What a fascinating conversation with a most interesting man. Pierre shared wisdom he has gleaned from an incredible life. It was an honor to be in his presence. In this interview, we focus on his latest book. But, there is a lot more to him than this book.

Can you imagine what it would feel like to never feel any resentment for any wrong done to you? To respond with full awareness of all situations rather than react from your gut? What freedom that would entail! Well, this is just one of the gifts the practice of blessing from the heart, sending out focused love energy, will do for you. This book, from the bestselling author of The Gentle Art of Blessing, will help you learn to bless all situations and people as you go through the day and add overwhelming joy and presence to your existence.

About the Author

A true world citizen, Pierre Pradervand has labored a great deal of his life for social justice, living in or visiting 40 countries on every continent. From his Geneva home, Pierre is now active as a writer, speaker, and workshop facilitator, helping people to live simpler, yet richer, more contented lives. His workshops provide personal development tools that empower attendees to strengthen their internal anchors and advance on their spiritual path. Pierre is also an independent celebrant for weddings, burials, and other events.


ℹ️ https://www.johnhuntpublishing.com/o-books/our-books/365-blessings-heal-myself-and-world




Brian Smith 0:15
Close your eyes and imagine what are the things in life that causes the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we’ve been buried, but what if like a seed we’ve been planted and having been planted, who grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes, open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is grief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. Hey everybody, this is Brian back with another episode of grief to growth and today I’ve got with me peer pressure event, I should have asked you how to pronounce your name before we get started.

Pierre 1:09
That’s perfect Brian

Brian Smith 1:11
So I’ve got with me PR predator grant van. Pr is a fascinating man who’s lived a adventure filled life I would say I’m going to read a short bio Peter or Pierre and then we’re going to talk about his latest book. So here is a true world citizens labored a great deal of his life for social justice, living in or visiting 40 countries on every continent. He now listened to he in Geneva, Switzerland is active as a writer, speaker and workshop facilitator, helping people to live simpler yet richer, more content lives. His workshops provide personal development tools that empower attendees to strike to their internal anchors, and to advance your spiritual path. He’s also an independent celebrant for weddings, burials and other events. And I want to introduce him by reading this short little clip here says can you imagine what it feels like to never feel any resentment for any wrongs done to you to respond with full awareness of all situations, rather than react from your gut. With freedom that would entail Well, this is just one of the gifts of the practice of blessing from the heart, sending out focus, love energy, for what will what it will do for you. This book that we’re going to talk about today, 365 blessings to heal myself in the world will help you go for from it’s from bestselling author of the gentle art of blessing. We help you learn to bless all situations and people as you go through the day and had overwhelming joy and presence to your existence. So that sounds like a great subject to talk about today, Peter, and I want to welcome you to grief to growth.

Pierre 2:41
Thank you so so much, Brian. It’s such a treat for me. Really, I mean it from the heart. Could be shit speaking on in depth issues with people who are really listening. Yeah, well, I

Brian Smith 2:55
really appreciate you being here. And I read the book. And it’s it’s fantastic. And I want to talk about that. First one to give the audience a sense of who you are. I know you’ve lived you said in 40 countries in every continent. How did that come about?

Pierre 3:07
Well, I let’s say I’ve lived and traveled in 40 countries. I haven’t lived in all of them.

Brian Smith 3:13
Right? Right. Right.

Pierre 3:14
I was. My father was minister of the Swiss church during the war in London. And I was a few weeks old when they returned to London, and spent my whole the whole war in London, we were bombed out twice. And I’m always eternally grateful to my parents because they gave me the bait. The most precious gift in my life. Perfect bilingualism English French. I always spoke English with my mother, French with my dad. And, and that was that’s been so precious in my life. Then we came back to Switzerland in 1948. And when I was when I finished my high school, that that’s around 1920 in Switzerland, I did a year of social work in the slums of the port city MRC in southern France. And there were many African immigrants in that city. And that suddenly opened my eyes and my heart to Africa. And I returned home, did my studies, first the two years in theology that we really wasn’t my cup of tea. And I moved over to Sociology, which I really enjoyed very much studying. And then I I did one year of work in the United Nations, and they offered me Ryan, a life contract that was done in the 1960s a life on track with a salary at least 330 times. The average Geneva salary at least two months vacation instead of two weeks, a year. Special shops and no taxes, international civil servants in Geneva, don’t pay taxes. Wow. And it was extremely rare, extremely rare that Swiss citizens because we were not yet a member of the United Nations were hired by the UN, but they offered me two un organizations have had me a job. And I thought pair are you born to be comfortable little bourgeois with a nice little car, a nice little job, a nice little family. And I don’t think I’ve come on earth for that. And a one off to Algeria, without even a letter of introduction, or hiring me. My own one I’ve met the Minister of labor at the at the United Nations. He said, Oh, come come, we need people like you because independence, the Nigerians, that 1 million French people who are running the country, left the country in a few months. And they were desperate for people with, you know, university level training. And so I arrived at the Ministry of Labor in the morning, and they hired me on the spot. And I had three and a half difficult, but very exciting years in Algeria. And then I went to prepare my doctorate, University of Michigan, which was very I was among two of the best years in my whole life. And, and then I went back to Africa, French speaking, tropical Africa with the American friends Service Committee. This is a wonderful Quaker organization. And then I worked. Later, I started the first grassroots Family Education magazine as a whole of French speaking Africa. And I had no experience of brutalism whatsoever. And I took as editor of the magazine, one of the first Senegalese feminists who had no experience of journalism, my people would have said that this is completely crazy.

In three years, it was the best selling international magazine infringed speaking of infringed speaking Africa. Wow, we were the first magazine in the whole of Africa, whole of Africa, to speak of female circumcision. That was 19 7075. So I had very exciting diamond. And I came back in the 80s, to Europe and work for NGOs, and started my own workshops, in 92. And since 92, I’ve been running my own workshops, doing a lot of volunteering, and especially one of the very important experiences in my life has been corresponding with an afro American death row inmate in Texas, who you been 35 years in prison, in jail for crime we know he never committed, he was on death row. And we started corresponding, and his letters was so amazing. I published devices, I thought, you know, PA, you called keep these letters, yourself. They belong to the Cultural Heritage of Humanity. And I have an extraordinary publisher, who accepted to publish a book that was totally different from everything they ever published, published. And book was great success. And we put a bank address at the end, people started sending money, we were able to hire a good lawyer and get him out of the throat because as you know, if you’re poor and black in Texas, your chances of having any kind of justice are really a minute, is first lawyer pointed by that state was a drunkard who never visited him before the trial. We used to fall asleep in the courtroom, and nobody even woke up and, and was constantly drunk. Yeah. And so we got a good lawyer, rebuffed death row, but he’s still in prison. But he’s doing extraordinary work is transformed. Prison of 2200 inmates is completely transforming the culture. That prison while in my publishers just does me dry. The third book on Rajma Gauss, there is a website. May I give the website? absolutely sure. www dot Roger McCown mc gwen.org. Okay, www. Roger. Gun falling.org. Great. Well, this book is transforming lives in the whole world. I just received a letter from Thailand, from one of the worst prisons in the world, the bank when Central Prison in Thailand, which is a list you can see on on YouTube, there’s a BBC film, one hour film on bank, Wang Central Prison. And this place is absolute horror. And this guy’s telling me that he found this book. I don’t know how it got there in the prison, and this book transformed his life now. So Roger is a soul brother for me.

Brian Smith 11:13
Yeah. Well, you’ve clearly lived a life of service and Franklin self sacrifice. Where do you think that came from this this desire to serve?

Pierre 11:24
Well, it’s a good question. I guess somehow, somewhere. My, my family upbringing was an important element my my parents live to serve. And unconsciously I must have absorbed something that from from then from them, and just my, my vision of life, I’m, you know, I studied theology. And then I was for many years a member of a religious movement, and I left all of that. And now I, I even called in a book on spirituality, a representative of lay spirituality. But I’ve always felt very, very close to the Quakers. I feel they are extraordinary people. And as you know, in the history of the United States, we’ve always had Quakers right in the forefront of all movements of social improvement. They are just wonderful, wonderful people. So I’ve been very inspired also by George Fox and the example of the Quakers.

Brian Smith 12:37
So one of the things that I got from your publicist said, you know, to talk with you about, what’s this, this, this idea of imagining what it’s like to never feel any resentment for any wrongs done to you. So what is what is the key to that? What’s the key to being able to get to that point?

Pierre 12:52
Well, it’s evidently not happens, something happens from one day to another. Maybe I can explain to you, Brian, how I discovered this practice of blessing. Yes, please. This is the key. I was working for a group of nongovernmental organizations in Switzerland when I came back from Africa. And I’d been asked to start a new program on education on third world issues for school. There was nothing like this similar in the schools in the 80s in Switzerland, and I threw myself with great gusto. In this work, I even had to count bed in my office when I missed the last train, and I wanted to do a roving exhibit for schools on world hunger. And, and these organizations said, Well, sorry, we don’t have we don’t have the money in our budget, you have to do without it. And Brian, I put out of my own savings, the equivalent today of at least $25,000. Ladies roving exhibit schools, which worked very, very well. It was applauded by my even my sponsors. And but there was one guy in these organizations who was an atheist, a militant atheist. He did my guts, and he decided he wanted to get rid of me. And I was a member at the same time of an American campaign called The Hunger Project, the aim of which was to end hunger in the world. And I would believe that organizations fighting hunger in Africa would be in alignment with this is a well, I think they were a bit leftist than as this campaign came from the States. they forbid me to speak about Did in schools, which I found crazy, but they were my bosses. So I made but I, I continued using the slogan of the campaign, the end of hunger by the year 2000. Because while I was in Africa, I was one of the founding members of what became the largest grass roots, peasant organization of the whole continent, Eastern style. And one of the organization’s one of the member organizations in Africa, had as its slogan, the end of hunger by the year 2000, which was a slogan of this American campaign. And one day this, this, this guy who hated my guts, convened a meeting of the four organizations. And they said, We forbid you to say that we can end hunger by the year 2000. Because this American hunger organization Say yes, say that. These are, these are organizations fighting hunger, right? They’re bidding me out do I don’t know cheap anti Americanism, or I don’t know what I think that was an excuse to get me out of. So they, they told me either you stop saying this slogan, or you quit your word. And they skin between themselves saying knowing Pierre’s integrity, he will quit his job and trample on his personal conviction while I did. But I so I quit my job immediately. But I developed such resentment against these people, especially this guy who organized this whole scheme to get rid of me, right. And Brian, it was Ed me up, literally eating my guts. You know, resentment is horrible. It’s like a rat, eating your entrails. It’s awful. And I used to wake up in the morning, I was thinking of this, going to the supermarket, doing the housework, whatever traveling, this was, became an obsession. And there is this resentment. And I knew I was harming myself. And I was praying, meditating, doing all the right things. Nothing happened. And it was awful. It lasted week after week, month after month. One morning reading the Sermon on the Mount. The statement, bless those who curse you.

But of course, it’s so simple. You just have to bless them. And I started there. And then I started blessing these people, in their health in their family life in their joy in their abundance in every conceivable manner. Firstly, it was in the head to obey what I believe the revealed commandment. But it soon moved down to the heart because blessing is 100% heart energy. Then a few weeks later, suddenly, while walking in street, I started pressing people in the street. And it became so joyful. I bless people at the supermarket. Walking around the city. When I used to take trains, I took trains a lot. I used to travel a whole crane in both ways, one tip to the other, to be sure not to miss every any person. Every single. And I asked studied having amazing experiences with this practice of blessing. And one day I was preparing a talk I’d been asked to give a conference at an International Youth meeting in Zurich. And the theme of my talk was to be healing the word. And I was writing my talk and suddenly I received a gust of inspiration as never before or since in my life. I was literally like someone under dictation. I received under dictation a one page text on the gentle outer blessing which is the beginning of my book. And the foundation of my foundation is practice. And I started sharing it with people in my letters. People saying it heals, it heals, it heals. And it started receiving lessons from all around the world. And people who were you know, applying this, this exercise.

Brian Smith 19:55

Pierre 19:56
That’s probably the most wonderful thing. 10 years later, I met at a meeting in Luzon, this gentleman who caused me to quit my job, okay, this guy who hated my guts, you know. And I met him at that meeting. And Brian, I felt like giving him a huge hug and embracing it, we had dinner together. And it was so joyful. And for days, my heart was singing. While it took me years to understand what has happened. I believe that it’s his personal belief that before coming on Earth, he and I made what one calls a soul contract. That is, we each fixed out the roles we would play in our relationship, so as to bless the world. Ultimately, this terrible trial was transformed into a blessing, which became the book, which has been translated now in quite a few languages. And including Arabic and Russian, and others, and has blessed the world. Wow. Wow. That was, yeah, what

Brian Smith 21:28
a What a beautiful story. I really appreciate you sharing that. So for people that aren’t familiar, what does it mean to bless someone? What is that? What

Pierre 21:37
does that even mean? So to me, it means sending heart based love energy to them. just sending focused energy. So I bless people in their health in the joy. He’s in the family relations, in anything that I think can help when I don’t have a car. So I travel a lot by public transport. When I see someone who’s depressed, I bless them in their peace, their joy, etc. Always the reverse of the material. Image, if I see a guy who’s drunkard and knows, wobbling around on the street, are blessed him is upright, this is self control, is maturity. God is like that. If I see a beggar in the street as a blessing in his abundance, always the opposite of the material image facing you. Well, of course, if I see a young couple, just getting married, I bless them in their happiness. There’s nothing, nothing to reverse there are just less than happiness and joy in life together.

Brian Smith 22:59
So some people are going to say, How am I supposed to bless someone who’s done something wrong to me? You know, I have this human thing, I feel resentment that I want to hold on to. So what’s How do I how do I get over that?

Unknown Speaker 23:13

Pierre 23:15
one thing is to realize that any negative feeling you feel is harming you before it’s harming anybody. Any negative feeling harms our immune system. And I’ve got to understand this. So clearly, Ryan, that I can really say that i i can see so clearly that every human being with Mr. Trump, when he was in white house or murder was being judged. is at his highest level of consciousness? Or was at the time he did his Is this the misdemeanor? And in this way, Brian, I, I do not judge anyone at all. My life is totally free of judging others. Because I feel so deeply that everyone is at their highest level of consciousness. And it is so free. So free to understand. Yeah, I think I don’t feel judged by others, if I don’t judge others. Well, the judgments of others don’t touch me.

Brian Smith 24:45
Yeah, and I think that’s a very important point that I want to reiterate because I have I’ve come to that belief as well. And I know that’s hard for some people to understand. When we look at another person’s actions, to say they’re doing the best that they They can do. And that’s what it means to not judge that person is to say that they’re but we looked at them and said, well, they can’t be doing the best they can do because clearly what they’re doing is wrong. So that’s, that’s the the temptation A lot of people have. And that’s, that’s I think that’s the hurdle to get over. But this non judgment thing, and I know, especially as you mentioned you to kind of briefly touch on our charge political environment, you know, especially here in the US, where everything is controversial here. Everything is political. And when we look at each other, and we think they’re trying to destroy our country, that’s what that’s what both sides think about each other.

Pierre 25:40
Yes, absolutely. Well, we must be agents of a higher level of consciousness, wherever we go.

Brian Smith 25:53
Now, the thing is, and so you mentioned something earlier, when you were speaking, and you mentioned the word practice, which I think is very important. It’s word that I use all the time. But the clients that I work with, I think things need to be a practice. And the thing I love about your book, 365 blessings, tell myself in the world, there just happened to be 365 days in the year. And we could go through this. And it’s a great way to start this practice. But sometimes people are like, they don’t how do I get started with this? And so you’ve kind of given us a framework. Exactly,

Pierre 26:23

Brian Smith 26:26
So and I said, Look through the book, and I love this, because it’s easy. And I know there’s a Buddhist practice, a blessing people unconditionally will certainly meditate and bless first, you know, people that are that we like, and then people that were kind of neutral bat, and then eventually out the people that we don’t like. And that can be a hard thing to do. But again, what I like about your book is you’ve got it all in there. You’ve got like, we’re gonna bless political leaders. We’re gonna bless terrorists, we’re gonna bless and their victory and you tell us how to bless them, right? Not just have good feelings for terrorists. But how do I do that?

Pierre 27:03
Yes, exactly. Yes, people need to know how you see. You can’t just tell people, oh, bless, you must show them how to bless.

Brian Smith 27:16
Can you give us some examples of how we do that? So how, for example, like how would I bless a terrorist? Well,

Pierre 27:25
I would first bless him in, I believe that every single person on earth as a divine spark, in that, that even that terrorist has a divine spark. So I would bless him in his hidden divinity. I was blessing bless him in his his thirst for justice. He has a vision of justice, which might maybe very distorted, but it is as vision. And I, you know, I don’t have a fixed guideline. I follow my inspiration. But I first try and develop a feeling of love and compassion. The person or the situation. I am. blessing, that’s the most important, right, is the feeling. Yeah.

Brian Smith 28:28
Yeah. And I like what you said, seeing that divine spark in each person and trying to take their perspective. Okay, so the terrorist, we think, oh, they’re terrorists, they’re murderers. But as you said, they’re seeking justice. It’s it doesn’t align with our sense of seeking justice. But just trying to understand that allows us to be able to let go of that judgment, at least a little bit.

Pierre 28:52
Exactly. 11 years in Muslim countries. And I’ve seen since situations that, especially in relation to women, that revolted me completely. But I had to go beyond that. Because that still judging you know, yeah. I must know that. That’s their vision today. Of what is right. I hope they are move forward. One day, but today, that is the vision must not condemn them, or judge them. I must embrace them.

Brian Smith 29:30
Yeah. Now, would you say this idea of blessing people you mentioned that came to you because of Jesus words in the Sermon on the Mount. And some people say, Well, I’m not a Christian, so I don’t have to follow that. So is this is this a religious thing? Or is this a spiritual thing, this idea of blessing,

Pierre 29:46
this idea, but I think it’s great, you can find it, the whole world over. Some of you you noticed in my book, there are many Native American blessings. These were high profoundly spiritual people without being religious in the modern sense of the word. But there’s there’s a Native American spirituality which is very profound, very profound.

Brian Smith 30:16
Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I think we can sometimes get caught up in religion so what’s your opinion about religion? So what’s gonna happen the religions you think as mankind develops

Announcer 30:28
back to grief to growth in just a few seconds? Did you know that Brian is an author and a life coach, if you’re grieving or know someone who is grieving his book, grief to growth is a best selling easy to read book that might help you or someone you know, people work with Brian as a life coach to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers at WWW dot grief to growth.com www dot g ri e f, the number two, gr o w th comm or text growth gr o w t h 231996. If you’d like to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com slash grief to growth www.patreon.com slash g ri e f the number two gr o w th to make a financial contribution. And now back to grief to growth.

Pierre 31:28
You know, Brian, this is so interesting. I just the minute before I switched on to talk to you, I finished my monthly newsletter, which goes out to a bit more than 3000 people on theme is this the end of religion just admitted before Wow. Well, I believe that religions in their structured, organized form will probably disappear. The one exception could be Judaism, because Judaism is attached to a nation to ethnic practices. It’s totally different from any other religion in the world. Now, but apart from today’s I think it is my belief that other religions in their traditional form, specially Christianity will disappear. And that new forms of spirituality will appear. I think that today I’m much more spiritual than I was when I was quotes, very religious. And when I belong to a church, I couldn’t dream of going into church today. But I do believe in you. For instance, I created a group in Geneva, which is totally non denominational non religious called its we call it a blessing and gratitude group where we just bless people and situations. We meet every two weeks. Now we are doing through internet, of course, because of this COVID thing. Normally we gather together physically. And that’s one of the new forms of spirituality that is popping up all around the world. People are inventing what speaks to them? Now? You know what the church is died 1000 years ago should be done? What speaks to them today?

Brian Smith 33:44
Yeah, I think we are seeing a lot more of that. And you know, in the past, we would lead in kind of religious silos, you know, I think about you, if you were a Christian, you might never meet a Muslim. If you lived in nine states, you might never meet a Hindu. But when we get familiar with other people, and we learn their practices and realize they’re all basically the same, they’re all saying the same things. Then I look at religion, myself as kind of training wheels. It’s something that we we kind of need to bring us you know, to a certain level, but then we’ll get to the point we can take the training wheels off and then we can put to practice spirituality.

Pierre 34:21
Exactly. Totally agree.

Brian Smith 34:25
So, um, I was gonna ask you about your view of the universe. How is the universe run? Is it is it chance? Is there are there laws?

Pierre 34:36
That question? I love that question, because it enables me to share the most powerful, important experience in my whole life. Awesome. Einstein asked the question, is the universe friendly? And my experience for me, is my reply. To Einstein’s question I was, you know, for many years I practiced performance spiritual to a spiritual healing was very important central to the practice. And so I didn’t run off to doctors when I had a problem, but he was working it out spiritually, and it worked well, for many years. I no longer do that now, but it worked well, for many years. And I was in Africa. At a meeting of this large peasant organization in the early 90s, this was, and the last day I called isn’t very well known the last two, three days of meetings. At the beginning, it’s not serious. If it’s not treated, if it’s not healed, it can become serious, but it’s just a nuisance, we have to run the hole down to the toilet. And we finished our meeting real early, and we had the last afternoon free. So I spent my whole afternoon with my books and mantras and affirmations, working on this problem, and I believe that it disappeared. But then I went out for dinner with an African friend and an African restaurant. And the next morning going to the airport, it started all over again. And on the plane, I was in my with my books with my mantras, my affirmations and repeating statements. And I was sitting next to a young unaccompanied boy about 10 years old. With his little you know, little label on his chest with his parents phone address, know that. And the stewardess taking care of him, was so loving, so sweet. You would have thought she was his mother. She constantly game the T, check that he was okay if he needed something. And one moment you can talk to him, as she spoke in such a kind manner. Suddenly, I felt for this woman, a cosmic gratitude. I can’t say otherwise. My whole life, my own mind was just totally filled with gratitude. And suddenly, I had an out of body experience. I was no longer in the plane, I was no longer in time. I was in this space. With as though there was only the most incredible, unbelievable sense of love. And it was entirely on the level of feeling bright. On the hop was not in some moments, purebred when the discipline wasn’t there, the ego wasn’t there, I had no sense of existing, as a personal as a person as a male Swiss. All I was conscious, with this infinite love. And as an American spiritual right of last century said, Mary, big ready, the divine understanding reigns is all. And there was there is no other consciousness. But there was no other conscious consciousness of love. I don’t know how long this lasted maybe two, three minutes or 30 minutes. Because I was out of town. Suddenly, I came back to my seat. I was sitting next to the little boy, I felt something moving mind trails isn’t disappeared in a few seconds. But above all, I’d had the most important vision in my life. And, Brian, this vision is today, the heart of my spirituality, the totality of my spiritual belief. My spirituality has become so simple. I don’t have to read books learn to auras or laws or bad drizzle, Bible statements. I just have to

feel his love and sharing. Loving more has become the only thing important for me. And it is all my spirituality.

Brian Smith 39:43
Wow. Wow. Well, you know, the people in the ears tell us that everything is love. It’s all it’s all one for all one consciousness people that have gotten to the other side people who, quote died and they tell us that and then you know physicists are starting to tell us now there’s just everything is one, everything is connected. And the consciousness is actually fundamental. And so and then we then we hear that God’s another word for love. So you put all that together. And really what it comes down to is everything’s about love. And it but it sounds too simple to people.

Pierre 40:21
Well, maybe just do simple to them. I don’t mind. I can only experience speak from my deep experience. I know that for me, this is the path I wish to track. Other. Yeah.

Brian Smith 40:41
Another thing you touched upon there, I think that was really important. You know, you talked, we were talking about blessing, right? We’re talking, we’re talking about blessing ourselves. Because the other thing I failed to mention in the book, there’s blessings for everybody else. But there are also a lot of blessings for ourselves. Because we have to love ourselves as well. And, you know, one of the things I found is a key is to have gratitude. And sometimes people struggle with how do I have gratitude? I was telling you, before we started the show, most of my listeners are in grief. We’ve we’ve lost a child or a spouse or a brother or sister or whatever. So sometimes people have trouble saying how can I have gratitude in my life is so terrible. So the thing about your your book and your in your practice is is a way of bringing us out of that?

Pierre 41:28
Yes. Bye, bye. sending love to others. You pull yourself out of your own grief. You stop saying staying centered on your pain. And you send love and good wishes, good feelings to others, that helps you get over your own pain.

Brian Smith 41:56
Yeah, I think that’s I think that’s really, really key really important. And I can see as you were talking, as you’ve developed this practice of blessing others how it’s helped, you know, with your with your gratitude, just you seem so you’re so full of joy and gratitude about life. Because you’re seeing is always connected. Yes, yes.

Pierre 42:17
I mean, I just you know, I, I live in a nice little house, three rooms, and a little garden. And we’re having a very nice weather now not lunch, I just lunch, my lunch every day is just raw vegetables. And I’m sitting in my chair, and just feeling such incredible gratitude. But also, you see, because I know what misery is. Five years in that car, I lived literally, between two shanty towns, not a mile away, maybe 200 yards away, on both sides, no develop, close contact some of the narratives. And I’ve traveled, as you said, you know, to over 40 countries around the world. And I have also seen such profound misery. And so I know how incredibly blessed I am. And I’m aware of it night. Give thanks every day.

Brian Smith 43:26
Yeah, he talks about something early. We were talking about blessing if you don’t focus so much on the material. And I hear people talk about abundance. You know, we we want to live in abundance. And I heard something just a few days ago that really resonated with me. status. The idea of abundance is the ability to do what you want to do when you want to do it.

Pierre 43:50
Everyone has his definition of abundance. abundance is an inner state of deep contentment. I had a large fortune ride. I’ve given away absolutely everything I’ve checked kept just a little minimum extra. I mean, I mean a little just in case of a real emergency. I have enough to live decently but I have you know I don’t take long trips around the world I don’t have a car. I don’t even have TV. I live extremely in say frugally. But I’m happy. Yeah. No, I when I see people who have these mentions and three cars and go and spend their vacation on Bali, polluting the world environment and all that they’re not any happier, maybe much less because they’re afraid of losing their fortune. don’t have anything to lose. So no no life can be. Life is what we make right? It’s not a question of shows. Life is what we choose to make.

Brian Smith 45:08
So we say life is what we make it, you mean choosing our perspective on what happens to us? Or do you mean something even beyond

Pierre 45:15
our perspective? On what happens to us, we may not choose at all what happens to us. But we can choose our perspective. Right? I think I mentioned the beginning of the talk, I do remember that this letter I received from Thailand, from Bank, one Central Prison. This is the one of the most or rendus prisons in the world, right. And this young prisoner, who says he’s in there for crime he never committed, which I’m ready to believe him. They have no lawyers, or whatever, you know, and, and he read this book by my friend, Roger magallon, completely changed his perspective on life. He thought, Well, if Roger can find deep happiness on death row, well, I can change my attitude towards this imprisonment.

Brian Smith 46:19
Yeah, and I think that’s really important. You know, we’ve read books like Victor Frankel’s book, Man’s Search for Meaning. And we’ll say, if he could be happy, then you know that maybe I can be happy in my circumstance. I have a friend I interviewed for the program. Her name is Terry Dillion young woman, who in her mid 30s, was struck by Lou Gehrig’s disease. And so she’s she’s paralyzed. Now she can’t even speak, she communicates with her eyes through a computer. But you read, you know, somebody like that, that can find peace and joy in their circumstance. And so we can we can choose, you know, I, I tell people, you know, it’s an old analogy, but it works to glass half full or glass half empty, which are we going to focus on? Or we’re going to focus what we don’t have? Or are we going to focus on what we do have?

Pierre 47:07
Right? And this is such a simple metaphor, the glass half full or half empty? And yet, it’s so fundamental to all of life. Every second, Brian, we are choosing which half of the glass we want to see every second, right? If some people manage to see half a glass half full, when they’re in the extremes of hell, and I mean, the extremes of hell. Or maybe we can see that in circumstances, which for most of the people listening to this program, a little less dire.

Brian Smith 47:51
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that’s, and I said, that’s when I, when I was when I read your book, when I looked through the book, I was like, I love the fact because you give us a practical way of doing this for people that are because we as human beings, it’s his natural thing to focus on what’s wrong. It’s part of our evolutionary process, right? We, we focus on the problem so we can fix the problem so we can solve the problem. That’s, that’s, that’s, that’s part of our nature. So we should not feel guilty or feel bad about that. But it doesn’t mean we have to stay in it. We can we can learn to to rise above that to raise our perspective.

Pierre 48:25
Yeah. Exactly. By the way, I want to tell you, I’m so enjoying our exchange, Brian.

Brian Smith 48:34
I am I am also, I like I said, for me, I’m an engineer by background, and and i bike I coach people. So my thing is, don’t just tell someone, you have to do this thing, right? Again, someone, especially someone that’s grieving, or someone’s going through a hard circumstance, and we’re all going through hard circumstances, we all have things we can look at and say I wish this was different. But what again, a practical approach is like, how do I do this? So, you know, to tell someone here, here’s do these things for 365 days, actually, if you do it for 30 days, I believe it’ll change your life. I think if you got up and did a short blessing, because people are intimidated by meditations, you know, I don’t know how to pray, you know, stuff like that. Just do a short thing for 30 days in a row.

Pierre 49:21
And they don’t have to compose the blessing. They just have to read it. Right. 100

Brian Smith 49:27
pound, right. Yeah, read it and feel it, read it and take it to heart and, and try to understand that person’s perspective. And I was reading the one about placing the terrorist earlier before we get on the interview. And I think that’s so profound, because we tend to see things from our own point of view. Of course, that’s all we got, right? So when I see you doing something that I wouldn’t do, I said, well, you must have bad motives, you know, whether it’s whether you’re my political enemy or whether you’re physically trying to hurt me or a terrorist, and just to make that shift for a little While and to say what if I were in that person’s shoes? And And what if they truly are divine? And what if they are doing the best that they can do? Because we give ourselves the benefit of the doubt we can justify anything that we do. I did this because now I was justified in it.

Unknown Speaker 50:19

Brian Smith 50:20
Yeah. So I, I think the the book and your and your practice and your your life is something I’m really I’m I think I’m really glad to share this with my with my listeners, because I think it’s so simple yet it’s so profound. And it’s a shift that I think a lot of us struggle with. And I love I love the fact that you’ve given us an example, by the way you’ve lived your life. I mean, you’re This is not just words, this is what you do. And then you’ve given us practical tips. How do we do it?

Pierre 50:55

Brian Smith 50:56
So how can people find out more about you more about your work and what you do? Well, they

Pierre 51:01
just go on internet. There’s such a lot of stuff on internet on videos on YouTube and things like that. So I guess that’s it. But the best thing is the website on blessing because my professional website is in French. Very helpful.

Brian Smith 51:21
Not to my hat is there

Pierre 51:24
but then there’s also the website on Roger McCown the day I gave the address of Milan.

Brian Smith 51:29
Yeah, and I’ll put that in the show notes. But I know your your your damage professional website, you talk about general heart a blessing, right. Yeah. General heart gentle hearted blessing that org

Pierre 51:39
up, up.

Brian Smith 51:41
I’ll just I’m sorry, I wrote it down rock gentle art of blessing. Yeah, I apologize. Thanks for correcting me. so gentle art of blessing.org. That’s what we can find about about your your practice. Exactly. And the book is 365 blessings to heal myself and the world. It’s a, I highly recommend it to people. If you really want to get into this practice and you need a framework. You know, you need something and just try it for 30 days now. And then I think you’ll keep going.

Pierre 52:09
I would suggest the people first go to my website on blitzing. And on the homepage, there’s an extraordinary, a fabulous video by our webmaster Jane young. Hmm. called the gentle art of blessing. And that video has been seen by hundreds of 1000s of people on YouTube, all around the world. Wow. Thank you, we’re really, really speak to people, please. The video itself is so beautifully made. Combination of pictures of music and text is just very special.

Brian Smith 52:48
Yeah, I know, again, a lot of people that are that are in, in grief, we sometimes harbor resentment for whoever caused our grief. We feel like you know, my life is never going to get any better. My life is so so bad. And we need like a ladder, we need a ladder with rungs to kind of dig out of that or to climb out of this the state that we’re in. And I think that’s what your work offers to people.

Pierre 53:16
I think my in French, my best selling book is on no longer a victim. And as backfat is one of the best selling books in my publishes, it sold 10s and 10s of 1000s of copies. And I think this is one of the three main challenges of life. So many people feel victim. As long as they feel victim, they will stay stuck in what I call victim itis. And only they can get themselves out of that.

Brian Smith 53:54
Well, you know that and that brings us back to another point I want to make because when you were telling your story about how you discovered this site, this this art of blessing, you know, the guy that situation that caused it that could be viewed as a terrible thing that happened to you, you know, you were forced out of a job that you loved. And so we find though, as we’ve get some agent ourselves and as we as we get some distance from these bad things that happen, this is something good comes out of pretty much everything that happens to us. There’s always there’s always some blessing that we can find. And if we look for it, and that’s what you did you found, I guess maybe the biggest blessing of your life.

Pierre 54:32
Exactly. And you know, I really believe that I repeat every day to myself sometimes, three, four times a day that all things work to good. All things work together, to the good of them that love life. All things work towards output if we love life. Everything, they cannot be an absolutely negative situation in our life. If we decide we’re not going to accept it is absolutely negative. We are the ones who decide. Always.

Brian Smith 55:18
Yes, yes. I think that that is an excellent, excellent point, that it’s something that again, it’s not necessarily human nature, but we have to keep reinforcing that in ourselves and keep looking for those blessings. Exactly. Yeah. appear I want to thank you very much for your time today. It’s been a real pleasure to meet you. And to talk about your your life and your book and your work. It’s it’s all fascinating and such a blessing to the world.

Pierre 55:49
Right, it was my blessing. And I thank you for inviting me to this program, which I know is helping many people in deeply.

Brian Smith 56:01
Thanks, have a great rest of your day.

Pierre 56:03
great blessing on your program, and all the listeners by the heart. Lighten up. Goodbye, Brian.

Brian Smith 56:13
Thank you. That’s it for another episode of grief to growth. I sure hope you got something out of it. Please stay in contact with me by reaching out at www dot grief to growth calm. That’s grief the number two growth.com or you can text the word growth 231996 that’s simply text growth gr o wt h 231996. So if you’re watching this on YouTube, please make sure you subscribe. So hit the subscribe button and then hit the little bell here. And it’ll notify you when I have new content. Always please share the information if you enjoy it. That helps me to get more views and to get the message out to more people. Thanks a lot and have a wonderful day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

I greatly enjoyed my talk with Petia, an amazing energetic force. While Petia works primarily with women, I personally got a lot out of our conversation. Petia Kolibova is a women’s transformation coach who helps women who have been pushed down and been playing it small due to toxic relationships or unhealed childhood trauma to create a life that is true to them and their soul purpose.

Her mission is to help women who are on the path to healing from past wounds move through their limiting beliefs and internal blocks so they can finally do what they want to do, what feels good to them, serve other women in a powerful way online.

Petia pairs feminine flow with strategic planning to give entrepreneurs immense clarity + exact steps to transition from side-hustler to CEO.

If she is not interviewing on her podcast Unapologetically Abundant, working out, or reading, you will find her in nature disconnecting from the world, connecting to herself.

You can find Petia at: ℹ️ https://www.petiakolibova.com

Katie Beecher, MS, LPC is a Licensed Professional Counselor and Medical and Emotional Intuitive with over thirty years of experience.

She is featured in Goop, Kourtney Kardashian’s website Poosh and Miranda Kerr’s Kora Organics Blog.

Katie has a unique way of working with clients, creating a detailed, individualized, physical, emotional, and spiritual report and symbolic painting, before ever seeing them, talking with them, or seeing a photograph, using only their name and age.

Soul Inspired Healing is Katie’s new book which will be published in the Spring of 2021. It is about what she does as a Medical Intuitive, her own healing from an eating disorder, Lyme disease, and other serious illnesses, and helping others heal and connect to their intuition using information from her guides and using Jungian psychology.

Website: www.katiebeecher.com

Facebook page: www.facebook.com/beechermedicalintuitive

Instagram: www.instagram.com/katiebeecher_medical_intuitive

R. Scott Malone is a long-time acupuncturist, martial artist, and meditation practitioner. He is especially interested and focused on the relationships between the energetics of the body, the heart, and consciousness.
Scott and I discussed a broad range of topics from energy healing, to our true eternal nature, to the role of religion in our lives.
You can find out more about Scott at:


Brian Smith 0:00
Close your eyes and imagine what are the things in life that causes the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we’ve been buried, but what if, like a seed we’ve been planted, and having been planted, to grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes, open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is grief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. Hey everybody, this is Brian back with another episode of free for growth. And today I’ve got with me are SCOTT MALONE, and I’m going to read a very short bio for Scott and then we’re going to get started. Scott is a longtime acupuncturist, a martial artist and a meditation practitioner. I am especially interested in focus on the relationships between the energetics of the body, the heart and the consciousness. And to give you more information where you can find out about Scott, you for acupuncture and go to infinite pillar calm, it’s infinite. P i ll AR calm for energetic table work and consulting, go to esoteric consultant calm. And we’ll cover those again at the end of the show. But with that, I want to introduce Scott Malone

R Scott Malone 1:27
Hello, hello.

Brian Smith 1:28
Hey, Scott,

thanks for being here today.

R Scott Malone 1:30
Yeah, appreciate you having me up.

Brian Smith 1:32
Yeah, it’s great to meet you. Fascinating guy, we met through a mutual friend of ours, Jake, somebody Edie who recommended that I speak with you. And we had a short conversation and I think you’ll be really interested, are just be interested in hearing your story and how you got into energetic work and what your thoughts are between the body heart and mind connection? Yeah. So how did you get into this work?

R Scott Malone 1:58
Well, I have to say, so I’ve been a, I’ve been a martial artist forever. Both my parents are chiropractors. And so there was this, there’s a sense of healing in the family. So I would see somebody come into the clinic bent over and then over a series of, of days, I would see them, you know, better, you know, or weeks, I would see them standing up. And so I really, I really thought there was something to that there was something really interesting about about that. And when I realized, you know, my father, I would never have the last word if I was a chiropractor. So I thought, you know, I ended up going into acupuncture. And it was interesting, from a martial arts perspective, all the points that you would strike are essentially the points that you use to heal. So it’s like, it’s how you approach anything you can approach it with with mal intent or with good intent. But really what happened is, after I got back from India, my teacher, my teacher said, so what are you going to do now that you’re back from India, you’ve had this this trip? And I said, Well, you know, it’s thinking about, you know, there was a, it was a Sufi retreat for a month in India. And it went to a lot of Buddhist places, like we ended up at the mahabodhi temple. And so there was a lot of Tibetan influence, along with the speaking with the Sufi, because pure light was very much engaged with the Tibetans. And so when I got back, I thought, well, I said, You know, I think I may go to college and get a degree and teach Tibetan studies. And my teacher was Kurt, Ben wilts. He’s got a number of books. He’s since passed. But he said, because he’d been in the Scholastic world, and, and it had been pretty rough. And he said, Have you ever thought of acupuncture? And it was like, somebody hit me in the stomach with a bag of bricks. And, uh, probably about two weeks later, I was enrolled. So it just felt like that was something that you were called to. It was just yeah, it was just boom, it all of a sudden I was like, Oh, my God. That’s it. So

Brian Smith 4:20
and this was around college age this time?

R Scott Malone 4:24
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So probably, let’s see, I went to India in 94. Hmm. So maybe a little past college age. Okay. Okay. So yeah. And that was actually one of the things that I remember. It was the last day of the retreat, and everybody had gathered together and they were kind of, you know, being together one last time and I was just broken, the retreat broke me. And I was on top of this Tibetan monastery. In Nepal, the coupon monastery Everybody is together singing and I just remember sitting on top of the roof. And I just remember telling God, I was like, you either have to tell me what to do, or you have to take me out, because I just I can’t stand it anymore. And it started raining on me. Oh, okay. All right, I get it. I’m just going inside that. But then when I got back, you know, and I felt like it was a rejection at the time. But then when I got back, my, my teacher said, you know, what are you going to do? Have you considered acupuncture? And it was it and it all came together. So Well, yeah.

Brian Smith 5:39
So how do you train for acupuncture? Where do you go to do that?

R Scott Malone 5:43
So there’s schools everywhere. I think here, I’m in Colorado now. So I think here, there’s, I think, two in Boulder and one in Denver. Um, so essentially, it’s, um, I think now they’ve changed it. I did two years of prerequisites. And then I did all my time squished into three years, but I think now they’re moving towards a four and four. model. Okay. So it’s a it’s pretty extensive. And somebody somebody was saying, Yeah, it’s a little bit like going to med school and Chinese. Yeah, yeah. I don’t think that it’s probably as far as the hard sciences go, it’s a lot more on the theory, and then the instruction understanding of the points and, and how the, the whole body works in a in a holistic way. Mm hmm.

Brian Smith 6:31
So it’s interesting, you said, you know, opening, you said, there’s, there’s a relationship between the points that you strike in martial arts and the points that you, I guess, use in acupuncture,

R Scott Malone 6:41
right. So there’s, um, there. So basically, if you have the energetic system, and it depends on what level you’re sort of fighting it. So if you’re, if you’re, you know, boxing is doing enough damage, not somebody out. But if you look at some of the Eastern arts, once you start working with the energetic bodies, then you can use that energetic body to attack another energetic body. Hmm. So we have these meridians and lines running through us of the energy. And there’s there’s a study called democ. And in some Denmark, you have certain times of day where the energy is in different meridians. And you can attack different organs like that. But if you have enough energy, when you strike somebody you’re looking at affecting their energetic system it as much or more than just a physical, a physical attack. So there’s, there’s a point right here, it’s a pericardium, six empiric cardium, six in the body is used to open the chest, it helps with anxiety, it helps with stress, it can also the pericardium protects the heart. So people who have past traumas locked into the heart of the pericardium will take those hits, so that the heart is protected, it’s also known as the heart protector. And so when you activate the pericardium channel, one of the things you can do is release some of those past traumas that are that are locked into the body. But if you strike it, then it actually causes your whole meridian system to light up. So that the next strikes that you do on somebody in a in an energetic way, cause more damage. So

Brian Smith 8:26
yeah, explain to me the relationship between the different bodies. There’s, you mentioned the physical and the energetic, are there other bodies and how do they interrelate?

R Scott Malone 8:37
So I look at, I look at essentially the three the three centers the lower donchian, which is the second chakra, below the navel, right. And that’s, that’s, so we’ll talk about just the three from the Dallas perspective, but I fully recognize the rest from the Buddhist and the Hindu perspective as well. So that’s going to be your physical body. And so when you’re doing Qigong, the whole idea is to revitalize and build and strengthen the physical body and the energetic body, so that you work optimally as a human being, from a Buddhist perspective, so the Buddhists and the Taoist have the biggest influence and cheekbone with the Confucian, Qigong being kind of a distant third. So from the Buddhist perspective, you want to increase longevity, so that you have a longer chance to attain enlightenment. Hmm, so that’s some of the impetus for that, that that she goes on. Then you move into the heart center, and then you have other hotta So that’s the second the middle donchian and this is a good you know, obviously the emotional center and so you have your your emotional body, and then up in the upper Center at the Eisner or the Third Eye Center. Then you’re dealing more with the mud. So those are the three main bodies. But there’s also, to be honest, if you look at lead better, and the Thea theosophist, there’s the causal body and the spiritual body, and I don’t know that it ends, just your awareness of the bodies expands out, you know, there’s probably a cosmic body that’s connected, but you’d have to have a cosmic consciousness to tune into it or something.

Brian Smith 10:25
Yeah, but it’s from a Western perspective, we think of our bodies like I have a body. Yeah, a body. Yeah, and what you’re talking about an expansion of that, that I have multiple bodies, you mentioned the physical body and the energy body. So that’s a, that’s going to be a new concept of things, a lot of people,

R Scott Malone 10:41
you know, and the thing is, it’s one thing, it’s one body, it’s just the spectrum. And if you look at, if you look at, say energy, moving at a slower rate to a finer rate, you know, x rays to matter, you know, high energy, vibration, lower energy, vibration, but it’s all still the same thing, and you can’t separate it out. And I think sometimes people have this idea of, you know, they’re gonna work with one in, in opposition to another or solely without the other, and it just doesn’t work that way. I think one of the fascinating things about acupuncture, when you find somebody that works with it, a lot of acupuncture is, um, you know, it’s very functional medicine, my shoulder hurts, can you fix my frozen shoulder, and that’s all they want. And that’s fine. You know, irregular cycles, migraines, all of the the standard stuff that humans go through. But there’s a deeper level of acupuncture when you look at five element theory, and the five elements each have emotions attached to them. So if you have say, fire, it’s joy, lack of joy. And then if you have Earth, it’s um, nourishing the lack of being nourished worry. And then metal is grief, which would be say, large intestine and lung. And that’s the inability to grieve or the inability to stop grieving. And then you have metal water is fear. And then wood, lung and liver, gallbladder is anger, resentment, frustration, unfulfilled desire. So all of these home two different organ systems fire is heart and small intestine, earth, the stomach, spleen, pancreas. Let’s see water is kidney, kidney, bladder. So what you have an issue physiologically, sometimes it is caused by an emotional problem in the emotional body. So if you have, you know, somebody that lost somebody, then you might have grief. But we have a normal timespan for immediate, immediate grief for like the bright, shining, horrible grief. But after a certain time, it should sort of smooth out to a certain extent, anger is the same way you should be angry, and then it should pass. But when those things get stuck, when those emotions get stuck, then they can have a physiological impact. So you can have somebody who’s grieving very hard, and they can’t, they can’t reconcile, they can’t get over it. And what will happen is eventually it will start to weaken their lungs and their large intestine. Because the emotion of grief is the lungs and letting go is the large intestine. Hmm. By the same token, you could have somebody who is a longtime smoker, or they lived in a really they lived in like Old Delhi, and, or Beijing, and they’re constantly breathing in pollution. Um, ultimately, what can happen is they can realize that they’re, they’re sad all the time. They’re grieving all the time. Or they can’t let any little thing go. So it’s a it’s a two way street. And the The interesting thing about, you know, acupuncture and working with the energetic body is that it doesn’t really matter which came first. The body, the emotions will release.

Brian Smith 14:09
Yeah, that’s really interesting that you said that because you said it’s kind of like there’s that look, I can operate on a feedback loop. So yeah, either one can affect the other. You know, I think about grief obviously, my shows grief to growth, I deal with people in grief. So I’m glad that you said that. And I want to get back to how we can maybe use some of these techniques to help people grieve. But I also think about like depression we were so in the West are so caught up on like brain chemistry causing depression. Yeah. And I wonder if it can go both ways that our thoughts can cause our brain chemistry to change?

