18
Yeah. 90% success rate for these mediums versus 23% for the control group, who didn’t have a least developed mediumistic abilities. And as you say, his research was observed by a team of scientists, magicians, videographers, no one can find a flaw in the methodology of the practice. Sometimes the mediums and the sitters were in separate rooms. The mediums didn’t even hear the sitters voice, the experimenter would answer back and forth for them. So yeah, it’s there’s no question about it. Well, isn’t it like a lot of things that we pay for not being open? You know, for example, let’s say A person was brought up thinking that you should only stay with people of your own color and everybody else’s bad. Well, if they believe that they’re going to cut themselves off from a wealth of potential relationships with people of all shades, same way people of different sexual orientation, religions, culture, so people with closed minds, who don’t venture out and question for themselves and oftentimes trust their inner voice, pay for it, and that’s a form of hell, by the way. You know, hell isn’t just hell and original meanings, man, how you feel when you have your life review, and look at what you did to others and what you thought and said, Well, every day we have a life review whether we’re aware of it or not. So one of the biggest reasons to expand our mind expand our world search for good answers is to enjoy heaven now and then after we Pass on as well.

Brian Smith 28:01
Yeah. But that’s that’s an excellent point. And I think the farther I go in my life, the more I think if there’s one problem that the world has the biggest problem is that we we’ve forgotten who we are, that we think we’re a biological accident, that life has no meaning that the universe has no meaning that we were we were made conscious when we were born. And when our body stops functioning, we lose consciousness. And I think that’s at the root of every single problem that we have as human beings on this planet.

Mark Pitstick 28:33
And Einstein referred to that belief that we are separate from life and others as an optical delusion, because we depend on what we see, there’s only one little problem with that. And this is one of the things that Dr. Schwartz and I discovered when we were starting to work together I had used for years analogy from Lynne McTaggart book the field she interviewed top quantum physicists and they said that if all the light and energy, again, that’s the most absolute nature of reality, if all the light and energy in our world was the size of Mount Everest, the portion the average human can perceive, but the five senses would be the size of a golf ball. Well, Dr. Schwartz had a different metaphor. But very similar. He said, If all that exists in our world with a height of the Empire State Building, the portion the average human can proceed would be the height of a coat of paint.

Announcer 29:33
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Mark Pitstick 30:35
so those analogies based on good science point out to people that you can’t go by I mean didn’t buy heroin lol there’s more to life than meets the eye. Yeah, people you think it’s simple, homespun phrase. And so I say most people are going around looking through a tiny pinhole and they think and they can only see the set fraction of all the reality so they think, Oh my gosh, my loved one died or oh my gosh, I have cancer I’m gonna die. God Why is her forsaken me? Oh, there’s probably no God anyway life is so, you know, we just get in this it’s all in our mind all this life is cruel and fair, random and chaotic and no, that’s true. And so that’s why it behooves people to take a little time do centering practices like meditation, yoga time and atria playing with people or pets basically whatever helps quiet the brain because the brain is the culprit. Mr. Alexander neurosurgery wrote proof of heaven and I were talking and we both agreed. He is a medical neurosurgeon. I have as a Doctor of Chiropractic, that based on our understanding of the central nervous system, 95% of what our brain does is inhibit filter out sensory input, because if we could see here, feel smell, everything exists, we’d be And then day we’d be schizophrenia we couldn’t function. And so evolutionary wise it was adaptive for us just to see and hear things we needed to survive. saber tooth tiger growing, that difference between the poisonous berries and the good berries that we could eat. Well now though it’s become a detriment in the 21st century. And so that’s why it’s wise to take some time to expand that Valve a bit. Even if you see a quarter size portion and look around more than life starts making so much more sense. And so it is a person’s earthly experience. Yeah, I

Brian Smith 32:39
remember when I first met you, it’s been three or four years ago and you were giving a lecture here in Cincinnati at the victory light. And you gave that analogy about looking to the people and and the coat of paint in the Empire State Building. I’ve thought about that ever since. And so as i’ve you know, you can look and just give some people some ideas, like for example, we can only see a small portion of that The visible of the light range of this should say visible, it’s visible to us. But like bees, for example, literally a different world than we do. Bees. When they look at a flower, they see something. And I’ve seen some photography to kind of try to try to simulate that. And it frankly looks like what people described in near death experience. It’s like they’re lit from within. So and when we think about what we can hear, I mean, we can only hear a small range of what’s going on. And dogs for example, they experience a different world than we do. So we’re so arrogant thinking that we can see and hear everything. And even with our instruments, we’re like, well, surely, with our instruments, we can see and hear all that there is, but we know that even that’s not true. We’ve got this dark matter and dark energy that we know exists because it has to exist, but we have no way of sensing it.

Mark Pitstick 33:47
Yeah, that’s science. And so for people who think there’s no science behind what we’re talking about, it’s just not true. By the way, I’d like to sidebar real quick and share with people the first time we met as Brian said he and Ty was with you. And it seemed like it was one other person with you.

Brian Smith 34:04
Yeah, we’re somebody I can remember, I think was Wendy at the time. Yeah. Okay.

Mark Pitstick 34:08
So they came to one of my talks or maybe 90 people in the room and I’m, I’m getting rain, I’m getting in the zone. Because when I have a chance to teach how to just like, say, okay, God, you know, tell me what to say how to say and when the said to reach the most number of people deeply. And so I’m walking down the aisle, looking at people and kind of reading and seeing where people are. And all of a sudden, I look over the left and there’s Brian and ty. And I’m just like, Whoa, do I know these people? I just I could feel your presence. I feel your energy and just locked eyes with you for a moment. And then you know, the rest is history. I only got in contact and been working together.

Brian Smith 34:54
It’s so wild Mark because i i’d read one of your books or I’d heard your name or something and we were about it. Nope. really who you were a detail. So we were late to the to the victory light and our friend that showed up because she was late. So we’re waiting. And I said, Oh, Mark Pittsburgh is speaking, you know, because we were going to go just walk the general floor until the next session started. That mark is speaking right now in the room down the hall. So it’s like, I want to hear him. So we walked in. And you as you said, you and I met and we’ve been working together pretty much ever since on the soul phone, helping parents heal, etc. So this is one of those things in life that was just meant to happen.

Mark Pitstick 35:29
Yeah. And I encourage people to watch for those soundings. You know, it’s important that we have kindred spirits. One of the big things I hear from people is they say that they’ve had personal experiences. Maybe they glimpse someone who, who passed on. They felt like their consciousness detached from their body for a while, but they are afraid to tell others family or friends for fear of being considered cookie. Well, first of all, there’s a very good chance that one or more of your family and friends Also had those experiences and they’re also in the closet about it can be one of the reasons were forming the greater reality living groups and I encourage people to join enlightened places like unity centers and others. So they meet kindred spirits, people are open minded, open hearted, service oriented, and then you don’t feel so alone. And that brings up a good point, we should cover the, again, based on Michael Newton’s war against mother clinical evidence, it appears that about 85% of the people on this planet right now are what are termed beginner souls. And it’s not a judgement. It’s just the state they’re at, you know, judging them would be like putting down a one year old that can’t walk at Yeah. And then another 12% or so, intermediate souls and just two or 3% advance. Well, people watching your show likely are advanced. And intermediate. And I just wrote an article, for example, number 67, or something on soul proof calm about optimal relationships for more evolved people. Because living on earth is very tricky in a number of ways for people who are partially awakened. And that’s why it’s important to have kindred spirits, to take better care of the physical plan. So your personal energy and your body and brain are more on the same wavelength, etc.

Brian Smith 37:32
That’s a really good point. You know, such as I’ve heard something similar that before because, frankly, a lot of us to people I hang out with, like yourself and other, we look around the world, like what is wrong? Why Why don’t people get this? Why are we Why are we fighting? Why aren’t we taking care of each other? isn’t as obvious that you know, we should be doing better. And that’s, I guess, a great explanation. I think we’re all I mean, thing is we know we’re constantly evolving, and we know there’s always going to be someone who’s ahead of There’s already gonna be someone who’s, you know, behind us for lack of a better way of putting it. But Earth seems to be kind of a beginner school. It just looks that way to me too. So it makes sense to me.

Mark Pitstick 38:12
Yeah, years ago, I read a channel book by Pat wrote aghast for a collective entity called Abraham, and he said, do not count. I’m getting teared up. Do not mourn. And this is paraphrasing, but do not mourn for the suffering you see on Earth. Where else would souls go to learn basic lessons? And so yeah, this is like kindergarten in the universe, but important. There’s one other thing that I encourage people to consider and I just wrote an article on this, about contrast souls. So things are not always as they seem, and this is why we just have that. Okay, whatever. You know, I’m going to look for the silver lining here, no matter what happens because there’s some good evidence and I presented some of the article that some people who appear to be ignorant, cruel, etc, are actually more evil souls who are purposely taking on out of love, a limiting outer countenance to push people’s buttons to, to trigger people to do work that they wouldn’t have otherwise if they hadn’t met this, quote, mean and bad person. Same way with people were really sick. I forget why I was reading that the report was that some higher souls, sometimes even guides will agree to come to earth with again and just part of their energy and be a really sick, invalid person. Why? So beginner souls can learn to be doctors and caregivers. So that’s you know, when you get This kind of information again, with some clinical evidence behind it. That’s when you step back and say things like, it’s all good. It’s all God. Or Dr. Schwartz and I were talking the other day about the saying, I heard from the teacher ROM das, suffering is grace. Suffering is bliss, you know, those kinds of seeming paradoxes, again, allows us to relax, do what we feel we came here to do enjoy life, and and don’t worry about it, like the Jackson Browne song, and then it’s a blink of an eye. And it truly is whether we live in 105 or five, in the span of eternity, which is forever. Yeah, that’s

Brian Smith 40:44
an interesting perspective. And I was gonna ask you, the next question is, you know, why is there suffering? But I think you you kind of you’ve already started to touch on that, you know, because people will say, Well, if there’s if there’s a God, there’s a loving, all powerful God. So why do all these these bad things happen and we label these things as bad

Mark Pitstick 41:00
Yeah, I remember when I saw the movie, oh God with john Denver and George Burns. And you know, john was asking him those questions as God. And I think I even quoted in my book soul proof. And George Burns says God was saying, I don’t create suffering, I don’t allow the suffering you do. You know, I gave you this beautiful planet and everything on it. Now it’s up to you to love one another to kill one another. So, God is not a puppet master, a dictator, a robot maker. And, and God is again, not a big guy in the sky. We’re all part of God. We’re interconnected. So that’s one reason are suffering because humans create it. Another is and Buddhists probably said the most succinctly. Why is there suffering two reasons, opportunities to grow and to serve others. Not because of life or perfect and easy all the time. Most of us wouldn’t dig deeper. Learn and when may not be motivated to then reach out and serve others just like you’ve done as a way to transcend your grieving. Yeah, I

Brian Smith 42:11
don’t know if I came up with this or not. But I had this thought experiment that I would do with myself and say, Okay, what if the world were perfect? If everything were literally perfect, every every wish I had was fulfilled the moment it happened, nothing caused me and it nothing contradicted any of my wishes. It wouldn’t be real, because there’d be nothing outside of myself. As soon as there’s anything outside of myself, it’s gonna it’s going to contradict, you know, what, what would be perfect to me. So I would be, there’d be no experience. And so I realized there has to be some level of what we call suffering or imperfection in the world for us to even experience anything. So then the question only becomes, well, what level is acceptable? So people will look and say, Well, this level is certainly unacceptable. You know, this is this is too much, but I looked at like if you look at a toddler, for example, and They fall on their skin, their knee. They think they’re dying. They literally think it’s the end of the world. Or if I, if I were to tell my daughter Shannon, you can’t have ice cream today, you can have ice cream tomorrow. You know, she would think I’m the cruelest father, ever. So what I realized is we’re basically like big toddlers. We say, Okay, this this world is it’s just too much. You know, I could see God allowing a little suffering, but not not this much. But it’s really limited, because we’re only here for a short amount of time. Yeah,

Mark Pitstick 43:27
and language is so important here. specific language because it seems to me I just finished reading a book by Bernie Siegel and his grandson, and it’s called What if everything is really perfect? Mm hmm. And it’s based on a saying by an anonymous person, that is, when you realize how perfect everything is, you’ll raise your head up and laugh at the sky. And it really is. So from the big picture standpoint, and For seeing everything, we see it perfect. But when we’re looking to even a quarter size, there are some areas that certainly don’t seem perfect. So that’s the task for the awakening person to, to take this incarnation seriously to have compassion for others to do what we can to alleviate suffering. And at the same time, remember the big picture. And it’s that’s tricky. It’s been compared as like walking on a razor’s edge.

Brian Smith 44:31
Yeah, I was talking with a client the other day and I was just talking about very, that same thing, it’s about balancing. And it’s about it’s about so when we get too far on the everything is perfect. It doesn’t matter side, because it’s all gonna be okay in the end. That makes us no earthly good. That’s not what we’re here for. But when we get too, too far down in the weeds and say, it’s terrible, I can’t stand it because it’s just it’s the worst thing ever. We’ve got to move back towards the other balance where we take that higher perspective. So being Human is a very difficult thing to do.

Mark Pitstick 45:03
It is. And, you know, we don’t have documented evidence for this. But I’ve certainly heard it said from different sources, that there’s a long waiting list among souls to come to Earth. Because it is such a intense experience. It does provide such diverse ways to grow me It’s one thing to be in a focus group in a spiritual realm. How can I work on myself? You know, it’s all hypothetical. Yeah, we come down here and the rubber hits the road. That’s when you find out how much you really know.

Brian Smith 45:34
Well, we touched on it a lot. But I want to talk about soul pro because there’s such a wealth of information there. You’ve talked about how many articles are there now about 70? Yes, so that there’s all these articles and you’ve got CDs, you’ve got experiential things that people can do. So tough to talk people through what they’ll see if they go to sell, prove calm,

Mark Pitstick 45:52
right. There’s three areas of free resources. I try to make this affordable as possible to people to do all these hours. Cause covering all the bases, you know the most of the scientific evidence that life continues after Biolay death. The clinical evidence, an article for bereaved parents when your child changes worlds when your loved one’s body is murdered, when a loved one’s physical form dies by suicide. By the way, notice some of my language that sounds cumbersome. But I never say when you die when your loved one was murdered, because you can’t die your loved one couldn’t be murdered. However your loved ones physical shell Earth suit, we call it can be so articles on just about every conceivable question, you could ask to answer the biggest questions and challenges people have during their earthly experience. Secondly, as I mentioned, lots of free radio shows I hosted a radio show twice and just gems that top, top minds and consciousness. They have For Life steadies free newsletter so those are the free. And then books, but they’re all very affordably like $15. You know, for the books, audio products, as you mentioned 12 different ones, the digital downloads 1495 I mean, yes. And what a person gets from that would cost you $250 with a therapist one on one, but it’s like having me in the room, where I take a person and the deep hypnosis, deep relaxation, and do things like past life regression, pre birth planning, identify your soul’s missions, what would your life review be like today if you died, and how can you change it so when you do pass on, it’s a work of art, etc. So there’s a explanation of each one of those products. Then I do coaching and counseling and have to charge something for that for my time. So those are all the rules. resources out there for people.

Brian Smith 48:03
That’s excellent. Yeah. And I’ve learned so much from from your books and gone through somebody’s workshops, you know, with you. You’ve given so much time to helping parents heal helping, you know, walk parents through this things. So people haven’t had that opportunity. This was a great way to get to some of Mark’s wisdom and knowledge on soul proof Comm. So we have to talk mark, we have a few minutes left, let’s talk about the soul phone. So people first of all, explain to people what it is. I’m the VP on the Borg. You’re the director of the soul phone, but let’s talk cell phone foundation. Let’s talk about what the soul phone is.

Mark Pitstick 48:37
How many minutes do we have?

Brian Smith 48:38
I’ve got about 10 minutes.

Mark Pitstick 48:40
Okay, I said to No, we got 10 or 15 minutes.

Ah, well, the soul phone project is based on research done at the laboratory for advances in consciousness and Health at the University of Arizona. Dr. Gary Schwartz I mentioned is the future Director of it. He has a team of electrical engineer, software specialist, optical physicist, evidential mediums and other experts who help him with his research. He started, we mentioned his work with evidential mediums 20 plus years ago, well, 20 years ago, he started getting tidbits of information from some of these evidential mediums, independently, they would say, carry Albert Einstein keeps coming to me and saying, You’re supposed to build technology to allow communication in between dimensions. And after several years of that, then he started working on his very first experiment in 2004. Measuring different ways to capture the signal of spirit and create even basic Yes, no binary communication with them. Well, now in 2020, we’re working what’s called the electronic soul switch, which is a binary indicator is different ways it can be done By working on now instantaneous, 99.9% reliable and accurate switch that people post material persons people in the next room can touch or influence to answer yes or no. That itself has limited usefulness. But the beauty is that this switch is small enough that can be created then in parallel with 40 other switches to create the sole keyboard, allowing texting and typing again with loved ones. And then also with post Mattel luminaries a team were told hundreds and hundreds of scientists, inventors, people who are geniuses on Earth, very dynamic people and who have learned a lot during their time in the structured universe and want to help us here on Earth. Once we have the sole keyboard, Brian, as you know, then we’re off to the races we will have a much better quantity and quality of information coming in To develop then the next two devices, so voice like a cell phone. So video, just like we’re doing now Skype zoom Facebook, the ultimate goal is to have an app applications that work with any smartphone so that people can talk with and see loved ones and also attend webinars given by these visionary luminaries. The goal for the soul video is to have a 3d holographic form. So it will be the next best thing to the person really being there because you’ll be saying solidly and match used in some Las Vegas, top clubs entertainment now and they’re quite real. So that’s the soul phone project in a nutshell, it’s happening. We appreciate funding that comes in we we have had a number of visionary donors who and almost All the team is all the team is volunteer, Dr. Schwartz and his wife Ron does not receive one penny. I’ve been working about 50 hours a week for four years, not one penny, you have a team of volunteers. So nobody’s getting rich, others nobody’s making anything but it’s a labor of love. I mean, how else could you make an impact on so many people in our world potentially as this? So we appreciate funders, we know it’s just a matter of time before we receive large funding. I mean, when I talked about $2 million dollars or something to complete the electronic soul switch, and then perhaps that again, to have a commercializable soul keyboard. So it’s really not that much money. It’s a matter of time for somebody learns it. What’s coming up is multicenter studies I mentioned earlier by the end of this year, having had the research replicated by six different universities or institutes Dr. Schwartz has third peer reviewed scientific journal describing all this and then the beginning of next year using the electronic souls which what we call seat events, which stands for cell phone

experience ethics demonstration. So, these will be public demonstrations probably virtual now, where people will see this technology working, see the results of it. Also launching during that time what are called hope sessions, which means have opportunity for post material experience to means individual clients can interact with the technology and get yes no answers from their quote departed loved ones who are standing right beside them. The there’s so much you can do with yes or no for example, you ask 20 different questions. Half advance should be no half should be yes. And the computer could show photos so you could say Is this a picture of our dog when you were little answers? Yes. Is this a picture of a birthday party we had last week? Answer should be no, because there was no birthday party. You know, did we go to Disney World for your 16th? birthday? Yes or no? Where the answer should be so at the end of 20 of those questions when they’re answered 100%, right. It’s kind of like that Demi Moore moment in the movie ghosts where she sees the penny floating in the air. And like, Oh, my God, this is really real. And then that’s that spiritually transformed experience. That awakens a person’s heart opens their mind more. And then usually they’re often running just like near death experiences, then they’re less altruistic, materialistic. They’re more loving, the more giving more peaceful etc.

Brian Smith 54:54
Yeah, one thing I want to say because as people are hearing this, I’m trying to put myself in the mind of the public. It may sound Fantastic, it may sound, you know, unbelievable. So it’s related to some people, if you’ve had signs from your loved one like, like Shannon messes with by cell phone, or if you’ve seen lights flicker in the house, or if you’ve heard of instrumental trans communications, or ebps, all these things that have been documented to be going on for years, where spirit has been interacting with just normal devices, as well, as we’ve had, like, tronics, there’s been a lot of this. So what I try to tell people imagine you build a device that’s highly sensitive, just for this purpose. And then that’s what Gary has been working on. And we’ve already got results. I mean, there’s already results that you said that are out there, but it’s coming. It’s it’s, it seems too, too good to be true. But I think it’s really coming you know, in a very short period of time.

Mark Pitstick 55:45
And it’s been a little frustrating. You know, we’ve been working on this for three years getting the word out and we’ll get emails from people say well, the cell phone ever will I be whatever really happen or is this a bunch of BS, but keep in mind, we’ve been been trying to do this on a very small budget, part time electrical engineers, part time software programmers. And so a project that could be done in a week by full time team may take months by these part time people. But one thing about Schwartz, NIH and others, we don’t give up. And we say we’ve already had the Wright brothers moment. There’s some beautiful writings by Wilbur Norvell. Right after the first flights at Kitty Hawk, you know first only lasted 18 seconds. Yeah. But they wrote, we now know that human flight is possible. There’s no doubt in their mind. Five people saw that first event. Well, we’ve already had our Wright Brothers moment. We already know that. life continues after baalei death and communication with them. I’ll be at a basic level Yes, no is possible. Now the goal is to Have a commercializable practical, usable device. And that will change the world. By the way, in our book, greater reality living, I share an interview I had with one of the mediums in which I was reportedly talking with because you have stayed propor late because we all know 100% for sure, but with Albert Einstein and Nikola Tesla, Carl Sagan, and I asked, once we have even the soul keyboard, are you all willing and able to give webinars for us on our toughest subjects, you know, global sustainability, race relations, optimal leadership, addressing hunger, overpopulation, etc. Everybody knows the list. Would you all be willing to give these webinars and the medium started laughing and she said, they’re pushing each other out of the way to get first in line. So that’s how much they’re excited to share what they know. And ganas It’s just a matter of time before we have that technology in place. So I hope this gives everyone peace, hope, things are gonna get better and things can get better right now it’s an inside job, you know, even a fraction of what we’ve been talking about.

Brian Smith 58:15
You know, as we’re talking about this, I’m thinking how as mankind, I think we’ve kind of come full circle. I listen to some teachings from Emanuel swedenborg. And he talks about there was a time in man’s history, where when people went to the spirit world, we could still see and communicate with them easily. And then as we became more and more materialistic, we started losing that ability. And I think we’re almost kind of at the Abyss now we’re at the low point where we’re so materialistic. And so maybe instead of religion, you know, being the thing that leads us back to remember where we are, maybe it’s this, that we can really, you know, fully understand who we are. So, I know there’s there’s there’s a tendency, I think, from somebody who said, Well, this is not possible. This maybe this is not meant to be are you trying to play God? You know, the veil is there for a reason. And now you might have those types of thoughts, but I think it’s something that’s really needed. Because we’re just about to destroy our planet and we’re really on the brink right now.

Mark Pitstick 59:10
But it’s, it’s not too late now, if we take action, you know, you’re talking about, there was a time swedenborg saying, My there’s still time in other cultures there aren’t so focused on. We are. My fiance, Andy works at a children’s hospital and one of our co workers is from Jamaica, and they’ve become really close and, and this woman said, Yeah, I dreamed my grandma up last night. And Andy said, Wait a minute. I you dreamed your grandma. Yeah, you know, I called her in spirit. Hmm, like, tell me more. Oh, she died a while back but I just dial her up and we have these wonderful talks and visits. So that’s part of the culture. They’re a part of the industry. Standing and yeah, that is possible. And now we’re gonna have the technology to do it for everyone, even if they’re totally closed down. I mean, if you can work a cell phone, you still work. So phone.

Brian Smith 1:00:11
Yeah. Well, that’s a good point too, because I know like Sonia Rinaldi is doing work where she’s communicating into the spirit world. And people ask me about her. And as relates his cell phone, I have a friend who’s a physical medium, he can take and talk to spirit over an Apple Watch. He’s figured out how to make apple how to talk to spirit over an Apple Watch. And they’ve actually he’s got a microphone he can talk to them on. But what I’ve realized with those their physical mediums and I that’s my belief was Sonia Rinaldi because I can’t take Sonia’s equipment and replicate it. I can’t do what she does. But with the what Gary’s working on with the soul farm project. This is independent of the operator. So it doesn’t require someone to be whatever physical medium is. They’re sitting there bringing something to it. That spirit is working through their body.

Mark Pitstick 1:00:56
Yeah, obviously, there’s been good results with Different AVP and ITC approaches, but as you say, sometimes it’s operator dependent. Sometimes results are hit and miss, you may not get anything. Some of the audio recordings are so garbled that you need a Sep script to supposedly understand what it says exactly. Likewise, visual images. The goal here is to have 99.9%, safety, accuracy, reliability, clarity, just like we’re used to now with technological devices.

Brian Smith 1:01:34
Yeah, well, I just wanna say one more thing about good as far as we are, because I was at Kitty Hawk. Last year was on vacation, I went by Kitty Hawk, and I know you and Gary always used that analogy. And seeing where they took off and seeing the museum and seeing the first you know, the first plane, and then thinking about where we are today with rockets and jets and stuff. I mean, that’s kind of where we are with the cell phone. More than that first flight, we’re past that even, but you know, it’ll, it’ll develop Over time, and it’ll become, you know, it’s gonna become ubiquitous, I think at some point in time.

Mark Pitstick 1:02:05
Yep. And I hope people are inspired by these analogies and begin flying themselves. We each are special souls, special beings who came here with gifts. Again, it sits in Native American teaching, as each one of us has a giveaway. And I’ve seen it for many years as in life is like a puzzle. And when we each contribute our part, do what we came here to do. The pieces of the puzzle come together, and we can have heaven on earth.

Brian Smith 1:02:36
Yeah, absolutely. Well, uh, Mark, I could talk to you all day. We set we go about an hour, so we’re at an hour now. I really appreciate you doing this has been great catching up with you.

Mark Pitstick 1:02:45
It’s an honor to be on here. Thanks for all you’re doing Brian.

Brian Smith 1:02:47
Anything you want to say in closing?

Mark Pitstick 1:02:51
Just the website again. So proof.com for more information to learn more about the soul phone, soul phone dot org. So URL phone.org and learn about it share about with others. Take it, take it within internalize that we’ve mapped out how to do that. And enjoy your life. I look forward to seeing you someday somewhere. Yeah.

Brian Smith 1:03:18
Thanks, Mark. You have a good weekend.

Mark Pitstick 1:03:20
All right, you too, my fan. But

Brian Smith 1:03:23
well, I hope you enjoyed the episode. I want to make it really easy for you to reach me. So just send me a text 231996 and simply text the word growth gr o w th. In fact you can right now just say hey Siri, send the message. 231996 and when Siri asks you what you want to send, just say growth. You can do the same thing with Ok, Google. Thanks a lot. Have a wonderful day.

Announcer 1:03:50
Thanks for listening to grief to growth. Brian hopes that you find this episode helpful. And we’ll come back for future episodes. Brian’s best selling book grief together planted not buried is a great resource for anyone who is coping with grief or know someone who is. If you enjoy the podcast and would like to support it, there are three things you can do to help. The first is to share the podcast with someone that you think it will help. The second is to go to iTunes rate and review the episode. The third way you can support the podcast is by becoming a patron. Head over to www.patreon.com slash grief to growth. That’s pa t ar e o n.com. Slash grief, the number two growth and sign up to make a small monthly donation. patrons get access to exclusive bonus content and knowledge that you are helping to spread the message of grief to grow. For more about Brian and grief to growth, visit www grief to growth.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

I met Daniel about a year ago in a group for bereaved parents. Daniel was volunteering his time to help the parents out. I could immediately sense he is a sincere and generous guy with a high ethical standard. Daniel was raised as a Christian, as was I. When his mediumship opened up spontaneously in January of 2017, he didn’t know what had hit him. He wasn’t sure he believed in mediumship and he thought if it were real, it incompatible with his Christian faith. Daniel studied and prayed hard before deciding that this was a gift from God to be use for God’s purposes. Fast forward a few years and Daniel has done hundreds of readings that have brought healing and increased people’s faith in God and the afterlife.

We discuss Daniel’s journey and his new book “Why Are We Here?”

 

For more on Daniel, look him up on Facebook at Daniel John Medium. He does free readings every Monday night on Facebook Live.

 

ℹ️ https://www.danieljohnmedium.com

 

Transcript

Announcer 0:00
Hi there. Welcome to grief to growth podcast. Your host is Brian Smith, spiritual seeker, best selling author, grief survivor and life coach. Ryan believes that the worst tragedies of life provide the greatest opportunity for growth. Ryan says he was planted, not buried, and he is here to help you grow where you’ve been planted by the difficulties in life. In each episode, Brian and his guests will share what has helped them to survive and thrive. It is his sincere hope this episode helps you today.

Brian Smith 0:35
Hey, everybody, this is Brian Smith back with another episode of grief to growth. And today I’ve got with me my friend, Daniel, john. And Daniel’s been on I think a couple of times we’ve had conversations on on grief to growth. But Daniel is a certified spiritual medium. He’s a Reiki Master and he’s the author of the new book. Why are we here reflections on life from a spiritual medium. So, Daniel with that, welcome to greater growth. Thank you, Brian.

Daniel John 1:00
Thank you for having me. Daniel, it’s I’ve known you, I guess for maybe a little over a year now, we met through a group on Facebook that you were doing some work with voiceover angels, for Angel. And

Brian Smith 1:13
now it’s really been really interesting getting to know you and watch you as you’ve developed as, as a as a medium and as a person and with your faith, and with your book. And so your book discusses all that, and discusses like, how you came out as a medium, and how your faith has evolved and and those types of things. So let’s, let’s go ahead and start with that. So how did you discover that you were a medium? or How did you become a medium?

Daniel John 1:36
So I think I think, you know, those are gifts that are given from the Holy Spirit. So I think it’s always been there. I don’t think it was time to really come to fruition until a few years ago. And the short version I was I was sitting next to a woman at a restaurant, and

I started getting these like feelings, visions, pictures, just things started coming to me names and ended up being somehow some way even though this was against my religion or

You know, even against what I believe to be possible, her husband who had passed away six months before, you know, he had passed away right in front of her. And she was having a hard time. And I didn’t really know any of this. I knew he had passed because she was we were co workers at work. And she announced when she was introduced to our team that her husband passed, but that’s all I knew. So I sat next to her at a restaurant and a work event. And he came through and she after it, so it’s 45 minutes of just like his name and things. And I thought, you know, did I read her mind? Or did like, where did this stuff come from? And I was like nervous about all that. But I know that after the reading, she was so grateful and so full of love and was so happy to connect with him. Somehow, someway. I realized at that point, I need to figure out what that was about. And if I can help people, which is something I always love doing, then I want to figure out what that was about so I can continue to help more. Yeah, so you’re just you’re having this conversation with her and spontaneously things started coming to you that she was apparently validating

Yep. And that was my first official quote unquote reading. And I talked about that story in the book of how that was the first time I’ve ever happened in an accident, and also towards the latter part of the book about, you know, the process, because it’s not how, even though you and I are having a conversation right now, it’s, it’s very, very subtle, and you have to pick up on those things. But the main goal is to help others because some people when they experience grief, they handle it different ways. And some people lose their faith in God and my job and I’ve been told this, their spirit is to help people rekindle their faith with them. Yeah, so so you, you, you don’t believe that mediumship is possible, you actually believe it’s against your faith, but now you find yourself giving a reading. So how did how did that hit you emotionally after this happened? I mean, I was confused. I didn’t know what happened. You know, and even back then I didn’t even know they were that I mean, I just remember being told, you know, and I was raised Catholic and saved the ninth grade. And I just remember hearing that. I really didn’t then I read Scripture, but

I was more of a New Testament, I read more of the New Testament. But when I, when I finally came out this getting a little ahead, I, I looked at some Old Testament scripture and found out that wow, this really, you know, this is a really, quote unquote, against the Bible. So then I went on this journey of just praying and trusting and reading books and asking God and you’re just finally coming to the point and realizing, and this is a spiritual gift to them that I’m, like, supposed to do supposed to use to help others. So yeah, very confusing, actually. Yeah, that’s, that’s an interesting journey. And you and I were talking before we get started, I think you and I’ve taken similar journeys, where we have this kind of fundamentalist faith, for lack of a better word that says, This is right, and this is wrong. And then something comes along in our life, and it challenges that. And in my case, I had a relative who turned out to be gay. And when he passed away, I was told he was in hell. And I’m just like, this doesn’t make any sense to me, that this person who was one of the best people I’ve ever known in my life, is gay and the church wouldn’t accept him because of that.

Brian Smith 5:00
Therefore, God is going to punish him eternally. I’m like, this doesn’t make sense. So I went on the same journey as you. I’m like, I gotta find it. How do I read the Bible properly? What? Where did it come from? You know, all those things, and then we find out that there’s been a lot of misinterpretation.

Unknown Speaker 5:16
I feel that same way. For sure. Yeah. So.

Brian Smith 5:20
So you have this gift of as a media, but you’re still not really sure. mediumship is a real thing. So your next step, I guess you actually went to see a medium, right? Yeah, yeah.

Daniel John 5:31
So it was a few months of in the book, I also talked about some things of the world. I had to kind of give up the, you know, to realize and embrace this gift. But yeah, being a skeptic. I had to go see a medium for myself. Absolutely. And it was, like, you know, there’s certain things that you can like, you know, I was thinking, maybe she’s googling it, or maybe she did this, but, you know, I talked about in the book, but I tested her I limited my responses. I watched her, you know, mannerisms. You know, I listened to what she said.