R Scott Malone 14:42
Yeah, I think absolutely. And in my, in my experience, that’s absolutely true. You can have people that are there and depression is one of those kind of catch all words who I always ask me what’s your flavor of depression? You know, because they’re the because that will kind of clue me in until what organs system that I that I need to work with you just scoot back a little bit. So yeah, I definitely think it does because the, you know, the energetic will affect the physiology. And if you look at the CI body, right, the the energetic system where all the meridians and the acupuncture points are, and that ci body is the interface between the physical body, and then your higher awareness. And so, but it can go anywhere, anywhere from the spectrum when I was I trained a little bit with the Sufi is in a work called the Rafi lat work. And it’s part of the Sufi healing order. And they spoke about, you know, the the physical, energetic mental, emotional body, and then they talked about spiritual body. And they were saying essentially, that any anything any imbalance in any of those bodies, the buck stops at the physical body. Mm hmm. So eventually, if it goes on long enough, if you have a spiritual crisis, and it’s unresolved, you know, and like we were talking a little bit earlier about, you know, people feeling like God rejected them. Yeah, you know, if you have something like that, and it’s unresolved, eventually, it will hone down into the physical body, it may take 20 years, but eventually it will show up in the physical body, because how can it not it’s all one thing, it just, it’ll have to filter through, you know?

Brian Smith 16:28
Yeah, well, all these things is I’m understanding it there, we, we tend to like to want to separate them out. But they’re all part of us. Right? We’re and it’s kind of like, they’re, they’re just different aspects of who we are. And, again, I think in the West, we really focused on just what we can see and touch and feel, right, we said, this impacts this, this is the answer to everything, you know, so if you’ve got a problem, take a pill, and the pill will will solve your emotional problem. But you know, I think it’s again, I think it’s it goes both ways. So in the case of what you do with working with the energy body, that can actually impact the physical body, and that’s, that’s kind of new to a lot of people.

R Scott Malone 17:09
Yeah. And, and to be honest, I really do a lot more just straight, energetic work, versus using the needles. Hmm. So the needles work. I mean, the needles somebody asked me, you know, it’s funny, because people go, so does, I’ll tell them something, and, you know, majan Oh, yeah. And I do acupuncture, and they’ll say, does that really work? Am I and it always blows my mind. And so my response is essentially the same. And, and it’s, it’s essentially, you know, it’s a, it’s 500 years documented, but possibly as many as 5000 years, and people are still doing it, you know, trial error, refinement, repeat, you know, so. So, the, the Beatles actually work. Um, but there was somebody who was talking, I think, I was reading a book by Damon Mitchell, who writes great books on Dallas neigong. His book is called Dallas neigong, which is a, it’s sort of a primer from I don’t know anything about yin and yang to I’d like to do Qi Gong ne Gong, which and they Gong is a higher internal energetic practice. But he was saying, in one of his books that initially, what would happen when you wanted to be a healer is your teacher would give you energetic practices to do to see if you could feel the energy in your own body. And then he would ask you questions to see if you had realized and been able to sense the energy in your own body? And if you couldn’t, then you were out? Because how could you be trusted with somebody else’s energetic body? If you didn’t even feel you’re out? Mm hmm. So and so it’s a thought that essentially, needles came along. because there weren’t enough people who were tuned in energetically enough to do the work that some people needed that extra stimulation with a needle into the pump. Because you have to think about what did they do before they had the metallurgy to make needles or you know, that they use these things called Beyond stones, which are like, very thin, pointed stones, where they, they use stone, basically kind of stone needles, and there’s some question as to whether they actually penetrated or just use pressure. But I think after, you know, after years of meditation and doing internal work, and really kind of tuning into the energy, I had this thought of, well, why why would I light up, you know, one point with a needle when I could possibly light up the whole channel and just balanced the whole channel. Hmm. So if, if, if I’m doing acupuncture traditionally, then I look at my diagnosis, I look at the signs and symptoms and then I pick the acupressure I’m sure meridians for my my prescription my point prescription, and I pick according to my diagnosis, the medical prescription, that herbal prescription. And then we do all of that. And the way that I know that it’s working is if your symptoms change, right. So what I say is I’m putting these needles in and they’re going to balance your lung channel, they’re going to balance your your stomach channel. But I don’t really know until there’s a secondary response. And you tell me that something got better.

So when I plug in energetically, and typically what I’ll do is have somebody on the on the table, and I’ll plug into the bottoms of their feet or their ankles, I’ll feel the the energy move into the patient, and they will typically feel an energetic sensation, start at their feet, and then move up to the top of their head, arms, legs, everything in between. So once I get a general sense of the energy in the body, then if say they’re having trouble with anger and resentment, I’ll plug into the liver channel. And they will actually feel that line, go up the inside of the leg. And so my thought is, if you don’t feel it, it didn’t happen. So it has to be a visceral sensation. Or a lot of times PE patients will try to they’ll try to say what you want to hear. Oh, well, no, I think I feel it. I think it No, I think so. So if you say I think then that’s a no, when you actually feel it, you feel it. So then that meridian will come up. And then once the meridians on both sides show up, then I’ll ask that patient, does the left side feel equal to the right side? When they tell me Yes, then I know it’s balanced because it’s the patient’s perception. Hmm, it’s not just Well, the needle says so it must be. I actually did an experiment with that where I did the needle strike, I checked somebodies energetic system. I did the needles, and it was more balanced. But it was in no way fully balanced. And it wasn’t really balanced all the way to the organ. So when it when the two sides balanced, then the organ itself will light up. And it’s interesting people go, I never knew what my liver felt like before. So they’ll actually have a sense of their liver. And they’ll tell me something like, well, I’ll say, Well, what does it feel like? Well, it feels hot and heavy. Okay, well let me know when it feels lighter. And when it’s cooled down. And so when the patient tells me, okay, the it feels it feels good. It feels warm, it feels full. Does it does it everything feel balanced? Yes. Then I know. And the patient knows that it is bounce?

Brian Smith 22:41
Yeah. Yeah, it’s, yeah, it’s interesting, because we again, we think about acupuncture, we think about needles, right? And right. Again, I think people go, Well, does this work? Because we want to know, how does it work? How does sticking a needle, in my hand, affect my liver?

R Scott Malone 22:57

Brian Smith 22:58
what’s what’s the mechanism? You know, how is this working? But it’s all it’s all. But what I’m learning over the years that I’ve been, you know, study or just living studying life, is that that’s all energy. And, you know, it’s so I talk to people that do Reiki and people do, you know, all the, we call it all these different things, but it’s all manipulated. But we have again, we have this reliance here on on, I gotta do something physical. And I think it’s interesting, because when we take pills, when we trust the pills work, we have no idea how they really work most most of the medications we take, we do not know the mechanism. And I don’t think most people know this. They think that they study and they’re like, I’m going to produce this pill that’s going to react, we don’t we just tried things. Like take this and see what it does. Oh, yeah, that one works. So then we produce more of those.

R Scott Malone 23:47
Yeah. Or they’ll be using a drug for one thing, and they’ll go, Oh, well, we noticed this beneficial side effect that so we’re actually going to use it for the heart now instead of you know, like erectile dysfunction, or whatever it is, you know, yeah. Yes.

Brian Smith 23:59
So all these things, you know, so we have this now we question things like acupuncture, which you said, it’s like, well, people have been doing it for 1000s of years. And yeah, and and it’s they do it, they’ve been continuing to do it, because obviously, it does work.

R Scott Malone 24:15
Well, and I think it’s interesting, too. I hear this sometimes where, you know, like, I like Reddit, and I’m a victim of doom scrolling, you know, occasionally. So, um, and you’ll hear people say, Oh, well, it’s some crazy herbal medicine thing. And it always blows my mind because herbal medicine is the first medicine. It’s, it’s the oldest medicine and half of the things that that we have as medicine now came because somebody decided to isolate some part of an herbal plant that seemed to do this thing. Right. So I just think that’s I think it’s interesting in a from a Chinese TCM, traditional Chinese medicine perspective. All medicines are toxic to the liver just in varying degrees. Yeah, so to assert, to a certain extent, you have aspirin, which is relatively baby aspirin, which is relatively benign. But essentially, it’s still slightly toxic to the liver all the way up to chemo, which is amazingly toxic to the liver. And the reason is, is because they’re not natural substances, and the body doesn’t recognize them as food. So the body recognizes herbs as food. Now, it’s, it’s dangerous to take a bunch of herbs that you don’t really know what they do. You know, I don’t think, you know, watching dr. oz and saying I should take a whole bunch of this, you know, because, you know, it seems like a good idea. You know, and he would probably even even, you know, he would offer some sort of idea of dosage or something. But people in the West are sort of like, well, more is better is better. Yeah. It’s just not, it’s just not. Yeah, I

Brian Smith 25:53
remember I talked to someone about homeopathy. And yeah, micro micro micro doses of things that are quote, poisonous, but everything’s poisonous to certain extent we drink too much water, you’ll die. Yeah, but you. You take homeopathy and say, we’ll take this and then you’re gonna wait, I’m going to paint it and then or teacher and make it and we can’t do anything. I need more.

R Scott Malone 26:16
Right? Well, here’s the thing. If you don’t recognize the energetic body, then homeopathy is is quackery.

Brian Smith 26:24

R Scott Malone 26:25
But look at I actually was curious about homeopathy. And it’s a whole nother study that I just didn’t have the bandwidth to jump into. Although I have utilized it on occasion. But you look at how many people in India utilize homeopathy? How many people in Europe utilize homeopathy? There’s millions and millions of people worldwide that utilize homeopathy and is recognized by the government’s Yeah, you know, it’s just in the West. If it you know, if it didn’t come from Big Pharma? Well, then, you know, and and that’s a whole that’s a whole other thing, right? Big Pharma versus homeopathy versus herbal medicine, you know?

Brian Smith 27:06
Yeah, just to let people know, who might not know we’re talking about regardless thing about homeopathy, it’s taking a substance and using a very, very minute portion of it like you, you dilute it with water, like 10,000 times or something. And so it’s really more. So again, my, when someone was explaining to me, my Western mind was, well, that’s not enough to do anything. But it’s working on an energetic level more like, you know, what you’re talking about. And again, with, with the drugs that we take, that we put so much faith in,

R Scott Malone 27:33
we don’t know exactly how they work, either. So that’s often a chemical shotgun approach to something that needs a finer touch. Yeah, you know, we’ll do a broad spectrum, which means we’re doing a broad spectrum, because we’re hoping that somewhere in this, you know, will affect what we’re actually what we’re actually looking to fix. Yeah. And that’s why I think it’s interesting Chinese medicine. You never, you never diagnose herbs without a prescription without a diagnosis. If you look at migraines, or you look at headaches, there’s half a dozen different kinds of headaches, you know, if you, if you have it across the top here, you know, that’s, that’s a stomach headache. If it’s dull, your stomach is weak, if it’s dull, top, your liver is weak, if it’s pounding, and you have a typical migraine with photophobia, and all that, it’s a gallbladder headache. I mean, there’s so you can’t give the same, the same herbal formula for all headaches. And that’s why I think, you know, Chinese medicine, Chinese herbology. And, and a lot of Western or biology or biology practitioners, it’s very directed, because they understand the function of the herbs and how they affect the bottom.

Brian Smith 28:46
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

R Scott Malone 28:49
Go crazy, that stuff can’t work. And the other thing

Brian Smith 28:53
that that we talked about, you know, you went with acupuncture, for example, and this energy work that you do is, you know, you said that typical person might say, Well, my shoulder hurts, or I’m having headaches coming in for something physical, but it can be useful for much more than that. And what I want to get back to specifically you mentioned grief, you know, people that are going through grief. So how can, how can acupuncture help with somebody that’s dealing with grief.

R Scott Malone 29:17
So, so I’ve actually, I used to have tried to incorporate a lot of the sort of energetic stuff that’s a little on the Qigong spiritual side into my acupuncture practice. And so I’ve really decided recently to kind of split those into two different websites, like you mentioned, because I think a lot of people coming in for just a physiological issue. They don’t really and because they’re very sort of Western medically oriented, if I start talking to them about Qigong and energy, then they find someplace else to be. They just want a guy in a white coat to stick needles in them and then there is a thing you know, medic Western medical acupuncture, and it works So I tend to what I actually find is that when somebody comes in for a particular physical symptom, probably about half the time, that’s not really why they came in, there’s something deeper underlying it. And what it comes down to is does the person want to do they want to address that deeper issue. Because you know, things don’t happen in a vacuum. And it’s usually not just one thing, there’s usually a host of other things that are conspiring to cause this one symptom. So from an energetic perspective, from from a, from a straight needle acupuncture perspective, you can put needles into certain points to sort of activates that the lung and the large intestine for grief and for letting go. So from a straight mechanical acupuncture perspective, it actually it works really well you have, you know, right off the bone here, there’s a lung seven. And then there’s another point inside your arm, lung 10, these these things will help clear large intestine 11 will help you let go of things. So that does work. But what I’ve found is if I if I plug into the patient’s and basically the feel of the room changes, right and now we start talking about

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R Scott Malone 32:31
And in this deeper state of consciousness, often you will have people who have helpers, you know the Native American and talk about spirit helpers and gods. So in that state of consciousness that person’s helpers will sometimes show up. And sometimes their evidence to that person. I remember the first time I ran into this, I was actually in acupuncture school. And we had this big building. And they had the rooms were divided by sheets. So we had all these sheet bolts. And I had this woman can’t come in. And she I forget what she was being treated for. I think it was her knee or something. And so I put the needles in and the standard way is you put the needles in, you take a walk, you come back and check on the patient. And a lot of times acupuncturist will see, you know, two and three patients in the same out. So I took a walk, I come back and she’s got tears just streaming down her face. And I’m thinking, oh my god, I put something because I’m a student I put something in wrong. She’s been in pain. And she’s just been here crying for the last 1520 minutes. So I asked her I was like, what’s going on? Is everything okay? And she said, Well, she said, You know, my mom died. And she said, and we were angry at each other when she died. And so I was laying here and I had my mom, my eyes closed and my mom was floating over the top of me. And, and so I had this conversation with my mom and she said, you know, Honey, I’m not I’m not mad at you. You know, I love you How can I do anything but love you? And and she’s just they’re just streaming down her face? And she goes, Is that normal? Like, yeah, absolutely. It happens all the time. You know, but, but that was the first time I really got like, there’s something there’s something else to this beyond the bio physiological effect. I mean, they found that, you know, the meridian system actually lives in the fascia. So it’s an actual structure in the fascia that moves faster than the nervous system.

Brian Smith 34:45
There’s a lot of talk lately about the fascia. Yeah,

R Scott Malone 34:47
yeah. Well, so, so that was kind of, you know, I’ve always been, you know, interested in you know, meditation and meditative states and states of consciousness and awakening. And all of that, and I just started, you know, it started off, I was working on somebody, and I was I was, you know, trying to light up these channels and myself, and it was really difficult. And I thought, well, maybe I’ll just work on other people and get a better handle on it. And so I started lighting up the channels and other people. And then I started looking at, there’s a certain, there’s a certain level of balance that the body will will go to as a constitutional base. So their energetic body will and their physiological body will tend to balance first. But after a basic sense of pre flow and balance in the body occurs, that’s when things really start to get interesting. And that’s when people start to, they start to have experiences that are beyond, I’m here for my health. And sometimes I wait, you know, because I spend an hour, sometimes an hour and a half with a patient, you know, in a in a meditative state, and while they’re dropping into a meditative state, and then interesting, things will start to happen. And, you know, I have one patient and her father passed away. And I really felt his presence in the room. And she was really suffering because it was relatively recent. And so I just really, I just really sort of called him in as as much more as he was already there, whatever I could do to help his presence help her. And again, she had this, she had this sort of, and I think it was mostly unconscious, but some sort of communication with her father. And then it shifted. And it’s interesting, because sometimes I sometimes I have a sense of who’s in the room, and sometimes I don’t, but the most surprising one was, um, you know, I think we mentioned before I was telling you about, you know, the, the Baptist Church and how that kind of, I had an issue with that as a child, because they scared me. Um, so I’ve never really been terribly Christian oriented until I found Thomas Merton, and St. JOHN of the cross, and Teresa viola, and then that sort of shifted things

Brian Smith 37:16
up for a second talk about that, because we talked about that before we got on the air. So let people know about that. Because I think that’s a fascinating part of your background.

R Scott Malone 37:23
Okay, um, I’ll just finish this little bit, because it was so funny to me. So I’ve always been, you know, I’m like, a, I’d like the most Asian white guy you’ll ever meet, you know. So, um, so I’m working with this patient. And I’ve always been drawn to, you know, Tibetan Buddhism and the Hindu, you know, pantheon of faces of God and all of this. And I’m sitting here with this woman. And I have this sense that Jesus is there. And I was so shocked. In my mind, I went, Jesus Christ, what the hell are you doing here? And then I was like, oh, oh, I was like, I’m so sorry. I was, I was really just kind of shot. And, and he did the most Jesus thing. And he was like, Oh, no, no, it’s fine. I’m here for her. Not for you. I was like, Okay. Apologies. Carry on. So it’s just, it’s just interesting, because different, different folks show up for different people. It doesn’t have anything to do with me. So everybody has sort of helped along the way. Yeah. So um, oh, so we were talking about when my parents, my dad was a chiropractor. He ended up in this little town called senatobia, Mississippi, as a chiropractor, and nobody knew what that was. And so actually, one guy showed up in his office and said, Hey, I’d like you to come out. And it was a farming community. I’d like you to check over my cats. And he was like, What do you mean? He’s like, why here your cow cracker? So he was like, no, it’s so. So we had to do a lot of education. And one of the ways you integrate yourself into a town as you go to the church, and so he went to the Baptist Church. And once once we were old enough, then my older sister and I, he would take us to, to the church with him and mom. And so I remember this one day, they took me to where all the kids were. And they they had a picture of a boat. And there were two giraffes whose heads were sticking out. But then they had this long line of animals headed to the boat. And I remember as a kid thinking, there’s no way they’re all gonna fit. There’s just no way it’s not gonna happen. So I remember thinking, I wish I wish I could, you know, hear what the big people are talking about, you know, what are the adults talking about? So, they finished that story and they took us back in. And I remember this guy. His face was ready with Mississippians This summer, no air conditioning small one room, you know, Baptist Church. And this guy is red in the face and he’s yelling, and I’m sitting down. And he’s he starts talking about how we’re all sinners, and we’re all going to hell. And he started talking about a pool of fire where you, you burn but you never die. And as a kid, I remember thinking that the punishment didn’t justify the crime. Yeah. Because I was thinking, you know, I’ve stolen some cookies. I you know, and I knew it was wrong, but I, you know, they’re cookies, so I did it. But I didn’t think that it deserved burning eternally for it. So I asked my parents not to Don’t take me back because it scared me. And so my dad had always had some questions about religion. And so he, he went to the preacher for a private, you know, a private talk, and you start asking him questions, and he said, you know, well, you know, what happens? You know, if a child dies before, before it’s baptized, well, that baby goes to hell. It’s like, Alright, well, what about all the people in you know, in far countries that, that don’t either don’t know about Jesus or don’t, don’t worship? And he’s like, well, all those people are going to hell. And I think the, the straw that broke the camel’s back, as he said, you know, well, what, what about all the people who lived and died before Jesus? Well, all those people are burning forever in hell. And my dad asked him one other question, the guy just kicked him out. He said, Get out, you know, maybe if your faith was better, or something like that. And so my dad started looking, and, um, because he had questions that were not being not being answered. And so he came across a guy named Roy Eugene Davis and Roy Eugene Davis was Parma Honza, Yogananda was a primary chief disciple in the United States. And he was initiated into Kriya Yoga, by Roy Eugene Davis. And in Yogananda, his famous book Autobiography of a Yogi

was, it was huge, and that that book changed my life. And it was a very early reader. And I remember my dad leaving, and he was saying, you know, my books are in here, you know, you have your books in your room, but my books are in here. So don’t, you know, just don’t mess with my books. And, and so of course, I had to. And so I remember reading Autobiography of a Yogi. And I remember thinking, well, it’s just true. Like, I like as a kid, I remember thinking, this is this is somebody who is touched by God. This is somebody who God is working through. And, and so all the stories of the saints and the miracles in that book just absolutely deeply touched me. And, oddly enough, they didn’t scare the crap out of me in the process. So yeah, so I think that was kind of the that was kind of the take off point for me. And, you know, I was never, like my heroes, you know, my heroes, like the people that I looked up to, they ended up all being Hindu saints. You know, so I just, that was kind of my initial walk into the spiritual world was, you know, that sort of that just that Eastern path through India, and I remember, I was really frustrated. And I asked my dad, I said, you know, well, you know, these people are Christian. I was like, Well, what are what are we, huh? And my dad said, Well, you know, your mom and I believe this way. But you will figure it out. And you’ll note when you find it. At the time, I was just super, I thought, well, that’s a crappy answer. Like that’s, that’s the non answer. But it was actually, it was a huge, huge gift. Because I did I was I was never satisfied. So I just, I just kept looking that way. There’s a there’s a couple. I’m sorry. Go ahead.

Brian Smith 44:09
No, go ahead. Go on.

R Scott Malone 44:10
There was a couple of interesting stories that I wanted to tell about my dad in practice. And he said that there was this woman came into the clinic. And he said she was she was white as it goes. And he said, you know, Miss Jones, he said, I haven’t I haven’t seen you. And in months, he said, How are you doing? She said, Well, I’m fine. And he said, Well, you know, well, what brings you in? And she said, Well, you told me to come in. And he said, What do you mean? She said I was asleep in my bed. And I opened my eyes and I could see through you and you were standing at the foot of my bed. And you said that I needed to come in. And so here I am. So he had some interesting experience. periences like that he had another patient that we use this old mimeograph to make flyers and pass them out around the town. And he said that this patient came in and he said, So what brings you in? He’s like your damn flyers. And he’s like, well, was it someplace that wasn’t supposed to be? And he said, No, but I was walking down the street, the same flyer blew up into my face three times. So I looked at it, I was like, I guess I need to come see this guy. And then I think the one of the greatest stories I ever heard was, he had this this old farmer on his table. And he just lowered the table down. And he said, he heard he heard his death rattle. And his bowels evacuated. And he said, Nobody dies in my clinic. Hmm. And he said, I went over and I did a toggle recoil to the, to the Atlas. And he said, and when I did it right before it happened, he said, it felt like, like, all the hairs on my arm stood up, and there was a charge in the room. And when I dropped the adjustment on to his neck, all that energy was transferred any coughed. And, and and woke up. No. Wow. I just thought that was I just thought that was super, super interesting. That there is something there is a power beyond those that can work through us. Yeah.

Brian Smith 46:34
Yeah. You know, Scott, we remember you. We talked earlier, you were talking about your experience with the Baptist Church, and I was raised in the Pentecostal church. And

Unknown Speaker 46:42
so I had one second.

Brian Smith 46:45
So yeah, it’s got a little technical difficulty there. But we’re back. Um, yeah, you were talking about the Baptist Church and how it affected you. And I was I was raised in the Pentecostal church. And it was a similar experience. It’s, I think it’s interesting. Some people hear these stories about, you know, the burning in hell, and it doesn’t bother them. And they just they can accept it like that preacher. Right? It’s like, Oh, yeah, they’re in hell. Oh, they’re in hell there now. Yeah, I think most people don’t have any any concept of what it means to burn internally. Anybody just be so cavalier about the fact that anybody is burning internally and let alone the vast majority of humanity. Yeah. So for myself, I was kind of the same way as you and I actually said, my facebook profile. I’m like, I was, you know, born a Christian, because technically, I pretty much was no one’s born a Christian, but I was raised in the church. But then when I discovered Eastern religions, I was really drawn to the, I think, a lot of deep truth in that. But now, you know, it’s funny, I had a while I’m going to tell you the story no one has ever heard before. But I had a reading with a medium just last week. And my grandmother came through my grandmother was very religious and stuff. And she said, You’re doing great things. Everything is great. But don’t forget, like where you came from. Don’t forget the your foundation. And it’s funny to tell that story about Jesus because Jesus keeps coming up over and over again. And I interviewed a guy yesterday. Jewish guy, Orthodox Jew, had a near death experience at the ages three, and he said Jesus was there. And you hear when people say, oh, near death experiences, just wishful thinking. It’s just cultural conditioning. Well, this was right next to the last person he expected to see. Right, Jesus. So I think there’s something today when you so when you talked about earlier, you’re you’re in this room, and Jesus shows up. I mean, I think it’s pretty wild, because

R Scott Malone 48:35
I was so stunned. That’s why I was thinking, there’s something to this because I’m absolutely I’m absolutely stunned. Yeah, last thing I expected, I had another woman and she said that while she was on the table, Mary came to her and spoke to her. And I have to say, I had a, I had a pretty hard negative view of Christianity. Until when I was in acupuncture school. Um, there was a woman there and she was having her baby Christian. Christian baptized, I’m not sure. Um, so we went to this church and, and I know it wasn’t a Catholic Church, because the catholic church they in the Eastern Orthodox, they have the, the regalia is perfect, right? They look, it’s just awe inspiring, just to be there. And so it was some other form of a church and I remember the the guy came in and he had a stole on and in this really, like, terrible 70s green it said, holy, holy, holy on it. And I just remember thinking, this guy is like the used car salesman of of preachers. And so he gave, he gave a short talk, and then he brought the baby up. And so I was still thinking, you know, why am I wasting my Saturday here, and he brought the baby up. And there was A golden Chalice that had some oil in it. And this baby is not having it, this baby is done and been done. And it’s just writhing and he’s trying to wrestle this baby. And, and so I see him drop his two fingers into the oil. And then he looks up, and he holds his fingers up. I saw this clear beam of light come from above and attached to his fingers. And then when he touched it onto the baby’s forehead, the baby immediately settled. And the beam was now attached to the baby’s forehead. Hmm. I was thinking, Okay, maybe maybe it is everywhere. It just depends on the person. You know, it just depends on the preacher or the person and because I had already recognized that well, there are there awake people, their holy people in all traditions, but I’ve been really holding out because I had such a bad experience. And this one guy, you know, he changed all that. I was like, Okay, he’s, he’s to be able to do that. He’s tuned into the to the infinite. He’s tuned into the divine.

Brian Smith 51:13
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, in your right, we can sometimes because I think especially when we grew up in a tradition, we can see the flaws in it. And then we can become overly critical of Yeah, and I, you know, I’m coming back to you know, I quote the Bible to people all the time, because I was raised in that because there’s Yeah, there’s so much good stuff in the Bible, even there’s a lot of bad stuff, there’s, you know, there was it was corrupted, for sure is polluted. But there’s so much there’s so much good stuff in there. And, you know, we don’t we should not throw out the baby with the bathwater. And, and when we hear about these experiences with Jesus, you know, this guy, he had a beautiful quote in his book about how Jesus is basically the highest representation of what man can be. And he’s always with us of all time, and blah, blah, blah. And I’m like, this is what Christians should be saying about Jesus never taught this church, this from a guy who’s an Orthodox Jew.

R Scott Malone 52:08
Well, when you’re moved, you’re moved. And and it doesn’t and it at a certain point, if you’re so stubborn, that when something overwhelming presents itself to you, and you still turn your face away, then you’re just being an ass. You’re just being stubborn. Yeah. You know.

Brian Smith 52:25
So we, you know, we were talking earlier, before we got started, you you’d mentioned and I want you to tell this part about the guy that was using DMT, which is it’s a natural occurrence occurring substance that to develop people. Now, before we before you answer, it’s a naturally occurring substance. But if we take it kind of opens us up to other realms. So go ahead and tell us about that.

R Scott Malone 52:45
I want to find the guy’s name, it was something like

Unknown Speaker 52:51
he wrote a book,

R Scott Malone 52:55
field of diamonds, maybe he’s a, he’s a PhD. I forget his name. But his one of his book is something of diamonds like feel the diamonds or something like that. But essentially, he has a, he has a lot of things on YouTube and Vimeo, I wish I had his name for it. But he essentially did a number of tests a number of experiments with DMT, again, and again and again. And it was, I think it was DMT. And not LSD, but I could be mistaken. But he essentially did this over a number of years. And he just kept going farther and farther and deeper and deeper into the experience. And he had, um, beings that would show up and talk to him and guide him and show him what was coming and show him like the grand scheme of humanity over, you know, a million years or something like that. And he said that the last, he realized he just couldn’t do it anymore. Because the pain of leaving these rarefied realms, these heavenly realms, and coming back was just too great. And he just, he knew that he just, he just couldn’t do it anymore. If he, you know, expected to live the rest of his life.

Brian Smith 54:13
Yeah, is a human being. Yeah. That’s fascinating. You told me that because we were talking earlier, you said, you know, I’ve interviewed somebody near death experiences. And we talked to Yeah, some of the side effects of near death experience. And one of them is a lot of times people have trouble coming back and living on this planet. So you know, I wonder, you know, because people say Sometimes I wish I could have a near death experience. I wish I got a near death experience. And it’s difficult sometimes to integrate that spirit experience to come back and be just be human. Yeah. And then the thing I also wanted to connection with the draw because DMT is a plant medicine or LSD with the guy who may have been using something called Iosco. These plant medicines seem to open us up to other realms, but there are other ways to reach these things true to yester Meditation and through the experiences that you’ve had in this energetic thing. And my personal belief is the brain is a filter. And the brain has been evolved to just show us what’s important to show us a saber toothed Tiger that’s running at us. Yeah, and we don’t see everything that’s going on around us. But if we can somehow lower that filter a little bit through some of these experiences from these medicines, or energetic states, we can start to open up to these different realms

R Scott Malone 55:27
in the in the Dallas perspective, that the filter is actually the upper chakra, the pineal gland. And it’s interesting, and I’m just going to mention this, a lot of people, when they talk about the Third Eye Center, they kind of put it forward in their head here. But it’s actually if you if you go a little bit back, behind your ear lobe, diagonally, it’s actually on top of the spine, so straight up from your spine, up into the brain, when it moves forward towards the front, it hits the pituitary, and a lot of people try to access the third eye in the mid part of their brain, not necessarily the midbrain, but in the middle part of their brain. And that’s actually the pituitary. So they’re missing, it’s usually farther back, but it opens up to here. And then onto the sides. I’ve had patients say that when it opened, it felt like there was actually a whole band of eyes around. But the upper Don tn is, is seen as a filter. And it’s a filter of all the information from all the other rounds. So from the beings around us, there are some people I know a woman named storm, and she sees all the beings around somebody, and she’s done it ever since she was a kid. And, you know, she would be talking to, you know, her friends. And then she talked to a kid that she called bet neck Jimmy and people looked at her like she was crazy. And they were like, what? And she’s like, Who are you talking to? And they’re like, well, I’m talking to bet neck Jimmy, and, you know, come to find out he was a kid who had broken his neck in the area, you know, 40 years before so. So that’s a filter. And, and I think there’s a, there’s a real sort of caution with working with the filter and till the lower bodies are fully integrated till especially the heart center, and that lower energetic center, or fully integrated, hmm. Because we have a tendency to want to check out and away so people couldn’t could see. And to me, I think it’s probably the danger of really advanced VR or something where people want to live in these fantasy worlds, and not live here and now. But if you’re not really rooted and grounded, there can be a tendency to want to live in these, these sort of transcendent realms. And so that filter keeps you from seeing probably all the spirits that are around and the animal spirits and who knows what else from whatever, whatever realm is around you. And drugs can i think if i think if the ethnic ends are used in the proper context, I think if they’re used in a context, that’s, that’s culturally proven, for spiritual reason, I think that you have and typically, those things are run by a shaman and the medicine man in any tradition, whenever something is going on. He’s the guy that protects everybody and everybody’s experience. So so he’s the guy that sort of puts the shield up around everyone to make sure everyone’s okay. So if you, you know, find yourself, you know, with a bunch of pod and you decide to go out into the desert, and, you know, it might be okay, but it might blow those, those filters open. Right. And I think that’s where you have some people who were, you know, who were in institutions, because they blew those filters open and they and they couldn’t get back. Like, if you look at Alex gray, the guy that does all that, that really interesting art where the chakras and the body Have you seen him? Um, he you’d probably recognize the picture but he shows all the energetic bodies and and he said that he did so many hallucinogens, that he almost didn’t make it back in it, and it took him years to integrate from coming back. So I just think those are useful

Brian Smith 59:22
in the proper context. And there’s, there’s a parallel there to the near death experience, because they they get blown open, and they sometimes are really trouble integrating. And, you know, I every time I interview almost every time we interview a near death experience, when they mess up the electronics, we have a connection. They can’t we’re not they might wear the watch anymore, but they have to constantly buy cell phones and the computers are always messed up. Yeah. And a lot of sometimes they’re like, you know, like we were saying earlier, it’s like, I don’t know if I want to go through all the crap we have to go through here. Because I just want to I want to escape. So I think that my filter is there for a reason. And sometimes it’s maybe good peak, you know, get a little peek. So we can, you know, yeah, remember who we are and when we start to get to down and too much into this, but and I want to ask this to you because this is why I say to people all the time, I think as human beings, we have to, we have to be grounded. And we have to be able to connect with this however, and we’ve got to be balanced between the between those, we’ve got to figure out what I’m too far down in this. I get too caught up in the day to day, I need to be able to get to that higher perspective. Yeah, but I can’t live there.

R Scott Malone 1:00:29
You know, there’s a great story I love um, Rabbi David Cooper, he wrote a great book called God is a God as a verb. But he wrote another book about retreat called silence, simplicity and solitude. And he said that he was at Big Sur, somewhere out in California. And he he’s a, he’s all about retreat, 40 day retreats, because that’s, you know, it’s in the Torah. And so, so he goes out, and he has this 40 day retreat, and he’s praying every day, meditating every day. He packs up all this stuff, and he’s coming back down from the retreat, putt. And there’s all this sounds going on. There’s all this drumming going on. And so the rainbow people were having a thing down there. So he goes, and he just joins, he hasn’t seen another human being for 40 days. So he says he sits down next to the sky on this log around a fire and they start talking. And he said, they were talking about this amazingly deep, spiritual level. And he said, at a certain point, he realized that the only way this guy was able to speak to him this way was because he was on mescaline. And he said, it made him very sad, because he realized that his experience was he was integrated into his body, his experience was his own, and he would not lose that. But this guy in, you know, six or eight hours, was going to lose all touch with that. Yeah, so I think I think from a, this is something that that will speak directly to your question. So when I was first working on people, I was really interested in Kundalini in the chakras. And so all the energy going up going up. And I’ve actually, I’ve actually figured out a way energetically to basically clear the pathway. So that if a person is ready, that will happen. unimpaired, right, so people run into trouble, when that Kundalini lets go if they have something stuck here or here in their head, and the energy bangs up against it, and and then there’s a burning, oftentimes, they’re short circuiting that happens. So if you clear that pathway out, then when the Kundalini ignites of its own volition, then it’s, then it’s a straight, a straight shot out. So when I was working with this, I found the seven chakras in the body. And then I also use a couple of in the Sufi tradition, there are three heart chakras. So there’s the one in the center, the one on the right is the spiritual longing. The one on the left is physical longing and love. And there are basically aspects of the same the same center. So So when I’m working with this, I was wondering will, what about up above, so I had a person whose crown opened up, and then they felt themselves rise up above their head to another place. And so there was another chakra or donchian above the body. And so what I found in doing this was I went up for shoppers above the body. And people tend to have a oftentimes a similar experience. At the fourth center above the body, there’s a people experience, the color, gold, and some sort of beautiful their ideal natural setting. And I had one guy who was a Christian who said that that was where Jesus spoke to him.

And so I was thinking about these these chakras up above the body. And then it occurred to me I was like, well, this seems very imbalanced, like why would there be chakras above the body and not below the body? And so I started, I started to I had one friend of mine who’s just recently passed Brian earnest, who helped me a real psychonaut, you really had a facility for the states of consciousness. And we basically went up for and then we went through the chakras to the root, and then we went down below. And so what I’ve ultimately found is seven centers above the body. And I wonder about this, like, Is there a seven the number is there? 12. Is there 100? Is there an infinite number? I think what’s happening is I’m recognizing in a way that I can understand. So it doesn’t mean that it’s true across the board that there are seven and people get hung up. There might be an infinite number. But at seven, it seemed to interface with infinity, whatever that means. And so when somebody goes into that seven center up above Oftentimes they have an experience. And then there’s a cascade of energy that pours down through the body. And once that cascade starts, it never stops. And then when it hits the root, then it moves down, and it will move down seven. And then somebody will have an experience down below. And then there’s another cascade of energy that pours up through the descending cascade. So you have the infinite below, pouring up through the body, and the infinite above, pouring down through the body. And I realized that they’re, they’re the same thing. And it basically becomes a pillar that moves in both directions from from every place. And I call that the infinite pillar. Hmm, interesting. Yeah. And after a certain point, what happens is those energies converge into the heart. And then what happens is, they connect out into the world. And so if you just have this, I’m always I’m always transcendence, then you have nothing to do with the world. If you’re very much in the body, and you’re very imminent, and you’re really just interested in the physical world and all that, then nothing comes out into the world, what we’re here to do is an offer to the world. So when we have that rooted balance into the earth, we are here, you know, get over it. And believe it we are here. But we’re also, we’re also in tune with this, this infinite above us as well, then we can actually ground more of that, to move out into the world in the Chinese, they say tn Ren de Heaven, man and earth. And what it means in a pithy way is man walks between heaven and earth. Yeah. But in a deeper way, what it means is, are a part of our function is to be conduits for the heavenly cheat to come down into the earth. When y’all reaches its apex, it turns into yen, and for the earthly CHEA to rise into the habits. When yen reaches its Nadir, it rises to its opposite. And what I found is, once it once that’s really set, and people have this really connection between heaven and earth, that often and just about every time it will converge in the heart, and they will have a sense of all of creation. Hmm. And it’s and it’s from here, it’s a sense of love. And then people tend to start to get about doing whatever their work is.

Brian Smith 1:07:30
Yeah. That’s beautiful. That’s beautiful. I love the way that you said that. I think that’s, that’s so that’s, that’s what I’m trying to say, in a very, not quite as articulate away. But yeah, it’s that it’s that balance that we need to have an energy flow between the heavens and the earth. And we have to be both at the same time. That’s sometimes why it’s so difficult being a human is yes, it’s finding that balance and not getting so caught up in the day to day stuff, but also not trying to escape it, you know, and that, well, everything’s good. It doesn’t matter what I do. And I know people I know, quote, spiritual people that say, this domain drives me crazy. It’s like, No, you shouldn’t be involved in the day to day stuff. Don’t worry about it. It’s all good. You know? Yeah, whatever happens is supposed to happen. No, we’re not here for that.

R Scott Malone 1:08:15
Yeah. If you’re not engaged in the world, well, then then really, what do you what you have is a selfish spirituality. And I think Chung yong trumper wrote a great book called cutting through spiritual materialism. Yes, that like spirituality. That’s just for me, just to save me just to end my suffering. Ultimately, it’s been hijacked by your ego. Yeah, you find and to me, I think that the measure of a man is the depth of his heart.

Brian Smith 1:08:42
Yeah. And frankly, I think that’s one of the problems with the way some people when they can say everybody has interpreted Christianity, it’s all become an individual salvation. What can I What can I get me? And that’s what we need to have that balance between that and the eastern which is it’s about the collective. Yeah, what what can I do for the world? I’m part of the cheetah. Yeah, I’m part of the team. I’m here. I’m not here for me, I’m here for you. I’m here for everybody else. And we got to beat we have to do both. We got to take care of ourselves and take care of the world same time.

R Scott Malone 1:09:15
Oh, I said, a friend of mine said because it because I’ve always been like, I’m gonna do it by myself, you know, and, and we’re all standing on the shoulders of giants, you know, wave after wave of humanity is, you know, brought us to where we are and all the spiritual teachers who have you know, Britain things, but and so I was very much in that I’m gonna do it alone. And my my buddy goes, he goes, you know, if we were meant to do it alone, there wouldn’t be billions of us. It just be you. Like, fine, but I do I just find there’s so much help. There’s so much there’s so many people that are just selflessly giving. You know, that nobody would get anywhere with without all of us and I love Tick, not Han has this one. And I haven’t read a bunch of his but this one, this one little speech that he did always, always touch me. He’s like, I love to do the dishes. And so he’s like, a lot of people hate to do the dishes, but I love to do the dishes. And essentially, while he’s doing the dishes for food, he’s thinking about the people that made the dishes. And he’s thinking about the people that raised the food and the people that transported the food, and the people that stored the food and the people that put it on the shelves. And he’s thinking about the whole chain of humanity that brought him to this place doing the dishes. Yeah. You know, and I think that’s where in the West, we that, that Western individualism is, it’s the it’s that darkness, the shadow side of it is it’s all me and not us.

Brian Smith 1:10:50
Yeah, well, you know, and I love that the practice of doing the dishes or when you when you eat, you know, the think about where the food came from, and the truck driver that drove it. Now, it’s a bag that will make you humble real fast, and look around to pick up any object on your desk. And think about where it actually came from and what it took to bring that together, the person that created that, that put that out into the world. So it was a great practices. And I think, you know, I’m glad to see that people in the West are opening up to some of these ways of the East, I think we can learn quite a bit from it. And I think we’re as a society, we’re kind of sick because of our individualism.

R Scott Malone 1:11:27
Yeah, I think it’s true. I think it’s true. I mean, you look at, you know, people in Norway and something goes on, they’re like, well, we’re all Norwegian,

Unknown Speaker 1:11:35
you know, the

R Scott Malone 1:11:36
French, well, we’re all French. So, you know, and here, it’s like, oh, well, I’m an Irish American, and that’s an Asian American, and, you know, the Asian Americans need trouble, well, then that’s their problem. And it’s just not true. We’re all we’re all here. And it’s just the the overall, we’re all humans. And I just think that any tradition, any tradition that advocates, you know, that advocates violence, and a tradition that advocates you turning away from somebody else, you know, it’s it’s not really a real tradition to me, you know, I don’t know, that sort of thing. Just the the constant in America, the constant barrage of violence, you know, I just don’t I just don’t understand it. Like, if you’re gonna be violent, be violent, but don’t equate it to a religion. Because, you know, it’s, there’s no, you know, all religions say the same thing. They all have that golden thread. It’s all the same thing. Yeah, you know, it and that same thing is not violence. It’s the it’s love. Yeah,

Brian Smith 1:12:42
you know, it’s we’re basically all one. What, Scott, I want to thank you for watching, it’s been really, really enjoyable. Anything you want to say, as we’re wrapping up?

R Scott Malone 1:12:55
No, I just, um, you know, I think I think, I think, a little bit of silence, I think, a little bit of stillness. And I think, you know, I actually just recently discovered the centering prayer from from the Catholics, and I absolutely love it. It’s essentially a non dual awareness, prayer to really help, you know, deepen that aspect of your heart. I think that anything that we want to do, you know, is is enhanced by, by deepening that by deepening this, this moral and physical compass in our body, if you’re too much in the body, come in, come into the heart, if we’re too much in the head, come down into the heart, but we need all of it.

Brian Smith 1:13:44
Right, right. Yeah, exactly. I want to tell people again, where they can reach you. So for acupuncture, it’s infinite pillar, calm, I N Si, Ni, PT E. pillar P. I ll AR and you described the pillar earlier beautifully. The Reggie did describe that. After energetic teamwork and consulting, it’s esoteric consultant calm, so you can reach out there.

R Scott Malone 1:14:07
And I do I do distance sessions. So the energetic stuff distance sessions as well. So people want that kind of work. There’s no distance when it comes to energy

Brian Smith 1:14:15
Hill. That’s cool.

R Scott Malone 1:14:16
Oh, it’s all it’s all here. I want to thank Jake again for introducing me. To you.

Brian Smith 1:14:22
Yeah. Well, I’ve been trying to get Jake on the show. So this is another shout out to Jake to come on. But, Jake cemal Yeah, he is a fantastic guy. And I think Jake for introducing us also. Yeah. All right, Scott, enjoy the rest of your day. All right. Thank you. I was gonna say that’s it for another episode of grief to growth. I sure hope you got something out of it. Please stay in contact with me by reaching out at www dot grief to growth calm. That’s grief the number two growth.com or you can text the word growth to 31996 at simply text growth. gr o wt h 231996. Since you’re watching this on YouTube, please make sure you subscribe. So hit the subscribe button and then hit the little bell here and it’ll notify you when I have new content. Always please share the information if you enjoy it that helps me to get more views and to get the message out to more people. Thanks a lot and have a wonderful day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Jake Cooper is a fascinating young man. He’s certainly wise beyond his years. After reading his book, Jake and I sat down for this interview to discuss his amazing experience at the age of 3 when he died and experienced Jesus (as an Orthodox Jew) and more!

Jacob Cooper is a Clinical Social Worker, Certified Reiki Master, and Certified Hypnotherapist who specializes in Past Life Regression Therapy, works privately with clients through online services. Inspired by his near-death experience and transformative encounters, he facilitates spiritual awareness and empowerment through life-changing seminars. Currently, he resides and practices in Long Island, NY. He is the author of “Life After Breath” published by Waterside Productions.

You can reach Jake at:   https://www.jacoblcooper.com



Brian Smith 0:00
Close your eyes and imagine what are the things in life that causes the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we’ve been buried, but what if, like a seed we’ve been planted and having been planted, to grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is grief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. here Hey everybody, this is Brian back with another episode of grief to growth. I’ve got with me today a very special young man. His name is Jacob Cooper. Jacob Cooper is a clinical social worker. He’s a certified Reiki Master and a certified hypnotherapist who specializes in past life regression therapy. He works privately with clients or online services. Inspired by his near death experience and transformative encounters you fill up facilitate spiritual awareness and empowerment through life changing seminars. Currently, Jacob resides and practices in Long Island, New York. He’s the author of life after breath, which is published by waterside productions. And just to let you know up front, if you do want to reach Jacob, his website is Jacob L. Cooper calm is Jacob j AC ob l as in Lee Cooper calm. And with that I want to welcome Jay Cooper to Greek to growth.

Unknown Speaker 1:33
Thank you so much for having me on as an honor guest, Brian, I’m a big fan of your work. Thank you.

Brian Smith 1:39
No, thanks. I appreciate that. I’m Jake. I’ve read several narratives and the stories I’ve had several people on the podcast who have had near death experiences. One of the ways that you’re unique, I usually ask people, when you tell your story, start, you know, wherever you like, whether you want to start the experience or before the experience. But in your case, you were three years old when you had this experience, probably not a whole lot of life experience before that. But Tara listeners about this experience you had when you were three years old, or wherever you’d like to start?

Unknown Speaker 2:07
Absolutely. So I was three years old at the time, they didn’t know it. But I had an highly contagious upper respiratory virus called pertussis otherwise known as whooping cough, which left untreated for infants, children or even adults, in rare cases, for the adults, but mostly infancy and children could be fatal if left untreated, due to suffocation. And so I went to a park that September morning with family friends of mine, and at the time was my babysitter, I’m a sibling. And I was just going there to the park quick and the other day and just having a good time dude. As I was in the car, I began, you know, kind of noticing a bit of just kind of dizziness or noticing, you know, kind of like a different energy around me, which are described in the book as a vortex of energy around myself that just felt almost kind of like a vacuum for my inner being that I just pushed aside and ignored because, you know, my mind was telling me one thing, but you know, a part of me just wanted to go out there and have a good time. So I bury conventional wisdom that something profound that I couldn’t quite touch was on the horizon. And I just wanted to play in the playground. And so I got the card, you know, despite the nausea and, you know, some just dizziness that I was having. And I just ran as fast as I could up to the ladder onto a slide. And as I was climbing up each rung of the ladder of the slide, my breathing became more belaboured and more debilitated. through every step that I was climbing and became the nausea continued to grow. Then I got to the top of the slide, all of a sudden, I was really starting to slowly suffocate and I was getting very little air, you know, at the top of the ladder, and then slowly, that continual feeling of that vortex that I was seeing in the car, and that familiarity with it, began to race to to my inner being at some insane speed. And I followed it. And then slowly, I began noticing that my body was no longer, you know, working to the deprivation of oxygen, and every part of my body just began shutting down, like you take a power breaker and a home and just shut down each switch. And that was happening to my body, no one switch at the time, do the deprivation of oxygen. The last part that I recalled being aware of was being kind of outside my body and looking in at my brain and being able to notice different components of my brain and different functionings. And it’s as if the statement is true that we use a very small percentage of our brain in our lifetimes and certainly it’s very hard to understand the brain with the brain from my being three years old. You know, adults fully educated and stuff like That’s still are still finding new findings within the brain, you know, no matter what program of neuroscience or neurosurgery you are in. But,

Unknown Speaker 5:11
you know, I noticed that due to deprivation of oxygen, I felt the large cracking noise within my brain is if you take a plug out of a wall and just yank it out. And so I was unplugged from my body and my brain, and I just heard this large snap. But then after that, that vortex just began just to quickly suck my body and not my body, but my inner being down this insane tunnel, and I was going in an infinite rate in infinite speed, no going upwards and upwards and upwards, and there was no limitation with how high and how far I was soaring. And solely I just entered this, the best way I could describe it, as cliche as sound was this mystical light, this quite familiar light, you know, and I entered this place. And as I was entering this, I began to notice the right side of, you know, the part of my brain that I was looking at from a third person, out of body experience, and I began noticing this incredible mystical palace, I just almost had to shield myself away from because this palace is light was just so bright, and I could hear vibrations sounds, you know, choirs by it and angelic beings within it. And the most way I could describe it was just just an intimate connection, you know, what the all that ever is, and ever was. So it was, to me, just a connection with with the Creator, in a sense, and people have different experiences with the Creator, I think it’s, it’s all limiting. But I think, you know, when you when I was crossing over, it was just a very intimate connection to a high octave of the Creator, you know, presented to me in a way that I could comprehend and understand. And so, as I was connecting to this, there was an adjustment phase where I just it was just too profound and too powerful to look at where I just almost had to shield myself from this familiarity. Slowly, I began to notice awareness of not necessarily Jesus Christ, the man depicted in pictures or in the Bible that people practice or the the worldview of Christ, but more of the interconnectivity to the consciousness of Jesus or consciousness of Christ. And in a way, that’s very diametrically different than you know what other people say, because it’s an interconnectivity. And hopefully, we’ll get into more QA on that, your differentiating components, but, you know, when connecting to this, I was feeling as scared as I possibly could,

Unknown Speaker 7:47
you know, in just terms of leaving my body behind my life behind, and I just connected to this eternal wave of love, protection, guidance, support that was so beyond anything that I experienced, which isn’t enough to my culture or family, you know, just as high octave of unconditional love mysticism, and high understanding of, of the other side, and this high awareness. And after connecting to that, I began to notice my two spiritual guides, who are with me on the slide on the top of the slide, and literally, I felt a male and female guy at the time, I clearly knew who they were, what their names were. And I felt quite ashamed and embarrassed that I forgot their identity. It’s just, you know, Ziff, you just forgot to tie your shoes or you forgot your first name, it’s just, it was so close to your heart that I just forgot that they were with me this entire time, it just, I was just kind of had a blind spot on, you know, during those three years, and when I looked at them, they’re the most magnificent beings wasn’t, like clear, audient or clear, this was as if you’re a beautiful man, but looking at you, right, right here today, you know, it’s just right in front of me. But they’re right to the side of me and I was able to see them through my peripherals, and then slowly, they began to push my body through the wrong force down the slide. And my body was irresponsive my guides pushed me and slowly began to notice all the people that I went to the park with that day, no calling my name and I was just very responsive to them. And I was able to be aware of my what I like to call my spiritual body or my soul body and I was able to feel a form on the side of my body and I was able to see all the people who were calling my name but I felt almost kind of like a caged animal like I was trying to communicate to them in a know they could see me but they weren’t seeing the true me. I could hear them but they couldn’t hear me it was quite torturous at the time. I wanted to grab them and saying, I’m okay are you because I’m I’m you know, on the other side, I’m you know, and this is terrific. I never met more. I never felt more connected in this lifetime to my true essence then this moment, but they were calling my name and they weren’t responsive. And then in that moment, I was able to look at through my soul size or mind size, and their energetic bodies, or what we would call electromagnetic Auric fields, I was able to see a lot of components about the people that I went to the park that day that maybe I wasn’t privy to, or aware of, at the moment, such as some of their purposes and even past lives. And, you know, I was able to see them, not just from a face value human component from from a spiritual component, and I got a little bit more into that in life after breath with some of the specific use of it, then instantaneously, upon the looking, you know, at that, I was able to be privy to just hundreds and 1000s of angels that were hovering around my body and around the park. And these were not these big archangels, necessarily, these were more of the cherubim type of angels within the background, I was aware of those larger angels, but in front of me, floating, were these childlike angels, and they were kind of like brown and gold. And there were a lot less human in their characteristic in their effect than my spiritual guides, they were just, you know, just looking in the direction and it’s almost like I could see them, but they weren’t so connected to me personally, they were more connected to the macro kind of energy, not just not so much focused on the micro, you know, me. And so I was able to see them, and I was just so blown away. And, you know, even my human part is still carrying over us just like, geez, am I, you know, making this up is this real, and it was literally a filter of an endless sea of angels that was right in front of me, you know, and then a distance, I had awareness of the best term, I could describe it for listeners. And at the time, I didn’t have these terms, you know, this is kind of the terms that people have, you know, have to them, but to me terms are our ultimate superpower, and just in terms of understanding, but they don’t do justice or justification. And it’s full description, but I would say so family members came to me to distance, they slowly started coming to me and instantaneously, I knew who they were what they were about. And it’s it’s almost as if you feel an investment of your close core of people that know you transparently inside outside frontwards and backwards, and vice versa. And, you know, when they saw me and interacted with me, I felt quite embarrassed and wise, why use the word embarrassed is,

Unknown Speaker 12:34
you know, it’s almost as if you have a party, you’re going to the military, and you have this big bash for like a week or two, and you make all these promises, and everyone’s giving all these well wishes, and then within a week or two, you just come back and say now, you know, now for me or something like that. So, you know, that wasn’t their judgment of me that that was my own judgment. They love me for not what I did, but who I was. And that’s so much more diametrically different than, than this life as we know it for the most of us saying that, yeah, after seeing them, and my spiritual guides and connecting with the higher divine energy I was posed a question with, which is what I was going to do, within this particular path was I going to stay, you know, cross over on the other side, or, you know, as I continue to live, knows, you know, this lifetime, you know, his three year old Jake, obviously, you know, different from this experience. And then I got kind of Mike, my lawyer business hat on this at, well, if I do that, let’s make a deal. What is this lifetime going to be? What am I going to experience? Why am I here? what’s what’s the point of it, for me to turn you guys down, I better have a better counter that will outweigh it and have more capital than, than heaven if that’s possible. And so I was being shown a life review, as I would best describe it, not only this lifetime, but what stuck to me was mostly, you know, other past lifetimes. And it was if I was going on an overlay of the planet, and I was able to just go from culture, culture, country to country and have different, you know, glimpses and different filters of other lifetimes. And I was just spanning the globe, just traveling all different areas and timeframes, and an overlay of the earth. And the most recent lifetime that I had was when I had all these students that came to me and all these children that I just knew instantaneously, and they were given to me in flashing imagery. And I became quite emotional, just in terms of the memories that I had and just the relationship and the recollection of that last lifetime in which my committed suicide after feeling like my back was against the wall and there was no hope. And there was some type some type of teacher for children, a lot of kids depended on me, and I took my own life and that last carnation, from my back against the wall, I just felt very hopeless, very trapped, and there’s nothing There’s no forward, there’s no path, there was nothing to get past the pylons, it was just very kind of trapped. And then slowly, I was able to see flashing imagery of this lifetime that I would live in, then I was able to see a crowd of people that I was speaking to. And when I saw that lifetime, it wasn’t as if I was some guru, or some superior to the people or some teacher that was better than the people. But rather, I was just a part of the symphony of the message I was, there’s a part of everyone who’s there’s an interconnectedness, of uplifting, of energy of truth, that was from that particular imagery. And I said, at that time, you know, as as beautiful, as you know, Heaven is, you know, bring it into this lifetime, and living this path is bringing the hereafter into the year now, and

Unknown Speaker 15:57
I just turned it down, you know, solely I recognize no feature glimpses of the earth, and just in terms of a lot of the chaos and darkness and divisiveness. But But through that darkness, through the deprivation of it, I saw people coming into new form and changing, which hopefully, we’ll get into, because that’s, there’s a lot of universality behind that from an individual to collective, it’s all interconnected. And then slowly, that’s when everything power down. Once I made that decision to stay, then I got a degree of, you know, cold feet or doubt, as if like, what the heck did I just do? Like, I just turned down that to come back to, you know, this, this earth? I’m just like, Jesus, I was just like, kicking myself, I just, again, ask the question I, I was, I’ve always a question kind of guy. And I guess that kind of put me into the job as a therapist and stuff like that. I love figuring out why the things are the way that they are, and figuring out solutions to problems. And I just said, How do I know that this is going to happen, and they gave me one of the biggest superpowers, which is the power of thought, the power of perception, and the power of paths in the sense that the higher the vibratory your thoughts are, the more in symmetry they are within flow within the path, the more that your thoughts kind of earn parallels with fear kind of lower energy, the more in a sense that will kind of take you off that path and put you on a lower vibratory path and a more difficult path, not necessarily relating to the series of events, but more in terms of your ability to be able to manage your circumstances. And then that’s when everything shut down. And I was left in a hospital bed, you know, with my mother, who is quite distraught. And at the time, my mother told me that I was so angry, that I kicked the doctor and ran around the room that I was, I was absolutely furious. In the sense that here, I was turning down heaven. And I was put in such a different vantage point from the other side, in the light of it, you know, on a on a cold hospital bed, you know, being operated on, you know, just just dependent on, you know, like a medical personnel. And, you know, we’ll get into that a little bit more, because I think my book really talks about the size, psychosocial, logical developmental angle, from this profound experience at the age of three or so.

Brian Smith 18:25
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Wow. There’s so much I want to go into with with that. You know, first of all, I want to remind the viewers, the listeners, the viewers, because it’s going on YouTube, and my podcast, you were three years old, and you had this experience, which is very unusual. It’s interesting, you talk about the experience itself, and even the time before your memories of it are so detailed. And most of us don’t remember anything for the age of like, five. So one of the questions I know people that have these experiences early, early in life, how could you possibly remember what happened?

Unknown Speaker 19:02
What I would say is certainly, as a psychotherapist, I definitely have professional capital and legs to stand on when it comes to understanding of trauma and how that works. At least from my experience, there’s, I can’t think of anything more traumatic than suffocating, you know, and dying, right. And so, you know, that’s an experience no matter how old or how young has a capacity to stick with you. And when it comes to trauma, not only do you remember the actual event, but you have memories of the surrounding event, you know, the events that kind of came a little bit after and a little bit before, and that has to deal with trauma, you know, and also, there’s the euphoric element of this experience where this defies all conventional wisdom. You’re right, you know, in a sense, how do I remember things that, you know, at such a young age, and I’m no different than anyone else, I remember very little other than these incredible transformative experiences when you’re connecting to the other side that goes against all logic within because not produced from this body, you know, it’s filtered through the body and you’re connected to a much higher realm that’s eternal. It’s not from the finite mind. That’s limited. And it’s, you know, recollection stuff, the conscious mind are connected to the subconscious, eternal mind. And so that’s in many ways how it stuck with me. And so if you watch the Netflix documentary, surviving death, you’ll see I think, at the last episode, they have an episode of like a child who remembers his past lifetime as a pilot, and, you know, all the details and stuff like that. And so, in the I know, the University of Virginia has a whole case study of children’s past lives. And I know, that’s one of the prerequisites to become, you know, I guess like a Buddhist monk or stuff like that, you have to remember your your last life, and so infants have a very high capacity to remember the previous lifetimes that are not produced by the spotty, right, so that’s possible, then certainly would lay itself into possibility of remembering, you know, parts from infancy and even, you know, you know, NATO kind of periods and stuff like that. So, hope that makes sense. Absolutely.

Brian Smith 21:11
That’s an excellent answer, maybe the best I’ve heard from to describe this, I also want to say that it’s not unusual for children, as young as two or three, or even younger, who have had these experiences, even infants, even, you know, children, before they even have language can remember them. Ingrid honkala, who I’ve had on my show, and Ingrid had experience with she was like two years old. And she remembers in great detail, and I love what you said that. But the thing is, that trauma can bring back memories. And some people do have memories of not even near death experiences, but just anything something traumatic that happened when they were at that age. So transformation. Yeah, it makes it makes sense. And I loved I’m glad that you gave that answer. And for anybody that’s doubting that I want to know. And I wanted to put that out there. The other thing I noticed, though, that like, even when you went to the other side, you know, the way you describe it, you seem to have a different level of consciousness and a three year old would have no, like the negotiations you made about coming back? And do you feel like your consciousness shifted, when you, when you cross back over? Did you become like your, your higher self, for lack of a better word,

Unknown Speaker 22:16
I would say that no infant or no child is how we perceive them, most of us, in a sense that we’re not our bodies, we’re not our ages, we’re not numbers, we’re not even our names. And so to help people saw me, or how probably the external portrayal of myself, you know, that probably wasn’t in parallel. But when we look in an infant, we look at a child, there’s the external portrayal, and then there’s internal processing that happens that, you know, isn’t communicated isn’t expressed. And so that was connected to not my necessarily two or three year old self as normally, I don’t think any of us are at our core that, you know, it was the deeper waters of my soul that I was connected to, which is not bound by time, place culture or anything like that. And so it was a lot more of an expanded awareness and connectivity to that. But I think in a way to wait that I could describe the soul is not the mind, not our worries, not our limitations, but rather, the deep secret observer beyond the surface. And that’s always kind of there underneath the surface that can never leave us. And, you know, that’s the part that I got in connected to. And that was always with me, within this lifetime, the soul doesn’t dissolve automatically changed when become 2122. In fact, a lot of people become a lot less a lot more. So less than soulful at that age. And so infants, children, probably, you know, have a lot more connectivity to that deeper part of them and are, in a way, almost kind of like Benjamin buttons. There’s an age reversal that happens when we physically grow up, integrate into this world look more mature and can play the game better. But our true essence at times, you know, fades away. And so I look at children and infants says some of the higher souls and more aware souls are older than some 90 or 100 years old. Yeah, in a way.

Brian Smith 24:21
That’s beautifully said. Yeah, that was beautifully said. And I completely agree. It reminds me There’s a song I love that talks about how we come into this world, innocent and pure. And then this called the way of the world by Earth, Wind and Fire. And you know, I love that song. Because I think it’s just so true. We come in and we’re pure and We’re innocent, and there’ll be learned to play the game the way you said and we forget who we were. It’s interesting. You got this, this reminder, this reset at the age of three. I think that’s another really thing that’s unusual, about about your experience, but thank you for the answer. That’s the thing about your experience and a lot of times again, people They’ll say, well, when people have never experienced none of experience, they’re just seeing it was wish fulfillment. They’re seeing what they expect is what they’re culturally expected to see. So when I read in your book, I want to read a short passage from one of the chapters. He said that you that you perceive Jesus, you said, You didn’t see Jesus, but you proceed Jesus, if I if I remember correctly,

Unknown Speaker 25:21
more like a hearing an inner knowing. And yeah, it’s funny because I grew up, you know, in a religious traditional community, went to Hebrew school, all that stuff out all the rules, and you know, modern Orthodox Jewish kid, Jesus was born a Jew, Jew and guided you, he’s probably more Jewish than, than I myself am, you know, he was in Israel, right? and stuff like that. So, but in my lifetime, that wasn’t something that was I was exposed to, right. And I certainly understand within Jewish tradition, there’s a lot of pushback, not necessarily from Jesus himself, but what came after him through the crusades, and, you know, attacks on Jews. And so I could understand how a lot of people, you know, misinterpreted the message and used it as violence. And that couldn’t be more diametrically opposite to the life that Jesus stood for, you know, so I can understand that. So from seeing that it was just a whirlwind of difference from the culture environment that I was exposed to at that young age, you know, and so it would make sense for me to see more So Moses in a, you know, in a staff or Joseph or someone else from Genesis, right.

Brian Smith 26:37
As much cultural conditioning as you could have at the age of three, you’d expect that and so I do want to read this passage, I think it’s beautiful. You said, I understood that Jesus was a closest depiction of man and God higher consciousness form that we can comprehend that we can comprehend. In that moment, I was conscious of its desire to spread loving messages, and not to focus on the ending of his life. But rather than his love of service, forgiving his neighbors and bringing heaven down to earth through his own sacrifice, and trials and tribulations, I was aware that his life was an all of us. And then we have the capacity to embody elements of him within each and every one of our journeys, for he is an undeniable part of ourselves, one that is always with us, even if we had time for the sight of it. I thought that that was beautiful. And it actually a project I’ve been thinking about doing or when to ask people, what does Jesus mean to you. And if you don’t mind, I would love to conclude that, you know, when I do this project, I think that’s a beautiful synopsis of Jesus, who Christ is,

Unknown Speaker 27:35
please do and I don’t mean to have a monopolization of heaven, or God, I was just some kid who had this experience at a young age and I had a small taste of it. But I look at my everyday experiences a way to come closer to understanding I think if truth becomes stagnant in terms of religion, but the truth becomes open ended. And exploratory. It’s more goes the lines of spirituality, and that’s more of the beginner’s mind, Buddhist kind of mentality where the Masters mind is the mind, who knows who’s open, you know, and not defined by what they know and experience. But certainly, you know, a lot of people say is Jesus, God is God, God, what’s this? What’s that? I say, No, we’re all expressions of that. But but different figures throughout history, have a higher octave, a higher vibration of that, that we’re not meant to put on a pedestal, but rather learning to integrate, and to learn that that is possible within our lifetimes. And, you know, to be reminded of the possibility to reach in deeper gears that are a lot more than how we perceive ourselves, but more reflective of what’s in ourselves.

Brian Smith 28:45
Yeah, absolutely. And another thing I want to touch on in terms of your experience, again, we talked before we get started, because the experience itself is fantastic. It’s interesting, but what are the lessons and in one of the other lessons I saw, and you point this out, when you talk about the experiences that said, You felt a little bit embarrassed, you’d already forgotten your guides, but they were always with us. And so I think a lot of times, as adults, you know, we forget our guides are with us. So what would you say to people that say, you know, I do I have guides?

Unknown Speaker 29:15
Yeah, you know, if anyone’s interested, too, I have monthly events on Facebook Live and one of the topics that’s going to be coming, it’s less Monday of each month, you know, and it’s open for the community and down the road, one specific topics and my professional pages, spiritual guides. What I would say is a lot of people if they don’t get every single Mark checked off, right, in terms of their guides, they listen to a lot of people talk and they’ll be able to talk about knowing their guides, but the guides past life, their guides, mothers to their guides, spiritual out, you know, and then they’ll feel like, Oh, that’s what these people are experiencing, and I’m just, you know, having what I’m having, so it’s just validated. What I would say is, you know, each experience is unique And each experience is a part of your own dosage of reawakening because I think we’re truly all awakened just about the integration of that. And so, ultimately, I don’t connect to my guides daily, sometimes even question their names, which is why I don’t put in the book. But that doesn’t mean that you can’t connect to them in your own special way that you can have a dialogue and look at meditation as a great intimacy with with your guides and the other side, you know, you’re able to get into the sacred silence and feel, you know, those beings around you, and you’re enhancing your energy, your vibration, so that their vibration could match yours. When you’re feeling very stuck, closed, closed, head, closed heart, it’s very hard for flow of energy to come in to you. But I think certainly everyone has spiritual guides were born with them. They know us before this lifetime in the charting phase, and so they never leave us, we just at times leave them. I think a lot of that has to do with a, the fact that we feel unworthy to have these beings who investment us so much you care about us so much. It’s not self aggrandizement, to think that. But I think also the illusion that isolation that people have, where we feel pain, we feel that we’re just, you know, pain could lead us on an illusionary path that we’re isolated. And, you know, we’re, we’re internal suffering, just alone. And one thing that I truly learned and I talk a little bit more about this, my second book, which is more of direct implicative lessons of the here now, the hereafter that the here now is just that illusionary sensation of being alone and how we could have that state of mind. But the state of reality presents itself a little bit differently, that we’re always surrounded and guided and protected. We just not always are aware of that.

Announcer 31:50
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Brian Smith 32:51
Yeah, you know, it’s interesting that you talked about that being alone I was a young man, his name is Roland changing. He wrote a book, who we are and why we are and one of the things he said in his book is like, one of the things we agree when we come into this life is we agreed to this feeling of abandonment, which seems to be universal, that we all feel alone on some level at some point. So it’s an interesting thing that you talked about even even at three years old, you know, you had already forgotten that you were that you were never alone.

Unknown Speaker 33:20
Even at then sec could understand how adults forget years old, you know starting to fall asleep at the wheel a little bit. Right and just having a little bit of amnesia. And so I’m sure I can understand how adults are doing that. But there’s so much symmetry with what’s happening on a macro and micro basis to my experience this sense that, you know, from a young age at three years old, I had an upper respiratory highly contagious virus called pertussis, or whooping cough, and that caused me to suffocate. And hence the title life after breath, I suffocated and there was an eternal life past the limited breath within the body, there’s eternal Breath of the Spirit, there’s eternal life of the spirit that I was able to remember. I think impermanence is bolted to our face a lot more these days with the macro, upper respiratory virus that’s happening today. And a lot of people are feeling you know, just just very uncertain about their lives. And a lot of people in many ways feel breathless, and they’ve got nothing to hold on to they’re grasping for straws in the outer world, because it’s that rug has been pulled. So for people to not only just survive or thrive, people now need to find different gears, they may not have turned from, you know, prior comfort. And so I think this time has posed people to kind of expedite some of their store houses of inner truth in your own backyard to come out more you know, as the outer stimuli is more enhanced, and And throwing away a little bit more these days?

Brian Smith 35:03
Yeah, absolutely. So um, nothing would ask you, you know, you have this experience three years old. And a lot of times people have near death experiences, almost always they take some integration to get to kind of readjust once they come back. For adults, that can be seven to 14 years for children, it could be 20 to 30 years. Yeah, you’re only 30 years old now. So how do you feel that you How did this experience impact your your growing up? And how are you integrating it now?

Unknown Speaker 35:35
You know, can you everything as a blessing but looking back on it, it was certainly how to, you know, just just perfect, it was a double edged sword. You know, it was very allegorical the near death experience in the sense that there, in order to see the the light, I had to see some of the dark and the suffocation to really remind myself with the light, it’s hard to see the light at times without the dark, sir, it’s hard to remind yourselves of the infinite, without its opposite of the finite and I had the most direct connection with finite suffering and suffocation. The most no connectivity with with infinite, through eternal breath through we, you know, understanding eternity, but I would say, matter of fact, I grew up in a home, you know, for children, my parents were more so in the here now than the hereafter. There were hard working people, my father was a sacral therapist, but out of all the four children, we all had the same food, the same environment, the same classes, can ask anyone who knew the family, I was by far the most difficult child, I was a PA, you know, to them from ever since that experience. And I think that has a lot of layers to it. I think, obviously, the trauma that happened, you know, as well as the inner rebel that was born in me, you know, that in a sense that I wasn’t programmed on this kind of mechanism, you know, that kids were kind of put on, but we’re just kind of taught that we’re blank slates, and the parents had authoritative figures, you know, where authoritative figures and teachers were. And we just put, you know, our lives in other people’s hands. And I was very defiant and oppositional in a sense that it wasn’t able to be expressed at the time, but a part of me could no longer be able to play the game, as other people saw me, I saw myself as a lot older and a lot, kind of wiser than some of the mature adults who are just trying to reel me in. So I was very defiant, and combine that with the strict traditional, you know, religion that had a monopolization of God that tried to program that into my head that was very much God and men to image of god of 30, much of this world those kind of portrayed, it was very hard for me. And so I had years of therapy, I had a very difficult time, from purely, you know, physiological standpoints, you know, suffocating having my brain deprived of oxygen in my brain was much different. And I was a lot more comfortable in that realm than this in this room. But ultimately, to survive at the time, I had to push away heaven. But later in life to thrive, I had to learn how to integrate it. Wow. Make sense?

Brian Smith 38:20
Yeah, absolutely. And that was, again, beautifully stated, I think, you know, it’s interesting, because you we talked about earlier about, we come in, and we have to learn the plates and play the game. But when you get that, that reset that you got to like page three, and I know Ingrid did the same thing. Ingrid, hi climb I mentioned earlier, she would look at adults. And it’s like, I’m the same as you are. She was two years old. And they’re like, you know, she even she rejected her name. She said, That’s not my name. And people would look at her and like, Yeah, what’s what’s going on with this little girl? So I love that you include that in your story in the book, but you know, it’s not all sunshine and roses. And sometimes people from the outside will look or near death experience, say, Oh, I wish I could have a near death experience. Because it’s such it’s such a great thing. But it does come with with the price.

Unknown Speaker 39:07
Sure. I mean, I was a very in my book, I talk about this for many years, very struggled within school systems that would fight or near if I tried, it couldn’t really focus because my head was my brain chemistry was changed from that. And so I had a very hard time. And so, you know, through therapy and through taking medication, all this kind of stuff to help me out. But it wasn’t till I would say my early 20s when I like you said the 2030 year period was able to kind of crack in and being able to understand it, you know, on a deeper level on internal perspective, I knew what was going on. But to be able to ground the here after into the here now. That’s something that takes a whole lifetime but to crack the surface on that I started I read began that process, probably my early 20s when I had kind of like a holistic spiritual awakening. That many different kind of experiences. And I know my book, no part of that was an out of body experience and training and different kind of energy principles. And I think ultimately it was, it was one of the gifts of suffering, you know, with with the life that I was living in just the uncertainty of where I was going. And so to remember, where I wanted to go at to truly remember who I was, because ultimately, if I didn’t know who I was, I could be anybody if I don’t know where it came from, I could be going anywhere. So ultimately, it’s the uncertainty that tried to get me to come to grips with more allies of certainty. within that timeframe.

Brian Smith 40:41
I want to ask you about how you feel about like soul planning. You mentioned earlier, when you were when you had this experience, when you were three, you saw kind of like your soul group, I think you said around you. And as I was reading your book, there are a couple people that came in your life, or that were playing key roles around like your aunt seal. And I wonder how you feel about her. And then there was Armando the woman that that you’d seen, I don’t remember what time frame was when you saw my psychic. But as I was reading it, I’m sorry.

Unknown Speaker 41:11
Around that timeframe, you know, we still keep in touch her and I.

Brian Smith 41:14
Yeah. And I’m like, so I think there are people in our lives. And I’m going to ask you this is a quite informal question. Do you feel like there are people in our lives that are just like they come along at the right moment and give us what we need?

Unknown Speaker 41:26
Absolutely. I think Brian Weiss says that angels just aren’t these beings on the other side, they come in human form to an animal in disguise. I think, you know, Dr. Brian Weiss is very accurate in that. And I think part of the gain of living this lifetime is through these experiences with other people, not only do they help us to see much more of how we think we are who we truly are, but in a sense that they’re almost, you know, some some times I think, in a way, this lifetime is very much a school, not to be punished, you know, stuff like that, but to have an opportunity. And I think in many ways that opportunities to be there of service to learn what it’s like to be a guide here, so that we could be a guide when we cross over a little bit easier. So it’s hard to run a marathon without running a couple of laps beforehand. I think this is a practice to get to that point. So

Brian Smith 42:20
yeah, so talk about like, for example, you’re at CEO her influence on on on your, on your life, or how she influenced you. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 42:29
she was actually it’s funny. Her life had a lot of allegory to it. She was a singer Felice NaVi Tao, is it like Jose Feliciano, something like that? Yeah, Nick had like vision impairments. My answer was actually his teacher. And she taught those visual impairments, you know, in the Queen school system. And that was allegorical for life that she lived, she was, he grew up in this church tradition, but she was very much into cabbalistic teachings and Jewish mysticisms and Sylvia Browne, who is other people. And so she, she believed in people to be able to see what they couldn’t see to trust in this kind of unseen world. And so she allowed those who are blind to be able to see other parts of them. And at a funeral, there was all these people who had vision impairments, and were blinded, they were just hysterically crying. And I think, you know, when a part of us isn’t necessarily connected to as much, a lot more times people are more in tune to their emotional parts, and in other parts of their sensitivities are a little bit stronger. So just so profound, to see the impact that she had. That’s just the person that she was in. So she was very much a guide to not only myself, but to hundreds of students to be able, on a practical basis, you know, to learn how to integrate into this world with not being able to see but to trust in, you know, this, these other components to ourselves. And to me, at least, she was very much a mentor, you know, in terms of give me all these reading assignments to kind of get me to be able to see, when at times I might have suppressed vision, you know, of these own realities, and just kind of bog that down kind of like a beach ball in a pool. Right? So she was a profound and still is a profound guiding teacher. Yeah,

Brian Smith 44:13
yeah. And like I said, I, I was impressed by her impact on life and also our mind on the psyche that you saw, which I thought was also interesting, because you said being raised a traditional Orthodox Jew, we don’t I just had someone on the other day this is and she was she’s Jewish, like we don’t see psychics. So the fact that you will

Unknown Speaker 44:34
start to change a little bit, you know, especially as science is catching up, and you might know wonderful organizations such as let’s just say forever family foundation is coming up with all these, you know, tested mediums and scientific tested medium. So I think science and know the afterlife are really working more in harmony. But I think really, truly with the amount of pain that people are going through. I think all religions are being a little bit more In some degree a little bit more flexible, you know, where if it’s resourceful if it’s helpful, I think, in this in this timeframe, you know, then in a sense, you know, kind of like, removing some stuff that we’ve believed in the past, you know, if it’s resourceful but there’s a little bit more bend that I’m starting to notice within people practice religion to kind of tap into a little bit more of the spirituality, you know, I say, the hereafter exists not because of religion, but despite of it, right? So it on spirituality exists because of not despite have to, but um, Armando was was interesting, because she, I went to her, you know, and most people say, Okay, if you see a neon light sign on, and you see this, the storefront don’t go there. But I think 85% of these people are just kind of storefronts and just kind of charlatans in a way. But she was so much different. I’ve gotten readings from some of the best, and she was by far one of the very best, you know, intuitive that I’ve ever had. And since she, you know, tapped into, she just saw through me, everything that I had, including that past lifetime that I connected to, that was like the first time that someone had that because I had this recollection of my near death experience, but I was haunted. And my childhood of that suicide that I had an experience and she, without me getting public This is before I started lecturing, which is in 2015 2016, this must have been a couple years before that, that she tapped into them. It’s just like, so it’s very validating, you know, from understanding the soul’s purpose and to understanding that, you know, wow, that other people are able to tap into this stuff, not just alone in this kind of thing.

Brian Smith 46:40
Yeah, absolutely. And the thing is, you said and I kind of smile when you said it, you know, we do we see these storefront psychics, and we’re like, they’re all fake, and maybe most of them are, but they’re definitely, you know, real people out there as well. And when we come across them, they blow our minds, you know, they completely change your worlds.

Unknown Speaker 47:00
Yeah, you know, and I think any way anyone could come in saying that I’m a life coach, I’m a psychic, there’s no kind of overlying governing body to write them in that. I think now there’s added a lot more credibility when we’re having evidential mediums evidential intuitives going through ringer, you know, I’ve tested, I know Gary Schwartz runs different programs. And Dr. Gary Schwartz runs different programs. And I know Harvard has different programs to kind of test, you know, these evidential mediums and intuitive I think that’s very important, because I’m sure you could agree to this one of the most vulnerable we have to be the most privy to with who we give our vulnerability to, we have to be careful to replace our grief in the hands of many people could say, and we read New York Times stories of people getting kind of conned with all these kind of psychics, when we’re most vulnerable, we’re looking for answers. We’re thirsty for any given answers. And people will say, okay, you do this, I’ll pay me $100,000 I’ll clear energy field and I’ll light these candles, and I’ll bring forward your loved ones. And, you know, so, you know, when we’re desperate, you never go to the grocery store when we’re hungry. Never go on a date when lonely. And certainly, we never go to someone who’s not credible when we’re feeling, you know, intensified grief. or medium perspective. So yeah,

Brian Smith 48:15
great. That was that was again, so well said because one of the criticisms that I’ve worked with a lot of mediums that I’ve interviewed on these and I know a lot of me’s and most of them are great people, the ones I know, I’ve been very fortunate. They’re very spiritual people, they want to help people. But one of the criticisms is, they’re all spiritual vampires, and they just suck on your grief. And they’re those people are certainly out there. But we do have to be discerning as you were saying, we need to we need to, you know, to get recommendations validations as much as we can. I personally never just go to, you know, someone that just out of the Yellow Yellow Pages. That’s Yeah, they asked me but

Unknown Speaker 48:52
but at the Chester gotcha. And I know, a bob Olson, who’s got a book, too, out there a book or two out there, but he’s got a second directory that goes through his own testing, too. And I know, on my website I have, and again, I’m not a paranormal researcher, but I have no couple of evidential mediums and psychics up there, you know, for people as resources to if people are interested, you know, getting readings that I refer it, let’s say I’m working with a client as a therapist, and they’re just kind of hitting a wall with the grief, there’s nothing that could do or say to them, you know, in a way that would expedite the amount of healing that someone with evidential information has. And I think it’s important to see a therapist to work on know the ground up perspective, but at times getting that evidential understanding doesn’t change the line of events, but it causes, you know, grief to formulate its way onto belief, you know, which is a great transition for people, you know, to start, you know, in the way the healing which has no timetable in a way Yeah.

Brian Smith 49:55
Yeah, you know, what you said there are so I think was really interesting about like, you know, seeing affair peers and seeing a medium for example, there’s a place for for both, and they each serve different roles, getting a great meeting really can be extremely healing, you know, and that’s one thing that people because even as therapists you know as grief counselors in the past, the model was your loved one is gone get over it let’s let’s adjust to life without them. But you mentioned forever family foundation I work with an organization called helping parents heal.

Unknown Speaker 50:28
And it’s another year

Brian Smith 50:30
and more now it’s an even in grief therapy. Now they’re saying well, maybe we should look at continuing buys, let’s let’s really look at the fact that that person is still here that we can still have relationship with them, let’s understand who we are as human beings that we’re not just, you know, these biological, accidental robots that we lead, you said we come from someplace and we have someplace to go back to, and that seems to be a lot more healing for people than this idea of just now just get over it move on.

Unknown Speaker 50:58
I think AIA was was very groundbreaking, a brain spirit spiritual psychotherapy, into the game, just in terms of, you know, the steps and Serenity Prayer. And so that kind of infiltrated itself into psychotherapy, you know, and then, you know, mindfulness came in CBD came in. And so I think, you know, in a way, you know, holistic spiritual psychotherapy is now, you know, seen as a lot more interdisciplinary and, and so I’m I work in private practice, and we’re for, let’s say, a clinic, we don’t just see a client, we work on the medical we work, you know, with recovery oriented coaches, we work, you know, and I facilitate around, you know, three mindfulness groups per week. So I think the more resources that we’re able to give people and checking our egos out at the door, I think we’re able to understand the person as a holistic being, as, you know, much more than just one dimensional, not the multi dimensional and being able to not limit them with with resources, you know, at hand, I think that Yeah, the place to go from.

Brian Smith 52:00
So you, you work as your Reiki, you’re a certified hypnotherapist, you’re certified Reiki Master, you’re a clinical social worker, and you specialize and past life regression. So how do you integrate this into your, into your practice, when you’re seeing clients?

Unknown Speaker 52:20
You know, a key tenant within psychotherapy and social work one on one is learning how to meet the client, where their feet are at entering their world. And for a lot of people, that’s a very, very vulnerable position, to take yourself out of the equation into someone’s world, but but in the way, you know, that’s how people are very much helped, you know, because they’re feeling very alone. And so, in the way it’s a lot of bed about it is understanding. And so the person’s here, and you’re looking up at them, not always down on them, you know, or just kind of seeing them as a pathologized diagnosis and stuff like that, but rather as a comprehensive, resilient, you know, strong person that you’re trying to develop self efficacy and enhanced superpowers of resilience in the face of adversity, and learning ways to integrate them. And so do private practice, you know, there’s assessment phases that I’ll do, where I don’t accept every client, not every client is appropriate. You know, for services, some would be better suited with other clinicians or other modalities of treatment. But at least within private practice is a lot more autonomy that I have, or someone comes into me. In our collaboratively, we kind of discussed, okay, maybe starting with, you know, CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, or dialectical behavioral therapy or some other services is Mindfulness Based Services or consciousness consulting, and other people, they’ve tried all those modalities, and they’re just hitting the wall. But that’s when maybe working with subconscious mind might be helpful with hypnosis, or, you know, something that I do within groups and individuals as past life. Regression Therapy is quite resourceful, you know, in a sense that I ultimately think that we’re here to evolve. You know, our souls, as Darwin talked about evolution of the body, I think it’s no different within the souls and so it’s very hard for people because the number one question that people has is, why am I here? What’s my purpose, so much of who we are, is based on kind of the clouded layers of built up perception that other people have put on us, which is looked at us as a blank slate. And so we’ve internalized that viewpoint, you know, in our perception, how we see ourselves and ultimately, I think we act on based on how we’re informed of the world, how we are informed of God will impact how we handle this lifetime. And it’s a mirror reciprocal dynamic. And as we expand that viewpoint, so to our life’s perfect purpose, experience, and I view past life regression as a great way to really expand consciousness to expand awareness to be able to understand a lot more Not what we are, but who we truly are. So that we are able to go through life with more grace and ease and in guidance within our lives.

Brian Smith 55:10
This may not be a fair question, but you know, people people ask, Well, I sometimes we ask people where they haven’t experienced, like, they know everything, but I’m gonna ask you anyway. So, you know, we obviously believe in reincarnation, you believe that we come here more than once. So what’s Why don’t we remember our past lives? I mean, you talk about past life regression. And I know people that do it, I know, people that have done it, and it’s extremely helpful. So what’s, what’s the deal with the forgetfulness?

Unknown Speaker 55:40
There’s great beauty in the journey, you know, the journey is never ending, you know, sometimes within the journey, you know, we have a knowing that comes to us directly, you know, and sometimes you just have to trudge along with faith, you know, in interest in it. Ultimately, you know, if everything was so clear, then why would we be here on earth? I think we’ve come here, you know, in in many ways, it’s, its polarity to just to clear knowing, you know, in the sense that this earth is, you know, there’s darkness, there’s a lot of times where we don’t have all those higher sensory awakenings of awareness, full, full, full force, and I think so much of that is, you know, well, you know, how can we possibly evolve without challenges presented our way, you know, it’s very hard for us to have a bicep curl and not feel that bit of pain or that hurt, but a 10 day, you know, that is a direct correlation ship, and I view pain and gain as a great, great and late Bay, right would say, right, you know, no pain, no gain, it’s very much correlated, you know, and I don’t view that as a punishment or a prison sentence. So I don’t necessarily here think we’re here to, to acquire, but rather to re remember or reintegrate what’s truly inside of ourselves. And I think ultimately, that’s a lot of the souls purpose isn’t in becoming something or someone else that we’re not, but learning ways to remember that we experienced that reintegrate that. And so that’s a very versatile concept. And so in the face of my experience, let’s just say, when you have finite challenges, such as suffocation presented your way, you know, when you have nothing to hold on to, when you looked at darkness, and you lose a loved one. And, you know, everything tells you that this is the end. And for people, we understand the correlation ship with that degree of suffering and the degree of change and evolution, it’s very hard to meet someone who hasn’t gone through, you know, transformation without, you know, being that Phoenix out of the ashes, so to speak. So, I think that’s very much something that no one’s immune from, just in terms of the challenges, but I think if it was all clearly in front of us, you know, then where would the freewill come into play? When the decision come into play? And when would this journey come into play, that we’re all here, to continue to stay a part of which a times that that journey is very clear. And other times we’re like, what the hell is going on, but to continue to stay on course, you know, is a part of our evolution, a part of our strength and a part of this human experience. And there’s no one who’s got full clarity at all times, sometimes, you know, a times there’s clouds, and sometimes we see the sun coming in through but I think reminding yourself, the sun is always there. The truth is always there, despite some of those blockages where we might trust in that I think a lot of this is being able to interest in faith knowingness, you know, and, and the higher forces of spiritual guidance over our own limited viewpoint. I think that’s why we’re able to be a lot more resilient and evolve quicker. Yeah. Yeah,

Brian Smith 58:53
great answer. Very, very well said, You know, I think it’s, you know, I think it’s the the pain and the forgetfulness. Now, it’s all part of the, the thing we set up for ourselves. And as you said, earlier, I use I use the gym analogy, I use the awesome Of course analogy. I’m like this, this, our life is kind of like an obstacle course, which wouldn’t be much of an obstacle course, if there were no obstacles. I know, if you just if you just ran from point A to point B, and there was nothing in between that would that would kind of suck as an obstacle course. So I think we set these challenges out for ourselves.

Unknown Speaker 59:24
Right, and you know, and ultimately, I think a lot of things are charted for us. Because, you know, when we crossover, you know, part of it is, each lifetime, I think makes us more is more of an opportunity to be able to integrate the inner part of ourselves within each lifetime. And so, I think from losing ourselves, we’re able to refine ourselves and from loss from pain, we lose a part of ourselves, we regain a different part of ourselves. And so I think in a way there’s there’s always lessons that are there for each and every one have us and it’s ultimately, lessons are no longer needed to be repeated from those greater messages being embraced. And I think once those messages are being embraced and herb we’re able to really ascend, travel into upper stratosphere is of evolutions of our souls growth within each and every lifetime. But again, again, perception is reality, we could see this as, you know, you know, a victimization, we could see this as no punishment or purgatory, you know, this this earth plane, or it’s very easy to see that or, you know, I try to take the high road on a personal professional basis where I see this as, you know, an opportunity of finite challenges with infinite consequences and measures,

Brian Smith 1:00:39
huh, wow, beautiful.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:41
I think all these things are the power that we give themselves power to, but this body, this lifetime is all impermanent. Now, what we take from that what we extract that has infinite potentiality. And so I think when we give more power to the infinite, there’s more power to the finite, we’re starting to get on track towards, you know, really kind of evolving within our lifetimes. And know that happened to myself and other near death, experiencers and other people who with with intense love and intense transformation, ultimately, we don’t really go through those moments without understanding where we give our energy to. And I think it’s ultimately giving our energy to resilient and infinite, over the finite challenges presented ourselves, front of ourselves. Yeah.

Brian Smith 1:01:27
Other kinds of don’t ask you about is that kinds of a contract, because that comes up a lot as we karma as we talk about these, you know, experiences. And so when I hear about your, your past life, where you were a teacher, which and you’re a teacher now, and you, you felt like you let your students down, I believe that caused you some trauma in this life. So do you think karma plays into that? And what’s your what’s your view of karma?

Unknown Speaker 1:01:53
Yeah, you know, I don’t think it’s a punishment, I think, in a way, it’s an opportunity. I think, then away from completion, we begin we enter different bodies with with different structures, but those similar moves on the chessboard are kind of similar. And the more skillful, we get, right? Within each lifetime, the better your chest moves will make much like that movie, The Queen’s gambit. And you can see it’s many ways, but I kind of viewed this as the more skillful we get, the better moves we’ll make and the more you know, we’ll be able to really ascend, you know, the board, I kind of see, at least from my lifetime, I look at the near death experience, and that the past life recollection, as all kind of intertwined in one in a sense that, ultimately, we’re here to trust, what’s inside of us a lot more than the challenge in front of us might certainly committed suicide, and others who have had suicidal ideations or attempts, and those who have committed suicide from my understanding, are not condemned, we’re not judged it’s, we go to the other side, it’s, it’s totally diametrically opposite than love as we know it, or as a treatment that we get here. It’s, you know, in the Spirit of St. Valentine’s day, a day ago, it’s, it’s never ending love, it’s a love that has no limits or bounds, and love that doesn’t love you from what you do, but who you truly are, because to not love yourself, if we are indeed, part of God would be to condemn or not love the source from which it came from? Right? How was that possible? I think, you know, at our core, we’re here to remember that part of ourselves. But, you know, I think the suicide in the sense that I was able to remove myself from was just that allegorical reference of the light at the end of the tunnel, where, no matter what we’re going through, we have to be privy to and careful with where we give our power to, we give our power to our own limited perception of reality, our own anxieties and fears that feel very much real. That could take us on a world course of its own universes to a clear understanding that we can ever be hurt or damaged by almost anything, even if it seems that way, that there’s an eternal vessel within ourselves. If we’re able to have that as a hallmark part of our true Foundation, then surely, we’re able to have a lot more resilience in the face of challenges through grace and ease to that understanding. And I think ultimately, it’s when people once people see themselves as more than their emotions more than their body. But as an infinite soul, you know, that’s when they’re a lot more capable of handling challenges doesn’t mean that we’re not challenged doesn’t mean that we’re not off kilter. You know, no one’s immune from that. But it means that we’re able to pivot a little bit easier. And I think that’s when, you know, mindfulness comes into play. Not so much. You know, in judging ourselves. We’re not perfect, but when we observe ourselves, getting off base and be able to recenter and just reset, you know, a little bit more in our lifetimes. Yeah,

Brian Smith 1:04:58
I think there’s um, I I’ve talked to people who have, you know, practice these two religions, I think there’s a big misunderstanding about karma that we need to reframe. And when I heard you saying, it’s kind of like, it’s almost like a chance to do it again, it’s like, it’s not a punishment. It’s like, yeah, go back and have to do this again. It’s more like, oh, okay, I think I maybe I could do this a little bit better. So I’ll do similar circumstances, and, you know, hopefully do better. And so it’s interesting that you were, you know, were teachers in this most recent life. And then this is what you’re doing now. From, seems like to me and more skillful position.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:33
That Yeah, you know, and I talk about very vulnerable, you know, in a lot of intuitive experiences, go through this, you know, in the book, I had some degrees of suicidal ideations, stuff like that. And thankfully, you know, my father as a therapist was able to help me. So again, still, some of that came to the forefront, and still working with clients, you know, who are high, you know, clients who came from the hospitals as suicidal ideations as suicide attempts. So, from personal professional, that’s just something that, you know, I agreed to contract with. And, you know, I think, ultimately, you know, I think it’s getting people a little bit more tools and a little bit more resilience and a little bit more support in all around them. But I think I look at spirituality as a great superpower in the face of challenges, you know, in a sense that you’re able to feel sense and know a lot more around you, you know, then then you might be limited within your own emotional mind or your own, you know, analytical mind that might drive you down a deep hole. And so I think you’re able to surrender yourself to a lot more of a greater belief system and energy, even if it feels like it’s fantasy. It does help you out. So, yeah, well, we’re

Brian Smith 1:06:49
recording this on February 15 2021. We are hopefully coming to the end of the coronavirus pandemic. But people around the world, you know, we’re in all kinds of fear, we’re in grief. What what are some lessons that people can take from your experience that we can apply what we’re going through right now?