Without giving her too much information, and without a doubt, I walked out of that reading with like, Okay, this is real Oh, by the way, she mentioned that this was something that I was supposed to do. And that’s that I had a feeling about that there was a part of me that thought that if I can do that, I should be doing it. And she hinted at it without me even saying anything about it. Yeah, and I think it’s really the thing about you that I’ve known you for a while now, you’re all about helping people. So you’re not a person that got into mediumship to make money or become famous. In fact, you still have a full time job. This is what you, you know, you do to help people. And I know for a long time, I don’t think you even charge for your readings. Is that right? I did, I did him free for a while. And then I kind of leaned on some other mediums and I talked about this in the book as well about why I do charge. I came across very, very reasonable, but you know, like, I have a studio and so there’s a cost to that. So yeah, free at first just to make sure that I was doing it. But But you know, that being said, I volunteer as you know, for, you know, voices of our angels. Yeah, you know, I’ve given 20

You’re 30 and I talk about this in the book as well reading. So just, you know, people who reach out to me that the Holy Spirit guides me to give them a free reading where I don’t need to collect money, but I explained it as a balanced thing. And I do keep my costs very reasonable. But I’m big on tithing, you know, typing, as you know, is in the two biggest religions in the world. And I don’t think that’s a mistake. So I love getting back and I really love helping people. It’s the love. Yeah, I think it’s really interesting. I actually run a Facebook group where I try to bring parents and mediums together. And one of the questions that keeps coming up is people are like, I just think it’s unfair that people charge for gifts. You know, if it’s given to you as a gift, you should give it away but as you just touched on a couple things there what may one thing is, it’s an exchange. The other thing is you have expenses as a medium got overhead, you have a studio, I know a lot of mediums do a lot of training.

Brian Smith 7:48
Almost every medium I know does a lot of giving back, you know, free things. And our time is worth something, you know, all the time that we’re doing that you’re doing doing reading, you’re not spending doing something else. You’re taking away.

way for your family or something else. So it’s interesting to me that every other gift that people have the gift of being a surgeon, you know, will gladly pay a surgeon will gladly pay someone a plumber to come to our house and fix our pipes or an electrician. So I’m going to perform a service but there’s something about mediumship that and it’s also people even pay their pastor, right. We don’t expect pastors to do work for free. So I I do want to get that out there, you know, support you and your profession, that it’s it’s fine to charge you you have to charge you have to you have to make a living.

Daniel John 8:33
Yeah, there’s a lot of a lot of points, but I think the main thing is, is one it’s a balanced thing. You know, it’s I’ve even traded with other practitioners where if it’s a Reiki, you know, whether it’s Reiki or acupuncture where I’d give a reading and do exchange or something like that. But yeah, the balanced thing is, it’s a deeper explanation. Through all my readings, I’ve understood that there is a balance that needs to happen and sometimes money is an exchange is it and the other point that you made is very valid like what

I’m doing readings, if I have some days, you know, on weekends, I’ll have like three readings in a row, and I’m not with my kids. So and I and I charge very reasonable I can I try to keep it like to where it’s not expensive. And we also have to pay, I pay all my taxes. So when you boil it down, I really don’t make a lot of money at all, when you have the electric bill, the studio, the rent, you know, I have to use those money for some readings to pay for that stuff. So it really is a balance and it helps out. But at the same time, I do think it’s important to not to play the other side of the fence is where I do give a lot of free readings. I give them away I donate them I try to donate my time so that I am big on tithing, like I said, and I try to balance that and lean on the Holy Spirit to guide me in when I should charge and when I shouldn’t. And on a human level. I don’t like charging money. I really don’t like collecting it, but it does it pays the bills and supports the family. For sure. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So your book. I just finished it. I got it this week. It’s a great book. It’s really interesting. I guess it’s kind of a

Brian Smith 9:57
combination of a memoir and also kind of

A Guide for life you give a lot you get some advice in there like about how to raise your vibration you talk about you know diet, which is something I haven’t seen in a in a spiritual book before. So let’s let’s kind of go through some of the things in the book in terms of some of the advice you give let’s, let’s start with diet. I thought that was an interesting chapter.

So it’s funny my I had two editors for my book and the first editor was like, why are you including a chapter on diet and a spiritual book. And number one, I’m actually a former personal trainer, and focus on nutrition. So I feel like that’s something that a lot of people need a little help with. So it’s a very basic chapters chapter 17. And it just includes things that we shouldn’t shouldn’t eat and the main reason is in another chapter in the book is that we are energy and all the things that we do to our body, including diet have an effect on us. So when we when I talk when the book processed foods and you know certain foods like alcohol and sugars and things like that, it changes our energetic vibration. So diet is just one piece of the puzzle i thought was very important to include in the book.

Yeah, like, I think that’s, you know, the thing is we are, we’re spirit but we’re also human, we’re also body. And they, the our spirit interacts with our body, I think to extent. And as you said, you know, if our body’s not feeling well, then it’s going to it’s going to bring our vibration down for lack of a better word. So I thought that that chapter was really important, even though you took away all my favorite stuff.

I mentioned that too, is like, all right. I just mixed all the good stuff. I know. Yeah. But we can. Well, yeah, I was gonna say, but I do. Like you gave me permission that moderation because I first I was like, Okay, I can’t I can’t have a beer anymore. But you said, Yeah, you can have it moderation. So yeah, I appreciate that. So.

So in the book, you talk about your faith, and I know your faith is very, very important to Union. We could tell already just you know, the conversation starting out here. So how would you describe your faith journey? Where are you now? You mentioned you started off Catholic. You were saved. You

He said, I think he’s an eighth or ninth grade. So, talk to me about your progression in your area, not your progression but your journey.

Daniel John 12:08
Through the whole life K through six Catholic, you know, pretty strict Catholics saved in ninth grade I was with an organization called Youth for Christ. And at that point, I started following the teachings of Jesus and I have not stopped that. I’ve kind of changed what I call my religion. I’m a follower of Jesus and His teachings and a Christ follower. But I’ve also looked into the teachings of Buddha and Mohammed and some other religions because I feel like it’s good to be open minded and expand. Now I call my religion love. I follow the teachings of Jesus. So could you call me a Christian? Yes, because I follow the teachings of Christ. We talked about earlier I’m, I’m far from a fundamentalist because I lean on my relationship with Jesus through my heart. I use scripture as a book to spread love. I don’t use it to judge or to dam or condemn or I feel like Jesus speaks just as much

As he does, you know, back then he speaks now just as much as he did back then. And so I read the Bible daily, I use scripture to spread love, and my religion is love, but I really follow the teachings of mostly of Jesus. So you can call my son, I relate to Christianity, but I also have a lot of, you know, and just really quick, I’ll share it. I don’t believe in maternal health.

I don’t believe Jesus is the only way you know, john 14 six says, I am the way I’m the only way to Lord and a lot of fundamentalists think that he is. I grown to accept that his teachings, my interpretation of the Bible is and it’s jhanas Is that you? His teachings are the way I also believe, like you’ve mentioned about your friend earlier that I believe God made a homosexual person that way in this lifetime for a specific reason. I don’t think that you know, on Corinthians six nine, for instance, where it says homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God and we’ll research on that. So long story short, I use the Bible to spread love. I follow the teachings of Jesus

And what he taught me is to love, have compassion for others forgive, and to just look at the positives all the time and do the best you can in this life to help other people be the best they can. So yeah, yeah, I’m like right there with you and I struggled for a long time with, do I still call myself a Christian or not? And I choose not to at this point, just because there’s so much explaining I have to do if I say I’m a Christian, well, I’m a Christian that doesn’t believe in eternal hell. I’m a Christian doesn’t believe that Jesus had to die to save me from an angry guy. You know, I’m a Christian. It doesn’t play that. You know, like, I think you kind of went through the math like I did to there’s like 7 billion people on the planet, like 2 billion of us are Christians, maybe. And so that means two thirds of the people in the world are going to go to hell. And by the way, there’s like 30,000 Christian denominations. And most of them say the other ones are going to go to hell, because when I was growing up, Catholics are going to hell, because Catholics didn’t, didn’t speak in tongues. And if you didn’t speak in tongues, you were going to hell. So all that stuff.

Brian Smith 15:00
Just just I’m like, okay, I can’t. I’m a big follower of Jesus. I think Jesus is a special master as some people would say, a special being I follow his teachings. I think he is a great example. And I think like you said, when I started doing my extra Jesus in the Bible, and I saw that verse, I’ve heard people say the same thing when Jesus said, I am the way the father, it’s like not he didn’t mean I just spoke of his teachings. So he was he was saying, My example with the life that I’m living, the things that I’m telling you it’s and it’s all about love. Like you said, yeah, it is Christ consciousness. Right? So Jesus name it was Yeshua, right. And then we call him Jesus the Christ because the Christ is the consciousness. And then when we talk about which we’ll probably talk about next about mediumship in the Bible,

Daniel John 15:46
you know, well, we’ll get to that. I know you want to get to that, but yeah, I followed his teachings, but I’ve also looked into Hinduism, Buddhism, even Judaism which is, you know, very similar with Christianity, but are some of the whole versions but also a

You know, Islam and some teachings from Mohammed. And it’s really interesting. There’s a lot of similarities I talked about in the book, there’s tithing and praying and, you know, fasting and visiting your home, you know, you know, the church, quote, unquote, there’s a lot of similarities. There people are open minded enough to to understand that there’s more than just one religion, and also to last thing, you know, Jesus is available through the Scripture, but I think he’s, and I mentioned this before, I think he’s available now. I felt like I’ve had conversations with the Holy Spirit. Wouldn’t Christ consciousness, though, now that by just what just reading a book, and I think I think things change, and I think the Bible is a book to be used to store love, and that Christ Consciousness is available to us. All right now today, it’s not stuck in a book 2000 years ago. Yeah. And I completely agree. You know, what’s interesting is I was going through my transformation, I was going to different churches, and ended up at the United Church of Christ. And one of the things was, God is still speaking, it was something that they said and another thing that was never placed

Brian Smith 17:00
Regardless place the comma. So I started thinking, Okay, well, why did God stop speaking? 2000 years ago? You know it apparently he spoke to Paul and that was it and guy just, you know, pulled away and said, You know you guys are on your own. So when I talked to my fundamentalist friends and they say I was talking to one of them about, like near death experiences and I said that, you know, I talk to people all the time and have their death experiences, etc. And it’s like, whatever, they don’t believe in those as well. I think Paul had at least a couple near death experiences. And he’s like, what, what do you mean? So I tell him about the road to Damascus, right? He sees a bright light, he hears a voice, he falls to his knees, he struck blind. You know, all these things. I’m like, it sounds a lot like the people I talked to who’ve had near death experiences. And because yeah, but it was Paul. I’m like, but why do you believe Paul that wrote this 2000 years ago, but you don’t believe john that I spoke to yesterday that had a similar experience?

Yeah, well, then it’s like, well, yeah, Brian, Brian, you know, I come down to it’s all about the it’s about the Bible. It’s all about the Bible.

Which is just such a, I hate to say it’s a brainwash perspective, because why should we think I mean this? This was written by man at some point. And as they say inspired by the Holy Spirit, okay, fine. Why did the Holy Spirit stop speaking? And I gotta tell you when I when I read Neale Donald Walsch conversations with God The first time I read it, guy was reading blasphemy. You know, this guy’s like, you know, God said, God download all stuff to me, but I read it I’m like, but there’s so much truth in what he’s saying. And then I thought, Why couldn’t it be true? You know, but we’ve all been as Christians we were taught this is that God stop speaking then don’t listen to anybody else. Yeah, it’s crazy. There’s actually Krish I’ve read a couple near death experience books that were written by Christian writers. There’s a couple of them I’ve read and they’re very good. And they speak about, you know, one of them can’t think of James garlow world one of them. He has an interesting perspective on cute spirit communication. But yeah, there’s actually Christian writers who write about NDS and how important they are

And how similar they are and how pretty much that heaven exists. Is there a point?

Well, Howard Stern was a total atheist when he had that experience and he now is a Christian pastor. He came back and he became a Christian. After his near death experience and talks about Jesus and the Bible and odd stuff, he’s a UCC pastor, I think he’s retired now. Mary Neal was the Catholic when she had her near death experience still, I consider myself Catholic, as far as I know. So I’m sorry to interrupt you. I read her book, but she the one that got in the boating accident, yeah. Yeah, it’s a good. I like yeah, it’s good. Yeah, that was a really, really interesting. As for me, being a person who’s had a child transition, you know, and she talks about, she knew that that her son was going to pass and her that her whole journey with that, that just, you know, that really fascinated me. But it’s really, it’s,

Unknown Speaker 19:52
it’s interesting why some Christians think that near death experiences are of the devil. No, because the Bible doesn’t say anything.

Unknown Speaker 20:00
About that, but for some reason they’ve made it up that, you know, I guess they say the dead No, nothing, you know, stuff like that which is, again, as we call it, the Old Testament or Hebrew Scripture kind of passage, based on an understanding that they had at the time. But I don’t want to steal your thunder, but you talk about why you think mediumship is okay. And it’s a biblical basis. So, go ahead and tell me what you think about that. Yeah, it’s chapter six is the biggest chapter in the book. It’s actually part of the reason I think spirit guided me to write the book because there there are a certain amount of people that are open minded enough to say, Okay, I was taught this, I always believe this, but there’s this, you know, and there’s not just me, there’s other authors as other, you know, mediums. They’re saying these things, and I don’t know, part of me feels like it’s true. So that’s why I wrote it. I made a YouTube video about mediumship and Christianity. Long story is a 20 minute video and it’s very compact, but a long story short is

Unknown Speaker 20:57
when I first started doing this

Unknown Speaker 21:00
You know, if I would have listened to what I thought was the truth, or what I was told was the truth before, or even what a book told me was the truth, I wouldn’t have gotten to where I am today. And where that is, and this is kind of this novel backwards is I get

Unknown Speaker 21:17
I’ve done over 1000 readings and the emails, the phone calls the messages of healing and faith in God and you know, you know, you’ve lost you’ve had a daughter transition, and you’ve actually made a she’s come through I think for a couple of readings we’ve done and it’s so peaceful and healing and loving. So when I gave the readings to the woman in Boston, and I realized she was so happy and thankful and then I realized after coming out when someone wrote me an email, there’s all these Old Testament scripture and you are channeling to the devil and you’re going to hell and all these things like that. I took a step back was like alright, well maybe I need to quit maybe all these like healings and loving and faith in God all this stuff is just like a hoax and maybe it really is the devil fooling me. That’s why like literally bought the

Unknown Speaker 22:00
40 hour version of the Bible, I read it, I absorbed it, I prayed and had God lead me to book after book. And during this time, just as I am now, I drive a lot for work. So I would listen to a book or two a week and absorb and I absorbed more listening than I do. Reading. Thank God for audible. And I live literally about 100 plus books in the first year and a half about mediumship, the Bible and everything in between all kinds of spirit spiritual things and ask God be those books. So long story short, you can look at Old Testament scripture, and it’s a real long story short, and you can look at some of the things that are written there and think that they apply 100% of black and white today, but I strongly feel that they don’t. And in the book I talk about and one of the one of the there’s lots of verses, but I do Deuteronomy 2222. Where you know, it says that if a man and woman

Unknown Speaker 22:48
are found being unfaithful, they both shall die. Right. Then john a three when Jesus is brought a woman from the Pharisees, what do you do with her? She was caught being unfaithful Jesus doesn’t

Unknown Speaker 23:00
condemn her. He doesn’t even he doesn’t kill her. He just asked her to stop sinning, no basis of everything that I do. And then everything that anyone should do is based in love. Are you doing because of love? Or are you doing it because of fear? And it’s one or the other. And you know what people have certain gifts. We all have gifts, and some of them abuse them. Some of them use them for not good things. It’s like any other profession. There’s people that you know, like you mentioned, doctors malpractice, you know, mediums you have some people that are charlatans and do this just to make money and things like that. That’s what I believe in john four. One it says test the spirits. Why are we supposed to test the spirits if we’re not supposed to communicate with them? You know, Jesus was a medium. If you look in Matthew 17, he channels Moses, Moses has been dead for a long time. Matthew 17 I got goosebumps is one of the biggest Bibles or one of the biggest chapters in the verse, that’s when God announces that Jesus 17 five, this is my son, this is who I you know, has come here for love. You mentioned everything like that, but so you can look it up.

Unknown Speaker 24:00
Testament scripture and see that it says in Leviticus and Deuteronomy and kings and Chronicles that you’re not supposed to consult mediums I answer to those those exists for a reason. Number one, we should not be communicating connecting with spirit. If you’re not protected in God’s light and you’re educated and you’re doing it for love. If you’re not, I highly recommend that you don’t, you can. God blessed us with freewill as freewill as souls as human beings. It works the same way. There are souls that are in the earth plane that have chosen not to return to the light to heaven, because of the free will do not want to connect with them. I have to say prayers before every reading, I have to say prayers. After every reading, I have to shine a white light on me I have to ask for his permission. These gifts are from the Holy Spirit. So am I listening to Old Testament scripture? Maybe there are people that shouldn’t do mediumship and should listen to Old Testament Scriptures why they exist. It’s not so black and white. That’s what I would say. There’s a short it’s not so black and white. There are people that have been given gifts and it says in Corinthians chapter 12, verse four through 11 gifts of spiritual

Unknown Speaker 25:00
discernment, speaking in tongues, prophecy, their gifts. It’s written by Paul in the Corinthians to say that we all have these gifts to help other people. It’s written in Peter, First Peter, chapter four, eight through 11, and talks about using your gifts, your spiritual gifts to help others. So by listen to the old dogma, right, or what I was taught before about mediums, then I wouldn’t be experiencing the love, the healing, and everything that goes along with mediumship. And like for you, for I do a lot of readings for parents who’ve lost children. And if they committed suicide, or I’m sorry, if I’m trying to work on my word, and if they were responsible for their own passing.

Unknown Speaker 25:39
You know, that’s fundamentalist not to speak for all of them, but a lot of them from conversations would think that they’re an eternal hell. They also know as a parent, am I going to be saved and spend my life in eternal bliss of all my child is an eternal damnation, or you know, is maybe that’s not true. And so when I channel these souls that have fallen on their own hand or committed their own

Unknown Speaker 26:00
After taking a case give READ WRITE wording in there on the other side in the spiritual realm, and I know not know, because I don’t claim to know anything but I believe all my experiences in the hundreds of souls I’ve connected to, that have taken their own life. There, okay. They tell me things that would just blow your mind. So you can either be stuck in Old Testament scripture and saying, nope, I don’t want to do anything with that. Or you could say that, hey, maybe what I’ve read what I’ve always believed, and what I’ve been taught may not be true. Because there’s people to your point right here right now that are telling me different things. And there’s this little part of me, this is who I want to reach those little part of people that say, you know, maybe there is some truth to this, maybe my child is okay, maybe they’re not going to interpret my uncle who was Jewish or my other person who didn’t believe in Jesus or this other religion, you know, that wasn’t believing in Jesus, they’re not an eternal hell, that they are okay. And so that will be what I do and you can to answer your question long story short, we can either look at scripture as black and white, the only truth of God

Unknown Speaker 27:00
Or we can say, hey, maybe God still speaks today, the Holy Spirit still still speak today, Jesus actually still speaks today. And there are other things that may be a reality, or a possibility that may be different than my, my thoughts and beliefs and Old Testament scripture. Yeah, I think you made a lot of excellent points there. And some of the things that I went through, you know, a one of the things that I went through when I was going through my transition, I guess, is that I was reading the, I hate to use the word Old Testament because it’s actually in the front, two people who are Jewish. So it’s, I call it Hebrew Scriptures. But when we took when we talked about the Hebrew Scriptures, those are written for the Jews, first of all, and we’re Gentiles. So it’s like, we were never under the law. We read those as if they applied us. The other thing is in the same book that says where you know, you shouldn’t consult with mediums, or you shouldn’t be homosexual, and also says you shouldn’t eat shellfish. And it uses the exact same word that it’s a quote, abomination. And it was these were, these were dietary things. These are restrictions that were put on the Jews to make them separate. So

Unknown Speaker 28:00
There’s there’s so much that we could talk about there. But this is why we really have to dig in and understand, like even the concept of being a homosexual there was no concept of homosexuality back then. So it was they didn’t understand that there were there were some people who just had that orientation. So when Paul talks about when Paul talks about a man lying with another man, he’s actually talking about

Unknown Speaker 28:21
pedophilia, where men were like, grown men were boys. So it was it was a different thing. So that’s my whole point. We got it, we got to really dig in and understand.

Unknown Speaker 28:30
And it all comes down to love. That’s all what it means. It’s the only English word to explain is love. Are you doing something based in love? or fear? Like for instance, marriage, you know, you can look at certain scriptures it says, Man and Woman forever, whatever. Or, you know, from my experience, I’ve had souls telling me that they were supposed to be with this person for a chunk of time, and then there was supposed to be with another person for a chunk of time, and that would if you looked at it, to Scripture, that’s like wrong, but in reality is it love If two people can mutually agree

Unknown Speaker 29:00
They’re gonna separate and then they end up being happily married. I have friends that are friends with the new husbands and wives and everyone’s happy and full of love, but it’s against scripture. So like, Is that wrong in God’s eyes? I highly doubt that. And that’s just one small example. Is it love? Or is it fear? And that’s what it and I talked about that in the book. It’s one of either other in which one are you choosing? Yeah. And when people talk about mediumship, as being from the devil, I like okay, well, the devil is doing a lousy job then because he’s bringing people all kinds of peace and love and understanding and expanded view of themselves and a better view of mankind. And I’ve seen people heal through medium readings. I’ve seen people heal through reading near death experiences, and just just lighting up and say, Wow, this is really true. And it confirms what the Bible tells us, right tells us we’re eternal beings, that we you know, that we that we live forever that we’re not we’re not just our bodies. I mean, all these things are brought out from the work that you do. So it’s just amazing matter. It’s like you said the Bible says testicular

Unknown Speaker 30:00
BY the SPIRIT, what’s this? What’s this producing? What’s the fruit of your of your work? Right? Then you can have someone who’s given this gift, who chooses to use love and help others. And you can have someone who, with free will has a gift and chooses to charge too much. You know, makeup stuff, you name it. It’s love over fear. And I will talk about Have you ever, ever, ever heard of Rob Bell? But I just read his book, and I really enjoyed it. And he talks about, you know, it’s almost like a logical explanation. And he talks about does God get what he wants? Because you see, I asked you to, you know, Does God get what he wants? Yeah, of course, God gets what he wants. He’s everything. Right? So does he want all of this children to return home and be in eternal bliss with him? Yes. So if God what he wants, wants what he wants, and gets what he wants, and he wants us to return to an eternal life with him and you know, live in bliss, then how in the world is anyone supposed to be able to go to hell because if it even exists, because if God gets what he wants, then

Unknown Speaker 31:00
He’s not getting what he wants. And that’s not even possible. So it’s just he goes through that there’s a big chapter in his book talking about like, that’s not even possible that this eternal hell exists. Because it God always gets what he wants. That’s to return home with him. And I firmly believe no matter what religion, no matter what you do, even if it’s the worst thing in the world, it’s self judgment. And eventually, according to, from what I’ve understood, time doesn’t even exist on the other side, but from our human perspective, we will all return home to with him. You know, I mentioned the book Jesus called the heaven Moses called the promised land. The Buddha called it Nirvana. Right It’s all the same thing. We get to all return home and it’s not just the Select elite few that choose Jesus, that some of them right I choose Jesus, you choose Jesus, but there are other people that the 1.2 billion Muslims and the 5 billion other people religions in the world they get to go home to to God and be with Him forever. Welcome back to grief to growth and just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian is an author and a life coach, if you’re grieving or know someone who is grieving his book,

Unknown Speaker 32:00
grief to growth is a best selling easy to read book that might help you or someone you know, people work with Brian as a life coach to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers at www grief to growth com www dot g ri e f the number two gr o w th calm or text growth gr o w th 231996. If you’d like to support this podcast visit www.patreon.com slash grief to growth www.patrn.com slash g ri f the number two gr o w th to make a financial contribution. And now back to grief to growth.

Unknown Speaker 32:51
You know

Unknown Speaker 32:53
yeah you know it’s interesting you when you met your rod ducks I remember reading his book years ago when he first started kind of going down this path and I forgot that

Unknown Speaker 33:00
The title The first book he kind of came out with where he kind of hinted on what we call Christian universalism, which was my first step away from that eternal health thing. And the Christian Universalist believes that Jesus sacrifice saves everybody, I don’t believe is a sacrifice saves anybody at this point, but that’s that was my first step out. But when Rob kind of hinted at that man, they that he talked about fear, they just, they just hammered him. And there’s a guy named Carleton Pearson, who was a pastor, Pentecostal pastor came up under Oral Roberts, and had this mega church and was just super popular. When he started talking about universalism. I mean, everything just went away. I mean, he lost, he lost everything. And I followed him as he went through that that thing, and it’s just interesting to me how this this idea that everybody can be saved for so many Christians is it’s so it’s filled with fear to like, you can’t tell people that. And I read a guy, William Talbert wrote a book called The irresistible love of God, one of the best books I’ve ever read.

Unknown Speaker 34:00
He talks about Calvinism and arminianism. You know, these two basically branches of Christianity. So one says that guy gets whatever he wants. Calvinism says, guy gets whatever he wants, but God only wants to save certain people. So God is predestined, that these people are going to be saved. And these people aren’t guessed. All the Calvinists are predestined to be saved. So God has irresistible grace, you can’t you can’t resist it. But he selected you. And he has incited you by the way, there’s total depravity and you you’re just done. It just created you so he can throw you to hell. And the other side is arminianism, which says, Well, God wants to save everybody, but he just can’t, because you have freewill, and he gave you free will as a gift. So you can choose to send yourself to eternal damnation, right? And I’m like, these are the two major branches of Christianity. If you think about it, almost all Christian churches fit into one of those two paradigms. And this guy chooses a third way says, Yes, God gets whatever he wants, and God wants everyone to be saved. And that means you’re going to be saved.

Unknown Speaker 35:00
If you want it or not, that doesn’t mean that he precludes your free will, but you will eventually return to God. Now, that brings into things like, you know, maybe there’s reincarnation, you know, maybe there’s multiple lifetimes that we take to get back and the Bible hints at that as well. Mm hmm. Yeah, I included a chapter on reincarnation in my book, and I’ll see ya there. But you know, Matthew, there’s a couple verses in john three, three, when he talks about, you know, born again, by the water birth, I mean, you know, or even in Matthew 17, where he says, john, Elijah is is john the baptist, you just don’t know it is his soul came back. And so to your point about reincarnation, I never believed in that, that God made me for me and I talked about this in the book. Yeah, he made for you. But he also made the higher part of you that’s living many experiences lifetime and I’ve actually channeled people that have told me, they’ve lived other other lives of people. They’ve, they came back I did a reading last month where I was channeling and this has experienced some weird things that are against logical thinking. But I was doing A reading for a while.

Unknown Speaker 36:00
And it was her, it ended up being her grandmother’s soul living as her. And the way she validated was a lot of a lot of things. But I was like, Does your mom tell you that you act and look like you’re like her mother? And she’s like, all the time. And it was actually her soul coming. It’s crazy to think I mean, most people hear that and think, no way, because it doesn’t make sense. Her mother came back to live as her daughter in this lifetime to experience all kinds of things. And she back like she literally validated that with things that I wouldn’t even know something about a cop and something about things like you know, boggle your mind. But yeah, so there’s, there’s these, you know, I don’t want to call them truths because I feel like I would be ignorant to say that I know or this is the truth. You’ll never hear those words come out of my mouth. You’ll hear me say I believe I think I feel because there really is no way to know so if I feel like for someone to claim they know the truth. I feel like it’s you know, the word often gets misused, but it’s ignorant. It means lack of knowledge. If you don’t know none of us know if anyone can say No, you don’t. That’s Yeah, you

Unknown Speaker 37:00
The thing is, Daniel as we go through this, but I encourage people because as I said, there’s a lot of fear. I think this ties in Christianity and I was I grew up in it right? So they taught you don’t trust your own heart, your heart is evil above all things. So basically trust us, right? Listen to what we tell you. Don’t listen to your heart, which I now know is the opposite. We all we’ve all been given intuition. We’ve all been given a heart and we all have, we know the truth. When we hear we get you and I both been getting these goosebumps, right? We get these God bumps, some people call them when we hear the truth. And when we hear someone speak the truth, it’s like, it’s not like we’re learning it. It’s worth remembering it. That’s why it resonates so deeply with us. And I would always tell people, like, understand your Bible, don’t just read your Bible, that’s fine. But understand the bible history. Read different translations understand like for right now, example, the word hell, there’s the report, it’s disappearing from the Bible. Because most of the places where was translated hell was a mis translation every place in the Old Testament.

Unknown Speaker 38:00
It’s a mistranslation because I use the word Schiele, which is the grave, but when you read the King James, you think everybody who’s dead goes to hell. And even when you read the New Testament, Jesus uses the word ohana, which was an actual physical place that that Jews knew. They knew he was talking in parables when he said it, but it got translated in our Bibles as hell. So this this takes a lot of work to dig out.

Unknown Speaker 38:24
Yeah, the gahanna, which Rob Bell also talks about was like a trash area where they burn trash and like the gnashing of teeth is the animals that were trying to eat the food from the trash. It’s not, you know, in my opinion, is not an eternal hell. And it’s funny you say that because, you know, listen to your heart, because the first chapter in my book, so and I literally am not kidding, I had the conversation with this friend of mine who is a fundamentalist, you know, by the book, Christian who doesn’t really understand or believe that what I’m doing is right in the eyes of God, and he said, verbatim, I don’t listen to my heart because my heart tells me all kinds of bad things. I only listen

Unknown Speaker 39:00
To the Bible, and I just, it’s the opposite of what I’ve always been taught of love is God speaks through your heart. He knows you. And I always mentioned you know, it’s a semantic, physical, you know, body part thing, but is to not listen with the ego mind with all the things in the world that we know we shouldn’t do, and to listen with our hearts and to trust what God is telling us in the book. I have a couple experiences where, you know, one of them was I’ll give a little hint towards the book because I was going to go on this all inclusive paid vacation. Yeah, I actually turned it down because my heart was telling me and through spirit was saying, You’re not supposed to go, there’s going to be this is just not meant to happen. So as soon as I listened to that and gave it away, my heart led me down a path and has always led me down the path to, you know, of this of my highest, you know, to help others. Yeah, I have to be really careful because I don’t want to condemn anybody else’s path or anybody’s faith or anything. But there is a branch but let’s say at least of Christianity, that’s basically cult like right? Anybody that tells you not to listen to yourself and to listen to us or listen to you.

Unknown Speaker 40:00
book are our interpretation of a book, by the way, not just the book, but our interpretation of the book that someone has taken away your freewill and someone’s taking away your power. And so I, I will say this that I will say I think is true. We all need to listen to our own hearts. And I think that God speaks through us and we need to turn inward and say, What is the truth? And so if you’re looking at something, and it’s good, right, it’s bringing people peace, and it’s bringing people joy, and it’s bringing people love. And someone says, Well, no, that’s, that’s, that’s not a good thing. You know, listen to yourself, listen to your intuition.