Unknown Speaker 1:07:09
Absolutely. Once we think it’s the end, it’s not the end is the greatest illusion. And that is produced by the linear mind, which is function from beginning to end. That’s how it works. That’s how it operates. It’s linear. There’s a start, there’s an ending. And that’s true. This body that’s true this lifetime, there’s an impermanence. But I think what people have to bear in mind is how illusionary that is and how, at our true nature, past, the mind is an eternal soul that can never be truly hurting or damaged. And I think truly, ultimately, you know, everyone who’s here alive, obviously deserves a medal in a way for still being here, because these are very challenging times. Ultimately, there’s not much challenging times we’ve ever had. But I think for most of us within this lifetime, this this has been, but I think perception is a great reality. And seeing this as a reminder of how strong we truly are. Otherwise, we truly wouldn’t be here. There’s nothing that we would be provided to, that we couldn’t truly handle. And knowing that in this age, we don’t have to do it all alone. I think it’s in many cultures did Mr. Mrs. Atlas is very much highlighted. But I think that’s very illusionary for who and what we truly are sense that we have support systems on this earth planes and those in the satellites in the heavens. And I think it’s being able to at turn, we’re feeling that we can’t do it to be able to surrender ourselves to carry ourselves, you know, to propel ourselves through these times. I think ultimately, there’s great growth in that, because once we think we could do it all, there’s no need for for change or transformation. And so we could get a little bit stagnant with that, you know, Mr. Atlas, kind of identity thing, I think the second part is no, the ability to, like we said before, to understand the griefs, the, the hallmarks of challenges in its relationship with evolution, it’s very hard to see someone who’s that strong person that we see on the surface, who hasn’t gone through a lot of you know, what? No, and so that doesn’t come without cause, you know, everything. There’s a ripple effect with every thing that we see, you know, there’s so much more than the surface. And I think ultimately, the more objective that we’re able to see yourself past this moment, and the more understanding that we are able to understand from these particular moments that led to, from infinite struggle led to finite games and measures, I think is important to know. And also it’s important to understand the value of it’s okay to not be okay. You know, there’s plenty of resources out there’s plenty of people who join you in that sentiment and I think, ultimately from individual to collective I think once people We’re able to join each other in a common ground of struggle, I think we’re able to be a lot more unified. I think, you know, once people see themselves as if this doesn’t directly affect me no longer affects me that no longer really is applied, because I think everyone is in a similar storm, and everyone’s got their own set of circumstances. But the more we’re able to see outside of ourselves, the more that we’re able to clearly see inside of ourselves, we are infinitely connected. We’re not isolated agents just know here to pay the bills and pay our mortgages and retire to certain age rather, much like my experience in the playground. We are brothers and children’s gatekeepers here playing in this playground of God, and we’re here to look after one another. And, you know, through different steps of the ladder through different challenges, we’re able to see the light a little bit clearer with different rungs and different lifetimes of for life ladders. travels. Wow, wow,

Brian Smith 1:10:57
I think that’s a great way to wrap up the interview, Jacob, I gotta tell you, it’s been, it’s been an honor having you here. It’s obvious that you book more than one life, you can not have guys dismissed with wisdom in 30 years. So I really appreciate you sharing this with us. The book is excellent. It’s called life after breath. How can people reach you? They want to know more about you.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:22
Yes, so you could go on my website at www dot Jacob L. Cooper calm. And there you could find, let’s just say if you want to email me, there’s an email icon, or my face, there’s a Facebook icon for my professional page. And they’re also Instagram too. So my whole goal is to give back what I was given in moments of deprivation of oxygen, which was inspiration in eternity, in the face of facing finite head arm, I was able to see the illusion of finite the most I can. And so my job is to give back what I was given. That’s my goal. And I think if that inspires you, my hope is that you could do the same. And you could give your hand to help someone stand. And I think we’re all here to help out each other. And we’re here very much here in this earth school, to be our brothers and sisters, gatekeepers and guides. Because that’s ultimately, you know, what we’re a part of here in this divine unique Symphony that we’re all a part of. And the more our sound is in higher harmony with the higher octaves of the other side, the better it’s going to sound and the more harmonized our collective Symphony will be. So that heaven doesn’t have to be certain that we wait for hold our breath to. Rather it’s something that it’s right here that we could excellent to. And so our website, you could look up my book resources, if you’re interested in individual services, or any other questions. So it was a pleasure to hear, and to create community and to take away the illusion of isolation.

Brian Smith 1:12:53
Awesome. Thanks, Jake. Have a great rest of your day.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:55
Brian, thank you so much for having me on your wonderful program. Keep up the excellent work. And thank you very much for listening. I hope that you were able to take something with you that you’re able to integrate spiritual measures to practical measures and everyday lives.

Brian Smith 1:13:11
That’s it for another episode of grief to growth. I sure hope you got something out of it. Please stay in contact with me by reaching out at www dot grief to growth calm. That’s grief, the number two growth com or you can text the word growth to 31996. That’s simply text growth gr o wt h 231996. So if you’re watching this on YouTube, please make sure you subscribe. So hit the subscribe button and then hit the little bell here and it’ll notify you when I have new content. Always please share the information if you enjoy it. That helps me to get more views and to get the message out to more people. Thanks a lot and have a wonderful day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Curtis Childs is the director and host of Off The Left Eye, a Swedenborg Foundation. Emmanuel Swedenborg was an 18th century Renaissance man, who late in life began having spiritual experiences and wrote about them in a series of books that are as relevant today as they were then. Swedenborg was ahead of his time when it comes to science and medicine and his in-depth knowledge of those fields helped him understand when angels and spirits revealed to him what the “Spirit World” is like.

You might wonder how an 18th-century scientist, politician, philosopher, and theologian you’ve never heard of can help you today. I wondered the same thing until I discovered the program. I have been fascinated by the insights I’ve picked up there and how so many relate to what people who have had Near Death Experiences tell us.

Curtis helps others understand how Swedenborg can help us understand things in the Bible and about the Spirit World that are often beyond our grasp. In his program, and in this interview, he makes these difficult concepts easier. I’ve been a fan for over five years. I was a little starstruck sitting down with Curtis and getting to pick his brain on Swedenborg.

for more about Curtis:

ℹ️ https://www.youtube.com/user/offTheLeftEye is the Off The Left Eye YouTube channel




Announcer 0:00
Close your eyes and imagine what if the things in life to cause us the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we’ve been buried. But what if, like a seed had been planted, and having been planted, who grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes, open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is grief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith.

Brian Smith 0:45
Hey everybody, this is Brian Smith back with another episode of grief to growth. And today I’ve got with me, they’re all special guests, but some are very special guests. And I would say Curtis childs is a very special guest, I have to admit I’m a little bit nervous is that every day you get to interview one of your one of your internet idols. But Curtis is the only read his bio. Curse it current. There’s a director of the host of the off the left eye program I told you I was nervous. The off the left eye program which is a YouTube program. Also it’s a podcast. While Curtis was obtaining his degree in communications from Oakland University experience an internal battle with depression that led him to question God and his lifelong interest in swedenborg. In theology, it’s a big word swedenborg in after a period of intense suffering, he recovered from his depression with the help of modern medicine, therapy and a return to spiritual out to the spiritual uplifting messages he found in swedenborg writings. So Curtis is now doing, he’s applying his education and his desire to help others finding peace. Through swedenborg insight by producing and hosting the weekly webcast. As I said, it’s called off the left eye. And Curtis is happiest when you can use swedenborg concepts to help someone solve something that they used to think was unsolvable. So with that, I want to introduce Curtis childs.

Curtis Childs 2:00
Hey, Brian, good to see you again. Thanks so much for having me on the program.

Brian Smith 2:04
Yeah, I guess that I’m really excited, a little bit nervous about having you here. As I was telling you, before we got started, I know your channels been around for a long time in internet years, you said it started in 2010

Curtis Childs 2:15
2010 is when we uploaded the very first

video to it. Yeah,

Brian Smith 2:18
I discovered it in 2015. And even that internet years, it’s like forever, the internet years are kind of like dog ears. You know. So it’s like seven years for every year. So the channels been around for a long time. I don’t even remember how I discovered I was just it’s one of those synchronous synchronistic things. But the channel is all about a guy named Emanuel swedenborg. So what I want to do is I want to give some people first of all, some idea who Curtis childs is and then we’ll talk about who may know swedenborg is right,

Curtis Childs 2:46
cool. Yeah, so that that bio right was written by somebody, you know, after I talked to them for a little while, and it places some of my origin story and my struggles with depression. Which there that’s one point of it, but there’s a lot I’m thinking about here on the grief, degrowth podcast, you know, I when I was six, my sister was killed in a car accident, actually, my whole family was in the car accident. And so, you know, grief and and sort of the the searching for you to do the people that you love? Are they still there? What do you think about to the mind of a six year old? It’s just that like, this doesn’t make sense. So this was part of, you know, what’s spurring me to look for what, how do you find a picture of life that that connects, or allows you to make sense of something like that. So I had had access to swedenborg spiritual tools my whole life. I mean, my parents went to a swedenborgian church, which is there’s not that many of them, but I was around one of them. And so I’ve always known that that was something I think the reason why we talked about the depression in that bio, was that was when and that was around 18 1920. Just about when I was starting college, when I really started to have trouble grappling with my mind, and what it’s like to deal with just an over overrun of anxious thoughts and depressing feelings. And it was really strange when it first came on, like what I couldn’t, I couldn’t put my finger on I would never thought to call it depression but it’s just as every everything negative got the dial got turned up and turned up. And so I started looking for what do I do to combat this? I mean, what what’s out there is a resource and there’s a lot of great resources, but the one that became the most potent for me was was this swedenborg message and originally Yeah, it was too much it was too technical, too theological. I got too wrapped up in it, I just need to back off. And that was when I really started to read a lot of near death experiences. And that was just as easy access to love and and hope. But then I started to to be able to peer into swedenborg message and find not just oh, here’s some sentences on a page, but this is talking about how am I works. And this has given me the tools and the leverage to move things and get out from things that I couldn’t before. And that had an impact on me. And led me to say, Well, if I found something that’s helpful, I better share it with everybody. So we started off the left eye to try to make accessible stuff that people might just walk right by, and not know that there might be something in there not for everyone, maybe but but for whoever needs it, we want them it to be an option. So that’s a little bit of me, and what sort of what drives the work that I’m involved with?

Brian Smith 5:34
Hmm, yeah, I gotta say, you do make swedenborg accessible. And I downloaded the swedenborg books, and I haven’t read them yet. Because swedenborg is hard to read. And so I why I put it as you guys, you guys read swedenborg. So we don’t have to. And the great thing about off the left is is you make it accessible, you make it relatable, and you make it current because swedenborg lived in the 18th century. Yep. So tell us a little bit about Emanuel swedenborg, who he is because I, I’m almost 60 years old, I had never heard of him until I found out about your channel. And now I assume everybody knows who he is. But not everybody does. Know, I

Curtis Childs 6:15
think I think people should. And it’s interesting, you say like, swedenborg is hard to read. So we’ll do it. So you don’t have to. And I don’t think everyone’s got to read swedenborg it’s just like you can you can be really good at basketball without knowing physics. But you’re using physics all the time in basketball. So swedenborg is is describing something that I think is just true. It’s just how reality works. And so he’s he’s got this really comprehensive description to something that nobody else I think is really describing. But doesn’t mean that everybody’s got to end up getting into those books. What we’re trying to do is show you this is where it shows up everywhere in life. So Exactly. Yeah. So that that said, So swedenborg is a fascinating story. And super obscure not many people at all know about him. And I think the quick answer to why is he started to do all this weird spiritual stuff. But he was a scientist who was the scientist and inventor and back in the back in the 18th century. So 1700s, it was a lot easier to do science than it is now. I mean, now you get really smart people who study really hard and can only really master one little bit of a field because the fields have gotten so complex, and the things that people are doing is so technical, so hard to do. Back in swedenborg day, one person could really sort of master all of the disciplines. And that’s I guess, you get this idea of the Renaissance person. And swedenborg was one of those. Yeah, he was. He was in the Swedish government. He was part part of that mechanism. He was inventing things of all kinds. He was studying things, he had published books on every subject from like anatomy, to mining to everything in between, and was getting to be pretty well known in Sweden, and then across Europe, got to hang out with with royalty and important people, and was doing well, but then started, you know, through through this whole series of experiences. And that’s actually very well documented. But I’ll say, he started to change course, he had this event where the spiritual side of reality was made abundantly clear to him. And he suddenly realized that this is where all my training and learning how the physical world works, has been setting me up for because this is the final piece, he was always throughout his life, really interested in the human soul, and where where it is, we would now call consciousness reside, and how does that work, and trying to and he was definitely immersed in Christianity in particular, but religion of his father was a bishop in the Lutheran Church. And swedenborg was, was a practicing Christian and was very interested in reconciling faith and science. Because at the time when he was, this is when you really in earnest had people saying, look, science is debunking religion, that you’ve got these religious claims. But here we are, in this intellectual Renaissance, and we know all this stuff. Now we can explain how things work, we can develop technology, and religious explanations for the world are falling apart under scrutiny. So swedenborg and in the Bible, in particular, people were credit critiquing it as early any value in this document. And what swedenborg was finding is this way that the the tenants of religion, and what science was finding out about the world actually are pointing to a common reality. And so to him, this became his quest, and he’s changed course he started all the publishing he was doing and all the other kind of science stuff now he was just publishing about the Bible and its spiritual meaning Look what it’s actually about. He was publishing about heaven and hell and the life after death. He was and he was a lot of weird stuff. He was talking about how he could talk to angels talk to spirits. Go actually, you know, what we now call an out of body experience and go see what it’s like in the in the afterlife. So obviously, a lot of people thought he’s crazy. And he took his reputation took a hit in the scientific community, and because what, but it also took a hit in a religious community, because while there was a lot of stuff that he was validating of it from a religious viewpoint, a lot of it clashed with the Protestant doctrine of his time, there was there were teachings out there like faith, faith alone, the All you need is faith. And he was adamant that that was toxic, that that was leading people away from the loving life that Jesus Christ was trying to point people towards. He had a he had this audacious claim that, that

there could be multiple religious paths to heaven, that actually what your motivations, are you trying to do what’s right and good, that matters more than what doctrine you have. Not that there isn’t some doctrines that are more accurate than others. But that doesn’t, it doesn’t matter how accurate your ideas are, if you’re doing everything for selfish reasons. That’s what is in your spirit. So this was stuff that made the church manager churches mad at him, sciences laughing at him. And you know, he kind of evaporates. There was some people who, who saw value in what he was doing. But even even beyond that, what you just mentioned, stuff is hard to read. It’s technical, it’s, it’s wild. It’s out there. It’s a really, it takes a very specific kind of person to be willing to give it a chance. Yeah. And so it’s I and the people I work with did. And but once you get in there past, the confusing this past, the strangeness past that, wait, who is this? What you find in there, it’s like, it’s like you found this little weird door in the side of an old building. It’s just kind of an abandoned lot. And you opened it up, and well, this is interesting. And you start going down some musty stairs, and you get to the basement, and it’s just gold everywhere. They just if you imagine like in DuckTales, Scrooge McDuck, like this huge pile of this is like, wow, this is a treasure that should be in museums all over the world. This is, this is huge. But it’s in such a weird little place. That that’s kind of the feeling I get with swedenborg like, wait, don’t walk by this door, there’s more down there or get up there will be a better correspondence. But there’s more in there than you know. So we’re trying to just show people how to get past the initial barriers and into this. And the goal. What I mean by gold, is it stuff that is going to make your life better this stuff is going to answer questions, it’s going to clarify how to be a human being, it’s going to connect you to God. All that stuff, though, you just go look at the comments on our channel. It does these amazing things in people’s lives that I wouldn’t have ever even dreamed it could do. So we’re just gonna we’re just gonna make sure that there’s public access. Yeah, though. So there’s a couple answers to a couple other questions at once. Yeah, no,

Brian Smith 13:00
I appreciate that. And the thing is, you know, I was thinking about this before we started, you know, one thing about swedenborg, when you listen to the channel, he talks over and over again, about correspondences, kind of As above, so below, and science actually started the scientific method with the belief that there was a worldly creator that made an orderly creation. And we could we could understand the creator by understanding the creation, that was the driving force behind the scientific method. And I guess it was around swedenborg time, we started to fall away from that, and and started this idea of science and religion going to different directions. And you know, swedenborg, I think about this, as you said, he was kind of fighting with the scientists, and fighting with the church and think about, like, Jesus was fighting with the church and fighting with the government, you know, so that’s what happens when people are like, revolutionaries, when they get too far out ahead. And that’s the way I’ve used swedenborg is like, way, way, way ahead of his time. And then this other thing, but he was about he was almost 60, when he started having these experiences, is that right? Yeah,

Curtis Childs 14:02
mid mid 50s. Yeah, so it was definitely the second half of life. And, and so the life expectancy in Sweden in his time was like in your 30s. And so he was already ancient. By the time he started, he lived to be somewhere in his 80s. So it was definitely this. This he had had a whole life and career before this even started.

Brian Smith 14:23
Yeah. So today, I know you said you attended a swedenborgian. Church. I know there are a few. There’s actually I think even one in Cincinnati where I live, but they’re very few would you call swedenborg carnism. Is it a religion or philosophy? Or is it What?

Curtis Childs 14:40
Yeah, it’s it’s not a religion. Because those churches that they’re great, but swedenborg didn’t start a church, right? All what he did was he published these books and sent them to influencers. So he was trying to Send them to the leaders of the Lutheran Church. And he thought his hope was in there. Certainly some of his later works are really sort of Christian apologetics and reformation. He was trying to reform the church. And he was hoping he was hoping that his works would have an impact on that. But he also would write homeworks that were aimed at philosophers and try to get those out, he would try to get them to the universities. He was trying to get people to absorb a worldview, I think people have, it’s certainly a worldview that is full of all kinds of religious stuff. It talks about things like why didn’t churches do baptism? Why do they do communion or holy supper, it’s got sort of, it’s got a lot of commentary on what how a church should function and what it’s doing. So it’s, it lends itself to church stuff. But overall, it’s a philosophy because you’ll get, and you’ll have some parts of it that are, you know, I have his book, The Lord, for example, which is, I think it’s like 60%, Bible quotes. I just spent all his time in the Bible trying to show people look this, the Bible is pointing to what I’m saying, I’m not just making this is not something new or a departure. This is actually the Bible is saying, what my books are saying more than it’s saying what Luther stuff is saying right now. So but then you’ll have like, divine love and wisdom, his book appears with maybe quotes it once or twice in an entire, like, multi 100 page volume. So it’s really it was never meant to be a religious system. Primarily, it’s a philosophy that he was hoping would be adopted by existing religious systems. So I think there’s there’s been throughout the history of since swedenborg, died. You had early followers of his started reading groups and things. And then at some point after that, there was I think there was and I don’t I’m not an expert on this, this history of, of swedenborg influence. But there, I think there was a group who was saying, okay, should we start our own church based on this stuff, and some people wanted to some people didn’t. So they did. And there’s been mild success for those churches there. Yeah. There’s they’ve always had small numbers. There’s also been a second track of people who have been influenced by swedenborg, and gone on to influence the world but weren’t within a church system. The most famous one is probably Helen Keller. She was a devout lit reader of swedenborg, he wrote books, one called how I would help the world, which is about how swedenborg opened her mind, and made and actually was part of her drive to do what she did in the world. There have been actually a ton of other ones that we’ve done programs on this, you could go throughout history, a lot of artists and things would have been directly influenced by swedenborg, sometimes by people in those churches, but they’ve all existed outside the swedenborgian church world. So it’s a little of both, it’s still, it’s still all been relatively small compared to what I think it could do for the world. So we’re still trying to find out ways. And now the internet is obviously really helpful in getting an idea ideas like this out there. But also, it’s just people are people think for themselves these days, more than I think they used to, yeah, than it used to be. What’s this, something new couldn’t be right, unless my religious leaders or somebody are telling me it’s true. But now it’s more, what people will do is they’ll see something, and they’ll think about it, and they’ll make decisions. And that’s actually where swedenborg material thrives. Because he was always telling his readers, like, you’ve got to use your own rationality. And once you get into the ideas, there’s an order to them, and an ability to them and an effectiveness. And it just light bulb goes off. And you say, Oh, this is this is something. So I mean, that that’s how it has been for me and a lot of others.

Brian Smith 18:49
Yeah, I will put myself in that category of someone who’s been greatly influenced by swedenborg. And I talked to people about him all the time. And I and I refer people to your programs, you know, all the time. I’ll say this program this friggin up, I’ll post on my Facebook page, because it’s so enlightening. It’s so you don’t have to. This is my opinion. Anyway, we don’t have to accept everything as a system anymore. We can we can take what makes sense to us. And there’s so much in swedenborg. That makes sense. And I asked you earlier before we get started, you know, because I told you I consider myself a former Christian, I was raised as a fundamentalist. I was raised to read the Bible, literally. And none of that stuff makes sense to me anymore. And so I kept getting farther and farther away from what the Church teaches. And finally, at some point, I just say, I don’t consider myself Christian anymore, because I don’t believe in, for example, substitutionary atonement, and I believe Jesus died for the sins of the world. And I believe in eternal Heaven and Hell, I don’t believe in an angry God that punishes us, which is what a lot of what the Church teaches. And so at some point, I just okay, I’m not a Christian anymore. Um, would you classifies swedenborg as a Christian, or? I don’t know, you know, I’m asking you to say what he would say, but I think it’s interesting that he got it. You know, kind of thrown out of the church almost.

Curtis Childs 20:02
Yeah, his works were and I don’t know, all the details of it was works were put on trial in Sweden for heresy. And he was fine. He was pretty well connected. So he wasn’t in too much of a imminent threat. But at the time, the church and the government were the same thing. So right, you, you cross one, you cross the other. And he certainly made all kinds of statements that were illegal in that way. He did a lot of his publishing in London, and in Amsterdam, because those places had more freedom of the press at the time. To answer your question, though, according to the criteria that you just gave, you’re not a Christian, because you don’t believe in vicarious atonement, and all those principles you just listed? No, swedenborg wasn’t a Christian, because he didn’t believe in those things that you’re talking about. But according to his own definition, he was a Christian, his last book that he published was called true Christianity. Yeah. And in there, there’s been a lot of people saying, Who are you you’re not even a member of the clergy, or you’re not your ideas are heretical. And in the title page of that he wrote a manual swedenborg servant of the Lord Jesus Christ, right, right. Because what are you gonna say to that, and, and so clean board would say, might say you are a Christian,

Brian Smith 21:21

Curtis Childs 21:22
because to him that you listed ideas, right with sweet, sweet Montez are two things that make us human, our will, right our feelings, and then our intellect, or our beliefs.

What, Matt, what makes you who you are is your will, what you love what you care about what you’re trying to do. your beliefs are a key part of that, but they aren’t the if the will want something, it will bend the mind to get justification for whatever it wants. So and really what for him, the church, whether or not you’re a Christian, whether or not you’re in the church, the church, and its smallest unit is inside an individual. So you could have any Sunday, a bunch of people sitting in pews next to each other. Some people may have the church in them, and some people might not. And the church is primarily driven by your heart and what you love. And this is why Jesus is always preaching repentance and the Pharisees. They were nailing the doctrinal stuff, weren’t they? Yeah, they had crossed every t they dotted every I, they were observing Every Witch, well, they did everything. And that was the only people Jesus ever really got mad at was them. And why is that? It’s because they, they had, they didn’t have love, they didn’t have the love that he was talking about. But that is what Jesus Christ is you. That’s what God is his love for the whole human race. And so if you it doesn’t matter what your religious ideas are, if they’re not founded on that love, every one of them is corrupt. Because if you’re, if you’re a real super religious person, meaning you have all these, all the concepts that you said that, you know, you’re not believing that, okay, so somebody believes him, they have the whole Bible in their mind. But what they love is their own eminence, and having power and getting to tell people how to live their lives. And that’s what they’re getting their thrills and their joy from and the reason they like the religion thing is because it puts them in a position of power, and they kind of imagine an afterlife, or they rule over everybody else, and everyone that they hate goes to hell, that is the opposite of Jesus Christ. And so if that’s what’s driving, you it doesn’t matter. You put put all the swedenborg even says that in the afterlife. All the ideas you have that don’t agree with your Will you just lose them, they eventually go away, because you you go to what you love. That is what what defines you. So I would say that what would swedenborg define himself as a Christian? And what he would say makes you a Christian? Is not that not that it doesn’t, that there isn’t an important role that the right beliefs can play. Otherwise, he wouldn’t have taken all this time to carefully parse out this theology, and explain like, for example, the vicarious atonement that you’re talking about that Jesus took on? He said, No, that’s not what he’s talking about. But here is what it’s talking about what Jesus Christ did do, which week that’s that’s a whole talk in itself, right? But it’s something here’s, there’s not, oh, the angry God that punishes us. No, that’s not true. But here’s why you read about an angry God in the Bible and what it’s talking about. So yes, he was he was trying to plant a flag and say that stuff that you guys are peddling right now that allows for you to commit all these atrocities and creates this loveless world. And it’s just really this hierarchy of power and money. That’s not Christianity. This that’s actually following Jesus and the message that He gave His Christianity but what Jesus was doing with the Pharisees were they come and say, hey, it’s the Sabbath. Don’t you help That person. And he’s saying, He’s saying, like, it’s not about the rules. It’s about the people. I mean, I’m paraphrasing, but in the story was a man made for Sabbath or was that was made for men. And then there’s a woman caught in adultery and they’re saying, you know you better you better kill her. That’s the law. And he and he says, I’m getting goosebumps just talking about it, because it’s so obviously this story about what’s important and about love. And he’s he, they’re all saying, well, you’re not following the rules. And he Jesus Christ, God is saying, I’m gonna tell you something about the rules. Right now. What’s Come on what’s reasonable? Okay, she made a mistake, has any of any of you not made a mistake? That’s what it’s the love that should have the truth at its disposal rather than the other way around? Yeah, it shouldn’t be that the ideas are putting us into this fundamentalist fanaticism. That is really a smokescreen that lacks our desire to control and attack each other really have the reins and that was swedenborg. His primary enemies were what he called, he calls them love of self and love of the world. I know that love of self people get antsy when I say that because it sounds like I know people talk a lot about like self love like because you beat yourself up in your head about I’m no good but you are good. It’s not that love of self is like love of your own superiority to other people’s love of dominating other people. Basically, I am more important than anyone else that’s that’s like the core of love of self and and love of the world is not like, Oh, I love to go visit Paris. But it’s not materialistic gratification that either of those two are driving you, they will corrupt every religious principle. Yeah, doesn’t matter. You can fill your head with every every verse of the Bible, every bit of every sacred texts in the world, that stuff is in charge, you’re in trouble. So to be a Christian? Well, you got to look at what’s what’s Jesus Christ really about? And when when somebody says, What do all the law and all the profits hang off of love God, love thy neighbor, go learn what those things do. Otherwise, you got all this stuff and nowhere to hang it? Yeah,

Brian Smith 27:03
I would I and when I say that, it’s it’s really, and it’s something that a lot of lot of people struggle with. Because we still consider ourselves to be followers of Jesus, I still consider myself to be a disciple of Jesus. But when people hear the word Christian in today’s modern times, and they think of the church, I am not a part of that church. And I like the way swedenborg uses the word church. And this is something you learn when you start to get into swedenborg. There’s different terminology, you have to learn. And the church is actually within people. The church is not the building. It’s not the organization. The church is within us. That’s it. So he uses the word differently. Now, swedenborg also uses the word, the Lord a lot. And he talks about Jesus says the Lord. So explain to people what swedenborg view of Jesus is.

Curtis Childs 27:45
It can be confusing for people, sometimes we’ll get people coming at our channel, and saying, Well, why if swedenborg is is so great, why didn’t you ever talk about Jesus? Why didn’t ever talk about Jesus? Why did he say Jesus? And he does sometimes, but what what you need to know the rights early and one of his earliest works is, and this I think this was a common practice in his day is, and again, everything he wrote was in Latin, so it’s about the translation, everything, but he says, When I’m when I’m talking about Jesus, I’m going to say the Lord. So whenever you hear the Lord, in swedenborg, works, that’s Jesus. And for swedenborg, there’s there was this Christian idea that there are these separate persons of God, right, there’s a father and a son and a Holy Spirit. And they’re one but they’re sort of different. And I, there’s a lot of interpretations of that. To swedenborg. There’s one God, and God is one in the same way that we are one. So we have a spirit, and a body, and then our actions. So if you want to break it down like that, so you have the father being the spirit, so the father is the, the God that you the entirety of God. So this is more than that I’m gonna be able to understand and you’re gonna be able to understand, Jesus is like the is the body of God. So if, like, if I’m thinking about really trying to know who you are, Brian, I could do a lot of stuff. I can go talk to people who knew you when you were a kid, I can I can interview you, you talk to you for a while. There’s a lot of stuff I can try to do, to I can study things you’ve made to try to understand you. If I really wanted to interact with you, I go to where you are, where’s your body? And we will talk are those zoom makes it so now I just got to be pointed at the right camera. Yeah. But what I’m trying to say is tell me if this is making sense. What I’m trying to say is there’s you and then there’s your body where you are and we know that we’re we’re more than our body but the body is important, right? So Jesus is, in essence, the way that we can connect with the infinite God.

Announcer 29:55
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Curtis Childs 30:56
So Jesus is this point that somehow God did this amazing trick of Hey, I’m going to be able to present myself to you in a way that you can interact with. So that’s Jesus and and the Holy Spirit is the activity coming out of God. So once we were called divine providence, how God affects the world around us to lead us and teach us and do everything like that. So Jesus is to swedenborg Jesus’s god this is and and the incarnation of Jesus on earth wasn’t the start of Jesus like the divine human, which was already a thing. But Jesus was this particular way in which God had to, again, the human race was in danger of those two loves that I talked about love of self love of the world, taking over everything, like we had been so gone, we had gotten so enamored with this warlike, greedy way of life that that really, there was this whole, there’s real danger that that human beings would all destroy ourselves and that we would, we would lose our ability to love and understand what’s true. So Jesus had to come and rebalance everything. Yeah, praise and rescue us really redeem us all that stuff you hear about it, just the the sort of what’s under the hood, how did it happen is much different than there was God and God was so angry at us that he couldn’t help himself, and was going to just kill us all. And Jesus like it, there’s so many holes in that I don’t have to worry because I here I am Curtis, and I need if I get mad at my daughter, that’s that’s on me. Like I shouldn’t be doing that. Right? And the more that I if I lost my The more I lose my temper, the more people are like, well, you you know, you’ve got some anger issues, you got to get that sorted out. And and you know, you can’t, especially at a kid, but at any point, it’s not a good luck to lose your temper if you’re saying God lost his temper so much that he’s going to kill all these humans that, like don’t know what they’re doing. That makes sense, doesn’t make sense to me.

Brian Smith 32:53
Yeah, it doesn’t. And that brings me to a couple things I want to talk about is because that causes a lot of people to walk away from God, from the church, from the Bible, from Jesus from everything, because this this, this presentation of God is angry, out of control father, that is you know, yelling at is not only yelling at a toddler is going to tie her up and torture her forever. Right. And I remember when I was walking out of that I’m like, this doesn’t make any sense. And I hear swedenborg talk about God. And there’s this description in one of your shows where he says something like God could never even look at you with the cross look or something that that affects.

Curtis Childs 33:29
Yeah, that’s in his book, true Christianity. 56. I just know that because that’s such a great quote. He says, in reality, it’s impossible for God to even look at us with a frown. Because to do that would be against his own nature. Because God is love. So yeah, go ahead.

Brian Smith 33:45
No, that’s that’s fantastic. And I was reading something last night in another book, and they were describing this, this idea of God is like being the ultimate, loving, caring parent, that no matter what you do is always like, you’re always welcome to come back. You’re always, you know, quote, forgiven. That that and that. And that’s this idea I get from God from swedenborg, which is the exact opposite of what a lot of us are taught by the church.

Curtis Childs 34:11

what what do we admire, and human beings, like when we watch if you’re watching a movie, and you see a parent who, even if or anybody who there’s a character who’s doing something wrong, and the character seems unlovable, but someone’s able to love them anyway, and express goodness to them anyway? Don’t we admire that? Isn’t that something that makes you say, Wow, that is that person is a bigger person than I am? Yeah. Is God not gonna be better at that than there’s something that we admire in people that God can’t pull off? But also, whose fault is it that we all exist in the first place? Right? Like, why are we here? And if you think about God, you just think about your own kid and if you think about the heartbeat When you’ve got a parent who their little kid grows up, and you have them as like a one and two year old, and they’ve got all this innocence, and it’s just like joy, and you just are feeling like, they’ve got a, they got to do great, let’s say that they, they, they some hard things happen or something and they go down the wrong path and start to get into all kinds of criminal activity and released and they cut off contact with you. And it’s you still you really want him to come back, you know, you you would be you’re going to be devastated. And you think about God have it where do we get our love for our own kids for from, you know, as God, we are going to we’re going to love more than God is where where we get our love from? So I guess what I’m trying to say is God is can’t just, oh, you’re gonna go get tortured in hell, if they’re if somebody is getting tortured God’s there, and it’s hurting him more than than anybody. Yeah, so anything else wouldn’t, wouldn’t make sense. Or it would be that God wasn’t responsible, like I think about I haven’t had an aquarium, right. And when you’re going to get an aquarium, well, you got to follow some rules if you’re going to make life okay for these fish, because remember, they were just like swimming in a stream somewhere, and or in a breeders tank or whatever. And if you get an aquarium, first of all, you got to know there’s only a certain number of fish you can have in there per gallon, right? An ancient fish per gallon, otherwise, you’re risking the water quality and overcrowding, that’s going to lead to stress. If you if you have a fish tank, you better make sure that you’ve got enough time and energy to take care of it. And don’t get more fish than you can handle. Well, if if people just kind of get lost by the wayside, and God just oh, well, you didn’t follow the rules. So I’m kicking you off. And it’s like God put too many fish in the tank. And he can’t give us all because Wouldn’t it have been better if he never made a lot of us and just made enough that he could really make sure everybody did what was right. So obviously, God’s kind of has to have a plan to care for everyone. And can’t.

it all falls apart?

Brian Smith 37:03
If he does. And I tell you when I was a kid, as you were saying, given that analogy I was I was five years I was less than five years old. They were taking me to Sunday school and I’m hearing this stuff and I’m like, why did you even make me? You know why? Why would you put me in this risk of going into eternal torment. I regret it being born. It was, it was a terrible thing, I think to say to someone. And so when I read someone like swedenborg that describes what I believe is the true guide, the guide, the guide of love and a creator who cares for us. And he would never turn an angry itis. It’s just that’s why that episode is always stood out to me because I just I was like, this makes sense to me. Yeah. But it brings us back to the Bible, which a lot of us are caught up on because this God in the Bible, you know, he makes Adam and Eve, he puts the apple in the garden and he says don’t eat it and they eat it. And so they kicked him out. And then you know, mankind’s evil and he destroys all of them in the flood. And this drives a lot of people away from the church as well. I know, I know, people that have said, I have a good friend that said I was reading Noah’s Ark one day to serve Noah’s Ark, and he was an evangelical Christian works for the church. And just as an adult, when your mind reads that, it’s like no, and he rejects it. So he just rejects the whole thing. But as I’m listening to swedenborg, one of the things I love is there’s an internal and an external reading of the Bible, the word and you guys break down some of these stories, and totally redeemed them. By the creation story, Noah’s Ark, I was talking before we got on Ethan baylands ass, you know, and we let in Sunday school, we’d love to talk about biomes ask us, we could say the word ass. But even that story of the talking donkey, which makes no sense, you know, from from a literal point of view, you guys break that down? So talk about that internal external reading?

Curtis Childs 38:51
Yeah, actually, you know, reading the Bible, literally, as I understand it is a relatively new phenomenon. This is not how people used to read it. And I think the antidote to reading the Bible literally is just open it and start reading it, you’re gonna find so many things that make a literal reading impossible. And it just seems really obvious that it’s not even meant for you just opens to the creation story, you get these two creation stories back to back, you have stuff that doesn’t make sense. And it sequence very quickly. You can tell this is this is not what I was meant for. And if it was, if it was literal, if it was just supposed to be I’m telling you exactly what’s going on. The order doesn’t make any sense. What Why are we following the story of these few people in there? Why isn’t God saying this? do this right now. This is this is what you should do when you’re 13. This is what you should do when you’re 14. It’s just the whole thing is not set up like that. And even Jesus goes and talks about the inner meaning of scriptures when he’s on the road to a mass. And he says he opened up to the disciples everything about him in the law, the prophet Well, there’s no Jesus in the Old Testament, but here he is saying look, this is about me. So there is there is precedent there’s it is a book that is written in the language of God, which is what swedenborg calls correspondences. It’s the same language that you dream in. And it is the the language by which spiritual things and physical things can communicate. It’s and it’s actually a language that is written into everything. And that nature is a correspondence, just like the Bible is this is why you have all these religions around the world, where things like worshiping in a grove of trees or worshiping on a mountain, that these are sacred things to them, because there’s not just the Bible, is this. This in index of it is this bringing together of it, but it’s describing something that’s there and everything. So, correspondences is by the way, the the main undertaking that swedenborg went through. And when he published his first book, secrets of heaven, Volume One, he was going through the first chapter of Genesis, the first chapters of Genesis explaining what they mean. And this was something he continued on most of his work is explaining these parts of the Bible. And really quickly what I love about the internal sense, what makes me say, like, Oh, this is it, this has got to be it, because not only does it give you something that is intellectually and emotionally satisfying and insightful, but it also solves the frame of reference problem. So we’re here going through life. And it’s hard. And we struggle through all these things, and we need help from God, we’re feeling like God, where are you? Like, why aren’t you helping me right now? So God gives us this book, the Bible. So much of it is irrelevant to me. What? What do I need to know about Cain and Abel? Right? I get that it’s a I need to know about me. Okay, I’m well, and if we’re all God’s children, and this is God’s message, the whole human race? Why do some people get all these chapters I’m not in there. There’s so many people that aren’t in there, what’s, how is this and so much, we’re going to tell us all about how they built this one tabernacle, and why they should follow that. And you’re going to go these genealogies and do line by line by line and not mention any of the women and then with all this stuff, what you’re wasting time Well, this is your gift. To me. The Christian story is about you, that God does not talk about finite things, God is infinite. When God opens his mouth, he speaks infinite things. So everything in that book applies infinitely to everything. So the creation story is not the story, even if it was an accurate story about how the universe was made. Why do I care how the universe was made?

You know, there’s a long time ago. And it’s, it’s, that’s interesting. But it does, it’s not going to help me here as I’m in the depths of despair. And then I don’t care. And that’s not useful. But what the creation story is, is this is if you’re you’ve ever wondered what’s happening in your life, it’s the creation story. In those days, when when we are dark and void, when we are living initially, you start out you know, in your teenage years, or whatever we are in this ego driven, self centered, materialistic way of life. That’s where we are. And the whole point of God’s effort is I’m going to wake you up and bring you into the light. That’s what God is doing. Every day. Every struggle that we have is part of this difficult process, all those struggles and battles that you’re hearing about in the Bible, that that the Holy Land that we’re trying to get to, that’s in you, just like the churches in you there, there are there are these there are these battles that are happening there inside of you, there are these journeys, you were in the wilderness, there are these temptations, the whole story is about the absolutely complex world of God, rescuing us from all this stuff that that that’s trying to get us and so it’s in this language that is hard to understand initially. But as you start to get how it goes and as you start to understand that it speaks really to your heart ever have you ever read a part of the Bible in the Bible? It’s really a lot of it can be really difficult to stomach there’s times when I’m opening it up and I just feel frustrated at how it seems violent and seems nonsensical. It seems so dry and it just not what any but there’s other times when I’ll just read these verses, and it’s not even really about what they’re about but they just make like a bring me to tears. Something about him. I think about the one where the thief that’s getting hanged with Jesus says, Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom. Something about that like okay goosebumps and and of Revelation. When talking about the clear river or the water of life, I’ll just get these feelings around them. And that’s because there’s a part of us that understands what’s really talking about everything in there is the thief, the river, that’s the New Jerusalem. This is all stuff. That’s that’s written into the your story.

Brian Smith 45:00

Curtis Childs 45:01
the Bible is your story.

Brian Smith 45:02
Yeah, it’s written in the language of metaphor, which might the modern mind has trouble understanding, I think the people at the time understood it. And it was beautiful. That made sense. And then we come along. And as you said, it’s a relatively new development where people started reading literally. But again, you grew up in the church the way I did, we were told, that’s the way it was always. So I love about your show and your channel, is you take these stories, and when I read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, he, we, when I read it, just on the surface, I’m like, Who are these people? But when you guys break it down, it’s like, every, every character in every story is an element of ourselves. So the story and so when you talked earlier, at the very beginning, we talked about your journey. And swedenborg tells us how our mind works. When he tells us these stories over again and says, here’s the correspondence that Adam is represented, and Eve is representing this, and the serpent is representing this, these are all elements of what’s going on with us. And then it’s like, oh, and so I get so excited when I hear when I guess I have to share it with everybody. And I’m like, I hope somebody listens to them. Because it’s just, it’s beautiful, that that it it does tell us our story, who we are individually, you know, what’s going on within us and this journey that we’re all on from the ego driven thing. back to where we originally came from.

Curtis Childs 46:21
Yeah, it’s, it’s really, it goes from being a burden to a joy. And, and it’s, it’s a way that when it says like Jesus comes in the clouds. swedenborg says that the clouds are talking about the literal meaning of Scripture. And that in there is the potential for us that you can meet God in the book, like when you’re saying, Oh, actually, this does make sense. This is suddenly like, I understand how I’m being cared for. And that’s like, a, we’re reaching Jesus through the book, because it’s giving us this window into how God operates and what God is doing.

Brian Smith 46:57
I guess that’s a swedenborg talk is like a decoder ring for the Bible. You know, when we read it, we read it, it’s like, this doesn’t make any sense. And then I watched your episodes I don’t like I said, I don’t read swedenborg so don’t think I’m the smart guy that read swedenborg but I watch off the left eye. But when you watch the episodes, you’re like, yeah, this this makes you know, this makes sense to me. And you know, a couple of concepts like second coming, you know, that we heard as kids no judgment, you know, all that kind of stuff. But let’s talk about let’s talk about like the concept of heaven and hell. Because again, that’s that’s a pretty important thing, right? And growing up binary, you’re you’re good, you’re in you’re bad. You’re out, you worship Jesus, you’re and you don’t worship Jesus out, what would what is swedenborg his concept of this idea of heaven? And Hell,

Curtis Childs 47:44
yeah, it was a great one to touch on it. He’s most none of his books were that popular, but his most popular one was called heaven and hell. So it’s a good place to start. I want to be right before I jump into that, I want to say, if you’re looking for an easy way to start seeing that the literal sense of the Bible lends itself to some kind of internal sense. Do you remember before how I talked about you have the your your will or your emotion and and your understanding of that there’s these two primary parts of being a human being, look at the didactic nature of the Bible, how there’s always these pairings that go start reading the Psalms, they’ll say, your your justice is on the hills and your judgment on the valleys, like there’s always these two pairs. And we’ve looked at each of those because it has reference to the two parts of us. This is what’s going on in your heart. This is what’s going on in your mind. So just start to read the Bible that you’ll see it’s always this, this pairing of things. So that’s that’s just a little like, little cute. Yeah, have heaven in hell. When, when the pleasure of evil is felt as good, that is hell. That’s a quote from swedenborg. So you can be in hell. Today, when when I’m in the hell is made up of a series of feelings that are all related to this love of self love of the world that I talked about. Heaven is related to the two great commandments love of the Lord in love with the neighbor. So we we can be heaven and hell are are primarily just like the church is a state of heart and mind, Heaven and Hell are states of heart and mind. The couple of important things to clear up around that so first of all, Hell is not a God is punishing you thing that the hell that we talked about is when you haven’t heard defined by what you what you make the center of your life. And if you make hellish stuff, which is everything that you think of like being being mean to people, harming people, exploiting people, whatever it is, if your joy in either being empathetic to people or actually joy in harming them, you make that the center of your life when you make that a center of your life by willingly and intentionally doing it and justifying it That’s that it’d be that is hell, like you’re in hell there. And that kind of life attracts misery to it. And you might have times when you’re feeling good, but then there’s just there’s always this, that this negativity follows that stuff, right. And the more you think of, the more ego driven you are, the less at peace you are. Because even if you’re doing well, as soon as somebody doesn’t give you the praise that you want, or as soon as somebody crosses you in some way, you just swedenborg says, What is more easily upset than this than this low of self. So you have this stuff, and you can make hell or you can make heaven in that state of Heaven is.

It’s driven by love of serving people, that is the core of heaven that you there are different kinds of, I’m just trying to think of where you’d start because there’s such a complex concept, but it is about this. There’s different kinds of joy in life, Heaven and Hell are both centered around different kinds of joy. So Hell is centered around the joy in evil. Like there’s, there’s a reason why everyone does terrible things all the time. There’s a pleasure in revenge, right? There is a pleasure in exploiting people, there’s a pleasure in dominating people this, this, those are the pleasures of insanity, as swedenborg calls them that that makes up hell. There are other kinds of pleasures, though, if you think about the joy, knowing you made a difference for somebody, we’ve all experienced that at some time. You know, I know I did that. And it may be it sometimes it’s really vivid. Sometimes it’s kind of mute. That is, that’s having their the joy in doing something good for somebody is having. So the more you cultivate that, and the more you work on that, the more that what follows that is peace, because you grow to lose your desire to really worry about where you end up in the hierarchy of human beings. You lose your desire to control everything, you start to trust God, you find joy and doing good things that are inherently healthy. It allows you to have relationships where you’re loved and love and return and brings you into this state that’s called heaven. And the more that you following the other stuff, it brings you into the state of it’s called hell and so then if we get into that so the in this world we can vacillate between heaven and hell, and you you can have two people right in a church pew or in a room and one is deeply immersed in hell and the other is deeply immersed in heaven in the spiritual world, like I said, what you love makes you who you are. So in the spiritual world what you love the spiritual world is made by an ordered god it just like the physical world is so spiritual world, which is the afterlife or whatever you wanna call it swedenborg calls it the spiritual worlds and that’s what I was calling which will be like the the spiritual dimension just like here you have the physical dimension, which is not just the earth but it’s the entire universe. So the spiritual dimension has its own set of laws just like we have laws here and in there and now they correspond this language of correspondence right so in correspond means what what something does in the spiritual world its correspondence does in the physical world, for example, what gravity does here love does in the spiritual world, so gravity as I understand it, I know we’re evolving on that gravity is what why am I where I am is because of gravity. Basically, guy gravity is keeping me on the center of the earth am I pushing against gravity locomotion, that kind of stuff is moving me so that’s it’s also gravity is what pulls masses of things together. It’s why there was a planet right? gravity pulls it together. Love is like spiritual gravity. So there, what you love pulls you into community with other people who love the same thing as you. So if you have a bunch of people together, who all love serving other people and being useful and the joy in them and aren’t all hung up on themselves that sounds like heaven to me.

Brian Smith 53:50

Curtis Childs 53:50
You think about your knowing your neighbor cares about you. Just like you know, you can pull off the road on any stop on the highway and people there are going to care about you and be nice. And if you’re completely self centered, and you don’t care about anyone, you’ll do anything you can to get ahead you like making fun of people all that and you’re around a bunch of other people that are like you that’s that’s how hell right? That’s not gonna. So that is the basic principle behind heaven and hell and hell naturally. God is God is love of other people like Jesus, we talked about this Jesus is love, right? So when you’re in this state of heaven, it’s it’s not even your love that’s going through it’s God’s love so that that state naturally draws you to god this is this is you form a partnership because you you love you have the same interests. You get the same hobbies, right? You get along hell that I don’t care about other people. It rejects God. Like it doesn’t it doesn’t like that. You know that the light shine in the darkness and the darkness could not comprehend it. Because you’re every evil has its corresponding falsity. Right. So if I want to harm people, I have to justify it to myself and Some way not to say, well, it’s not that bad or they deserved it or I can get away with it, whatever it is, the people love darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. So in hell when God approaches God being love and truth, You don’t like it? Because the truth, for example, that everybody is just as conscious as you are. Everybody just as a human being that deserves the same amount of love and respect that you do. If you have built your life, around harming other people and exploiting them and believing you’re better than them. Do you like that truth when it comes? How does it feel? Yeah, I feel like heaven doesn’t feel like hell. Yeah. But if you if you care about the happiness of your, your neighbor, as much as you care about your own happiness, when that truth approaches that everyone, how do you love it? You welcome it. It’s like the sun coming out of the clouds. And you love it, and you soak it up. So that is I’ll stop there for now. But that is to give you sort of what’s what’s the building blocks of this? What? What is happening? What is hell? That’s it? Right? Yeah, it doesn’t matter how deep you are into hell, God is still loving you and trying to make your life as happy as it can be. But there are limits on how happy you can be when you made hell. The thing you love, because loving that stuff inherently limits your joy, it causes problems. Yeah, so So anyway, that’s a little bit of a mini crash course on what heaven and hell are so

Brian Smith 56:29
my understanding is that after when we die, when we pass, we go to like, kind of a middle ground, right? And then we kind of we kind of migrate to where we naturally fit in, whether that’s to us up or down, you know, just for simplicity sake, whether it’s upward towards heaven, or downward toward toward hell, is that correct? And God pretty much tries to make us as happy as he can. Wherever we end up.

Curtis Childs 56:55
Yeah, so no, even God cannot force you to love anything. Right? Human beings have this you’ve probably heard about free choice freewill. There is an essential component of being a conscious human being that is freedom and God does not violate that cannot or else Or else we wouldn’t be people you that that is essential. So even even though God can really want us not to love certain things, he can’t stop us. So, yes, wherever if you love a certain thing, right? God can’t stop you from loving it. God will. Hell is actually right. It’s a mechanism, the spiritual world place of hell that swedenborg saw. It’s a area designed to make the people in it as happy as you can be while you love evil things. Which is not which is to them even have there’s at the end of I think it’s divine love and wisdom. No, I think it’s divine providence. swedenborg says, has this funny encounter with a couple of people who are in hell. And he says, at the top of he says, forgive me for writing the rest this to fill out the rest of the page. Because there you had to have like your pages filled out for the printer. And he says there’s a couple of spirits from hell, so spirits being people who have died, right bodies and spirits. So metal people from hell came to swedenborg. And he wanted to talk to him. And he said, Okay, well, what do you want to say? And he says, Well, you the spirits from hell are saying, well, you’re writing a lot about heaven, and how great it is. Well write write something about hell to and swedenborg says, Okay, what do you want me to write? And they say, Well, everybody gets to live in whatever pleasures they really want. Even even if these pleasures are filthy, there’s just problems. There’s certain limits, you can’t go past. And we can’t really help it. So we get punished but and they’re basically like plugging the hellish way of life. They’re saying, like, Don’t Don’t be square, come down here. You know, and it’s, it’s a striking example of, even though even it actually during that encounter, swedenborg says, Well, if you if you can’t help hurting people, when you see them, like you’re just like an animal, and they get really mad and try to attack it, right. There’s no ego driven, right? But it shows two things. One, it shows like how destructive that kind of Hell is. But the other one shows that those people are not you think if there was a couple of spirits from hell coming up, but they would say, Please, we’re sorry, save us from this torment that we’re in your own. Nobody’s in hell unless you you’re there because you love it. Right. And it might well who would ever love getting tormented because it’s not if you love but a lot of people love evil. A lot of people love harming people. You hear like the stuff about the worst serial killers. There’s a lot of them that are like, they don’t do it because they have to they do it because they love to. Yeah. And if you’re going to do that, there are certain restrictions, you first of all, you can’t be around people because you’re going to hurt, you’re going to hurt them and we don’t want to get hurt. And also that stuff is so toxic, it’s going to attract all the other worst people around you. So God is like managing and trying to make the happiest existence you can have given the fact that you’ve made this terrible thing that’s the center of your life.

Brian Smith 59:56
Now does swedenborg ever talk about second chances, people I mean, I know people don’t want to get out of hell necessarily because it’s what they love. But it’s God’s still drawing them. And I know he doesn’t talk much about reincarnation, I don’t think so. Let’s turn to questions together.

Curtis Childs 1:00:12
Well, the whole the whole I, and this is his puzzle a lot of people because, well, so first of all the the whole of what God is doing through our entire life here is dissuading us from loving evil, you think about well, isn’t my house, isn’t my life supposed to be organized so that I’m happy? why are all these negative things happening? Who knows why particular events are going on? There’s a huge complex mechanism there. But in general, one, one thing that’s happening is, God is making it so that our life gives us a distaste for evil in to the extent that we can. So God is always trying there. And then in the world of spirits that you’re talking about, that is sort of like a centrifuge. So they’re just like in a centrifuge, heavy stuff, falls, light stuff goes to the top, there, there’s, there’s this whole period where it’s like, okay, in the afterlife, we’re here, we’re all kind of a mix of good, good and evil stuff, right? That that’s a problem in the spiritual world. Because that if you have both of them, they kind of start to pull you apart. So you’ve got to commit to one or the other. So there’s this whole process in the world of spirits to try to get everyone to commit to what’s good and true. And then if, then, so So there’s all these chances to try to end but then if somebody’s still choosing Hell, I don’t know. Like he doesn’t he at some points, he says, You can’t. You can’t, you won’t change or not, you can’t, but you won’t, you will. But then there’s also a lot of other places where he’ll talk about, you know, people who even their everything negative that nothing, that hurts can be allowed, unless some good is coming out of it. So even in hell, people are through these negative experiences they’re bringing on themselves are being purged of their desire for a particular kind of evil. So he does talk about people even there and even being brought up to where they can do some more menial, but useful things so they can get some of the joy of usefulness, because Heaven is all doing useful things with them. Everybody’s always improving their I don’t know is whether like, I would think, you know, if you think about what we’re talking about before with God and made each one of us and it’s like, going to think about the grief of God. We’re talking about grief, the grief of God of losing anybody to this right. Totally limited life. When is God gonna stop wanting to bring them into heaven? That’s, that’s all that the universe exists to provide a heaven for the human race. That’s, that’s what Providence is doing. So when, when is God gonna say well, okay, I give up on you. Right? That’s the whole point of anything. Yeah. So I would think, eventually, and we’ve got a problem to solve. But right now the human race is trying to solve the Coronavirus and figure out how to do so we’ve got the best minds on it, and they’re trying to solve it. Right? And you know, the smarter people are in the better technology they have, the better they can solve it. So God’s got a problem. All these people are loving, he think he’s not working on a solution. Like, what else? What’s he doing that? Like? What, what’s he spending his time? Yeah,

Brian Smith 1:03:09
there’s a guy that a philosopher the same as Thomas Talbot wrote a book called The inescapable love of God. And this is a concept that I love. Because what he says basically, you know, God never gives up on us, you know, this, this is one lifetime, but you know, we got never gives up on us. And if, if you are loving evil, you are diluted, no one who has a full picture of who or what God is, could resist guy. That’s why the books called the inescapable love of God. So there’s some sort of a shadow, there’s some sort of a veil, that we don’t really understand what who or what God is because we, we’d have to be attracted to God, if we really understood it. So here’s his thing is God’s always working to tear that delusion down that illusion down so they can be? And once we fully understand that, you know, how could you not? I mean, that’s because that’s who we are guides our Creator.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:58
Yeah, well,

Curtis Childs 1:04:00
isn’t it true that the more you learn about people, the more you understand that love, right, then they say like, if people have prejudices, that solution is getting more in contact with people that they don’t usually get in contact with. If it just the more you like, the more you think you have a person in your life who you’re like, maybe like, in business with you and or you have some kind of contentious relationship, but the more you understand their life and their story, and what the more you know, the more love fills it. So I think this is exactly like what you’re talking about.

Brian Smith 1:04:32
What people reject is this false image of God, this guy, this angry guy that we were taught about this judgemental guy. I think that’s what people reject. Oh,

Curtis Childs 1:04:40
yeah, for sure. And why wouldn’t you? Yeah, is that not fair? It’s not good. Like, but I also isn’t it fascinating that God is, if I was that lovable. I would not be hiding it. What I mean is Curtis, if I was just if anybody really knew They just couldn’t help but just totally loved me. I’d be like walking around like everyone look how good I am. But here’s God, who is that inescapable, but his his back and way off? In swedenborg says that’s because God doesn’t want a love that was forced on us, right? Because that’s not really love. You think about short Love is a great thing. But but so is freedom. So is a lot, the greatest thing is love that is freely chosen without any threat behind it. Exactly. And without any compulsion behind it, there’s a certain elegance to that, it just like in a, you know, if people are gonna get married, like, it’s got to be this, like, we both want to do it. And it’s just like with God, if God just overwhelmed us with his charisma, then of course we do it. But this is the why do we navigate this weird life instead is because we are through these little interactions, learning what God is like, and that every little bit of love, that you interact, share with somebody every time you understand a person because God is we are human, because God is you start to see a little more of God. And so in this theater here, where you get to see love versus not love, and you get to see the right way to treat people and dignity and all that versus the wrong way to treat people in this free free world to choose their to love the qualities that make God who, who God is, then we can have a real relationship. You know that then we can so and then God can can Okay, yeah, I’m gonna give you everything. But I you needed to learn? Yeah, I don’t know how to phrase it. But no,

Brian Smith 1:06:43
I think you phrased it really well. I mean, I think we do. This is a place of choices. This is a place of light, and dark and good and evil. And we can we can choose and kind of test each test each out. Try it on, see how it feels, see what we love. But, you know, God is always drawing us, you know, always, always calling us always there for us always, on our side always rooting for us. And my personal belief is God doesn’t lose, God gets what he wants. Because, you know, one of the things I was taught in Christianity was, Well, God wants everyone to be saved. But Calvinism says that he doesn’t choose everyone to be saved. And arminianism says, Well, he can’t choose everyone to save. And I say God loves everybody in guy gets what he wants. So I think eventually, God will draw us all back to him. But we can choose whether that’s going to be an easy path or a hard path.

Curtis Childs 1:07:32
Right? And we’ll look at, look at all the going back to the Bible, the biblical narrative, and all of its violence and all of its confused, confusion. Isn’t it like life that we have? This story of isn’t like Jesus’s life. He showed up and you think, Okay, he’s God, things are gonna go great. We’re gonna go, right, yeah, it’s this total. All I’m saying is the chaos and the, in a confusing this of the Bible, remind me of life, that it’s it’s chaotic and confusing. And it’s that there’s this hidden Providence inside of it. That even though you’re you look at your life, and like, what if I was sitting down and designing my life, I wouldn’t know. I’m taking this part out, I’m putting this new part in am, I actually going to catch that bus when I’ve missed that. But but it is, like, I just can’t understand the decision making. But there’s a spiritual sense to our lives where all this stuff, we’re talking about this, this in ways you can’t understand God prepping you to receive heaven. It’s happening. It’s just like, it’s a correspondence. So it’s everywhere. It’s just like the body. You know, you’ve got we’ve got these bodies, and we sort of know how they work. But we all the stuff that’s going on inside there. Like I think of how if I was going to try to stay healthy, okay, what do I do? Well, I should eat healthy, put, put healthy food on my plate and eat it. And I’ll run for 15 minutes this morning. You think about that, versus what’s going on inside the body. Like how that food is broken down how those nutrients are distributed. There’s all kinds of problems and emergencies and things in my body that are getting fixed without even knowing it. Right, right. This is like what God is doing with us that we don’t really understand even what the point it’s like, what why go through all this? Well, it’s about our love and our and our will and that there’s, there’s this whole formation just like in the womb, all these conditions have to go just right for us to get formed. Yeah, so it is right now our spirit is getting formed in the same way. And each, each moment. swedenborg says every moment holds a series of consequences that extend to eternity. So like everything ripples out like the butterfly, if it ripples out forever, and you think about the processing power that’s needed to line that up. So that is he talks about like, you know, if you’re shooting an arrow, and you’re a mile away from the target, even the tiniest little deviation you get way out the target. It’s that’s how it is with the trajectory of our life. If God isn’t making these little micro adjustments all the time, they’re they’re that much care. But it’s confusing, because we can’t see, you know, like with life after death, 1000 years down the road and how this is going to help that. And, you know, it’s it’s I’m not trying to say life isn’t confusing and hard, but you can get some real peace at times out of this idea that okay, the reason it’s confusing, as hard as it is really complicated things going on. And the more that we start to understand is why the Bible is good internal sense, you got to understand what God is actually doing. Then it starts to make more sense, though, if we don’t understand the objective, we’re not gonna understand the day to day, but if we can start to look for it. swedenborg says, with divine providence, like the God’s guidance of our lives, you really, even don’t matter how spiritual you are, you’re probably not gonna understand what’s going on in the moment. Yeah, but you can start to look back at your life and see things and see, oh, I’m starting to see how good things came out of that.

Brian Smith 1:10:55
Yeah, let’s, let’s end, let’s end on on divine providence. Because I that’s, I think, a very important concept. And I’m gonna just tee this up by saying, I was talking with a client yesterday. And we were talking about my life, my daughter passed away, like five years ago, my 15 year old daughter, and that’s her. My daughter behind me, Shana. And, you know, we’re talking about, you know, bee bee bee being born a black man. And there was a time early in my life, I was like, why would anybody choose to be born black, I mean, that would be a silly decision to make. But if I hadn’t been born a black man, if I hadn’t had my daughter passed away, I wouldn’t be sitting here doing what I’m doing with you right now. It’s this experience that made me who I am. And my point is, that when these things happen, you know, earlier in life, you’re like, this doesn’t make any sense. But at some point in our life, we can start to see this come together. So talk about what divine providence is, and what was swedenborg his point of view on divine providence.

Curtis Childs 1:11:50
So divine providence is what is God working in our lives? It’s like this short version of it. And it is it divine providence has like specific goals and its goals all revolve around what lasts forever. So you know that weeping may last for the night. But joy comes in the morning. And I’m not saying swedenborg is adamant, even if it’s hard to picture this intellectually, he’s adamant that God doesn’t make bad things happen. But that there are certain things he can’t prevent, for the sake of the goal. So evil makes bad things happen. I’m not talking about like, if something bad happens in my life is because I was doing something evil, but you just think about, like, think about it like pollution. Because Because we’ve been polluting all the world for so long. I can’t go and drink from the river near my house used to be you could go to any stream and just drink from it. Right. That’s how you got your water, you just just drink it up. But because there’s we’ve been put because of all this, like pollution we’ve done for so long. That’s awful. We got to do a whole new thing. Now you got to filter your water and all that. So because there’s been so much love of self love the world, in the human race, there’s all kinds of negative stuff going on. In ways we can’t comprehend it. Bad things are unavoidable. Right? This is just part of what it is. So what Providence is doing, though, is is making it so that good is brought out of everything bad. And like you talked about, and I appreciate you being willing to share your story about Shayna and thinking about Yeah, so I there’s no way that with my sister with her like that God is saying like, well, this is I’m going to I’m going to take this person out of your life to teach you something, right? Like, I think that would be, that would be terrible. But for whatever reason, it can’t be prevented. And, you know, I’m going to I’m going to see my sister again. And she’s there right now. And who but who I am now because I’ve had to deal with that grief and that all that. I’ve learned some things. It’s been a hard a hard learning, but it’s like a same thing with me. Look where I am now.

Brian Smith 1:13:55
Oh, yes.

Curtis Childs 1:13:56
Yeah. And I wouldn’t be where I am without the hard stuff. So in the end, when I get to the other side, and there’s my sister and she and there’s Shana, and she’s happy and beautiful. And and you’re there and you’re having you’re reunited. But you’ve gained something, right. And now you you are somebody and then so then 100 years into the afterlife, 500 years into the afterlife, that stuff that God is putting in us now is still going to be bearing fruit. It’s like we’re putting some investment in but because of the way he’s opening your heart up. And because of the wisdom that you’re gaining, you think about if you’re if you’re an alcoholic, do you want someone who’s never had a drinking problem to try to help you out?

Brian Smith 1:14:38
Right, right now? No, absolutely all,

Curtis Childs 1:14:41
all the potent teachers that you know, all the stuff that I’ve the people who’ve developed the stuff that I’ve used with the help with depression. You know, they were struggling with depression, when the world goes through terrible things. You know, everyone always talks about like, Hitler and Nazi Germany, like Don’t Don’t be like that Don’t be like that. It was a, it was this like, terrible thing that happened. And you’d never say that was good. But look at what it’s done after that. Now we know what that is, we can say like, we’ve identified a kind of evil. No. And we and it’s almost like, like with, like with a disease once you’ve caught it once your immune system now knows, look at that. That’s it. We know how to fight that now, right? Without whenever something sort of veers toward that you can say, No, we know what that is. So. So there’s the, this is the way that human race can confront evil in in our individual lives, we can confront problems and like, Here you are, yeah, now making this huge difference in all these people’s lives, helping them deal with their own grief and everything. So divine providence, is looking first and foremost at how does that change what you love and what you care about, because that is who you are, and that is going to go that that is part of your eternal spirit. And And likewise, I didn’t have in the joy of heaven as being useful other people. So you don’t just think oh, in the world in on Earth, here, I’m going to help people deal with with grief or whatever. And then I’m going to who knows just sit around in heaven and be happy, right? Heaven is the joy of having a so so the stuff that you’re learning here, you’re going to be even better at it. And you’re going to be helping somehow in the afterlife. People with some and or you’re helping people here through who knows what it was, but that that work that that we’re putting in getting you to be able to do what you can do now, that’s going to pay dividends to the human race to eternity, right? Because you’re going to be held. So every day, you think about how much help you’re going to be given. So in the end, I you know, just think it’s just it’s in the end. Providence brings just unlimited good out of temporary, bad. And that that’s that’s what the equation. That’s how the equation balances. Yeah,

Brian Smith 1:16:55
I love that. I think that’s a great way to end. Curtis, thank you so much for doing this. It’s been it’s been I can’t even tell how much of a pleasure it is to sit down and talk with you. And I want to tell everybody that the channel is off the left eye on YouTube. That’s the name of the podcast as well. I believe I listened to the podcast because I listened to it while I’m walking. But everybody check it out. Curtis, any final thoughts?

Curtis Childs 1:17:17
Oh, well, this was fun. And I really enjoy you inviting me into this conversation. And I get excited. Whenever I’m talking about stuff like this. We think like we Yeah, definitely. Suffering leads to this joy in the idea of being able to end suffering. So there’s one part of Sweden Norway says you can’t really know what good is unless you know, it’s opposite. And one thing I can look back on everything negative I’ve gone through and see is it has Stoke this fire in me this enthusiasm for nobody should have to go through this stuff that we’re going through, and how can we how can we solve these problems? And how can we bring joy to people? And that that’s, I think, I wouldn’t care about that as much if everything was gone, right for me, I would have just been more interested in. Okay, well, how can I get the next thing on my agenda to continue to be obsessed with myself? Right? So, you know, I’m, there’s definitely times when I would have been upset to say this, but things I can see where we’re going, even though that I’ve had tons of times in my life, that I’m not saying it’s okay, God, I’m saying this is not okay. And I don’t think we’re supposed to get to the point where we’re saying this stuff is okay. I think you think about a kid who goes through something hard. You know, just because that’s the best metaphor. It’s like, No, of course, they’re gonna cry and be sad and, and God is not expecting us to not be being sad and be upset and be mad at him. And I’m mad at God all the time. But because you can’t help it, because it was so hard, right? But but in moments like this, I can look and say like, I think this is gonna be okay. I think we’re going to be okay. I think that in the end, it’s going to be just like the near death experience. People say like, once you see the full picture, like you’re saying, once that shadow is gone. I want to shake God’s hand and say like, you know, you know what, you did it the right way. And I’m just so excited for what we’re gonna do next.

Brian Smith 1:19:13
Well, thanks. Wow, that gave me goosebumps. Thanks, Curtis. Thank you. Have a good rest of your day. That’s it for another episode of grief to growth. I sure hope you got something out of it. Please stay in contact with me by reaching out at www dot grief to growth.com that’s grief the number two growth.com or you can text the word growth to 31996. That’s simply text growth gr o w th 231996. So if you’re watching this on YouTube, please make sure you subscribe. So hit the subscribe button and then hit the little bell here and it’ll notify you when I have new content. Always please share the information if you enjoy it. That helps me to get more views and then get the message out to more people. Thanks a lot and have a wonderful day.

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Dr. Alison J Kay has secrets no one else uses to upgrade, inspire & disrupt old paradigms within her community & the collective. Dr. Alison’s mission is to support the next higher evolution of the collective & create change for the health of this planet and those who are ready to unleash every part of the magic within them.

Backed by the potency of her Vibrational UPgrade™ container, she hosts a wildly popular Activate Your Magic monthly program synced with the potency and support of the moon. and offering Group Clearings & Activations. Her signature program, Magic, Manifestation & Money Flows facilitates massive money, health, spiritual & life-enhancing shifts to 100’s of clients worldwide. While her advanced clients are supported by her Vibrational Upgrade™ Mastermind Group, Certification Program & International Retreat Programs.

You don’t need to believe in this in order for it to work… that’s the beauty of what Dr. Alison accesses – as soon as you experience her work, you will feel the shift within you. Some of the things we discussed: What she learned by living in Asia for 10 years? How does the Vibrational UPgrade™ Energy Medicine, help someone with their spiritual awakening? For listeners who have maybe heard about the chakras before, what is it that you find important to say to folks who have seen this buzz word out on social media? Why is now such a magical time? What does it mean to have a Vibrational UPgrade?

For more information visit:  https://www.alisonjkay.com/




Judy Unger is a Shining Light mother. Judy’s five year old son Jason passed away in 1992 at the tender age of 5 years old. Jason had a severe congenital heart defect.

Judy’s grief journey was unusual in that it was 18 years later, in 2010, at the age of 50, that Judy really began processing her grief. She joined Compassionate Friends and even led a group after Jason passed. But, it wasn’t until her parents’ health challenges in 2010 that Judy was broken open and experienced a creative and emotional renaissance.

I met Judy just a week or so before we recorded this interview. She joined a circle I created on Insight Timer and shared with us her course: “Healing Grief Through Music“. Judy has repurposed songs she wrote early in her life and songs she wrote while she was going through her parents’ health issues into a series of 10 daily lessons that beautifully portray the highs and lows of grief. I found the course to be an excellent one for anyone in the early stages of grief or really any stage.

You can find out more about Judy at: www.judyungermusic.com

The Insight Timer course is free and is at: Healing Grief Through Music




Announcer 0:00
Close your eyes and imagine what if the things in life to cause us the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we’ve been buried. But what if, like a seed had been planted and having been planted, who grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is grief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith.

Brian Smith 0:45
Hey everybody, this is Brian back with another episode of grief to growth and today I’ve got with me a fellow shining light parents Her name is Judy Unger, I met Judy recently, through an app that I use called insight timer, which if you’ve listened to the program before, you’ve heard me talk about insight timer all the time, and I formed a circle and inside timer and Judy joined the circle. Judy, I’m going to read your biography and then I’ll tell you why she’s here. Judy’s been a commercial illustrator since 1981. And illustrations can be seen in many well known food labels. for 30 years she focused on her art career in her family. She gave up songwriting and playing guitar, which was something she loved as a young girl. In 1992, Judy’s five year old son Jason died from a severe congenital heart defect. Judy wanted to be buried with them in Greece, Walder up for swelled her life up for almost two decades. And night and 2010 at the age of 50. Judy was caring for her parents and coping with the challenges she faced with the three surviving children. During that time she became exhausted, uninspired and sad. It was truly a miracle. At the age of 50, she was able to experience a creative and emotional Renaissance, Judy opened her heart to write the deeply painful experience of losing Jason, and her journey toward healing began sharing the story of his brief life transformed her, and the grief that she carried was lifted. finding joy after 18 years of sorrow was a gift that Judy had never imagined. Music was a magic carpet that lifted her over all of her stress. She was very close to both her parents, and it was hard to watch them suffer. But her songs ease their pains and she was especially grateful to both her parents witnessed her joy before they died. Judy is a passionate songwriter. His songs comprise a musical of her life. Many of her songs are dedicated to her son Jason should rediscover the songs composing her youth and wrote new songs that helped her cope with their current challenges. And that’s how I met Judy, because she’s taken some of her songs and turned them into a course on insight timer. And that’s where I spend a lot of time talking about today. Judy’s blog, my journeys, insight and illustrating my life, as rich people all over the world. Her book beside me always is available on Amazon and on Kindle. Judy also creates meditation music for insight timer, and we’re going to talk about her free course, which is healing grief through music, Judy wants is here today to convey your optimism and her belief that if she could heal, perhaps others could find hope with her story, if her words and music bring any level of comfort to another person, and she believes she has achieved more in her lifetime than she’s ever dreamed of. So with that, I want to welcome Judy Unger.

Judy Unger 3:14
Thank you. Thank you again for having me. I’m honored. Yeah, Judy,

Brian Smith 3:18
I’m glad you’re here. I am a believer in synchronicities. I think that people come across our lives that were meant to meet. And as I mentioned, in the intro, I use this app insight timer. I literally use it every day. And they have a new feature on there where you can create circles, and I created a circle and you came in. And you told me about this course. And I looked at the overview of the course I’m like, this looks fantastic. And there are 10 lessons, I will confess, I’m on lesson nine. I haven’t finished the 10th lesson yet. But it’s it’s it’s great. And it’s healing grief through music, which I’m a big fan of music. So tell me about First I want to I want to get a chance to talk about Jason. So tell me about Jason.

Judy Unger 3:58
Um, well, I was just gonna say about my course I should have named it healing grief through my music, but I shortened it to make it just more palatable because I really can’t say healing grief through music, you know, music to you, because I don’t know how everybody is going to respond or heal. I know people in grief that have told me that they cannot listen to music. it stirs up the memories and it makes them ill. And I understand that too. I did not have music during my grade. It was a long time before the music came back to me. And I’m grateful to that every day. Jason Wow. What can I say about little Jason, he lived five years. And he taught me so much but I have to be honest. When when he died. I felt different than other breed parents. I had this horrible revelation that I wish he had never been born or I wished he had died as an infant because he was very sick when he was born. He barely made it and my rationale for that was If he had died early, I wouldn’t have suffered as much because I grew to love him. I was his caregiver, he was fragile. It was my involvement and dedication that actually kept them alive. He almost died so many times. So having that burden and feeling that there was just only torture, and the fact that I have remaining children, I had another son, that was two. And later on, he was diagnosed with autism. And I didn’t know I thought it was great. He was screaming all the time, he wouldn’t talk. So not only did I lose this very articulate, old man who was five years old, after heart surgery, I had another child that wouldn’t stop screaming. They couldn’t even say, Mommy, so he was five years old. And I got pregnant right away. So I threw myself into my children. And that was my distraction, and also my survival, my coping. But it wasn’t even until I wrote about grief, which was 18 years after his death, that I learned that Jason’s name and healer, and I didn’t, I didn’t name them, knowing that it was just really astonishing for me. He was very worse. He was like a shining light, he sparkles. He was exuberance. I’m grateful that he didn’t really suffer. He could have suffered, I think in some ways I tell parents that have lost children worse than death is to see your child suffer. For me, I mean, that’s my belief. So my whole goal was to keep him from suffering to do everything during the short life that would make him comfortable. And when you’re a caregiver, I mean, every there is no good death in there. I don’t like to compare, because you’ll often hear the worst death suicides. You know, losing an older child is different than losing a young losing a young child. And I went through all that, because I was very involved with a lot of other bereaved parents. But I learned comparisons, just what is the point? You know, my grief is worse than your grief, it’s all bad, you know, there, there just really isn’t a point to compare. So it took me a long time. But eventually, I realized that I’m actually grateful that I had him. I don’t believe that I wish he would have died. It was just very hard to be a parents, to my surviving children. What kind of a parent would I be to my daughter who was born less than a year after his death? I was not going to sing to her. I wasn’t smiling. I was crying all the time with the pregnancy has been affected by all the grief. So that’s a lot, a lot to carry. Yeah,

Brian Smith 7:51
yeah, absolutely. Well, I wanna I want to go back to something you said earlier, before you start talking about Jason and the idea of healing through music. And I do have friends, who’s after the children have passed? It’s too. Music is too powerful. I can’t listen to it. I’m exactly the opposite. My daughter passed away in the summer, I walk every day. And I was listening to music and seeking out music that would help me heal to process the feelings that I was going through. So you write a little bit different for everybody. And for some people might take a while because your music was taken away from you for a while. And I know, another parent I work with who creates music and creates art much like yourself. And when his son passed away, he couldn’t even go near his instruments for for quite a while.

Judy Unger 8:37
Yeah. Well, what’s interesting for me is to backtrack on the journey. My music and songwriting was during the time before I had children before I got married. And when I got married, I put it aside because I became career oriented. And I also think I wasn’t connected to my heart, I began to suppress my feelings. I thought, I’m not really happy, but I’ve got to be a mature woman and accept that this is what married life is, and I just don’t feel like singing anymore. Then when I had Jason, who was my first child, he loved music. So it revived my music for that time just for him. It wasn’t about original songs. It was about whatever he wanted to hear. And he had his own little guitar. So after he died, the thought that I could ever sing again. It was like I did try for my other children because they deserve to hear a song or two, but my heart was, and I never dreamed I’d sing again. But here’s the little clue. A very tiny clue. It’s actually a big clue. When I was 17, I wrote a song named beside me always. And it was a it was for boyfriends. And it was just the feeling that he would still be with me in future. I have other songs like that. And then Jason died and I was absolutely in shock, and we had to hold a funeral. And I thought, I don’t think I can get up and speak. So I actually recorded a eulogy. And I wanted some poetry. So I thought about that song. And I decided, you know what, the lyrics are very much about him, somebody being beside you, I’m changing the lyrics. So I revised those lyrics. And I read the funeral. Of course, not seeing them. I couldn’t imagine singing, but I read them. I also had another song called saying goodbye, and another one called more than you know, but three songs that I went. And then I didn’t have music in my life, and the rediscovery of music is an entire story in itself. But it was 18 years after Jason had died, I felt very proud that I had survived grief survived. And that was a huge achievement, I considered it My greatest achievement. Because it was one foot in front of the others. And I sometimes don’t even think I had hope I was crawling, I found that it helped me to connect with other bereaved parents. And that was kind of like holding hands, I remember a grief coach said to me, You need to find someone going through it with you, I can’t really hold your hand, I’m far ahead, find someone also in the same at the same timeframe that you’re going through it. So I found some partners. And in grief, we learn how to walk again, and we shuffle forward. And I, I thought I had survived this, and then it reached a place of suppression, you know, I almost I didn’t cry anymore. I didn’t talk about Jason, I felt like if I talked about him in the beginning, I didn’t want to be with people that talk about trivial things, it would make me really angry, like, you know, I lost my child, and you’re talking about, you know, you’re upset about something mundane. But then later on, it’s like, if I was to mention them, I had a child to die. And then my friend would go, I’m so sorry. And then everything would focus. And then I felt like, I wanted to support my friend and not make them uncomfortable. So I didn’t bring it up. I didn’t say Today’s the anniversary of his death. I just kept it to myself. But I had support from my parents, and from a few good friends and years went by. Yeah, and I was not really happy. I mean, I was just surviving. I had my other children who had issues. I did not have a good marriage, but my determination was Greek was not going to destroy my marriage. So I stayed married no matter what. But the truth was, even before I had children, I was lonely. In fact, I think that’s why I had children to fill the void. So I had so much I wasn’t, I wasn’t acknowledging, and how did I wake up? What changed?

Well, what changed was the loss of my mother and my father, they were getting sick, and I took them in to live with me. And then my mother kept falling and getting sicker and sicker. And at one point, she was on a respirator for like six weeks, and I didn’t think she was going to make it. But I started to every night, I come home from the hospital and write to my family and my friends. And they were captivated by my writing. They said, You’re a really good writer. But it was because I began to share the details, I would tell them, you know, you know, the trick to I could see her blink her eyes and she’s communicating. And I think she’s gonna, you know, I mean, they were hanging on to my descriptions. And she actually slowly improved and she was released from the hospital, it was a miracle. But after that, I thought, you know, I want to keep writing. So I started my blog, my journeys and sites. And I was, I was kind of exhilarated by the idea, what am I going to write about? So I started out writing about what I’ve been through with my living children, you know, how difficult it was to find out my son that surviving had autism, and what I had to go through, and then, you know, having my daughter born right after grade, and then I had my third son, and he also had trouble. So I was just writing all these stories, but I wasn’t writing the hardest one. Yeah, that’s the one. So one day I went in the closet and I took the box out that held all this memorabilia. And I sorted through it. It was 18 years after but it came back is if it had just happened.

Brian Smith 14:43
Yeah, I could. Yeah, I could definitely relate to that. It’s been five and a half for me and you can go right back there just just like that. I do want to ask you a few questions. So it was 18 years before you really sat down to process your grief after after Jason pass. And I want to say This, I want people to hear that because I think it’s very important I work with with clients that was just telling before we start it. Usually it’s in the first six months to a year that, you know, they come to me. And I find they’re like, I’m going to be this way forever, you know, this is never going to change. And when you try to hold that hope out to someone that that’s that early, they just can’t see it. But, you know, it can take us a while to process and we all process a little bit differently. But the question was, did you were part of compassionate friends? Is that right?

Judy Unger 15:29
I was a leader. Yes.

Brian Smith 15:31
How long after Jason passed? Did you join compassionate friends?

Judy Unger 15:36
Well, that’s interesting. Not everybody wants support groups. But for me, it was something desperate. It was like, if I can’t be in a support group, I don’t know what to do. So I looked all over, I started I actually went to a general support group. And that was where I found my partner in grief, my friend and I connected because in this group, there were people that had lost a pet of parents. And we were just, like, scornful, like, oh, my god that has nothing compared to what we’re going through. That was my mistake. You know, at that time, I, I just was so angry, you know, that stage and her and I connected, but then I realized I need something closer. So then I went to a compassionate Friends Meeting, I went to different ones in the area. And here was the thing I would listen in if it was a baby. Or if it was an older guy wanted somebody that had lost the kid like Jason, because only they can understand what I went through a kid that had a heart defect or health issues, because I was a caregiver that was really hard, you know, to lose that, that space in my life. What do I do with myself, and somebody that had lost a child was an older, I had to clean out his bedroom, you know, you had an older child who didn’t have to deal with that I wanted that tool relating. And it was interesting, because I did meet a mother who had a child with a similar heart defect. And it taught me something. Isn’t it interesting, you learn from every person you meet, I beat myself up because my son died after surgery. And I kept thinking, I had another doctor with a different opinion. And this surgeon, my cardiologist recommended her but she really wasn’t a pediatric cardiology, heart surgeon. Maybe he could have survived and I had picked the wrong person or whatever was, yeah. And then this woman, her story was her son needed heart surgery, and she checked them into the hospital. And he died the night before surgery, he didn’t even have surgery, and he dies. So what did that tell me that told me, you know, it’s capricious, I mean, he Jason could have done it before surgery, it just, it is what it is, which is an awful thing to say. But I learned I learned from that. And then in the end, it turned out that there wasn’t going to be anybody that lost Jason only i that is the lonely part. That is the part that’s so horrible about grief. There’s no one that’s going through what you’re going through your personal love and devotion and the horrible loss.

Brian Smith 18:06
Yeah, well, you know, it’s both unique and universal at the same time. You know, it’s we all go through grief, we all we all go through one way or the other there, you know, whether you lost a pet or you lost a child, it’s grief. But there is something very unique about it as well. But a lot of things you said were very common, you know, anger, guilt, you know, what did I do? Could I have done something different? I think every parent goes through that no matter how their child passes, and just we think we’re superhuman, right, we should have done something different.

Judy Unger 18:36
How would I not save my child? That is the ultimate failure. We can’t say my child.

Brian Smith 18:41
Yeah. And the other thing, I’ve seen that also with parents, I guess I just don’t really have it. But I’ve seen it’s very common as I want to talk to somebody whose child died just the way mine did. You know, that’s it. My child was murdered, I need to talk to someone was murdered, because they’re the only ones that could understand. I think I think that’s something that we go through and kind of move through that phase too, before we realize that, yeah, child is losing a child.

Judy Unger 19:06
It’s so different. Now. I can’t believe the person I was versus the person I am. I mean, I’m helping people that have lost older children. They’re just like, I don’t have time to heal. I mean, I’ll be dead in 10 years. You know, it’s like, I just want to die now and be with my child, or the sadness of even a stillbirth or miscarriage. They don’t have any memories. You know, they didn’t get that chance. Right. That’s a huge loss. So my compassion has grown.

Brian Smith 19:34
So what are your what were your thoughts about Jason’s state, I guess, after he after he and I know she would use the word died and I’m part of a group called helping parents heal and we’re very careful with their language. So I don’t I don’t often use the word died. So that’s why I stumble over it because I don’t believe our children die. But um, so what were your thoughts about Jason after after he died? What did you think about where he was? Was he with you? Did you think about it at all?

Judy Unger 20:02
Well, you know, I, it was so awful that I wrote about it. And actually, I could read an excerpt that I wrote for my audio book. Because once I did write his story, and I began healing, I decided that I really wanted to share it. I recorded an audio book with his story and about my songs early on, like two years after that, but it took me another three years or four years till it got out there. And actually, when it got out there, I hired somebody to read the book, because I just didn’t think I could sell it that I didn’t have a professional speaking voice. But I realized that people appreciate the heartfelt nature of it. And actually, I’m inside time or having the live sessions have been wonderful. Because I decided to read the story again, it really takes me back. So let me pull it out real quick. And, okay, I’ll do a little segment on the name of the name of my book is beside me always, which is the song that that truly told my story. And the lyrics to beside me, always that song is so telling. Because even though I wrote the song, back at the age of 17, I still did this thing in the chorus, where the chorus that’s initial is, and when my tears are flowing, and I’m not sure where I’m going, I feel your love, and you’re beside me always in the breeze that’s blowing, you surround me in a breeze that’s blowing. But at the very end, I say, I switch it. And I say you would tell me when your tears are glowing, and you’re not sure where you’re going, just feel my love and I’m beside you always in the breeze that’s blowing on surround you in a breeze that’s blowing. So the whole concept was I’m looking, I’m wondering, and I’m feeling the breeze that’s giving me chills, you know, it’s like, I know he’s there. And now I hear his voice and he’s telling me, I’m there. I’m surrounding you. So when he dies, first of all, I had never seen a dead person in my life. I was innocent. You know, there’s this whole stage of grief before and after. You’re not the same person and you never will be and there’s never and the the absolute the always the never. But I choose to look at that as I’ve transformed. It’s changed my life. And I actually look at it now is a blessing. I didn’t use too bad to breed mother told me the word blessing upsets her. It’s like, Why are other people blessed, and I lost my child, so on curse. So I’m not saying like, I’m better than anybody. But I do say to myself that there’s something positive came out of it. It actually, I thought my songs were dead. That was a dead gone forever. But because of Jason, I injected all of my love to him into the music. Yeah, to me, which helps others. And he’s come back. He’s living in a different way absolute living through my music. So here is I just read this segment because it is so, so emotional.

Brian Smith 23:32
At this point, Judy reads a passage from her book, beside me always. And I’ve decided to take that passage and move it to the end of the interview. Some of the descriptions that are pretty graphic and I’m afraid could be triggers for people who are newly into grief or some of us who may have discovered our child’s body after they passed. So what I wanted to do was to move that to the end. I think it’s very important. It’s very uplifting. I think for people that are ready for that. It does end on a note of hope. But I decided to move it to the end because I didn’t want to possibly trigger anybody. So stay to the very end if you want to hear the passage and I will add it in there. Meanwhile, I’m just going to continue with the conversation right after the break.

Announcer 24:18
We’ll get back to grief to growth in just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian is an author and a life coach. If you’re grieving or know someone who is grieving his book, grief to growth is a best selling easy to read book that might help you or someone you know people work with Brian as a life coach to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers at www grief to growth.com www dot g ri e f the number two gr o w th comm or text growth gr o w t h 231996. If you’d like to support this podcast, visit WWE W patreon.com slash grief to growth www.pa t ar e yo n.com slash g ri e f, the number two gr o w th to make a financial contribution. And now back to grief to growth.

Brian Smith 25:19
Thanks. Thanks, Judy, for reading that that’s you captured really well there. You know, I can relate to pretty much everything you said. I think you captured it really well. And what I want to point out to people when they hear that, I don’t want anybody to think Well, I’ve got to wait seven years before things are gonna get better. Or, you know, everybody’s proof journey is unique. And and it depends on who we are the relationship we have with our child, it depends on what we what we do. You know, so there we can we all process things differently is what I want to say to people. So I don’t want anybody to get discouraged when they when they hear that that might be you know, you know, a very, very long time. So when did you When did you write that? You said that was pretty soon after Jason passed, right?

Judy Unger 26:05
No, no, I

Brian Smith 26:05
that was later. Yeah, yeah.

Judy Unger 26:07
Yeah. The story that I wrote was 18 years after his death. Yeah. It all came back. Yeah. Interesting. Because after I wrote the story, I felt differently. It was it. I was carrying all those details in here. And it was it was taking up space. Yeah, writing it down, suddenly, I could let it go.

Brian Smith 26:28
And I don’t want to put words in your mouth. But I want to ask you this. So feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. But it sounds like for a long time, you kind of suppressed your grief, you didn’t really express it. And then when you’re a parent, and this is very common to because it happened to me when my grandmother passed away. It was about three years later before another very emotional that triggered me to actually start processing it. So it sounds like that your parents that what you’re going to do the parents kind of triggered you to process what you’ve got there with Jason, is that right?

Judy Unger 26:58
I’m not sure how to describe it. I think I felt like I cried in tears. Like, there weren’t any tears left. It was like, I was done crying, and I was emptied out and I was tired. And that it suddenly occurred to me that I could survive. You know, survival just meant I always would grieve. I was always sad about his loss. But it wasn’t the forefront of my life. I wasn’t here and crying all the time. I was grateful for that. Because after many years of sitting in my car, and crying before I could get out and see my friends and pretend everything was fine. And I don’t think I was pushing it down. I actually reached a place I called zombie land. I had no feelings. And I think that’s a place where we don’t want to feel pain. So we choose not to feel anything. No pain, no joy flatline. And my parents had been a big support. So you are absolutely right. That was the trigger that Oh my God, my mother used to, you know, remember Jason with me. And now I’m losing her. And I don’t feel this connection to my husband, because we never shared our grief. And that was an issue for us, which is so common to, but I just I felt so alone in the world. Yeah. And then it’s like that space opened up after writing the story. And I became open. And what happened was a good friend had said to me, do you ever play your guitar anymore? And I like, Are you kidding? It’s in my closet for 30 years, you know? And one day, I just went in my closet and pulled it out. I was alone. And I What song did I play beside me always. I mean, I remember this song. And I started plants. And it was like, something came into me like his spiritual moment. Like I felt him. And then I went back and I played it the next day and hurt the way my fingers were really hurting. Yeah. And that was the beginning. That was it.

Brian Smith 28:54
That’s what happens. I think my thing is, I think grief has to be processed. I think it demands to be processed. And we can we can we can try to bypass it. We can try to stuff it down and it’ll sit there and then we’ll wait. But it’ll, but at some point, it’s going to come back until we until we invited in and go through it, you know, and yeah, there’s no way there’s no way around it. We have to we have to go through it. I remember as

Judy Unger 29:24
a as a leader, a person came into the support group. She had just gone off antidepressants. After five years. It was like it was her first day knowing her story.

Brian Smith 29:34
Yeah, you know, thing. antidepressants are interesting. You know, I’m not a medical doctor, I don’t get medical advice and people. Some people need to be on medication. So I always preface it with that. But I’ve been on antidepressants, and it’s what you described as Zombieland. And I realized I didn’t care about anything. I wasn’t happy. I wasn’t sad. I was just like flatline. So sometimes we need that in the early stages of grief for it and the shock and it’s overwhelming. We need that to zombie out but it Some point we’ve got to we’ve got to look in the eye and face it and go through it. And I think with you, if I remember correctly as I was listening through the lessons at one point, you said, You started doing hypnotherapy? I think that was 18 years. Right. Jason had passed away.