Unknown Speaker 40:35
And that was the hardest thing for me to do, because I would have I still get them about once a week. Maybe someone will tell me, I’m going to hell they know better. Jesus is the only way I’m channeling the devil. And they don’t know the parent who

Unknown Speaker 40:52
messages me and says that I was going to mention it earlier. I gotta never forget a woman. She lost her son. And I think

Unknown Speaker 41:00
It was so it was a while ago and she messaged me and said thank you for my reading. Thank you for bringing him through. I have not left my house in a year since he died. And I been going back to church I have faith in God again and I left my house I can smile now. Right? We pumps so that was and I think that was even a free reading which is the basket I love doing that with not taking any money. And I said that last week I got an email from someone saying I’m going to hell and channeling a devil if they could just see the peace and love and healing that comes from these readings. I’ve done over 1000 of them and I by blow my own mind. I’ve actually gotten full names before, but it comes from the Holy Spirit I credit the Holy Spirit. If it wasn’t for God, I wouldn’t be I wouldn’t have this. So yes, it for anyone who is watching and you have whether it’s mediumship or any kind of spiritual gifts and someone is telling you different I preached this all the time on my my, my show and everything is you need to listen to your heart and what’s God telling you in your heart. Even though someone else is telling you different we can’t get caught up in what other people

Unknown Speaker 42:00
People feel believe and think we have to listen to God because He speaks to our heart or listen to our heart because he speaks through it. And I feel like a lot of people get restricted ahead of just 20 minutes before we get on here. I had a woman say that because of my teaching site, we were saying, because it’s me, but my teachings and the book is letting her to embrace her gift. And her life has been amazing because of it. It’s like, Oh, that’s the devil doing work. And she’s healing other people. And it’s all love And so yeah, it takes a lot of stepping outside your comfort zone, and you gotta deal I got to deal with some people like that. And we know what I do. I send them love. You watch my you see on YouTube, I posted the mediumship first Christianity or someone who gives me a negative review on Facebook, which isn’t from a reading it’s from, you know, the only one I gotten 150 was someone leading Old Testament scripture. I send them love and I respond with love because that’s what Jesus taught me. I think that’s great. And I you know, I interview a lot of people that have near death experiences, I put them on my YouTube channel and every once in a while I get all these people say, this is so great. This is

Unknown Speaker 43:00
Maybe feels so much better. I know my husband’s still here I know my child so here etc and then you get those people and I look at them and I feel sorrow for them because they’re they’re living in bondage you know they don’t understand that we’ve actually been set free because the way I look at it we’re loving in love we’re following our hearts and so I don’t let them get me down at all I feel sorry for them and I will I will engage with them and I’ll tell them you know, like we’re just saying you know, tests of spirit. what’s what’s the fruit of this what’s the fruit of this person coming back to saying that all as well I can think of this woman Heidi Craig interview. I was well I will be well and your unconditional love You’re never alone. Those are the three messages she brought back from the end. I don’t I don’t think Satan has given us that message. Right now. In the in the interesting part about that is it all comes from either and I talked about this in my YouTube video either comes from a book that was written 2000 years ago which is a great book and it has a very valid a lot of great stories in it. I miss it a quote unquote what I

Unknown Speaker 44:00
yield to the misinterpretation of Old Testament scripture, or it’s what you were just taught at one point I talked about it in my new YouTube video is a lot of people that feel that it’s against the Bible, you know, against, you know, it’s the devil’s work. They just heard it, or they were told that and so people hear things and we’re, you know, we get things and we absorbed them. But did we really figure it out for ourselves, or we’re just coached or taught back? And I think about half of my guess is I talked on the videos about half the people. They don’t even really know there’s Old Testament scripture that talks about it. They just heard from their church or from their family, or from whoever they heard it from someone else, they’re from someone else, that it’s wrong. That’s it. They don’t have these experiences with over 1000 readings and spirit communication where I’ve experienced the amount of love would would boggle some of these people’s minds that are just so closed off to it. If they would just take a second and reconsider what they’ve taught what they believe. You know, you have a 50 year old man always believe that, you know, as an MD and his whole life changes

Unknown Speaker 45:00
My role in the world is to take those people that are in the middle that are a little bit open to this, even though they may have heard that or feel that, to reconsider based on what I have in the book, what I’ve talked about the video and what many, many other teachers and mediums and preachers talk about, because there are some preachers that talk about, you know, the experience of spiritualist churches, they were supposed to connect with spirit, the Bible is full of prophecy. So we’re open minded enough to be open to something that may be different than what you always thought to believe in that is kind of like this whole chunk of conversation is what you and what I experienced to kind of get us out into true experience true love and operating a high vibration. Yeah, you know, it’s interesting, we talked about churches, and I was doing my research and coming out, you know, I feel like I kind of made an exodus out of that that bondage that I was in. But I was doing my research there like over 30,000 Christian denominations. It sounds crazy, but the number is, it’s really on calculable, but it’s 10s of thousands. So if you’re going to a church

Unknown Speaker 46:00
Just says this is this, this is this and this is the only way it is you can literally walk across the corner to another Christian church that saying something very different. I ended up as I was, I went to a UCC church for a while now I mentioned music. I went to a Unity Church for a while. And the Unity Church, actually, there’s a medium that was attending the church and was out and said, I’m a medium and the pastor talked about it. So there are there are churches that will say, and they read the Bible, but they also read other spiritual texts. And they’ve kind of they’ve kind of said, you know, it’s not this restrictive. And this is a good thing. They would do Reiki healings after service that like every once a month, they have healings, healing Sunday, and people healers will come in and do healing. Okay, in the Bible tells us so many hands on people. How is that not Reiki? I mean, that’s, that’s Reiki. Jesus, Jesus performed healings. That was a form of Reiki, you know, talk about in Revelations 120. When they say the seven candlesticks, the scene, it’s the seven chakras. He’s showing up as an

Unknown Speaker 47:00
energy, which is what he is. So it’s so much needed so much to it. But yeah, it’s if I had to, you know, say one thing to someone who’s watching your podcasts or someone who’s gone through grief and even questions of whether they should consult a medium or do it because of Old Testament scripture or what they were taught, reconsider all because there’s people like me, for instance, like you who are spreading God’s love and sharing a word of something that may be different than what they believed in. And the amount of healing that comes from a reading is, you know, and last thing the guy had a conversation yesterday was so close minded to what I do, didn’t even want to hear about it. If he would just be willing to listen and hear what I experienced because he’s stuck and thinks it’s the devil. He doesn’t want to hear it. He would be shocked he would be. If you could use his human heart and understand that what I do is from him from God and for love, then I think more people would be open to something like mediumship because it’s so healing, so healing, and I would encourage people

Unknown Speaker 48:00
To study other faiths not to, not to convert, but when you do, as you’ve done, and as I’ve done, you’ll find out the same basic truth underlies all of them. And I could I could take a Christian and give them the Quran and take the cover off of it. And most of them cannot tell me whether it’s the Quran or the Bible, because the truths are the same. And I remember there was a congressman, I can’t remember his name, I wish I could. But he was he hated Islam. He was he was a fundamentalist Christian. So Islam is of the devil, that Allah is the moon, God be believed Allah was not God and all this stuff. But then he actually studied Islam a little bit and understood and he wrote a book as it’s called something like a deadly misunderstanding. But he ended up writing an entire book on the on the Islamic faith, and how it parallels Christianity. And most people don’t know that the Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet. They believe that Jesus is the Son of God, not in the sense that he was forgotten by God. Because they said God doesn’t big yet, but they believe that Jesus is of God, they expect a second return.

Unknown Speaker 49:00
A lot of people don’t know how similar the two faiths are. And Jesus has a tomb right next to the two founders of Islam. He’s right. When he comes back, it’s the third tomb, which is Jesus. So that’s why I’m saying to people, I just encourage you to kind of break out of these these chains that you’re in and do your own studying your own exploration. And don’t be Don’t be afraid that it’s going to lead you away from your faith.

Unknown Speaker 49:25
Mm hmm. And it’s okay to keep the faith. I’m telling you, I through readings, and I know, I don’t know if we’re going to get to this, but in my readings, it’s the most subtle impressions, feelings, it’s not conversations, I don’t see them. I don’t hear them. I just feel them. And they often say keep the faith, you know, and I have had people returned to their Catholic groups, to their Christian roots to their Muslim roots, you know, whatever, whatever, you know, religion they are and spirit encourages it. And you know, I don’t know if you ever heard the Course in Miracles, but I feel like the teachings of Jesus can be channeled or learned at all times. It didn’t just stop there.

Unknown Speaker 50:00
thousand years ago, and I’ve listened to a lot of that. And they he often says that there there is no religion. That’s right. And there’s no religion to draw it just so I feel like if someone is Muslim in this lifetime, that’s what they’re supposed to be if you get someone who wrote that book and convert, that was what he’s supposed to be your that is what faith is going to bring you to God. But it’s not just the pigeonhole because of the one verse because I don’t know anything other than john 14 six, and I couldn’t have been ignorant to that. But it just says that I am the way I am the light. I don’t think there’s many other scriptures that says he’s the only way. Many scriptures talk about all everyone. I mean, it’s throughout the whole Bible. It’s not just the followers of this one. amazing, wonderful who you and I choose to follow. So yeah, all in the same time. So you did you touch on this, let’s talk about this. How does mediumship work because I think people have a misunderstanding. They think that okay, Daniel sits down, the spirit walks in, sits beside and he looks at him the spirit just starts talking to him. So how does it actually work? Yeah, and I think that’s what my next book is going to be about. But I do hint at it too. In this

Unknown Speaker 51:00
book, but it’s not how you think I don’t. I don’t know the future. I don’t predict the future. I don’t know. You know, I only allow people to come to me one time because I feel like they’re supposed to build that relationship of God. You don’t need a medium. I say you do need God. But it’s subtle impressions. And I’ll just give one small example. And it’s my favorites in the book. I was doing A reading for a woman and I hear the summer of 69 by Bryan Adams. It’s just It’s a song. So I asked her Do you like Bryan Adams? Do you like 60 minute plays in my head? It’s not like an audible but I feel and I haven’t heard that song in years. And now she had previously told me that her her. I had to first talk about the name J. Who’s the J. And she said and she said I was married to a Jeffrey, but my current husband is Jody. So I mentioned some things about her dad came through and about, I validated some things about her divorce and her husband’s her dad’s passing long story short, so then the song comes in my head. Do you like Bryan Adams does the song mean anything to you?

Unknown Speaker 52:00
69 anything is at June 9, because we have to, it’s a game of charades. So we have to figure out what the spirits trying to say. So we can’t figure it out. She doesn’t know June 9 has nothing to do like Bryan Adams. So I asked if my mind can I move on on and I get this firm like, No, it’s just like this feeling. And I’m like, okay, your dad won’t let me get past this. So I’m thinking, you know, I’m thinking of the song and I’m like, to me quit. Jodi got married. I go, Jody, I go, that’s your husband’s name, right? And she’s like, yes. get goosebumps. And I’m like, Did your dad miss the wedding? Was he already passed? And she said, Yes. And obviously, you could think that because her ex husband was around the time he passed. And I’m like, well, he’s telling me to tell you that he didn’t miss the wedding. He was there with you.

Unknown Speaker 52:40
And that’s the way he chose to do it. And then so then we’re all like, emotional, whatever. I’m like, why am I seeing a star? I just see a star. She’s like, well, it was nighttime. And I’m like, No, that doesn’t feel right. She’s like, Michael, were there stars out? And she’s like, yeah, I’m like, No, it doesn’t feel right. And so we’re sitting there and like Star Star, and she goes, Oh my gosh, I cut a star out of his story.

Unknown Speaker 53:00
jacket and put it on my wedding dress so that he was with me. So like I there’s no way I would know that she couldn’t figure it out. So spirit uses all kinds of songs names groups of letters to communicate with with us. And I have to figure out what it is we have symbols, right so when I became that’s my symbol to talk about that the Spirit knows that the person I’m getting the reading to thinks that they remember how they were towards the time they passed and doesn’t remember them how they were in the healthy times. And it’s too much on their mind when they show me raisins. I’ve talked about California for whatever reason, and all kinds of symbols. So you’ll watch like 360s all the major mediums, but we all do have like a like a dictionary, you know, and this means this because it’s not as good as you may think. And and one of the last things before we go I know we’re hitting on the hour, is I always worried about reading other people’s minds. I didn’t ever wanted to do that. I would never want to like bring your daughter through and have it be some information that somehow is getting from you. So through so spirit over time has shown me things

Unknown Speaker 54:00
that a person does not understand. They don’t understand what I’m saying. And it takes a little bit of research to validate whatever it was. And it will be all kinds of crazy things. But it took a lot of those to help me realize that I wasn’t just reading your mind. And this was actually coming somehow, some way from the soul of your loved one. And that that was a huge thing for me. And I’ve had hundreds of validations stuff, something like that where you didn’t Dan would have met at the time. Yeah, you touched on so much really important stuff there. But for people that aren’t familiar with mediumship, I want to kind of emphasize what you said, and I’ve got a few minutes if you do so.

Unknown Speaker 54:34
The mediums are reading I think it’s kind of interactive thing. And it’s like an interactive game of charades. Because I you know, I won’t tell the story because you just did but, you know, it’s like you get a symbol and you give it to the person like Well, I don’t get this and then they give you some feedback and you kind of figure out together what that’s what that song meant. Right? But it takes a little bit of work. It’s not like it’s like Spirit came in and said yeah, I was there at the wedding you when you marry God

Unknown Speaker 55:00
So I think that was really interesting. But this was a question I was gonna ask you kind of brushed by it pretty quickly. You said you only have like clients have one private paid one on one session with you. It’s really unusual because I know people that go back to the same medium over and over again. They’re medium hopping, they’ll have medium readings over. So why is that your policy?

Unknown Speaker 55:21
Some people have snuck through. But it’s my policy because I feel like we’re, I feel like we’re supposed to navigate our path with God. I don’t feel like we’re supposed to be stuck on, you know, mediums or people to rely on certain people to connect to our loved ones so as to connect with God directly. But also be you don’t need a medium to connect with your loved ones. Like I said, Jesus was a mini channel of Moses and Elijah reading the Bible. And it was for a very big reason. So if you lose someone you love in physical form, and they’re still around, because eternal life exists, as Jesus showed us, and you want to connect with them, you don’t need me. My job is to help nudge you and push you on that path so that you can connect with them yourself. Why would

Unknown Speaker 56:00
Why would you have to spend time and pay at someone when you can connect with someone? all on your own? You don’t need to meet us. I’ve had I’ve had spirits Tell me through me. You don’t need him. Literally you don’t need Daniel, come through my mind. Thank you for doing the standard. You don’t need him. You can connect to me all yourself. Yeah. So

Unknown Speaker 56:18
go ahead. Well, I want to ask you is you talked about, you know, you don’t want people to be dependent on you or mediums at all. And I’ve seen people have a reading from a medium like a group reading setting. And they’ll say, Well tell Bobby I love him. And it’s like, what they because they don’t realize they can tell their loved one themselves. So in the book, you talk about an ongoing relationship with your father and you actually call the dialogue that you have with your father. So explain to people what that actually means and how they can have that with their loved one. Yeah, it’s all about trust Brian, it’s it’s even as a medium when I connect with my dad. It’s not solid. It’s not strong. It’s just I have to I almost feel like I’m making it up. But you know, I talked about in the book of a story I had on an airplane and they were

Unknown Speaker 57:00
Use things, whether it’s an animal or a situation or a group of words to validate what they’re saying, in other words, so when I connect with him, and I talk to him, and I feel like he’s talking back, I don’t hear him. It’s almost like you’re making it up. But when you trust that it’s really coming from his soul. And, and you really believe that not only will you become to believe it’s true, but once in a while you get these validations. Right, like, well, I don’t want to go to the story, but you’ll get something to wear something like it doesn’t make sense. It’s not possible. So it really had to be I couldn’t have made it up myself because it came from somewhere. So we all have that ability. It’s just it’s all about trust. And you know, I talked about with Jesus and connecting with Moses, right? I mean, it says it right in the Bible. If you look at john 1412 and Corinthians 11. One it says that we’re supposed to do the work that Jesus says, obviously we’re just talking about connecting with spirit. And I feel like if I allow people to come over and over again and we get stuck in the addictive, you know, I had to quit gambling for my gift but I there are people that get so

Unknown Speaker 58:00
so caught up with going to mediums and want to connect with our loved ones, when they realize they can do it themselves, there’s so much value in that.

Unknown Speaker 58:07
And I do have people that come to me and say, I connect to my child, for instance, all the time, but it’s just nice to come to you. And so I do allow repeats, I’ve started to like, go back and forth with this. Cuz I did two weeks ago, I had to repeat it in a row that kind of snuck through because I have a process, you know, yeah. And the readings were great. It really helped them. So it made me like, reconsider. So I stick with that. But if someone you know, not to promote someone sneaking through again, but I just I feel like God in the Holy Spirit shares with me to share to others, that you don’t need anyone here in physical form to help connect you with source with spirit with your loved one in spirit. And that’s why I kind of like felt that. Well, I think that’s a really important point. That’s why I wanted to really bring that out. Because I feel like I have not I’m not I feel like I have an ongoing relationship with my daughter. But it’s not it’s not a dialogue. I think people would think like well, damn,

Unknown Speaker 59:00
You can just sit down and talk to his father all the time. But it’s it’s it’s subtle things. You we talked about signs, you talked about coins and feathers and Cardinals. And I’ve never heard anybody talk about fruit flies before. But you said one of your signs of your father’s a fruit fly. If it’s okay with you, you know, really quick last year I was the number one rep in my entire company, I was the number one of 100 plus reps. And it was something that I talked about in the law of attraction and having a reality. And so we’re in a sales meeting. I knew I was number one. And the CFO of our entire company is just the CFO. We’re just one small division, this guy gets up and starts talking to the group. And so I’m sitting there watching this show, it’s early in the morning, and

Unknown Speaker 59:42
I see a fruit fly just crossed right in front of my face. And you know, it’s in the hotel, and I don’t even think it was in February, right. And I get this feeling. It’s a feeling of like, I’m very proud of you, son. And I was like, Wow, that was like that’s crazy that he did that was and then thinking was that real like when the cheers

Unknown Speaker 1:00:00
They’re, well I look at my phone and the time is 941 Not only is 41 always been my number, it’s always been a number for me. I don’t know why I’m gonna be 41 a couple months. I think it’s a big year for me, but my dad was born in September 41 to 940. Okay, well, I see a fruit fly go across CFOs there, but I look at my clock and it’s 941 41 then, if it doesn’t get any credit, you know, just I didn’t include the story in my book. Please don’t think I did. Then he goes, he goes like this Now it’s 150 people there he goes. Where’s Daniel? JOHN? Right, john different last thing, but I am like 150 people, there are managers and I raise my hand it goes back guy up in Syracuse. That’s where the rubber meets the road. Like and I’m thinking like, like So not only did the fruit fly come across as 941

Unknown Speaker 1:00:48
and then this guy calls out my name in front of everyone. Yeah. And my dad was saying how proud he was of me. Yes, validation. You get so until I had those validations with the time and the call out from the CFL.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:00
I would have thought I was just making it up because that’s how subtle it is. Right? And, and you as you know, probably eight or nine or the 10s Is she really, you know, she really connecting with me, you know, wasn’t really her. But once I’ve every 10 maybe or so I won’t speak for you, you’ll get this thing was like, Oh my gosh, it really was her because there’s no way I could have made that up. You can’t write stances. So yeah, the majority of time as you got to trust, you know, you’re not making it up. But you’ll get these validations if you pay attention and trust. Yeah, I think that is an excellent story. And I like the way because that’s the way it works for me anyway, because I’m an engineer. So I was calculate the odds of something. No, not literally, but like, Okay, well, I see a cargo you know, I live in Ohio. It’s state Burke. Carter is a fairly common here. But if you see a car No, and it’s 1111. And then your mother calls you or something, or, you know, it’s when these things tie together that that you realized and that was, I think that was a perfect story as to how it’s like someone could suppose it’s a fruit fly in a hotel. Okay, there’s lots of fruit in the hotel, but it’s the timing of the thing. Yeah, and all the validation

Unknown Speaker 1:02:00
Just want to share one more happened the other day, my family my in laws they lost we lost our my father in law or their husband and their father and they went to a medium last Tuesday so we went out to dinner on our way home from dinner. We’re talking about you know, the little bit of the reading and we’re just you know, in celebrating his life and thinking even just thinking about him in the car in front of us. Now my in laws owner of a restaurant and 86 is in the name. The license plate ahead was 8686. And the license plate was from Ohio, which made me think of this. And Ohio is actually where he passed away even though he lives in New York. And then 686 is not only

Unknown Speaker 1:02:38
the name of their business, but it’s a lot of their like past codes and things like that. Nobody said that. names are there but 8686 is a lot of their past codes. So like all of their family and it’s on the license plate and the car front as well. We’re going out to dinner the night that they have saw medium for the first time since he passed with a male license plate which is where he passed away and oh by the way, the white car which all their family has

Unknown Speaker 1:03:00
Being an agent, you can’t make that up. So we’re all looking for like, what are the chances of that at? Yes. And that’s the thing that people need to keep their eyes open for because just real quick, I gotta tell you this story because Shana It was her anniversary date a few weeks ago, June 24, was five years. And so you know, it’s a rough day. So I didn’t ask for science. Other people ask for science and I didn’t want to be disappointed. So a drive driving my wife to therapy, and I look up in front of me and there’s a truck on the back of the truck. It’s not a bumper sticker. It’s like stencil on the back of the truck. It says I am right here, exclamation point. And then my wife, I didn’t even catch it. My wife goes, it’s a sign it’s from shade. It says I’m right here. And I look up in the end. There’s a sticker on the on the back windshield of the truck. That’s you know, these things that say home and it’s the outline of the state for the letter O people were on the T shirts and stuff. It’s a sticker and it’s Ohio and Shana was born in Ohio. We live in Ohio. So I’m like, you know, how can you that that was aside from saying I made like right over right over the head. And then the next day I’m on my walk and I see

Unknown Speaker 1:04:00
There’s a big home sign and one of the houses I walk by every single day that I never hadn’t been there before, or just came, it just appeared that day. So those are the types of things. And I tell these stories, so people know what to look for. Mm hmm. So, yeah, that’s, that’s a great. I love that example in your book. And I share a bunch of other examples like that in my book, like when I found my spirit guides and things like that. So those I think those people have messaged me already, it’s only been about a month. They’ve started they’re starting to get their own signs just by reading the book and exactly, that is why I did it’s not I don’t you know, as an author, you know, we don’t make a ton of money on books. It’s more about helping others and what kind of impact you can have on everyone that reads your book, right? I read your book, the grief to grow it to help people understand and cope with grief. Yeah, me. It’s me, Chip. How does it work? How can I connect with my loved ones? And I think people read these stories and it opens them up somehow. And I had a girl just messaged me yesterday, she started dreaming of her grandma, and she was very close with her and she never dreamt of her until she started reading the book and like the book

Unknown Speaker 1:05:00
opened up to that and it’s just it’s so awesome. And you know, this is not there’s someone breaks you something about how you, you know, you wrote a book and you help them there’s nothing greater than that. Nothing. Absolutely, absolutely. So let’s talk the book is, why are we here reflections on life from spiritual medium by Daniel, john and Daniel, where can people reach you? what’s your website? That’s Daniel john medium.com. And you can actually buy a book off the shop section. And the book is 30 $30 but includes a 20% off coupon for a future reading. So it’s ever zoom reading it’s actually makes the book free and all the shipping and everything free. So but also includes my autograph includes shipping I have to pay sales tax on it.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:43
In the book itself, that you or you if you don’t really care about the coupon or you only need an autograph. You can buy it from Amazon for 14 bucks. Okay, cool. That’s great. That’s a great offer. I appreciate that. Daniel, it’s been good catching up with you again, I know I know you got to run.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:58
I appreciate you doing this.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:00
Thanks for having me, Brian. I really appreciate it. It was fun. All right. Enjoy the rest of your day. Much love. Bye. Well, I hope you enjoyed the episode, I want to make it really easy for you to reach me. So just send me a text 231996 and simply text the word growth gr o w th. In fact you can right now just say hey Siri, send the message. 231996 and when Siri asks you what you want to send, just say growth. You can do the same thing with Ok, Google. Thanks a lot. Have a wonderful day. Thanks for listening to grief to growth. Brian hopes that you find this episode helpful, and we’ll come back for future episodes. Brian’s best selling book grief to growth planted not buried is a great resource for anyone who is coping with grief or know someone who is if you enjoy the podcast and would like to support it, there are three things you can do to help. The first is to share the podcast with someone that you

Unknown Speaker 1:07:00
You think it will help. The second is to go to iTunes rate and review the episode. The third way you can support the podcast is by becoming a patron. Head over to www.patreon.com slash grief to growth. That’s pa t ar e o n.com. Slash grief, the number to growth and sign up to make a small monthly donation. patrons get access to exclusive bonus content and knowledge that you are helping to spread the message of grief to grow. For more about Brian and grief to growth, visit www grief to growth.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The passing of Dr. Wyatt’s father prompted her to move from a family practice physician to hospice care. Dr. Wyatt wanted to help others make their transitions. Little did she know that there were valuable life lessons waiting for her as she did this work.

Dr. Karen Wyatt is the bestselling author of the book “7 Lessons for Living from the Dying”, which contains stories of patients she cared for as a hospice doctor and the spiritual lessons she learned from them at the end of their lives. Dr. Wyatt also hosts End-of-Life University Podcast, which features conversations with experts who work in all aspects of end-of-life care. She is widely regarded as a thought-leader in the effort to transform the way we care for our dying in the U.S.

In addition, she is valued for her application of spiritual principles to illness and healthcare and teaches that in order to live life fully we must each overcome our fear of death and embrace the difficulties that life brings us.

You can find more about Dr. Wyatt at: https://eoluniversity.com

Transcript

Announcer 0:11
Hi there, welcome to grief to growth podcast. Your host is Brian Smith, spiritual seeker, best selling author, grief survivor and life coach. Brian believes that the worst tragedies of life provide the greatest opportunity for growth. Brian says he was planted, not buried, and he is here to help you grow where you’ve been planted by the difficulties in life. In each episode, Brian and his guests will share what has helped them to survive and thrive. It is his sincere hope this episode helps you today.

Brian Smith 0:47
Hey, everybody, this is Brian Smith back with another episode of grief to growth. And I’ve got with me today Dr. Karen Wyatt. I’m going to read Karen’s bio and then we’re going to have a conversation like we always do.

Dr. Karen White is a family physician has spent her 25 year medical career working with patients in challenging settings such as hospices, nursing homes and exit indigent clinics. She has founded a free medical clinic in a homeless shelter, a company of three medical mission teams to her and Doris and led a nonprofit clinic for the uninsured is growth from a four year per four hour per week all volunteer operation to a full time full service Medical Center. Motivated by a compassionate heart, she’s put her spiritual beliefs into action by being of service to others in need, and by developing create creative handling LLC, which is an initiative to integrate spirituality in a traditional medical practice. She has twice testified at senate briefings on the cutting edge model of integrated medical care, combining physical and behavioral health, which she helped create and implement in her clinic for the uninsured. And in addition for her devotion for helping others Dr. White has had a passion for writing since she was a child so during medical school, she helped organize a group of students

into the not ready for exam time players and wrote before skits and song parodies to entertain the school’s entire medical community. Applying her writing skills to medical topics, Dr. White has written a book seven lessons for living from the dying, and we’re going to talk about her book today. It details her experiences as a hospital hospice physician. She also wrote a chapter entitled an integral approach to the end of life for the book consciousness and healing integral approaches to mind body medicine, edited by Marilyn Schlitz and Tina amarak. In addition, Dr. Wyatt wrote and and self published the book a matter of life and death, stories to heal loss and grief, and the ebooks loss and grief Survival Guide and coping with life threatening illnesses. And you can find Dr. Wyatt at Karen white MD calm and find out a lot more about her there. So with that, I want to welcome Dr. White to Grief 2 Growth.

Karen Wyatt 2:50
Thank you, Brian. It’s a pleasure to be here with you today.

Brian Smith 2:53
Thanks. I’m really looking forward to having this conversation. I just looked up your bio right before we got in the x you sent me a very short bio For the for the podcast, you’re very modest. You’ve done a lot of really interesting things and fascinating things. But one of the questions I want to ask you off the top, I’ve talked to people who have been hospice nurses who have talked about the afterlife and what people experienced at the end of death. And I’ve seen a lot of nurses talk about that. But frankly, I haven’t seen many doctors. So do you know if you have any idea why that might be?

Karen Wyatt 3:24
Well, I think a lot of times, it’s amazing. But in medical school and medical training, we don’t learn about death and dying as doctors and a lot of times I think doctors tend to avoid death because they don’t feel comfortable with it. And they view the death of their patients as a failure. And so it’s it’s not something that they are comfortable with for the most part unless they’re, unless they have received training in hospice. And so it’s unfortunate because I think doctors would be able to provide much better care for the whole patient, if they could just embrace the end of life.

And, and deal with that and address it with their patients. But at this point, we still don’t have enough education for doctors around death. Yeah, I think I’m hearing there, there might be some changes now where they are teaching some things about death to doctors. Is that true? Yes, it’s starting to change and a lot of medical schools and residency programs are incorporating some at least some workshops or, or modules on death and dying. But one problem is, it’s a kind of a lack of people within the profession who are actually able to teach it who actually have enough experience to be able to teach the students so sometimes, the faculty members who are teaching about death, haven’t had that much experience with it themselves. They’re just trying to create a curriculum, so it’s changing and it will get better over time. But yeah, I was worrying about that because I was wondering if it’s like, because the doctors aren’t around when patients are dying is typically the nurses or if it’s the training because doctors are you know, there’s so scientific

If they can materialistic or if it’s just like you touched on, it’s just a death is seen as the ultimate failure if you’re a doctor, I would imagine. Yeah, that’s part of it. And you were right. The first thing you said that doctors often are not around when the patient actually dies. And I even remember in our residency training program where we are assigned patients to work with that will be good teaching cases. If a patient is terminal and expected to die soon, they don’t assign them to residents, because they don’t view that as a, as a good teaching patient that you could learn from. And that’s just so unfortunate, because if every doctor during their training had been with even just one patient as they were dying in their last dying hours, I think it would change everything in medicine, but we’re working toward it. Hopefully that will happen. Yeah. So how did you get interested in hospice as a doctor? Well, it’s my story came about because of tragedy and

grief with which I know you’re familiar. I was I trained in family medicine. And so I was a young doctor, and just had just started in my practice. I had my own clinic, and my father died by suicide. And it was absolutely devastating to me. And just as much as it would be for anyone losing a father in that way, but for me, in particular, as a doctor, and in my medical training, I’ve done extra training in psychiatry and psychology. And to know I couldn’t help my own father with his depression, and I couldn’t save my own father. It really shattered me. So I was dealing with a huge load of guilt and grief, both that I was carrying, and ultimately, I wasn’t, I wasn’t getting better for three years I was floundering, not functioning very well as I was carrying all this grief and I one day just got the inspiration. I should I should call

hospice and see if they, if I could volunteer there because it occurred to me, maybe I need to dive in to the middle of the pain, dive right into death and dying and grief. In order to deal with it any thought I will either sink there will either sink or will learn how to swim through this. And indeed, that’s what happened. I once I got to hospice and started seeing patients there, I realized that that was actually where I was meant to be all along. I fell in love with the practice and being with patients and I ultimately shifted my whole career path at that point to hospice full time. So you started out there as a volunteer, and then you decide to go in and do it full time. Yeah, I did it full time. Later in later years. I went back into family medicine. So that’s when I did though, clinics and homeless shelters. For some, you know, the hospice work really inspired me to see medicine as a spiritual path. And so, no matter where I was, no matter what I did, I wanted to use my medical skills

and knowledge to help me grow spiritually but also to be of service to my community. So.

So I always worked in hospice. And then on the side of Family Medicine, I kind of did a combination of both of them in the later years. Wow. So what were your spiritual beliefs going into hospice? And did they change after you started working in hospice? Well, one thing that’s interesting, I had this epiphany when I was a teenager, about love that I am here to learn, to, to love to learn to give and to receive love. And that was my overriding philosophy and belief system. When I went to medical school I saw love is what heals Love is the force that can heal people. And but I saw I was naive in some ways, and idealistic. And it was really that’s one of my beliefs that got shattered by my dad’s death because he was one of the people I loved most in the world.

I had to ask myself if my love couldn’t save my own dad, how do I think my ability to love will save a patient? So I had to go back and start all over again thinking about love. What is love? How do we actually share love with people? And hospice allowed me to do that, because that’s something I saw all my patients struggling with to at the end of life, this idea of love, so I feel like it gave me a chance to learn more authentically, and more spiritually about love instead of the rather naive way I thought of love before this tragedy happened, if that makes any sense. Sure, absolutely. What were your beliefs is in terms of the afterlife when you were going into hospice? And did that change any? I was, um, I would say I was aware that there was something bigger than just this physical existence, but I wasn’t sure what that was. But after many experiences of being at the bedside,

With hospice patients, it became really clear to me that that we continue on in some form or another after death, because so many patients had loved ones visit them, or talk to them or connect with them in a way before they died. And, and they would tell me all about that, I think partly because I was open to it. So I let them know I was willing to hear whatever they wanted to share. And it convinced me that, that those experiences are real, that it’s it’s not

drug side effects the patient is experiencing or anything else that it’s a real spiritual experience. So whereas before I knew there was something but I wasn’t sure if we continued on or or what it was

beyond death, but after hospice work, I became certain that there is an afterlife, and perhaps many afterlives for us, perhaps many lives.

Brian Smith 11:00
Yeah, you know, as you mentioned that it’s really interesting that some listeners may know this, some may not know this, but a lot of times when people are coming close to the end of their physical life, they’ll be visited by loved ones on the other side. And I’ve seen it with actually, both of my in laws, we’ll talk about someone that just came to visit them. And it’s almost always if not always someone who’s already deceased. So it’s not like they’re just hallucinating because it’s hardly ever anyone that’s still on the side. And they’ll say, they were just here. You just missed them. Yes, yes, I’ve seen it over and over again. Also, some patients tell me that they had gone somewhere else that they themselves had traveled somewhere else, and they came back from there and wanted to talk about it. So it was similar to a near death experience and talking about seeing lights and feeling love and how beautiful it was. And in every case for those patients, it was so reassuring. It took away any fear that they had and and it really

Karen Wyatt 12:00
help their families at least when we could talk about what was happening that this is a positive experience and your loved one is at peace now and feeling comfortable with with what’s taking place because because they feel loved and they feel protected and secure. Yeah, so you saw that too, because I interviewed Deborah diamond, who’s a medium who’s volunteers a hospice, and she talked about this, like the patients are traveling back and forth, there between both worlds. So did you see that too? Yes, before for the first few years, I didn’t quite know what was happening. It seemed clear to me, the patients were not there. They were in a comatose, state and unresponsive and I knew something’s happening there somewhere. They’re working on something. But it became clear when some of them were able to start talking about what they had experienced when they were in a coma. Some were able to become alert again and talk about it. And then I realized that this they definitely are there. It’s as if they have

Brian Smith 13:00
Have a foot in each realm and they’re going back and forth. Yeah. And I’ve heard of, I call it terminal lucidity. I’m not that’s a real term. We’re not interested in that. Okay. Yeah. So

Karen Wyatt 13:12
tell me about that. Some patients who’ve been at comatose, perhaps for several days, will suddenly wake up, they become totally lucid. They might even sit up in bed and start talking normally and, and whereas they were completely debilitated before and unable to sit up or swallow and could barely talk. They suddenly have this surge of energy through them and they can talk. Sometimes they have messages that I found I just remember really clearly happening with one man when I was in the room and he sat up, looked at me and looked at his family, and he said, Don’t say it if you don’t mean it. And that’s all he said. But that message was so powerful to me that it I actually took that with me wherever I went, and I

thought he’s saying you have to be authentic and have integrity about every single thing you say. And that’s a really powerful message he gave to us. So another patient I thought of, who had had all timers, and hadn’t been able to speak for one year, had not spoken. But her wife woke up one night and heard him heard him speaking in the other room, and went in. He was sitting up in bed, and appeared to be having a conversation with his brother who had died a few years earlier. And she said, it was like 10 years earlier, he was speaking completely normally and totally coherent. And I understood every word he said, and having a conversation and apparently his brother was there waiting for him, to accompany him. So let me ask you as a doctor, is there any medical explanation for something like that?