Judy Unger 30:16
Yeah, it was. It was interesting, because I did not feel that I could benefit from any kind of counseling. I tried going to a counselor, I’ve actually she was someone who had lost a child. But she seemed to be like a cheerleader. And she’s like, something good will come out of it. And I was like, Are you kidding me? I don’t want to hear that right now. Right. And I was done with her. And then of course, I tried a few other therapists. And if they had lost a child, what the hell did they know? You know, it turned out my best therapy was other parents. They know. And that was my Savior, anybody that had lost a child, not, you know, hugely close, but it could see them and they were those were the only people I wanted to be with. And it was a shock to me, when the leader of the compassionate friends group I was going to she had lost two children, which I can’t even begin to believe. He asked me if I could take over, I was not even one year into my grief. And I’m taking over a grief group. But all I did was sit there and let everybody tell their story. That’s what we do. Yeah, and I don’t,

Brian Smith 31:16
I don’t want to get in comparing groups. But I’m part of helping parents heal, as I said earlier, and I have never been part of compassionate friends. So I’ll preface it with that. But we strongly believe in talking about the continuity of life, and our children’s still being with us and celebrating our children. And I know for me, that’s made all the difference in the world. You see, my daughter is over my shoulder. Because I literally believe that she’s with me all the time. And she’s she’s inspired me to do what I do. And I was fortunate that I found this group, you know, only a few months after Shane, that passed away. And I think that helped me to process the grief and being around bereaved parents. I mean, like you said, we went, we had a conference. It’s been three years ago now. And we were at we were out in Scottsdale, Arizona, all his parents were together. And it was funny, because we were just having a great time. We’re laughing and your happy hour and the hotel, people walk through. It’s like, Who’s that group? It’s like, Well, those are the three parents. But it was just being around people that understood us. Where we could be ourselves. We could we could cry together. We could laugh together. And we could process like, what does this mean? What do I do with this? You know, so when someone tells you that hasn’t had a child pass, or something good is gonna come out of that she want to smack him in the face. You don’t want to hear that. When another parent tells you that that’s 10 years in, you know, then you say, Well, okay, maybe maybe they don’t maybe that can happen.

Judy Unger 32:37
Yeah, it makes me think about my song that, I guess you know, I don’t focus as much on the transition of the afterlife because I’m trying to just live in the present to get through the life that I have. Because I do know a lot of great parents where they’re just looking forward to dying to be Yeah, yes, but my song angel in the sky right away reminded me of your daughter. Because Shana means beautiful. And my mother used to call me Shana put them meaning beautiful face and the lyrics of that song or a dream about your sweet embrace your sparkling eyes, your beautiful face, and you are my angel in the sky like a butterfly, you flew away and couldn’t stay, we had to say goodbye, I still cry. So you must know I miss you. So my angel in the sky. And the second verse is a and when I die, you’ll take my hand, my lovely light, just not in sight. So I definitely believe that when I die, he’ll be right there to help me and be there to see him again.

Brian Smith 33:42
Yeah, and you made a really important point. We don’t want to live just to die. And and I and that’s a face that I’ve went through. And frankly, sometimes I’m still there, where I look forward to seeing my daughter, we have to live this life. We have things to do while we’re here. And I know. So we there has to be a balance, you know, but we can we can also get so caught up in this world. And you talk about this, and I forgot which one of your songs or which one of your lessons you talk about. It’s really important, though, is that, that always the absolutes that we say I will always be sad, I will never see you again. This is for fitness for return. I was talking with someone just the other day and they said, for eternity for the rest of my life. I will never see her again. And I’m like you just said two opposing things there. The rest of your life is not eternity. But that’s the way we feel we’re going through grief.

Judy Unger 34:35
Right? Love is forever. Right. That’s the part, the suffering. I mean, one of the things I often dealt with is, do I feel guilty to tell someone that I’m healed? What does that mean? I mean, healing represents a scar. I mean, I call it the amputation of my soul, the part that people can’t see that you’ve lost something there’s a sympathy for that. You carry it. And then the whole idea of healing is I’m not letting go of love. I’m letting go of the suffering and my son. He doesn’t want me to suffer. I mean, that’s a truism where you say, Oh, the person you’re grieving doesn’t want you to suffer. Well, that doesn’t take away the pain when your ends. But I wrote the story of healing and it was an image, I was in a prison of grief. And that was actually a term another brief person told me she says, I’m in a prison of grief, and there’s no escape. Yes. And you’re, you’re angry, like, what did I do to be in this prison? What is my crime, that I am in prisons, and there’s just like, No way else. And then, one day, I, I was able to leave that prison. And I kept going back, because I wanted the other prisoners to know they could lead to but I kept wondering how in the world did I leave the prison. And then I saw this image, it was my son, and his face was like a light. And he handed me the key. He wanted me to leave, he did not want me to live in a prison. He was giving me the key. And that I wrote a song about

Brian Smith 36:13
Yeah. And and I love that what you said there. And because it’s interesting, because as I’m listening to the course, I hear sometimes you say, grief, I’m over my grief for my grief is ended or grief ends. And then other times you talk about how we, you know, we are always in grief. And we talked about that before we get started. And I think it’s both that you said just so eloquent, right? Did the suffering can and that continual, terrible feeling, but we still missed them. I think he used this analogy in one of your songs or, and one of the lessons and it’s one I learned a long time ago, that when our loved one is ripped away from us, there’s like a hole in our heart. And it’s raw, and it’s painful. And that hole eventually scars over and it leaves scars. There’s still a hole. But I think you said the holes filled with love. That wasn’t one of your lessons, right? Yes.

Judy Unger 37:01
Yeah. Love is love is the key. I mean, yeah, it was love that got me surviving. Because I still loved my other children. I love my parents. I felt that that was the only reason to go on. Because there was no other point. Yeah, but I also had a concept from angel in the sky, which of course was very important that I still cry. It’s okay to cry. I still cry about my son. Does that mean that I’m still in deep grief? No, it’s acknowledging the feelings. And the healing is the part where I used to anticipate the day of his death. And his birthday, I mean, a birthday is even sadder than a death day, because are passing transition day. The the birthday represents the fact that he will never grow up, he’ll never get married, have children, even all the things that you wish for your child, that will not happen. But now I can, his birthday can come and I feel peaceful. And I remember him and I sing songs for him. And an angel in the sky, I came up with this concept Angel here on Earth. He’s in the sky, I’m honored. And by honoring his legacy he lives on his name is mentioned, he becomes alive to me. And it also means by helping other people. It’s a beautiful way to keep his memory alive.

Brian Smith 38:20
Absolutely. And I think that’s the balance that we talked about earlier. You know, we don’t want we don’t want to bypass, you know, this life, and just say, Okay, I’m just gonna wait till I die. And then I’ll see him again, right? He’s still here with me, I can still honor him while I’m here. And they and our loved ones, whether they’ve transition, whether it’s a parent or child, or, you know, spouse, or whatever it is, they don’t want us to be miserable. And sometimes we hold on to that misery because we think the pain is we confuse it with the love. And if we let go the pain then we’re letting go of the love.

Judy Unger 38:54

Brian Smith 38:56
So what I like to do is, let’s talk about the course because I want to explain to people what it is if we guess we haven’t explained it very well. So it’s, it’s 10 lessons. And each lesson is a song that Judy has written and she actually cites the lyrics or recites the lyrics. And then you talk about the meaning of them for you. So let’s go through just real quickly, maybe, you know, a couple minutes or 30 seconds or a minute on each song on each lesson. Sure. So the first one is so real.

Judy Unger 39:27
Yeah, the first line is this morning, I woke up and it slipped my mind that you’re not here with me anymore. And it’s about that shock where you wake up and you have this peaceful feeling like you still remember there you can call them and then all of a sudden, it hits you like a shock to your hearts. And again, the beauty of the healing for me is I look forward to waking up in the morning but for so many years, so many years. That was the worst part. I did not want to wake up. I didn’t want to wake up to face this. That’s what song is about.

Brian Smith 40:01
And every season.

Judy Unger 40:04
Well I talked about him when he died, the weather became cold, he died at the beginning of autumn. So every year when the season would change, the dead leaves were like his body crumbling into a pile of dust. It was just triggering the memories, but then the memories of summer is last summer on Earth. and spray it was like each seasonal change was so sad. And I it was my first song that I wrote as an adult woman, because I didn’t know I could write songs again. And there I was playing my guitar again. And this song came to me I could write a new song. And the lyrics were sad it was when you left from life, I withdrew. And a piece of my soul died to life and death are a mystery. And my sadness will always be every season, you come back to me. And you know, I thought I change it to and my love will always be and I tried to sing that. It didn’t feel authentic. So I left it, I left it because it’s a testimony to how I feel how I felt before I healed.

Brian Smith 41:11
I think it’s a part. I think that’s important. Because what I love about as I’ve gone through this, I can remember being in each one of these stages, and and it makes you feel less alone when you hear someone else singing your emotion. So I’m glad you left it the way it is. Beside me always. Well, I

Judy Unger 41:28
feel like that what I’ve covered. I mean, yeah, of course. But the main thing was, it’s so cool that I could write a book about this story. And it’s on. It’s on Amazon. And it’s also an audio book, which is very close to my heart. Because I have some recordings on there of Jason’s voice him and I conversing and yeah, yeah, so that song actually is what brought me inside time. Yeah.

Brian Smith 41:54
And you have recordings of his voice and one of the songs and one of the lessons. I love that

Judy Unger 42:00
book. I just say real quick. When I did the book, I had someone promoting it. And she says do a meditation album to go with the book. So I’ve never done meditation albums. So I did a meditation album. That’s how insight timer found me. So it’s just part of the story.

Brian Smith 42:14
Yeah, Hang on.

Judy Unger 42:17
Hang on was just about all the ways that I found to hang on. And I even say at the end, when I was grieving, I did all these things until the day I arrived, when I realized it can’t become easier to hang on. The sun started shining down and life became bearable. If you find yourself slipping, there are hands to hold you if you look for them, you are worth it. Don’t forget your loved one is folding into. I didn’t realize when I was making on. I thought it was it was the loneliest journey ever. It wasn’t till later that I realized that

Brian Smith 42:52
absolutely. set you free.

Judy Unger 42:55
Well, that was actually about letting go of my father. He was very sick when I wrote it. And it was I need to set you free. I hadn’t done it yet. It doesn’t express that I’ve done it’s like the struggle. And the words that brought me tears were your smile, your touch, your voice, your face, your essence, I will never replace. And that makes me cry, because that’s the part we feel that we’re going to lose. We’re going to forget how they smell how they sounded. And it does get harder, and you don’t want to let go of that. And at the same time, the pain is so great. But then when my parents both died, I sang that song to them as they were dying. And my mother, I finished the song. And I said I need to set you great. And her book her last breath. It was like so eerie. That song helped to set me free. Yeah,

Brian Smith 43:48
yeah. I just say when I when I heard I heard you’re saying the lyrics and I saw the lesson title. I was like, I don’t like this one. But I love how you tied it into your parents and studying there. That physical existence, you know, go free. Because for me, I’ll never let Shayna go free. So that’s just that’s just my my little thing there.

Judy Unger 44:07
I love the word essence. That’s the part. Yeah, yeah. Are there?

Brian Smith 44:11
Yeah, absolutely. It’s not forever.

Judy Unger 44:15
Well, I remember going to a Greek site where I had this lesson was one word for grief. And I mean, I have the list here. agony, anguish, eternal, alone, forever excruciating. It went on and on. But what was the most, most repeated word forever. So I thought, this is the song I’m going to write. And it was really, you say your pain will always be there. And every day is a nightmare. I remember so well, living with that kind of Hill. So that song was a change, because Hang on. I was so excited about healing from grief. I wanted to tell everyone you can do it. And I was a cheerleader. And I thought, you know, that’s not compassionate enough for me because I didn’t like it when people do that. To me in the early stages, I’m gonna write a different song. I remember so well when I was more like, I know what you’re going through, and then the whole thing, it’s not forever, it feels like it’s never going to change. You know? So that’s why that’s why I wrote the song.

Brian Smith 45:15
Yeah, that’s the thing that breaks my heart more than anything. When I’m talking to someone. When I hear that forever. It’s for it’s forever, I will never see them again. It’s always going to be this way. I will always feel this way. And you You’re right. It’s the hang on thing is is okay. But it’s like, but there’s hope. And, but it’s going to be for a little while, you know that there’s work to be done.

Judy Unger 45:37
The funniest part though, is the songs. I’m writing for others. For me, right. I was going through a really terrible divorce. And I kept listening to hang on. And that got me through it. My own song. It was like I was talking to myself.

Brian Smith 45:49
Yeah. Somewhere I can’t see.

Judy Unger 45:53
That was anticipatory. I, I was losing my mother now. And I decided, you know what? I hold on to the love and heals me. You’re not gone. You’re just somewhere I can’t see. I won’t drown in misery. Because your love rescues me. That’s the chorus. And it was just a way to tell myself, I can get through this group grief because I know they’re there. And I just can’t see them and their love is going to save me.

Brian Smith 46:21
Okay and clear.

Judy Unger 46:24
That was about finding clarity. And the biggest line in the song for me was the ending line. It’s never too late to turn your life around. No reason to wait. And the irony was I was waiting. I was terrified. I decided to end my marriage. And I didn’t know how to do it was horrible. And the whole thing about clear was, it was like beautiful music I could hear I opened my eyes, life became clear. The music was like clarity. Because I’m writing these lyrics that are like a script. It was bizarre. It was like there is my own song is telling me hang on. And it’s not forever. It was like, I better listen to my lyrics. So when I wrote that it’s never too late to turn your life around. And I was waiting. I thought I guess I better stop waiting and live. Thank God for my songs because I did write a song music saved me. Is that not true? Because if it hadn’t appeared, I might be in the same situation. The zombie lands.

Brian Smith 47:26
Yeah, my shining star.

Judy Unger 47:29
I love that one especially. It’s your breath, I feel you whisper in my ear to heal. That was about being alone and sad. And he’s there, you know, in my heart, you will stay I’ll hold on to our love forever. Every night. The stars above remind me of your love. It was just a song that that celebrated. Like he’s my shining star. He’s what I what I look to to get through every hard time.

Brian Smith 48:04
Awesome. And finally the key.

Judy Unger 48:08
That was the story I told about my prison of grace. And the revelation. It didn’t come till the very end of the song It says you came back to bring me the key. So here’s the the switch in every season, I said, and my sadness will always be every season, you come back to me. So I didn’t have a picture that he’s coming back to me every season. But a sad, sad picture. But the key is the evolution of healing because now it’s you came back to bring me the key. The key that allowed me to leave the prison. He didn’t come back. What a beautiful ending. Yeah,

Brian Smith 48:48
yeah, I love the arc. You know, it’s interesting, because I can see the arc and the songs. But also there’s hope, with the and within each song too. So there’s, you know, they start off, sad, and they and they can you can see more hope in each one. But there’s always some hope in it. And I love the way that you’ve laid it out. I was talking to you beforehand. You don’t include the actual songs in the lessons, and I’ll let you explain why.

Judy Unger 49:16
Oh, well, that’s because the lesson is just kept about 15 to 20 minutes. I figure if people want to hear the song, it’s available so they can look for the vocal Medley also have all of my course and all those songs and music on Bandcamp. But on insight timer, it’s free, and the course is free. So yeah, the best way to access the music. I mean, I have three songs that I love. Beside me always angel in the sky and my shining star that are just complete meditation versions that are about 20 minutes, and then I have them as a medley called heavenly healing meditation songs.

Brian Smith 49:55
I find that very spiritual. Awesome. Well, I want to tell people So if you get an insight timer, it’s a free app, you can download it to your iPhone or Android. There’s also the insight timer website. And I’ll put a link to the course in the show notes. Sure, but the course is called healing grief through mood music. So if you get insight timer, look for that. It’s by Judy Unger. Judy, if you want to find out more about her go to Judy Unger music calm it’s Judy. And it’s u n g r music.com. And there’ll be links to all the courts and you have a free course and insight timer, which is one that I’ve taken. And you also have a paid course if you’ve got the premium version of insight timer with more. And the other thing is the music that you songs that you use in the course are also available through insight timer for free. So look to the songs for the songs

Judy Unger 50:41
are also on. Some of them are on iTunes. I mean, I have on my blog, all my recordings for free as well on the Judy, younger music under song stories. It’s interesting because I’ve written 52 songs, somebody said to me, You have a full deck that actually, I have one for every week of the year. But I have enough songs to start another course. So the one that’s a paid course is called songs of healing and hope. And they’re not all grief songs. They’re songs about communication. I ended my marriage and, and all these songs about finding clarity, but I’m starting to write another course I don’t know what I’m going to name it, but I just go song by song, my Bible. It’s like each song has taught me something. Yeah, what you said about growth. I call my song song seeds. And I call my songs my song garden. those seeds were planted when I was young, and now I get to grow them. And you were talking about grief on your site about your berries. But who knows when you’re buried, what growth is going to come from that. And that’s reminds me of the butterfly. The grief is your darkness, you’re in a cocoon, and one day will emerge.

Brian Smith 51:48
And that’s a great point. And you know, it’s funny, I was just talking with someone the other day about the whole idea of about being in a cocoon, there’s a couple of things, you know that when the caterpillar goes in the cocoon, it takes patience, it takes a while for that Caterpillar to come out. So don’t rush your grief process. You know, and and God, it’s great that you after 18 years that Okay, now I’m going to start really processing my grief. But it’s still it takes us all a while. The other thing about a caterpillar, it would love that analogy. It’s a beautiful analogy, Caterpillar to a butterfly. But when the caterpillar crossing the into the cocoon, what people don’t realize it, it actually releases this digestive enzyme, and it becomes suit basically, it just just itself. So at some point in that process, it’s just a liquid mess. And that’s what we feel like when we’re going through grief. But we’ve got all the components, we need to rebuild ourselves and rebuild ourselves into something better. So when people say, am I ever going to be the same after my grief? I say I hope not. Because otherwise you’ve wasted all this pain. You’ve got to take this and make something out of it. No, that is so true. That is so true. Yeah, I

Judy Unger 52:54
think about the fact that people probably thought I had healed after 10 years. I mean, of course I I was coping, surviving. And this is the thing. I went from being a survivor of grief to healed and what was the difference? healing represents joy. But when I found joy through my music, that’s when I discovered healing. I didn’t know about it, and I had no idea that would ever happen. I did not believe I would ever. I mean, of course, yes, there’s laughter and this and that. But I mean, the joy of looking forward to waking up in the morning. And I think my appreciation for my life is so great, because I suffered so much. I’m so grateful that I don’t wake up with that pain that I can look forward to every day that there is such joy with my songs. And people will say, Oh, your music is so sad. But when my music makes me cry, that’s what heals me. It releases those tears. I wanted to make me cry. It has to be so beautiful, that it burrows into my heart and extracts those words, those words that help to heal me.

Brian Smith 54:04
Yeah. Well, you know, it’s interesting, because I remember after after Shayna passed away, and I was, you know, don’t listen to music every day, and I would take my walks. And I was thinking why do I like to listen to sad music, but I and I just just the other day I put on a song. I was like, I know this song is gonna make me cry. But there are times when you just need that you need that release. And then the music kind of takes those emotions that are that are tied up inside of you and brings them out.

Judy Unger 54:29
Exactly. I mean, I didn’t have music and I didn’t listen to music for all those years. I was grieving I call it. I was screaming in silence my hands. And I had that opera, replaying his death over and over.

Brian Smith 54:45
Yeah, what do you think? I want to thank you for putting your course out there and for making it available to all of us and I’ve already recommended it to people. I’m doing this podcast and recommend it to everybody that’s listening. If you’ve gone through any kind of a grief situation to get inside time or get the course go to Judy’s website and, and take advantage of it. You know, I appreciate you, you putting it out there.

Judy Unger 55:08
Yeah. And I think also what’s very cool now on insight timer are the live sessions. And I started doing them because it’s an opportunity for me to actually have a live session where I’m not reading a script I’ve written I work really hard to write these lessons. Now unlike you, this is why I had good practice with this today. I get to talk about the song and I play my guitar. I actually sing the song so then I can play beside me always. And I can sing to my son. It takes courage because I don’t think I’m you know, the Super Singer. But this is exactly what I want to be doing. I’m living my dream.

Brian Smith 55:44
Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks, Judy, for being here and have brightens your day.

Judy Unger 55:48
I love looking at Shana, I want you to tell to tell you, it’s like there’s this light to the side of her face. And it sort of parallels you. And it’s lighting your face. And I can feel like she’s right here with us.

Brian Smith 56:04
Oh, yeah, she is she is absolutely thank

Judy Unger 56:06
you again. And to anybody listening. I just say never give up hope. Absolutely.

Brian Smith 56:15
And now, here’s a passage from beside me always by Judy Unger.

Judy Unger 56:21
When I say the opera began, I am describing my torture thought process during bereavement. It took at least 10 years before the opera of Jason’s death stopped. I would describe the opera as those last moments before the curtain dropped, and I touched my dead child. Those events played out in a looping format for me every day for years, I relive the last moments of my son’s life over and over again. It was truly the only way that something is unbelievable as his death could eventually be accepted. After Jason had his heart surgery, I went home because he was alive and I could collapse. I told my husband I would he would be there and I would stay with our younger son. I came home passed out on the bed with my baby, my two year old in the darkness. Suddenly I woke up and I see wave of dread came over me that sent chills throughout my body. I had a pit in my stomach that was deeper than anything I’d ever experienced. in terror, I will myself to stay calm. My fear only increased with the jarring sound of the telephone. The voice on the other end said I needed to come to the hospital right away. She said my son was not doing very well. I found out later Jason had already died when that call was made. I experienced the worst panic attack of my life. I could not stop shaking. My heart pounded loudly I could not hear or think where the hell wear my shoes, my role my glasses, my keys. I woke up my younger son and shrieked as I brought him to this babysitter. The drive to the hospital was the longest drive of my life. I thought I was having my head explode. My heart was pounding and pounding. I ran through hallways, I couldn’t remember where the pediatric intensive care unit was. Suddenly I saw my husband at the end of the hallway. He was running towards me crying loudly. He saw a piece gone. I started screaming we we were all screaming and crying so loudly because the unthinkable that happens. There was no way for me to have prepared myself for this. My husband was always shy and discreet. I had never seen him cry before our sobs and Wales went on and on. The surgeon came to see us she was crying too. I dismissed her go away. I decided I didn’t have to listen to any more medical jargon about cardiac abnormalities ever again. We were told we had to wait they needed to fix our child up in order for us to see him. It was soon time for me to go in and facing that. My son would be the first dead person I had ever seen in my life.

I could not see his freckles because his face was frosty white. The most shocking part was his blackened lips. His eyes were open, unforgettable, lifeless and empty. I will never forget those eyes for the rest of my life. Only the night before. Those same eyes were intelligence sparkling with joy and laughter. There was no question he was gone. And this was only a course. He felt so cold. I held on to him as long as I could. I cried and cried. And so the bereavements period of my life began and Opera In my mind over and over, it had no melody or music. It was endless and it went on and on for me. Well, life continued for everyone and everyone else around me. I collapsed in shock. What about my continued existence? I wanted to be with my son. I wanted to be dead. Where have you gone? He needed me so much. How could it be possible that he didn’t need me anymore? It didn’t seem possible. I went to those places over and over again. He’s cold, he’s hungry. He’s scared. He’s alone. He needs me. The truth was that I needed him. I had been his caregiver. And I didn’t know what I was supposed to do. I went home and into his bedroom and covered my head with his pillow, the one that still had his odor on it. I cried enough tears to Bill an ocean. Why was I still alive? This was too much pain to possibly live with. books have been written about the stages of grief. I have lived all of those stages. The numbness was bizarre, there was no sense of time. Eating, sleeping living, seemed outside the realm of what it once was. There was no purpose for anything anymore. There was no way to control the endless parade of intensely painful, repetitive thoughts. I looked at the sky. Could he be there? I looked at a bird at a butterfly. Could he be visiting me? I strained to hear his voice again. Was he calling for his mommy. There was no color in the world anywhere. There was nothing but Shades of Grey. Within a day the weather became cold. I felt the season changed on the very day he died on October 6. Life continued for everyone and everything else around me, it did not seem possible that it could get any worse. It did not seem possible that it could get any better. It was what it was empty, sad, excruciating, endless. When I finally connected with other bereaved parents, we all agreed about such things as it was much harder in six months than the day it happens. Six months mark the absolute lowest moments. It’s six months, the support was gone. Everyone expected me to get on with my life. It was time to just get over it. At six months, the shock was just starting to wear off. And the painful reality was only just beginning. The first year was extremely painful. Every event was the first, the first Mother’s Day The first birthday. It was horrible. Much I wasn’t there to celebrate it. And then the second year was worse than the first year. I believed i’d survived the first year but it wasn’t getting any easier. It was discouraging. It felt like life as I knew it was not worth living anymore. There was truly no hope of getting better. I met another bereaved mother once and she said to me, it took me about seven years and seven years the agony will subside and you will definitely start feeling a little better. Well, she was right about that. In those agonizing years, I raised my other children, I had to get used to the idea of not taking care of Jason anymore. I had done it so well for five years. I didn’t know how to stop suddenly.

I was always proud of my survival, and I considered it My greatest achievements. But As the years passed, I felt like I was wounded and damaged. I seldom mentioned migraine. And I just learned that being angry, isolated me and led to further loneliness. One day I decided surviving wasn’t enough for me anymore. I expressed my honest feelings through writing and music, and I unburden my soul. I never realized how much energy was required to hold everything in. I believed I was incapable of happiness, after suffering the loss of what I had so deeply loved. I thought the best times in life were behind me. But I’m so grateful because I don’t feel that way anymore.

Brian Smith 1:04:32
That’s it for another episode of grief to growth. I sure hope you got something out of it. Please stay in contact with me by reaching out at www grief to growth.com that’s grief, the number two growth.com or you can text the word growth to 31996. That’s simply text growth gr o w t h 231996. So if you’re watching this on YouTube, please make sure you subscribe so that the subs scribe button and then hit the little bell here and it’ll notify you when I have new content. Always please share the information if you enjoy it that helps me to get more views and get the message out to more people. Thanks a lot and have a wonderful day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Dr. Hensley’s parents knew she was special before she was born. Celestial beings visited her father and told her she would be special. When you watch this interview, you’ll realize they were right. She is a powerful being. Her joy, wit, wisdom, and pure love of life comes at you when you’re engaged in a conversation with her.

Like many of my NDE interviews, we had technical issues. Her camera on her laptop wouldn’t work, even though she had done a Zoom the day before. Then, the signal in her building was too weak to do the interview with her phone. Finally, undeterred, she did the interview from her car parked on the side of the road. We were not going to be stopped!

Dr. Hensley is a chiropractor and metaphysical healer. She had a near-death experience at the age of 21, a wake-up call of sorts.

In this conversation, we discuss her experience, what she learned and how all of us can learn the lessons of an NDE without having an NDE.

ℹ️ https://www.maryhelenhensley.com





Brian Smith 0:00
Close your eyes and imagine what if the things in life to cause us the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we’ve been buried. But what if, like a seed had been planted, and having been planted, who grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is brief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. This computer Hey everybody, this is Brian. I’m back with another episode of grief to growth and day I’ve got with me Dr. Mary Helen Hensley. And first thing I need to say about Dr. Hensley and she’s very tenacious because like a lot of near death experiences that I’ve had on the show she’s, we’ve had all kinds of electronic problems this morning for me afternoon for her. But she’s doing this from her car because the internet in her office wasn’t working. So I appreciate you hanging in there with me. So we’re going to I’m going to read a short introduction and we’ll just get started. But Dr. henslin, her wit, wisdom and wow are synonymous with her her marriage of no holds barred humor, and honestly coupled with her integrity and her compassion, make her one of Ireland and Europe’s most sought after metaphysical healers and synergistic speakers. After she received a BA in communications and graphic design from Koch University in hartsville, South Carolina she was involved in a high speed collision in Charleston, South Carolina, which resulted in an EN D or near death experience. She was riddled with injuries including a broken neck and she went on to earn a doctor doctorate in chiropractic at Sherman College of Chiropractic in Spartanburg, South Carolina. She was Bennett she’s been endowed with the gift of downloading an individual’s biography in order to change your present state biology. And Dr. Hensley is the author of 10 books, including promise by Heaven. She’s a co author of the number one bestseller bringing death to life. And the first book of audible history, a couple narration, frequency and brainwave states. Understanding is a new miracle. It’s a new healing, miraculous recoveries from physical and emotional trauma. She’s also just released you in the manatee, the first book in her preteen gender identity series along every child, we represent it in children’s literature. So an amazing accomplishment. I’m going to walk them to the show Dr. Mary Hensley.

Mary Helen 2:30
Thank you. I am so glad we made this come together.

Brian Smith 2:34
Yeah, I said, I appreciate your tenacity, and you’re sticking with this. And people might notice right away you do live in Ireland, but you’re obviously not from Ireland.

Mary Helen 2:43
No, I’m from Southern Ireland. I’ve lived in Ireland 22 years, but anyone from the south knows you do not lose this accent. So I’m from Virginia originally. And Virginia is has stuck with me, in my heart and in my throat my whole life.

Brian Smith 3:01
My family, I’ve got roots in the south too. And I love the two names Mary Helen. So I Oh, yeah. Yes. So I appreciate you doing this. I wanted to have you on I’ve heard you speak before you talk about your nd E and your how that’s changed your life. But so I’d like for you to tell people kind of a little bit about your story. How you you’re Indian, and wherever you’d like to start. Just just jump right in.

Mary Helen 3:25
Well, we started beginning How about that? Yeah. So my dad was a

Unknown Speaker 3:32
kid still trying to mess with me. Hold

Brian Smith 3:33
on. Okay.

Mary Helen 3:35
Can you hear me now?

Brian Smith 3:36
Yeah, here, you know,

Mary Helen 3:37
we are doing this interview y’all regardless, yeah, we’re gonna make it worse, whoever’s doing it, you can keep trying, but this is happening. So basically, let’s go back to 1968 when my mother was pregnant with me, and my father being you know, we’re Southern Baptist, and he was a big football coach, American football player, but he was also a minister, and, you know, very much so devout with his, you know, with his parameters around Christianity and what that meant for him. And when he and my mother were called into the doctor’s office, and they said, We have bad news that you need to get get your head around. My mother was in her first trimester and she contracted German measles. And so back in the day, this was really bad news today, it’s not as big of a deal because we have means to deal with that. But back then that meant limb loss blindness. If the child even made it in the first place. This was just not something they wanted to hear. So off, my parents go to digest the idea that this fourth child who’s coming along in their 40s is not going to be okay. So my dad has what he describes as a celestial visit. And this was so fascinating, because remember, this is the man of the Bible here and said, we think we’d be talking about anything. Angels or whatever. But this was, he described as two celestial beings. And I think that was his way of going. I don’t know if these were aliens, I don’t know what they were, but they weren’t, they weren’t angelic in their presence. And so this was a really tough thing for him to have to fit in that box that he had created for himself. And, but he couldn’t deny it, because it’s what happened. And so during this visit, he is told that not only will his daughter be okay, but that she was going to come in with some very unusual abilities, and that he and my mother were, were were to help me through that. So remember, this is I was born in early 1969. We didn’t have gender reveals and ultrasounds and all that. So they’re telling him that I’m going to be a girl, and they’re going to that I’m going to have some unusual abilities. So sure enough, can you imagine the baby girl was born and my dad’s like, okay, so they were constantly on the lookout, waiting, you know, like, Okay, what are these weird abilities? You know, can I fly going on. And it was about when I was four, when the first big conversation about this took place. And my very best friend in the world was my grandfather. He was Dr. Garland Clark, he was a surgeon from Kentucky, my mother’s father, and I love this man, oh, my gosh, I love this man. And he was so wonderful. And he was just such a huge part of my childhood, and to this day, but he would come and he would sit with me, he’d tell me stories, he was always grooming me prepping me for for service. I can look back at that now. And see, that’s exactly what was happening. I was learning to see the world in a completely different way from a very, very early age. And so when I would bounce in, and I’d tell my mother and father, you know, we nicknamed him judge with his name. And so as judge said that, they just kind of side glance at one another. And finally, my dad could not take it anymore. And so I get called into the kitchen. That’s why I call it the Kitchen Table Talk. And he sits me down and in that big voice, that Southern Southern voice, he said, sugar, do you know the difference between alive and dead? I was four. And I’m like, I don’t know what you’re talking about, you know, I really didn’t understand. And it was then that they proceeded to tell me that judge, my grandfather had been dead since I was one. So now mom and dad are starting to see what those celestial beings were talking about, okay, this child’s talking to the dead. And so, but they couldn’t deny it. So this is what was so fascinating that this has to unfold, where they have their own parameters of what’s real and not real to them. Yet, they’re having to accept that this child who couldn’t, you know, I was too young to know how to make something up or to you know, that way. And I was saying stuff that only I could have known had had my grandfather judge set it. So this is the very first thing that they’re having to digest. And that first kind of glimpse of the weirdness. Um, so yeah, that’s, that’s how far back it goes. Wow.

Brian Smith 8:07
That’s, you know, it’s really fascinating. My grandfather was a pastor. So and I grew up in though in his church, and so I understand that that paradigm that people have about the Bible, and when I hear you use the phrase talking to the dead, I know a lot of Christians will whip out their Bibles right away and say, Well, this is not something we’re supposed to do. So how did your parents how did they deal with that? I mean, they they accepted, it was true, I guess I had no choice.

Mary Helen 8:31
I had no choice. Yeah, and not and I didn’t come in with an owner’s manual. And so we were literally kind of bumping along the way, finding our way. But this was an interesting thing. Because this made a huge impact on my life. From early age, my father decided, and I think he was, he was so in awe and so uncomfortable simultaneously. That he said, Look, we understand what’s happening, we know that this is a gift from God, he was very clear about talking about this. But he said, we don’t want to share this outside of the family. In fact, only mom and dad, my siblings didn’t even know. So my father was I don’t know, if he was afraid of exploitation, or what people would say or what people would think, you know, you know, how are you keeping up with the Joneses? We’re good at that and self. And so he was very adamant about the fact that I could speak to them about this, and I had lots to speak about because now, as I’m moving into, you know, like, 910 1112, I’m starting to have prophetic dreams. So I’m dreaming something and then it’s coming true. And dad, being a local minister, of course, was doing eulogies and I’m like, going, Hey, Mr. Jones, go die on Tuesday. And sure enough, Mr. Jones would die on Tuesday. And so what could they do only deal with it and accept it the best way that they could, but I learned from a very early age to keep my mouth shut. And so I did not talk about this outside of the house. Okay, so then when I get older, and what is something that’s, you know, I’m being told all my life, you know, you’re promised and that’s what my father used to say. And that’s why my first book is called promise by Heaven. You know, your promise, that’s how he could deal with it. If something went wrong in my life, look, everything’s gonna be okay. You, you’re promised. And so something that was such a wonderful asset early on as you become an awkward teenager and moving into those college years becomes a liability, right? Because now I’m just a weird day, right? And I’m like, I can’t tell anybody what’s happening. And so when I get into college, I was a cheerleader. And my roommate was the very first person that I ever confided in. Because we live together, we were in the same room 24, seven, we were the best friends. And so I told her about this. And she thought it would be hysterical, because we were both cheerleaders. Let’s see if you can know that score the basketball game. So I’d write the score the basketball day, game day On we go cheer, and we come back and open it up. And there it was, do you know. And so this is the extent of my service to humanity until I turn 21. And where it all gets very interesting is you haven’t people in the south, you know, if you’re dating the same person that you were dating in college, your mom’s picking out the China patterns, right? So I was dating my college sweetheart, he was from Charleston, South Carolina. And so I move that direction, because we were going to carry forward and you know, we’ll get engaged and get married, and do that do all that. So I had a job in a sign company, and I wasn’t making signs or using my graphic design degree to design, I was mopping floors, it was literally the only job I could get. And it was the best thing that ever happened to me, because it taught me how to appreciate value and be grateful for everybody’s position within a business from the bottom up. And it’s been one of the most beautiful gifts I’ve ever had in my life, you know. And so I’m on the way to our Christmas party for the sign company. It’s December 14 1991. And I’m wearing bright red Bermuda shorts and a Santa Claus t shirt. And I have a jingle bell around my neck. And I head out and I’m going into Charleston for the party and my way in was on a very large highway called highway 17. So multiple lanes of traffic coming this way and multiple lanes going into town. So I get about less than two miles from my house, I’m sitting at the red light, waiting, waiting, waiting, and my light turns green. And I make it almost all the way across the oncoming traffic to turn towards town. And all of a sudden, I look left and I realized that there is a car that has no intention of stopping. And it was driven by an elderly gentleman who decided to blow through the red light, he almost killed somebody earlier in the year and retain this license just for me. And I’m delighted.

Because he blew through at what they estimated was 75 miles an hour. And what was so fascinating was, in that moment, everything changed my understanding my perception of reality, everything changed before I got hit. This is where it gets interesting. Yeah. Because time slowed down. And that car is now creeping, and the preacher’s daughter is sitting in the car with the sudden realization, oh, I’ve done this before I’ve died before I know how this works. I’m in complete control of how I want to experience this, okay, that car is going fast, that’s going to hurt, I know I’m going to die. So do I want to stay in the body and experience the impact. And I didn’t feel like that was necessary for my own growth and evolution. And so I’m like I’m out of here. So as soon as I made that choice, there was a sound. And this is why I’m so in love with working with frequency because there was this drone. And I started to feel my whole constitution change. And that drone was allowing me to disconnect from the physical body and elevate above. And as soon as I was up and out of the body, everything sped back up again. And I witnessed my own death. So I’m already out of the body. And this is where I want to stop and tell anybody who’s listening. If you have lost somebody like all of us had, you know, a loved one, under tragic circumstances, due to an illness due to old age, whatever. Please be aware that this is what happens in the death process with us. We are completely at ease completely at peace regardless of what the appearance may see. If someone is pointing a gun and they shoot that bullet slows down the very same as that car. And the soul occupying that body has all the time in the universe to decide exactly how they’re going to go and they are fully aware that they’re ready to take their exit. So there is no such thing as Oh, this one should have lived longer. That’s our perception. That’s our feelings of grief and loss. We want to take over or hijack somebody else’s death experience so that it makes us feel more comfortable. And this happens all the time. And I love the title of your show grief to growth, because there it is right there.

Brian Smith 15:09
I really appreciate you saying that. I’m part of an organization called helping parents heal. And the reason I do this work is my daughter passed away, you know, five years ago, and I work with a lot of parents who have had children who have transitioned through tragic circumstances. And one of the common things is, did they suffer? You know, were they were they there when the accident happened? Where the bullet as you said, No, did they? Did they suffer? Did they? What was that experience, like?

Mary Helen 15:37
That experience is different for every individual. But what you have to know is, this is where we’ve really got to go. You don’t get to when everything’s going well. And life is good. And you know, everybody’s happy around you and you’re feeling great, you know, all the universes out the way I hear in my neck of the woods. Jesus is at the wheel all the time, except for when he’s not exactly know. Exactly. Y’all don’t get to do that, because that is ironclad universal law that this is across. Across the board, hold on, I’m gonna have to turn the car on here from a battery comes on. Okay. So this is universal law. So that applies to everybody in every circumstance, period. Okay. So just because or if a drug deal Went, went down and went bad if somebody was was murdered, if somebody got hit in a car accident, if someone took their own life, the circumstances are the very same. And this is where we have to deprogram our minds, because we get so caught up in our religious tenets and our judgments, except when it applies to us, you know, oh, now, yeah. Oh, my gosh, suicide, that’s awful thing that’s, uh, you know, when it’s somebody else’s kid, and then all of a sudden, when it’s your own child, you’re like, Well, Jesus takes everybody, you know, we are so full of it, it is so funny. And so what I want people to understand is that this is across the board for everybody. And so it was amazing, regardless of the circumstances behind the death at that time of death, even if the body is giving the appearance of great suffering, the soul has the capacity to raise and lower out of the body, and it is going to experience the death exactly the way it wants to experience the death. Because it’s at the wheel, it is by divine ordinance that this death is taking place that that soul chose to come in. And the human race has become so horrible about quantifying the value of a life based on its quantity. Oh, gosh, they were 17 years old, had a whole life ahead of them. And I’m going Listen, in my line of work, I have worked with so many people who have been forever changed, so deeply impacted by a baby that never made it out of the womb. Do you know, so to put a value on somebody’s life and their contribution to the lives around them based on the time that they’re here? It is crazy. It just makes no sense.

Brian Smith 18:08
Yeah, well, it is a very human thing that we do. And with my again, my daughter transitioning at 15 I hear that a lot of times, you know, it’s so tragic. Her life was cut short. And as a parent, you know, I feel that way sometimes, too. But then I look at ethical

Unknown Speaker 18:21

Brian Smith 18:22
Yeah, by looking at the impact that her life has had, you know, for her only being 15 years. And as you said, it’s a huge impact and even a baby that doesn’t come in. We don’t even know what impact that might have on the parents and the ripple effects as it goes out.

Mary Helen 18:36
Totally. Absolutely. Yeah. So we’ve put some some strange little motions around death. And you know, the funny thing is like for for me having been there and come back death is like walking from one room into the next. Yeah. And we have made it such a you know, a horrible thing. Of course, we miss the physical presence like my father. He died in 2012. I love this man. He was amazing. So motivational, very uplifting, such a disciplined, incredible man. And my mom was the preacher’s wife and his wing woman for 60 years. And when he died, everybody thought my mom was going to be right after him. My mom is vibrant. She’s 91. She just released her first book this Christmas, and has number two ready to come out. You know, she is incredible. She would tell you that she loved and adored my father more than anything they had 60 wonderful years together. But a different chapter in her life began because of my father’s passing. Yeah. And so it is crucial for people to understand that if you want to lose yourself to grief, that is a choice. And that doesn’t mean that you know and all of us grieve differently. But some of us get so stuck in that cycle of grief, that we never come back out of it again. And there’s the life wasted, not the one that was tragically taken or, or whatever though. The life wasted is the one that has literally parked Setup can’t pitch the tent built a fire in his roasted marshmallows in grief.

Brian Smith 20:05
Yeah, thank you. Amen. So I interrupt your story, let’s get back to your to your near death experience. So you leave your body what happens next

Mary Helen 20:13
there I am freshly dead, and hovering over the body and everything sped up. So I watched that car hit my car, and I watched everything kind of unfold underneath. And all of a sudden, the sounds began to change. So it went from that kind of low vibration that seemed to be keeping me connected to my physical body. And it changed to what I call the music of the spheres. It was the most incredible Symphony, nothing that I could ever replicate, hear these beautiful sounds, and I’m suddenly in a different space. And this space is like Grand Central Station. And everybody’s like, Oh, is that heaven. That’s not how it works. Again, that’s a setup that we’ve created with our human minds. And I’m in this space where I am literally feeling everything around me the colors, the sounds coursing through, it’s not my physical body, but I still have a feeling of, of having a form. But it’s now an energetic form. And I got I could stay there as long as I want to do. And I was aware of who I just been. I was sick, then suddenly super smart, because all of a sudden the veil was lifted. And I remembered, and you’re like, this is the big O This is when you’re so deeply involved in the Monopoly game that you actually believe you can buy Park Place with a pink $500 bill. This is when you pack the game up. And you go Oh, yeah, that was just a game. Oh, it allowed me a chance to interact with the other people that I was playing the game with. And oh, we laughed and how we fought and how we cried and oh, oh my gosh. That’s what it’s like when you land in that space. It’s incredible. And there’s no sense of oh my gosh, I need to get back in my body. Oh, what am I left behind? Oh, oh, no. It’s not like that. And the best description I still to date have ever been able to give is if you are outside and it was a hot day and you are nasty and sweaty and you’ve been mowing the lawn or doing whatever and you walk in the back door. And you peel off those dirty clothes and you throw them down by the washing machine. And you go get into the the best shower ever. The last thing you’re thinking of in that shower is the dirty clothes sitting by the washing machine. And that is what it’s like leaving the human body.

Brian Smith 22:26
Yeah, yeah, I love that. And I love the way you put I’ve heard it described different ways like taking off, you know, coat or, you know, something like that. So when we look back at the body, we Some people say, Well, I appreciate it, but I don’t have a connection to it.

Mary Helen 22:38
Correct? Exactly, exactly. So now I’m kind of floating in this fabulous space. And I’m like, Okay, this is amazing. And out of that atmosphere, literally, it starts to form shape, and to being stepped forward. And I know that this is for my benefit. And this takes me back to my father’s celestial visit. And I think then I realized, Oh, that was my father’s guides, those were my father’s guides, we oh my gosh, we’ve got guides, wow. Because you forget. So this, again, is a place where I want to stop and take calls and remind every single person who’s listening, who is either here and and, and struck by grief or has lost somebody and worrying about what happens with them. We all have guides all the time. You’re never alone. So even in that darkest moment, if you’ve lost somebody that you think to immortal suffering, and they were so alone, and so heartbroken, sorry. That’s not how it works at the death process, because they are there and they are juiced up and ready to go. And they are not alone. So you can imagine preacher’s kid, I’m like, I thought Jesus was supposed to be here What’s going on? And then I’m like, Well, where’s where’s the dead relatives. And instead, it’s these two guys who I, I’m just like, Oh my gosh, you have been with me since the dawn of time. And it is the best homecoming ever. And so I got the chance just to to absorb that love and to be in that space and to feel that. But then it was time to move into the life review. And this is where it gets super interesting. Because I land in a space then with them by my side. And it’s like a cinema, a 360 degree cinema. So now my whole reality has just changed yet again. And now I’m sitting in this and my idea or concept of what time is. Boom, it explodes right in front of my face. Because I’m sitting here and I’m watching and 360 degrees. I’m watching me getting that Kitchen Table Talk at 4am watching me getting my driver’s license at 16. I’m winning Living History Day in junior high at 12. I’m being gang raped at 17 all of these things are happening simultaneously And I’m like, oh my gosh. Oh, yeah. That’s how this works. It’s all happening at the same time. Yeah, it’s almost impossible for a human brain to wrap their to get around that it’s like nearly impossible. It’s all happening simultaneously.

Brian Smith 25:17
Yeah, that freaks me out. And that’s been something I’ve been trying to get my head around. Because Einstein said that, you know, 100 years ago that the time is an illusion, but it’s a it’s a, it’s a, it’s one that we can’t get over. It’s like, it’s on my mind. I just can’t get, you know, get that. But that’s what that’s what physicists tell us. That’s what people who had near death experiences tell us that this is all happening at the same time that there really is no time.

Mary Helen 25:42
So again, I’ll go back to that Monopoly game, you and I know when we open up monopoly, we sit down for a friendly game, I am not a shoo in you are not a dog, right. But we take on the illusion and the pink money and the you know, that I can actually by Park Place, come on. And we take on that illusion, and we play that game accordingly. And so the very same thing happens here with time we take on the illusion and agree to come in to linear time, we actually come in and go Okay, time is marching forward, right, that’s just not how it works. It’s more like a merry go round. That’s happening all simultaneously, which makes far more sense when you actually think about it. Because if you’re in the center of that merry go round, and you’re in the park, and you’re just playing. And there is a dog at North wagging its tail, and there is a man serving ice cream cones at East. And then there’s kids playing in the fountain itself, and there’s a mother walking her child in the West. Those things, we have no problem believing that even though my merry go round is spinning, and I might be seeing this one, this one is also taking place. Right? So whatever’s happening in my north, there’s still something happening in the south, just because I’m not looking at it. Right, right. So everything is unfolding simultaneously. So we have the capacity to affect change on our past, our present and our future at the same time. And that is Oh, my God, the sacred of the saints. There it is right there.

Brian Smith 27:13
Yeah. And I’m actually it’s interesting, you said that I’m reading a book right now called the team, it’s by a woman named Francis key who her mother channeled the book to her. And this there’s a concept that we can actually change our past that. And that’s just again, that’s another thing that’s beyond my human mind to grasp.

Mary Helen 27:31
Well think about it, people come You know, I work as a, you know, I have I have my doctor’s hat on during the day. And then I have other hours as a metaphysical healer. And one of the things that came back with that, after the accident was the capacity to touch somebody, and I could kind of download the hard drive. And it would take me to the point in time, where the individual changed their physical constitution. And so yeah, I have a, you know, brain cancer, you know, Alzheimers net, you name it, the capacity to go in and heal those things, if it’s part of the person’s path. And that’s important. That is important. There are some people who aren’t here to be healed, there are some people that it is none of your business to go in and hijack the way they are choosing to leave the planet. But if you are invited in and you are allowed to elicit change, what I’m actually doing is I am going back to that time, where they actually changed their molecular structure. And that can happen physically, emotionally or spiritually. And so all we’re doing in the moment of a healing is going in and going, Hey, this is already healed. And this has already happened, right and left a piece of yourself in that drape at 12 years old. And you need to bring that back forward. Now let’s bring that back. And let me wipe that window clean so that you can see this for yourself. And you go heal that body up. Yeah, that’s how people actually heal. And so it is very much so a a time thing as in people are time traveling every single day of their lives and don’t even realize it.

Brian Smith 29:04
Yeah, that’s really that’s really cool. And that’s a really, and that’s something I want people to kind of meditate on it for me, I have to anyway to keep reminding ourselves that this is an illusion in a very real sense that we step into, and talking to someone like yourself, who has been able to step out of it and look at it from that higher perspective. Again, it’s something we can all learn from.

Mary Helen 29:27
And I’m not here to take that illusion away from people either. What I’m here to do is just remind because people are going to be at different stages in their journey. It’s like the idea that we think nobody wants to be sick. That’s That’s not true. Right? Look, I’ve been doing this for 30, nearly 30 years. And the if you think that everybody wants to be healed, and well, you’re mistaken, because there are some people whose illnesses are affording them opportunities in life that if they were in a state of wellness, they couldn’t have Yeah, I’ve watched family units change because an individual got sick. And so had that sickness never taken place, that unit would have never changed. I have watched it oh my gosh, I mean, there’s a million stories about that. And so it’s really, really important that we realize that we don’t have the right to intervene with other people’s stories unless we’re invited in to do so. It’s like right now, like, every one of us is being affected by the global pandemic, right. But what we are forgetting and what people are using, and it’s so backhanded, the way we’re bullying worse, we’re passive aggressively bullying one another. You don’t get to choose whether I live or die. That’s my business. Right? you’re terrified because I don’t have a mask on. You wear your mask, and you stay away from me. Right? And it’s a very personal choice and decision as to how people want to go like my mother, like I showed you vibrant, amazing. That girl is going to get her hair done every Thursday. He doesn’t care what’s going on out there. Do you know? Yeah, and that is her choice at 91. She says, I choose to take my risk and interact with other human beings. Now I’ve lived a brilliant life, I’ve lived a great life. And if if it gets made, she’s already had it and got through it. By the way. She know if it gets me, so be it. But I do not want to be a prisoner of my own home in these my most glorious years, when I want to revel in the love and companionship and affection of my family. And I’m like, wow, wow, do you know, yet people are attempting to take that right away from her. Right. And people have their own opinions about this. But I just think our behavior is so funny. Because if this were a lethal and deadly disease, every single individual who comes in contact with it would die. And this like any other human experience, it’s not killing everybody. It is definitely killing some people. This is not to say that it’s not real. But like I said before, this is universal law. You know, the way that the universe operates is the same across the board at all times under all circumstances. And so the very same as we’ve all seen that birthday card where you got the 100 year old lady whose lightener birthday camera candle with a cigarette. Yeah, if everyone who smoked if cigarettes always cause cancer, everyone who smokes would all have cancer. But it’s not on the life path. It’s a tool in order to enable somebody to get to cancer, right? That’s part of their journey.

Announcer 32:29
We’ll get back to grief to growth in just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian is an author and a life coach. If you’re grieving or know someone who is grieving his book, grief to growth is a best selling easy to read book that might help you or someone you know, people work with Brian as a life coach to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers at www grief to growth.com www dot g ri e f, the number two, gr o w th calm or text growth gr o w th 231996. If you’d like to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com slash grief to growth www.pa t ar e yo n.com slash g ri e f the number two gr o w th to make a financial contribution. And now back to grief to growth.

Mary Helen 33:30
Yeah, another example of that my father, everyone, all the men in my, in my family and everybody on my mother’s side, they all had heart issues all of them, right? So I pop up with this, I’m in my 50s with this high cholesterol thing. And I’m going this is makes no sense. And my doctor goes, You know what, instead of putting you on a medication, let’s go have a look. So I just did this amazing heart scan where they go in and they take out slices and they’re looking in, and they’re seeing the plaquing. So they can ascertain your risk of heart disease due to you know, cholesterol being high. Could be a factor but not always. Right. So he gets in there. And he goes, I can’t believe this. He goes you don’t have an ounce of plaquing. your cholesterol going high is obviously your body’s doing some repair work. And so what do we do most people that hear the high cholesterol? We throw them on a Staten, right because they’re just so lazy and so used to it right?

Brian Smith 34:26
Yeah. So it’s time to go

Mary Helen 34:28
outside. Now when I beat my family’s history, I am not my father’s genetics, right, the opportunity to express that was there for me if that’s how I want it to go. But I opted for a different path. And this is what we all need to remember. Each and every one of us is playing out our own story. You are what you love and what you love is what you give your attention to. And if you live in constant fear that that virus is going to get you You better be sure that things don’t come knocking Your door, you know, because you’re literally vibrationally attracting the experience into your life.

Brian Smith 35:05
Okay, interesting. So your near death experience. So you see the guides, and what happens after that.

Mary Helen 35:12
So they go Well, after I have my life review, and I’m looking at these 21 years I go, You know what? Oh, oh, although all those weird abilities you guys gave me that I came in with. I was supposed to actually be doing something with those, right? So yeah, and it wasn’t predicting the score at a basketball game. And so I’m like, oh, and then I suddenly realized that I had me set up the opportunity for myself to die in this accident, in order to come and remember what I actually went in. It’s so cliche, it’s not even funny. I was 21. Come on, I hit adulthood, I had given myself 21 years to discover for myself that I was actually here to serve. And I didn’t discover that for myself. So I put in a safety net. Well, if you’re that ignorant that you got to that you weren’t using these amazing gifts that you have, you’re gonna go through this accident. And you’re going to come back and you’re going to remember and I’m like, Oh, I got it. Got it. Put me in coach, I’m back again. Okay, so, back I go. And I, you know, I come into a body that’s completely broken and mangled, which is an important part of my discovery. Because it was a chiropractor who piece me back together. And my grandfather judge comes to me after the accident, and he says, we’re sending you to chiropractic school. We as in like the team, and and I’m going chiropractic school, aren’t those guys quacks? What is that? What’s that? What are you talking about? Hang on, I want to go be a real doctor, I wouldn’t be a medical doctor, if you’re gonna make me go back through school all over again. And he said, We need for you to understand a vitalistic approach to the human body. You are not you’re pieces and parts. You are not just a meatsuit. You are a body occupied by a soul. And that body is in service to you. Talk about a game changer. Yeah. And I’m like, hold on a second. So illness is not the enemy. No, no, no. The body is designed to align itself misaligned itself, bring in disease processes, go into certain emotional states in order to serve you. So that you might experience the world via those illnesses. Oh my gosh. And all we’re doing is trying to medicate it and take it out and cut it out. And, oh, I had to go through that vitalistic approach to the human body in order to do what I do today. And so that’s how that’s how I became a chiropractor. And that’s how I began practicing metaphysics. That’s that way. So it was never about, you know, the ego would love to go, Hey, look who I healed. And luckily, I that lasted about 30 seconds in my life. Yeah, it was very cool. In the beginning, when you could touch somebody in your cancer would go away. And then I grew up very fast and what that’s not what I’m here for. I’m here to assist someone along their journey in whatever shape that takes. And sometimes, sometimes it’s death. Yeah. present for as many deaths as I have healings, because death is not the enemy.

Brian Smith 38:27
Yeah, I think it’s really, really important point. I was speaking with someone the other day, that who’s a healer. And one of the things about healers is when we when when the body isn’t healed, we look at that is out from the outside is that was a failure. And we’re saying that that, you know, that’s the idea that death is the enemy. And, you know, again, people talk to me about my daughter, you know, her passing early and I’m like, but we all transition we we all go back, we’re not here to be here forever. And so we this idea of clinging to the body and that a long life is the best life. I don’t I don’t believe that that at all. So

Mary Helen 39:01
did you start this podcast because of her?

Brian Smith 39:03
I did. Yeah, absolutely.

Mary Helen 39:05
So you look at the the number of lives that you are touching. And so to a soul, who is divine, omnipotent, eternal and knows it. If they’re gonna come in and go, you know what he’s got a job to do. I’m gonna go in and I’ll do 15 no problem. We’re part of the same soul group. Absolutely. I’ll go in, I’m doing that. And I’ll take my lead, because that will prompt him to step into the shoes he laid out for himself in service to humanity. And that’s why she does what she does. And that’s why you do what you do.

Brian Smith 39:39
Yeah. And that’s, that’s a really hard concept for a parent to hear in the first time. I’ve been hearing this for a while now. And I’ve gotten to a point where I can accept it, but then that’s what that’s why I do the program because I want I want everybody to understand that everything that happens in our life is here to serve us. And I love what you said about you know, and I’m still not quite To understand soul planning, but it sounds like when you set up your plan, you set up a kind of contingency you like I’m going to come in with these abilities. But if I don’t wake up by 21, I’m going to put this this reminder. And I saw the near death experience is kind of like a, it’s a wake up call for that person. It’s a it’s a real

Mary Helen 40:16
freewill baby. Yeah, you know, that’s what it is. And it What’s so funny is people’s tend to put up on a pedestal or have this great reverence for the near death, or you know, that we are, oh, my god, they’re fabulous. And I get invited to speak in lots of places. And it’s fabulous. You know, I’m the one in Ireland here. We say when somebody’s sick, they don’t get it. The NDA happened to the thick ones, because we came in to do something and we weren’t doing it. And so we had to go through that process. And they tend to pick those of us who have a big mouth, and we’re going to end up going and sharing the story with everybody. Yeah. And that’s how it happened. So it’s not because I was so special, or the chosen one. It’s because I wasn’t doing what I came here to do. I set it up for myself, and I didn’t do it.

Brian Smith 41:00
Well, I think it’s both. Well, I got glad you said that. I don’t think i think it’s it’s also like, here’s a message I want you to deliver. And the people that I’ve talked to that have indeed, it’s like they come back and they’re on a mission. It’s like, it’s not just for that person that has it. It’s for all of us. And what I tell people is, let’s learn without having an N D, let’s talk to the IRS and find out what they learned.

Mary Helen 41:26
Exactly. And that’s why I’ve been using frequency and vibration to help people heal ever since because I’ve been replicating these frequencies that I’ve that I was, you know, surrounded with in that space, because it bypasses all the mind chatter. And it allows somebody to go back into a space temporarily where they disconnect and go, Oh, yeah, I remember what this is all about. And when they get really centered, that way, they’re able to go out and they’re able to live differently. It doesn’t mean they’re living without challenge, but they’re living without the fear of the challenge. And it makes the life experience completely different. You know, your daughter, what she’s gifted you with? Is your own healing. Because any of us who are in this business, whether it’s podcasting about it, writing books about it, we’re all finding our own healing, and we’re just sharing it along the way with other people.

Brian Smith 42:12
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So when you when you came back, you’re 21 year old you decide to go to chiropractic school, what was your reintegration like because some people have trouble reintegrate? Oh,

Mary Helen 42:23
boy. Yeah, well, you know, I mentioned that college sweetheart, you know, we went on and got married, because he was terrified, he was going to lose me. And I was terrified, because I would have just happened. And so we got married, I ended up marrying my best friend. And I’m standing because it’s like, your time traveling constantly. I’m at the end of the aisle looking at a man at the end of the church. And I knew it was going to be exactly four years and 27 days and three hours and 57 minutes, that we were going to be married. That was a challenge. Because all of a sudden, I could see, oh, every moment is not meant to last for an eternity in this lifetime, as in every relationship, whether it’s for five minutes or for 15 years brings value, each individual’s crossing my path is bringing a gift. And when you’ve got eyes to see the gift, when you are leaving a relationship, whether it’s a working relationship, romantic relationship, a friendship, you can recognize somebody doesn’t have to be wrong for that to come to an end. And if we can accept that it’s naturally progressing towards an end, and can extract the value from that then we can move on peacefully. But that’s not something that a lot of people have mastered. And so it was very strange for me to be able to see that before it was happening. And so I’m coming back in with a completely altered perception of how life works. And so, you know, my kids all the time, we laugh and we have, we were having a conversation about diagnosis is and and I said to the girls, I said you think if they’d had all the all the isms in the Tituss back when I was a kid, do you think if they had my daughter goes, let me stop you there? If and I was like, she basically implies she’s like, you’re like the most autistic person. I know. Your high functioning mom, and we love you very much. But you are so weird. And so you’re walking through life with this completely different understanding. Because you know, I’m opening up the electric bill with a smile on my face. Because in that moment, everything falls into place. And I’m going, I got to go sit in my son or I got to have lights to read by last night. Or I got to write that book on my laptop because I’ve got electricity. Why am I crying? When I opened the bill, I’m not doing that, you know, might be uncomfortable. But I am so grateful for that. I have everything has purpose. Now when I’m even reaching in and pulling the clothes out of the dryer. I’m feeling the texture. I’m feeling the warmth. I’m looking at the dryer going Gosh, and looking at my that I have that. It changes everything because everything becomes a walking meditation.

Brian Smith 44:52
Yeah, I love that. It’s it’s the mindfulness that you that you were speaking speaking of. And that’s that’s why I meditate. Try to develop that, that mindfulness. And that appreciation for life. Another thing you said that was a very, very important lesson that I want to I want to emphasize is that everything in this life is temporary. Every everything in this life is temporary. Besides love, we take love with this. And we need to learn to let things go. And everything in life is a matter of things coming in and things going out. And we want to hold on to everything we want to cling to things, as opposed to just appreciating it for what it is, while it’s here. And, you know, that’s, you know, again, back to my daughter’s why I do this, but now with her being, you know, 15 I’ve had to learn to that physical relationship ended wasn’t my choice. It was abrupt, and I have like, Okay, what am I gonna do with that? What don’t know, how am I going to make that serve me for the rest of the time that I’m here? Mm hmm.

Mary Helen 45:51
That’s it. Exactly. And it’s all about. And that’s why I think what we’re all experiencing together now with this pandemic, there gonna be some people who are experiencing it as terrifying. And there are other people who are going, I’m having the time of my life, I cranked out two books. Last year, I drove across America, I had COVID. Myself, I like I’ve climbed every mountain I’ve had, I’ve been having the best pandemic, ever, right. And it’s creating an opportunity, because what it’s done is it’s taken us from 3d, we’ve blown past 4d, and it’s dropped all of us in five D, which is choice. We have literally lit, we’ve Tesseract out of three dimensions, and moved into five. And that fifth element is choice, we are literally discovering that we can construct our own reality via the choices that we make. And some people are choosing fear. And some people are choosing to experience the virus physically. Some people are using it to clean out there emails or the garage. Some people are like, all of us are having the opportunity to choose how we’re experiencing the time that we’re in right now. And I think it is the most extraordinary time in history. I think it’s incredible. And so you have that chance to go, what am I going to do with this? Well, look what you’re doing, you are utilizing the gift of your daughter’s death in order to impact and help other people move through their grief. And it is extraordinary that you have stepped up, stepped out and put yourself at risk with that. That’s the choice that you’ve made. And it’s absolutely incredible. And things probably wouldn’t be unfolding the same way had we not stepped into the change. There’s so many people who are doing different things because they’ve got more time on their hands. The restrictions are causing them to go inward. They’re having to focus and become creative. And we’re literally creating, we’re inventing out of necessity. And isn’t that you know, Necessity is the mother of all invention and all creation. And that’s where we are right now. And you can either look at that as a Oh, it’s a really horrible time to be alive or going oh, my gosh, where else would you be y’all? This is incredible.

Brian Smith 47:59
Yeah, it is, it is it’s a choice of how we respond to things. And I think that’s, that’s one of the lessons that I’ve gotten, it’s like, you know, the the event happens, and then I can choose how I’m going to respond to it. And, and this, this pandemic is, it’s been hard. It’s been hard for a lot of people, people have lost jobs, people have lost their lives, people have lost loved ones. But it’s also created so many opportunities and different ways of looking at things. And I and I think, you know, in a few months, I was talking my mother yesterday, she just got her first COVID shot. And she she said I got to leave the house and the sun was shining, we’re gonna have such an appreciation for just doing normal things again, when we can, you know, get together and go to a football game or hug our loved ones. I think it’s going to be such a much deeper appreciation. And so we can take this and, and use it to kind of wake ourselves up. Mm hmm.

Mary Helen 48:51
Absolutely. You know, it’s a gift as it as everything is, yeah, it’s all about your perception and how you choose to use that and some of those people who’ve lost jobs, hated the jobs that they were in and didn’t have the courage to step forward and take the risk of leaving the job. And so now now it’s they’ve been pushed, and they’re having to create and go Okay, you didn’t like that job, what you’re gonna do, they’re having to go find who they really are, and they’re having to create a different set of circumstances. And so sometimes that hardship and that struggle is the most wonderful thing that could have ever happened to us.

Brian Smith 49:26
Yeah, I want to ask you about I know your father was was a pastor and that’s my background my grandfather my I come from a whole lot like my his parents were both ministers I come from that background. So how did your father adapt to like what your what’s your understanding of Christianity now for example, and and how did his change after this happened or if it changed

Mary Helen 49:50
the very best way I can describe that, you know, after it never all of it didn’t ever make sense to me growing up. There were things I did not I like the idea of, of some of the limitations and some of what I felt was very strong judgment that was that was being created on God’s behalf. And that didn’t feel in my heart that that, that the god of this description would be the God of who would unfold this as well. And I’m like, that’s, you know, that vengeful and loving combo didn’t work for me, you know, and it just never sat. Right. And I have a very dear friend who I’d love for you to interview someday. Her name is pmh Atwater, and she has probably done more on Dino pmh.

Brian Smith 50:31
I’ve interviewed her three times. Yes.

Mary Helen 50:33
Okay. Brilliant. Yeah, she’s, she’s one. She’s a darling. And my sweetheart. And I love her. And I’m so grateful for the work that she has done is beautiful. Yeah, she is. But she had a picture Once, when she had done, she’d been doing a lot of research on getting people to draw their experience of what the end was like, there was this one kid who had grown up in a Christian family. And this is how I want to answer that question. It was so neat, this kid’s drawing, because how he did it after his indie he was he drew a little box in the left hand corner of the page with a Christina with a cross in it. And the rest of the page was this huge light. And what he was trying to say, was, it’s not that Christianity in its parameters was wrong, but that it was so small, compared to what’s really out there. And I’ll tell you a story that’s very, very important to me. And it’s changed a lot of lies for people who’ve heard this. So I’ve described my dad, you know, the Minister, hardcore disciplinary, and he was physically fit, he won the men’s benchpress, champion of the world at 69. For men over 50. He was, you know, he was taking vitamins before people even knew what they were. He never drank smokes war, he chose a very disciplined lifestyle to come in here and affect change on the lives around him is one I could never keep up with, that’s for sure. But we all have our different ways of approaching our live stories. And so when my father got Alzheimer’s, and everybody thought it was Oh, it’s so sad, and it’s so unfair. And you know, that this beautiful orator is now reduced to babbling, and he can’t even speak anymore. And he’s wearing a diaper. And he’s this and that I never ever saw this as anything but a man who had chosen a life full of discipline, who still had breath and his body was getting to experience something different. And that’s what the soul comes here for. So we were sitting in the nursing home one night, and my father, he’d been months without being able to speak now he was just babbling, that’s all he could do. And my mother and I were sitting in there, he had had a particularly tough day with Sundowners syndrome, total agitation, he shuffled and washed his hands 1000 times, and he would never lay horizontal, because he thought he would die if he did not thought, gosh, how weird that your religion, your faith, that you’ve been teaching people, all of your life abandoned you in the hour that you need it most. And it really was, it was it was hard to watch that. And so on this day, he shuffles over to the bed. And we say he slept sitting up. All of a sudden he gets into the bed and he goes flat. And my mom looks at me. And she’s like, Is this it? What’s he doing? What’s he doing? And one of the things that I’ve always had my entire life is the ability to see the energy or auric field around an individual. And what’s so interesting is when somebody is getting ready to pass, it’s not like the dimmer switch is going down to the light gets dimmer. It’s quite the opposite. It looks like a fireworks display. As the energy is ramping up in there prepping to go home. Wow. So totally different than what you might imagine. It looks like. So my mom’s like, looking at me going, is he dying? He’s dying. And I’m going No, he’s having an experience. So my dad gets into the bed, he lays down. He reaches up and he goes, I can see it. Now my mom and I nearly fall out of the chairs because that he has spoken in months, right? Literally chin on the chest. That’s all I can do. Well clear as a bell. And I’m like, Hey, Dad. And I’m like, What can you say? And he turns to me, and he goes, it’s the lamb beyond the river sugar. And it’s more beautiful than anything you ever wrote about. And I laughed, and I was like, Well tell me about it. And he said, Mama’s there, and she looks so young. And he’s smiling. And he’s watching and my mother is just like, over there in the chair with her mouth hanging open. And I said, wow. And he’s like, this is incredible. She’s so beautiful. And then he stops and he is like a deer in headlights and I said, Dad, you okay? And he goes, Oh my gosh. And I said what he goes, Daddy’s there. Now this was huge, because according to my father’s criteria of what it means to be a good Christian, my grandfather was the Auntie of all of that. And my father had really really suffered throughout his life now. that his father had not made it to heaven. And it really was a big deal for him. So next all of a sudden, my dad seeing his own daddy and the Lambie on the river, and he’s young looking and fabulous look into. And he stops, and after all of those years dedicated to his religion, dedicated to his understanding of what it means to you know, to be a Christian, and you know that the balance between heaven and hell and he turned around, he looks at my mom, and he said, Helen, I’ve had it wrong all along. You can’t mess this thing up. Everybody, everybody’s welcome here.

And that is one of the you want to talk about a mic drop, there it is right there. Because he got the opportunity to understand that everything happens here. Regardless of what our judgments are, every single thing that happens here, doesn’t matter if somebody dies from drug overdose, or suicide, or a cancer or car accident, or a heart attack or a stroke. Those are just circumstances to get you from one room to the other. It’s all about the experience that the soul came here for and the judgment, this idea of going to heaven, or to help, spoiler, spoiler alert people, it doesn’t work like that. We all come from the divine, we are all fractals of the same hole, and we get to return to that same space. And that was one of the most important things I’ve ever experienced.

Brian Smith 56:30
Yeah, and I thank you for sharing that. Because I heard you when I listened to one of your other interviews, you tell that and it just touched me so deeply, because I come from that background, that background of judgment. And even though we’re saved by the blood of Jesus, we still kind of have to be perfect. And we, we can’t drink or smoke or do anything or have any unconfessed sins. And you know, and we we look at some loved ones who said, well, then they didn’t make it. Sorry, they’re gonna have to just burn a turtling. I just have to live with that. And I’m the same as you when I was a kid. They would tell me that something like that doesn’t line up doesn’t make sense. Yeah. Yeah. So I really.

Mary Helen 57:07
And so I asked this question. It’s very simple to put it this way. If a man steals a million dollars, or he steals another man’s wife, or he steals a nickel. Which theft is the one that we judge him on? Which one is is the more Oh, that’s more serious. Oh, well, we can overlook the nickel because we placed little value on that nickel, right? It’s all about the intention, y’all. If the intention to steal is to steal, it’s stealing, right? Yeah. But we are also placed here, by our own hand, to have that human experience and a loving creator that would place us here and give us all of these wonderful things to experience through five senses only, is not gonna throw us into the fires of hell, because guess what, there aren’t any, that is a man made concept. And so it’s a way of punishment, you know, we, we love this duality that we live in. And that’s the way Earth is set up. It’s the darkness and the light simultaneously. Therefore, our religions are created around those same circumstances, that duality. There has to be a good and an evil, there has to be a dark and a light. Well, you know, I don’t know about you. But I’ve never looked at a piece of art that only had light colors. Right? You know, I’ve never looked at one that was only dark colors and pure black. You have to have the darkness and the light to create the beautiful masterpiece you have to Yeah, and so if by physics, by science, by religious, it doesn’t matter what way you’re judging this criteria, you are not going to be condemned to a life in eternal hell, by the very creator, that puts you here to experience the dichotomy of dark and light simultaneously not happening.

Brian Smith 58:51
Yeah, I love that. And I was, there’s a quote that you have it says we didn’t come for perfection. We came from perfection. And I love that. So why are we here? Why do we come here?

Mary Helen 59:02
And this is so interesting, because some people are like, I would never choose, you know, I wouldn’t choose for my husband to cheat on me or I didn’t choose cancer. I didn’t. Yes, you did. And I know that’s really hard to digest. But Yes, you did. You came here. And you were so confident in how dynamic you would be that you set up a set of circumstances for you to experience here for you to grow through. And when you get here, yeah, you’ve forgotten and Yeah, you’ve disconnected from your own divinity. And you’re trying to work your way through it. And you’re like, I’d have never done that to myself. Yes, you would have, do you know, it’s like ask anybody who goes to the gym and they punish their body and they’re pumping iron and they’re doing this and they’re so sore when they get out and then they get to look in the mirror and they’re like, Oh, sweet, you know, because you want to put yourself through that in order to experience what’s on the other side. And so you know, for for people, I always compare it to our Like, all of us have been locked up for a while now we’re inside, we’re in a pandemic. You know, if you’re watching Netflix, you’re either watching it on your TV or on a laptop, there are some of us who absolutely love to go to the cinema. You know. And so if you’re in the comfort of your own home, you haven’t had to change your pajamas in three weeks, and you’re, you know, you’re eating your food out of the fridge and your, you know, you can pause that thing if you got to go to the bathroom, and you’re like, it’s your setup, man, you’re, you’re enjoying all this downtime, and it’s great. And usually you’re running 90, and you’re, you know, you can’t watch a movie and oh, my God, this is fabulous. I could get used to this. And then the pandemic lifts, and somebody calls you in what goes, guess what that new Marvel movie is out? Oh, huge fan. And you go in and you walk into the door of the cinema for the first time in a year. And you are smacked in the face with the smell of that buttery popcorn, and you walk up. And that’s the only time I ever allow myself a coke on ice. And so I get my Coca Cola and ice and I get my buttery popcorn, and I go in to a screen that is 500 times larger than my TV screen at home. And I am sitting in with other human beings. And there is stuff going on there. And we are laughing together. We are crying together. We’re hiding it. You know, we’re eating that popcorn, and then we get out of the movie. We’re talking about it. Now which experience is better? That one, or the one where we are in the comfort of our own home? Neither one is better than the other? They’re two different experiences. Right? Yeah. So why would somebody choose to come here? Because when we step out of perfection, we get to jump in here. We get to play. And we get to grow through these limited circumstances, through these illusions that we create for ourselves, as we rediscover that we already are that which we seek. And there’s the big reveal.

Brian Smith 1:01:49
Well, I, I’ve heard that I’ve never heard it put quite that way. And I really appreciate that. And it because I love what you said, you know, which is better. And because we think while we’re here, I just can’t wait. And I’ve said this, I say it every day. I can’t wait to get back home. And I can’t wait to get out of this place. Because it’s so hard here. And I love

Mary Helen 1:02:11
that been there and I’m I’m not homesick. Yeah, because I realized that we’ve got such a limited time here. Dude, I’m using it up, I am going to be skating into the grave eating the chocolate covered strawberries with a glass of champagne board.

Brian Smith 1:02:25
Yeah, exactly. And that’s the thing. You know, I think when we’re here, and that’s this is key for me is remembering that this is a short time this is temporary. And when I can remember that, then I’m okay. But it’s when we’re here we’re like, Man, this is this is forever. This is my whole life. You know, I’ve heard people say, when we have someone transition, I’m never going to see them again. And when I’m working with people, I’m like, I that breaks my heart when I hear someone say that, because you will see them again. It’s like they it looks like they went off to college, or they went on vacation. You know, when when our when our loved ones go on vacation, we don’t say I’m never going to see them again. We say I’m going to see them in a couple of weeks or someone moves even across the world, you know, we’ll see them at vacation time, you know.

Mary Helen 1:03:06
So we need to have a conversation, Brian with my girls this morning. Because their dad left when they were very young. They were one in three when their dad left now, he’s still in a physical body, but he lives in New Zealand on the other side of the world from us. And so they don’t ever see him. And so I was explaining this concept to them going your father to you is a 2d iconic graph that you see on a video screen. Right? It doesn’t mean that he’s not your father. And it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t love you. But it means that the way that you’re interacting with him is not in the physical. Do you still feel his presence? Yeah. And I was like, that’s exactly what it’s like when someone walks out of this life into another. And they were like, Oh, okay. And I said, do you stop loving dad when the phone is off? And you can’t see him on the phone? No. Does dad stop loving you? Is that presidents broken? No. And they were like, Oh my gosh, I get it. I get it, you know? And so why would you want to leave now? Because your daughter is in a different room and deny the rest of us the gift of you?

Brian Smith 1:04:13
Yeah, well that’s that’s a good point. And and that’s, that’s this is the thing about being human. This is why I do what I do. This is why I talk to people like you because we have to keep reminding ourselves, you know, and want to hear you talk about you know, your divinity. And again, I think about my own upbringing, you know, and when we say we’re divine, that’s blasphemy, where we you know, where I came from Anyway, you know that that’s what they put Jesus to death for, for you know, for saying that he was divine. So we have to overcome that programming, the people that I work with, and even with myself, I’m always trying to overcome that programming that I am just not

Mary Helen 1:04:47
remember. Probably a lot of the people you’re dealing with are buffet Christians. They pick and choose what suits them because did the man himself not say no, you’re not? That ye are gods? Absolutely. Absolutely. You can’t you don’t get to take that away because it’s not convenient. Right? He said it. He meant it. He has left clues left, right and center all the way through that you are divine. Hmm.

Brian Smith 1:05:13
Yeah. That’s Well, you’re absolutely right. We we are we are both like Christians. I’m not I don’t call myself a Christian anymore. But there is so much beautiful stuff in the Bible. If we look and we look at what Jesus actually said, and we look at the Bible actually says, and, you know, so many people, you get you, you growing up talking to the dead, you know, oh, that’s the devil. You know, she’s she’s being deceived. You know, there’s that that’s a demon disguised as a grandfather, you know, and oh, Lord, I’ve

Mary Helen 1:05:40
heard that one so many times. Yeah. But you know, well, that’s an awfully nice demon who’s spending his time helping everybody else? Exactly. Exactly.

Brian Smith 1:05:48
And then again, going back to the Bible says you can know a tree by its fruit. So when people tell me mediums are evil, I’m like, Well, what are they doing? are they bringing peace and joy and love and comfort? Are they are they lifting people’s lives? Or are they making people’s lives worse?

Unknown Speaker 1:06:05

Brian Smith 1:06:06
yeah. So um, I really, I really enjoyed spending this time with you. I mean, I knew it would be like this from just you know, watching your videos and stuff. And you’re just you’re just so refreshing to talk to. I want to tell people they can reach you at Mary Helen Hensley calm. It’s Mary Helen HSLE. Why? Mary Helen has several books, the promise by Heaven trilogy, which is kind of like your memoir, I guess. The chakra fair is the pocket coach. Bringing death to life understanding is a new healing. I want to definitely check that one out. And you and the managers, you’ve written a couple of children’s books in addition to books for for Yes.

Mary Helen 1:06:44
And let me tell you what’s coming out this week. I have the first book. So it’s understanding is the new healing the first book in Amazon audible history. To be back. You mentioned this in the opening. Yeah, backed by the healing frequencies and altered brainwave states. So I’m taking people out of the audible acoustic experience and immersing them into that story. I’m changing dimensions on him. So we’re going from a 3d into a five to the experience where someone is listening and feeling the story simultaneously via frequency.

Brian Smith 1:07:17
Wow, that sounds awesome. That sounds really, really good. Yeah, so that’s coming out this week on Amazon on Audible. Yeah. All right. Keep your eyes open. Definitely want to get that. Well, Mary Helen, again, thank you very much for being here. Thank you for being so tenacious to get this done. We got the connection going. We got the video.

Mary Helen 1:07:38
Here’s me sitting in the car on the side of the road.

Brian Smith 1:07:42
Yeah, this isn’t

Mary Helen 1:07:43
going to happen.

Brian Smith 1:07:45
Yeah. Yeah. Great. Absolutely. Well, you have a great rest of your day. And thank you

Mary Helen 1:07:50
so much. And thank you for everything that you do. Thanks. I couldn’t do what I do without the likes of you.

Brian Smith 1:07:56
Yeah. That’s it for another episode of grief to growth. I sure hope you got something out of it. Please stay in contact with me by reaching out at www grief to growth.com. That’s grief, the number two growth com or you can text the word growth to 31996. That’s simply text growth gr o w th 231996. So if you’re watching this on YouTube, please make sure you subscribe. So hit the subscribe button. And then hit the little bell here. And it’ll notify you when I have new content. Always please share the information if you enjoy it. That helps me to get more views and to get the message out to more people. Thanks a lot and have a wonderful day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Grab some popcorn and get ready to be entertained. Lionel Friedberg is a man who has lived a full and adventurous life. We could hardly do it justice in this short format. But, we took a good shot at it.

Lionel was born in South Africa. As a white boy growing up during apartheid, at an early age, he was introduced to African shamanism and it made a lifelong impression on him.

As a young man, a Black friend took Lionel to see a sangoma, a medicine woman. This woman told Lionel about what awaited him in life decades in the future. Today, nearly 60 years later her prophecies are still coming true.

Lionel’s adventures would take him around the world and back to South Africa to seek healing for the illness she would come to him.

In this interview, we discuss his adventures and what he has learned about the nature of reality including how our ancestors are parts of our lives, shamanic prophecy, energy healing, exorcism, near-death experiences, even UFOs.

Lionel’s book is available at:







Brian Smith 0:00
Close your eyes and imagine what if the things in life to cause us the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we’ve been buried. But what if, like a seed had been planted, and having been planted, who grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is brief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. Hey, everybody, I want to do a real quick introduction to this episode with Lionel Friedman. Lionel has lived a long and adventurous life. So we do talk quite a bit about details of his life in the beginning of the episode. And towards the end, we get more into general topics. So I do encourage you to stick around for the entire episode. It’s really good. It’s all fascinating. He’s lived an amazing life. The book is incredible. If you like movies, if you like adventures, and I do recommend you get the book. But stick around for the interview. And as I said, if you can stay till the end, have a great one. Hey, everybody, this is Brian and back with another episode of grief to growth and today I’ve got with me Lionel freedberg. Lionel has written a fascinating book about about his life. And we’re going to discuss his book today. I’m going to read his bio and then we’re gonna go ahead and cover have a conversation. Lionel is an award winning Emmy Award winning producer in New York Times bestselling author. He spent 50 years making films as diverse as full length theater, theatrical features and television documentaries. And he grew up in South Africa during the during the apartheid era era. And he began his career during the dying days of colonialism in Central Africa, and Lionel eventually settled in Los Angeles where his work took him to the sound stages of Hollywood and to the most remote regions of the earth. In his career expose them to extraordinary wonders of our planet. They brought him into close contact with many unforgettable personalities which he outlines in his books, from Maverick scientists to politicians, entertainers, and to people who survived near death experiences. Now, the reason I want to talk to Lionel day is his observations have taught him that life is far more complex and infinitely stranger than we can imagine. He was struck by a life unexpected life threatening illness. And in his efforts to find a way to save his life. They took him back to Africa, where he encountered the age old rituals and powerful healing methods of a lot of African shamans and their mysterious ways have much to teach us Lionel believes and are as relevant today as they were in ancient times. So with that, I want to welcome Lionel freeburg. And mine I should have asked you before we started my pronounce your name correctly.

Lionel Friedberg 2:59
Yeah, you gotta spit on Lionel freedberg is exactly right. Thank you.

Brian Smith 3:03
Why don’t I really, it’s great to have you here today. And I’m really looking forward to your interview. And I was telling you before I get started, there’s so much in your book and so much about your life. I’m not sure how much we can get through. But well, we’ll do our best. So if you could just briefly tell me like you’re you’re raised in South Africa. And tell me about you know, a little bit about your background.

Lionel Friedberg 3:25
Yeah, I regard myself as and I don’t mean to sound boastful or arrogant about this in any way at all. But I think I’ve been extraordinarily fortunate. I’ve been blessed with an amazingly fascinating life. And it began, you know, I was an only child living in South Africa. I was born in the just after the after the Second World War, I’m now 76 years old. And so I grew up there, went to school there and grew up in the midst of that apartheid system, that divisive iniquitous system. That was really very difficult. Even as a child it was, it was obvious to me that there was something grossly wrong with the way we were living our lives. We were privileged white society. We all had black servants in our homes. And the twain never met between white and black society. And it was very clear to me that this wasn’t right. We all had sevens in our homes. And you know, I had a nanny as well. And why I say that is because very, very early on in my in my childhood, I must have been about five or six years old. My I had a wonderful nanny. And one day she had a day off. And because I was an only child, she said to me, I’m going to see a friend this afternoon. You want to come with me? So I said sure. Absolutely. And so we went down the road in this little town where we were living place called Kempton Park, which is to the east of Johannesburg, with a big international airport is now Oliver Tambo International Airport and Named after one of the heroes of the of the struggle in the in the apartheid system, and, and we went down down the road to see to see her friend who was also a black woman working in a white household. And these people had tiny little facilities in the in the backyards of these of these houses a little tiny, miniscule room, a little cold shower and a toilet. And that was it. That was the all of these people had. Our seven had that and so did this, this other woman that we were going to visit her friend, you know, and I was, I was she always used to sing lullabies to me, and you know, she used to tell me stories, basically, based on on tribal lore, and I found that all very fascinating, and I love this woman. And she said, Come and visit my friends. So of course, I was very keen to do that. And we went down the road. And when we got to this little room at the back of this yard where her friend lived, they were like, maybe two or three other people standing outside the door waiting to see her. And, you know, so my nanny said to me, uh, you know, she’s obviously she’s seeing, she’s seeing some people. So I said, Why can’t we go in? And she said, No, no, no, no, she’s, she’s, she’s being she’s being a doctor. She’s just being a doctor. You know, what did I understand? It’s six years, right? This is a woman who polished the floors, clean them, you know, cleaned the kitchen, cook the food, how can she be a doctor? And she says, Yeah, she’s being a doctor. So I thought, What do you mean? And she said, Well, when we go inside a room shall show you. And sure enough, when after these two people had been inside the room and came out it’ll carry little sexuals something inside it, I didn’t know what they were, we went in there. And in this little room, which was very Spartan, there was a bed of course and a little little stove which you could cook off with Primus stove, you know, use parafin it had one electric naked electric light bulb in the roof. And often these lights didn’t even work I mean, these people often use candles. It was it was it was an unbelievable period of time. But anyway, on in her room where all these shows and on the shelves are little containers, little bottles and jars and stuff and there was all sorts of strange things inside there that I did not recognize obviously herbs sands, you know grains of stuff, little feathers, a couple of animal skins and whatever else and I I was intrigued by all of this. So my nanny said to her, tell him what you do here you know when you’re not working inside when you when you have your day off, what do you do get tell tell him and so she explained to me she said well, I have learnt in my tribe when I grew up there how to become a sangoma The first time I ever heard the word sangoma. sangoma is the word. It’s a Zulu word originally, but it’s now used by all the tribes By the way, there are 11 languages and different tribal groups in South Africa. But they all all the shamans go by the name of sangoma, that’s the sort of, you know,

generic name for these folks. And she explained to me that what she did was she could help heal people. And the way she did that was to read the bones. And I said, What do you mean, read the bones, and she had a little grass match in the middle of her room on the concrete floor. And on this grass mat was a little animal skin bag. And she took it, she shook it like this, and it was you know, clinking sound inside, and she said, inside, here are my bones. And I said, Show me and she said, Sure, and she turned the bag upside down. And what fell out were a bunch of various bones, a few stones, pebbles, and other trinkets in there. These were the tools the medium by which she could speak to her ancestors. Now one thing we have to realize about the healing paradigm, in the African tradition is very much centered on contact with the ancestors, the ancestral spirits, the ancestors are the ones who will guide teach, diagnose prognose see into the future, and also do all sorts of other amazing things with with the sangoma. So the sangoma looks at the bones and they come from various animals, some of them have to come from certain animals, like a goat Hina, a lion, crocodile even as little leaving the crocodile tooth, in the end and all of these sets of bones of all the shamans, all the sangomas that I’ve ever met, they all have these specific objects, but then they can all add their own little individual bits and pieces to it, as in when they feel fit. Whatever speaks to them, or allows them to contact their ancestral spirits is what they use in these bones. And the way the bones fall on this little grass mat, apparently is, is influenced by the ancestors. Instead of the way these bones for upside down left to right, whatever else, one on top of the other means something very specific. And these people can read that. So she was trying to explain all this to me. I mean, I was lost. It sounded like a like a high adventure to me was fantastic. And I thought, wow, not the whites, of course went cold. These people I knew that they existed, they would call them witch doctors, which was a derogatory term, right? And totally incorrect because there’s nothing to do with witches about this. But you know, they were all weird by the term of witch doctor, but they really they were sangomas, they were herbalist. They were diviners, they were clairvoyance, they could do all kinds of things. And the other thing that they did, and they did it remarkably well, because I’ve even had experience of this myself, which we can get to in a moment. And that is that they knew I don’t know how to go into the natural world, and pick leaves, and, you know, herbs and whatever else from the environment, in order to make medications to help people heal. And so that’s what all these little bottles and jars and powders were for. And that’s what these people obviously were carrying out when I was waiting outside her room. And so I found was really intriguing. Anyway, you know, my friends spend a lot of time they will yakking away in the language that I didn’t understand. None of us white kids were taught any black languages at all, we learn two languages with English and Afrikaans. And everyone had to learn those two languages, including all the black folk. But did we learn any black languages? No, absolutely not, not back in those days, not during the apartheid era, things are different enough. It’s all a very different country today. But anyway, you know, so I, I paint that picture because that was my first introduction into the healing paradigm of Africa, which I now have had extensive experience of, and it has been an extraordinary journey for me. I think that I have learned more from those folks than I have from anyone else. And believe me, I don’t want to sound boastful again, I’ve made movies with a ton of different people all over the world, from universities to you know, you name it, I’ve worked with NASA, I’ve been, you know, all sorts of exciting places. But I’ve learned more from some of the people who live in mud huts in the middle of nowhere, who don’t even speak English, about how one can develop a relationship with the natural world, how you can tune into the higher realm of, of thinking, raising one’s consciousness, and learning a lot about life and healing yourself. Through folks like that. It has been amazing. Now, let me just jump forward ahead a little bit, comes the year 1960. I finished my education, I’m done with school, high school is done, everything is finished. My father who was originally immigrant from Latvia, he married a South African woman and I wasn’t their only child. My father decided to leave the country because apartheid was really very, very, he founded an immortal system could not live with it. And you know, he’d seen life elsewhere in the world. He was originally from Europe. And he said to my mother, you know, I think it’s time we get out of here. This is just not the way otherwise we shouldn’t bring up a kid in a situation like this.