Well, I don’t think so. I mean, I don’t I don’t

Brian Smith 15:00
Think that we can explain that happening. A base. I mean, it hasn’t really been studied thoroughly. Because those those events are rare enough. And so we don’t know what’s happening metabolically for the patient. But I really believe that it’s something spiritual that science will have a hard time measuring and addressing and looking at so that’s what I see. It’s something that’s beyond the physical realm and that’s what makes it so hard for science to explain or even study. Yeah, cuz I think about like an Alzheimer’s patients and I’ve heard that someone who’s been nonverbal for a year or more, and we say it’s because their brain is, you know, deteriorating or has the plaque or whatever it is, it’s causing this and it’s, so it’s like that suddenly goes away right before they before they before they transpire. It’s like It’s like, like you said, almost like a boost of energy. I kind of view it as I look at the brain is kind of reducing valve that filters consciousness and it seems like that last burst. It’s like the consciousness of

Karen Wyatt 16:00
Just kind of breaks through or breaks free of the brain or something. Yeah, I have, I have had this image in my mind as people die that the physical body begins to dissolve away and fade away in some ways so that the spiritual body becomes more and more evident and more and more powerful in a sense and so that we can not we can see it more but also hear hear from it like it’s moving functions

to a greater and greater extent as the physical body begins to fade away. So after you did this hospice work, what what inspired you to write the book, seven lessons for living from the dying? It became clear to me over time that I almost had the feeling that I’m being I am being given certain patients and to follow and to go on this journey because they’re teaching me things I need to know that I need to learn from my own life. So it was as if I was in the

curriculum in a way in hospice learning from every patient. And over time, I saw how powerful those lessons were I was learning and how much they changed my life, including helping me deal with my grief and learn how to carry that grief with grace, but go on and still have a productive life. And so, I ultimately heard from several patients who told me, they were just now learning things at the very end of life, that they wish they had known their entire lives. And they said, but we are not able to share these things with other people. We won’t be here. And so a couple of patients said, would you would you tell people my story, would you share this with others, and that’s when I knew I needed to write this in a book. It took a long time for me to actually get it written, but I knew that someday, I needed to share these stories and talk about these lessons. So others

Seven lessons, we won’t have time to go through all of them. But if you had to pick one, which which one would you want to talk about? Well, I would say the lesson of forgiveness as one of the most powerful lessons for me personally, and also for my patients. It’s something I saw,

essentially every person working on at the end of life trying to figure out how do I forgive people that have harmed me in my life? And how do I feel forgiven by others or forgive myself? And most of them said they just did not want to carry with them any longer the burden of anger and resentment that they had been feeling. So I saw them working on how do you do it? How do you let go of something and how do you forgive someone, and it impressed upon me that that’s something I wanted to start working on now earlier, not waiting till my deathbed to work on and I really do believe that forgiveness is one thing that can it can change our physical health, but definitely

emotional and spiritual health as well. If we learn how how to practice, and it’s a lifelong practice that, that really we have to work on a little at a time every day. Yeah, it’s one of those things that I think we all know we should do. But some of us really struggle with it. You know, how how do I do this? Do you have any any insight into that?

Well, one of the things that I’ve learned is to, first of all set aside the idea that what has happened in my life shouldn’t happen. And that included my father’s death. That was one of the biggest things I had to forgive my father for taking his life. I had to forgive

God, I guess, for allowing this to happen or for putting me into a lifetime where I would experience it. And so getting over the belief that things shouldn’t happen the way they do is one of the first steps and just accepting that this is, this is what happened. And now I want to find a way

That I can be at peace with it. And for me in terms of when I need to forgive another person, I usually spend some time trying to put myself in that person’s shoes and understand what they might have been feeling or what was happening for them. To help me get that perspective, the moment I can, I can take a perspective that’s bigger than just my own point of view, suddenly, I can see that there are a lot of sides to every conflict and every issue that happens, and then that really helps me move forward and begin to find more room for for acceptance of the other person and even compassion and understanding of what that person has experienced. So I I do a journaling practice at times where I try to write the story of what happened as if I were the other person. What would they say about what happened and how would they describe it and that process is really

Brian Smith 21:00
really helpful? I think that’s a great process. I hadn’t heard that before. Yeah, I think he touched on the two key things. You know, I’ve heard it said that forgiveness is giving up all hope for a better past. So first of all, we have to accept what happened. But the idea of putting yourself in the other person’s shoes that doesn’t come naturally to most of us. But if that I like that idea of doing a dialogue or monologue or dialogue from that person’s perspective, because they’re always two sides, every story. Yeah, and it’s interesting writing it down is really helpful because sometimes in the process of writing, I think the subconscious Can, can come through and you might start writing down things that you never thought of yourself, you wouldn’t think of consciously that the other person might think or feel about the situation. Yeah, when did you know when you talked about I think suicide in particular, but also just the fact of someone transitioning, I very used rarely to use the word die but some of leaving us right there. So they transition out of

Karen Wyatt 22:00
This life, a lot of times we carry anger to that for that person. And again, especially in the case of suicide, because it’s like, How could you do this to me? And we don’t think about maybe what they were going through. Yeah, that was very true for me in the case of my dad’s suicide, and it took me a lot of years to even admit that I was angry at him because I, I felt bad about being angry, I was embarrassed that I was angry and ashamed. And so I hid that from myself, even for a number of years until I could look at that and and then allow myself to be angry at him. Like, it’s okay. Like, he left my life and I had two little babies and he didn’t see them grow up. And, you know, there was so much pain and so much loss and that it’s alright for me to have the anger. And once I acknowledge that it was such a relief, and that’s when I really could start moving forward toward actually actually healing it and beginning to recover. Yeah, you have to feel all those feelings.

And until you can acknowledge that you’re angry, like you said, then you can’t forgive him. Because first you have to acknowledge that you’re angry with him. Yeah. Yeah. And I don’t know why. I don’t know why I, I didn’t feel that I had a right to be angry. I guess I, I guess I understood in some ways that he was in terrible pain. And that’s why he made that choice. And it seemed wrong to be angry at someone who was hurting. But yeah, I was angry.

Brian Smith 23:30
Well, that’s that the rational mind would say, Okay, well, I’m not supposed to be angry. But we all have emotions for you. We’re human. And so I really liked that exercise you talked about, I think they I think it was a really too important case. I would hope everybody picked up on that because a lot of times, I’ve talked to so many people that struggle with forgiveness. I know I’m supposed to forgive, but I just can’t, I just can’t let this go and understand that we’re doing it for ourselves. I think it’s another important

Karen Wyatt 24:00
thing that to understand? Yeah, that it’s actually one of the most beneficial things we can do for our health and it’s amazing the weight that lifts off your shoulders, but also off your heart when you actually have forgiven someone, it really frees up your energy and to be more in the present moment because you’re not keeping alive. Old anger and resentments from the past. And so it’s it’s a really worthwhile practice but knowing that it takes years like for me and my dad years of work for that to actually happen, but I could see it getting better and better over time. It’s one of those things if you practice it becomes easier. And I’ve even heard people say you can learn to proactively forgive if you get if you get good enough at it, you can you can start letting go of things before they even happen. That’s exactly that’s exactly what I’m trying to do right now is I’ve decided I just don’t want to add anything in

layers to the for all the forgiveness I’m already working on and on a day to day basis when things, especially small things that happen, I just don’t want to be mad at the person who cut me off in traffic. I just don’t want to feel that. So I try right away to say, it’s not worth it to me to be angry about that. And to, to kidding, carry around that negativity. So I’m going to let it go. Yeah, I think that’s I think that’s fantastic. So the spiritual essence in your book, how would they apply to people? We’re going through a lot right now. I think everybody on the planet. So what’s something that someone could take from your book now that they could apply, you know, right now?

Well, one of the lessons is to learn how to surrender and just go with the flow of what’s happening. And I think I think a lot of us are struggling right now with all the changes that have taken place in our lives. I mean, day to day changes that we couldn’t even have imagined in the past. And we really do

have to learn that just as we were talking about with grief you you have to accept that this is what has happened. And so learning how to, to surrender to it and stop trying to change things to go back the way they were before, and let go of trying to control what’s happening, and be where we are, in this moment, the way things are, and find a place of curiosity. That’s probably what helps me the most is saying, this is really fascinating, like what’s happening right now. It’s never happened before in my life. This is something totally new. And I’m so interested and curious to see how it plays out. What will I learn from it? What will come next? And for me, that’s a better place to be curious than to be feeling frustrated over. The things I’ve had to give up or the things that that have changed that I didn’t want to change. Yeah, and I want to stay with that for a while because I think that’s so important because I’ve seen we’re all struggling

Brian Smith 27:00
With the loss of control, and I’ve seen people behaving in very, very bad ways, blowing up over little things, and I think it’s largely because of this loss of control. No, I haven’t had to do this before. Why do I have to do this now?

Karen Wyatt 27:14
Sadly, yeah. Yeah, I think that’s one of the things that we do when we when we’ve lost control in so many areas, we find whatever areas we can have some sort of control, even if it’s not rational, it doesn’t make sense, right? act out in, in those ways, simply simply just to give ourselves a feeling of still being empowered, I think, because it’s very uncomfortable to feel out of control. It’s frightening. But usually, I would say, you have to find a new locus of control and that the control that you do have is over your own behavior and your own attitudes, and even how you choose to cope with what’s happening. Can you do self care, practice?

practices, meditate in journal and do things to care for yourself better. You have control over that you have control over those choices that.

Brian Smith 28:10
Yeah, that’s, you know, I think we’ve been conditioned to take control of our lives, and to go out there and to make things happen. So a lot of us feel frustrated when we can’t do that. But you made another excellent point. Let’s take control over things we can take control over. So what can I can I start a meditation practice? Can I start to take better care of myself? Can I decide how I’m going to look at this? How am I going to react to this? And that’s those are all things that we can control? Yeah, yeah, definitely. And so I think that that’s, that’s something to focus on every day. And we get overwhelmed easily by all the things that that we don’t have control over. And it’s actually it’s sad and it’s really hard, but at the same time, we’re being invited into this new space.

Karen Wyatt 29:00
of

creativity and finding new ways of coping and new ways of caring for ourselves. Yeah. And you talked about it before, you know, curiosity, what’s what’s going to come next, which,

I guess if we can take a longer view of things a bigger view, if we if we keep these seven lessons in mind, we can start to maybe expand our horizons a little bit, as opposed to, this is what I can’t do today. You know, I just I really want to I want to go out to eat or I want to go to a movie and I just can’t do it. Yes, definitely. And I think the other the other lesson that I’m really focusing on right now is the lesson of love again, to even talk about love. It always sounds trite, I think because we hear it everywhere in our society. And we apply love to all kinds of situations like we love hamburgers, and we love cars. Yeah, but, but I really do think this is a time in our whole society where each one of us and

needs to think about, how can I be more loving today? How can I bring more love because our whole planet is hurting right now. And we need all the kindness and compassion that we can find. And so I feel like if I get, try to bring myself to that place of how can I, how can I soften my heart and just feel more love and compassion and not not get angry at people who don’t agree with me about things or see the world differently? How can I recognize everyone right now is hurting and everyone needs all the love I can possibly share. We’ll get back to grief to growth in just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian is an author and a life coach? If you’re grieving or know someone who is grieving his book, grief to growth is a best selling easy to read book that might help you or someone you know, people work with Brian as a life coach to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers.

Announcer 31:00
www grief to growth com www dot g ri e f the number two gr o w th calm or text growth gr o w th 231996. If you’d like to support this podcast visit www.patreon.com slash grief to growth www.ptreon.com slash g ri EF the number two gr o w th to make a financial contribution. And now back to grief to grow.

Brian Smith 31:38
Yeah, well, you know, it’s interesting because I’ve interviewed a lot of people who have had near death experiences and one of its universal everyone comes back. Like they have different lessons and there’s about there’s about 10 that are pretty, you know, pretty standard. But the number one lessons always love and it’s kind of like what you said, Well, it seems kind of trite to talk about love but that’s really what it’s all about.

out. And especially in a time right now, when people are just feeling so out of sorts, and disconnected and out of control, and are acting out. So I think it’s really important. Keep that lesson in mind that, you know, maybe it’s just smiling at someone you know, or, you know, stepping aside and letting them go first, you know, things of that just just give people a bit of extra grace. Yeah. And the nice thing about it is, it’s simple to remember I mean, we can boil everything down to just that one word on that one app, try to just remember love. So if you can’t think of anything else during the day, and everything else is falling apart, keep that as your default, default mode.

Find as much love as you can. So Karen, how can listeners be better prepared for for difficult times that are coming up in our lives? What what kind of things can we do to get ready for those things? Well, I feel like it’s really important to have a spiritual practice of some kind that we

Karen Wyatt 33:00
really do need to spend a little time every day, intentionally looking within and really trying to work on ourselves in a spiritual way. And so, so I something like yoga or meditation or journaling, just a practice that we give a little time, even 15 minutes a day to, so that we’re always tuning in with ourselves and looking within and working on growing to be the best people we can be. And then

I think again, cultivating the attitude that, you know, honestly in life, nothing lasts, everything changes, our whole planet has been set up that way, life wouldn’t go on if there weren’t changes. And if there weren’t death, death is part of the whole cycle of life. And so the more that we can get comfortable with that idea that everything here on the planet has been set up that way. Every living thing will die.

Brian Smith 34:00
Some point and and once we accept it and stop resisting that, I think that also helps us to view each moment that we have here as precious and to be able to make the most of our time. It’s none of us knows how much time we have, we really don’t know how long we’ll be here. Right? Well, you know, that’s another difficult thing for us. I think it’s, you know, it’s interesting, our culture, you know, they, they, it’s kind of taught us to hold on everything, you know, and grab everything and get it while you’re here. And, you know, hold on to your youth, but I’m getting to the age where I’ll be 60 next year. And you know, I see people trying to hold on to being 35 or being 40 and people are doing everything they possibly can to keep our bodies young and it’s you’re you’re fighting it’s father time. So there’s I think there’s there’s a general denial of the fact that everything in this earth passes through.

Karen Wyatt 34:58
Yes, definitely.

I think we’re kind of a youth focused culture. If you look at advertising, you know, it’s always like always showing us If only you were younger and more attractive and stronger and fitter like these people in advertising, but it’s just one of the great

illusions in a way of life here. And so for me, it’s been the most helpful to prepare myself knowing things will change. Like, I everything feels great for me right now in this moment, but things will change, because life is always changing, and there will be things I will have to deal with down the road. So I already acknowledged it, and I already feel like I’m being prepared for it in a way. So it’s not going to come as a complete shock to me I won’t feel blindsided if something does happen because as I’ve been working on myself and preparing myself and and I guess what I’m working toward is kind of balance and equanimity and being able to

find my way back to being at peace with no matter what is happening in my life. Yeah. But you know, the thing is, and the great thing about is what we’re talking about is we don’t have to give up everything by saying everything that everything changes and everything goes away because it doesn’t mean there’s an end. Right? There’s always something new and even death is a new beginning. Exactly. That’s right. So so the physical things around me in this moment may pass, but yes, not come to an end because the love the joy, the beauty all of that’s going to continue on and, and who we don’t even know we have no idea how much more there will be for us when we do Pass Pass on from this physical existence. So you’re right. I think that gives us a tremendous amount of hope, too.

Although I hurt for the people who don’t have that kind of awareness, because I realized that

life can could feel much more frightening if

Brian Smith 37:00
All you see is that is a hard stop your last breath. And that’s it and there’s nothing there, you’re headed for a brick wall. I think I feel sorry for those people I really do. And I hope this is why I do what I do. Because I want to give everybody the hope, whether it’s, you know, faith based or based on science or based on philosophy or based on whatever to understand what we really are as human beings. And you talked about that practice and I think it’s twofold. I think it’s one to steal against those things that are coming up to give us make us stronger so we can endure those things and, and grow through them. But also to everyday to remember that this is not all the rest. What I see around me is not all there is what I see is my body. This is this is not me. I think that’s a very important practice to say, you know, my look in the mirror, my body is getting older, but it’s just my body. It’s not, it’s not who I am. Oh, exactly, exactly. In my book I write I call it the taking the galaxy view, which I got from Edgar Mitchell.

Karen Wyatt 38:00
started the Institute of noetic Sciences, which was an astronaut. And he described looking down on Earth from being in a spaceship orbiting, and the tininess of the earth, compared to the vastness of the universe made him realize, you know, all the problems that I find in my physical life on Earth are just so tiny. And there’s something so much, so much greater going on here than that. And he said, it changed his perspective forever. And so, so I write about trying to take that the galaxy view from the higher view always of what we’re going through and realizing, on a physical level alone, this is hard, and it’s challenging, but there’s also something so much greater going on in the universe. And this is just a little blip in in that eternity and in all the time that’s there. The time in which I’m growing spiritually and my soul is developing. Yeah, well

Brian Smith 39:00
That’s what the the people in the in the ears tell us, right? They tell us that, you know, despite all that what looks to be chaotic, but looks to be terrible, it looks to be tragic. There’s actually an order, there’s actually a beauty to everything that you’re going through. So that’s the only place where I kind of ask people have faith is like, you know, have faith in that, that everything’s going to be okay. And it really can just, it doesn’t take the problems away, but it makes them seem not so overwhelming. And

Karen Wyatt 39:29
yeah, definitely. And one of the things I mean, I suggest to people, to not be afraid of being around death, if they have that opportunity, if they have a loved one, even if it’s a distant relative who’s dying, they’re able to go and be there and sit with that person or somehow participate, that being close to someone who’s in that space, that kind of liminal space between the two worlds. I think that’s

One of the best ways to actually open your own mind to the fact that there’s something bigger here. And I don’t really have to be so afraid of death. And so I do encourage people to not to shy away if someone they love is at the very end of life and they’re able to go there and be with that person. It could change everything for them. Yeah, that’s

Brian Smith 40:23
interesting. You say that cuz I had I started off with a really big fear of death and had it most of my life. And so when I think about being someone who’s dying, I’ve actually stayed away from like, when my grandmother passed away, I was in my early 20s. And, and I just could not be there when it happened.

Unknown Speaker 40:39
So that’s interesting to tell people to it, but we talked too early. We have to lean into things that scare us, I think, I think so. It’s a good thing to maybe try to work yourself up towards. Yeah, yeah, exactly. When my mother died, I took care of her in her home in the last days of her life, and my older brother was not able to

Karen Wyatt 41:00
to come and see her I, I really wanted him to come. I mean, he, he actually he poked his head in for a few minutes and left right away. He couldn’t be there. But interestingly, five years after that his daughter died of breast cancer. And he was with her the entire time. And so I felt like maybe experiencing

the fear over our mom’s death. And looking at that, that might have helped prepare him a little bit. So he couldn’t be there later on. So like you said, a little at a time and, you know, we

Brian Smith 41:37
we can get comfortable with it as we go. Yeah. So how do we help an elderly parent or somebody, how do we help them prepare for end of life, especially if it’s someone that doesn’t really like to think about that or talk about that?

Karen Wyatt 41:52
Yeah, one of the things one of the things that has worked really well for me with my mom and I and I recommend it to other people.

is to actually bring up the conversation by asking them what it was like for them when their parent died or or another loved one in their lives. And for my mom, she really wanted to tell me the stories of when her father died and when her mother died, because she had she been carrying those stories with her for a long time. And that was quite a comfortable way for me to just listen and let her tell me everything that happened and how she felt about it and how, what it was like, and from there, I was able to say to her, Well, what would you like to be different when it’s your time? And having her having already explored the story and her telling me her mother didn’t want CPR but she got CPR in the hospital and didn’t want to be in the hospital but died in the hospital and was unhappy about it. And let me say what how would you feel about that? What do you think? What do you what would you What would you want if it were you

You were in grandma’s shoes. And so it was an easy way to open up the topic in her having already told those stories brought her into the place where she could just put herself into my grandmother’s place and talk about, about that about what she would want if she were my grandmother. And so that got us started. And that really helped open things up to have additional conversations down the road. And that’s another thing like you were saying, like being with someone who’s dying, we have to take our time with it, and maybe talk a little bit around it initially, and then go back other times and ask other questions, to try to delve into it more deeply. But I found asking them to tell a story first, is something that really does open up their hearts and make them more willing to talk about it. Yeah, I think that’s a great way to make it a little bit less personal. So to let them talk about a third person

Brian Smith 44:00
You know, making their transition. Because again, I think a lot of us still have this, this.

This fear, I mean, death is an unknown for most of us. And if we don’t if we don’t study it, you know, like, like you have and like I have, it remains this big mystery and we fear what we don’t know. And so if we view death as a big black box, we don’t know what it is, then is we’re going to fear it. Yeah, exactly. And then that fear can really kind of take up a large part of our life energy in a way, you know, because we spend our lives either trying to deny it or are hiding our fear or running away from it. When once we face the fear and kind of move past it, we’re so much freer to just live life and and accept it however it is. Absolutely. I was interesting. I was talking with a friend the other day, who purports to be an atheist materialist, and thinks that you know, when you die, that’s it. You know, lights out, okay.

That’s fine. But then this person told me, but I’m scared of dying. And I said, you know, and she’s a very rational person. So well as a rational person, you realize, fearing non existence is not rational, because you won’t be around to know that God doesn’t exist. So you truly don’t believe you’re not going to exist. And I think that’s, it’s interesting. I was talking with Kelvin Chen, who wrote the book, overcoming the fear of death. And what the first belief system he talks about is just this belief that we’re not going to continue, but people fear it. And I think it’s a really interesting kind of paradox. I guess, that we’ve, I think we just even as human beings, we can’t imagine that we’re not going to continue even if we say we do. Yeah, that’s so true. Because if we’re we’re fearing not being here, but we’re fearing, knowing that we’re not here. You’re fearing, staring into the darkness and experiencing it after we die. But that isn’t consistent with with that belief system, actually. And so, yeah, you’re so right about that.

contradiction. Yeah, in how they’re looking at it. That’s why I think it’s really important. You know, the thing about death is it’s so uncomfortable for us. It’s just, it’s a taboo subject, you know.

But it’s the one thing that we all know that’s going to happen. You know, they say death and taxes are the two things are just starting. It’s really only death. As we know, as soon as we’re born, we have a destiny to transition, you know, as we talk to everything this world kind of passes through. So I really encourage people to face that because I spent many years decades of my life worried about it, fearing it. And when I finally turned and faced it and started studying it, the more I studied it, the more that fear just went away. Yeah, and I think we’re especially disadvantaged in kind of modern Western society, because death has been removed from our day to day existence. If you think about over 100 years ago, most people died at home. And so even children

Karen Wyatt 47:00
Grew up having had, you know, an elderly grandparent died at home and having experienced it and witnessed it. And we’re so removed from it. When, in the past, most people died in hospitals now more people are dying at home because we’ve consciously made a shift that direction. But also, funerals are always outside of the home and away from us. And so, so we can distance ourselves as much as we want. Seeing in our society makes it easy for us, but so much to our detriment, because as you said, it’s something all of us are going to experience. It’s inevitable and universal. And it’s very sad that we go through life not being prepared for the one thing that we can count on is going to happen. Yeah, I think goes back to that looking at it as the end and nobody wants to face the end. So if we can start to look beyond that horizon, I think that makes all the difference in the world. I also think

Think of it as the one thing that unites us with every other human on the planet too. And so when we’re getting lost in how different we are from other people, if we remember, we share this very fundamental characteristic, but we will all die and we all have some discomfort or fear or pain around death. And that would be a way that we could connect with anyone. Yeah, we could connect with any human simply by talking about our grief. You know, the pain of having someone we love die, that would bond us to anyone. Yeah, and I was that was actually the next question. I was going to ask you, what do you say to readers or to listeners who are struggling with grief and terminal illness and you just touch on one thing? No, grief is also a universal thing. If we’re, if we’re around long enough, we’re all going to go through grief. Yes, definitely. And I do think it’s helpful. Well, I remember when I was in the midst of this, like, terrible

darkness around my dad’s death. It was hard for me to believe that anyone else had ever experienced that I remember thinking I’m so different from everyone else. No one would ever understand me, which is strange to think that way. But that’s how I felt like I was in this completely isolated place all alone, and there was no one to talk to no one who would ever relate to it. Now, I look back at that and see, you know, there were people everywhere all around me, who could have I didn’t know how to get out of my dark space to connect with anyone else. And one of the things I would say, two we talked about already is is being willing to feel all the feelings that the grief is bringing to the pain and the anger,

to be able to feel all of it because I spent too many years trying not to feel any of the feelings and that’s why I got stuck in the darkness. I was trying too hard not to feel the feelings. The other thing that I finally recognized

To is that, in the early years after my dad died, I would wake up every single day. And think someday I’m going to wake up and I will feel exactly like I felt before dad died someday, it’ll go back to normal. And I will feel that way. And finally, when I recognized, wait a minute, and event this big in your life is meant to change you. It’s meant to change everything. You’re not going to go back where you were before you’re moving towards something else, you’re changing. And when I finally saw, it’s okay to let my self change. That’s actually when I did that is actually when I opened up to the idea of working in hospice because I realized I have to allow myself to let this change me into the next newest person I meant to be. And it actually was the best thing that I ever could have done because I found my true path and where I was meant to be. Yeah, that is that is really profound.

Brian Smith 51:00
And it’s something I go through with a lot of my clients because that that first really big grief event, you know that the one that really just hits you right in the core. A lot of people like you said, we were always looking for we’re always looking to go back to normal, what we’re going through right now, the changes we’re going through, why can’t we just get back to the way things were. And we have to understand that that’s not the way life is designed. We’re not just we’re not designed to go out and that’s a good thing we can we can become a better version of ourselves. So I try to tell people, it’s like, well, you’re not going to be the person that you were. But you can be a better version of the person that you are you can you can use this to motivate yourself. Exactly. It took me so many years to realize that part because I didn’t have a grief counselor like you. Tell me, you know, to help me see that I had to figure that out over a long time. But I realized as you said right now today, what we’re going through with the pandemic, that’s exactly where all of us are. Most people are starting are counting the days until life will go back to exactly where it was before.

Karen Wyatt 52:00
This all began. But But that isn’t really what it’s about, like an event this big that involves up the entire planet. It’s meant to change us all. And that’s what we have to look toward is, how is this changing me and shaping me? And how is this going to help me become, as you said a better version of myself? Yeah, that’s the that’s one of the keys. I think of the spiritual practice. We talked about it as looking forward to, to, to making ourselves into a better person and to really understanding that we’re here to expand and to grow. And and that’s a desire that clinging on to who I was when I was 25. You know, if you’re 75 you’re the same person you were when you were 25. I think you’ve missed the whole point of life. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, one of the things that I also think about just is I think of life as a classroom, and think of the fact that I came here for the purpose of learning as much as I can learn

A lot of the learning will probably come through discomfort, it will happen through things that are painful for me or that I initially don’t like very much. But that’s how I will learn and that when I accept it that way it makes it makes me that’s where the Curiosity comes from while I’m in this classroom. So what is this about? What is it what’s here for me to learn? And how will I grow from this? And that actually gives me a lot of reassurance because no matter what happens, I don’t stop and spend time thinking, this shouldn’t be this should not have happened. Yeah, don’t ever spin my wheels thinking that way. I stop and say, Whoa, I’m back in the classroom. What’s the lesson going to be? what’s the what’s the curriculum here? Yeah, you know, and what will I end up learning from this? And many times, I have no idea. I have no idea what what I will end up learning but it comes. Yeah, I think that you know, it’s interesting. That’s I think that’s a great metaphor, but actually take it literally

Brian Smith 54:00
I’m just like you. And I had an event that happened to me literally just yesterday. And it really, you know, set me back, my wife was laid off from her job. So we’ve gotten to this COVID thing, she works in the healthcare field, and we kept cutting her hours and cutting her hours and finally told yesterday, we’re not coming back. So I’m lying their bed last night, and I’m thinking, Oh, this is terrible. How is this going to work out? What are we gonna do for insurance also? And then, you know, it takes a little while. I mean, it’s like, the shift is immediate. But then I’m like, but what’s going to come next? You know, what’s gonna happen next? Maybe something better will come along. It’s always worked out before. And what am I supposed to learn from this? You know, and here I am advising people on how to do this thing, right? So what what am I going to do with it? So, you know, you make that shift, that shifted perspective, that we’re all human and we it doesn’t allow us to bypass the feelings, we still have the fear and we still have to live with, you know, all the limit limitations of being human. But we can quickly kind of shift to what’s the higher perspective Yeah.

Karen Wyatt 55:00
Exactly. And I think another important thing that I had to learn too is not to compare my journey with anyone else’s journey. And I see that a lot. With my daughter talking to her, she’ll always call and say, but this person had this workout and it was so much easier for her and why did it go that way for her? And I said, Well, she’s in a different classroom, she’s taking a different course right now.

I use that I use that with her to, to help her think like, we’re all here learning our own things. It’s something different for all of us. And so we just each have to pay attention and, and make the most of our own lessons that come to us. But they are not going to be the same as the person sitting next to us. They’re on a different track. They’re, they’re learning their own things. Yeah. And that’s and that that’s what goes back to what’s a good thing, what’s a bad thing because you know, if you’re, if you’re, if you’re here, you taking an advanced course, you’re gonna get you’re gonna get more difficult lessons. You’re gonna get

more out of it, you know, when you leave here, you’re going to have more more growth. But it’s going to be more uncomfortable because people only grow through this comfort. I hate to say that, but I just think is true. If everything were always exactly where we wanted it to be, none of us would ever change anything. It’s so true. And I look back at times in my life, you know, when things seemed relatively wonderful and amazing, and I can’t say that I grew very much, I think those were little times to rest up and recover. But I can’t say that those were times of a lot of growth, or change. And you’re right, it’s, it’s it is the challenges that help us grow. And that’s another thing we have to accept that, that this is how growth happens here on planet Earth at least. Exactly. Yeah. So how are you different after writing this book, but how have you changed since writing the book? Well, it It opened me up so much

To become a more spiritual person, the person that I was really meant to be, and to, to really stop wasting time getting mired down in

emotions and jealousy and things that just weren’t worth my time and anger and to start trying to live more authentically and be more vulnerable and more loving in my life. And then that helped me in everything that I did immensely. You know, we made a move at one point

where I gave up my hospice job moved to a new community that didn’t have a paid job in hospice. So I had to go back into family medicine. And I was devastated because I thought Wait, hospice was my path. Hospice was the thing I discovered, and it’s, I’m losing it now. But because of what I had learned spiritually, I just knew, Okay, interesting. A new classroom. There’s something new here. What’s what can I make of this and how

So it has helped me so much to find so much peace of mind no matter what the ups and downs are no matter what I’m going through in my life and then also to feel like I’m able to bring forth my gifts and what I have to offer and share them with other people. Yeah, absolutely. So Karen, I understand you’re speaking at the ions conference, it’s gonna be virtual this year is August 14, through the 16th. It’s going to be online. I want to give people the website to go to register. It’s virtual conference.ai ns.org that’s ay ay ay ay n ds. And you’re speaking on Sunday, I believe, Sunday, August 16. And the title of the talk is love over fear lessons from the dying so I’ll be talking about these lessons. And why especially right now we need to emphasize love and not get caught up in the fear of the circumstances that we’re in. And and part of that approach to is realizing, you know, isn’t it interesting, we we all came

to planet earth to be here right now in this lifetime for what we’re going through right now and to think of how amazing that is really, that we’re, we’re all here together going through this. And it’s, it’s kind of a privilege actually to be here right now and experience what’s happening on our planet. So

Brian Smith 59:21
can we choose love and not sinking to fear? Yeah, well, it’s a challenge. But as you said, it’s really interesting to see because I’m curious where we’re going to end up in a year or two. You know, what, what changes will we see because of what we’re going through. So I gave your website earlier your

Karen Wyatt 59:38
it was the Karen white MD calm, but also they have a website for your podcast. So tell me about your podcast. Yeah, I started a podcast, the whole the inner interviews I started doing seven years ago with basically people who work in any aspect of end of life care. And partly for me because I wanted to learn things and I wanted to share

What I was learning with other people, and then turned it into a podcast. It’s called end of life University. And I broadcast once a week every Monday, so people can find it on Apple, podcasts, Spotify, the all the usual places. Okay, and if they’re interested in listening, but they can also go to the website, e o l University COMM And the the podcast is posted there and I have blogs and some courses there as well. Yeah, I’m sure people will be interested in checking it out. You’ve got so much to say so much, so much wisdom, so much.

Brian Smith 1:00:37
This, it’s really fascinating to talk to you and to listen to you and hear you know what you’ve learned and the lessons that you put into the book, which I want to read again, it’s seven lessons for seven lessons for living from the dying by Dr. Karen Wyatt, MD. Karen, it’s been really great getting to know you and have you on grief to growth is anything you want to say before before we wrap up today.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:00
I think mainly for people to just remember what we were talking about that it’s, it’s really about love. If you can keep it simple in everyday just just think of that. Just remember to try to be more loving. I think we’ll get through this all together. That’s awesome. Thank you very much, Karen, you have a great day. Thanks, Brian. Well, I hope you enjoyed the episode, I want to make it really easy for you to reach me. So just send me a text 231996 and simply text the word growth gr o w th. In fact you can right now just say hey Siri, send the message. 231996 and when Siri asked you what you want to send, just say growth. You can do the same thing with Okay, Google. Thanks a lot. Have a wonderful day. Thanks for listening to grief to growth. Brian hopes that you find this episode helpful, and we’ll come back for future episodes. Brian’s best selling book grief to growth planted not buried is a question

Announcer 1:02:00
resource for anyone who is coping with grief or know someone who is. If you enjoy the podcast and would like to support it, there are three things you can do to help. The first is to share the podcast with someone that you think it will help. The second is to go to iTunes rate and review the episode. The third way you can support the podcast is by becoming a patron. Head over to www.patreon.com slash grief to growth. That’s pa t ar e o n.com. Slash grief, the number to growth and sign up to make a small monthly donation. patrons get access to exclusive bonus content and knowledge that you are helping to spread the message of grief to grow. For more about Brian and grief to growth, visit www grief to growth calm

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Chris Kito, B.S. experienced an NDE at the age of 24 due to an allergic reaction to a food allergy.

In April of 2012, 22-year-old Chris Kito went into anaphylactic shock due to a peanut allergy, leading to his near-death experience. He was young and just starting a career.  Chris feels that a transformation took place, changing what had been his previous youthful outlook on life and mindset as he was entering a new career.

The NDE created challenges and opportunities which Chris credits to his newfound spirituality and extraordinarily successful career at such a young age.

In this interview, we talk about Chris’ experience and the blessings and challenges that come from an NDE. Integration of an NDE experience into one’s daily life can take years, even decades.

 

 

Transcript

Announcer 0:00
Hi there. Welcome to grief to growth podcast. Your host is Brian Smith, spiritual seeker, best selling author, grief survivor and life coach. Ryan believes that the worst tragedies of life provide the greatest opportunity for growth. Brian says he was planted, not buried, and he is here to help you grow where you’ve been planted by the difficulties in life. In each episode, Brian and his guests will share what has helped them to survive and thrive. It is his sincere hope this episode helps you today.

Brian Smith 0:34
Hey, everybody, this is Brian Smith back with another episode of grief to growth and today I’ve got with me and near death experiencer His name is Chris Quito. I’m going to read Chris’s bio, which is very short and then we’re just gonna have a conversation about his experience and what he’s learned since then. Chris has a BS degrees experience and an NDA the age of 2422 Chris, I got two different numbers 24 you’re 24 at the age of 24 is due to an allergic reaction. food allergy. And Chris is going to talk about the changes that he found necessary in order to integrate his and D. So it does indeed happen in April 2012. He wouldn’t anaphylaxis shock due to a peanut allergy that led to his near death experience. Chris was young at the time and just starting your career. And he feels that a transformation took place after the changing would have been his previous youthful outlook on life and mindset as Chris was entering a new career. So that indeed created challenges and opportunities with Chris credits to his newfound spirituality and his extraordinarily life’s journey of feeling and purpose. So Chris, welcome to great degrowth it’s good to have you here.

Chris Kito 1:37
Well, thank you for having me, Brian. I’m excited to be here. I’ve heard a lot of great things and glad we could connect on this Monday morning.

Brian Smith 1:44
Yeah, appreciate you doing this. I know you’re still in some pain, you had an injury and you’re soldiering through so I appreciate you sitting down and doing this with me.

Chris Kito 1:50
Yeah. Well, you know, you hit the age of 32. And you sleep long on your shoulder and you’re out of commission for two weeks. So you know,

Brian Smith 1:58
given never for 20 years

Chris Kito 2:02
I want you to be able to get out of bed as Millennials are a little fragile.

Brian Smith 2:06
Yeah, that’s the thing about living these bodies, man, they’re fragile. Exactly. So tell me about your start wherever you’d like to start with your story if you want to give us some background if you want to start with the night that you had the NDA whatever, wherever you’d like to jump over?

Chris Kito 2:18
Absolutely. Well, it’s a it’s been about eight years and a little background I this is the experience what happened I did not speak about it or really discuss my near death experience or any of the after effects or any of that story for about, oh, I would say almost six and a half, seven years it never came out. But you know now after you know really processing it and having about an eight year journey with it, I’m more and more comfortable almost it seems monthly and every year actually discussing what happened fully and for myself. Also just understanding the integration And then what exactly happened for because for a very long time, I had no idea what really went on. And it was a kind of trial by error and just every day and understanding and over the years really putting the pieces back together. So I grew up in Long Island, New York, I went to school in Connecticut, and I studied business. And many of my friends and all my family stayed in the northeast. And it never really resonated with me to be working in Manhattan and doing that, that grind of commuting. And I ended up deciding the summer after I graduated to move to Los Angeles originally wanted to have some sort of business career within entertainment, maybe along the lines of like an agent or something on the business side. That was my degree in my interest at the time. So I moved to LA went out there with that. And within six months, I was you know, on interviews, I was meeting people I wasn’t getting involved in a lot of local organizations and groups and a friend of mine, within about six months of me moving out there was out there October. So by April had a birthday party at a hotel and you know, very clearly in a key, you know, detail and so many, you know, the devils I always say devil or gods in the details of any story and her birthday party was on a Sunday night, which is kind of an odd night to have a birthday party. You know, right before our work day. Yeah. Which would prove to be very important for Little did I know at that moment or any other time and in my story in the arc of what eventually happens. So when did the birthday party was having a great time it was a Sunday night. Loki was at the lobby of a restaurant and they served cake and all of that and just to backpedal a little bit. I was born with a peanut allergy. I’ve been allergic to peanuts and nuts, all tree nuts and lagoons for my whole life never had any severe reactions or any need to ever take an injection of epinephrine which would be the common epi pen, I would just avoid them. You know, I was cautious. I was definitely very, very careless in the sense of epi pens having to be replaced every 14 to 16 months and I just wouldn’t replace them and maybe two years I checked the expiration label and I didn’t care and you know, I’d have some Benadryl with me or it was always in the medicine cabinet. But I avoided it if people knew me knew I had a peanut or nut allergy wasn’t something that was really discussed, I would just avoid it. And I wasn’t, I would say to now I wasn’t that respectful of the allergy because I never had anything severe and I was very fortunate. I was able to avoid it very simply. And it was not something that came into my world. But I did have that be pens with me.

But they weren’t always that some points they were more than half the time either expired or maybe not in the full capacity of how they should be working with that. So then fast forward years later, I kind of developed more of a CAD cavalier attitude towards it, not that it wasn’t super Cavalier, but again, I was going around with it times expired epinephrine, which would have been a life saving medicine for me. So we’re at the birthday party, everyone’s around, they start cutting up cake. And I get a piece of cake. And I just take like a little bit of it. I mean, it was like a half the size of fork. I put it in my mouth. And instantly I could tell there was peanuts or something in it. And my first thought was, oh, she’s What is this and I ended up swallowing. Because I didn’t know it was peanuts. I really don’t know what peanuts tastes like. If that sounds odd. But I’ve never actually ate them. I know what the smell is. I kind of configure Okay, this is the smell. This is what it is, but I really didn’t know. And then I thought to myself who would ever have a peanut butter cake? Is this cake really have peanuts in it? That was so odd to me. I’ve never come across a peanut cake or a peanut butter cake. And it happened instantly within the fraction of a second. Because you’re thinking you’re talking you’re in a group of people and you boom in you just take a walk and I didn’t want to spit anything. I didn’t think anything I thought oh my god, maybe this was just a trace of it and I’m not going to have a reaction and I’ll be okay. And then I immediately just thought oh my god, like what happened? It happened so quick. It was just I it was just an unconscious you’re just eating you weren’t expecting it because it was a chocolate cake. Yeah, it looked chocolate. It was the frosting. It was that and the next thing I know I swallowed something with peanut I thought okay, all right. There I thought okay, let me let me just get something to kind of wash it down my mouth, a little itchy. So I get like a little spread I washed down like all right I’m fine let me just you know go home later tonight it’s around 11 o’clock on a Sunday right now and I’ll just take two three Benadryl asleep this off and we’ll get on with Monday morning no big deal. So I go home I do just that and then you know, it’s like a half hour later and I’m laying in bed and you know, I’m like, like, Alright, how is the reaction going down and yet these moments I can kind of be like I’m like self checking my breathing and my feelings and like I still don’t feel well now My stomach hurts now like, I’m still kind of rad. I’m getting warm as the blankets wrong with the air conditioner and on on what’s going on and then you start to race in your head. Alright, is this going to get better is this not going to get better? And in that that’s when things start to change over from Alright, maybe I may not just sleep this off with three Done a drill, and this could be something more. So, here I am laying here like midnight 12 3011 like right around that time in bed and I’m like, Alright, it’s getting a little harder to breathe. I can tell it’s kind of getting like a timeouts, kind of like that like a little heavier. Not that I couldn’t get the air in, but it was heavier sets that are learning maybe take another Benadryl and just go look at myself in the mirror and see if my eyes are bloodshot. So then I wake up, I get out of bed, I wasn’t really sleeping, and I go into the bathroom, I flip the light on, and I’m red. My face is red. My body’s red. My arms are red, my armpits, my chest, my neck. Everything is red. I’m starting to break out hives. hives are head to toe right now. I go Okay, this isn’t good. Then I remember thinking I like to start breathing in front of the mirror and see what happens. I’m like, maybe you’re just going to settle down. Take another Benadryl. So I think I took another Benadryl So I’ve had like four little pink tablets that don’t seem to really be doing anything at this moment. Then I thought all right, well, let’s take a step ahead here. And I gotta see what I’m going to do here because this may not stop and I’ve never had a reaction before that I can remember where I knew what was going to happen I was kind of making up like alright, is this stop? Does this go does it get worse? My breathing and stuff? I don’t know. I’ve never gone into anaphylaxis. I’ve fortunately never had an experience like that. So it was Uncharted. I didn’t know what decisions to make and or I didn’t know timelines for what was really happening. Like I didn’t know now like, you know, there’s there’s phases of the reflective reaction that I didn’t know I was just like, Alright, I’m covered in hives and I’m uncomfortable. You know what now I now know within a very short period time things then escalate very quickly.

So I’m seeing your breathing I sorry, let me look for my epi pen. Let me see what I can do. Maybe I’ll just inject myself with this. And I go grab the epi pen and shocking it was expired by about six months. So a side note on that, epi pens and epinephrine may or may not ever work, there’s no guaranteed and if it was a brand new epi pen, there’s no guarantee at the level work. And a lot of times it has to be administered before you’re in a full blown anaphylaxis to stop it. And that’s why they always give you packs of two because one many times does not work. So there’s no guarantee with that. And that was kind of running through my head and I thought, well, this expired and then I thought all right, I may have to call an ambulance. I said, Well, the ambulance gonna get here in time. Is the ambulance going to have epinephrine? I mean, I don’t know what they do or don’t carry. How are they going to take to get here? It’s Los Angeles, you know, yeah, Sunday night, but I don’t know it’s la they might just not pay attention or What do I do in this situation? That’s I’m starting to run through scenarios in my head. While my breathing is becoming more and more labor labeled. It’s more and more labored. And I’m thinking, alright, I can take the epinephrine but then once you take the epinephrine, you can’t really move. That’s one thing I knew, like he can’t do so he can’t take and then just go about your normal actions, because of the adrenaline going through you and just can’t really function. So I thought, well, if I do this, I can’t go anywhere. I don’t know if it’s gonna work. And I thought, well, I can call an ambulance or I thought I could just drive to the hospital because it’s Sunday night and there’s no one on the road and I can just zip there if I want. And I’ll go and I’ll, maybe I’ll just take the fnf epi pen with me I’ll get as far as I can. And then I can just, you know, white knuckle it so I get to the hospital. So I’m like, Alright, I need to do something here and something needs to happen. And my thought was All right, I’m gonna just drive myself to the hospital I that was it. I don’t think I wanted to call an ambulance. I thought that wouldn’t make sense because for some reason I thought they wouldn’t be able to help me. So I got in the car, I grabbed the epi pen, and I put it on the passenger seat and I just started zipping down the road in Los Angeles and living in West LA at the time and I went to Cedar Sinai Hospital, and I’m driving and it’s Sunday night, thank god late there’s no one on the road. And I just remember thinking how much time I have and I’m watching the GPS and I’m breathing I like just focus on breathing and like

it’s harder and harder to breathe and less and less oxygen is getting into me. And I’m thinking Alright, I don’t know how much time I have and read everything hurts. I’m now running on like a treadmill and I’m like this is getting close to the wire. I had the epi pen I Had it out of the cartridges. I’m like, I’m gonna get as far as I can if I have to, I’m going to inject it. And then I’m just going to, you know, hope I can get to the hospital. So I end up getting to the hospital like Paul in and they take my car and a lot of this is very fuzzy muster because I just got out and then I kind of stumbled into the emergency room. And I walk up to the nurse at the desk and she looks at me and just kind of like stares at me, and I go, I’m having an allergic reaction. I need help and I pulled out my and she goes, I need your ID and I pulled out my wallet. And it was in my pocket to give her my ID and said here’s Here it is. And I couldn’t physically with my arms, get my my ID out of the little slot. I was so off and I then started to like kind of fall into the table. And then really at that moment, all I remember is that her and another nurse come in Running, grabbing me and they carried me back and like kind of held me up to the back room and put me on a bed. And at that point, I was really out of it. I had, you know, and this is when I’m in the hospital and I had about seven doctors, nurses, physician’s assistants working around me and they pulled my shirt off and I was covered head to toe in just red welts and hives, and my breathing was minimal, and they’re, you know, holding my mouth open and they’re talking to me, and they’re trying to see what happened and they’re sticking needles in my arm and, you know, they’re putting Benadryl shots in my wrist. They’re putting me on oxygen to get me to breathe air. They’re rating my oxygen levels, which were at that point, which a lot of this I found out later, was about 10% was my oxygen consumption. So I wasn’t taking in any oxygen at that time. And I was really Kind of just fading I at that point. I remember just kind of thinking like, with everyone working around me I’m like, why are they rushing around so much like what’s going on and they’re all moving and they’re so panicked and they’re like moving me in this and they’re that and they’re they’re looking at me and they’re frantic I’ve never seen you know, it really was just like the TV shows you’d see on er with everyone frantically moving and then to like D laying there and just kind of watching this show unfold around you. And you know, I didn’t I didn’t feel anything at this time and then I started to, you know, pass away and I went into this extreme and a lot of the Spirit you spoken and in the end Spencer’s experiences, the there’s no language, we have to really describe a lot of experience. So it’s very hard. So I mean, do my best I can describe the sensations, feelings, and really what was going on consciously around me. And I remember I went into this euphoric state of being that I can’t even I couldn’t attain any, any, any way in this in this dimension, this physical space and it was just this beautiful euphoric feeling of laying there. And I remember consciously like these waves of thoughts and ideas coming to me that I was like, Oh, yeah, I remember very clearly like moments of this. of Oh, I’m dying. That’s it. And I was like, I’m dying like that is it? This is death. I’ve been here like this is it I am dying. I am leaving this physical space this body, like on it. That’s it. I knew I was done. Like I’m not breathing. The app, the epinephrine which they were injecting into my shoulder into my neck was not working. And they were panicking. And then I remember them doing that. And I remember the doctor, like holding my eyes open and my mouth and saying, Chris, we’re going to be you know, have you ever had a tube down your throat, we’re going to put a tube down your throat. And I so clearly, so much of this was a haze. But then there were so many moments that were so vivid, it’s like it happened five minutes ago. I remember the doctor looking at me and him up in him saying, he goes, I’m so sorry, I can’t save your life. And I didn’t have any response to that. And just, just see just said it to me. And I think I just looked at him and I didn’t say anything. And then he’s like, he said, I’m just sorry, I can’t save your life. And it’s not that they weren’t able to stop or get me to breathe or stop the anaphylaxis and with anaphylaxis if it’s too far, that’s it. It’s too far. I’m just nothing was working. The oxygen was wasn’t getting pulled in. They couldn’t, you know, they’re going to try and put a tube down my throat. The epinephrine the Benadryl it wasn’t stopping anything. Yeah. And when that happened I remember I, I’ve always grew up in a, you know, very spiritual and you know, both my grandfather’s more so now I know are two of my main spirit guides and I remember them I remember them being there and saying, All right, take it easy. And you know, I was laying there and I had the lights and the commotion and again, it was the most euphoric feeling there was zero pain zero physical sensation. Like nothing

Brian Smith 19:44
they just ask you were you still you’re still in your body at this point right so you’re in your body and your but you feeling this euphoria? Is that correct?

Chris Kito 19:51
Oh, yeah, I was still I would say I was in my body. I wasn’t out of my body looking into it, huh? I feel anything. It was this euphoric feeling that’s undescribable. Okay, waiting there. And I like in the scene around me too. If you ever saw the movie Saving Private wine when they’re landing on the beach, and there’s the explosion and chaos going around, but there’s no noise in the cat context is just looking around. That’s what it was like, I was just there, and I didn’t feel anything. I didn’t sense anything. In this physical world. I was somewhere else. Hmm. And I was just in this euphoric being realizing and understanding that I was dying, and with spirit, and I just thought to myself, I was like, you know, none of these material things really matter. Like, cares about an iPhone. It’s funny, I took an iPhone and just kind of like, had these thoughts wash over and I was like, you know, none of these anger matters. I guess it’s just love and He says and that’s all nothing else matters at the end here I am, you know, now I look at and say, you know you’re dying alone and suffocating to death on a hospital bed. Those material things don’t really have no meaning and nor do any any negative or hurtful emotions. That life gets very, very clear when you’re suffocating to death.

Unknown Speaker 21:24
So

Chris Kito 21:26
I then had I then had those passing feelings run through me of those messages and then I was with my grandfathers. And I remember them very clearly saying, you you can’t die like it’s not and I remember thinking myself, Oh, that’s it. I’m dead. I’m dying. I’m dead. I’m dying. And then very clearly being like, No, you can’t die. It’s not time. You have work to do. That’s it, you know, you have work to do can’t die. And I thought, okay, in myself. All right. And then I remember kind of there was no fighting at up until that point it was just kind of a passing through and then when they said you can’t die, you have work to do you need to fix relationships you need, you have to do you have to do things and there was no there was no more it’s just fixed relationship you have work to do is very clear, very direct. And there was no misunderstanding, there was no it was just there and it was a wash through me conscious message. And then I thought, Okay, and then I remember thinking, I don’t want to die, I can’t die and I remember starting to then fight in any way I could fight to start breathing again. And I remember just coming back, and it was like that in that movie Saving Private Ryan on the beach when they cut the music and then it comes back and the bombs explosions and chaos. And that’s what I came back to. I came back to like that. I was like, Oh, and I started breathing. And they’re like, Oh, he’s moving. And I immediately just came back in and felt pain and everything and I was back, and I was gasping and I started talking. I said, I need, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe, I need to breathe. And they’re like, you’re breathing, you’re breathing, everything’s coming in. And I came back and my body was responding. And I was under this immense and intense pain, grasping and scraping and fighting for oxygen. And that’s what I, I went back into, I knew I was back when I felt everything, okay, and I had so much epinephrine running through me and they were holding my legs down because I was shaking so much. And I was breathing and kind of clawing and they were holding me and I started to breathe. And then you know, time later I started to come down more physically and I was breathing and that that I was back and I started to stabilize. And then I was I found out later I was there for about six and a half hours, but I only felt I was there for about 15 minutes. And that was the physical situation with the near death experience. And when I left, the woman goes, I go how I said, She goes, Oh my god, she goes, you’re unrecognizable from when you walked in. And then the main nurses she said, You know, when you walked in, you were, you know, out of a one to 10 you are a nine and a half. We didn’t think you were going to survive. And now you’re like, you know, you can leave and they’re like, well, you can leave they’re like, we can’t do anything. You’re breathing. The reaction stopped. You’re okay. You just walk out of here slowly. They gave me like the little socks with like the rubber on the bottom. Yeah. And they’re like, you’re unrecognizable. Like I you want to go home and I sleep in your own bed. I go up. Okay. So I, I just had I mean, I had no idea what was going on. I mean, I like none of this. I didn’t think This all this story had, you know, I didn’t really realize it at the moment, I’m still just coming down from the experience, right? It was being pieced together days and weeks later, and I said, Alright, I’ll leave. So I kind of got my stuff I walked out with like a little bag and a doctor’s note and my my blue socks with the rubber bottoms. And I went and, you know, I always say it’s a joke. I said, I really knew I was back when I then laughed, and I had to pay like $18 for parking. It’s la right. So I said, Well, welcome back to it. Welcome back to the world. So I paid for parking. Yeah, and then I drove home at like, you know, 5am in the morning and I just slept and I mean for the next few days I was in unbelievable pain my body was was cramping aching hurting to breathe. I remember laying there breathing was so hard cuz everything just heard my body was jacked up of every possible chemical. You can imagine. That was just a minute. And then the then within a few days once all the medicine wore off, I then started to think like oh my god, what actually happened do I then have then the mental and emotional aspect once the immense pain and physical shock wore off? I was like, Oh my gosh, what what happened? So

Brian Smith 26:21
crystal, let me ask you about your your experience, because I know I know it’s hard to put into words and I have interviewed you several years and there’s like, it’s it’s kind of hard to describe, but did you physically see your grandfather’s did? Did you ever go to another place? What was that? Like?

Chris Kito 26:36
I don’t, I didn’t physically see them. I don’t physically see them in the sense. I get images of what I know. They would look like Mm hmm. I don’t think I went to another place physically. Well, that’s all I don’t have the language to describe it. I knew I wasn’t on this physical realm. Yeah. And I can’t say I was somewhere where there were, you know, rainbows and rain. But I was not here that was and that was a conscious state of being I was gone.

Brian Smith 27:06
So it was a it was a feeling or knowing that you were someone actually

Chris Kito 27:09
it was a conscious knowing that I was not here that I was dead. I was in the process of dying. And I was surrounded by spirit. And I got my messages and I got kicked out.

Brian Smith 27:23
Yeah. So your messages were? Yeah, you had work to do, right? It’s out the message was

Chris Kito 27:28
okay. And

yeah, and I got kicked back. So, you know, a few days later, once all the pain and physical, you know, reactions stopped my eye then I you know, fortunately I’ve always kept a journal since I was like 13 1414 years old. And I was journaling. And I remember I’ve gone back years later, and I looked at some of my journals within a few days or weeks or after the NDA, and I clearly I’ve had a change in consciousness, like I am literally a different person, I’m a different makeup mentally, physically, emotionally, consciously. And in the weeks and days and months and years after, you know, I always say in my opinion, and I can be totally right or wrong. The NDP is like 1% of what actually happens. The 99% the NDP is the mechanism what what really comes out is well what’s the integration? What’s the change? What’s the after effect on yourself, your community from from that incident, I mean, the end D was really intense for you know, getting the most timelines later, was about 15 minutes and an eight hour ordeal in total. And now we’re sitting here eight hours, eight years later, and we spent eight hours on the incident and eight years on the integration, the understanding Development yeah and you know moving through that process it takes it takes 1015 years or a lifetime to fully integrate and understand a near death experience and and go from there so it’s a very small spots just like that initial it happened and then it’s, you know, it’s it’s not over you’ve got a lifetime to go. Yeah. And there there’s its own set of challenges with with having a near death experience and integrating and really a process of healing and understanding and so many so many levels to it.

Announcer 29:37
We’ll get back to grief to growth in just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian is an author and a life coach? If you’re grieving or know someone who is grieving his book, grief to growth is a best selling easy to read book that might help you or someone you know, people work with Brian as a life coach to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers. At www grief to growth calm www dot g ri e f the number two gr o w th calm or text growth gr o w th 231996. If you’d like to support this podcast visit www.patreon.com slash grief to growth www.pateon.com slash g ri f the number two gr o w th to make a financial contribution. And now back to grief to growth.

Chris Kito 30:37
And I’m sorry, I was

Brian Smith 30:39
Yeah, let’s talk about that because you bring up a really important point and for I have spoke with a lot of nd ears and studied Indies. I’ve interviewed pmh Atwater and one of the things a lot of people don’t realize is a lot of people say I love to have it in the You’re so lucky. You got to have that but there’s a lot of challenges that come along with it. And so what were your thoughts before you You had your MD and explained to me how you felt coming out of that experience.

Chris Kito 31:06
Yeah, I you know, it’s um, I don’t I think I don’t think anyone wants a near death experience. I think they just want to find a path to spiritual spirituality or enlightenment or an understanding or find peace or healing. I don’t think anyone wants to purposely die or

Brian Smith 31:24
Yeah, I think we might we wanna but we don’t really want

Chris Kito 31:27
Yeah, you know, it’s like everyone wants to be in great shape, you know and look great naked but no one wants to do the work in the gym. That’s it. I don’t get MD and other ways to reach enlightenment and peace and healing and, and all of that. But you don’t want to, I don’t wish an NDP on any human being in the world. Because it doesn’t always work out. Well. I am so fortunate. I’m alive. By all accounts. I should be dead more severely brain dead. Yeah. So it’s an absolute miracle. I walked out of their absolute like, in that sense.

Brian Smith 32:03
I’m sorry, but what would you What was the question? I was saying so you come back from this and I guess it explained to me what the challenges are. Okay. I’ve talked to some people that have explained something, but explain to our audience what are the challenges?

Chris Kito 32:16
So I remember coming back and you know, I’m 24 at the time and you know, you’re entering adulthood and you’re building your life. And you know, fortunately I can look back now over eight years and look at journals, you know, you nothing changes more than your past and what your relationship is with emotion and understanding say, Well, I thought this or I thought that I had that feeling. And then you can actually look back and say, oh, wow, on May 15 and 2012, two weeks after this is really what I thought and felt I wrote it, so I can go back and see exactly what I was feeling and going back, you know, but there were there are so many challenges everything from I remember, you know, start from the top down for the first six months. But really, for the first few months, I had no idea what happened. I didn’t know the term nd I didn’t know any of this, I just had this full blown experience. And pieces were coming back over days, weeks and months, over this time. For the first six months, I remember writing and every day I would wake up and I would have to think to myself, and I would feel I had no idea who I was, um, in the sense and that’s a very hard thing to to put into words, I would wake up and I would not know my emotional response to situations I would not know how I thought because of what I would have done or how I would have felt was not was different from after that. nd and I didn’t realize what was happening. I just woke up and I was thought, oh my god, I don’t know what I’m thinking. I don’t know my own emotions. I remember walking and smelling roses one day and just breaking down crying and having no explanation for that I you know, I didn’t I didn’t have a sense of smell. I always had a very bad sense of smell. Now. I think came back from my end and I can smell flowers. I remember my vision reset a little bit I remember being able see clear, I remember, you know, the physical attributes where I stopped eating meat for six months, I couldn’t be in the sun, I had to wear a hat and sunglasses every day and I was away from big life. I didn’t have any loud music. So I had these physical changes. Now, I was like, Oh, no, I can’t do that. Or I was going to go do something. I was like, No, I’m not going to do that. I’m not going to eat that. And, you know, really four or five a week days ago or a week ago, I was different I function differently in the world. Now my functioning is totally different. In my thought process and my emotions and every day I woke up and I remember thinking and writing, I have no idea what’s going on. Okay, no, Lou, and it’s the weirdest feeling now looking back on it cuz now it’s been, you know, more integration eight years later, worked within and figured a lot of this out, and I knew what was going on. At that point. I never heard the term near death experience. Didn’t know what anything was I just woke up and was like, I have no idea what’s going on. In any aspect physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, I was just this last puppy just kind of like along for this weird ride with no language or no direction. I didn’t know any of this was so I couldn’t even grounded and say, Okay, this is happening. It was just I have no idea what’s going on.

And that continued for six months pretty strong. And then somehow and I don’t know, this was just by the Grace, Grace of the universe. I was online googling, like after effects. I’m like, I’m trying I have to figure out what happened. There’s got to be something I said this, someone else have had has had to have something like this happen. And I started looking around, I came across ions. And it had a list of, you know, after effects of an MD like 35 and I had like 33 out of the 35. All right, well, that’s a pretty good indicator. So I called them I said, Hey, I live in Los Angeles and I took your little tasks. And I had 33 out of the 35 Is there anyone you can connect me to, to speak to I need to talk to someone? And they said, yeah, we have this woman up in Santa Barbara, give her a call. Here’s her number. So I called this this woman. And we spoke and she goes, Oh, honey, within two months, she goes, Oh, honey, you had a near death experience. I go What? And she goes, Yeah, and she’s like, Listen, I haven’t proved me once you come up next week, we’ll talk and that that’s really what started the process of understanding what happened and, and and the heavy work in every aspect of my life of integration and, you know, in accepting and evolving into who I who I became instantly, and it was an instant flash with the end but that’s a journey is decades and a lifetime of fully integrating and understanding and developing that consciousness of where you grew into. And that that’s how I found I ns and groups or community and I, I started to then piece together everything that happened and I said, Well this happened. Oh, well that yeah, that’s that and this and then they said, Well, what else is kind of trickling out is like things were getting worked out over days, weeks, months, even years. And you know, even at the seven year mark of my NDA, which was last summer, it was like the other shoe drop of me changing my life and everything and, you know, looking at the crossing, okay, this is a 15 year process. So this is a 30 year lifetime process and understanding that because there’s always something that kind of comes up more. You know, I never spoke about this for six and a half years. I never talked about my near death experience. I mean, people that knew me, I just said, Yeah, you know, Chris had a peanut reaction and that was that was it, you know, it was more to it. If I ever did speak about it, I probably only spoke about 75% of the story, and it was very filtered and edited down out. Now, now I speak pretty freely about it. I don’t I don’t I disclose everything. There’s 100% disclosure with my story. But yeah, a year ago that was you’re getting the, you know, the 75% version.

Brian Smith 38:14
Yeah, I think that’s, that seems to be a common thing that people have the, you know, there is this process of reintegrating back into the world feeling maybe out of place out of sorts. You know, what? The sensitivity so I’m glad you took the time to explain that to people that may not really understand all that’s involved with it’s not just that, that 15 minutes or whatever that you were on the other side, it’s coming back and just being like, a fish out of water, I guess.

Chris Kito 38:42
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I still feel like a fish out of water eight years later. So I think I think any MD he or anyone that’s had a severe experience or a spiritually transformed experience has the, you know, forever Forever your changed and the key Whereas integrating the experience will never leave you and it always is constantly evolving and you know we have to live in this world and function and do the best we can for ourselves and family and community but but your it there’s always going to be a rift in like the paper of life because you have had that experience and there’s many ways to look at it and a lot of and I’ve I’ve taken the path of okay I understand that you know, I’m gonna think operate and function very differently than some people there’s going to be people that agree with me they don’t agree with me and I don’t impose anything on anyone I could be right I could be totally wrong. It’s that’s none of my there’s no judgment. It’s none of my business what other people think it and you kind of find your tribe of people that that are in that same MD world. That’s why it’s such a beautiful niche niche community. Yeah, we all kind of have this understanding of anyone that’s gone through something or grief or, or a big transformative experience that

it changes your life forever. Yeah, yeah.

You’re in a interaction with a baseball bat, um, really, you know, just moments of, not of just having to really, to be it’s hard to put words to it, but to be uation where you just don’t know how to respond or you don’t understand and and knowing that, okay, you know, a year ago or six months ago, this is how I would have handled it or done it. Now you’re like, I don’t know, like you’re learning to rethink you’re learning to reuse your brain. You’re learning to reuse your your mind or emotions and your understanding of what’s going on and all of that shifts. It’s like everything you’ve been locked thought everything you believe thought learned was just thrown out the window. He know we’re going to start this over a different and you’re like, Okay, all right. I can’t even go back to that. No, no, no, it’s gone. Like you just don’t think like that anymore. And like, you can’t, it’s hard to explain because you have to kind of be in that position to understand how to, like really just turn over your life and it wasn’t like a process of Oh, we’re going to spend 20 years of meditating and then you’re slowly going to gradually it’s like No, just like that. And D everything’s turned over and gear it out. Because it’s so severe and so intense so quickly. It just blows your it’s like a hurricane ripping a roof off roof off a house. That’s what it’s really like and then you got to kind of put the shingles back on one by one but the roof looks completely different. rebuilt so I’m rebuilding my house in my everything. And that process still goes on Eight years later, I still deal with that. And, and then you also have the little other things you know, I remember you know, I’ve always you know, from that You know, the the, you know, something so simple as the candy that’s on the checkout aisle. When you go at a grocery store, one peanut m&m will kill me in a half hour. You know, I can’t touch food on an airplane I have to be super careful. There were moments where I remember after my en d A year later, I remember just sitting there and I cooked pasta and I was like, there’s peanuts in this pasta. And I took the pasta, I threw it all out. I wouldn’t touch it. And I’m like, well, there’s like any peanuts and spaghetti I don’t know why I just thought there was and so there was moments I had that word challenging to really trust food and even now I don’t I only eat anyone that knows me knows I only eat at a few restaurants there select restaurants I won’t go near them. I won’t touch anything new I I don’t eat anything that I don’t prepare myself. I go to a bar Keystone has cookies. This cake. I don’t touch it like it’s just You know anyone that knows me know that even bother asking they know the deal. So I had to adjust my life physically from my allergies significantly all my epi pens are up to date I can’t even have it show on my wall we we don’t need to make the same mistake twice and so there was that there was a lot of little things that came up so there was a bit of a reintegration and understanding with food something that people eat and snack and is healthy can kill me and I’m surrounded by that all the time. And you know I someone close to me once said you know they had a very severe allergy to tomatoes. And they would whenever they went to the grocery store they put it tomato in their basket to just to kind of understand it and like to develop less of a fear and an understanding it so when I go to groceries, sometimes I’ll put hmm Peanuts, walnuts or something that safely contained in my basket. Just a habit with me and say I said Listen, I remember talking to peanut butter. Listen, I will respect you, if you respect me, and this is how we’re going to be I come in peace. And I walk around Whole Foods with nuts in my basket. And that really helped a lot. And I said, I’m not going to have this adversarial relationship with food that I is going to kill me all the time. And that was a big issue. I mean, I, I don’t you know, I’ve never met anyone that reads labels as much as I do. And as many times as I do, I’ll read it five times, and scan it and look to make sure you know, no nuts, no nuts, no nuts. No, you got to check is it you know, facility that had that. So there are so many effects that come out of it. And

it’s been quite the process. It’s been a blessing. The journey has been an absolute blessing. I’ve met amazing people and I, you know, now I find it very healing for myself to be speaking about this. And that’s really been very transformative because for six years, I wouldn’t talk about it. It just didn’t come up. It was like No, we just don’t talk about it. I was really I didn’t feel it. And then all the sudden I said, You know what, I had this opportunity to speak last May. And then I said, you know, I’m just gonna do it, I don’t even care anymore. And I did it and then everything started changing. It started lightening up. And it’s been an unbelievably healing a moment for me and I still don’t necessarily enjoy talking about it. But I made the decision with myself and I said, You know what, I’m so fortunate to be here. And there are so many people that aren’t that passed away from food allergies, and I walked out of there when I should have been dead, or I should have been permanently brain damaged. I was oxygen starved. And there was a woman a few months after my incident that had that happen, and she is in a vegetative state and I always had that like up there. So I read those articles. I see him girl dies on an airplane kid bites a Snickers bar on a playground. He’s dead. 20 minutes later, that that was me, but for the grace of the universe, I’m here now and healthy. And I said, You know what? My service back for that is going to be to speak about my experience and my integration and healing and the path I’m walking now. And if I can bring healing, peace, comfort or understanding to just one person, anytime I do an interview, I speak I talk to anybody. It’s worth it to me. And I’m going to put my own self aside and do it. Because I don’t I don’t need to talk about this. I don’t have a burning desire, but I forced myself to say, you know what, anyone that calls or texts or asks or I put myself out there, I’m going to do it. And I’ve found that to be very rewarding. And that’s my, that’s my repayment for being back alive. Is is helping

Brian Smith 47:01
Do you think your indie was planned or wasn’t an accident?

Chris Kito 47:05
Question? I thought about that. But you know, it’s like, is there Free Will or pre determination? I don’t know. Um, I? I don’t know. I don’t think it really matters at this point. I mean, I put it in my mouth. I’m here now. Yeah, I think life is a combination of both. And I don’t know how my life would be different or it could have I mean, it could have gone anyway. I don’t know that answer. I’m sure it would be probably

Brian Smith 47:33
the message you got the message you got from your grandparents who was your grandpa’s It wasn’t your time. I mean, so it sounds like you I mean, cuz Some people say they were given a choice i’ve i’ve heard most people say they weren’t

Chris Kito 47:45
really a choice. And once I heard that I remember fighting to go back. And that that was I fought I fought like, and that’s it. That’s usually when you’re fighting to breathe. That’s a variable primal like there’s nothing more primal and natural in this universe when you’re fighting to breathe for oxygen so and someone’s like I mean when you really want something like that you know and you’ve been to that level of you know I’m fighting to read that is there’s there’s nothing beyond that I was on that edge and went over it a bit so I yeah I found my healing and my integration has significantly been accelerated and I’ve come to more peace with this being open and speaking about it and I find it very rewarding to speak to others about it and you know, every time I talk about my story, it’s it’s never a canned story. It just kind of comes out and flows out and everyone I’ve ever spoken to groups or you know, I will do an interview and then a very easy to find on the internet with my email and cell phone so I get random probably like since since Probably the last five months I get at least one or two people randomly calling texting or emailing me that saying, Hey, I saw an interview or your video and I just googled you and I got your cell number. So I get random calls and it’s from all over the world and it is really beautiful experience for someone saying, Hey, you know, I lost you know, child I lost you know, a spouse I had this happen I there’s no one I can talk to, but I saw your video and you said something that resonated with me. And I was like, and I you know, and I just say sure I’m here to listen and that that was it. That was my repayment plan for given an opportunity to to live and be healthy and come back. Really, Yeah, fine. And in many ways, 1000 times better than I was. I that that’s that’s how I looked at it. It’s like alright, that’s my, that’s my job. I have to do this now. I’ve had six and a half years to not talk about it. Now. I’m going to talk about it and and be absurd. Service yeah to others. And that’s that’s my that’s my give back now. And

Brian Smith 50:08
so let me ask you what’s your connection Now you mentioned earlier that your grandmother, your grandfather, your primary spirit guides, what’s your connection to the other side Now do you have mediumistic abilities Do you know I am father but

Chris Kito 50:21
I’ve always been fairly intuitive my whole life you know, I can always say now now I’m very, very intuitive. I have very good mediumship ability very good psychic ability. I am. I don’t, I don’t read really through other people. I do it sometimes for my family, I do it a lot for myself. Um, and I use it as my guiding way to make decisions in life or business or anything like along like that, but I can use mediumship I use psychic ability I I can pick up energy exceptionally well with someone like meeting them and just kind of knowing and, and it’s been interesting. So I’ve done that. Some work with it more over the last few years with actually working with coaches and trainers that are mediums and psychics and really developing it one on one and it’s been really great. It’s a tool. It’s It’s It’s interesting, I don’t I don’t really talk about it outside of the indie world no one really knows I have that that ability or that sense, because sometimes, you know, you have to know your audience with this. And it’s a very heavy topic and ease and spirituality and consciousness and death and dying. And then you bring in mediumship spirits, angels, you know, listen, there’s a community that loves that and you can let it go. And there’s other people that not so much and I’m very respectful of everyone. And I go from there, but I do and, you know, it’s interesting, my all my grandparents have been deceased, but I don’t feel that there are moments where I’ll think like, oh, someone’s so still alive and it’s a cold night. They passed away eight, nine years ago and it’s really odd. Because physically they’re not here but like being able to kind of tap into it and feel it or I can see signs or little things here or there or like it’s still energetically around. So there’s the blessing of having that or even in business or life where I can meet someone and I can kind of know what they’re thinking or I could see I always say you know, I you know, I can kind of see through most people instantly of what it is what’s going on what’s really happening and all of that it’s great you know, the downside is I have to be very very cautious and aware of energy my surroundings I mean salt that’s grounding I mean I have crystals and bracelets on right now and beads to go through this interview and grounding myself so it’s been a challenge and being you know hypersensitive, and that takes a long time to develop you know, personal boundaries and grounding and energy and, and all of this it’s a really a double edged sword when you’re new to it, and eventually, anyone that does any of that energy work or spirits I mean, if they understand how best But they can navigate because it can be very challenging to walk in or be like, I gotta get out of here. You know, you pick up on something and you know, there are countless times I’ve said to someone I said, I’ll call him I’ll be like, I got to get away from this person. That’s not good. There’s nothing there’s no, no, no. And then, you know, six months later, I’m proving 100%, right? It’s just a challenge to because you’re hypersensitive to everything around you from how well you sleep to. Okay, I slept weird on my shoulder and my shoulder then explodes for a week, where, you know, I’m just hypersensitive with everything or food, obviously, for me is a major point, food, weather climate. You know, the interesting moment a storm comes in, I feel that in my body, so it’s great when you can harness that properly, but it takes there’s a little bit of a bumpy road, integrating those skill sets and the sensitivity. Yeah,

Brian Smith 53:53
well, I could I could understand what you’re saying. I mean, this this world, you I’ve taught people like it’s like yourself, to have this sensitivity to different energies and stuff that we might not as normal people kind of filter out. But for you, I guess it’s a kind of learn to protect yourself. I want to ask you, I mean, you’re obviously you’re embracing life, you’re happy to be back, have your second chance and all that. What’s your relationship with death flight? Now, you’re still a young man, you probably have a long time to go before you see your grandfather’s again. But what are your thoughts on death? Isn’t your

Chris Kito 54:27
question I have no fear of death. I think it’s as natural as being born. I think it’s the most euphoric and peaceful experience for anyone that is facing that at the moment. It’s not something to be feared. It’s a natural progression. It’s inevitable. And, yeah, I want to add this to that question. I’ve I’ve spoken to people and I’ve met other people that want to die and they want to and even other nd years I’d say no, I really don’t want to be back. I’m just waiting to go. And I don’t judge anybody but what I feel is life is so precious and there’s so much beauty in this world if you want to find it and see it and there is chaos, but there’s also beauty. It’s a balance everything in the universe, just you can choose what you want to see him focus on. And I, I there, I feel just living with gratitude and understanding the beauty and the preciousness of life because you can’t go back. It’s final, in the sense that like, a it’s over, this life’s over, it’s over there may be another one, but this one’s over. And there’s gonna be people that miss you and there’s gonna be moments and there’s so much you don’t know or things that can happen, or that we can do as individuals that can make life so rewarding and rewarding for others. So I look at life as I would my message. If I had to sum that up to someone that asked, I would say you learn to live life every day with gratitude and look at it as a blessing because you There’s so much opportunity out there and there’s so much beauty and we tend to overlook that. And as humans, we look at the bad we look at the negative, we look at the moment and not the whole arc. I mean, if I was in there in that moment, I was laying there the day after my end, and this is awful. This is painful. I just want to die. Because I can’t figure out how my mind’s working or anything I would have missed out on the rest of my life, which is another 70 years 80 years. So I feel we get too caught up in the moment and we don’t look at the big picture and say, yeah, there might there’s gonna be some rainy days it happens there but there’s gonna be some bad moments. bad moments bad this bad relationships, bad, whatever. But you know what, if we look at everything, you got to go through this storm, guess what, it’s gonna be beautiful and amazing. And it’s there if you want it. And I fall on the side of you know, you got to live life and it’s a prayer it’s a gift. And when you’re not looking at as a gift that shows you’re not in gratitude in my opinion, and you’re not embracing You’re not evolving and you’re not serving or helping or sharing. And that’s really what I find so beautiful. And yeah.

Brian Smith 57:11
Yeah, I think that’s really, really well put. It’s what we choose to focus on. As you said, life is life is good, there’s good and bad and every bad thing. There’s some good that comes out of it. So we have to look at the entire arc and, and I see another thing you said it was really excellent. You know, we, if you believe in reincarnation, that’s great, but you’re never gonna have this life again. This This life is unique, and it’s not very long. Yeah. So Chris, I understand you’re speaking at the ions conference is going to be a virtual ions conference, let our listeners know it’s going to be online August 14 through 16th. And I answered the International Association for near death studies and people want to know about it. That’s a virtual conference that I ns.org so virtual conference dot i ND s.org. And you’re going to be speaking in

Chris Kito 57:58
battle. This is my second time. Speaking This is my third time now this will be my fourth time attending, which is an amazing conference. It’s been life changing for me to to meet other experiencers and people and researchers. It’s my favorite four days out of the year. And I’m so disappointed. We’re not in person this year. But I’ll take the virtual conference, amazing experience amazing people. Second time speaking, fourth time visiting, we are going to be discussing integrating near death experiences after having experience. As you know, like we said earlier, the experience is like 2% of the pie. The other 98 is okay, integrating it evolving, understanding, sharing, growing and living your life in the best possible way of taking that and really, you know, you have an ND in a circle back, it’s what you do after what are you going to do with it? Are you going to make yourself better? Are you going to meet with community and people are you going to share and grow you’re going to be a better human being You know, what are you going to do? And I think that’s a big question that you want to ask yourself. I found for me that, you know, having that purpose or understanding and least sang, again, I is not something I is, it’s not easy for me to talk about a year and a half ago, this would have never happened even a year ago, it still would have been, maybe is, is, you know, saying, alright, I’m going to do this, and I’m going to share and I’m going to put myself out there and, you know, evolving along. And so a lot of the panel we’re going to be discussing is bat and some advice and our personal stories and experiences and how to continue that journey because you know, I’ll be saying something different a year, two years, five years from now, it’s always evolving. And being aware that it’s never it’s never going to remain the same. It’s always going to change and being open to that and I think, you know, people say they want an N d there are other ways to find that alignment or under And I think really what people want is a way to find healing and peace and substance in their lives and to go through something that’s difficult whether it be Greece, Greece, gratitude, grief, or change or transformation. That’s it. No One No one, no one wants the pain. They just want the after effect, and someone can discuss it and say, Hey, listen, I went through it, you don’t have to suffocate to death. Let me save you that and this is what I’ve realized. And this is what I felt and you know, take it leave it take what you like, don’t like or what may resonate or might seem authentic to you, and work with that. And if that could bring healing peace transformation or harmony, take it and run because I think that’s what everyone wants. Ultimately, in the end. It’s just someone needs to find something they think the end ease the quick shot. It’s not it’s it’s painful, violent, intense, and then you still got to do decades of work afterwards. And anyone that says they don’t i mean i for my own experience, it’s going to continue forever.

Brian Smith 1:01:02
Yeah, I think what you just said was was wonderful. I think it’s excellent I and I applaud you for what you’re doing, because I think it’s very, very important. I attend our local ions meetings here in Cincinnati and and I’ve gotten to meet a lot of people that have had Andy’s a safe. From the outside, it seems like it’s your fourth thing, you know, you get to go across the other side, you get to see loved ones and stuff. But people don’t realize all the work that’s involved, you know, when you come back from it, and I’ve seen people in that community struggle to integrate it. And for people like you that have been through it and gone through your six years. It’s like I work. I work with grief. I work with people who mostly have children transition. So they can look at me and say, Well, I can get to where, you know, Brian is hopeful I could be example for them. You’re an example for someone who just had an NDA that might be going, which has happened to me, you know, I can’t deal with this world anymore. So I applaud you for what you’re doing. Chris, it’s been really great getting to know you, I appreciate you, you By being yourself and putting it out there and doing the work that you’re doing in the world, I look forward to that.

Chris Kito 1:02:06
We’ll do another zoom in a couple of weeks. Maybe next year we’ll meet on earth to do this year, so

Brian Smith 1:02:14
that’d be nice. All right, it’s good. Thank you, Ryan. day.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:17
Take care. Bye.

Brian Smith 1:02:21
While I hope you enjoyed the episode, I want to make it really easy for you to reach me. So just send me a text 231996 and simply text the word growth gr o w th. In fact you can right now just say hey Siri, send the message. 231996 and when Siri asked you what you want to send, just say growth. You can do the same thing with Ok, Google. Thanks a lot. Have a wonderful day.

Announcer 1:02:48
Thanks for listening to grief to growth. Brian hopes that you find this episode helpful. And we’ll come back for future episodes. Brian’s best selling book grief to growth planted not buried. is a great resource for anyone who is coping with grief or know someone who is. If you enjoy the podcast and would like to support it, there are three things you can do to help. The first is to share the podcast with someone that you think it will help. The second is to go to iTunes rate and review the episode. The third way you can support the podcast is by becoming a patron. Head over to www patreon.com slash grief to growth. That’s pa t ar e o n.com. Slash grief, the number to growth and sign up to make a small monthly donation. patrons get access to exclusive bonus content and knowledge that you are helping to spread the message of grief to grow. For more about Brian and grief to growth, visit www grief to growth.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Lisa Jones had a Shared Death Experience when her husband passed due to cancer. Lisa’s intuitive and mediumship abilities were opened up by the experience. She eventually moved to Hawaii, became a medium, started a podcast, and is now leading a group called The Real Onez.

Author, speaker, and host of the Exploring Death podcast, she has had the privilege to work with groups and individuals, business leaders, entertainers, and fellow spiritual seekers. Lisa brings refreshing clarity and honesty to a challenging subject. She seeks to use her gifts to give encouragement, comfort, and inspiration to a culture that has hidden death and dying from view. You’ll be uplifted by her energy and touched by her warmth.

http://www.therealonez.com

 

 

Transcript

 

Announcer 0:00
Hi there. Welcome to grief to growth podcast. Your host is Brian Smith, spiritual seeker, best selling author, grief survivor and life coach. Ryan believes that the worst tragedies of life provide the greatest opportunity for growth. Ryan says he was planted, not buried, and he is here to help you grow where you’ve been planted by the difficulties in life. In each episode, Brian and his guests will share what has helped them to survive and thrive. It is his sincere hope this episode helps you today.

Brian Smith 0:36
Everybody This is Brian Smith back with another episode of grief to growth and today with I’ve got with me, my guest is Lisa Jones and I have listened to Lisa on her podcast experiencing death and just met Lisa last week and we’re connected here so we’re going to do an interview so I’m gonna go ahead and introduce Lisa and then we’ll just have a conversation. After her Lisa had a transformative shared death experience. she expresses her passion for life by exploring

Death. She’s an author, a speaker, and she’s the host of the exploring death podcast, which just kind of moved on from that now to the real ones, and we’ll talk about the real ones. Lacey has had the privilege to work with groups and individuals, business leaders, entertainers and federal spiritual seekers. She brings refreshing clarity and honesty to a challenging subject. So 60 years are gifts to give encouragement, comfort and inspiration to a culture that has hidden death and dying from view. And I’m really excited to welcome Lisa to grifter growth. So thanks for being here,

Lisa Jones 1:29
Lisa. Thanks, Brian, for having me. I’m really excited to have a conversation with you today. Yeah, me too. I gotta tell you I listen to exploring death for quite a while and never heard the story behind millionaire medium. I’ve always wondered where did that come from? So let’s start with that. What is millionaire medium? Okay, well, interestingly, it’s part of my story. And so I don’t know if you want me to just tell my shared death experience as well or? Yeah, yeah, well, first, tell us what a shared death experience is. Cuz I think a lot of people we’ve all had near death experiences, but I don’t know what to share.

Brian Smith 2:00
death experience, right? So

Lisa Jones 2:01
a shared death experience, which I didn’t even know until I didn’t know when I found out the term of this because I didn’t even know what this was that happened. But basically, it’s when you accompany someone who’s passing away to the other side and either have an out of body experience or some sort of transformational spiritual experience with that, and so, my husband had been sick for seven years with cancer. And on the night that he died, I actually left my body I was in another room asleep. He was in our master bedroom, and all I know is that I left my body and I entered into what, for lack of a better word, as I call heaven. And it was just the most amazing experience of reality. It was more real than anything that I’ve experienced on this earth and it was just absolute beauty and love unconditional love. There were souls and beings just all around, they were all scurrying about gathering together in this kind of a, I guess it would be called a courtyard for lack of a better word. And, and there was an announcement, the grand mystery and sharp is about to arrive. And then there were trumpets and banners and there was just this excitement and Ian sharp was my husband. And he, like I said, was laying in the master bedroom with his brother and best friend. It was the first time I’d had anybody with me to to, I had been taking care of them by myself. And they did come at those that final day. And so anyway, I was with two angels, and they were just showing me you know, where he was going to be welcomed and all sudden this giant door started to open and everybody turned and looked at that exact moment. And he started to walk in all I saw was like, maybe a foot coming through and everybody just started cheering and oh my god, he’s here. He’s here. And right at that moment, I didn’t see his face or anything, but it was Like a trap door just open and I fell back into my body. It was almost like I mean it was like a physical like that falling experience in a dream and then you know, I woke up with my brother in law, knock knock knock on my door. And that’s, that’s what opened the trap door. And I just was like, Oh my god, oh my god, like I saw where he was going. And it was really shocking to me because I was raised very religiously and he hadn’t been baptized. So I thought he was going to hell, I had no idea that you know, you could go to heaven and not be baptized. So yeah, it completely shifted my entire thinking about religion and and all of that. So the millionaire medium name came from. I went in to see him and you know, of course I could tell that it was just his shell and he was no longer there. And so that morning, the kids were had slept, not in our home at night they were with grandma. So I was getting Ready to go and tell them and as I was getting ready, I just was like, Oh my god, what am I going to say? And there was Ian’s voice right in my left ear clears a bell. And he’s like, Oh my god, Lisa, I love you. But it is so beautiful here. And I was like, Oh, no, he said, it was so awesome here. That was the word awesome. And I was like, oh my god. So that was the beginning of my mediumship is he opened that door for me. And from then on, you know, I was able to talk to angels, and I mean, just all of this, this spiritual door open for me. I was I was a certified public accountant. So I was like, what is happening and very religious, not spiritual. Like I didn’t understand about angels or anything like that. So and then the other thing I found out the following day as well is that I knew he had had some life insurance, but because he was an executive for the company he worked for they had life insurance policy on a million anything was a multi million dollar life insurance policy. So I didn’t realize I didn’t know that. So all of a sudden there I am a millionaire and a medium The day after my husband died, and and my guides told me to use that name. When I started doing my work.

Brian Smith 6:12
Well, that’s wild. So I’ve heard of, there’s a project called the sharecropping project, we heard about that. Mm hmm. where people can kind of prepare to hopefully try to have an experience like this. But you had done nothing to prepare for. This is just gonna happen. Spontaneous, spontaneous. A

Lisa Jones 6:29
total, yeah, total spontaneous. And actually, I’ve been interviewed by the shared crossings project, and they’ve got three or four of my stories in there. In fact, most recently, ROM das, who lived here on Maui and I was friends with here, passed away. And he did a spiritual drive by the day that he passed, which completely caught me off guard. And, yeah, I had taken a nap. It was weird. It was a Sunday and I don’t normally nap but all of a sudden, I was like, wow, I just need to lay down for a little bit. And then as soon as I woke up, I do just felt his energy come by It was almost like, you know, like a drive by a car or something energy right into me and I was like, Whoa, ROM das, what is happening and I had no idea but that’s the exact time that he had passed away. So it was it’s amazing. I keep having these experiences. I had one with my mom and my dad as well when they pass so

Brian Smith 7:24
Oh, Rowan. Okay. You’re just you’re just open to?

Lisa Jones 7:29
I know, I think yeah, I think it’s a good question because I know, yeah, people can kind of prepare themselves. The one thing I did read the book, final gifts, which is a hospice written is written by hospice nurses. And that really, it was the first time that I had the understanding that when people are passing that there’s kind of a thinning of the veil and that, you know, they might actually be seeing spirit from the other side. So I think at least I was attuned to that idea. But again, it just spontaneously happened.

Brian Smith 8:03
So how did this How did you square this with your religious background? When when you see heaven and your husband who you presumed wasn’t going to heaven? How did that affect you?

Lisa Jones 8:13
Yeah, well, I ended up walking away from my religion. I was raised Lutheran and and then I had, I had, I don’t know if it’s converted, but I became an Episcopalian which again, they aren’t hardcore, you know, they’re not like, super. Right. But, um, but yeah, it was, it was interesting. I just really, I just made everything that I felt like I was taught, just not the truth anymore, because I had this direct experience. And so yeah, I had to walk away, which was hard because that was my community. And so I’ve had to really find my own way and actually moving to Maui three years ago. I feel like I’ve found my spiritual homes. People here are much more open and embracing of the idea of You know, Spirit on the other side and everything. So, um, yeah, it’s a whole different experience here.

Brian Smith 9:05
So where were you living at the time when you’re when your husband pass?

Lisa Jones 9:08
We were in Connecticut? Okay. Yeah, you

Brian Smith 9:11
know, that’s, that’s uh, when people transition, it shakes up our lives just normally if we didn’t have an experience like that, and a lot of times we it creates conflict in our current community, especially if there’s a deep, deeply religious community. So were you able to share this experience right after now because a lot of people they hold on to these things inside for a very long time.

Lisa Jones 9:33
Right Well, it’s interesting because I did talk about it and but again, it What I didn’t realize the impact or that it was even something I hadn’t ever read anything about near death experiences. Really? No, I mean, it was probably five years after his death that i i think if somebody recommended the book, I don’t know if it was proof of heaven by Eben Alexander or there was also a one That a little boy had written. I forget the title of that one. But I think it was actually that book that I was reading it and I almost fell off my chair because so much of what he talked about was what I experienced. Yeah. And I’m like, Whoa, like this is, again, in my book when I wrote, it’s like, maybe a paragraph and a half because I didn’t realize the gravity of it really. It just was like, yeah, this thing happened. And it totally changed everything for me. But um, you know, I didn’t know that people were interested in it. Yeah,

Brian Smith 10:33
yeah. So you. So at this point, you became a medium?

Lisa Jones 10:37
Yeah. So what happened was, yeah, so I had stepped up, I’d written my book. And then I went back to, to the accounting world. I was actually working for a hedge fund. And you know what it was Brian, it was when I turned 44. My husband died when I was 37. He was 44. And as I was approaching my 44th birthday, I suddenly had an aha moment. have like, Oh my god, I’m going to live longer than my husband. And the one thing that he told me about a week before he died was that he regretted his career choice. He said, Wow, I really wish I had helped more people. While I was while I was on this planet. He said, All I did was move numbers around on pieces of paper. He was a tax attorney. And, and so that just hit me like a ton of bricks as I was approaching my 44th. And I’m like, I don’t want to sit here and move numbers around on pieces of paper. And meanwhile, I was I mean, my friends knew that I talked to angels and things and so they would email me and I would send them you know, messages. And so as soon as I quit, my guides are saying, you got to quit the hedge fund, you gotta quit the hedge fund. And I was very resistant because I was getting paid such great money and you know, it just was hard to step away. But as soon as I did, like, all these doors open, I was asked if I wanted to have my own stage show. I was asked to do a radio show just outside New York. I was the Monday morning medium. Oh, and yeah, And then I even went into talks to have a television show. But that’s that’s when my mom passed away and that just took me out. I was really grief stricken when when she went.

Brian Smith 12:10
Yeah. Now, are you able to connect with your mother?

Lisa Jones 12:13
Yes, yeah. Okay. I talked to her all time. But you know, there’s something you know. And I think that was part of it. There was almost some shame on my part. Like, here I am. I’m able to connect to people to the other side. And yet I was so devastated when my mom passed that I felt like how can I help other people when I can’t even help myself? And it was me, maybe you can speak to this about the grief, you know, because it was so different. Like when my husband died. It was just a different experience than when my mom died. And I think it was she was, she’s had my back. I was adopted as a baby. So I felt like she was my savior almost, you know, and when she left I just, she was my rock when my husband was sick, you know? So again, it just was really, it just devastated me.

Brian Smith 12:58
Yeah, whatever group experience is different. And it goes because every relationship is unique. So we can’t really say, you know, whether it’s a spouse or a parent or a child, it just depends on that relationship that you have. Yeah. And I think it’s really interesting that when people can connect with the other side that you still have to go through the grief process. So they Some people say, Well, I wish I was immediate, that I could just sit and talk to them every day. And then I wouldn’t I wouldn’t be having all the grief that I have. But you don’t know what none of us gets to get out of here without going through that.

Lisa Jones 13:29
That’s exactly and I think that was that was what I was putting on myself. I’m like, but I can talk to her. So why am I so grief stricken? Why can’t I move forward? You know, and that’s exactly it. I don’t think I gave myself the grace of like, wow, you know, this was really, really hard and, and just be able to, you know, grieve the, you know, go through the process of really experiencing that. So, you know, and I’ve worked on it. I mean, I couldn’t even talk about it before. I mean, it was just like, Ah, yeah, it’s been six years now. And, and like I said, I’m in communication with her all the time. She’s always saying hello and connecting and showing me she’s around.

Brian Smith 14:08
But it’s great. I’ve done a medium. So I don’t have that that thing. But I tell people I talked to my daughter who passed away in 2015. I talked to her all the time. I mean, every day, literally, I talked to her more than I talked to my daughter that’s still no physically here, but it’s not the same as having her here, right? Physically because we’re still physical beings. And we still like that face to face, we still want to hike and we still want to be able to eat pizza with them and all those types of things that we did together. So there’s still something missing even though we might still have that spiritual connection.

Lisa Jones 14:39
I think that’s exactly right. And and I think that was even though we were in physically different places, we talked on the phone, you know, at least daily and just to be able to have that, that even though it wasn’t really physical, but it what you know, it’s that vocal physical, yeah, somebody’s voice and understanding and really getting their perspective and all of that, you know, So,

Brian Smith 15:00
yeah, so um, so you moved on from the millionaire medium and you did this show exploring death, which is where I got to know you. You didn’t know me, but I was one of your listeners. So tell us about exploring death and what that was about.

Lisa Jones 15:13
Yeah, it was so interesting because when I moved to Maui, I knew I wanted to do a podcast and and I thought with a millionaire medium, I really wanted to bridge the gap between corporate and and consciousness or spirituality, because in my work, I mean, I used to have CEOs walk up to me because they’d heard my story. And they’d be like, gosh, my dad died. And he comes to me in a dream and I don’t know what to do, or, you know, I saw a vision of him and and so I feel like there’s all of this spiritual stuff happening in the corporate world that nobody really wants to acknowledge or talk about, but I guess because I was a CPA and people knew me as that corporate person. They felt comfortable, you know, talking to me, so I really thought, wow, there’s something here but it really didn’t go anywhere. So when I came to Maui, I was asked to actually speak to the I AMS group, International Association of near death studies. And, and I did, I’d never heard of it. I didn’t know what it was. But then I got a great reception. And then I was asked if I wouldn’t be the CO leader. And that is what opened the door to exploring death, because then I was helping bring in speakers that had been near death experiences. And I started running the support group for near death experiences. And every time I would speak to someone or hear someone’s story, it would bring in another puzzle piece to my experience. Like I said, I thought my shared death experience was just like this kind of random, you know, little asterik or something in my life, but it suddenly started blossoming and blooming. And then I went to the first conference, the ions conference two years ago, where I met again, my tribe of people that have experienced this and it just really opened the door. So then I was like, I want to I couldn’t get enough. So that I started my exploring death podcast and got to interview all the top people you know, Suzanne giesemann and an Alexander and just all these amazing people and get to share their stories.

Brian Smith 17:12
Yeah, I really enjoyed the show. And then you from that that evolved into the real ones, which is your current project.

Lisa Jones 17:18
Right, right. Yeah, the exploring data was about two and a half years and then I just decided in March actually, just before the COVID thing took off that I decided to stop doing that podcast and my best friend golden Duffy and I started the real ones which is basically us just being authentically real about you know, energy and helping people manifest and and how to tap into the divine wisdom and, and channel things like that. So yeah, we’re just having so much fun and that’s our that’s our goal is just to follow our joy and help people along the way cuz she and I used to call each other all the time when we were having issues and we would, you know, channel stuff or talk each other through it. We’re like, We should share this with the world you know, and it’s been really fun. We’ve just had so much fun.

Brian Smith 18:05
So you you when you channel things, what are you? What are you traveling what type of things you channel?

Lisa Jones 18:09
Well, one of the things that we’re doing right now is that if people feel stuck in their life, we do a clearing. So we do a zoom call, it’s the two of us in them, and we actually we record it and, and they just tell us we make them anonymous. So because we’re going to we share it with people and they just tell us where they’re stuck in their life and so we just feel the energy of what’s going on and then we bring in the divine we bring in the angels and their you know, their guides and just we just channel whatever clearing they need a lot of times there’s you know, chakra clearings and things like that that happen and then just just bring in this divine dispensation, and we’ve heard I mean, people are just having an amazing shifts in their life. And it’s, it’s been fun.

Brian Smith 18:54
So the real ones, you have a podcast and the Facebook group, I believe, right? Yeah,

Lisa Jones 18:57
we have a Facebook group and then We also have a YouTube channel where we do we give a little extra as before and after because we do the Facebook Lives and then yeah, podcast.

Brian Smith 19:10
Yeah. And I was listening to you golden this morning. And I heard you guys talking about manifesting. Yes. So tell me what manifesting is about how does that work? And can we all do that?

Lisa Jones 19:21
Yeah, for sure. Well, that’s that’s the one of the things we love to talk about the most we call ourselves the master manifester. And we encourage people to you know, learn to manifest their life because really, we believe that you know, you’re creating your life by every choice you make by every thought you think it’s a vibration and so when you’re depending on what you’re thinking about, like if it’s, you know, if you are sad or you know, feeling discouraged or upset, that’s a vibrational level, and then you start the universe hears that vibration and then gives more of it to you. And that’s why it’s so important to of course, Feel the feelings we’re not we definitely feel like, like, for example, law of attraction sometimes is, you know, you got to always be up, up up Well, to me, because we are physical human beings, we have to feel our feelings and if we don’t feel them, they that energy gets lodged in our physical body. And that’s why golden and I do these clearings, because you got to clear out that energy in order to allow new energy to come in. And so, yeah, so manifestation, it’s really it’s just about being aware and, you know, again, being at the vibration of where of what it is you’re trying to attract in your life, because a lot of times, like if people want more money, if you’re in that vibration of wanting, wanting wanting, the universe is like, Oh, they want more money, we’ll just keep them in that vibration of wanting rather than actually receiving it. So the way to shift that is to not be in the wanting, but to imagine that you already have it and it’s kind of acting as if And to, you know, allow them that energy, the universe hears, oh, you know, they have that money. Okay, we’re going to bring them bring them more. And it’s It sounds very it’s, it sounds very simple. Obviously, there’s a lot more to it a lot.

Brian Smith 21:14
How does how does the higher self play into that? Right? Because, as humans, we always want an easy path. You know, we want health, we want wealth we want we want we all want to be you know, millionaires, right. But is there maybe the higher self does? Does that have a role in that, like our higher self might want us to be where we are?

Lisa Jones 21:34
Yeah, I love that. It’s a great question. I do believe that we are that we’ve come here to experience growth in our spiritual, you know, spirit experience. And so like, for example, my husband’s death, I truly believe that he and I signed up for this I always imagined that we’re up in heaven. Before we come down here. We have a checklist like what do you want to experience in this lifetime, you know, you go through and you check, like, Oh, you I want to experience losing a husband at a young age, you know, and all this stuff. And he, he’s like, okay, I’ll do that for you, you know, let’s do this together. So, I do believe that, that our higher self, and that our experience here is to, to go through those ups and downs. Again, you don’t even know if you’re up if you’ve never experienced a down. Right. And, and as hard as it is to lose a loved one. You know, I also believe as it were, you and I are both in this. The soul phone project? Yes, they will talk about in a minute, but I do believe that, you know, we don’t ever die. We’re just in another realm. And so that’s the exciting part is that we’re really here to embrace this physical 3d experience and to make the most of it. Yeah. And of course it’s going to there’s going to be highs and lows, but it’s just how you how you navigate it.

Brian Smith 22:57
Yeah, I’m part of a group called helping parents heal. I work with parents who have had children in the past. So, you know, one of the things that people always say when we talk about soul planning and stuff like that, they’ll say, Well, I would have never planned this. And I’ve just talked with the mother the other day said, I would have never planned this. And I was saying, I think, maybe from the perspective of your higher self, you would, because we do want these challenges. So I this is just a personal thing for me that the, you know, it’s like, Okay, how much we like I said, We’d all choose great stuff for ourselves. But I think sometimes our higher self is kinda like a parent saying, Yeah, that’s not the best thing for you right now, the best thing for you is, you need to go through this experience.

Lisa Jones 23:37
I totally agree with you. And when you said that my whole body turned chills, which to me is the universe saying truth, you know, that, of course, none of us would want to choose these really painful experiences. I mean, especially losing a child. I can’t imagine anything harder on this earth. than that and you know, and I and I’ve had experience I I don’t know if you saw my interview with my gosh, boys on I forget her. Elizabeth. Elizabeth. Oh my god, Elizabeth. Yeah, yeah. And I had spoken to the south carolina group when I lived there. And yeah, but it’s it’s so interesting when and that’s the other thing too, like when I talk about death, like it’s this higher perspective, right. And like, we know there is no end. And yet like when my son had a really one of his best friends from college was recently hit by a car. He was just walking on the sidewalk, and he was hit and killed. And I was I was speechless. I didn’t, I was having a hard time. You know, helping to support my son who’s lives in Philadelphia. I’m in Maui. And it just showed me once again that you know, the physical loss of one of our Dear loved ones it’s devastating you know, even though I talk about death all the time I get giddy about death. I mean, it’s it’s ridiculous, right?

Brian Smith 24:58
Yeah, I know.

Unknown Speaker 25:00
What I mean, I guess

Brian Smith 25:02
people think we’re weird, but I do

Lisa Jones 25:03
write I know and like I work in hospice and in fact, during my hospice training, I got really sick. I don’t ever get sick. I mean, I I went to sleep for a nap, I lay down for a nap again, another weird nap. And when I woke up, literally, my eyes were like, glued shut, and I was coughing. I was like, What is happening? Well, the next day, Spirit came to me and they said, We are giving you just a little taste of what it feels like to be laying in bed and not feeling good because you are way too excited about death. And you’re going to go help these hospice patients. You need to check yourself. Yeah, don’t don’t be bringing in your little happy sunshine. Like it’s all going to be good on the other side. No, you need to just hold space, and just let them be where they are at. And I was like, Wow, that was a huge, beautiful lesson from spirit to really take me down a notch because Yeah, sometimes us talking about death is like, for people that are experiencing it in the moment, it is not a happy, exciting.

Brian Smith 26:08
Yeah, we’re both human and spirit at the same time, and we’ve got it we’ve got to navigate both worlds. And so dealing with people with grief, I can’t go right to it’s all going to be good, right? We gotta go. We gotta do Sarah, we have to fill all the emotions. And you mentioned Suzanne giesemann earlier. I was at a conference with her and she was channeling denia and someone asked her about the tragedy of our children, you know, dying or passing early. I don’t like the word die transitioning earlier. And what you know what’s nice, I was basically everything’s a matter of perspective.

Announcer 26:42
We’ll get back to grief to growth in just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian is an author and a life coach. If you’re grieving or know someone who is grieving his book, grief to growth is a best selling easy to read book that might help you or someone you know, people work with Brian as a life coach, to break barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers at www grief to growth com www dot g ri f the number two gr o w th comm or text growth gr o w th 231996. If you’d like to support this podcast visit www.patreon.com slash grief to growth www.pateon.com slash g ri F, the number two gr o w th to make a financial contribution. And now back to grief to growth.

Brian Smith 27:42
From the human perspective, that’s a tragedy. But if we can start to really understand that they didn’t die, that they transitioned, that they went home that they’re happy that their whole they’re still with us, then it’s a different perspective. So when something happens to us and we say this is bad, it’s bad. From our current limited perspective, but if we can expand our perspective, we can maybe see how it’s, you know, it’s actually for our own good. In the case of my daughter passing, I would not be doing this if it hadn’t been for Shannon’s passing. And she reminds me of that all the time. Like, you know, this is because of me, which is why she’s in my background whenever I do these interviews, because you never once met, forget, you know, that this is all about her. So I, it’s a terrible thing. It’s a tragedy from my human perspective, I would give anything to have her back. But I know it was part of our plan. And I know that I’ll see her again. So that’s the way that I that I view it.

Lisa Jones 28:35
That’s beautiful. I know, I when I was doing my stage shows, that was one of the first things I would start with is you know, my husband died and it was the best thing that ever happened to me. And people are kind of like, like, what what did you not like him? Like, you know, it’s almost like this shocking statement and I do that purposefully because I want people to know that, you know, yeah, it was and I say I of course, if I could have kept him here I would have of course I didn’t want him to die. But the fact is that his death propelled me forward into this amazing experience that I would have never had on this earth if, if I hadn’t gone through what I did and and, and I’m grateful for it, it really it took away just all of that. I mean, I was literally living that life of you know, the white picket fence with the dog and the cat and the 2.5 kids and just everything was just so like Stepford wife or something, you know, like, like, get me out of here. And now I feel like I now I’m really understanding like, this is so exciting and to know that we don’t actually die that we get to live full out and this is our opportunity. And that’s one thing I do get when I channel passed away loved ones is they’re like, Oh my gosh, if I had only known that, you know, I was gonna live on forever, I would have taken so many more risks and challenges and you know, I would have followed my dream rather than just be stuck in like a nine to five job and being miserable. You know, like, life is too Short to be miserable.

Brian Smith 30:02
Yeah, I think that’s a great point. I know Sandra Champlain talks about that all the time about like, if we, if we really realize that we’re eternal beings, then we actually can live this life more fully, which may seem kind of counterintuitive to some people. But I think it’s really true that we would just put things into perspective and the and the day to day issues that we have here, you and I realized everything is temporary. So whatever we’re going through, it’s only going to be for a certain amount of time. So I feel like I can do anything for a certain amount of time.

Lisa Jones 30:30
Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. And even, you know, with the craziness that’s going on right now. It’s just like, Wow, well, this is just so interesting, you know, rather than for me, I just, I’m not getting caught up. I’m just trying to observe and take care of my, you know, taking care of me. What do I need to feel safe and comfortable right now and just not, you know, it’s not worth it for me to try to like figure it out or what is right or what’s wrong or like, it’s like, wow, I’m just gonna be happy now.

Brian Smith 31:00
Yeah, so you were talking about manifestations Listen, you’re golden is more your example is something that you manifested.

Lisa Jones 31:07
Oh my gosh, well just

all these things are coming to mind right now. Um, so here’s a good one right after I moved to Maui I had lost a pair of sunglasses and so I was going to order them on Amazon because I was ordering some other things and and then I I put my order in and I realized oh shoot, I forgot to order sunglasses. So I was like, Oh, well, I’ll do it later. I went on down to the beach and I was just writing in my journal or whatever and then all sudden, I look up and there’s a pair of sunglasses literally rolling up with the water right to my feet, and I’m looking around there’s nobody on the beach. So I get up and I actually Oh, so funny. They’re literally laying right here. I never had my sunglasses here. Oh my god. So these were the sunglasses, Ray Bans they were brand new, not a scratch on them. They’re now almost three years old, so But yeah, they literally rolled out and I was like wow, I was gonna order those on Amazon and these came even faster You know? And they were I looked them up they’re like a $200 pair sunglasses I was just gonna order like a $15 pair so I felt like the universe just wanted to you know show me like oh you’re worth it we’ll give you will give you something even better than you wanted so yeah, and and I’m seriously I didn’t plant that I didn’t even that’s why I’m laying here. You know,

Brian Smith 32:32
it’s interesting I you know, I Different people have different words for that. And I call them God Winx or Easter eggs actually, because Satan I love to play video games. And a lot of times there’s easter eggs hidden invisible, right? I call them I call them easter eggs. You know, these little things that kind of pop up that remind us that we’re not alone that you know, somebody is watching out for us. And yeah, it’s really cool. I think it’s a really great example of something I think, right here that I think of like I want to, I want a million dollars or I want to know I want a new car. Something like And I guess maybe we’re not grateful for the little things or manifesting the day to day basis

Lisa Jones 33:04
well and I think to just start practicing small you know i mean that’s the other thing is everybody’s like once that million dollars and you know or the car but and that can happen as well but it’s it’s really being appreciative of things like this little tiny God winks or or Easter eggs but even you know i mean i’ve got so many others I mean even meeting my my second husband David like I had 30 days after my husband died I took off my wedding ring and I just said you know, God universe, I’m ready to live. I want to meet somebody, I want somebody that will love my kids, you know, as much as I do, and just somebody with no baggage that was really I didn’t have a whole lot of standard. And then four months later, I met David I talked about it in my book and it was just it was so magical. He had been home helping his father pass. His father died just six weeks before My husband died. And his sister had lost her husband to a heart attack. And so our whole first date was about death and dying. And I’m like, Who else could I be talking to? You know about this and, and then he said he always wanted kids, but, you know, didn’t ever really want to do the baby thing. But he definitely wanted to have his son named Robert because he was a golf pro. And he wanted to Bobby Jones his last name. And I just, I was like, Oh my God, my son’s name is Robert. Yeah, so that was completely just took me off guard. So yeah, so we met for four months after my husband died, and you know, just had an amazing marriage and until I decided I really wanted to move to Hawaii and he didn’t want to come and but were wonderful friends. You know, my spirituality just kept going in a direction and he wanted to just, you know, stay and play golf and yeah, do that. So but again, like, I don’t look at it as a failure. I look at it as the perfect You know, person for the right time and yeah, you know, now we’re each on our own path doing what we love and that’s the most important thing.

Brian Smith 35:07
Well, all those experiences in our life everything teaches us something. So what I what I say is everything out of everything, something good comes, you know what, whether it’s whatever experience it is, I was I was divorced a very, very long time ago. And I remember when I met my wife that I’m married to now, she said, I really wish you hadn’t been divorced because she’s, you know, she’s like, you have your I would rather have someone who’s not divorced. And I was I said, If I weren’t divorced, I wouldn’t be the person I am now. Because you take we take these lessons with us. And so we can’t look at things in life as mistakes. They’re all something to be learned from and something that made us you know, into who we are today.

Lisa Jones 35:43
That’s right. I love that so much. Because I do feel like especially with marriages, you know, people are like, Oh, it was a failure. It’s like no, it wasn’t a failure. It was an experience and as you said, it makes us who we are today. And and just to be grateful again for for the experiences that we gained. Out of out of everything.

Brian Smith 36:01
Yeah. So Lisa, tell me about your book. It’s the art of living happy after the loss of a loved one.

Lisa Jones 36:06
Yes. So it’s really it’s a memoir, it starts out with my husband’s illness. Really, I guess the first chapter is him dying. And it was interesting, because right after he died, I was working with a book coach. And, and I had written kind of about my life up until he died. And then I had met David, and we were dating and having so much fun. And I just said, I don’t want to deal with the death right now. Like, I just so I put the book on the back burner. And then after about five years, it just was like, Okay, I think it’s time to do this. And so I called my book coach again and said, Okay, well, let’s pick this up. And she said, You know what, you’ve come so far since the death of your husband. I mean, that’s when I, you know, quit the hedge fund and started doing stage shows and radio shows. And she’s like, let’s talk about your spiritual growth. And I said, Okay, so that’s really what it’s about is, again, his death and then Really what happened and how I started channeling people and doing, you know, my biggest show I think had almost 500 people and just, it was wild and yet I was so I mean, I’m not trained as a spiritual medium. So it was like I didn’t know about like, holding space. And I mean, it was overwhelming. When I was on that stage. I had like 2000 spirits trying to come through this way. And I had about 500 people staring at me wanting me to connect with them that way, and I just I got I got blown out of the water. Like I was in bed for two weeks after that. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, so that’s really the book and then I do I try, I try to explain, you know, like, how it unfolded and what people can do to connect with their loved ones. I have a process called the pals method, pa LS Hmm. And so this was really how I learned to channel which is number one is to prepare and this is like to do automatic handwriting. That’s how I started working on my gift, okay? So you take a pad of paper and a pencil or a pen and just, you know, find a place that’s quiet, you turn off all electronics and make sure you’re not going to be disturbed. And then at the top of the paper, the second one is asked, and it’s dear angels, what would you like me to know? Or if it’s a, you know, person you’re trying to connect to, you know, just right, like they’re in what would you like me to know? And then listen, that’s the hard one. It’s discerning. Are you actually getting information from spirit or is it just your brain? And so that’s where you just take a deep breath and just write the first things that come into, you know, into your mind. And, and generally, the way you can discern whether it’s you, whether it’s you or not, is if it’s a loving message, it’s from spirit. If it’s if it’s a fear or you No, something that I don’t know I did. And this is where it is, it gets difficult to try to discern what’s what’s what’s spirit and what’s, you know, what’s your own brain, but if it’s like, I don’t know what the other word is linear. But and sometimes the message is just as easy, you know, as simple as love or, you know, joy or something like that. And then it’s a matter of practicing and then and that asked is always to say thank you when you’re done. But this is the way I started working with the angels, you know, dear angels, what would you like me to know today? And so for probably two years, every day, I would do that. And it just would get more specific. And then they started using words that I’ve never used before. And I could start really feeling again that going back to the vibrational difference of, you know, feeling energy from a from a spiritual being versus me, you know, yeah. And, yeah, so anyway, so that’s, I taught that too. When I would do my stage shows is helping people because that’s, that’s really my biggest thing. I’m really feel like I’m here to help people connect to the other side and, and guide them. And you know, because when you tap in to the other side to me, it’s your biggest competitive advantage that you have on this earth is when you got your team of divine beings that are there to back you up no matter what you know, because they’re always there for you. But you got to ask for them.

Brian Smith 40:26
Yeah, and that’s, that’s a concept. It’s actually relatively new to me. Actually, I’ve been I’ve studied afterlife for over 20 years. I guess the whole idea of that I’m reading a series of books now called the team, which is a fantastic series of books. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the bow. I’m curious woman. Her mother passed away. And then her mother came to her and channel these books and they’re just amazing wisdom. And one of the concepts is it’s called the team. So one of the concepts is, we’re never alone. We’re all here. We’re all here on a mission. As a team, and she actually starts the first book with kind of like you think of a business person going to a conference, she goes, you sit down and you prepare with your team. And then you go off and you get the presentation, you come back and you review that with your team. And she’s like, that’s kind of what we’re here on Earth. We’re actually not here just for ourselves. We’re here for our entire team. And they’re there. They’re watching over us, and they’re guiding us and cheering for us. But they also share our experiences. And so it’s really cool is that as a part of this team, we don’t have to all go through the experiences, we can actually share them. And Natalie Southern talks about that. Like in her book, also the application of impossible things about how when she had her near death experience, it was all these these beings are like, Okay, tell us what you went through. And so I think for me, that’s like, really exciting. It’s like, we’re not really ever alone.

Lisa Jones 41:49
I love that I love the team. I’m gonna have to check it out. Because that’s what it feels like to me, you know, and sometimes I do I feel alone. I feel you know, like, Oh my gosh, I’m all by myself but I’m quickly reminded that I’m not alone and that I like this concept. I mean, to me that’s been expanded from just even my own understanding about, you know, who’s there. And it is funny because I’ve had some readings by people. And as soon as they see me, they’re like, wow, you’re like that. What was that commercial Verizon where the guy walked up and there was just like, all these people. Yeah, behind him. And that’s what people have said to me is like, you are just so you know, surrounded by my, you know, beings and things. I’m like, oh, cool, because I don’t always see them or feel them. But you know, I guess I know they’re there. But I don’t always call on them.

Brian Smith 42:38
Yeah, I think it’s a good concept for all of us to try to try to get to and that’s, that’s something that I’m personally working on. So, but I hear you say that you said you want to help people understand that. I think that would help us tremendously. And when I’m dealing with people that are going through grief, you know, I was talking to somebody yesterday that, you know, you’re never alone. And they’re just their eyes just lit up and I’m saying you know, I’m really not alone. You know, ever And our loved ones that have gone ahead of us are still just still here with us are still cheering us on. So I think it’s a really cool, cool thing to understand.

Lisa Jones 43:07
I think so too. And I also think sometimes, you know, when we are so deep in our grief, I know from my own personal experience, those were the times I felt more more alone than, you know, other times and I think it really almost cuts us off from that connection. I know they’re still there, but it it makes for me, it made me feel like I wasn’t it’s not even a matter of worthiness as much as just like, I don’t know, I guess it’s just that human experience. Right? They’re still there, but you can’t you can’t sense them. Yeah. So, you know, you’re it’s like you put a energetic blanket around yourself. Like I’m alone, you know, and then you kind of create the experience.

Brian Smith 43:50
Yeah. And it but it’s, you know, I was talking to mark the other day mark, pet stick. So you know, Mark is mutual friend of ours, and we’ll talk about the cell phone in a second, but he was Have a meeting a zoom meeting and he comes into the meeting. And there were a bunch of people in the waiting room, but he didn’t realize because he was presenting, and he was the host. So it’s like, well, wow, nobody showed up. And then when the host Open Meeting, all these people are there, he calls me up, he tells me the story is like, he’s like, I’m so excited. This is such a great analogy. All these people were there. They were all waiting for me, but I just couldn’t sense them. As amaze,

Lisa Jones 44:23
I love that story. Because I’m so familiar resume and I can just imagine that like, here, you are, like, wait, I’m the only one here and then boom, you know, they’re, they’re just not connected.

Brian Smith 44:33
So they’re all there. They’re always they’re always there, you know, behind the scenes, you know, cheering us on and dropping these little easter eggs in front of us and sending you the glasses and stuff like that. And I think it’s really, you know, it’s pretty amazing. Yeah. So let’s talk about the cellphone projects. I know you just joined recently. So what’s our what is the cell phone and what’s your what’s your role there?

Lisa Jones 44:53
Yeah, well, it’s super exciting. So I interviewed Mark Pitts Deke for the AI ads Maui group here recently. Lately and actually interviewed him on my exploring death podcast too. But in his latest presentation he was sharing about how they are creating a device which is able to connect to spirit on the other side and you get yes no answers, and they’ve scientifically proven that they are accurate and it’s really almost again, I won’t say proof per se, but it’s it’s like, just statistically, it’s proving that there is life after death. And it’s just such an exciting concept and I know for like you and for me, people that already believe in that concept. It’s kind of like okay, yeah, I know. So what is this but it’s really for the rest of the world that is maybe skeptical or whatever, that this is really going to open up. I think the their eyes to knowing that there is life after death. So I mean, what do you fill us in because again, I’m new to I’m new to the program. Ram. So go ahead, and then I’ll tell you how I’m involved.

Brian Smith 46:03
Well, what you just described, I think very well. The only thing is that right now, it’s not a phone. So one of the questions I get from people all the time is like, when can I buy it? What does it look like? How much is it gonna cost? And right now, it’s not a phone. It’s more of a binary switch, as you said, so we can, it’ll be commercialized, hopefully eventually, but right right now, it’s really kind of a proof of concept thing. And, you know, it’s interesting because you and I talk about the word proof. And Gary on the project is a strict scientist. And I could never use the word proof because proofs are only mathematical. And Gary will say, you can’t even prove gravity exists. He goes to that extreme, but there’s it’s definitely some pretty severe or serious evidence. But what I find also interesting is people when I talk to you about the afterlife, they’ll say, well, there’s no evidence for that. And I’m like, if you have your eyes closed, and you and I know, there is absolutely so much evidence that the afterlife exists. So once This once the papers get published and all that stuff, they’ll always be skeptics that will find a way to dismiss it. But I think it’ll be a big step forward for people who choose to open their eyes and believe.

Lisa Jones 47:10
Yeah, I absolutely agree. I mean, again, it’s so exciting. And it’s almost daunting to imagine what is going to shift in the world when this happens to me, it’s, it’s almost like, you know, when the world was flat, and suddenly, you know, it’s like, oh, no, it’s actually round. It’s like, wow, you know, like, this is a whole new concept for so many people. But, um, so yeah, so I had interviewed mark, and he had talked about how he, you know, been going through his life and then suddenly, he was told about the soul phone concept. And it was like, he just knew that he had to be a part of it. It was like, you know, what he had been, like, driving his whole entire life toward you. When he said that on the interview, I just like, Oh, my gosh, I’m supposed to be a part of this somehow. I don’t know. But I reached out to mark after and, and I said, You know, I don’t know if there’s anything I can do, but I’d love to help maybe promoted You know, fundraise for something and he said, That’s exactly what I was thinking if you’d be interested in that. So we just started. In fact, yesterday, we videoed our first video of me interviewing him, just like 20 minute videos just to really help people understand more in bite sized chunks about what it is and to kind of open it up to more people to, to understand about it.

Brian Smith 48:23
Yeah, that’s great. Because it is it is a big kind of daunting concept. And we have the cell phone website, which I for a while, but it’s so heavy and so intense, so heavy, that heavy, heavy bite sized chunks, I think will help people really understand, you know, what it’s about and I’m excited I think, I think in a year or so we’ll have we’ll have what we would normal people will call proof Gary won’t let us use that word, but what normal people call proof That’s right. Yeah.

Lisa Jones 48:51
So it’s super exciting to be able to be kind of you know, helping the forefront you know, come in and and hear about all this.

Brian Smith 48:59
Yeah. So tell me you’re speaking at AI ns, which we’ve mentioned ions before the International Association for near death studies, the conferences online this year. So good news is everybody can attend no matter where you are. The bad news is we can all get together. But it’s August 14 through 16th. And it’s going to be online. So what are you going to be speaking about?

Lisa Jones 49:18
Yes. So I am going to be speaking with Paula lens. And the title of our meeting is called healing from shared death experiences. And Paula had an experience with her brother dying and she you know, so she had a shared death experience, and then I’ll be talking about mine. So it’s kind of an interview style. I had interviewed her for my show as well. And and it’s and it’s really about, you know, how much we healed from the experience, you know, it was like, I mean, it opened my gifts of mediumship. And, and just even my whole physical body changed after having this out of body experience. I feel like my DNA was changed, which I don’t even know I’m sure that you know, I don’t know what happened. But all I know is I could no longer eat McDonald’s or drink like sodas anymore. Like I physically couldn’t metabolize things like that. It’s like, I had to go to a pure diet. I had to stop drinking alcohol. I had to do all these things because I, I was like a completely different human being after that experience.

Brian Smith 50:20
People have Indies. Yeah,

Lisa Jones 50:22
yeah. So and see, and I don’t know about much about that. But I think from talking to people that have had, like, like I said, Those little puzzle pieces, I’m like, Oh, my God, that makes so much sense why they’re, you know,

Brian Smith 50:33
to me, that happens they can be they become more sensitive to medications, more sensitive to electronics, you know, all kinds of things that your body just becomes more sensitive.

Lisa Jones 50:44
Yeah, yeah. And that’s exactly what’s what’s happened to me and to Paula as well. And and then also she’s able to communicate with spirit as well, which, which, you know, like I said, that was something that I hadn’t been doing before at least I I didn’t know if I was I wasn’t as aware of it. As as I certainly was afterwards,

Brian Smith 51:02
yeah, so you’re speaking on the 16th. Right

Lisa Jones 51:05
on Sunday? Yep. The 16th at 6pm. Eastern time, and it might actually it’s right before Suzanne giesemann. I think she’s the final. It’s either Suzanne or Anita moorjani. Whoever is the final speaker, we’re just right before that. Excited. Yeah, we’re the warm up or the warm up band.

Brian Smith 51:21
Yeah. So I want to tell people they could find the conference at virtual conference, dot i ns. org. So it’s i i n ds, virtual conference dot ions. org, and you can register, you get access to the whole thing. And you get 90 days of access to the deal on demand after the conference is over. So will everybody know about that? And I’ll be actually doing a panel there on Saturday. So Lisa, people can reach you through the real ones.

Lisa Jones 51:46
Yeah, they can go to the real ones calm and it’s th e r e a l o n e z.com. And they can also find us on Facebook under that same name, and they can email At golden and [email protected], which is d o l, d, y n and D LSA.

Brian Smith 52:06
That sounds great. It sounds great. Do you have any parting thoughts?

Lisa Jones 52:10
Well, I guess the only thing that comes to mind is just to have appreciation for everything in your life, the good, the bad, the ups, the downs, and just imagine that, you know, this is your opportunity to be here in a 3d life and to embrace it as fully as possible and to follow your dreams. That’s what we’re here to do. And to, you know, reach out for help when you feel like you’re stumbling because there’s always somebody there and even if it’s your angels, I mean, and I’ve got chills again, as I say that, you know, just just call out to your angels and ask for help or, you know, any there’s so much. There’s so much love for us here that we don’t realize and if if we could just wrap ourselves in that love and that, that knowing that we are not alone. I think it can make everybody’s life a little bit better.

Brian Smith 53:00
Yeah, so people are feeling like they want to reach out for help they can they can reach out to you at the real ones, right.

Unknown Speaker 53:04
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Brian Smith 53:06
Lisa, it’s been really great to get to meet you. I feel like I already know you because I’ve been listening to your podcast for a long time. I’m glad to finally get to connect with you and have this interview. And I’m sure we’ll we’ll see each other around.

Lisa Jones 53:17
Sounds good. Brian, thank you so much. It was so much fun to chat with you.

Brian Smith 53:20
Yeah, enjoy the rest of your day. Okay. Hello, ha. Well, I hope you enjoyed the episode, I want to make it really easy for you to reach me. So just send me a text 231996 and simply text the word growth gr o w th. In fact you can right now just say hey Siri, send the message. 231996. And when Siri asks you what you want to send, just say growth. You can do the same thing with Ok, Google. Thanks a lot. Have a wonderful day.

Announcer 53:51
Thanks for listening to grief to growth. Brian hopes that you find this episode helpful, and we’ll come back for future episodes. Brian best selling book grief to growth planted not buried is a great resource for anyone who is coping with grief or know someone who is. If you enjoy the podcast and would like to support it, there are three things you can do to help. The first is to share the podcast with someone that you think it will help. The second is to go to iTunes rate and review the episode. The third way you can support the podcast is by becoming a patron. Head over to www patreon.com slash grief to growth. That’s pa t ar e o n.com. Slash grief, the number to growth and sign up to make a small monthly donation. patrons get access to exclusive bonus content and knowledge that you are helping to spread the message of grief to grow. For more about Brian and grief to growth visit www grief to growth.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Martha Hunt Handler is an environmentalist, an award-winning author, and the Board President of the Wolf Conservation Center. Martha is author of the new book Winter of the Wolf. For this interview, we discussed a wide range of topics including how tragedy helped form the story of her novel and how her life led to the 18-year journey to get the book out.

Winter of the Wolf is an exploration in grief, suicide, spiritualism, and Inuit culture, Winter of the Wolf follows Bean as she searches for the truth of her brother Sam’s “suicide.” Unconvinced her loving brother could commit such an act without warning, Bean pulls herself from her grief to become a part-time detective and shaman. Martha Hunt Handler grew up in northern Illinois dreaming about wolves and has always understood that her role in this lifetime is to tell stories and be a voice for nature. She has been an environmental consultant, a magazine columnist, an actress, and a polar explorer, among other occupations. She has also driven across the country in an 18-wheeler and been a grand-prize winner of The Newlywed Game.

Soon after she and her family relocated from Los Angeles to South Salem, New York, she began to hear wolves in her backyard. This was the start of her twenty-plus-year career as an advocate for wolves at the Wolf Conservation Center, where she currently serves as Board President.

 

ℹ️ https://marthahunthandler.com/author

Transcript

Brian Smith 0:00
Hey everybody, this is Brian Smith. I’m back with another episode of grief to growth. And today I’ve got with me Martha Hunt Handler. And Martha is an author and a fat fascinating all around person. But we’re going to talk today about her book was called winter of the wolf was just released a couple days ago. So I’m gonna read a short introduction and then and then I’ll bring Martha on. Mark, the handler is an environmentalist, and award winning author and the board president of the wolf Conservation Center. She’s the author of the new book winner of the wolf, which is available just a few days ago just came out on Tuesday, recorded on Friday, July 10 20. Martha grew up in Northern Illinois, dreaming about wolves and is always interested that her role in this lifetime is to tell stories and to be a voice for nature. She’s been an environmentalist, environmental consultant, a magazine columnist and actress, a polar explorer, among other occupations. She’s also driven across the country in 18 Wheeler. I’ve been a grand prize winner of the Newlywed Game soon after Arthur and her family relocated relocated from Los Angeles to Southern Salem, New York, she began to hear wolves in her backyard. This was the start of her 20 plus year career as an advocate for wolves. And at the wolf Conservation Center, where as I said, She’s currently serves as the board president. So that want to welcome Martha handler.

Martha Hunt Handler 1:17
Thank you so much for having me, Brian. This is a really exciting my book touches on a lot of subjects. But I would say the whole grief to I call it gratitude is a big one for me. And one of my I think, most important messages. I hope it’s driven home in my book.

Brian Smith 1:37
Yeah, well, that’s great because that ties right in with the theme of what I’m trying to do here is trying to help people to move from those tragic events in their life to to learning from them to go into gratitude or go into growth or, or whatever there may be. So let’s, you’ve had some interesting things in your background, you what’s driving across the country, an 18 Wheeler.

Martha Hunt Handler 1:59
I was I just graduated from college at University of Colorado Boulder. And I was in a Volkswagen and it was about 110 degrees that day. And I shot a piston through my engine. So I knew the car was shot. I had no chance of affording to be able to fix it at that point. And there had been this 18 Wheeler, who had been following me and I had probably had very short shorts on and he was kind of honking his horn at me, and he would go ahead of me, and then I would go ahead and him. And as I was sitting on the side of the road, with all my stuff, boxes and boxes, wondering what I was going to do, because I think I was at least 60 miles from the next town. He pulled up in behind me and said, let’s put your car on my trailer and go, I’ll take you to the gas station. And I mean, it sounds crazy now, but that was back in the day. You know, it was like 81 I hitchhiked all over the place didn’t think anything of it. And he was like 510 he was probably five, four. He was a very small guy, so I wasn’t particularly worried. Anyway, he was great. It was the most enlightening trip I’ve ever had, I mean, roles vary the number of drugs that he did to get to be able to stay up the number of hours that he needed to stay up, but he always seemed perfectly sane. And I learned just so much about being on the road and what it’s like to basically live in a 18 Wheeler. And for me, I got to sit on a double bed and he was buying me magazines and meals and it was awesome trip.

Brian Smith 3:30
Wow. Wow. So that was one of your early life experiences. Yes. And you’ve had it sounds like several different careers. You’re a polar explorer, you’ve been an actress. So tell me about some of how things how one thing led to another cuz I always find it fascinating how life kind of comes at us. You know, we look we can look back on it make sense of it. When we’re going through it. It’s it can be crazy. Yeah.

Martha Hunt Handler 3:50
Yeah, I think. Um, so when I was very young, probably starting when I was four or five, growing up in Northern Illinois. Was Woods sort of all around me, we were the first house in what was going to be a plan subdivision. And my parents were very open to me going out on my own from a very young age. And so I was always in the woods and I could hear animals speaking to me very strongly with different voices. And they were all worried about the same thing about that the whole area was going to be destroyed, and they were going to lose their habitat. And I was always going to my parents to, you know, tell them that this is really scary. And can we stop it? And I don’t think they had any idea what I was talking about. Yeah, um, and I was probably like, seven before I mentioned it to a friend who also acted like I was crazy. And so I kind of shut that part of myself down. Because I didn’t want to be crazy. Yeah. And I think that’s another you know, a big lesson in my book about being yourself. And like listening to anything that comes to you and embracing your uniqueness because I think as children and teenagers we want to fit in. And it’s sort of a, it’s a sad thing because I think we leave the knowing and the best part of ourselves behind or try to shut it down, which is not a good thing. So, as time went on, I would hear the voices just became much more faint. And then my I graduated high school really early when I was 16. And I didn’t want to go to school in Illinois, which was all my father was willing to pay for. So I decided to take off in my car. It ended up breaking down in steamboat, Colorado. And when I was talking to the mechanic about what was wrong, he’s told me it was probably going to be at least $600 which I do certainly didn’t have said why don’t you come pump gas for me you can live in my garage. And you can pay it off that way. So I did and it was an interesting time in steamboat because they were the was actually for sale the ski mountain was. And up until that point they had, they didn’t allow any franchises. No fast food, they were really strict about what they were allowing there. And a company I can’t remember who it was, but somebody in Texas bought it and got all their people on the board. And all of a sudden things really started to happen quickly and not in a good way. tall buildings were going up and it was bad and I started hearing nature again really strongly. And so when I went to college, I decided I mean I’ll have to be an environmental have to do something environment and back in 1980s there was an Nothing, no major like that. So I sort of made one up. I’d started off in environmental engineering, and quickly realized that this wasn’t going to help me or enable me to do what I wanted to do. So I just kind of made up my own major. And when I graduated, a few years later, I ended up in Washington DC. And by that point, there was a lot It was easy to do environmental consulting, so I worked for a private firm but we mostly did our work with the EPA and Department of Energy and worked on a lot of nuclear programs.

And it was interesting work but it wasn’t I was transferred there. Then I went to transfer to San Francisco and then Los Angeles. And it was becoming less fulfilling as time went on in LA pretty much it was all a oil spill cleanups and things like that. So not very rewarding. Yeah. I was like pretty open to what was going to happen next. We ended up moving to Where we are now in South Salem, New York. And since I was very young, I always had wolves in my dreams and they were not necessarily there with any other animals that would just be like a wolf would pop into my dream and kind of point out something like a road I should be taking and that I was not paying attention to. Hmm, sort of just like a teacher would show up. But always there was some kind of lesson behind it. So I started hearing these wolves howling and I think at first I might be crazy, but my husband here isn’t like kids hear it. So I’m like, Okay, I guess not. I walked into the backyard one day into this forest and I found an enclosure with three wolves in it. And next to it was a trailer. And I knocked on the door and met a lender mold. And she was at the time I think about 26 years old. She’s from oxen, pro boss in France. She was the youngest student to ever graduate from the Paris Conservatory. And she told me that she’d become psychically connected to a wolf and the wolf had told her that wolves were in huge trouble. And she decided, Okay, this is what I’m gonna devote my life to this makes sense to me I given her touring schedule. She’s really famous, um, she would never be able to have a family or settle down. So she decided she would draw it. She always want to live in America. She drew a circle around JFK because that was the airport, she needed to get to her international dates. And she picked this property and was just starting out. It wasn’t yet a nonprofit. She was just starting to raise money and figure out how to do the paperwork. And she asked me to jump on board and I did and that has been like, a guiding force in my life because I feel it immediately felt like, Okay, this, I’m in tune with what I’m supposed to be doing here. Mm hmm. That it was interesting because recently, I was having stomach pains for a couple of years I’ve been to every doctor’s no one could figure out what my pains where I went to to a clinic in Austria for a few weeks, and as part of the program, they see you, you see a lot of different doctors in different you know, sort of like internists and also psychiatrists, and a shaman. So when I went to the shaman, he put me into a trance, and then he’s startled me a couple of weeks, really, probably five minutes into it, I think. And he shook me awake. And he said, Do you do something with Wolves? And I said, Yes, he said, because there’s like, 50 of them in my office. Right? Right. I’ve never had this happen to you before. I said, Okay, I’m going to put you back under and when I came back out, he said, so I’m just gonna give you the message from the wolves and they say, stick in your wolf lane, like you’re becoming so diluted, because you’re so worried about everything else environmentally that’s going on, that you’re not doing the work that you were put on the planet to do and your whole stomach will Calm down once you’re back on track, so I thought that was a, you know, a really interesting and I often have to remind myself of this experience, it only happened like a year ago. But Hmm, it’s easy, especially now during COVID I think to keep getting distracted by so many other things. And then I start feeling the pains in my stomach. I have to completely recenter and then they go away.

Brian Smith 11:21
What’s interesting you got that message right? So now you know the path that you need to be on.

Martha Hunt Handler 11:27
Loud and clear.

Brian Smith 11:28
Yeah. So let’s talk let’s talk about the book. So what When did you start writing the book what made you just start to decide to start writing the book?

Martha Hunt Handler 11:37
So it’s been a long journey, I’m a backup and just go to my childhood a little bit in that I grew up very

Unknown Speaker 11:46
I would say spiritually

Martha Hunt Handler 11:49
on my from my mother. She brought me to funerals all the time because she was sort of like the Mother Teresa of our town. And I could always feel a spirits were in the room or not, and we would talk about it And then I probably started in middle school, going to a friend’s mother who brought like, maybe six girls together. Who were? Yeah, I think about 13 or so. And we talked about spirituality and we read books together and the mother was my best friend Gretchen’s mother. And during that time, her little sister passed away. And it was very interesting because she was sick for probably six weeks. And I was about to go out of town and I was just saying goodbye to her and I’d see it you know, so you want to get back and she said, You won’t see me again. I’m leaving. Um, and when I came back, she had passed away and she had had a brain tumors. So our spiritual group turned very much to communicating with her asking her for signs which she always gave us. And it was amazing to go through that experience with that family. Because as horrible as it was, and it’s, you know, it’s never an easy thing. The the ability to communicate with this girl Sarah was pretty incredible. So fast forward, I am living in South Salem, and I get the call that, you know, well, much worse to be the mother but from Gretchen saying that she found her 12 year old son hanging from about in his closet while she was home. Mm hmm. And

Unknown Speaker 13:42
I think I was devastated on a level

Martha Hunt Handler 13:48
that I didn’t expect because I I felt like, guess what we know that he’s right here with us. You know, he’s able to do this all the time now. But I couldn’t say that to her and she couldn’t bleed any of that stuff because it was just too hard. And as you know, suicides are even worse because there’s a lot of guilt that focuses around that situation. And I listened to so many people at the funeral and afterwards saying, well, it was so sick, why don’t you get them some help? And, yeah, there’s just a lot of blame that goes on. It’s just devastating. And he wasn’t a boy that was having any difficulties that she knew of. He hadn’t been depressed in any way. It was really, really shocking. And

Brian Smith 14:38
I think a lot of people don’t realize that especially with youth suicides, that they don’t always show that the classic signs of depression that we would expect they can be very outgoing and seemingly happy. And this has happened to a couple of friends of mine actually, very recently. And you’re like you said, there’s there’s always this guilt that the parent has, well, why did I miss this? How did I miss this?

Martha Hunt Handler 14:59
so horrible. So on top of this, Gretchen felt very strongly that he didn’t commit suicide, which was, you know, crazy thinking on everybody’s part, but she was really sure that he didn’t. And I believed her. And we, she came out to New York from Illinois, because she still lives in the town we were born in and we saw a medium together. And it was actually a really interesting group because it was probably about two months after 911 happened. And it was a group for parents who lost children. And she court couldn’t afford the single session so that I think there was 10 groups of two so you could bring your spouse or someone else in the family or best friend, she brought me because her husband was not really into it. And that was amazing. And reaffirmed both of our beliefs. I think But it just, I think we’ve refocused for sure about, okay, he’s still with us. And we have to, like, believe that completely. Yeah. And not give in to the belief that he’s not here with you. Um, and she had been asking him to show her sign and he appeared one night and she said, I felt like he was almost admonishing me like, Mom, you have all people know that I’m still here. You don’t need me to be, you know, sending you feathers or dragonflies. Come on, you’re way better than that. Um, and the group was really interesting. So the think there was four people of the 10 that had been that last summer. And they each came through basically saying, remember, like, it’s, it was our time to go. I know it seems crazy that many people go at one time, but in the overall planetary souls leaving and coming It wasn’t an extraordinary Day or moment, it was just a Yeah, we’d planned this for a very long time. It just happened to be that we were all together in that one moment.

And before

um, when the medium was saying before everyone got their for the like the last four days, the souls had been kind of lining up and telling him what to purchase that would help their loved ones believe that there was communication going on between them. And it was a lot of

Unknown Speaker 17:33
religious things.

Martha Hunt Handler 17:37
Pictures of saints or metals or things like that, and my girlfriend Gretchen was sort of like, well, if you you know, gives anything to me, Well, no, this whole thing is a hoax. And she was the only one that got nothing. Um, and when her son did come through, he said, I never planned the stuff that happened really suddenly. But I see now that it was the right thing. What I needed to accomplish in this lifetime wouldn’t I put myself in the wrong circumstances to be able to do what I needed to do and it was better for me to just abort the situation. I’m sorry for the pain that it caused. Though. Not long after this, I was just journaling every day trying to think of ways to comfort Gretchen, who was really not doing very well and was about to get a divorce and she still had other kids who really needed her. And I was skating on a lake with a friend and I found this dead deer that had been frozen into the surface. And for some reason, at that moment, it’s it triggered something and I started hearing from her son, who was encouraging me to write a book about this experience. Hmm and I kept saying, but I don’t even know what happened to you. What am I writing? I don’t even know what happened. But I just like trusted that if I showed up, things would start getting written. That was a long journey because it took me 18 years from that moment, the book finally being published. Yeah, I think it was a journey I needed to go on. And I think quieting my mind enough to hear his voice also meant that I let in a lot of other voices. And it took me a while to to be strong enough to say, I this is not your story. I can get to your story, maybe at some other point. But this has got to be Brandon’s story, because that’s my focus right now. Mm hmm. And so it was a lot of sort of growing and listening to him and believing that what I was hearing and writing had some truth to it. And more and more things just kept coming up for me like the important important things in my life like I just feel like Do you need to really try to tap into your knowing and your strength? Because I think at a vulnerable age, it only takes like one sentence. You know, it only takes a math teacher telling a little girl in sixth grade that numbers aren’t your thing for you to just close up that, right? Yeah, um, or an art teacher telling you, boy, you’re just not very creative or you don’t have a, you know, your creative bone in your body just don’t even think about that as a career. Or for me, it was my dad, like, I remember so distinctly. Because during the writing, I was my father passed away, and I was cleaning out boxes. And I came upon this book that I had written when I was seven years old and illustrated. I remember staying up super late that night because they were out to dinner and I wanted to show it to them. And I felt like Oh, I’d find myself I’m going to be a writer. And when they walked in the door, and I showed them, my dad said, well, it’s not a very good story and you’ll never make money as a writer. So put that right out of your head. And that really shut me down. I mean, I really never gave it another thought, again, until this happened with my friend son like I had done. I was a magazine columnist so I, you know, I could write, it was more like a humor column I, you know, I’d always written nonfiction, but getting back to believing in myself, you know, and I wondered, like if my dad hadn’t said that to me what my path would be. Although, you know, ultimately, my path is my path. And I’m on it, I’m sure.

Brian Smith 21:33
Right, right. Yeah, you know, that’s, that’s another excellent point that I think you bring up. You talk about how quickly we can shut down and how open children are. And I think it’s very important for children, to speak words of encouragement to them, and to be very careful with with the criticisms because I think we I think children come in, just naturally open and I mean, intuitively, and then we say things like, well, that’s silly. That’s just your imagination, or as you said, we say you will you’re not really good at that. And we never make any money doing that. And we don’t realize how deeply that goes into a child’s psyche.

Martha Hunt Handler 22:09
Yes. And it’s like, you know, that old saying, which I really hate now sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me. Yeah, when I think it’s just the opposite, right? I mean, boy, oh boy. I just finished. I don’t know if you’ve read it by Glennon Doyle’s untamed man. It’s sort of her journey. She was told, I think when she was nine, that one of her teachers said something like, oh, you’re gonna have to really watch your diet because you’re already getting a little chunky around your middle. And she became bulimic at 10 years old. Yeah. And I think, yeah, all those things are increasing so much. So we really, really have to be careful. There’s just so many things that you can implant without ever giving it a second thought. I know I have a friend who’s um, she was one of the first plus size models and I hate that word, but whatever she would always warn me because I, you know, I just, I’m a woman in my 60s and I’m like, constantly needing to lose weight, you know, and she was like, You can’t even say it around your daughter, not one time, like, or son probably, you know, like, don’t just take the carrot and not the cheese. Don’t say anything about why you’re making that decision. You know, it’s one thing when you’re around your girlfriends, and they, they’re all in the same boat, but to say anything derogatory about your body or dieting to young girls and young boys is not a good idea.

Brian Smith 23:51
Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s really important that we do watch our words around, around around young people. So you’ve taken this, this experience. You’ve had this the spiritual journey that you’ve been on the the tragic death of your of your friend Gretchen’s son and kind of poured it into this this fictional story. We’re going to call it fictional but sounds like there’s a lot of elements of truth to this.

Martha Hunt Handler 24:14
A lot of elements. So I would say my protagonists been, who’s 15 when the story starts, and it’s your 17 year old brother who’s passed away, um

Brian Smith 24:27
wolves Hold on.

Martha Hunt Handler 24:37
fictionalized idealized version of myself if I had believed in myself and believed in my knowing and believed in my voices and listened to myself, so she is convinced that her brother did not commit suicide. She was incredibly close to him. Yeah, it was her soulmate for life and she has two other brothers that she’s not as close to at all. Hmm. And so she is unable to grieve, because how do you grieve for somebody that you’d never knew. I mean, just nothing makes sense to her. So her best friend agrees that, let’s go figure out, if you don’t believe it happened, I don’t believe it happened. Let’s go do what we can do. So they decided to interview everybody that he was with in the last few days before he passed. They don’t really find a lot of information there. But she’s also learning more about her own family because she interviews her brothers and realizes that she might have sold them short. might have made judgments about who they were as people, and maybe that’s not really who they were. And then they start doing some they do a shamanic ritual, which is a really heavy experience. Um, and it’s, you know, it’s a lot about girlfriends being good girlfriends sticking with each other believing in each other. And then there’s a wolf that keeps showing up. And he would throw other Sam was very into Inuits for some reason, who are natives from Canada, the native people and so they’re reading all of his Intuit books and they believe that you can transition from animals to people back to animals again, at that your whim when you pass, whenever. So the sighting of this Wolf, they’re in northern Minnesota, but seeing a wolf in the middle of the day is a very unusual thing. They’re pretty elusive creatures and she’s seeing this one Black Wolf more than one time and starts believing that it might be your brother that’s hanging around her. And so it talks a lot about I think the better way that our native cultures dealt with death, you know, a believe that it was simply a transition and nothing more. And so, and I think like, we know that scientifically that energy cannot be made or destroyed. But we don’t think about that in terms of so what do you know? What do people think happens to a soul? It can’t just disappear, which is always I thought really interesting. Anyway, it’s a mystery, so I can’t tell you

Unknown Speaker 27:31
and ruin the whole secret. Yeah, sure. I would say that.

Martha Hunt Handler 27:36
That it’s, it’s an interesting ending.

Brian Smith 27:40
Yeah, it sounds fascinating. So how did how did you decide to include the the new addendum element into the story?

Martha Hunt Handler 27:48
Because I watched them look at the North when I was in third grade, and I became obsessed with it. Um, yeah, you can see my office right now. It’s like full of Intuit things I have, huh? Yeah. And feathers and like, tons of annual books. I think. Yeah, I think it’s like, yeah, I think it’s been past life stuff. Yeah, just really strongly related to them. And maybe a reason that I like being a polar explorer. Like any chance I’ll get I’ll go to Antarctica or the Arctic. I feel most at home there. I don’t know. Feels like my place. Yeah, get any of my friends to agree to go. There all. thing I want to do is go play someplace cold, but it’s just so peaceful and quiet and a silence like you don’t really get to hear anymore.

Brian Smith 28:40
Yeah, it’s interesting. How it seems like we have callings to places and things and stuff. You know, I think possibly from past lives. I interviewed someone I’m working with her name is Robin land song. And she was actually kidnapped. She grew up I think in Philadelphia, and she was kidnapped by this guy and taken to Africa. I guess for the first time in our life like I felt at home that little white girl and South Africa were Mondays black people that were their thing. The tradition was singing and stuff and she felt just so at home there and even to this day, and I Robin’s in her 40s or 50s I’m gonna guess she’s just drawn to that culture. So it’s interesting. It sounds like you’ve got a similar experience with the with the native Canadians.

Martha Hunt Handler 29:25
Yes. So this is interesting. I’ve always been like, I had hair down to my waist. I weren’t like Pocahontas. I had headbands on. I mean, that was just kind of me because my grandfather was an Algonquin Indian. And even though we didn’t talk much, and he wasn’t like, the nicest friendliest guy, for some reason, I was just obsessed with it. And I recently did a 23andme and found out that Nope, no Native American ancestry. At the time, I was going to see us like that too much later. I was I’m just devastated. You know, he’s like, that’s your blood. But you’re you’ve been in those lives for many, I could give you a lot of instances, but you have been in native cultures lived in those cultures, many lifetimes, it doesn’t matter what your blood is.

Brian Smith 30:17
Yeah, I think we’ve placed too much emphasis on our physical DNA and not enough in our spiritual DNA. And we’re starting to understand I think a little bit better that we have this we have spiritual DNA that comes from our, in our past experiences, not necessarily physical.

Martha Hunt Handler 30:32
Yeah, I think it’s really important.

Brian Smith 30:35
So, yeah, the book, it sounds like, you know, I know it’s kind of positioned as I think a young adult book, but it sounds like it’d be great for people of all ages to because of the very difficult things in the book. Not difficult in terms of things most people don’t really like to face, but I think the really deep questions.

Martha Hunt Handler 30:56
Yes, I think so too. It’s I think it’d be a great book. For both groups I think it’s a good like mother daughter or father’s you know just there’s lots lots of openings to have discussions around this. All these so many different topics. It’s hard I think when you’re brought up believing in reincarnation and past lives and you can be in touch with pretty much to be and those that aren’t and it’s hard to

Unknown Speaker 31:33
it’s hard for me to have

Martha Hunt Handler 31:37
to me, um, I just had with my kids, I have four kids in their 20s and they’re all back living with us during this COVID and they have each had a you know, a friend from growing up that is overdose during this time and it’s been really sad and hard for them and each one of these cases Is the child had been recovered for like a year or two. And so it’s come out of the blue. And I know, this is happening everywhere. It’s just a terrible time for people that have any kind of substance issues and psychological issues and whatnot. And I only was friends with one of the mothers and I had called her to tell her how sorry it was and, and I knew that she had similar beliefs to mine. And so she was telling me, yeah, I just had this really interesting experience because, you know, I do believe he’s around me, but physically, it’s really hard for me because he lives so close and we connected every day. And

that part’s really,

really difficult. So I had gone to the bookstore the other day to say, and I just, you know, walking into it said her son’s name was Sean, like, Sean, could you please, we, you know, send me to a book that’s gonna help me right now. I just need Just a little something. And so she walked into the store. And this drum Medley was on that her son played all the time. And it was his ringtone on his phone. And she thought like, this is just so weird because it’s a very obscure

Unknown Speaker 33:12
drum.

Martha Hunt Handler 33:13
And she was in the section on spirituality and she asked the bookseller, if you could recommend any book, she and her son, she heard his voice saying sign signs. And so she said, two signs may mean a thing, too. And she goes, Yeah, the book is right in front of your eyes, and pulled it out. I don’t know if you’ve ever read that book. But um, it’s called the secret language of the Universe by Laura Lynn Jackson. And after that, I said, should we read it together? And we’ll, you know, maybe discuss it and she’s like, that’d be great. So I’m reading it right now. And it’s just so funny when you open that door like I was sitting here reading it. I’m sitting on a In our leg on it aired inner tube and it was talking about how fireflies and dragonflies are very they show up a lot when you’re trying to reach out and I had like five fireflies land it just hanging out was reading the book and then it said electronic things can often go start going crazy. And I was like, all of a sudden my cell phone wasn’t working. I went up to do something on my computer it was doing some really weird stuff and i don’t know i think you know, you know when you open yourself up and you’re in that place, it just floods you Yeah. You and your your podcasts a synchronicity. I always say like, there’s no coincidences. There’s only coincidence. And yeah, as soon as you just open a little bit they come flooding in and it’s awesome. Yeah,

Brian Smith 34:53
yeah. Some people call him God winks. I call him easter eggs, my shade and I like to play video games and programs. Put these little things in the game that just kind of little, little nods that you’re, you know that they’re there. And so I look at it’s kind of like whoever, whoever is controlling this whoever’s behind the curtain or whatever, every once in a while they give us these little things. And if you if you look for them, they become really prevalent and they become they become undeniable. And I everybody I’ve seen this kind of opened up to that, you know, you can start to see these things, you know, happen in your

Martha Hunt Handler 35:24
life. Cool. I didn’t know that. Never heard that before. That’s great.

Brian Smith 35:28
Yeah. So I yeah, you know, this this world and that’s why I really like about the story that you’re telling me because it does take us beyond the material and maybe a non threatening way to people. And as I was thinking about this, and I was as I was reading your materials before we got on, you know, I said work with helping parents heal. So a lot of times when that when that child has died by suicide, the other kids are left behind. We don’t even know how to talk to the It’s hard enough to talk to a sibling anyway, but when it’s a suicide, it brings us whole different Level things and this. And kids approach things differently when they’re in the teenage years and stuff. They don’t they don’t process grief necessarily the same way we do. So I think maybe your book could be a way a non threatening way to introduce these concepts to a child that doesn’t maybe want to talk about it.

Martha Hunt Handler 36:17
Yeah, I think so. So she really she doesn’t have the the beam does not have the part that says, There was things left unsaid because she was so close to her brother, but her brothers have that. I mean, they they all the three of the boys shared around together. But the other two brothers were sort of, you know, athletic. They thought he was kind of crazy at long hair. He was always trying to live out in nature as much as possible. They just didn’t relate to him in a whole lot of levels. But when he passes, there’s such a sense of why didn’t I say that? I loved him. You know, why didn’t I hug him more? Why didn’t I show him that? I thought he was a really cool guy for doing things that weren’t done by anybody else.

Yeah, so I think that’s such an important lesson to

write like, just just remind yourself to tell the people around you every day, you know how much you love them and care for them. And yeah, how cool it is when someone does something that’s unexpected or different. And you know that it was probably a painful thing for them to come out and say that or do that. It’s just, yeah.

Brian Smith 37:25
Well, you touched on this earlier, but I think, do you believe that even when people pass early, I rarely use the word died? Because I don’t believe anybody dies, we just would transition. But when people transition early, do you think that’s a plan thing?

Martha Hunt Handler 37:40
I do. I mean, from everything

that I have listened to and read, it seems like there’s almost like a contract being signed that you’re going to do this in this amount of time, and then move on. I think there are incidences where you get here and it’s not Maybe you picked the wrong parents, maybe you picked the wrong geographical location. Maybe some other situation is not quite what you had thought. And so maybe you decide to go earlier than you might have. For the most part, most of us go when you’re when you plan to go. Um, and so I try in the book to get people to see like, No, none of us were promised tomorrow. So all we have is what we’ve already experienced. So when someone passes, it’s such a great time to like, think of all that they gave to it in the life in the time that they were here, and it might be six months, and it might be five years and it might be 50 years, it might be 100 years, but that’s the that’s what you have of that person. Everything that they gave to you that they shared with you that you learn from them, because that’s all you really have. Yeah,

Brian Smith 38:58
yeah, those are those are also very, very Lessons because whether it’s suicide or whatever we’re not promised tomorrow, but my daughter Shana transitioned, she was healthy, she just come back for a volleyball tournament. And you know, we always think we’ve got we’ve got tomorrow, we’ve got a long time when people are young, and we need to seize the moment, we have to embrace the day. And you made a good point we need to whatever amount of time we have within Let’s be grateful for that time. And, and, and hold on to that and, but we can continue the relationship as well. And that’s, I think, an important lesson that it doesn’t have to be the end. It’s just different.

Martha Hunt Handler 39:35
I always say, like,

just start talking to the people that have passed, like, I always talk to my mom, and maybe it’s my voice answering but maybe it’s hers, you know, why not be open to the thought that, that it isn’t my voice. She’s telling me giving me her advice. And I think it’s so it’s such a better way to think right? I mean, it was so good. It’s been so hard in New York City to, especially in

March and April and part of May when our

hospitals were completely full or ICU beds were overflowing there was bodies being put on trucks and and people were so fixated on I didn’t get to say

goodbye, I didn’t get there was no last rites.

And like I listen to all your podcasts and everything else and you’re like,

you know, those things are just,

you know, constructs, I would think that the one thing you would want religion to do would be to uplift you in those times and give you the the feeling that it’s it. It’s okay, if there was no physical thing that needed to be done. You didn’t need to physically be with them. You didn’t need to be holding their hand you didn’t need to be giving them last rites, that’s really immaterial. They, they left and they’re still with you. So like, yeah, embrace Because I feel I feel there’s so much hurt right now with people not getting that final farewell and in kept out of the hospitals and I wish there was a way to just try to help them a little bit. It’s got it I mean it’s a horrible feeling if you are part of a religion that makes you feel that without that final word, they’re going to you know, fire and brimstone about you know all everyone that’s ever left and came back I don’t think there’s ever been an experience that was in any way better anything we would kind of take with hell right I mean, they’re all really positive experiences

Brian Smith 41:42
there have there are some negative experience with it, like all negative experiences. They’re they’re fairly rare but what’s interesting interview pmh Atwater who studied you know, thousands of their death experiences, and she told me a story. She said there were two people in a seminar she was giving one person stood up and said I had to have experience. When I had my nd it was it was the worst thing that ever happened to me, because I came back and they were maladjusted. And they just had a really terrible time. Another person had a we call a hellish experience. And she said was the best thing that ever happened to her. So there are some people that have those experiences, but they’re always temporary. And they usually I think they’re the projections of our own imagination, and no one ever stays in them. So, but the idea that there’s eternal hell is just that’s nowhere from anybody that’s haven’t ever had an experience that says that that exists. But yet, you know, you might have another point earlier, this is a choice as to how we look at things. And it’s it’s such a much better way to look at things it just gives it so fraying. And this idea and I and I’ve seen these people, too, that they’re just heartbroken that my loved one died alone. I wasn’t there to say goodbye to them. Well, first of all, I’ve been told by many mediums no one ever dies alone, that there’s always somebody there to meet us. So we don’t We don’t die alone. They didn’t you know, they didn’t die, you know that way. And when you think I wish I’d been there, they probably came to you right away. You know, probably as soon as they’re out of the body, they were right there with you. So we’ve got to get over this this hang up with a physical body. Yeah, I wasn’t there with their body when they died and just look at it as they just slipped out of their body. And then they were free to be wherever they wanted to be.

Martha Hunt Handler 43:25
Yeah, and I listened to a few of yours and others were, yeah, that sense of like, looking back down at your body all hooked up, and doctors going crazy. And you’re like, it’s such peace. And yeah, I want to go back into that. So when my mother passed, she went, she had lung cancer, and I went home to help my dad take care of her. And as sort of as soon as I got there, my dad checked out and I don’t know where he went every day so early and stayed all day and came home very late, but I basically wasn’t seeing him and I had just had my third child. He was a baby and I had to stop breastfeeding to fly home to be with us. I was like, an agony. And my mother and I talked about all the time. And you know, she was feeling really guilty that I was there. And she was like, you know, starving me, because that’s probably the quickest way like, just give me like a little sip and then stop it. And we kept saying, Is there anybody that means there’s somebody you haven’t seen, because hostos kept saying, Oh, she won’t last 48 hours. And it was like, another week and another week, and it was it was going on for like two months. And she was like, well invite this person, invite this person and nothing was yours. We couldn’t figure out what was keeping her keeper. Yeah. And then one day a girlfriend called and she had just had a baby and I had, and I was before cellphones. And I was like, I called this diner to see if my dad happened to be there as well. He plays I think he would be that early in the morning and he was there. And I said, you need to get home because I need to go to the hospital and see a girlfriend. So we came home and I didn’t even get to the house. But before my dad called me and said your mom just passed, and I was like, Of course she needed to be with my dad. Not that she needed to be with my dad. But I think my dad would have been devastated given how little time he spent with her mom in those last few months if he hadn’t been there, so Wow, that was pretty

Brian Smith 45:18
amazing. It is it is and and I have a friend Deborah diamond, she’s a death doula. And she says that basically I you know, until the body is ready, you know, then we don’t go until our souls ready. We don’t go and people go and whatever the right time is. And it’s interesting because people when they’re in hospice, a lot of times sometimes they’ll wait till someone comes. And sometimes they’ll wait till someone leaves the I guess a lot of times they’ll pass from the families out of the room and people say, Oh, I missed their passing. It’s like, no, they wanted you to be out of the room when they when they went that was that was intentional. So we have to feel like we have to understand however it happened. That’s how it’s supposed to happen.

Martha Hunt Handler 45:55
Yes. When my father My father went into a diabetic coma. And when he came out of the hospital, he was put in a rehab facility. And he was sort of I don’t I don’t know, like that dementia where maybe he had one foot in the other world and one foot here and it was very confusing for him. But one of my brothers had promised him he’d never put them in a nursing home. And that was going to be the next step. And the nurses were telling me, it doesn’t make sense for your brother to take him home. Your dad’s very large man. It’s going to be very hard to keep him comfortable. And keep enough people around him, for him to be safe. And in a good spot, and you’ve got to convince your brother but it was just he was like, I only made one promise to dad and I’m not going to break it. So I contacted one of those death doulas and was just asking and she and she said, Okay, I’m tapping into them. Yeah, I think he was like an engineer, right. And I said, Yeah, he said he was very calculated about everything and he was supposed to be letting go and going in a different direction. didn’t really do that. But he’s doing the work right now. And I can’t tell you if it’s going to take an hour or if it’s going to take years. But he’s doing the important work right now. And he’s not in a place that he can understand where he is. So it’s, it will not in any way harm to putting in a nursing home. But of course, my brother still was like, Well, I don’t care about your crazy thoughts. Like I’m taking him home. So the morning that he was being packed up

to leave he right is the van pulled up, he passed away. Wow.

So it was like, thank you. Thank you, thank you. But it was an interesting experience when you have a sibling and you’re on very different pages with this whole thing. And I understand, but I would you know, I would say to people never make anyone promise they will put you in a nursing home. You know, I always tell my kids just do what’s ever most comfortable for you and I am totally okay with that.

Brian Smith 47:58
Yeah, that’s what we’ve had. My father in law went through dementia. And he was a really outdoorsman, loner, Daniel Boone, you know, type of guy, whatever. And, but he ended up with a dementia to the point where he was just in and out. And I think I, you know, it’s interesting that this happened seven, eight years ago, I guess now maybe even longer. And I look at it differently now that I’ve learned so much, because I think he was he was crossing over and coming back. And he would say things that made no sense from this existence. And Raymond Moody talks about the nonsense that people start to talk about when they’re when they’re passing, which is really sensical, but not from our from our physical perspective. So that whole thing with dementia is is really, you know, an interesting thing and it’s interesting that mediums can actually tap into those people a lot of times Yes. And talk to them and their and their whole, their whole but they’re just not connected with the body anymore.

Martha Hunt Handler 48:49
Yeah, I walked into his room one day when he was still in the hospital and he said, Oh, you just missed your mother. I my mother had passed like 10 years before that sounds like oh my god, this is so cool. You know? Yeah, definitely. God He goes, Yeah, I don’t see her anymore. And then he said, but your brother and his friends were here like all night so I’m really tired and I knew my brother hadn’t been there. So I was like, asking my brother if he had become a born again Christian, I guess he was with his group the night before and they had been praying for my father.

Brian Smith 49:17
Oh, wow,

Martha Hunt Handler 49:18
very cool. Wow, that Yeah,

Brian Smith 49:20
wow. That’s That’s incredible. And that’s that’s the perspective that we can we can have and we open up our minds to it because I was gonna say maybe your brother was there in the astral or something. But yeah, yeah. Once once we get untethered from our body that your father was untethered, so he was able to visit these different realms. That’s Wow, it’s amazing. Martha, it’s been really great. Getting to know you and to hear about winner of the wolf. It sounds like an awesome book, I think for I think for adults and for young adults. Where can people find out more about you and we’re going to get the bar.

Martha Hunt Handler 49:55
So my website is Martha hunt handler.com I recently someone I added hunts because someone told me in Estonia the word hut means wolf.

Okay, so basically a wolf handler, which is what I do.

Wow. Yeah. So very cool.

Brian Smith 50:13
So and your book I assume is available anywhere, anywhere. And it’s winter of the wolf and it’s available now. Today’s Friday, July 10 2020. Just came out. Martha again, it’s been it’s really been great getting to know you and to find out more about your story and and just hopefully encourage people that are listening to have a different understanding a broader understanding of what life was really all about.

Martha Hunt Handler 50:37
Yes, thank you. It was so great friend really got love meeting you too.

Brian Smith 50:41
Yeah, you have a good afternoon. You too.

Unknown Speaker 50:43
Bye bye.

Unknown Speaker 50:46
All right, let me stop

Transcribed by https://otter.ai