And so he took a job at a store, by trade, he was a watchmaker, which he learned in Europe, in Latvia, you know, tinkering. In the days when watches had coiled springs and little neck mechanical parts, you know, I have a watch like that, in tribute to my dad, I don’t wear an electronic watch. You got to either wind it up, you know, or our I don’t use it, watch anyway. So that’s what my dad did. And he took a job and a small store where he could be a watchmaker in what was then known as I’m sorry about the fire brigade in the background, but anyway, in an area that was known as Northern Rhodesia, now, Northern Rhodesia was basically two countries north of where we were, a country directly above us was north of South Africa was at that time called Southern Rhodesia, named after Cecil Rhodes, one of the Great British Empire builders, you know, land grabbers in a world, although his legacy did spawn the Rhodes scholarships, a year and a half to give the guy credit. Yeah, the red scholarship is named after him because the guy made a fortune out of gold and diamonds, you know. And so Southern Rhodesia was was one territory. It was British, a British colony, and to the north of that was Northern Rhodesia. And that’s where my dad got this job in this little tiny mining town where they mined copper. Copper had was was was in a very big commodity those days and you know, fetch the big price. It’s not so much today, but those days couple was a was a really important commodity using all kinds of stuff, particularly after the war. They used it and all sorts of you know, machines and war machines and whatever else So it was a very, very wealthy area, way up in the northern part of Northern Rhodesia, right on the border of the Belgian Congo, today, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, but those days, it was still the Belgian Congo. And that was the that Belgian gave Congo independence. And it was the beginning of a war that has never ended, ever since that had that event happened. You know, there was complete chaos, after the Belgians just, you know, through the Congo away, without having really prepared anybody for independence. And of course, there was a lot of the Congo became a pawn in the Cold War, because the Congo was, was and still is, to this day, extremely rich and raw materials. The uranium that was used in the bonds that were dropped on Nagasaki, and Hiroshima, actually came from the Congo. And I know folks know that I mean, that’s the Congo has every kind of natural wealth that you can, you can imagine, comes out of the ground in the Congo. So it became a porn between East and West. And both sides were playing against one another within the Congo and this inflame this war that began in the Congo. And it was at that time that my dad decides to go north, to live in the country directly on the border of this country that’s in chaos. But it was okay because Northern Rhodesia was peaceful and quiet because it was the British territory. And so he went up there, and I have to just say this to to to your viewers. Because it’s an important commodity in my story, my always love the movies, I praise and think my mom, to the end of my days, for having dragged me to every film that she ever went to see ever since I was like four years old, because I love the movies. And so my passion, right from the get go, was I wanted to eventually get to Hollywood, and make Hollywood movies as a kid. So when I was 11, a cousin of mine gave me an old used movie camera. Now these were long before the days of video, of course, we’re using we’re talking about film now. We’re gonna eight millimeter film. So he gave me that. And as a kid, you know, from 11 years old onwards, I was making films for my school, sporting events, birthday parties, stuff like that, you know. And I even made an epic called the glory of the garden, because my mother was an avid gardener. And I use, you know, hollywood music in the movie and all kinds of stuff. So I love the movies. And what I really wanted to do some of my favorite films of those days, were all the Tarzan movies, the adventure films, the African Queen, King Solomon’s minds, all those wonderful stories about Africa, you know,

because Africa is a place of unbelievable adventure, you know, the horizons are endless. There is so much, especially those days that were that were not known about the continent. It was a place of mystery, and Mystique, and, you know, adventure. Wow, said, My folks are gonna live in an area like that. I’m gonna take my camera, I ain’t gonna go to university, which my parents said, that’s what you should do gonna get a life. I said, No, I’m coming with you. I’m getting up to Northern Rhodesia with you guys. Because I want to make movies up there. I mean, not having a clue how I was going to do that. But that was my vision. So anyway, I went out when we got up there. I was, I was horrified because all they was was a copper mine and account. And the bush from horizon to horizon was just, you know, thick Bush, and nothing else. And I thought, What have I done, you know, what am I going to do here? And there were a string of these little copper mines. And there was a local newspaper. And after a couple of months, I looked in the newspaper one day, and there was a little tiny ad in the newspaper, which announced we’re looking for staff for a new television station that was being built in one of these towns. For me, it was like, heaven had heard my prayers. I thought, Oh, my, I got to get a job at this place. And I went and had an interview. That of course, they weren’t looking for, you know, super technicians and producers. All those folks were being brought in from Europe and from the UK. But they were looking for local people like drivers and people to work menial jobs in the station. Right? And I said, I will pay you guys I don’t care what job it is, but I got to work here. So they gave me a job and I started working before they even went on the air. I helped them you know, piece the whole place together, put it all together. And here was this tiny station, which eventually went on the air. I can never forget the date because it was like the beginning of my life. The 15th of December 1961 we went on the air And it was an amazing experience for me because for the next three years what we did was this. In the mornings, we would do educational broadcasts for local vernacular. speaking people, local tribes, in the vernacular languages, the main language in Zambia, in that part of the country is Bemba. And in the afternoons we would do a, what they would call cultural programming for for adults, people who are living in the bush uniform for the various tribal communities. So we would have these groups of people arriving in the afternoon in their tribal regalia and drums and skirts and musical instruments, and they would dance and play music. And it was like being in another world. It was amazing. And then and then at night, we’d have Leave it to Beaver, and Bonanza. And everything that you guys were seeing here in the States, so I was living in this dual world. Yeah, it was incredible. Yeah, anyway, To cut a long story short, when Northern Rhodesia was given its independence by Britain, which was happening at that time, Britain was giving up all its colonies, it was the end of the colonial period. And I discussed that whole episode in some detail in my book as to you know, what that really meant and how it was.

But one day, I was the oldest all the staff at the station, of course, needless to say, we’re white. But one day, after we had become independent, the country became independent, and became the Republic of Zambia, under a black government. We guys at the station all got a pink slip to say that the station has been nationalized by by the government, and you have all done a wonderful job, thank you very much. But in six months, time, bye bye. Out of here, your jobs are going to be taken over by local people. None of us argued with that idea, because it made perfect sense. The country was not independent. It had a right to run itself. And it had it we fully understood why they wanted to stuff this place with local black people, Zambians. But the big problem was, what was that? What was I going to do with my life? You know, where would I go now? The others could go back to Europe and wherever else they came from, you know, but what was I going to do? My dream was to get to Hollywood. Now, how do you do that? When you’re living in the middle of Africa? And you know, you haven’t really got a background? How is how what am I gonna do with my with my life. And so we had a guy working for us, a wonderful black guy who wasn’t much older than me. His name was David fury. He was also a member of the bimber ethnic group. And the next morning, I after I and I got back from the station late that night with his little sister, telling me Thanks very much, but you know, you gotta leave in six months. The next morning, I said to him, and he and I were really good buddies. He loved photography. We gave him a camera for Christmas one year. And, you know, we used he used to spend his time talking to me about photography all the time. Eventually, he wanted to open his own photographic studio. So he and I had a lot in common. And I said, David, you know, I don’t know what to do. Because I’ve been fired. I’ve been basically told to leave the station. Oh, no, no, he said, Why? And I said, well, because my job is going to be taken over by one of you guys, and what but what am I going to do with my life? And he said, Oh, and he thought about this. And he said, you want to go back to South Africa, I did not want to get back to South Africa. Even though there was a thriving film industry in South Africa, I didn’t want to go back to that whole apartheid. And this we talking about 1964 65. Now, I didn’t want to do that. And I said, I don’t know what to do. And he said, Well, I will try and find someone who may be able to help you. I said, like what, you know, like, who is who’s gonna tell me what to do, you know? And he said, just stick it out, find someone. The next day came back and he said, okay, on Thursday, or whatever day it was, we’re going to drive into the bush. And I’m going to introduce you to somebody, and that person will tell you about your future. And I, I gave, I trusted the guy implicitly I said, Okay, whatever you say, David, whatever you say, I’ll do exactly what it’s so. So the day came and they were going along in my little secondhand VW Beetle, driving along this dirt road on the outskirts of a town called and Dola. To this little settlement, little sort of tribal settlement about maybe a few miles in the bush, and on the edge of the settlement was one single house, little tiny house all on its own. And David said, I think that’s the place there. Let’s go there. So we went there, and he knocked on the door. And this little old lady came to the door. It was a hot day as it always is in that part of the world. But she was covered up she had like a trench coat on and up and you know, a rug around her shoulders. She, she was like half blind, she was old, wrinkled, and old and very, very short.

One of the things about her that that that struck me festivals is that she was an OBE No, you know, sometimes there’s a skin pigment problem, and the skin doesn’t go entirely black. And it’s kind of more white than black. Sometimes people like that regarded as freaks in the sort of, you know, not like by the tribe, but she was highly respected, because they said that she had special powers. She was chosen because of her power. And that was the sign of her powers. Well, we went inside her little house, and she brought us into this little room. And the minute I walked into that room, there was some kind of resonance about my childhood because the smells and the things that I saw in that room reminded me of my childhood, the day I went into my nanny’s friend’s room, in that count, way, way back, because there was a grass mat on the floor, there was a little egg sitting on that grass mat. And there were shelves with little bottles and containers of all sorts of weird things that I didn’t recognize on the shelf. So I knew Ah, she does what that woman did, way, way back. This is going to be very interesting. So a long, kind of long story short, she spoke no English, but thank goodness for David, he translated everything for me. She made us sit down, she said, blow into the bag, which I did, and say your name, which I did. And then she took some snuff, which is ground up tobacco powder, you know, tobacco leaves, and she put it in there, that’s an offering to the spirits. She shook the bag like this. And then she turned it upside down. And all of these bones and stones and little things fell on the grass mat. And she leaned over it like this, and she looked and suddenly she went like this. She said, I can’t see anything. It’s too bright. You know, I can shock and I thought, Oh, my God, you know what’s happened? And she says to David, she said, Why? Why am I why are all these bright lights shining at me? What What am I looking at? She didn’t understand what she was seeing. But she was seeing lights, obviously another attendee, this woman was half blind, her eyes was like, you know, ancient. And yet, you could see that she was struggling to see because of some kind of whatever it was, that she was seeing in the bones. And David said, she wants to know what these big bright lights are that that she’s seeing. And it struck me Oh, my god, she’s seeing the lights in the studio, where I worked. Yeah. And the minute I heard that I thought, This woman is for real. You better pay attention to what she has to tell you. And she for the next hour or so she just sat there picking up these bones. And she didn’t stop speaking for a second. It just kept flowing out of her. And David was translating for me. And I was trying my best to keep pace, making notes. He was trying to keep pace with her. She told me so many things. And every single thing that this old woman told me that day, 60 years ago, all came true. There were moments, there were highlights in my life that actually blew blew me away when that happened, because I only recognized when they came to pass that she foretold all that stuff. Yeah, I just I describe all this in the book. Yes.

I mean, let me give one example for your viewers. Sure. Like for example, she says, he’s not going to stay here. He is going to cross the big water. Now. She didn’t know what she was saying, because Zambia, remember, is a landlocked country. This little lady probably had never in her life, and seen the ocean, you know, maybe in the nearby river, and never been more than 10 miles away from her village. But she said he will cross the big ocean in the left direction and she’s pointing to the north. And when he goes there, there will be more lights. And they will be very famous people, and then he will do his work. Now, I had no idea what any of this meant. Yes, until I emigrated. I eventually left Zambia went back to South Africa worked in the film industry. And I immigrated to Canada because you couldn’t get a visa to come to the USA those days because of the anti apartheid policies they wouldn’t give us gifts are there for white South Africans visas. In those days, it was really difficult to immigrate, but I could go to Canada and that for me was good enough because that was like my you know the road to Hollywood if you like. And so those days you didn’t travel by air you went by sea I’m talking about 1966 and so on the voyage going to Europe on the ship one night I was standing up on the deck all on my own. And I used to look back south every night because in the southern hemisphere is a is a is the Southern Cross or is as almost as conspicuous in the sky like the Big Dipper is here in the Northern Hemisphere. It defines the southern sky and I would look at the Southern Cross every night getting low. And lower and lower and lower on the horizon. Because we were moving north, right. And halfway along this voyage took 13 days to get to Europe from South Africa, I suddenly realized she foresaw this. Yeah, I am crossing the big water, and I am going north. That’s what I’m doing. I’m sailing across the Atlantic, and I’m going from one hemisphere of the planet to the other. That old woman had foreseen this. Another thing that she told, she told me, she said, lots of things. But you know, he has another example. She told me, she said, One day, he will go to a world where there is only white, there is no color in this world at all except white. And he will be there. And he will do work there. And I thought, you know, what’s that mean? Yeah, well, comes 1991. I’m on a scientific expedition, making a film for PBS. And I’m going to Antarctica, and now we’re doing some research work in the ice, basically, to do some to find out is global warming really happening? Is the ozone hole getting bigger or getting smaller? Is the environment in the Arctic being affected by co2 in the atmosphere and methane, and is the sea getting more acidic, all that kind of stuff. So doing all this often icebreaker research ship, and it’s 1991 Christmas Eve, the captain stops the ship with dead still. Thus, the sea is covered in pack ice. And you know, everybody’s partying on board the ship and I went up on the deck was cold, I was gonna go cuddled up at writing in my diaries, I kept copious notes of everything in my life. And I’m sitting there sitting up there on the deck. And it’s like midnight, and it’s not dark, because it’s the southern hemisphere. And we so far south that the sun never set in a perpetual daylight. And I looked around and I thought, wow, this is like being in a big translucent egg because the sea was white, the ice was everywhere. The sky was white, you couldn’t even see where the horizon in the sky. It, you know, met. And I suddenly realized, Oh, my God, this is what that woman had seen. I’m in a world where there is only what, there is no color here. And I’m doing work here. You know, I was I was making a movie, she first saw that on and on and on. There was so many incidents like that. Then this incredible old woman had foreseen in her bones in a little hacked in Central Africa all those years ago. And now, you know, when this when this event happened, it’s like, nearly three decades after she foresaw it. Yeah,

you know, it was incredible.

Announcer 32:46
We’ll get back to grief to growth in just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian is an author and a life coach. If you’re grieving or know someone who is grieving his book, grief to growth is a best selling easy to read book that might help you or someone you know, people work with Brian as a life coach to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers at WWW dot grief to growth.com www dot g ri e f, the number two, gr o w th calm or text growth gr o w th 231996. If you’d like to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com. Slash grief to growth www.pa t ar e yo n.com slash g ri e f, the number two gr o w th to make a financial contribution. And now back to grief to growth. Yeah, you

Brian Smith 33:47
know, the thing is, is I was reading your book and one of the things you said that when you were talking about you said I kept copious notes, because I was like, I wonder how you got so much detail on the book. Because the book, we feel like I felt like I was going on the adventures with you. So you did a really good job of bringing us along and helping us to understand. And as you tell that story, I want to make sure that people understand that from the time that she gave you these predictions, until some of them came true was like 30 years or

Lionel Friedberg 34:15
more. Yeah, even more. I mean, this this was like this was over 50 years ago, nearly 60 years ago, she told me that. And it’s still happening even now. It was like, for example, one of the things you said was one day, he’s going to get very, very sick. The only way that he’s going to find any healing is to go to the place where he came from. I didn’t know what that meant. And it turns out that, you know, just a few years ago, I was diagnosed with a serious kidney condition. This is, in fact, in 1996 I think it was and you know, my nephrologist said to me, I had a biopsy and he said you know your kidneys are failing. You’re you have an autoimmune disorder that he said Serious, both of your kidneys are being attacked by your immune system and your kidneys are going to fail. You either going to be on dialysis within 10 years or you’re going to be dead, one of the two. And when I heard that I thought, maybe this is what that woman had for foretold, because she told me I was going to get very, very sick. But here’s the amazing thing. I have a friend who’s a surgeon is a white guy like me, and he’s the same age as me. And he studied at Stanford University, he originally studied in Johannesburg. And then he went to Stanford and he became a general surgeon there he practices now in Santa Barbara. And his big thing is studying the shamanic methods of back in South Africa, which is where he came from. Because there’s been so much so much proof of healing that has taken place from those traditional healers, particularly the medicine that they dispense to people, you know, doesn’t come from big, you know, a major pharmaceutical Big Pharma, and stuff that they pick from trees and leaves and grass in the bush, and people get healed. So my friend of mine, the surgeon, he wanted to study the methods and become, if you like, even ordained in the capability of being able to do that. So what he did was he found himself a teacher, back in Africa to do that. And this guy was living in Swaziland, which is a neighborhood, a neighboring country in South Africa, it sits between South Africa and Mozambique. And he had to teach there who was teaching him the ways of, of the shaman of the sangoma and how they were, you know, find how you how you go into the boondocks, and find healing stuff from herbs and herbs, whatever. And, and, and remember, he’s a general surgeon, and when when I told him about my kidney illness, he said, he said, You know, I’m going back to South Africa, and I’m going back to my teacher to for about six weeks to learn to have another course he used to go back once a year. And he said, Why don’t you come with me? I said, What, four? And he said, because maybe those guys, maybe my teacher, or maybe he knows someone like him, who will be able to help you. And I said, Excuse me, you are a surgeon. And you telling me, I’ve got some of the best specialists in the world, looking after me here in LA, telling me to go back to the bush in Africa with you to find someone who’s going to heal me. Are you serious? And he said, Yes, I absolutely AM. And you know what? I did that. And I met a lot of amazing people. I had met a lot of them before, because in the 70s, I did a series called the tribal identity, which looked at all the tribal groups in South Africa, how they differed one to the other and how their cultures and histories compared different and their traditions and so on. So I had been exposed to a lot of that during the course of the making of that isn’t a graphic series, I had an anthropologist, and we did that series. And I met a lot of sangomas during that. But Dave was serious about me actually trying to find a cure for my kidney disease. And you know what it was, it was predicted by nine by nine nephrologist that I would be on dialysis or be dead by now. And I’ve had this disease for nearly 30 years. And I’m still glad to tell the story. Man, I credit me going back to like that old lady had told me he must go back to where he came from, which means go back to your homeland, which is what I did. And I think I credit that was mainly why I’m still here today. Yeah, those guys.

Brian Smith 38:36
Yeah. And it’s it’s interesting, really fascinating that you know, because this woman tells you, she predicts your future, which is something we don’t understand in the West, right? We, we understand medicine we have we have our pharmaceutical companies, we understand I can give you this pill that can do this. And some some of these healers use herbs, but it’s it’s more than just the herb. It’s the spiritual aspect, right? Because when you did go back to get the healing, you underwent an exorcism, right? I did.

Lionel Friedberg 39:04
Yeah. Because this guy, the teacher of my friend, a wonderful old man, unfortunately, he’s passed away now. I have a great photograph of him in the book. He was he was an incredible individ You know, when when we arrived and he lived in this little art. He lived in this little compound place on the outskirts of a town called Manzini in Swaziland, actually Swaziland today is now called eswatini. The King who’s got like five or six wives he decided to rename it Swaziland was its original British term. He decided to call it after its original term eswatini so but those days when I went back that was still called Swaziland, the language they speak is Swasey, which is closely related to the end goony languages which include Zulu, Zulu and Swasey is an Guney language and so you know that basically those folks understand one another and this old man He, he said to me that when I met him as soon as we met him at his, at his compound was let me just get rid of why have I lost you? Here? I used to be okay. Okay. So the minute he met me, he said, he looked at me and he looked right through me. And he said, Ah, he said, You’re a sick man, aren’t you? He spoke perfect English. And I said, Yes, I am. And he said, tonight, we’ll throw the bones. And that night, you know, we check, we stayed at his place, we stayed in one of these guest huts in his little compound, and he throws his bonus for me. And again, the paradigm is the same. He communicates with these ancestors, the ancestors speak to him. And apparently, it’s not only his ancestors, that that that can be accessed. But my ancestors too, because apparently, according to the African paradigm, it’s my ancestors or the patient’s ancestors that influenced the way the bones fall. And then it’s the the the sangomas ancestors who allow him to interpret the way they have fallen. So he looks at the bones and he says, Oh, yes, he says, you have a very, very serious problem with one of your internal organs. And I think it’s your kidneys, isn’t it? And I said, Yes. He knew that immediately. And he said, you know what I need, you need to see someone a little more powerful than me. You need to see someone that can do a fembot on you. And when you said that, I looked at my friend Dave, and I thought, What is it’s like Indiana Jones, what does that mean? It’s like, you know, on on the front from that movie, you know, I didn’t know what it meant, but it sounded terrifying. And they’ve, they’ve said, No, you listen to the gut, you listen to exactly what he’s saying. You do exactly what he says. And so he, the next day, we go into town, and he introduces me to this short little guy was any like five foot, five foot 10 feet high, very meat mouthed little guy. I’m introduced to him, he spoke no English. And I was told that he was the man who was going to do the gemba. And in other words, he would get rid of the negative energy in my body through this process called fembot. And comes the appointed day, we go to his house, his compound up in the mountains overlooking the wilds of Mozambique, on the other side of the border. And I go to his, we welcome to his compound. He’s not he’s not, he’s nowhere to be seen. And welcomed by two younger guys, I found his sons, and all dressed in western, you know, dress. And I get shown into this large hut where all these women are sitting drumming. They’re all drumming, some of them have got babies on their backs, and they’re all singing and drumming and truly, you know, it was out of a movie straight out of a movie with a fire in the middle of the hut. And I’m told to strip down to my underwear. So I throw my you know, dignity to the wind, I couldn’t care what I you know, this is fine. Hey, why don’t you sit in the nude in the middle of this? Fine by me, whatever, you know. And I do that and I’m stripped down just to my my underwear. And I’m sitting in this in the middle of this height with a fire going. And I’m wondering, so where is this guy? You know, where’s this man who is going to perform the member. And suddenly in the other end of the hat, a door opens and various. The Civil meet guy that I’d met in town had changed, he’d become a completely different entity. He was dressed in his tribal regalia, covered in beads, wearing the skirt. He had these rattles tied around his ankles made from cocoons.

And I have to tell you, it’s straight out of Indiana Jones. And he dropped onto all fours, he dropped down to his knees, hands and feet, and on all fours, he’d become an animal. And he walked across the floor towards me, grunting and the way he walked reminded me very much about here of a hyena. It’s as though he had taken on the spirit of, of a hyena. And he came up to me and he just started to smell me all the way from my feet, all the way up to my, my, my my torso, and when he got to my kidney area, he starts to get he wants to, he wants to get sick. These two guys ran over to him with a barrel and he vomited this ghastly slimy stuff into this barrel. It’s as though he had extracted from my kidneys, some whatever it was metaphysically he taken something from me he taken out the illnesses though he had ingested it and he did so on the other side. My buddy as well. And at the end of this performance, which wait until way after midnight, I felt as though I had been relieved of whatever it was that was causing my illness, I intrinsically and implicitly felt that he had removed that bad energy. Hmm. Go figure, you know. And, you know, so we get back to the place where we stay with, with with with the the guy that we we were with. And he says to me, yeah, you are now clear of that you will be able to survive your illness. And you know, I have, it’s been absolutely amazing. And that was not in using any kind of medication, any sort of herbal, it was purely out of some kind of metaphysical supernatural method that he used, he could tell exactly what was wrong with me and rid my buddy of my illness with the age of the ancestors. Yeah.

Brian Smith 45:59
So it’s, it’s really interesting to me that you as a, as a, as a white man raised in South Africa and that society, and you saw this medicine, but it was, it was kind of taboo, I would assume for white people to take of it. But you are open to that for some reason. 100%

Lionel Friedberg 46:17
I mean, I didn’t die. And I’ll tell you why. Mainly because of this television series that I did in the 70s. When I went to all these tribal groups that I met these folks, there was just too much evidence for me when I saw what they did. There was just too much evidence that whatever they were doing worked, people were being healed, people will make a difference. I actually saw a woman who was exercised have a bad spirit, in a ceremony in an in a particular area during the making of that series. That was absolutely phenomenal. It was like straight out of the exorcist. There’s, this woman was possessed by something and I saw this, this shaman, the sangoma do a ritual with her that she came out of that as though she had been relieved of some possessive spirit. It was absolutely incredible. Now you’re not does this. It’s all sounds kind of like black magic, or Ooga booga stuff. It’s not, it’s real. They have the capability of tapping into another realm that we here in the West have no clue about him. Yeah, oh, we deny it. But these folks know about that. And they respect that. And so I develop a respect for that. So when this all began to happen, I was totally open to being exposed to this because I knew that there was more to it than just, you know, getting just hearsay. I knew that it was it would help me. And, you know, I’m proof. The fact that I’m still here is proof of that.

Brian Smith 47:41
Yeah, the fact that you’re well, the fact that you’re still here, and the fact that you documented that first reading you had in 1964, which I would imagine at that point, there was something she told you that seemed to kind of resonate with you. But I would imagine going forward as these things started to unfold, you were like, oh, wow, this really is happening.

Lionel Friedberg 47:59
Right? I mean, she foretold For example, I was nearly killed. A trampled by Marula by by an elephant in the bush when I was filming. Once in Mozambique, she foresaw that she described the event, she did not know that it was an elephant, but she described the great beast, it will want to kill you, you must be very careful. And there I was making the safari film in in in Mozambique in 1967. And I won’t go into the horrible details, because basically what it was I was doing coverage for a group of three white hunters from from California, on safari in Mozambique, giving wildlife for fun, which made no sense to me. That’s why I took the project. And you know, they shocked an elephant and missed and there was a female elephant who had a baby with her. And she knew that her baby was in danger. And she charged us. And you know, I was routed to the spot. She was actually charging the hunter who had the gun. He ran out of the shot and I was routed to the spot. I was terrified. And she kept coming towards me and I want to tell you, she would have she would have run right into me and trapped me to death. Had she not been shocked by the white hunter behind me, you know. So again, this was another incident that this woman saw in the bones. She didn’t say an elephant but he has an amazing thing. Brian, I have to tell you this. When I every time I had my bones read by a sangoma on all the later occasions. Every single time they threw the bonus for me, the very first thing they would say to me was What is this? What is this UN Global that you’ve got with you? And then global is the Zulu word for elephant. They all said you have this global spirit with you. What is this? And you know what, when that elephant when she died in front of me I filmed her death. And I felt a connection being made between me and that animal when she when she died It’s as though we made this that something happened. Something happened between us. And I’m not making this stuff up. I’m being absolutely. I think the spirit of that elephant has been around me ever since that happened. And this is way back in 1967. Wow, that she’s been around me ever since as a kind of protective spirit. And every time these shamans have read my bones, they have seen the elephant in the bones. They’ve all said, What’s the elephant spirit around you? You know, they’ve seen that, you know?

Brian Smith 50:28
So I want to ask you so you you have this reading in 1964? You’re, you’re a young man, and you’ve seen this unfold over your over your life? Yeah. Do you believe like, our lives planned out? Do you think she she saw or where she just was she was she predicting the future was? I mean, how do you What’s your feeling about that?

Lionel Friedberg 50:48
She was definitely predicting the future she was seeing into the future without even understanding fully what she was saying. Yeah, cuz she didn’t describe precise things. But, you know, the broad, the broad scheme of things all came to came to pass, like the great beast was the elephant. The white world is an article. You know, she didn’t know what that was. But she could see the vision. She could see the events. Yeah, even She even said one one thing, one of the most amazing things she said to David was this guy he will meet one day he will meet a man who knew the most evil person who ever lived in the history of the world. And that’s when I met at of hitless personal pilot, which I write about in the book. And it rises only when that happened that I suddenly realized this guy showed me his photograph albums about, you know, the inner workings of the third rice and all and, and all of those guys who made the Third Reich work, I made a document. The reason was, it was a film about aviation, this guy was a delivery pilot back in the 30s, for an airplane that flew all the way down Africa to South Africa, and eventually became out of his personal pilot. And those two were very, very close throughout throughout the world. And he was even with Hitler in the bunker the night that Hitler decided to take his life. You know, I met this guy, and he shows me his photograph albums. And again, it was like, you know, talk about six degrees of separation, I was one degree of separation, a handshake away from one of the most evil tyrants who ever lived, he was responsible for the death of millions and millions of people. This old lady had foreseen that. Yeah, how does it happen? So in answer to your question, as, as the quantum physicists are not telling us, you know, time is not, is not fixed. There is no yesterday, today and tomorrow. Yeah. And she was a typical example of that. She could foresee events way before that ever happened. So was she able to, to enter this quantum universe, which scientists are now only beginning to understand. And these folks who told her what she knew, and those who came before her, had known about all this stuff, centuries ago, that we’re only beginning to unlock now, with all our sophisticated technology and our science? they’ve known about that for centuries.

Brian Smith 53:15
Yeah, that’s my theory is that mankind at one time, we knew who we were, we understood who we were, we understood that we’re spirit beings, we understood the ancestors and all that stuff. And then we forgot Western Western culture particularly were like, We got so enamored with ourselves and our technology and our and our science. And we said, well, we know everything. Now. You don’t need that stuff anymore. So we’ll just call this witchcraft, dark magic. And, and we’ll write it off. But you know, when the thing in your book, it comes back to over and over again, it’s undeniable, as you read it, there’s, there’s a story you tell about where you’re in, I think it was in South Africa, where you guys were filming, and someone was disrespectful to, to the people there and you’re telling the story.

Lionel Friedberg 54:00
So I’m making this television series in the 70s, about the tribal groups. There is there is a tribe in South Africa called the vendor. Now, they are distinctly different to all the other tribal groups because they are slightly taller, they obviously must have originally have come from Central Africa and migrated to the south and settled in the northern part of what is now South Africa. And they speak a language that is not related to any of the other languages in South Africa like stitute, swana, Zulu, causa, you know, which is the language of Mandela. And so it’s a completely separate language and they are a very, very spiritual people. And they have a lot of amazing traditions and they have a sacred lake in their territory called Lake full duty and when I was doing the series, once every five years, the the members of the tribe of some of the chiefs and and hidden and it’s very much a patriarchal society. Remember, all of these tribal areas are very much a patriot. Local society with the chief and the headman and then you have the gentle puppets underneath it. This is the this is the African way, this is the tribal way. And it still exists very much today. So what what they had was a once every five years, they would go down to the sacred Lake, to pay homage to this, the great spirit that created the tribe, out of respect, it was like, you know, this lake was regarded to be sacred territory, and that the Spirit lived in there, and that their ancestors also hovered around the lake. Because this is this great creative spirit was there as well. And what they did was they poured offerings into the lake, usually homemade beer, which is great stuff, by the way, made from crushed corn that’s fermented. Got an infinite, but boy, it’s as nutritious that can as can be, it’s great. It’s like, it’s like, it’s like good Irish Guinness, you know, when you drink a bottle of Guinness, you drinking a meal. And, and, and this homemade brew is exactly the same. And they offer that to the spirits in the lake. So once every five years, they do that. Fortunately, we were in the timeframe where we could film one of these events. So you know, with lots of events and arrangements, and fixes and whatever else it was arranged that we would get permission to go and photograph the ceremony. And it was all going to be done in tribal regalia. they’d all be dressed in their in their traditional costumes, go down to the lake, there would be drumming, there would be music, and an old old priest of the oldest, the oldest priest in the land in this area, would officiate at the ceremony. And you know, when we met him, we asked him questions through our, through our interpreters. And we asked him questions about what he remembered as a child. And clearly this guy was way over 100 years old. And you know, and they had helped him down to the edge of the lake. And he was sort of hobbling there. But anyway, what he did was, you know, he put his hands up. And some of the other people would pour the, the, these these these offerings, this beer, and other other foodstuffs into the lake. And he was putting his hands up like this. And he was kind of catching up to this great spurt over the lake. Now my anthropologist, who was the host of the series, was in front of me. So here’s me, here’s my host, and in the background is this priest and the lake and all these other events, great shot, you know, it’s just beautifully composed. But we had to take our shoes off, because, you know, it’s holy ground, you take your shoes off in a place like that. So we had to do that. But there were lots of thorns and pebbles and stuff around. And my anthropologist stubbed his toe and was sort of hopping on his leg like this out. And my assistant, one of the assistants on the crew started to giggle. And it was infection, you know what it’s like, when when someone starts to giggle, it spreads like, you know, like wildfire, right? So we’re all starting to giggle and laugh. But the meantime the ceremony is going on, and this old guy is doing his thing. You know, doing he’s, he’s, he’s, he’s, he’s incantations, are to the Great Spirit in the lake. And we laughing we giggling behind the camera back there, which was very disrespectful of us, of course, but we couldn’t help ourselves. And I mean, really, we just couldn’t help ourselves. And he stopped. And he turned around, and he looked at us, he’s he was he’s also was like, half blind. And he just looked in our direction. The military did that. And we’re running film, by the way, we are using film and we are recording our sound on a separate tape tape deck, you know, with microphones and whatever else the minute he turned around and looked at us, because of our behavior. The cameras stopped running. The tape recorder stopped running, every electronic instrument that we had that we were using stopped. just stopped working. Oh,

I said to Peter, who’s my host? I said, Peter, just hold on one second. We got to fix we got a problem here. And I said to the sound man, Jeff, you know, get your voltmeter right. Let’s see if we got power here. So we were running around, trying to check what’s wrong with the circuits of our of our equipment? No, there’s power. There’s power coming out of the batteries. The volt meter is working. But nothing is running. None of the equipment, it’s jammed. And I said to my fixer who is a vendor guy. I said, I don’t know what’s going on here. But that guy, the priest is blocking us from filming this ceremony. He’s asking what has happened and this old piece was staring at us like this unit. Over drumming. It stopped, everything stopped and here we are in panic stations. Nothing’s working. So I fix it goes up to him and talks to him whispers into his ear. And he sort of you know, say something to the to this guy and the guy comes running back to us and says you will not respecting the Sisters, and the ancestors do not want you to film the proceedings. That is why your stuff is your equipment is not working. I said, and I said to my host, and I said to the other crew, please tell apologized profusely on our behalf. We didn’t mean to be disrespectful. Please ask him if he could ask the ancestors to allow us to continue. I see what I can do says the fixie goes back to the priest. Most of his injuries. Yeah, the old priest doesn’t say a word. He turns around, you know, is dressed in his knees, beads and his skins and whatever else. And he just holds his hands up like this. And he starts to chant out to the lake again, at that moment, everything starts working again. The tape recorder starts running, the camera starts working, the curse was lifted, the blockage was lifted, whatever it was, was gone. There is no question that there are powers and forces that we do not understand. And it’s beyond our paradigm to understand that those guys do. He did.

Brian Smith 1:01:12
Yeah, yeah, I really think that it’s kind of a thing that we need to go back to, to respecting more because we all came from that we all we all but we so we kind of forgot about it. And you I mean, there’s so much more because when we talk about extended consciousness, another thing that people are talking about a lot in ours UFOs. And the government nice size government has disclosed a little bit and I think there’s some work stuff coming. We’re going to talk about now that you’ve had some experience with UFOs as well.

Lionel Friedberg 1:01:39
I have I have you know, I think that we probably put a lot of people are saying that this is the year of disclosure. You know, I mean, recently when the US Navy released that footage from the USS Nimitz that that training flight down here in near San Diego, I mean, that was extraordinary footage, it was carried by all the networks, right. That stuff has been, you know, around for for years for decades. Right. I mean, it predating Roswell. I mean, it goes back much earlier than that. We have there is no question that they are, they are they are there there are craft that we do not understand. visiting our planet. There’s no question of that. And I don’t think for one second, that we are alone in the universe. And you know, I’ve often asked in in tribal areas, what do they think about this? And do they ever see things in the skies? Because I’ve always been fascinated by this. And I’m going to tell my UFO story in a second. And they say, Oh, sure, absolutely. You know, yeah, they come here we see them. And and this guy that I was telling you about earlier, my friend, the surgeon who took me back to this wasn’t and he spent some time with the sun. Bushman who are the last remaining remnants of the Stone Age culture of Africa, they still live in Botswana. In the Kalahari Desert. They’re a nomadic group of people who move everyday from one place to another. And they have what is known as a trance dance at night, they light a fire, and the men go around the fire, and they go into another state of consciousness, they go into another stage of awareness altogether. And it’s almost like doing remote viewing women drum and they go into a state where they can see where the wildlife or the the animals will be a week from now, or two days from now or three days from now, and where they will be because they’re hunter gatherers, so that they know where to go and do the hunt. And they can see that they travel there in their in their consciousness in their trance dense state. Yeah, these are the sudden people have but they still do it now, you know, so. And when my friend went there on one, one of his research trips, above the camp one night Is This Disc just appears above the group of people in the middle of the Kalahari Desert. It’s nothing there except sand dunes, a fire and these people going around before the the flames and the women drumming. And my friend says, What’s that? And the interpreters asks one of the local people, what’s that? And then the OLED guy, this was in New Zealand tells him and he says, he comes back and he says, Oh, don’t worry about them. Those are the people from the other world that come here all the time.

It’s like, don’t be in that it happens every day. You know, it’s a, it’s a given. We’re not alone. And those folks know that, you know, where we, you know, make a big deal out of it. And I think it’s because we’re hostile. You know, that maybe a UFO would have landed on the White House lawn on the White House lawn, or on the Mall, you know, or in Fifth Avenue, or wherever, if we weren’t so hostile because we are probably the hostile ones, not them. Now, I’ll tell you a story. Who knows what these what these what these craft are and I do believe that we have been exposed to alien entities I really do. But that’s another whole subject matter. But in 1966, I was in Canada, and I was working on a documentary about how urban areas developed in Canada, and are the Canadians live basically, all along a string along just north of the US border. That’s where all the major cities are. Right? Everyone knows that. But here and there, you find the little settlements up in the northern Canada is huge. And so we were filming in the province of Saskatchewan. And what we need what we were doing was we were filming at a protest plant protest is that they dig the dig the stuff out of the ground, like a white material. And they use it and fertilizer and all that sort of stuff. And, and in this potage plant, they they there’s nothing in that area, other than, you know, wheat fields, and cornfields for miles and miles and miles. And this potash mine. So we wanted to film a sequence day because I rounded was developing this little town. And that was part of our story, how communities get born, the genesis of urban areas and how they develop. So we needed to film with this potage plan. So that night, we staying it’s a small crew, just three of us, we stay at a motel, and the next morning, we get up pretty early to go and drive to the protest plant. And we’re driving and you could see that like 3040 miles away, you could see this white dust coming up from the rug. And there’s clouds sitting in the sky from this potez plant. And, you know, eventually we get to, to to the plant, we get to the main gate. And as we get to the main gate, and the guy says to you, you know, he signs us in he says, You guys are going to get down to the parking lot and and take a look at that cloud because there’s something up there. Like, you know, what do you mean? No, we don’t know what it is. But there’s something up there in that cloud, you know? Okay, fine. So we drive done station wagon days, the days when you used to have station wagons, and we drive down and we unpacked the station wagon, I unpacked the camera equipment, the director, I wasn’t directing that the director meets the manager of the mind, and they go and talk about the day’s filming. But I set up the camera in the parking lot. And I put on the longest lens, we have like a telephoto lens. And I trained it on this club because a couple of the guys from the working at the mine, they came up to me and they said, Are you trying to shoot? Are you trying to get a picture of that thing that’s up there? And I said, Yeah, what is it is it and they said we don’t know. But every now and again, you can sort of catch a glimpse of something sitting in that cloud. I’m intrigued. So I put on this lens. And I look at this card. And after about 20 minutes or so a little breeze comes up and the card dissipates. And in the cloud is definitely something metallic. Hmm. And I think wow, you know, I was a UFO flying saucer fanatic ever since I read ga dumpskey book back in the early 50s about flying saucers have landed. You know, that was the first evidence that perhaps things were like UFOs plank sources existed, right? And so I was always open to that and interested Besides, I was always a sci fi nut. And so I was waiting for whatever this thing was to reveal itself. And then another little breeze comes up. And I tell you, there is this cruft sitting up in the sky. Now people often ask me, How high how big. This was before the days of 747 jumbo jets. But it was a size of one of those around around disk, a triangle beneath the disk and like a tripod connecting the the triangle to this disk, no windows, no sound, nothing just their metallic, the sun reflecting off the surface of this thing. Well, in this card, and I run film, I’m running film, I’m getting some film, we shooting 16 millimeter on this particular documentary. And I’m running film. And I must have shot about 150 film, if you the film of nothing, except this, this craft sitting in the white sky in this whacked out.

Anyway, I’ve entered turn the camera off because of the cloud eventually, you know, covered it up again. And the director comes out and says Okay, enough of that, let’s get on with it with the work we had to do. And we spend the rest of the day working at the plant. You know, at that night, we still had no idea what we’d seen. That night it was my job to go down to the local railroad depot and hand in the film to be sent all the way to Montreal to go to the lab to be processed to await our arrival, you know, weeks later, which I did, but I separated this piece of film in a separate cannon. I said hold for our arrival, you know, just for the editor, just keep this dump. don’t dump it just keep it and so you know a few weeks later we get back to Montreal and now it’s time to look at the at the dailies of this shoot that we’d been on and you know, we took a lot I’m looking at all the boarding footage of housing and you know, mines and stuff. And at the end of all of that the projectionists at the back yells out, he said, You want me to show this? This short reel? Yeah, that you’ve got yet that says, hold for a rival? Yes, please put it on. So you know, he puts it on. And we’ve got the head of the camera department there. We’ve got a couple of other people there. And showing up on the screen as clear as day like there is this craft, sitting in the sky, silently doing absolutely nothing except us. There. Wow. And the feeling was, we don’t know what that is. But it was a during the days of Project bluebook. And everyone knew about Project bluebook. You know, it was it was it was it was big news Project Blue Book was run by J. Allen Hynek out of I think it was Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio. And so the head of the camera Department says why don’t we send that footage down to the States? And let them analyze it and see what it is. Maybe it’s something that they’d be interested in? Who knows, you know, so yeah, sure. So the the the secretary who worked for him, her name was Frankie Johnson, I’ll never forget her name. She you know, wraps up the stuff and carries it to Ohio. And we forget about it. Some weeks go by and one day I go into the camera department and I say to her Frankie, did we ever hear back from those folks in the in the States about that, that thing that we that we shot above Saskatchewan above that mind? And she said no, let me call them. You know. And it was, you know, she looked at the time difference. He said, I can call a hire right now. So she calls the project bluebook, the office from the camera department office? And she says, oh, oh, really? I’m sorry to hear that, you know, and put you puts the phone down. She said they deny ever receiving the footage? No. It was Korea to them, they did receive it, they signed for it and then denied ever receiving it. Which lend to me, and secondly, to a whole lot of other folks. The fact that they was you know, there was an attempt to conceal information from the public about these stones.

Brian Smith 1:12:13
Yeah, there’s no doubt about that at this point. I mean, the government has admitted it. So, you know, if you told me this 10 years ago, I might say okay, but yeah, now they’ve admitted it,

Lionel Friedberg 1:12:24
there’s that they have. So you know, so how much more is there to know, I think a lot. And I think the time is coming? Pretty close, that they may reveal some stuff to us, you know? Because, yeah, there’s definitely it’s for real, it’s it’s, it’s it’s been happening for a long, long time. Jacques valet is a very, very famous French researcher who’s been collecting material about this stuff for years and years. He’s just brought out an incredible new book. And it goes right back to the times of even Ancient Egypt. He’s got artwork in this book that shows and even on the Middle Ages, you know, they were tapestries and paintings done in Europe, about flying objects in the sky. It’s been around forever.

Brian Smith 1:13:09
Yeah, absolutely. We’re running a little bit over. But I do want to ask you one more question I want to talk to you about you. So you shot a documentary about near death experiences, it’s like to get get your take on that for a few minutes,

Lionel Friedberg 1:13:22
I met a number of people who had Indies. And all of them told extraordinary stories. The one particular one that I found particularly interesting was a woman by the name of I just use her first name, Pam, this was in Atlanta, she was clinically dead on the operating table, they had to remove an aneurysm from her brain. And she was you know, it’s it’s very tricky to not have oxygen going to the brain because your brain can can basically shut down. So you gotta, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta be able to, if you if you are dead, and I have resuscitated people many, many times, you know, by using pedals on the, but the trying not to let the brain not get oxygen for too long, because you could have permanent brain damage, right? This is always the problem. But they had a Pam, they had to stop the blood flowing in her veins and stop her heart. Because that was the only way to get the aneurysm to get into the brain and get the aneurysm out of there without her losing a lot of blood. So she must have been clinically dead for about 15 minutes. And then they sewed it up, put in an revived, resuscitated her. And when she was resuscitated After that, she basically described every single thing that happened to her to her surgeon, a surgeon didn’t believe a word of it. And he said, Great, what did what did you see? She described things that he did. She described the fact you know, one of the assistants at during the operation, the surgeon asked for an instrument then the nurse dropped it and he scolded her. And Pam said I saw you do that. Why did you do that? You saw that you were connected. did at that time to sit now I saw you do that. She described the music that he was playing the surgery went on for like four or five hours. And he had a little tape deck in the corner of the of the of the operating room. She said I liked some of your music. But I didn’t like the song. And I didn’t like that. He said, How could you possibly have heard that? So I interviewed him, I talked to her. There was no question that she was absolutely awake and alive and aware throughout her operations. And she was witnessing what was going on. I met, I met a guy who was basically the dead, he was crushed by a boulder. And he was brought back to life. And he described his entire trip in the ambulance, what happened to him in the operating room. But you know, talking to adults is one thing. But what really was amazing for me were the children that I talked to who had near death experiences. There’s a guy who’s a pediatrician in Seattle. And I’ll try and make this quick because I know we’re running over time now. But I met about four or five kids that were introduced to me by this pediatrician, he interviewed kids who had all been clinically dead, and being resuscitated. And he asked them to draw pictures of what they saw while they were asleep. In other words, while they were dead, and yeah, yeah, all of those pictures were very similar. And none of these kids knew each other, this tunnel of light, these white beings, these angels, these big blobs of light that floated around the fact that they were given an option to return back to mommy and daddy, or to go to another place, you know, follow the angels, or whatever, whatever these white fingers were that they’re talking about. When kids tell you things like that they’re not lying, they’re making it up, especially when they don’t know each other and also similar. So there is no death. It’s just the demise of the physical body. And for Polk folks who really want to find out some really good scientific stuff about it. Read about Dr. Robert john, and the Princeton anomalies Research Unit at Princeton University guy is not passed on he was in my show, I did a show for one of the networks called Beyond this a two hour show. And the brief was what happens to the to the consciousness, or the spirit or the soul, and the body dies. And that’s what this two hour special was about. I met the most, there is no death. It’s just the demise of a physical being. We go on, there is no end. Wow, there’s no question of that.

Brian Smith 1:17:28
Well, that is that is a great note to end on. I want to thank you for for doing this. This has been a fascinating time spent with you. Any last thoughts you want to say before we wrap up?

Lionel Friedberg 1:17:39
You know, I think I think probably one I’d like to you know, if I have anything to say, and if I’ve learned anything, and particularly now You and I are doing this a day after martin luther king day, when we are we’re doing this interview today. You know, and, and, and tomorrow is Inauguration Day. And so we’re living in kind of troubling times, and a lot of people are scared. And we’ve got a pandemic around us. The world is dark and scary right now. But you know, I just want folks to think and because my experience has been, you know, there’s always light at the end of every tunnel. And we always have to remain, maintain a positive attitude. And I think one of the most critical and important things to do is to not to listen to hearsay, but to be curious, within yourself, and to try and find out. If you’re curious about anything, find out as much as you can without believing everything that you’re told, because I have found that insatiable curiosity, keeps you alive and keeps you young and keeps you going. The more we know, the more we know what we don’t know. And how much more incredible is the universe as we live in this incredible place? Well, it’s an extraordinary, it’s an extraordinary journey. We’re all on the same journey. And I think we’re all connected. I think there’s a grid that binds every one of us.

Brian Smith 1:19:02
Absolutely. Well, I want to thank you again, for being here. I want to tell people how they can get the book. It’s coming out very shortly. We’re recording this on January 19 2021, is called forever in my veins. How film led me to the mysterious world of the African shaman just by Lionel freedberg. You can find out more about the book at john hunt publishing.com. And I’ll put a link to that in the show notes. Or on

Lionel Friedberg 1:19:27
Amazon. It’s available right now.

Brian Smith 1:19:28
It’s available on Amazon right now. Okay, great.

Lionel Friedberg 1:19:30

Brian Smith 1:19:31
I want to encourage people to get the book if you like the movies, if you like adventure. And it’s it’s it’s a whole adventure of your life mixed in with all this great stuff about, you know, the extended consciousness realm that we’re all interested in. So thanks again for being here.

Lionel Friedberg 1:19:47
Thank you, Brian. Thank you so much. It’s been a great pleasure. Thanks for having me on. And thanks, everyone for watching. I appreciate it so much.

Brian Smith 1:19:53
Thanks. Have a good day.

Lionel Friedberg 1:19:54
Thank you.

Brian Smith 1:19:55
That’s it for another episode of grief to growth. I sure hope you got something out of it. Please stay in contact with me by reaching out at www dot grief to growth.com. That’s grief the number two growth.com or you can text the word growth to 31996. That’s simply text growth gr o w th 231996. So if you’re watching this on YouTube, please make sure you subscribe. So hit the subscribe button, and then hit the little bell here and it’ll notify you when I have new content. Always please share the information if you enjoy it. That helps me to get more views and get the message out to more people. Thanks a lot and have a wonderful day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai