2,000 days

48,000 hours

5.479 years

That’s how long it’s been since my life changed forever. June 24th, 2015 was the day that my daughter Shayna Elayne left this Earthly plane.  Today is December 14th, 2020

This morning I woke up and thought about how things have changed since June 24th, 2015.

I got up, and I looked at my blog that I started amazingly the day after Shayna passed. Something told me to document this journey similar to what C.S. Lewis did in his book “A Grief Observed”. I didn’t know why I was doing it. I just had to. Then, just a week later, I made the blog public.

This post gets filed under several categories- milestones because it’s 2,000 days since Shayna passed, signs because I got a sign today, and podcast for the obvious reason.

First the sign. Today has been 2,000 days since Shayna passed. My YouTube channel has been creeping up on 2,000 subscribers for a while. Today, the channel hit exactly 2,000 subscribers.


2000 days

48000 hours

5.479 years

That’s how long it’s been since my life changed forever. June 24th, 2015 was the day that my daughter Shayna Elayne left this Earthly plane. Today is December 14th, 2020

This morning I woke up, and thought about how things have changed since June 24th, 2015.

I got up, and I looked at my blog that I started amazingly the day after Shayna passed. Something told me to document this journey similar to what C.S. Lewis did in his book “A Grief Observed”. I didn’t know why I was doing it. I just had to. Then, just a week later, I made the blog public.

As I read those early entries, the whole first week A.S. (time is now measured as before Shayna’s passing and after) came flooding back.

I woke up on what I thought was an ordinary day. I took a 3 or 4-mile walk. I came back and sat down to work in my office. Then, I heard Tywana call to me saying something was wrong. I remembered the feeling that my wife and I had when we found Shayna in her bedroom that morning. She wasn’t cold yet. She couldn’t be dead. My mind could simply not accept reality. I recalled the feeling of total disbelief, the feeling of shock, crying out to God, screaming her name thinking I could somehow shout loud enough to be heard across the Void and call her back to me.

The memories of falling to my knees before getting into the police car came back. I remembered my neighbor coming over and asking if everything was all right and me not even being able to form the words to answer her. The police officer who gave me a ride to the hospital as my wife rode in the ambulance with Shayna, him offering to pray and me not even having a prayer to offer.

I called my parents and asked them to pray. I remember Dad saying that once you lost a child things were never the same. “Why did he say that?” I thought. “I haven’t lost a child.” Shayna will be OK. She has to be OK.

I knew Shayna had not taken a breah in an impossibly long time. Yet, I clung to the idea that she would be all right. This could not happen to us. We sat in the waiting room with friends who showed up to support us. Then, the chaplain came in. I knew this was bad. I didn’t want to see the chaplain. I wanted to hear a doctor tell me she had started breathing and wanted to see us.The chaplain wanted to pray. I could not stop him. He prayed for God’s will to be done. I countered his prayer. “To hell with God’s will, just give me my daughter back.”
When the doctor finally came in and told us that they have pronounced Shayna dead I immediately had the thought that that’s it my life is over. My life will never be the same but immediately followed by the thought that I had to take care of my wife and my other daughter Kayla. That whatever happened, the three of us had to stay together. I knew I had to be there for them. I held Tywana and committed to her that I would be there for her; not having any idea what that would look like.

Walking out of the hospital that day the parallel to the day that Shayna was born 15-½ years earlier struck me. We walked into Good Samaritan Hospital in January 2020 empty-handed and walked out with Shayna. We walked into West Chester Hospital on that fateful day hoping to walk out with Shayna and we walked out leaving her body there.That walk to my brother’s car was the hardest walk I’ve ever taken.

Here I sit 5.48 years later. 48,000 hours later, 2000 days later. I never had any idea that I would still be here. In those early days after her passing whenever anyone said anything to me about the future if it was more than a week in the future, I’d get angry because I could not even imagine living a week without my daughter being on this planet When people talked about years I’d tell them I had no plan to be here in years.

I’ll be 60 in May which to me seems like an old man and I can’t believe I’m still here. What has happened in the course of that 2000 days nothing short of a miracle.

Some things are still the same. We’re still running our business, Treasured Locks. We still live in the same house. Kayla went back to school right away. She got her undergrad degree and will finish her Masters in a few months.

Something had to change. After Shayna passed I realized very quickly that I had to do something about how I lived my life. I could not just accept where I was. I didn’t want to live. My only motivation for staying here was Tywana and Kayla. That was enough short term. But I knew that I could not just stay here and survive, that I had to somehow seek healing even though healing seemed impossible. I didn’t even want to heal. I thought that to honor Shayna that I should be miserable for the rest of my life. I wanted people to say that after she passed Brian was never the same. I thought that would be a fitting way to show how much she meant to me. I remember going to a grief group and early on and a mother was there and her daughter had passed about 10 years prior. This woman was angry and bitter and I believe she went to the gravesite at least once a week. She talked about how unfair it was her daughter at passing how she was miserable and always be miserable and I realize she was making everybody in the room miserable. You know we can learn from everyone we come across. I learned from that woman that day. Her bitterness and anger taught me something. I learned I didn’t want to be that person. Something different had to happen. So, I started reaching out to people and someone recommended to me that I reach out to a guy named Mark Ireland. I had never heard of Mark Ireland but he wrote a couple of books about the passing of his son Brandon. Mark started a group called Helping parents heal along with Elizabeth Boisson. So I wrote an email to a stranger which is so unlike me to write to a perfect stranger. Mark wrote back and sent me copies of both of his books which I read and which were helpful.

The next May, we planned a vacation for the three of us, Tywana, Kayla, and me. The girls loved going to the beach and Kayla decided instead of going to the beach this time, we would go to the opposite. We decided to go to the desert to Phoenix, Arizona. I had spoken to Elizabeth Boisson at this point. But, I had no idea she lived near Phoenix. Elizabeth happened to be just a few minutes away from where we were staying. So we met Elizabeth for breakfast. Long story short, a little while after that, we decided to start a chapter of helping parents heal in Cincinnati Ohio. That eventually turned into the Helping Parents Heal online Group, which I helped to run for several years growing it up to around 6,000 people.

Meanwhile, in 2019, I took mentorship from a business coach to try to improve Treasured Locks. This was George Kao, a guy I had heard on Suzanne Giesemann’s podcast. Suzanne is a world-class medium and someone I consider a friend. I figured if she was using this guy, he must be good.

A friend sent me a message saying she had run across a life coaching course she thought I’d be interested in. This was strange because I had never mentioned becoming a life coach to her. But, since she’s an intuitive, I trusted her intuition and took the course. I thought it could help with my work with Helping Parents Heal. Then, it dawned on me. The mentorship course I was taking wasn’t for Treasured Locks. I was supposed to launch a new business. In April 2019, almost four years after Shayna passed, I started developing the web page and wrote a short book on Grief.

I wanted to create something short and easy to digest from the perspective of someone who had first-hand experience with child loss. I wanted to share the raw emotions I had felt and what had worked for me up to that point. I took everything I knew and I wrote one big Google Doc and created this book and put it. A couple of months later, I started the podcast.

As I write this, it’s a year and a half or so after I started the podcast and wrote the book. The podcast is approaching 50,000 downloads. I’ve got nearly two thousand subscribers on YouTube. A couple of videos have gone somewhat viral with over 20,000 views.

I am teaching classes. As kind of a sidetrack, I’ve developed a course on racism. I taught a class with Robin landsong this weekend. It’s the second time we have offered it- a new way to look at grief and death along with Robin doing singing medicine for the participants. I’ve done classes with Dr. Terry Daniel. We are finishing one up this coming Sunday. I have spoken at the Afterlife Conference and the Helping Parents Heal Conference. I have hosted a grief panel for the International Association of Near Death Studies.

My coaching and grief guidance work continues to grow. It’s extremely gratifying when a parent or any other griever tells me that my work has helped them.

It seems like recently I’ve been coming across a lot of parents who are early in their grief, and I’m talking about weeks or maybe sometimes a couple of months. I’m grateful that I can remember what those early days/weeks/months were like so that I can relate to what they are going through. It’s nothing short of hell on Earth. I wrote about that in my blog in the early days.

Last week I was teaching the class “10 Life-changing Lessons From Heaven” a book and course about wisdom from near death experiences. The group was all women who have children in spirit. Most of the women there were just a few months in, and I want to address those people.

When I first started this journey, I had no idea that I could ever make it and I certainly didn’t think I’d ever be happy again. I remember looking at people like Elizabeth Boisson and others who had been on this journey longer than I had and thinking I’ll never be that what they are. Frankly, I didn’t even aspire to be what they were. They were joyful and doing fulfilling work. That would never be me.

I talked with a mother just a few days ago who was broken, and I mean totally broken. She had faith in God. She had been through other losses in her life, deaths other than the death of her daughter. But there’s something different about when it’s your kid, and she had lost her faith in God, her faith in the Bible, her confidence in herself. Without that foundation of God and the Bible she didn’t know who she was anymore.

I had just listened to a podcast about the value of despair. It’s the point most, if not all, of the saints have reached. It’s known as the Dark Night of the Soul. Even Jesus experienced this in the Garden of Gethsemane as he sweated blood tormented by the thought of what laid ahead of him and as he hanged there bleeding on the cross crying out “My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?”

As I spoke with her, my heart went out to her. But, I saw a saint in the making. I saw someone who had gotten to the point where she was broken wide open, an empty vessel ready to receive. The cracks are the places where the light gets in. She was seeking, asking questions, reaching out for a new view because circumstances ripped her old understanding away.

I was listening to a wisdom book a few days ago. One of the things it said was if you’re climbing a mountain and you feel like giving up; it’s okay to give up. Just keep moving your feet.

This gem resonated with me because I heard it listening to the book while taking my morning walk. I’ve walked every morning for the past several years, going back to before Shayna’s transition. After she transitioned, I turned that walk into a walking meditation. I would imagine that each step was a day. As I left my house, each step brought me closer to the step that would bring me back home. Each day brought me one day closer to the day when I would arrive at Home and see Shayna again. A friend I met on Facebook, Carolyn Clapper, not knowing this, messaged me on Facebook one day saying Shayna had dropped in on her and told her that I was walking trying to catch up with Shayna. That was 100% true. I’m not on step 2,000 on my round trip journey from Home back to Home.

Climbing a mountain or taking a walk, the analogy is the same. I don’t always feel like taking my walk. Many mornings when I first leave the house, I don’t think I’ll be able to do the seven miles. But, as long as I keep putting one foot in front of the other, it doesn’t matter what I feel, I will eventually get to my destination.

In those early days, I didn’t think healing was possible. I didn’t even want to heal. But, I kept taking the steps anyway. Even if you’re like I was and say there’s no way I’m going to possibly heal, just keep doing the things it takes to heal.

To this day I have times I don’t feel like I’ll make it. There isn’t a day that goes by when I don’t long to be Home, NOW. There are times I wake up in the morning my first thought is, “I’m tired. Why do I have to do this again?”

I then do my gratitude practice. I think of three things I’m grateful for, even if it’s as simple as having a nice warm bed. I think of what I need to do today, just today. And, I get up and do it. Doing that enough times has led me to here, 2,000 days later.

The milestones that we go through are opportunities to stop and take stock. Life can only be understood backward but must be lived forward. I thought my life ended that day in the hospital in June 2015. But, our stories never end. It was the end of a chapter. But one chapter closes, and another opens. We think of death as the end of the book. But, even death is just the end of another chapter. Death is the chapter at the horizon that we can’t see beyond. But, trust me, one thing I’ve learned for sure in the past 2,000 days is it’s not the end of the book.

What about you. Where are you on your journey? As I record this, it’s also the close of the weirdest year in the memory of everyone I know; 2020 is drawing to a close. We typically take this time, the New Year, to reflect on where we are and where we want to be. Take some time to reflect on the journey that got you to this point. If you’re going through hell, keep going. And remember what one man can do, another man can do. If I can do this, anyone can.

I’ve read The Team books two or three times. They contain some of the best afterlife and current life wisdom I’ve found anywhere. I met the author, Frances Key over a year ago when I participated in a book study of the first book. On October 9, 2010, at the age of 86, Gloria Crystal “Teddy” Key passed away at her Florida home, her family by her side.

Nineteen days later, her beautiful voice began to communicate with her eldest daughter, Frances, about the scope and wonder of her new perspective from the afterlife state. Through a variety of experiences including automatic writing, direct contact, and sudden downloads of information, this remarkable collection of insight was handwritten in less than a year. Divided into four books, the Team material has astounded a growing circle of readers with its unique analogies, wit, depth of wisdom, and unusual outlook on the human experience.


The poem read at the end is here:



Brian Smith 0:01
Hey everybody, this is Brian Smith and I’m back with another episode of grief to growth. And I’m really excited about this episode today I’ve got with me, Francis key, who is someone who wrote a series of books called the team. And if you’ve been following me for any length of time, you’ve heard me mentioned the team before. They’re some of my all time favorite books. I’ve read the books like each each book a couple of times, it’s a series of four books. So what happened is at the age of 86, Francis mother, her name was Gloria crystal, Teddy was her nickname, key, she passed away to Florida home or a family was by her side, when 19 days later, she began to communicate with her eldest daughter, who’s Francis, who I’ve got with me today about the scope and wonder of her new perspective from the afterlife state. And Francis went through a variety of experiences, including automatic writing, direct contact, and sudden downloads of information and put together this collection of information that she’s titled The team. So as I said, it’s a series of four books, the book one, Book Two, Book Three, and then the fourth book is called, I believe it’s called Beyond the team.

So I want to introduce Francis key. I’m excited to have her. And we’ve met a while ago, we have some trouble getting this worked out, but we’re finally together.

Frances Key 1:14
Okay, yes, we’re here. We’re here at the right time, I’m sure.

Brian Smith 1:17
Yeah, absolutely. Francis, I was, as I was saying, in the introduction, the books are just to me amazing. And I say that because I’ve read them multiple times I’ve shared with a lot of people. But I want to let people know how the books came to you. So explain me what that experience was like?

Frances Key 1:37
Yes, well, it’s been 10, full years. Now we’re talking hardly believe. And I always like to explain to people the background, the relationship I had with my mother, before she died, because I considered her my best friend, and spiritual teacher throughout my life. So we had this

shared bond, and

we’d had a number of different kinds of spiritual experiences together in our lifetime. Anyway, we really had a foundation.

When I was very young, I used to do,

I used to write poetry. And I would tell my mother, that something took over my hand and would write these very, very beautiful poems that were way beyond my age. And she kind of counseled me and what that was, and she understood that I had this natural tendency. before she died, she constantly told me you should do that kind of writing again, and write down some of the spiritual things you’ve learned in life. And I’d always say no,

I don’t feel drawn to that. And I tell her, she should write a book because she was so wise. And I said, just make it 80 concepts from an 80 year old before you died, you know, just go No, I’m too old. I’m too tired. Well, little did I realize, and I truly had no inkling that I would have this level of connection with her after she died. And that, indeed, she would get the book written that she thought that I should have been writing and, and that I thought she should have been writing. Wow, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 3:16

Frances Key 3:18
I was with her when she passed, I was with her when she took her last breath. And I felt at the moment of her passing, something I didn’t understand. But I grew to understand. And it was, I felt like a part of me left. And a part of her entered a part of her state in a way and a part of me left. And I think this literally happened because I’ve come to learn from these books. And believe me, I’m a student of the material, not a master of it. I’m not even the author of it. I study it like anybody else. So I’m growing in my understanding of it. But I came to understand that we have different aspects to the soul. And that I think what occurred was

Unknown Speaker 4:11

Frances Key 4:16
departed the earth. Because on the other side at all times, at all times, I hope you can hear me clearly. So I felt like something within left and something of her remained. And it allowed this connection, this communication to take place.

Unknown Speaker 4:39

Frances Key 4:41
three days after she told my sister I’ve heard son, I fell in my nickname strategy. And I said, all the frankness is gone. And she said, Well, this doesn’t sound normal. This doesn’t sound healthy. You should talk to a counselor. I said, No. It’s I couldn’t put into words that something had gone. And something had entered. So 19 days after she died, was on an airplane to New York City and members live. And I go back and forth all the time to Florida. Anyway, on the plane, I looked out at that incredible, beautiful VISTA of clouds. And I was feeling very emotional. And I just said the question to my mother. It’s Is there any distance where you are for me, I could hear her voice. Her beautiful Australian very distinctive voice, not a vague, unusual voice that you aren’t sure who’s talking to you. But it was really clearly her. It was in my mind, but it felt also like it was audible. And she said not. There’s no distance, the way you experience it. And she said, how she could drop into somebody’s state of consciousness, like you might drop into visit someone in a neighborhood. Anyway, from that first statement, I just started asking questions and receiving these answers immediately. And the main thing she pointed out in that conversation was, you are not alone. You are not even functioning as one person, nobody is for you are a member of a team, the spiritual team as close to you is breathing. So I began, I got out a piece of paper, and I just started writing down everything I was asking and her answers. And a lot of personal at that, at that point. For that hour and a half plane ride, it was more my own personal experience of her. But then it started to branch into more universal concepts about where she was about how she was about it. And as much as about why we’re here, and the purpose of our lives as as about the other side. And I thought this would be a personal experience. But when I got off the plane, it continued. And it actually continued for about a year and a half very intensely. Hmm. I wrote the first book that she dictated in three weeks, but one, and then the rest, it was all handwritten, because it just was part of the process, and then had to be tucked up. So the rest came, and I was able to release them, you know, throughout the next few years. But when I read this material, I really can’t believe it myself. It’s so far beyond anything that I personally would be able to, to write, or even speak. That’s why I feel like I’m just a person talking about the books unless I read from them directly. The language, the kinds of concepts that I had never been aware of. And many people I talked to who study for many years about spiritual concepts have never been aware of it was like a layer than another layer than another layer. In book one, it was an experience of just my mother. It was completely her voice. And then by the rest of the other end, she said that spoke one at the end of it. But with the other books. It felt like I had other connections that that there was a team. And this team, some had were more scientific. And some were more medical, some were more playful and creative. And there were different, almost different energies and the chapters kind of reflect that. It always reflects her. But you can feel sort of in beyond the team where it goes into almost like a quantum physics type kind of information and some of those chapters. There’s different. Different expertise. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s how the books came to be. Do you want to ask me something else about that before I proceed? Well,

Brian Smith 9:28
no, I think I think you did a really good job of telling us kind of how they came to be. And you know, it’s interesting because I you know, I’ve done a book study together before in the books and you said even at the time you said, Well, I’m just a student and the books that that they that they channeled that you channeled them, but I love that story also, but you writing the poetry, you know, as a child that this is stuff that you were channeling at the time and your mother having this wisdom and the two of you working as a team as a team was just perfect for what the concept is, you know, of the of the whole book and the thing I was that fascinates me about and I love the name, even the team because we think we think, okay, what’s the purpose of our life, but we think, well, we come here for individual growth. And then sometimes we hear well, we have spirit guides, we have a team of people here, but they’re all here to kind of support us. But and this concept of at least I got, the book says that we’re actually all part of a team, we’re not even really individuals.

Frances Key 10:24
Yeah, Book One, it really is so amazing to me how she describes that we are representatives of our team, That, to me, that’s such a meaningful concept about how we how to live our lives, you know, and she says, if you think of a business, or a person going to a conference, a business conference, that before they go, they stand up as the representative that the person who’s speaking at that conference, but before they go, they’re prepared by an entire team of people, you know, backstage or back home in the conference room, and their meetings and their brainstorming and their troubleshooting. And this kind of thing is done before that person speaks. So and then, and then you return to your team and you debrief them, you tell them well, I went to the conference, this is what went right. This is what I could have done this better, or I found out we really need to work on this. And everybody vicariously absorbs that information. Of course, some of our teammates are right here with us physically by our side, and some are on the other side. And we exchange positions, when we pass away, we work from the other side, the work is still the same, we’re just doing it from a different location. Yeah. And others enter here, and they have their physical experience, and they do their work as well. But all of that is absorbed by our team. And in that way, all the wisdom is leveraged so that everybody doesn’t have to do everything or experience everything or incarnate incarnate to do and experience every single thing. You can learn vicariously, and you can absorb. If you’re just like we absorbed from one another. Yeah, we take that information and we incorporate it into our lives, what you’ve gone through, I am learning from what I’ve gone through you’re learning from, we don’t have to do exactly the same thing to get that the impact of it.

Brian Smith 12:42
Yeah, I love that. And I’ve seen that hinted at in other places,

Unknown Speaker 12:46

Brian Smith 12:48
sorry, can hear me. I’ve seen that. I’ve seen this concept kind of hinted at and other places, but never as thick as fully developed as they are in the books that you’ve written. This idea that we can share information. And I think it kind of explains for me like one of the mysteries of is like reincarnation, we talked about, do we come back over and over again? And what’s the point of it? I think, I think this kind of helped us explain some of that. We don’t necessarily come back as the same person because we’re all part of this, this larger group.

Frances Key 13:26
Right? And, yes, she says a lot about reincarnation, she said, there’s a lot more to it than just you’ve your full soul comes, has experiences, leaves comes back with karma has experienced, it’s not like that, right? It’s much more. It’s much more connected to to your team. And it’s also connected to the fact. And this is so exciting and important to me. That just like the human brain has all these segments to it. That is our brain right now, we are doing many, many, many things at the same time. You know, I mean, we have a part of our brain that’s handling our breathing and heartbeat that we don’t even regulate consciously, that happens on its own. If you have a part of our brain that’s thinking about the technology, we have a part of our brain. There’s mathematical part and a language part you have all these parts to your brain. And it’s explained in the books it’s like that for the soul, we have all these segments or aspects to the soul. And when we come when the body when the body is born, and it’s so important to think about with our children or our loved ones who have died, that they are so much more than just the child or the person that we knew them has, that they are this infinite soul, who use this body For a time for a purpose, and only aspects of the soul come in with the body are connected to the body. Just like when you walk into a math class in college, your math part of your brain is engaged. But the other part your brain, you’re doing all kinds of other things, the same thing happens to the soul. And so when the body dies, that aspect, completed that work with that life. But it may be another aspect entirely, that comes back for another life. And all that information of that aspect goes back to your full self, there’s a chapter called the rest of you. And it says, it’s like you’re sitting on the bank of bank of a river and you’ve got your foot, you’ve got your toes in the water. But the rest of you is up on the bank, the rest of you is, is on the other side. And only part of you is extended down into the physical world. So each of us is so much more than what is even here. At this time. I know I got off on a tangent, but we were talking about oh reincarnation. So it’s not our full self that comes in. So even if we reincarnate, it isn’t the full self, it’s another aspect that needs to do something else this time. And we, we trade off with our teammates. It just it gives the example in the book if if a really strong person is present, they’re going to pick up two of those heavy suitcases and let the the child or the weaker one, you know, carry the rolling suitcase. So we may come into a lifetime. And we may take on a great deal of if you want to call it burden, difficulty challenge. And we may do that for a teammate who’s weaker, or who needs to rest. So we’re all doing this. And it’s much more than just, you know, live guy come back with karma. It’s not as personal as all that we do. We do it for others, we take on things for others, that might not even be our own. And another person’s difficulty another person’s karma. It’s our opportunity for compassion.

Brian Smith 17:32
Yeah, yeah, that that’s another really, I think, interesting concept. Because, again, we think of ourselves so individualistically and we think well, how does this affect me? You know, my illness, my mike my burden, the thing that I’m carrying, but it may not be for us personally, it may be for the other person or for our caregiver for example.

Frances Key 17:55
Yes, yes. Um, no, she constantly refers to the lookout tower of the soul said if you can take time every day in your meditation, or even just in your thought, just sitting and thinking. In a light, your thoughts go into lookout tower of the soul, like you’re going up in an airplane. It’s just so much vaster, wider, broader,

Unknown Speaker 18:25

Frances Key 18:27
than just our turnout. I’m so drawn right now to read. To read a few things, sir, here. There’s a chapter in books three called where relationships abide. And it says here and she touch speak to or look at one another, you assume that you’re interacting through your bodies. However, if the soul were not present with the body, you would have no awareness of this interaction. The true interaction, it’s in a realm that is free of the body. It is an interaction that precedes and goes beyond deaths. So this is what make makes our relationships eternal. Where do relationships abide they abide in the realm of the soul. This is not only so when the body has died. It is true when both bodies are still alive. This is because the relationship doesn’t ever dwell in your bodies in the first splice in both death and life. Your relationship dwells in the soul.

Brian Smith 20:07

Frances Key 20:08
So you and I would not be having this conversation. If our souls were not in connection right now. Yeah. And if our souls did not connect, right now, this conversation would end instantly.

And grieve. It says here it is not to negate the authentic pain, that it’s felt when a death occurs. The physical body interprets the loss of another body as a great absence. This is to be expected. But when we go through grief, to remember and say to yourself, I know that my body and all its accompanying senses, deeply miscible that in the place where our true relationship resides, everything continues as before. It’s not a matter of waiting until you meet again, it is a matter of knowing there has been no interruption in the loving flow of the true relationship in the first place.

Brian Smith 21:35
Yeah, I absolutely love that part. You know, and I think you combine that with the fact that you said earlier that when we come here, it’s only a small part of us that’s here, that most of us is still still I call it home, most of us is still back home. So when we think of our loved ones, you know, they’re that they’re not missing us at all, because we’re still there with them. We’re just still here, on the on the mission for a little while longer know, fulfilling our role, until we drop the body and they’re fully back back at home.

Frances Key 22:06
Right? Yeah, in fact, you just said what the very next paragraph said, and then read the books. And yeah, and it points out here. The love you have with your friends and family members has not died with their forums. Nor does it only live on in a memory. It’s still growing and expanding. The connection you had while they were here isn’t being expressed through a body that walks alongside yours, but it’s every bit as interactive and dynamic as it ever was. You continue to share hobbies together, learn new things together, laugh, create, make plans together as you did when you were both in the body. Souls can recreate earthly experiences if they wish. So you continue to go fishing with your grandfather on that beautiful lake, bake cookies with your and swing your child on their favorite swing, embrace your spouse, and so forth. There’s just so much more of us that is here on the earth. And there’s so much more of our loved one on the other side who has passed and we are continuing our lives together. And what you said, we’re doing our sign our assignment, this aspect of us that is for this body right now has an assignment to complete. And our bodies miss their bodies that are so our souls are together.

Brian Smith 23:44
Yeah. And I think I find it to be a very profound and comforting concept. That and I love the way you said that our bodies miss their bodies, but our souls are still still together. And we can we can learn while we’re here to tap into that higher self a little bit and at least reduce that that missing part of it.

Frances Key 24:06
Yeah, you know, I’m, I sat by my husband, when he took his last breath, I sat with one another. I have not lost a child. And as a mother, I can’t fathom that. That kind of loss. But I’ve I have friends who have lost their children. I have family members who have experienced that loss of a child and even by murder, by drugs by suicide. I have close people in my life who have died that way. So I understand when and I’ve learned when that wave of pain comes to just say, Oh, my senses miss their physical senses. My body misses their body I acknowledge I don’t try to squelch it or pretend or, or push it away. But I try as soon as I can to move my consciousness to the place where we are together.

Brian Smith 25:16
Yeah. Yeah.

Frances Key 25:18
Because we join them the most. You know, it, it’s sort of like, they’re in the next room. They’re up the stairs, and we join them, then stay in the basement. So that’s really the best thing that we can do. It’s to, through meditation, through thought through service to others, like you’re doing, because we teach what we learn. We learn what we teach, exactly. say, Okay, my body misses their body, but my body is not going to last forever, either. Right? So I don’t want to put all my, my focus on what my body feels and what my senses need. You know, I want to work from from the soul viewpoint as much as I can.

Brian Smith 26:27
Yeah, and that’s, and that’s Yeah, the book that they think they do a really good job, at least for me have lifted me to that higher perspective, that Lookout Tower. And I remember what another analogy in the book is, like, We’re on a mission. And some of us are down in the valley and some of our scouts, you know, up in the upper levels, and we and we take turns going back and forth right now, I happen to be on point, you know, I happen to be down down there the trenches, but super member that there is always at higher perspective. And I hear so many people in grief saying I will never see them again. And I it just breaks my heart. Every time I hear someone utter those words, I will never see them again. Because Well, it’s true physically, we won’t see them with our bodies again, we will see them again. And it’s always I think, for me, I’m always have to remind myself through like you said, through meditation, through prayer through service to others, through teaching this, which I do, you know, every day that I got to keep that higher perspective.

Frances Key 27:24
Right. And you know, that there’s another concept and it’s in Book Two called the vibrational spheres. Yeah. Do you remember that one? I

Brian Smith 27:35
love that. Yes.

Frances Key 27:37
I think it helps when, when we have lost a loved one to violence, or to suicide,

Unknown Speaker 27:48
or drugs,

Frances Key 27:50
things of that nature. You know, not illness, it’s one thing that we grapple with, but when these kinds of things happen. It really turned the lights on for me when that chapter came through, because we’re told that at all, throughout the universe, there are these enormous spheres that we’re all contributing to, with our thoughts, our actions. I mean, every hateful, angry thought or word I’ve ever spoken, has contributed to a year of that kind of energy. And every loving, kind, forgiving, generous thing I’ve ever done, has contributed to that ball of energy, if you want to think of it that way of bubbles everywhere. So we tap into the particular sphere. And what happens when we have overwhelming rage that turns into violence, because I’m sure some of your viewers have lost one to violence. My daughter’s my daughter’s boyfriend was shot in a home invasion. You know, a young man just sitting there on this couch. So what happens when these people are overtaken by these terrible, violent urges, or if they tap into drugs, and they can’t pull out of it, we’ve all had loved ones in our family and circle of friends who worked hard, went to rehab did everything they could to pull out of that. That magnetic pole of the draw really happens is that state of rage is is tapping into not only his or her own rage, but the rage throughout the eons of time that people have contributed. When people do these horrendous things, they are just awash in this magnetic pole to these spheres of that kind of energy. Like when people do superhuman things, they go in and pull a car off somebody’s body, they lift an entire car by themselves. They’re tapping into the heroism, the bravery, the courage, the strength of all those who have come before them. And this has helped me with forgiveness of myself. For things I’ve done that I, you know, you look back and you think, how could I have said that? How could I have done that, but we’ve been in touch with a ball of energy that was more powerful than even what we were even feeling at the time. And those people who are committing those crimes or cannot pull free, have been overtaken like a tidal wave by something bigger than in more difficult, dark than themselves. It’s helped me with forgiveness for myself, and it’s helped me with forgiveness for others. Because we’re always contributing something 24 seven, we’re contributing something to the spheres. There’s no way to not be contributing, because we’re creative beings, we’re always creating, with our words, with our thoughts with our days, we’re creating, and we’re putting this energy into these. So every I, it helps me to think that I’m helping a teammate, and I’m helping my team to become more aligned with those spheres of love, and kindness and forgiveness, every time I do it, I give it to them. And I’m also everything in those spheres are is available for other people to pull from. Every time you heal from a terrible trauma or heal from a grudge or heal from an anger. All that healing is put into the spheres and then people who need healing can pull from it. You know, it’s like a body of water that you drink from, and you pour into all the time and it’s there for everybody else. So it helps me work harder. It helps me work harder, because I know it’s being given to others.

Brian Smith 32:13
Yeah, that’s amazing to me. And and it’s funny, as we’re having this conversation I keep I’m reminded how much these books have influenced me because I like I said, I’ve read them over and over again. But that vibrational spheres thing is really important. We I think we tend to think of ourselves. So individualistically I’m responsible for my own actions. It’s my life. What am I here to learn, you know, things like that. But you know, you talk about the spheres, it just happened to me just this morning, I mean, someone sets up and that really triggered a lot of angry me. And I was like, you know, and I was like I wanted to react. And so I just went into my bedroom. And I was like, I’m just gonna meditate. And I just I let it go. And I just went to a different place. Because I decided not to tap into that into that anger, and to try to get back at that person who had done that thing to me. So that that concept of being able to say, No, I’m not going to tap into that. I’m going to tap into this instead. It’s I think, a very important thing for Yeah.

Frances Key 33:12
Yeah. I mean, it’s a choice. It, I was telling somebody the other day in my family who was really, really angry about something and I said, you know, you can just play this out all the way on the anger route. Or you can reframe it. I said, think of it as a wild stallion, riding up to you snorting and following and naming and you can either observe that, or you can jump on this back and take off with him, you know, this wild has, we really, really have the opportunity to choose and it It’s incredible how strong and empowered you feel when you do what you did this morning. I mean, you took control. You had to feel very powerful. To say I’m going to choose this. I’m going to meditate. I’m going to connect with a different vibrational sphere. I mean, that’s the ultimate power. There’s a chapter called who’s in charge here. Do you remember that one?

Brian Smith 34:22
Yes, I do.

Frances Key 34:24
Yeah. And you know, in the Bible, it talks about Satan get behind me they have that line from Jesus, Satan get behind me. And it’s sort of parallel on that. So we want to lead with the soul. So we say to our body that might be lazy or might, who knows when to get drunk? We say to our emotions that might want to just go off on a ranch or rage. We say to our body and our emotions and our mind. wants to carry on with all kinds of thoughts that are only going to take us to the spiral downward would know it, you know, we have to say get behind me. I appreciate you body for what you offer, but I the soul, I am in charge get behind me. I appreciate you emotions. But you will serve me. I am the soul and you will serve me. Yeah. And the same thing to the mind. Right? So what you did this morning is you did that. He said, I’m leading with the soul. And you guys get behind me. I’m in charge here. I mean, we this is this is how we spare ourselves and so many other people. Pain and judgment. Because the judgment is like sticky glue. It sticks us to those situations and those people that that we are condemning the very ones we’re condemning. We’re sticking ourselves to them. Quite literally.

Brian Smith 36:07
Right, right. Yeah. So you, you told me before you start Yes, passages highlighted that you wanted to bring out to help people specifically. I have a lot of listeners like myself who have had children transition. And it’s a difficult thing. And you already talked about one of those things, right? We’re still with our children. And that helps me tremendously to think of my daughter, you know, of still being with her and her still being with me that she could still communicate with me and I could communicate with her a certain amount. But you and your mother still have, you know, a great relationship. So what else would you like to share with us as far as that goes?

Frances Key 36:46
Um, I feel like a kind of talked about a lot of it, but I’m gonna I will turn here and see where I’m lead. There’s a chapter called reciprocal influences, okay. We often have this thought and attend book for a lot too. We have this thought that

I’m quote down here, and I’m switching up right. And they’re up there and they can’t reach down here. But it says you are not only calling out for upliftment, not only reaching out with a yearning, not only seeking to become more useful and enlightened, you are making an offering, we are not only assisting you, you are assisting us, we are all partners in the plan, working from different locations, but with one vision, our influence upon one another is reciprocal. When you when you commune with us in any form, and these forms are endless music, writing, dance, meditation, prayer, laughter, contemplation, appreciation, so much more. When you commune with us in any form, then you are giving as well as receiving. When errors are made. We all learn. Yeah, there’s no condemnation, condemnation of an error. That’s so important. Please understand this is a two way creation, a two way mission a two way flow, which links up with other teams to form a zillion way creation, mission and flow. They, they can’t do say Do it all for us, just because they may have a higher perspective, like when you’re in Lookout Tower, you can look down and go. Watch out over there. I see that right, because the person on the ground can’t quite see it. So we want to keep our, our intuition open to our loved ones who have passed and to our team, to our teammates, because they have this big broad perspective, and they can guide us. And a big part of being guided. Is, is I want to say listening. But listening because we’re being flexible. If we are rigid in it, it’s got to be this way. I’ve got to do it this way. That person has to do this for me in this way this has to happen. We’re not we’re not being open to the many, many, many possibilities and the many ways things can be done. Yeah. So when we listen Let’s be flexible. Let’s be willing to even imagine we lose completely. Or we give out, like that intense call. Maybe that that rigidness is keeping us from what? I hope I’m saying that right? We’ve got to have some detachment. Yeah, all these things and situations and circumstances in our life. Sure, we have detachment,

Brian Smith 40:35
we have a preferred outcome, but it’s from a limited perspective. And I think it’s a matter of having the trust that the higher good will be done, even if it’s not what we want, in terms of where we are right now. And that’s how it is for me, you know, I’ve had to accept things that don’t seem like they fit into my plan for my ego, for my, my body’s perspective. But I have to trust that the higher good is being done. I really loved the way you described the team because, again, I think this is important thing for me. I’ve heard people say, Oh, we’ve got we’ve got guides, we’ve got angels, and they’re there, they’ve got this super, you know, high perspective, and they’re just there to serve us as we’re here down, you know, doing doing our thing. And it’s really, I love the way you talk, it’s reciprocal, it’s two ways, what I’m doing is actually benefiting them as well. And they’re the same as I am that just happened to be in a different place right now. And at some point, will, will switch and will be, you know, in the high point, and they’ll be down here in the trenches.

Unknown Speaker 41:35
That’s right.

Frances Key 41:38
Yes, and we help them by, we help them when we lift ourselves up, we help them when we laugh, we help them and we feel joy again, we help them when we they can feel those kinds of things from us. Yeah, it’s a real gift, just like it would be. I mean, I was told to put ourselves in their shoes. If we had this, if we had departed the body just now think of your spouse, your other children, your friends, your close, whoever is important in your life, what would you what would help you the most from them, it would be to see them. Take what you had planted in them, Take what you had given, and go forth with it, carry the torch carry the torch. And that’s what I have marked here. If I can find it, is about carrying the torch. There’s so much we can do when somebody leaves to build. Because we’re all building upon each other. We’re all standing on the shoulders of everybody that ever went before in history. I’m talking eons of time, right when people get real cocky and think, oh, wow, I’ve done this. I’ve done that. until until this was invented, we couldn’t do this. Now until those roads were paved. We couldn’t drive to to connect with so many of the things we think we’re doing, we’re built on so many people. We shouldn’t get too egotistical about it. You know. It says here about carrying the torch. Having trouble finding exactly what it is, but it’s important. 44

had it I’m sorry. Okay, here it is. If a teammate dies without completing a portion of his or her mission, you can fulfill it for them if your commitment is great enough to carry you through. This is the impetus behind the drive to do something in memory of someone, whether it’s establishing a foundation in their name, or fulfilling a dream that person had but never got to live. If someone transitions to the other side and recognize it’s something important they had intended to accomplish didn’t, their yearning to make it right, it’s great. From their higher perspective, they survey the situation and assess which of their teammates might be in a position to complete the work. If they sense that you are willing and able, they might reach out to you in an effort to impinge a vision of this possibility on your mind. So

Brian Smith 45:04
yeah, I could really relate to that. And it’s interesting cuz I do I talk to a lot of parents and we feel like our children have left us with the with the mission. Something for us to go forward with and and what you said earlier about grief and about what the other person on the other side once for us I think is extremely important as well, because again, when when when your child drought passes before you sometimes we don’t feel like being here. And we are we are like, I’m going to be sad for the rest of my life. This is just you know, this is it. I’m done. I remember, right. I remember the moment that Shana passed, you know, it was total hospital she had passed, I thought, That’s it, my life is over, you know, it’ll never be the same. And it won’t be the same. But it doesn’t mean that your life is over, over. And it and it would not be fair, they would not want us to just lay down and give up. You know, we that’s not what we’re here to do. And so the people that are here behind them, this is what I love about these books is like, I’m not just living for myself, I’m living for the other people that are here physically with me, I’m here for the people that have gone ahead of me, for the people that I don’t even remember that I’ve lived other lifetimes with before. So it’s not about me. It’s about it’s about us. It’s about we. And I think that’s a very powerful thing, at least for me, in terms of lifting me out of what I was going through.

Frances Key 46:28
Right, right. And now we’re going to that our loved one wanted to be here. What, even if they, before they had wanted, we we do have the gift of life. I know clearly, three years ago, I was shown under dream that I was going to die and protested. I really did. And it’s a long story. So I’m not going to tell it now. But the series of events occurred. And I saw I had a vision of these angels on the porch of a of a church when I was driving by and I paused just enough to look because I couldn’t believe my eyes. And in that instant, I didn’t have the accident. The I slowed down enough where the person missed me by a hair and they would have come right through the driver’s side. Wow. So I realized from the two dreams I’d had that I was going to die. And then the second one where I was protesting, I didn’t want to die. And I had a list of things on a piece of paper, I was arguing my case that I had to finish. Yeah, and then then this event occurred Two weeks later, I realized I really am here. Because for some reason, I, I we figured out that I should stay for a while. So this was only a few years ago, and I know some of the things that were on the list, but I don’t remember all of them. So I’ve been steadily doing these things. And I’m wondering, you know, I mean, how many more on the list? I don’t know. Yeah, but I have the gift of life. Yeah, and I don’t want to to lie down in Yeah. And and and not fulfill it and not see it through. They would want those that I’ve have gone on before me, they would want me to to fill it and when I go back and I joined them again I want to come back to this conference with some concrete accomplishments and and wisdom because it is the thing so this is the money or that but success are the things that we get or do but it is the wisdom we gain and we give to others gain we share began with share with humility that is what we go back with there’s a chapter called naked where my mother describes how what it was like for her to die and how you leave naked he leaves become naked you leave naked and you have only this is what you do. You take all the love that you have received, truly received from others with you. Without strings attached, true love that you’ve received and all the love you’ve given unconditionally. The strings not attached. That’s what you take with you.

Unknown Speaker 49:48
That’s it.

Brian Smith 49:49
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know you

Frances Key 49:53
do have this life. We have it and we can offer it to our left one.

Brian Smith 50:02
Yeah, yeah. And I, that’s the way I try to think of it now. And the way I look at it is, you know, first of all, it’s not very long. Once we, once we realize that we are a soul, and we you know, this is this is just a very short period of time. And we’re, none of us has to be here forever. So while we’re here, we need to make the most of it. And I know my daughter very well, I know that if I don’t, that she’s gonna give me a hard time. So she’s my motivation. That’s why she’s always in my background when I do these podcasts, because she’s always over my shoulder reminded me this is this is our deal. This we signed up for you agreed to do this. And you know, you thought you can handle it. So let’s see what you know what happens?

Frances Key 50:46
Well, and we never want to minimize the pain that that we, we go through, I just helped someone write a memoir. And when she’s ready to release it, I hope it may be somebody you’d like to interview. We have written this book together. And it is about what she has gone through in her son being shot. And Wow, she’s learned Beautiful, beautiful insights and things that she’s but but it really outlines the pain. Yeah, and I think that’s very important to acknowledge this. Not not to brush it aside. It truly is. And no one is gonna still see me it looks like there’s a little glitch here.

Brian Smith 51:43
No, you’re back.

Unknown Speaker 51:46
Yeah, okay. Okay. You

Brian Smith 51:48
said Frank is really, really important. The pain is very real. And I hear people what I call spiritual bypassing. And they’ll say, well, it’s all okay, we don’t need to feel any human emotions. And I never ever advocate that I say, feel all the feelings. That’s why we’re here too. We’re here to feel those feelings away. And we are going to feel lost and our bodies are going to miss them. But we’re both human and spirit at the same time. And we have to learn to make that shift before that overwhelms us and overtakes us and we get stuck down here. Think Yes, it’s all over. So we need to be able to learn to, to live here, and to deal with the things of this earth and to enjoy our lives and embrace them. But also, when we get too stuck here, down here to make that shift and just say, it’s all gonna be okay, it’s all okay, even right now. I could choose how I react to this. I may not like the situation, but I could choose how I respond.

Frances Key 52:41
Yeah. Yeah. Um, there’s more here about I’m going to read a little more, I feel like I’m having a little problem with my phone. So if it if it if something goes wrong, can we pick up in a few minutes if I have, I think I’m running low on charge to be honest, because Okay, I’m using my phone. But anyway, I hope people cut that part out if it if it’s in the middle of our it says here. Becoming truly aware that your life was pre planned with your team, around spiritual agreements, will refine your sense of the legacy, the legacy you’re creating. Now, I want to say about that, that we do not that we come here with general goals and general ideal ideas, and we adjust them as we go along. It’s not all written in stone can’t change it. And all the things that happen are not always pre planned. So there isn’t always the intention, of a certain event occurring a certain way. Many things can occur to influence that but from my perspective, on the other side, this being stated by my mother, I can see how when the soul departs the body, it leaves behind a trail of influence. But it’s its streets through the sky. This train contains the quality of

the earth, which can range from minimal to digital vibratory after death, and they’re clearly visible to the departed, so and teammates. So it’s it’s throughout the book Someone can live five minutes and have been incredible live 100 years and has made very little contribution to others. The value of a life is not determined by its length. And it’s certainly not determined by my thought just went away. I can’t I can’t finish it that sentence. But it isn’t always the big great things that have impacted the world. Yeah, tiny, small moments. Can can be could be an offering into that vibrational sphere of love. The tiniest moment can have great impact and have great energy that that is residual that stays here. It has lingering power, it stays with people.

Brian Smith 56:01
Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s, that’s so profound. Because you know, we do tend to think we measure life by the length, you know, how long? How long can I be here? How long, but when people have near death experiences, one of the lessons I’ve learned from studying those is that it’s usually the small things that they really pick up on in their life reviews. It’s the it’s the smiling at a stranger, it’s the you know, it’s letting someone go in front of you. It’s it’s asking someone how they’re doing. I recently was talking with a young lady who her mother passed away and she’s walking down the street. And she’s just sobbing and a stranger stops her and asked her, you know, you Okay, and she says, Yes, I am the stranger. There’s no really Are you okay? Miss struck up a conversation. And it turns out this person had her mother had passed away also when she was young, and they had this conversation ended up changing this other woman’s life. And it was because a stranger stopped on the street and said, Are you okay? And I, and I imagined when that woman has her life review, she’s going to have an idea of how big of an impact that moment had on that young girl.

Frances Key 57:07
That’s right. And we’re told that we can have teammates that activate our spiritual DNA, by a brief encountering us briefly in our life. Mm hmm. Just like our physical DNA gets activated, like as you form from an embryo, into a child into a human being, certain things have to happen along the way to activate certain parts of the DNA to trigger this, create this organ make this happen, this hormone has to be secreted and so forth. So and then all throughout our life, people that we encounter, activate latent talents, or hidden abilities. So emotionally, spiritually, this happens to where we encounter a teammate, who was there for that purpose. And we can even encounter another aspect of our own selves, that is associated, because there may be certain aspects of your soul that are associated with Brian, but other aspects may be associated with a totally different person that is right here on this earth, and you may encounter yourself a part of you can reach out and help another part of you.

Brian Smith 58:24
Yeah, but that’s a really deep concept. And that’s, that’s one thing. I haven’t read the book over and over again, because it gets it gets really complicated. There are different aspects of myself that could be another bodies, we are all part of a team then in some one of the books you’ve talked about leads so we are we’re in teams and the teams around teams that form you know, these leads. So

Frances Key 58:46
leads are part of I think it’s legions, legions, and then but but in that part where it tells all that it Tim beyond the team, it’s saying, Don’t get caught up in the terminology that these are, these are words given to us so our human brain can get it all. But really, this team belonging to the league’s belonging to the legions and on and on and on, it’s because everything is one, right, because ultimately, you know, for our own purposes here, just like we talked about cells in the body, that the body is one, right for our own purposes, these teams exist for our our functioning in this way, right Really? Can’t go far enough out. It’s all one. So one.

Brian Smith 59:38
Yeah, exactly. I think the body analogy is a really good one because even we look at people on other teams, they’re not they’re not competitive with us. They’re just different parts of the body.

Frances Key 59:50
Yes, with different purposes and gifts. And and even in this lifetime, if you have always thought gosh, I wish I could go do so and so, across, over in India, I wish I could go, I used to be this way, no joke. I wish I could just go, you know, serve the poor in India. But I have four daughters here at home, you know, I’m not leaving to go serve the poor. Actually, it can be that part of my team. It’s doing that work, or even another aspect of me it’s doing that work. And that’s why I’m drawn to that. I’m drawn to that. Right? I don’t have to go do it. I need to do what’s before me. Yes, we bloom where we’re planted, and we serve where we are. Now, we might get drawn to do some, something across the world. I’m not saying that won’t happen. But I’m just saying, that’s where some of those feelings come from. Or could be another life that we remember doing that. But but we don’t want to neglect our responsibilities, you know, that we have before us?

Brian Smith 1:00:56
Yes, I Well, we would you said I use that all the time. I tell people you have to grow where your planet you know, we are we are we could you can do what you can do here. You don’t have to go across the world and serve the poor. There’s something that you can do right where you are, whether it’s it could be being a mother to your four daughters. People ask me like, what’s my life purpose on like, being a mother is an extremely important life purpose. Don’t ever, you know, sell short where you are right now. And the people are just around you. You know, serve them and grow yourself and you will benefit your team and, and once we cross back over, I believe we pick up all those other experiences that we didn’t have were physically in the body. We just we become reconnected with us.

Frances Key 1:01:46
Instead, okay,

Brian Smith 1:01:47
yeah, we’re having a little technical depth about Celtic. We’re coming to the end so we can push through.

Frances Key 1:01:52
Yeah. Okay. I’m going to send you I’m going to email you a poem that maybe could put up on the screen at the end. Sure. Or share with people called carry carry your torch, which I wrote, I wrote for the young man who was killed in the home invasion. And I think it could mean a lot to, to your people, to your listeners.

Brian Smith 1:02:17
Yeah. Be glad to do that.

Frances Key 1:02:20
Okay, well, I feel like I want to, I want to I want to mention something about suicide. Okay, I feel drawn to mentioned suicide, because we have had many lives, and we’ve had many deaths. And we do not define a person’s life by the way they died. That’s very important to remember, whether there’s illness, accident, suicide. If we’ve had many lives, we may also have had experiences of suicide ourselves. And there are some people who live their whole lives and never live fully. And then there are some people who live 25 years and have the richness of life and growth far beyond what that person lived who lived a long life. Yes, absolutely. So it’s so important not to define a person’s the value of a person or their life, by the way they

Unknown Speaker 1:03:18

Brian Smith 1:03:20
Yeah, I think that’s extremely, extremely important. Because I don’t think it matters, you know, how we how we transition, we all transition at some point, and I love what you just said. And I was I talked to a lot of parents again, who parent whose children have passed early. And it’s interesting, because it seems like a lot of times those children that concentrated I call it concentrated times with their parents, they seem to value that time more, a lot of them not all of them, of course, but I was talking to a guy who happened to you know, he retired early so you could spend time with his son, having no idea that just seven years later his son which was going to transition, but looking back on it now it’s like I just had such a great time with him being home when he came home from school and doing all these things I wouldn’t have been able to do otherwise. My daughter we homeschooled Shana for eight years, about eight years. Yeah, she went to school for like, just a year, just two years to public school. Well, you homeschooled her. And I worked from home, my wife worked from home. So we just had such a great, you know, in those 15 years that she was here. I feel like we have as much time as some people would have had in 45 or 50 years with their kids. So it’s not a matter of the length of time it’s it’s what you put into it. Yes,

Frances Key 1:04:32
you talk again. I do want to say that if people if people do read the books and have questions, they can email me that their questions. And if they want to meet with me, by this way, zoom or Skype or something to let me know. Yeah. I’d be happy to to help them explore some of these concepts.

Brian Smith 1:04:56
I’ll put your put your email address in the show notes so people can consideration up there. I want to thank you, Frankie for doing this. It’s really been. Because I’ve been wanting to do this for a long time. I cannot say enough good things about the books. Because I’ve read them multiple times. I thought people might feel like I’m pushing them. But I really am. I really am a big fan of the books in the work you and your mother have done together. So I appreciate it very much.

Frances Key 1:05:26
She has her books have have there’s about 100 insights in the four books and they’ve helped 1000s of people. And I’m one of them. Yeah, that changed my life that changed me in my essence. I can’t even put into words how much how much this information has changed me as a human being for the better, had a lot of growing to do. I had a lot of anger and things like that to release. And they blessed me. Oh, yeah, that’s another story. That they blessed me. Yeah, they healed me. They healed me.

Brian Smith 1:06:09
Yeah. Well, I appreciate you should do the same. This Yeah, well, I’m sure they have and they will and I will do everything I can to make sure everybody that I know reads the books. So again, Frankie, thank you for being here this afternoon and have a great rest of your day.

Frances Key 1:06:27
Thank you so much. I enjoyed it greatly.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

In this interview with Stephen Weber and his partner Katherine Plant, we discuss the accident that led to his life-altering Near-Death Experience. As happens with many Near-Death Experiences, Stephen is a different person now than he was before his experience.

Stephen Weber, a Technology Project Manager, and Katherine Plant, a childcare worker, and reiki practitioner, live in Northport, Long Island, New York.

After an accident left Stephen, a loving father in a coma, on the verge of life and death, he traveled to another place. On the outside, he was in a hospital bed; but, on the inside, he was in a place he calls, “The Place Between Here and There.” It was a place where time did not exist; where people were spirits; and where he learned the wisdom of the universe. This book details his journey to this wondrous place, then back to Earth, where he must rehabilitate from grave injuries, only to then experience the worst tragedy a parent can imagine- the passing of his son.

ℹ️ https://www.betweenhereandthere.org





Brian Smith 0:01
Hey everybody, this is Brian Smith. I’m back with another episode of grief to growth. And I’ve got with me today Steve Weber and his partner, Kathy plant. And Steve and Kathy are the co authors of the book, the place between here and now. And here and there, I should say here there, and I’m going to read a short bio or short introduction, then we’re just going to have a conversation about their experiences. Steven Weber is a technology project manager and Katherine plan is a childcare worker and Reiki practitioner, and they live in North Pointe Long Island, New York with their precious pups Mary’s, a Rottweiler and banden and Australian shepherd. They both have 22 year old daughters at attend university in Connecticut. Steven Kathy has successful workshops in the place between here and there, which is their book, as I said earlier, accompanied by music and meditation. in their spare time, they enjoy hiking and many beautiful parks in Long Island, doing yoga, running and cooking. They also enjoy sharing their spiritual enthusiasm by helping curtains, full moon ceremonies, sound healings and guided meditations with friends, Steven Kathy love to hear from the readers and are thrilled to answer all correspondence. So after this, I’ll give information on how you can contact them. So with that, I want to welcome you to grief to grow Steve and Kathy,

Stephen Weber 1:10
thanks so much. I really appreciate the sharing your time and your audience with us. And thank you. Yeah,

Brian Smith 1:18
well, it’s great to have you here. I know just a little bit about your story. So I want to give you a chance to start wherever you like. And tell me about about what how the book came about.

Stephen Weber 1:28
Man well is that is that I’ve been a Harley rider all my life. But you know, from a very young age, I was riding motorcycles and been a part of my life. And I was driving out east on Eastern Long Island. We live in Long Island. And the eastern is more of a rural community. So I would occasionally drive out there have some barbecue and drive back Saturday, a Sunday afternoon. And the traffic was backed up from miles, people were driving on the shoulder to make make a right hand turn in the road ahead. And very foolishly I did the same thing. And and when I got to the intersection, a truck coming the opposite direction, made a left hand turn and T boned me on my motorcycle. And the lights went out. I mean, that was I was I was out the next things I knew is that I was flying through the air and a helicopter to to a trauma center. I recognized it from the air right away was Stony Brook Hospital, one of the premier trauma centers in the United States. I just happened dumb luck that I live nearby. And, and the helicopter could land nearby because there was a school is a rural area. And, and wow, they i was i was gravely injured, my spine was broken. I had grave internal injuries, they were immediately life threatening that operates several times. My hip was shattered. I it’s so many injuries. It’s like an autopsy report. Yeah, it’s it’s amazing. The things that they did at Stony Brook hospital is just, they did everything right. But it wasn’t just the machines. It was the people as the nurses, it was the caring people really cared. And that’s what I learned later on. That’s what that’s one of the most important lessons you learn in having these types of experiences. And so what and so what I lay in the hospital for, for three weeks in a coma, and that’s the way I appeared to the rest of the world. But, but in myself, I was in a place a place I call the place between here and there. And the overall is it’s kind of like purgatory the way I’m a Catholic and the way they kind of taught us what purgatory was. But it’s a it’s not a place of punishment. It’s a place of knowledge and enlightenment, and preparing you for for completing your journey into spirit. And it was there. I was in this place between here and there. And I was being prepared for the afterlife. And that’s the start of a story. Yeah.

Brian Smith 4:03
And when did this happen, Steve?

Stephen Weber 4:04
This happened in I guess 2016 four years ago. Oh, wow. Okay, so

Brian Smith 4:09
this is pretty recent. Okay.

Stephen Weber 4:11
Yeah. Yeah, it’s, it was it was, you know, and so many levels, it’s that you would think that it was a terrible thing that happened to me. But by far, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. I wouldn’t go back and change a moment of it. But it took me a long time to realize it on when I say I was in a place between here and there is that is that it was centered on three important scenes that are that were taken from my life where I learned very important lessons, and I was actually tested on that knowledge. The first place was a work like setting me here was on this is where I was taught what I call the wizard The language of the universe are what I later learned to be synching with the Akashic Record. That means sharing all of your knowledge with the all that is, and downloading all the wisdom of the universe, that that will help you trance make this transit into spirit. The next thing that happened to me is I had a light review. And I reviewed my entire life from both to back many times, learning each time, and growing spiritually and feeling such a sense of bliss. Each time I reviewed my life, and, and I just saw so many things in my experiences that that really brought me You just just beautiful, beautiful enlightenment. And then finally, I was tested on my knowledge. And this was what was a test that I failed on. And, and this test was to determine whether or not I would continue in spirit or return back to Earth to have continued human incarnations. So that was the whole setting, in, in the place between here and there. And, and one of the first things that so So first, I was taught what out the language of the universe, I was taught certain wisdom that I was going to be using. But it wasn’t that I was in school that somebody sat down and said, okay, Stevie, now it’s time to learn this and blah, blah, blah, no, it wasn’t like that. It was to see things and feel things. So my internal teacher could see these things and learn them. And to help me understand those things. So this is a perfect example of one of the first lessons I learned is that I learned how to see spirit in people, okay. And so the way I was first introduced to this is that I saw people from my life, people who I knew I saw every day, everything looked fine, we’re in a work like setting, then I saw people who I hadn’t seen it 20 and 30 years, and they look just like I remember them, they haven’t changed, although many years have passed. And then as time went on, things started to change, I start to see people who I knew as, as teenagers, I might see them as, as elderly people, or people who I knew as elderly, I might see them as kids, or I might see people, men, as women and women as men, and all different types of nationalities, and, and, and ethnicities. And, and in the end, I was still able to recognize that part about each and every person that is unique to them, regardless of what shape or form they took. And that’s when I realized that I was seeing spirit. That’s what I was being taught. That was the first lesson, the that be able to see spirit.

Brian Smith 8:04
And this was you were taught in the first place, you said you went to the kind of the, where you were going to the Akashic records and doing the Okay,

Stephen Weber 8:11
and so on. And so I that went on for for quite a while on, I was taught different things. Like, for instance, once I could see spirit, and I could feel spirit, all of a sudden, I noticed everything around me had spirit. It wasn’t just people, it was plants, it was animals, everything has had had spirit. And that spirit was all common. And I began to realize that we’re really, we are all connected, we are all connected, we are all part of one consciousness, all of us, very similar to like cells in a body, how each cell has its own life that lives it dies it, it reproduces, you know, it’s, it has its own life, but all those cells together, make up us, and we have a consciousness, all of those cells don’t know of us in our consciousness. And that’s what what we are each of our spirits together, we are all part of the same the whole and that’s the Holy Spirit. And that’s one of another lesson that I learned as part of that consciousness. Some other lessons were, were that, that your experiences are so vital to help you learn and grow. And in the next step, that is where I really learned the value of the of experiences because the first things I learned was the Akashic Records synching with the Akashic records, learning the wisdom of the universe. The next place is that I was went through a life review, and this was a very tough and yet beautiful process, because that what I did is now I had the benefit of having this wisdom from this sinking of the Kaushik record, and secondly, I’ve only lived Through these events throughout my life, so so now I get to be a lawyer. It’s not that I could influence events, but I could see events over and over again, kind of like watching a movie. But there was something different about it. Because now that I could see spirit, every situation that I was in, in my life was really not what I thought, because now I could see why everybody was there. They were for different reasons. And, and there was a physical reason, like maybe we had a fight in the school yard. So everybody from school at the school don’t want wants to watch it. So that might be the physical reason why they’re there. But once I could see spirit, there was a spiritual reason their lesson learned or some something that had a play out within their own life app. And so now I began to realize so many of those experiences that I had, that I thought, Well, one thing really was another thing. And there was so much more to it, because now I could feel what the other people were feeling. And so now, after learning all throughout my life, seen it all over again, I’ve learned so many more things, and I was more blissful at the end than when I started. And one of the first things I’ve learned there is that some of the worst experiences in my life, some of the most heart wrenching things, or some of those experience that brought me the most bliss, when I was doing my life review, ruins, all of a sudden, you have all this stuff hanging over you, you have all this hate and animosity towards yourself, as well as others. Now, all of a sudden, all those things start to make sense, because you start to see other people’s perspectives, and why people are on different paths. And yet, you see things differently. And, and now when I understood those horrible events, and they washed away with the wisdom of the meaning of it, all of a sudden, it was like, Wow, it was beautiful. It really was because that you don’t feel, you know, hate and animosity is something that’s so difficult to carry around with you every day to project that on all of the people most of the time, people you love. And likewise, to be able to receive that from from yourself and for others, all that’s gone. And that brings bliss. And so that life review went on over and over and over and over again. Each time I learned from it, I learned

it was beautiful. I knew it’s gonna be a tough day, every time it started. But by the end, wow, you know, I wasn’t in a rush. But you get addicted to the bliss, because it really is. It’s just wow, it’s a great, great, great, great feeling. And, and that went on for so many times, because the need as long as I kept on learning I kept was in that situation. Very similar to the first place, the first place where I was learning the Kaushik record being synced with the Kaushik record and learning the wisdom of the universe. I stayed there as long as I was learning once I stopped learning, then I did my life review. When I stopped learning from my life review, then I went to the next phase of this, of this beautiful journey. Yeah. And, and that’s a that’s the first place I was in in the place between here and there. Where I shared my wisdom we see and then I did my life reviews.

Brian Smith 13:48
So when you when you transfer it from here to there, was there a feeling of leaving your body? Did you go through any? Or did you just what did you find yourself there? What did you think was going on? Did you know you’re dead?

Stephen Weber 14:02
Oh, no telling it. I had no idea. It was. Everything was so rooted in my life. I didn’t know anything. I didn’t even know. Although, when I was injured, I knew I was in an accident. But when I was here, I didn’t know I was in an accident because there’s nothing wrong with me. I was just like, I I don’t know. It’s just like, why I didn’t think of it. And and it’s not like I forgot it, but it just didn’t occur to me. I don’t know. It’s just like a continuation of my life. Yeah. And I know a lot of people talk about like, walking down or going to a tunnel or, or seeing a light or think things like lamp like that. I didn’t experience any of that. It was I was on my motorcycle. And the next moment I was in work, and I was dealing with the situation then I started to see the spirit and stuff. It was just like one second this. This was the next second. That was it.

Brian Smith 14:57
And was there any perception of time and you said that you went through these things over and over and over again. How did it feel? timewise?

Stephen Weber 15:04
Okay, time is kind of cool there in the sense that there isn’t like a sun rising or sunsetting in that in the way that it does here. And it wasn’t that this clock’s ticking like, like, what is time it’s like water boiling on the stove is I get turned on the key, it takes a while, then it boils out, well, you have appointments in the future is like that there. It’s that the real measure of time is how much you’ve learned, the experiences you’ve gone through, because you could always think back is like, oh, way back when is I thought this. But but then all these things happen. And I experienced these things. And now I’ve grown and now my awareness is here. Wow, I went through a whole lot. That gives you the impression of time gets what has happened to you. If you don’t do anything, which wasn’t the case, I would imagine, it would go so slow, like nothing would happen. It’s like really the, the as much as you learn and grow. That’s where the time brings you.

Brian Smith 16:11
Okay. And as you’re going through, like, for example, the reviews, were there for the guides with you were there, or was it you on your own? How does that work?

Stephen Weber 16:20
Not at this time. But but but no, that comes into play later on? But no, it was all a solitary thing. Okay. Okay, yeah, synching with the record, and the life review, I was being prepared for the next important step. And that was to be tested on my knowledge. And, and so that was the second place I was in. So I was tested on my knowledge, but I didn’t know at the time, anything to do with the test. And this is stuff that after thinking about it, and experiencing certain things that that now I realize it was a test. And but but at the time, I had no idea. I had no idea that I was on the verge of life and death and that I was being transitioned to be in spirit. And I would have been spirit if it wasn’t for all these machines, and the caring, but other than that my body thought I was dying. And so I was being prepared to spirit. And, and so and so that was the first place. Now the second place, I’m being tested. And that’s tested, what I mean is that if you think about the ascension of your spirit, after you pass, is that is that

are you going to continue in spirit, or you’re going to be returned to Earth for another incarnation To learn more, because if it wasn’t for my life experiences, I would have nothing to draw upon in the life review, there would be nothing there. Hmm. So the experiences are everything so so so that’s why we come to earth to have these experiences. I often say down to earth but but I that’s just a bigger speech. And often I’ll talk about days one and I speak about that place is that I really don’t mean days, I was just like the way people talk so on if I want to make that. And so in the in the second place is I was being tested, what I later learn to either I was going to be in spirit, be a spirit guide, or continue my evolution to be with the Ascended Masters and perhaps eventually, with the consciousness of the Creator, but right now is being tested on that. So what else being tested is I had, I was in charge of a group of kids, young adults, and I was there to teach them a task. And, and no matter what I did, they wouldn’t listen to me would feel like I was connecting with them. I really would I would feel it like like, hey, it’s you and me. You know, Come on, guys. Let’s do it. Kind of like coach Steve, you know, you know, it’s just like, I feel like I connect with them. And then they go and they run off. And then then I’d be held accountable for that. And I was just trying, I tried every bit of little manipulating tactics. I know, I tried bribing them. I tried one team against the other team. Like I tried all these little inspirational tactics. I know from sports or from work or from other things, you know, when you’re trying to get a team together, nothing worked. Finally on Finally I was at my wit’s end, I went back to the person who is in charge of me. And I realized as I stood before them, I realized I was looking into my higher self, that that, that my highest self that I was just part of that. And then I felt my higher self awareness. And then all of a sudden, everything my perception of everything changed, as I realized is that is that I wasn’t there to prepare those kids to do a task. That really those were spirits who have yet to have an encounter of human incarnation, and I was there to prepare them for their first human incarnation. That’s what I failed that because that I didn’t see them. As spirits, I was taught how to see spirit. And the first chance I get, I don’t see him as, don’t be kids wouldn’t listen. And then I tried to manipulate them instead of seeing this spirit, and understanding and making that connection. And that is where I fail that, but but eventually I succeeded because that with the help of this wisdom, but I didn’t do it myself. Okay. And, and I think that, that if I did, if I was successful, I think perhaps I would have stayed in spirit for forever or for time, because that it I think, if that was the case, I think I was going to be a spirit guide. That’s what, you know, that was the next step in my spiritual evolution for those who who are in physical incarnation. But but I wasn’t ready because that I didn’t see it. And then, but but there was something very interesting in that place is that is that there was a lady there who was always praying. And I didn’t understand that it because I wasn’t a spiritual person. I kind of looked like prayer it kind of like I did it. Because, you know, we, we pray before we, you know, I did, it wasn’t like, I don’t know. But I was feeling from this lady’s prayers is that I couldn’t hear a prayers, but I felt such a love. And such an energy that it was, it drove me You know, it, you know, in some of the challenges that I was there, I couldn’t hear her words, but our energy through a prayers is that that’s what helped driving me. And that’s something I learned a little bit later on what the significance of that is. And then finally, finally, that was the end of that place. As soon as, as soon as I was successful, and helping the kids transition to their to their next spiritual phase to have the human incarnation. Now, I was at the final place before I eventually returned back to, to my physical state of mind. Okay.

Brian Smith 22:20
Yeah. Okay. So, um, when you were going through this test was, were you aware that it was a test, or?

Stephen Weber 22:29
No, I wasn’t on an even at the end of it. I wasn’t aware of was was a test. I thought I was just doing tasks. And at this time, I mean, you would think that I would think at this point, that that Steve, you’re not in Kansas anymore. Like, like, like I expect, like, no, it just didn’t occur to me. I don’t know why. Yeah. No, it wasn’t until the very end, that that it occurred to me that that something’s going on here. Mm hmm. And it wasn’t until till the very end, and I and that’s, and that’s where we are right now.

Brian Smith 23:03
Yeah. So you were apparently were sent back at some point. So tell me about how that happened.

Stephen Weber 23:09
I’m sorry. I don’t not sure I understand the question.

Brian Smith 23:13
Well, you were you were sent back from that place. You said, you so you’re back here. So how did that tell me how that transition happened?

Stephen Weber 23:21
So true. Okay, so then I was in I live in a town on Long Island. I’m very young, it’s a very small community, but but it’s, it’s an old fashioned community, like everyone knows each other. And at the end of every day, we’ll have the town goes to the water to watch the sunset, we call it the bluff. And, and some people drink coffee, other people like drink out of red solo cups, and stuff and, and they watch the sunset. So so when I was in that place, I had a similar scene that that I did over and over again, with two old friends of mine, Joe and john, they were their old king sparkers that’s the town I live in. And they were in their 80s. And, and we would drink coffee and and watch the sunset at the end of every day when I was there. I used the term day, you know, we talked about just very loosely. And And this went over over and over many times over again. And it wasn’t. And then finally, I thought to myself is Joey and Johnny, Joe and john are both dead. Like, how could they be here? Hmm. You know, and and that was what was it and so it kept on going over and over again, seeing them and watching the sunset. And I want to ask them why they were here. And it was kind of starting to feel like an anxiety for the first time because that I was feeling like something big was going to happen soon. And and as each time I saw that I don’t know why I didn’t want to ask them. I’m thinking in my own mind, you know, I’m just starting to think this I’m not 100% sure, but on, but I’m starting to think because perhaps I was, I was I was very blissful at this point. And perhaps I was concerned, maybe the bliss would stop like, like, it wasn’t allowed. I don’t know, these are all things that that I just don’t know. And I was, it was all in my mind. Nobody said anything. It’s all in though, you know, the universe, according to Steve, you know, I don’t, I don’t know. But, but so. So. So then finally, I felt if I didn’t ask them now, I would never get this opportunity ever again. And so what so I finally asked them what they were doing here. And they said, They’re here to make sure I’m alright.

And that kind of echoed in my mind, because that I didn’t feel like anything was wrong with me. Yeah, you notice I felt fine. But But this whole experience was very odd. And so it was all getting to me at the same time. And, and then, then as we watched, the sunset just got brighter and brighter and brighter. And then when I couldn’t stand it, I closed my eyes. When I opened my eyes again, I was in my hospital room, and my mom was was was there. And she was telling me, that was an awful accident. And, and, and that was me returning back to, to my physical state. But it wasn’t until I started to recover, I couldn’t walk, I was in a very, very, very bad state that, that my spine was broken. I had all these pins and screws in my hip. And, you know, I’ve been out for three, three weeks. I was I was I was pretty beefy guy before. And now I look like Cathy says, A pluck chicken. No, no, I wasn’t too, too good. But then I started to, you know, do my rehabilitation. I had such a drive to get better, that that I’d often feel this energy. And was then I realize, Joe and john Joe broke his neck when he was a kid at the bluff. And he and he had his back views the whole time as he is in his life, and would walk around kind of like Frankenstein. It was a funny guy, you know, he, he made a lot of fun with it as a good soul. And then john, he was a diabetic and he and his leg got all infected. And he died from from that, you know, when he was an old man, older person. Yeah. And I had problems with my back. I had a broken back, and my leg was in pieces. And it wasn’t then I realized that there would have been my spirit guides to help me through going through this process because that I didn’t, I didn’t have them in my ear saying Stevie Come on, or Kaunas TV, you know? No, but I felt their energy. Same way as I felt the energy of the lady praying is that I felt their energy and I felt their wisdom by having a having the same experiences. And that’s what what they meant that that I would, I would I would see you later that that that’s that’s that that’s that they were here to make sure that I was okay. Now Now it made sense. And, but that lady, I remember that lady now. Because Because that lady now I could see spirit and now I’m awake. And I’m starting to come to my senses again. I know who that lady was, huh? It was my dear friend Kathy. Oh, I knew it. This lady right here. My Kathy, my co author is that that we would just friends at that time. But But she was always a little kooky because she would talk about these spirit things sometimes because we were like, moms together like I would stay at home dad. So all my friends were were moms and she was one of my mom friends. And she would and she would sometimes talk about spiritual things. I wasn’t spiritual at all. But I felt her prayers. sigh as soon as I got my wits together, I said I had to, I had to call her I want to talk to her and tell her about my experience. So the first things I did is I I got my phone as soon as I was untied and I texted her and you got my text?

Kathie Plant 29:27
Yes, they did.

Brian Smith 29:28
So Kathy, you were

Kathie Plant 29:30
friends for a while. And then when he had the accident, it was very devastating for me. We were friends about 16 years. So I I did the only thing I could do. I wasn’t next to kin I couldn’t go into the hospital. So I said based on my knowledge of spirit and having lived through my mom’s premature passing and my twin brothers premature passing and learning to communicate with spirit because I needed that connection to stay alive. And knew that where Steve was was a place where, although he wasn’t in his physical self, he was his spiritual self back in our spiritual home. So through through, like my mind, I could connect to him. So I said to him in my head every day, I said, Steve, I need you to come back, everyone needs you to come back. I’m going to pretend that I’m in the hospital room with you because I can’t be in there. I’m holding your hand. And we’re going to pray the St. Jude prayer, which was what was very meaningful to me. Now, this isn’t a religious thing. I mean, this all paths lead to one destination. But this is the saint with whom I resonated. And then I did this every day. And three weeks later, I get a text from him. And he says, Hi, cat, that’s Steve, I’m okay. Wow, thank you for visiting me when I was out if you know what I if you if you know what I mean. And I, I was just like, so excited. And I typed back and I said, You mean, you know, and he said, let’s just say I’ve been to a place where I know that everyone is connected, but that you and I have a connection that goes beyond this earth. And I learned all about life. And I’d like to share that with you. So I went to the hospital the next day. And it was just amazing the things that he learned. And it’s just it makes life blissful. I mean, there’s so much wisdom. Yeah, what people need to know is that there is an eternity to life, there is a continuation of consciousness. So when our loved ones pass, our pets pass, they’re there in spirit, they’re in an eternal home, and we can connect to them. And and that’s just once you get rid of that fear that we’re no longer connected to those and that there is really no death, then you could just relax and know that you will see them again. And and there’s a connection that love never dies, it changes form, but it never dies. love and life are eternal. And that was a very valuable lesson. And it. He’s back and I’m so grateful

Stephen Weber 32:13
most of the times except if I leave my socks on the floor, then

Kathie Plant 32:19
that’s great.

Brian Smith 32:21
Yeah, that is?

Stephen Weber 32:24
Well, it was it was just a very, you know, I definitely it. It was it was definitely a connection that went beyond this world. Yeah. But but for a long time, as I put it aside is that is that I was so wrapped up in trying to get better is that I stopped talking about it. And Kathy didn’t push me on it too much. Because I was convinced that the experience was the drugs they gave me like, like the sedatives or what perhaps I was dreaming, I didn’t think it was real. And the couple of times that I that I shared some parts with Kathy Kathy would get real excited about and tell me how it’s how it’s real. And I would, I would think she was kind of kind of kooky about the whole thing. I just thought it was just a trippy kind of thing.

Unknown Speaker 33:12
I was there. How can it be trippy?

Stephen Weber 33:14
I don’t know. I don’t know.

Brian Smith 33:16
Well, I think that’s that’s really not uncommon for people try to rationalize and when you mentioned the drugs or dream, I mean, a lot of people talk about near death experiences and even even doctors will try to explain it away with lack of oxygen to the brain or the drugs or, you know, stuff like that. But how was the experience? Did it feel because what How did it feel to you when you’re in that experience?

Stephen Weber 33:39
I felt extremely blissful all the time. I felt I didn’t see like, like, people speak up, perhaps seeing divinity and other things is I didn’t see any of that. It was all that but it was a framework around everything is that it was an energy that I felt like love You know, I believe it’s, it’s deeper than then than that. It’s a it’s a love of action and about it’s more than a feeling it’s a it’s a wisdom, like, like love is wise. Because Because it’s like the expression of love is is it’s like the law of attraction. You know, the more you love and the more you put positivity and things around you the more your world changes because that you’re putting out a different vibe. it’s it’s it’s different and that’s what I felt that the idea is as I learned is that is that you built more evolved than and spiritual and, and it was a beauty like I often wondered like, if all this bs about heaven is true, you know, before I had this experience is that I’d be bored. Oh, I’ll be bored. But what am I gonna do? sit around, hang out the clouds all day and play to play harps and stuff like what? What would it be? At least for me This is what this experience was.

Brian Smith 35:02
So early, you said it this was kind of like purgatory. So kind of like an in between place, do you think this is heaven? Or just like a place that leads to heaven? Or how would you? How would you put that,

Stephen Weber 35:13
I would say all the bugs. What I mean by that is that is that I think it’s preparing you to be in spirit. The only reason why I was alive was because that they had these machines that were keeping me alive. And in the past, you wouldn’t have access to this type of medical care, because did they work these miracles even put my leg back together, I could walk now. And, and they work these miracles. And But what’s more than enable you to survive is that my brain wasn’t damaged, like, like, I still have my cognitive abilities. And so and so in the past, that was very rare. I believe that going forward, more people will have these types of experiences, because of these medical procedures and advances and the availability of this type of care. But there’s a doctor, I think his last name is par. Now, I should know that better by now. But he’s a cardiac surgeon over at Stony Brook hospital where they had the surgery for me, and I never met him. But I saw him on a podcast where he was discussing a book. And he was saying that, that the idea of these life saving medical technologies is going to bring more of these types of experiences that people talk about. And really, we are missing a very, very big component as a society, that that we really need to begin to document this, this information. But from a medical standpoint, just as a part of your documenting your history, you know, what did you experience as a part of like, the outpatient procedure? So I thought, you know, I thought that to be, you know, I it made a lot of sense to me that, that it was the machines that kept me going.

Brian Smith 37:05
Yeah, and one of the reasons I asked you that question, I’ve talked to several people who’ve had near death experiences, and my working theory is that it is kind of a place in between and, and a lot of times in near death experience, we’ll hear about a barrier, for example, people say I knew there was a place I couldn’t go beyond there was a there was a wall, there was a gate, there was a river I couldn’t cross or something. So it seems to be like it might be an in between kind of preparatory place. And maybe even as you said, maybe a place of decision. And I’ve never quite heard it put the way you did. It’s kind of like, why to come back to this physical life. I come back reincarnated. Or maybe I move forward to being a spirit guide or something. It’s first time I’ve heard someone put it that way.

Unknown Speaker 37:47

Stephen Weber 37:51
it took a long time to to adjust to that. Mm hmm. Like I wasn’t a spiritual person at all. And Kathy had a lot to do with it. And then and then well, is that is that I was well into my rehabilitation. You know, Kathy was was there all the time and, and she was like Sergeant slaughter and Mother Teresa, you know, sometimes she’d beat on me Other times, she would just be kind and supportive. And I had Joey and john as my speed. I felt their energy life was moving on. I was starting to feel really good about things then. And then my 20 year old son died of a drug overdose. Sorry, I went overdose now. This this kid was the light of my life. I was a stay at home dad. I mean that that’s how I knew Kathy and all the other moms and, and he was a musician. He was he played Jimi Hendrix, like Jimi Hendrix, he played Mozart like Mozart on the on the, on the piano, and he and he played the saxophone, like Dizzy Gillespie played the song horn. He was great. And he was a championship wrestler, New York State Champion. He was on a scholarship, he was just, you know, all these wonderful things. And it just happened so fast, you know, it just, it was devastating. I just I got into this funk and I just couldn’t shake it. And and Kathy, I’d go on these walks with with with Kathy and I really wouldn’t talk and I just like being in her presence, and I felt a certain energy. And, and I began to think about things a little bit more about about the place between here and there. And I wasn’t sharing it a lot with her but, but it was just wow.

Brian Smith 39:40
So when I’m sorry. What did I interrupt you? When did this happen?

Stephen Weber 39:43
This happened. The accident was in 2015. And I lost my son in 2016.

Brian Smith 39:50
Okay, so you were you were probably still recovering everything physically at that point?

Stephen Weber 39:53
Yes, yes, I was still in Kathy was helping me all along the way through experience. And yeah, it was just, it was it was, it was just such a difficult experience is, you know, I kept on thinking to myself, Was it me? You know? No, how did I screw up? You know, I was a biker, you know, I’d like to drink beer in my my Holly eat hot wings and, and stuff but I was fully involved parents I mean, I was my, my my son and my daughter would often tell me why can’t I be do parent things and leave them alone You know, you know like I was always in their hair, you know as always involved and and then to miss out on the weddings and birthdays and the grandchildren. And then then did I bring this about like, like, you have all these thoughts of deep regret and blame and everything else. And then and then one day when I was working through this, Kathy turns around and says Nick, this my son’s name is that contact turns around and says, Did they ever try to contact you from spirit? Hmm. I thought this woman was freaking nuts. I really did. Is that is that I’m sitting in grieving. And I’m looking to it and she was really really my best friends. You know? Really? No, although is a guy and girl You know, it’s tough to win all your friends are women and moms and stuff. You know, it’s tough to imagine in this world but but but but no, no, she was my dear friend. But how to say this, I almost felt I was almost off piste it because it didn’t seem real, like oh, my son’s going to talk to me now. And and she backed off right away. And so but but I didn’t say a lot. I just kind of went went with the flow because I didn’t want to, you know, I didn’t want to be that way. Yeah. And so um, but but the next thing is I know is she’s dragging me around to all these trails, we go on, she’s leaving little statues of St. Teresa. And we’re and we’re writing stones of prayers, we’re putting them down. And then we’re, we’re leaving the pen there. So so the next day, we would come back to be more prayers that it was almost like we’d go to this shrine this day, this shrine the next day. And each day, there were more, there were more prayer stones that and that was the first time that I started to really feel some relief from from the grief that I was experiencing. Because that all of a sudden is like that old sting song where he talks about the message in the bottle, and, and all the bottles showing up on the shore. Like, like, like, you’re not alone in this world. Everyone has problems. And everyone has heartbreak and just knowing like I was all of a sudden, I started to feel that connection, again, that I felt in the place between here and there that all of a sudden, like I was starting to feel that spirit. But but but I really, you know, I really didn’t share it too much with with with Kathy occasionally, because it was like giving red meat to a dog you know, you know, she she was already having me praying and doing all this stuff. And then then we start to see the signs and, and Kathy

Kathie Plant 43:08
Well, he was very hesitant to believe me that there was an ability to communicate with spirit, which was made me just shocked because we communicated when he was in spirit.

Brian Smith 43:18

Kathie Plant 43:20
see this now, but it was my magic. He was just living in his lower chakras, his ego, which, you know, everyone does.

Unknown Speaker 43:28
Some more than others.

Kathie Plant 43:30
So when I started doing what I do best again, which is the praying and trying to connect and seeing all these signs around us that I felt next presence. You know, we were finding roses everywhere we were going and I’m like Steve, does this mean something you don’t just find roses would be roses on a trail roses at the beach roses everywhere. And it was the anniversary of his son’s passing. And I said, you know, he’s contacting us. And he was just like, You are crazy. And I knew I wasn’t. Yeah. So it wasn’t until his cousin went to visit a very well known local psychic and the psychic when she went to go contact her grandmother, but Nick was like, I’m taking this opportunity to go through the psychic to give a message. And he said, um, she said to the site to my to his cousin, there’s a Nic that’s coming through and he Do you know who that his and his cousin was like, of course I know who it is. Yeah, let him come through. And she said Nick is saying that he has a synchronicity with St. Teresa and he’s sending the roses. Okay, and and I thought like, Oh, I had Steve now once he has this he’s gonna be like so excited. And he still didn’t he still chalked it up to Well, it’s a coincidence.

Stephen Weber 44:53
And I know I know it sounds kind of you know, in hindsight, it sounds like I should have known like, like, I should have known In that place, but but it just it was too hokey pokey for me, you know, turns with but things. I’m a computer guy. So two plus two equals four. Yeah. But well,

Brian Smith 45:11
I’m gonna ask you out,

Kathie Plant 45:13
I just have to say one thing when we made a found out and this was this was the aha moments was that Nick and St. Teresa shared a birthday. They both were born on January 2, and Nick passed on the day that St. Teresa was canonized, which is may 17. So when I found that out, and I just excitedly brought that information to Steve and I was like Steve, you know, he said he has a synchronous that he was saying, Teresa, he said, He’s sending the roses to let you know that he’s okay. And these, those are the synchronicities the birthday and the passing day. And then he was like, well, maybe there is something to this. So he finally was starting to see the connection. And once that aha moment happened, and he opened his awareness to all of that, okay, then the signs started coming left and right i mean we ever since then he is just a sign machines, like we are connecting with this loved one that one love this saying that say that Angel St. Michael, just, there’s just this magic that once you open that spiritual door, and you allow that beauty, that connection, I mean, we did the veil gets thinner. When you make that realization, then you get signed suddenly from your loved ones, but you get signs on how to live your life. Like what, what to do, you’re struggling with whether you should go down this road of this road, and you’ll see left written somewhere and you know, to go left, I mean, it just, it’s just such a beautiful thing. When you open that spiritual dawn, once he did that, then life just became better. He knew Nick was okay. He knew that there was a continuation of life. And then there was just magic. I mean, life has been magical ever since

Stephen Weber 47:05
it was it was really is that the aha moment was an aha moment for opening the doors to think about it a little bit more as that. And it wasn’t like, like just an epiphany. It was a process now, like Kathy says, It’s once I start to think about it. And then I started to think that maybe Nick is in the place where I was. And he was feeling the things that I was feeling that that place is real. And Nick is feeling those things that he’s alright, he’s happy. He’s learning he’s growing. He’s realizing his, his true self, his higher self in this world in this universe. And, and that brought me peace. And now, that understanding actually brought my son back to me because that anytime I thought of my son, up until that point, I thought of him passing, especially dying of a heroin overdose, and just me not knowing and my responsibility and everything else is that all of a sudden, is that is that no, no, he’s okay. You know, what, we’re all going to be okay, we’re all going to be together. And this isn’t the end, and that he’s feeling that bliss. And now I got him back. Because now I don’t think about the circumstances of his death. I think about all the happy times and him holding the trophies over his head or in playing the saxophone. And people like stopping in the street and looking at him with just all these things I had, I got that back, like giving up the grief, because the grief sub process, at least for me, really is a process. But it wasn’t until I was able to give that up that I got the memory of my son back. And that’s what I wanted. Second, I want my son back number one, but if not, that is I want the happiness when I thought of him back, and soon as I was able to understand that life is eternal, that that place is real, and that he’s going on to his beautiful, his beautiful, higher self and the rest of the spiritual existence. That that. Wow. It’s okay. Yeah.

Brian Smith 49:18
So it sounds to me that so you had this experience. And you up until your next passing? Maybe even you didn’t think it was real, right? You didn’t really put together the meaning to it. You just did you just chalk it up to a dream or hallucination or? Well,

Stephen Weber 49:36
both of those things. Really, I was so preoccupied with getting better. Yeah. That was like, Ah, you know, I woke up every morning and pain. I was excited because I it was a great opportunity for improvement. I would say that all the time. The Kathy and I started to go to yoga. And every time I couldn’t do something, I’d be like, Wow, what a great opportunity for improvement. And that’s kind of like that. Like the attitude I think I felt from my spirit guides Jolyon. And that, and that I was just so wrapped up in it. It wasn’t until, you know, really losing my son that it really caused me to really dig down deep. And really, like, I had to face it. I was kind of like, put it out of my mind. And Kathy wasn’t pushing it on me pushing me too much on it. But, but it was still there. And like, in my own mind is a lot of times when I would say little things to Kathy, I would, I would end it with all the universe, according to Steve Yeah, you know, is it what I didn’t talk about it as a place as I talked about, I made fun of myself all the time about it. But after a while, there was little bits of knowledge in there that kind of like, took me by surprise, like, Did I just say that? Like, it was, it was weird. It was. I mean, like, like, a lot of things were what were weird about it. But, but it’s just that, you know, when we, when we finally decided to tell the story, and to share with with people, that was a process too, but I expected people who are interested in near death experiences to, to, like, be very interested in the book. And they are I mean, they definitely are, but it’s people recovering from grief. Hmm, that those are the people we get very long letters from. And we try to reach out and talk to talk real talk with, with just about as many people as we can, not as therapists, we’re not therapists, we’re just parents having lost a child. And that, and that it’s, it’s a shared experience, a club that no one wants to belong to. But But knowing leaving that sorrow behind that losing a child, or somebody who’s close to you, that that it does, it’s liberating, it gets your get your child back to you, or your loved one, because you could think of the happy times. And that that really was the greatest gift is that you lifted from the fear of death, not only for yourself, but for others. Because if you think about those things that worry people the most is the fear of death, or themselves or their loved ones. And now with this health crisis that’s going on in the world today. And everything else people are really worried. And to relieve people of that fear of death is that your experiences are everything, you don’t want to be in spirit now. Because you are you are alive and you are getting experiences, you want to get the most of experiences. But when your time comes, it’s going to be blissful. It’s not about puffy clouds and white angels with the harps and everything else. It’s not like, like is sitting around and being bored. It’s a beautiful thing. It’s the highest high, it’s the most love. It’s it’s all of these things. And and once you feel that, and you make it real, all of a sudden, everything’s okay.

Brian Smith 53:04
Yeah, you know, it’s interesting, as I listen to you talk, and you were saying that maybe I should have known this or known that. And I interviewed pmh Atwater, who studied near death experiences, probably more than anybody. And adults take somewhere usually an average between four and seven years to integrate a near death experience children’s even longer. So it’s not unusual for someone to take in a while to really grasp what they went through they, they’ve kind of got the the raw data, but as far as putting it together and the sort of information to understand what it means. And for you, it sounds like was kind of triggered by Nick’s passing was kind of accelerated your integration of it, right? So then, now you’ve got to, you know, figure it out. So it’s really interesting, I think how that how that played out in your life.

Kathie Plant 53:50
And also, I think, the fact that I was a believer, a lot of people don’t share that story because they feel fear that people will judge them and think they’re crazy. I was the one that was kind of extracting it at him like, Oh, this is okay, this is real. I mean, I read these books I’d like after my mom and my brother passed away. I’ve read every book like that the life heaviness for real, like, on death and dying, like I was just like, a sponge for knowledge. Because when you lose that person, you want to know that everything is okay, you want to connect. So once he and I started talking, it was just like, I saw, like, everything that he learned is what I read in books, this is real. And and I urged him I said, you got to tell the story. You could help people he could and and he didn’t want to because he’s like, you know, people studied this for so long. And I wasn’t a spiritual person. I just was lucky enough to survive and come back. And it’s a no but you have to tell people because not only did you learn this beautiful wisdom, I mean, in the book, you’ll see that there are To like really profound lessons learned from the other side, after losing your son and still being able to feel blessed, because you know where he is, I mean, that’s like, that needs to be shared. Yeah, to know this, because everyone grieves terribly. We all are going to lose somebody at some point. And it is a debilitating feeling. So if you could share that wisdom, it’s going to help so many people. And it is I mean, once the book came out, and we do workshops, and talk to people on YouTube videos, and all that people are really responding positively. And it’s so heartwarming that we could give that gift to people.

Brian Smith 55:44
Yeah. Workshops. I’m interested here, you said, I heard this you do. Host curtains, full moon ceremonies, sound healings, guided meditation. So tell me about these things.

Stephen Weber 55:55
All of those are just for our friends, we have people over our house all the time, okay. And most of the time, is that is that we’ll meet people at, at public events. And we’ll invite these people complete strangers, I mean, we, it’s a small community this year, nearly so people know each other, our son will, and will, we’re all musicians. And so we’ll play music. And we’ll do Kurt dance will sing and got the likes to dance. And we’ll have a whole house full of people just singing and dancing and having a great time. And then we’ll do something like like we’ll make like Reiki ones at a beach class. I mean, it sounds silly that like talk about it. But we just have so much fun doing this. And it’s and it’s old people as young people, people from all different backgrounds, and you just share the idea of spirituality. And, and that’s really important for us, especially with the young people, because that when I was in that place, is I was responsible for shepherding these young people, you know, to have a human incarnation. And now when we invite people, you know, about half of it is usually young people that, that I want them to know, like, if I was to be able to share one experience that I learned from that place that’s made the most difference in my life, is that ethics and spirituality are an asset in your life. Now, they aren’t a hindrance. A lot of times people think, like ethics and spirituality is a hinderance like, like, if you’re an ethical person, oh, you’re leaving money on the table, you could have got that you could have got that. But no, when you bring ethics to your work, it’s the law of attraction, you begin to, to not only send great vibes into the universe, but you start to surround yourself. And with the vents that are very positive, you know, you create your own reality, by by the way you behave, it’s the law of attraction. And so and so the ethics are key to that. And then also the ability to use the spirit in your everyday work, you can use everyone has intuition, that that part of you which you can feel the energy and people to use that in your everyday life, like if you’re in a business meeting, instead of seeing the kids as kids see the spirit in people. And so when I’m in a business meeting, is I try to connect with everyone’s spirit to find out why they are there, what’s the motivating what’s the physical reason, but what’s the physical, the spiritual reason, and over times, I get better at this, but now I created an environment that’s collaborative, as opposed to doggy dog, and then the whole benefit to everybody. And you as a person, as a spirit is so much raised because of the ethics and so and the spirituality. And so this is the message that we try to send to the kids when we’re with them. And, and that, that you could be spiritual, but don’t have to be poor. You know, yeah, you know, or not have assets or not have, you know, you can be that you just have to make those intelligent choices to, to really be able to make a difference in that in this world to realize that the Spirit is good, ethics is good. Those are assets in your life, and so on. And so that’s a very long answer to a short question.

Kathie Plant 59:21
Shops we do us about the workshop, right? And we’ve been we’ve been doing them locally, where we just we talk about the book, we discuss it we have a question and answer session. We do a sound healing, we do a little crystal.

Unknown Speaker 59:36
I think we’re still

Kathie Plant 59:37
waiting and an angel card reading just to make it fun. And it’s been very well received. We’ve gone to yoga centers, we’ve gone to the historical societies, and we were branching out and then the the health crisis hit us so we kind of took a seat back for a little while, but we have bookings and in other states and stuff coming up We’ve done a couple of zoom kind of thing. So we’re just trying to bring forth that message to everyone. Because when you know, we’re all individual consciousnesses on Earth, but collectively we have a consciousness. So not only should we work on our own consciousness, but as we do that we raise the collective. So we want to share this gift with everybody, and just bring this this earth to a higher awareness so that we can transcend what’s negative and fearful and anxiety produced in this world and just bring everyone to a higher level of consciousness,

Stephen Weber 1:00:39
really, by but by being positive, and sharing it with other people, you know, yeah, they give up work for bosses are real, you know, what am I everybody on the team is really upset and backbiting and the second negativity, that’s, that’s the energy that someone puts out, he has authority as well. But but that’s the energy as opposed to environments where, where people are very happy, and they’re all working together, and life is good. That’s because they’re putting out that energy in the same way in that environment. If you put out that energy into the world, it’s going to come back to you, but it’s going to spread, other people going to take that in their life. And then they’re going to bring that energy to people in their life and world. And especially now because people are afraid, you know, to be able to give that comfort by living that positive life is not about book reading. It’s not about just just on Sundays, you’ll be spiritual. It’s about every day. And that’s an asset. It’s beautiful. We have a good time. We, every once in a while, we’ll have some drinks, and we just, we just, we just live life and we’re going to get every experience we can I’m going to go skydiving, I’m going to ride the back of full Manchu the ball for 10 seconds. I’m gonna do everything I can to get as much experience and Cathy’s gonna make it her job to stop me and make sure.

Brian Smith 1:02:03
Really? Yeah, could you still write you know, are you riding motorcycles anymore?

Stephen Weber 1:02:09
I am. No, but but it is a big part of my life. And, and, and I we, we we talk about this it’s still in discussion. Yeah, but let’s leave it at that. But but but I do love riding horses and that’s tends to find the you know, fill that void. Because I just love horses that beautiful spirit animals and the our friends who had horses as moved away but but but we’re going to find something if this health crisis is over with we’re going to find another bond and we’re gonna go horseback riding does that is that a lot of fun too. And it also helps in the recovery because it’s about stabilizing your back and making small adjustments and so, so looking forward to that as well.

Brian Smith 1:02:57
Well, it’s really interesting talking to you, Steve, because it’s I could you know, as I hear you tell your story and your your big event evangelists for this now, and I can hear you saying how you’ve transformed and, you know, I kind of look at Kathy and I kind of wonder if Kathy is your spirit guide here and flesh to be there to kind of, you know, kind of pull you along and say, okay, you had this experience. Here’s what here’s what you experienced. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:03:23
yeah, little push.

Stephen Weber 1:03:25
Like I said, and she punches like a man so so I really have to watch out with that. But, but but I think you’re right. So because that, you know, but I think it’s like a two way street. Because that Yeah, she’s very much you know, but I bring other things to and that’s why I think like writing this book, is that is that the two of us I think it’s like a meant to be because obviously it’s meant to be by God. But we complement each other so well on so many levels. And so so she did provide that that but but also I gave the realness to to a lot of things she thought about and I’m more she’s more schooled person I’m a more you know, out and doing person the two of us together we help each other grow.

Brian Smith 1:04:13
Yeah, yeah, well, you’ve got the experience to kind of push the flesh on the bones. I’m the person studied a lot of this stuff to come, I think some of you Kathy, but I haven’t had any experiences. So for me, it’s all a matter of hearing or reading what someone else else has done. And I think you’re right to the two of you together, bring bring that and the other thing you know, Steve is you know, people talk about the near death experience. One of the one of the outcomes of a near death experience is people become transformed. They become like a different person. And and I’m just gathering from having this hour long conversation with you that you’re a different person than you were four or five years ago.

Stephen Weber 1:04:48
If the person five years ago met the person today, he’d beat the crap out of them. He would, he would end and also that’s also a comforting thought in the sense that that you Every time I look back six months, I think what a fool I was, you know, and that means I’m growing. And that’s also one of one of those things that that you take with you. Your openness and your willingness to find fault in yourself is a little tougher when Kathy points that things out to me, but especially when I bite them in myself, you know, the growth is good and feels good.

Brian Smith 1:05:21
Yeah. And there, you had like 12 universal truths that you learn. So let’s just go over some of those briefly. Well, we’ve got a few more minutes here.

Stephen Weber 1:05:29
On the first I universal truth, we have we spoke about was that every every is that everything has a spirit. And we spoke about that transition. And then we, the creator, and the creation are one, huh, okay. And, and that’s just what I felt. And I know other people feel differently. But but but but it’s what I felt when I was there is that is that we we talked about cells in your body is that is that I think that’s why we are here in human incarnation is because just as I was preparing those kids to have a human incarnation is that your spirit is always been here for eternity. And it will always be here forever, it’s part of the universe. But your spirit grows and develops through different incarnations over a period of time. And that as we are all connected, all of us together, are all part of the creation, everything, everything has a spirit, and the creation, and the creator are all part of the everything. The Creator and the creation are one. And so and so that was a very liberating thought or truth that I came to because that it gives a, why are we here? As we grow and develop our group consciousness, the creator and the creation, consciousness grows, this is why there are so many of us. And that’s why we’re in spirit, why we have these trials and tribulations while the why the earth is perfect the way it is, because it’s not a perfect place. It is this place to learn and to grow. So um, so the idea that the creator and the creation are one is, is another point. Another point is that don’t have hate or animosity towards anybody or yourself, not because you’re such a highly evolved person and like, Oh, I’m so wonderful. I don’t I don’t judge anybody. No, because that’s the way it is. Because that’s the truth is because when I was going through my life review is that I, the worst experiences in my life, were the ones I learned the most from, and the ones that I felt the most bliss from. And so and so everyone is on their life path. And so if people do bad to you, is that is that don’t allow them to do it. You know, don’t be a Pollyanna and say, oh, what’s going to be what what speed, I mean, that might be a life path. So bid, but don’t let people do bad to you. When bad happens, let it go. Don’t carry it with you let it go. Because that in the same way, the grief blocks your ability to have that that those happy memories, you know, these other things cause blockages when you hate someone, or yourself or you have anger towards yourself, or somebody else, it stops you from finding the real meaning and your experiences. So experiences are everything. That’s our reason for being here. So don’t have hate or animosity towards anyone who brings you those bad experiences.

Brian Smith 1:08:42
Yeah, those are extremely important lessons. And, you know, we experienced them, I guess, uniquely, you got something through the near death experience, but they’re kind of universal for people who have near death experiences, they come back and they tell us these things, that we’re all one that everything is good, everything’s gonna be fine. That is experience. And I think it’s really important especially as we’re going through the trying times are going through right now we’re recording this or anybody might be listening in the future. This is the end of November 2020 this and we were just joking before, you’re kind of writing this year off, this is like the worst year ever. Everybody found opportunity

Unknown Speaker 1:09:17
for growth,

Brian Smith 1:09:18
but it’s a perfect opportunity for growth and it’s a time where a lot of people are having to sit down and be quiet and get and get still by force. Right? So it’s a chance for us to to really take a deep look within and and realize that the this too can be used for good. Yes, absolutely.

Stephen Weber 1:09:38
It would be a shame to go through all this and not to get value.

Brian Smith 1:09:43
Yeah and exactly and you know and with your son You know, that’s something that that we share and I work with an organization called helping parents heal and you know, all of our all of our we’re all parents who have lost children. So in the lovely said that It’d be a shame not to use this You know, it’s like, it’s not any anything any of us wish you said, you know, you’d rather have your son back, I’d rather have my daughter back. But since this has happened, we need to use this for you know, for good. It’s an opportunity for growth.

Stephen Weber 1:10:13
Well, if there’s any opportunity for us to what is some something that that we can participate in some way to do to help your your mission with your, with the parents?

Brian Smith 1:10:26
Yeah, definitely. We’ll talk. Yeah, I would love to have you guys be part of the group. Yeah, it’s a great organization, I bet my daughter passed away five years ago, I’ve been in helping parents heal for four years. And for anybody who’s listening you, my regular listeners hear me talk about it all the time. But it’s a great organization, volunteer organization for parents who have lost children, because I said the word loss, we don’t lose our children. But for parents whose children have transitioned, we get together and we support each other. Because it’s it’s so devastating, as you were saying, Cathy, losing anybody. But especially when you have a child transition, it just seems it’s so out of order. So I I, your book, I think it helped people. And it’s great, because I think people that are going through grief should study near death experiences, there’s so many lessons, near death experiences, and people who study near death experiences can actually get some of the benefits from it. So I think your book is perfect. Because you’ve got both aspects in it, you’ve got the passing of your son, and you’ve got the experiences you had before that and how those two kind of tied together in your life.

Stephen Weber 1:11:32
Now, it also makes you think that, I mean, it does make me think that that is very purposeful. I don’t believe that that things are destined to happen. I think that there are likely outcomes. But but but the fact that I had this, this near death experience and a spiritual awakening, and then the loss of my son, and then the real spiritual awakening that, that if it wasn’t for the near death experience. I don’t know. I don’t, I don’t think I would have no, no, I would have reacted a lot differently. Because there’s a lot of times even now, the gentleman who sold my, my son and drugs was held responsible for for his actions. And people will often say, Oh, don’t you wish you That guy was was executed or all these horrible things? What would what would be happening to him? And I tell him, No, no, I want him I want him to be, I wanted to have life, I wanted to understand what he’s done. I wanted to have children, I want him to take care of the kids and feel the love. I want to take his kid to wrestling and teach them how to play guitar and, and to and to watch them get married and have the kids and to make something out of this terrible thing. You know, I don’t have hate or animosity towards you. And as part of that, like is so liberating. Is that is that to be free from that? I can never go back. I can’t.

Brian Smith 1:13:08
Yeah. And that’s and that’s a great perspective to have, as you said, we’re cells in the body. And we shouldn’t be hating on each other. Right? Because we’re all part of the same body.

Stephen Weber 1:13:16
So true. Yeah. And the only taken away from yourself in the here and now too, as well as whatever may come afterwards.

Brian Smith 1:13:24
Yeah, absolutely. Well,

Kathie Plant 1:13:26
advice to people who are sure, opening a new spiritual door. I like to explain it like a gym membership. Like someone read a book and they’ll feel bliss for like a month because it’s so helpful. But then that wanes. So we have to look at this, like, spirituality is a gym membership. You got to keep going back read the book, join a group, do yoga, do meditation watch inspiring you to videos really keep that going because once you do that more spiritual instances come to you read meet the right people, you find yourself in a higher alignment and then you’re just vibrating at a high level and all this wonder comes to you so just keep at it. Like don’t just stop, keep going. Yeah, really, really hone that spiritual practice just like you would do anything like education or you know, your physical body,

Stephen Weber 1:14:25
the week the garden you let it get away from you. Have you met in a short time?

Brian Smith 1:14:29
Yeah, I think that’s excellent advice. Thank you, Kathy. I want to let people know where they can reach you. So it’s between here and there.org just the best way to reach us.

Stephen Weber 1:14:38
We have facebook youtube, and then I and then our email address is info at between here and there.org and and if you have anything you want to share or reach out to us in any way just just just send us an email and we’ll we’ll get in contact with with you either through through email or or texting or give me a call, you know what, we’re all in this life together and as long as as long as we can help each other, it’s good. It’s good. I, when my when I help other people it feel it, you know, even even when things aren’t going well in your life yet, you know to reach out to that it’s a it’s a wonderful thing. Yeah,

Brian Smith 1:15:20
absolutely. Well, I want to tell you, I want to give you guys a chance to say anything, any final words you might have, on your part, so much wisdom? I’m not sure what you have left. But go ahead.

Stephen Weber 1:15:29
Thank you, if I want to just leave you with with with two, two, Steve isms. Sure, is that life is good, and people are good, even when very sad things happen. And, and try to think about that, and meditate on that. And think about how could that be, so how that could be so and how that is so and that life is good. And people are good, even when very sad things happen. And that’s really what that whole experience taught me and everything that’s happened since because that it is it is. And the other thing that that I want to say is that our experiences are everything they are and just just make the most out of life. You know, a lot of times when spiritual people are going down the spiritual path, all of a sudden, they stopped living life and they do want to go on the mountain and omal day and, and cool. That’s your life path. But experience like that’s why you’re here.

Brian Smith 1:16:34
Thank you, Kathy, anything you want to add?

Kathie Plant 1:16:36
Yeah, I would just like to say that. Were we’re here to love. All the Ascended Masters said the same thing, whether it was Buddha or Jesus, the purpose of life is to learn to receive love and to give love. And, and if we could all just really think about that and live from our heart center and spread that out. That’s that would make the world a better place. So I just want to share that. And I just really also want to stress that when people contact us, we we do want to help like they don’t feel that we’re putting us off. We get so many messages we answer every single one we’ve had face to face meetings with people, if they’re local, and they’re just grieving, we don’t want anyone to suffer. So if there’s anything we could do, just please reach out either on on Facebook or on YouTube, just Anyway, you know, just please don’t don’t suffer.

Brian Smith 1:17:36
Thank you. Thank you, that’s very generous, it’s very generous of you guys offer and I really appreciate what you’re doing. It’s been great getting to meet both you guys and have this conversation.

Stephen Weber 1:17:47
And we and we love you and thank you so much for your message and bringing this piece to people through your through your message and through our shared experience and losing a child and still being able to put one foot in front of the other and help other people heal. You know very I feel your energy. And Kathy and I we both love you and we want to encourage you and and we’re we’re glad to be into this into the spirit into this life with you and your wife and and all the people that that’s part of your life. Okay,

Brian Smith 1:18:18
thank you. Thank you. It’s been a really great meeting you guys

Stephen Weber 1:18:22
sat now the one last thing

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

After being on top of the world as an internationally known psychic medium Nicky was basically bedridden by Myalgic encephalomyelitis or chronic fatigue syndrome for five years. Her memoir reads like a novel. But, it’s more proof that truth is stranger than fiction. I immensely enjoyed my time with Nicky.

From the very moment I saw her on the screen, her energy jumped out at me. It’s hard to believe she still struggles with this chronic syndrome that drives many to despair and even suicide.

Nicky is a born Psychic Medium coming from many generations of psychics before her. She officially started her psychic work 28 years ago. For eighteen years she was also a Major Investigation bereavement trained Detective in Essex Police. Following medical retirement in 2003 and by public demand she has achieved a very high profile in the spiritual industry as a full-time International TV Psychic Medium, Spiritual Teacher, Angel Communicator, and Writer. Her debut book M.E Myself and I: Diary of a Psychic is inspirational!

Her YouTube channel is The Bedroom Guru.




Brian Smith 0:00
Hey everybody, this is Brian back with another episode of grief to growth and today I’ve got with me Nicky Allen. I just finished reading Nikki’s book, which is fascinating as we’re gonna talk about today, or book, which is her memoir, I guess you’d call it story of your life. So I found it to be fascinating. I’m going to read a little bit of introduction. I don’t like to do long introductions. That’s what we’re here to do the interview for, but I’ll be a little bit legit. Nikki is nearly as a born psychic medium coming from many just generations of psychics before her. She officially started a psychic work 28 years ago. But for 18 years, she was also a major investigator, bereavement trained detective, and as an Essex police, following medical retirement 2003. And by public demand, she achieved a very high profile in the spiritual industry as a full time international TV, psychic, medium, spiritual teacher, Angel communicator and writer. And her book is me myself and I are Me, myself and I and I’ll explain what that is about Diary of a psychic that’s due to be released on the 27th of November of this year. We’re recording this on the 17th of November. So with that, I want to welcome Nikki Allen.

Nicky Alan 1:09

I just have to say you’re exceptionally handsome. Oh, my God, I just had to get it out there. All right. Well,

Brian Smith 1:16
thank you. I appreciate that. I love your energy. I just love your energy. And it’s fun after having read your book and knowing what you’ve been through. It’s just it’s amazing the feeling that comes from you. So I’d like to let you start wherever you want to start as far as telling your story. In the book. I know you’ve talked about the fact you were you’ve been psychic since birth, I guess?

Nicky Alan 1:40
Yes, yes. My first encounter though, where I knew something was really different. You know, I’ve kind of had dreams and visions, and I prefer prophesized things. And I thought everybody could do that. The biggest thing was that my dad drove past me when I was nine years old in his car, put his thumbs up and said, I’m okay, Nick is I’m okay. The weird thing about that was, is that he died in a road accident two days before. Yeah. So he had fully manifested Himself in his car and pulled up to me when I was walking with my auntie and our dog. So you can imagine as a nine year old, I am completely shocked because everybody’s told me that daddy’s gone to heaven. So I go running back home. Everybody’s obviously mourning, and I’ve gone How dare you just think that you’re just saying daddy. And so my granddad and this is the strongest side they’ve both got spiritual understanding, but my paternal side is or the biggie medium psychics and healers. And he said, Look, you know, you’re special, you’re different, you’re going to start seeing things like this now. And obviously, the first one is your dad’s. And it kind of proceeded through it. As you’ll see in the book. When I was in my teenage years, I went through a horrendous amount of physical mental abuse. And so it kind of bubbled away in the background. But I realized when I actually connected with a serafin, the oldest older of the angels, that they were singing to me a common me after I had been abused. So I was walking in the corner here, this, and it sounded like, he got like a radio going on next door or something like that. And it was the most beautiful chorus and it never occurred to me that they were angels, I was in so much trauma. And and then I later when I was doing a workshop, I took with the students up, you know, to the spirit world and to heaven, wherever you want to go with the Crystal Palace. And then they said, Oh, welcome back to when are you

Unknown Speaker 3:39
an angel? Yeah, when

Nicky Alan 3:40
we sang to you during your bad times. And it just I came back supposed to be this professional tutor crying my eyes out. Wow. It was amazing. And so I knew then that I had this affiliation to the angel rounds as well. And I kind of you know, stuck with more the spirit well, communication, and obviously, I used it a lot as a detective. You know, when I was in the place, it was fantastic. But the worst thing was one of my major roles was as a family liaison officer for murder victim families. So I facilitate information from our office to you know, the victim’s family. And the problem with that was is half the time on to the murder victim in the room with the family. So I’m trying to keep this professional, you know, data dog around when we need control. All I can do is see like the man or woman don’t tell them I’m okay. Tell them I’m okay. It was really, really difficult. I used to see what people actually did during an interview. And this is supposed to be from call, but I’m seeing that they are guilty. So I’ve just seen them kill the person. When they say no comment, no comment, and I’m not oh my goodness, I know you’ve done it. So what we used to do was we used to pretend anonymous information came in. But really it was my hunch and people started to learn and know you know that I could do it. had a baby get stolen from a hospital was a huge story here in the UK. And it it was it set a precedence for security hospitals after this because this woman just literally walked in and had this baby. And one of the MCI people came to me. And he said, Look, we’re an SI whatever they’re called now. Yeah, that is it. No CSI.

Brian Smith 5:23
Okay, okay.

Nicky Alan 5:26
And he had the blanket that he was in. So I said, The baby will be back by 6am. I drew the view from where the baby was, and exactly what color the baby was wearing some unusual because she was in red and blue at the time. And I said, and the lady is recorded here as having mental health issues in this hospital. And every basically everything I said was completely right. And so what happened was it ended up transpiring that I would do readings and corporate parties and psychic parties in the evening. Investigate my major crime during the day. Yeah. Batman day job, and then I’ve got my psychic capable.

Brian Smith 6:05
So did the people on the force know that you were psychic? Or were you undercover at the time or

Nicky Alan 6:10
not? I was undercover for the first couple of years, I just couldn’t help myself, you know, with me is, as you’ll see, in the book in me, myself, and I, I I’ve got a very loud presence and and now it’s naturally from happiness and abundance, whereas then it was a different kettle of fish. It was through you notice all of that I had obviously adopted, I felt so vulnerable. And so I couldn’t keep quiet. So, you know, we had this missing lady who had gone missing and it was real, you know, grave concerns, right? I kept seeing hairdressers. And then the, the hairdresser knows where she is go to the hairdresser, go to the hair salon. And they’re like what you’re talking about, so just do it. And that. And then it turned out the hairdresser knew where she wasn’t she was in hiding because she was in a relationship she should be in. And so I kept talking about here and then word got out and then said, Oh, can I have a reading? So eventually, by the time I was mostly detective, everybody knew I can do what I did. Some obviously took, you know, you know, took the Mickey Mouse and they just used to joke about it, but others took it seriously. And I did get quite a few results during those days. During those days. It was quite interesting.

Brian Smith 7:19
I believe the British police they actually used they use psychics in their work sometimes. Right.

Nicky Alan 7:24
Well, you know what, I think it’s more accessible in the US to be honest with you. Yeah, I do because being on both sides of it, you know, being a detective I used to send me they said to all the Kooks, so if there’s anybody that called in and said, I’ve seen the vision, they go, you go to that one. Right. Okay. And so really, to be honest with you, from my experience, you know, they really didn’t take a lot on board. I don’t know if it got if you remember this, but we had a serial killer that was killing prostitutes here. Back here, I think it was the late 90s, something like that. No, early 2000. And I knew where the next person was going to get killed. I knew where the person lived, his work and all the rest of it. And luckily, one of the main investigators on it was a friend of mine, I phoned her up and said, Look, you need to listen to me, you know, he’s going to hit again, and it’s going to be here and blah, blah, blah. Okay. And that was it. Nobody really got back to me. And it’s such a shame because genuine bona fide mediums and bear in mind, obviously because I’ve come from that background, lots of murder victims come to me. And so I’m like, why would you listen to me, and then I write it all down. The first victim of the serial, you know, serial killings have come to me six weeks before I even hit the news. And I was in a circle, you know, training students. I said, Oh, my God, someone’s been murdered during this stream and the names Natalie and her, but nobody knew about it. And I’ve got one mom, but she had been murdered on the day, but didn’t get found till six weeks later. So when someone saw Nicole’s Her name’s Nicole, and, and as soon as someone’s sorting the tickets, if Nikki told TV turn on the TV, it’s her. I’m like, wow. So I was connected to that the whole way through. And I kept sending reports in and trying to get people’s attention. But unfortunately, you know, we’re not recognized as an expert witness. We’re not recognized in a court of law. So there’s nothing we can do really, unless some you know, decent detectives thing I’m going to try that inquiry to see if we can get anywhere Yeah, and I so I wish they did use this a lot more. I really don’t even have the fire brigade service common. test me on a few things on how people died in fires. And again, they were right because like proven places, and they were going to push to try and get psychics in to investigate, you know, suspicious fires where they couldn’t get a suspect. But again, nobody wanted to know about it, and they don’t and then the problem is darling, is that this is no disrespect, but there’s some amazing stuff psychics and mediums out there that could bring so much help to emergency services. Yeah, but then there’s the other side, the Joker’s the ones that are really not very good. And the problem is we get tarred with the brush.

Brian Smith 10:11
Yeah. Yeah. It’s hard to sort of man. Yeah.

Nicky Alan 10:15
You know. And, you know, I remember when some of my old colleagues from the police, they came and watch my first day to show and they thought I was going to be this cool, wearing a wedding dress, black makeup. No, you’re not changing my persona at all. Anything about myself? And I think that’s why I did so well, because I was so grounded, right? You know, I am I do what I do. I don’t add any, you know, spookiness to it. Or unnecessary magic is the most natural thing in the world. And the more that I can reach people to understand that they can all do that, because we’re all spirit encased in a physical body, the happier I am. And so to have me myself, and I go out, it’s just incredible. I never, ever plan to be an author ever. I thought there’s no way. You know, at the end of the day, I had my road accident in 2012. And I thought, that’s it. I’m out of it. And the thing is, is that I don’t blame them. But people are fickle. You know, all of my magazine work, dried up, TV work dried up. Everything just disappeared, because I physically couldn’t get out of bed. Yeah, I couldn’t get my head off the pillow. I just wanted to die every day. And I’ve never ever thought that I will try to suicide every day for years.

Brian Smith 11:33
Yeah, let’s let’s go through the arc of of that, because I want people to kind of get a feel for for what you went through. I mean, you you and I’m reading your book. I’m like, please enough for this part woman because I was like, this has got to stop at some point. I mean, you started off you were you were abused. As a child, you went through that. You went to the police force, you had it. You had a great career at the police force, but there was an injury, and you had to retire from the police force. So your life, you rebuild your life again, you become a TV psychic, you’ve got the show and everything. And you’re doing great with that. So that brings us up to the point where we have the the B which is the me and I haven’t heard that term before. So that stands for

Unknown Speaker 12:13

Nicky Alan 12:14
this is the thing. It stands for my object and Kevin, my lighters in the US, you know as chronic fatigue syndrome CFS, right. So that’s one of the thing is it is a fact titled Brian. But obviously, lots of people in the states who like email me and write me say, What’s me and I’m like, Wow, I didn’t think that you knew it over there. But it is chronic fatigue syndrome. So what happened was I was I don’t know if you know about the, the late Colin fry, I was under his management. And I literally what you want to aspire to as a psychic medium, not out of fame and glory. I just wanted to be the highest profile medium I could to share my knowledge and bring as much comfort and that was my main aim. And I was doing it. You know, in front of 1000 people in theaters and a TV I was loving it. And I was just about to set up a state arcade leaders, I was just about to set up a tour in the States and Australia. And the world was at my feet. It really was. But I wasn’t right inside. I never realized that at the time. So then what happens is I’m going down to Devon, which is I don’t know if you know that it’s like on the southwest coast of England, beautiful place very rural. And, you know, the coastline is absolutely phenomenal. And I fell in love with it when I was actually doing a show. I’m in a theater a few years before. And so I was buying this mobile home like static home by the sea. So I had two homes. And I was with this partner who really didn’t love but it didn’t matter. We went down to Devon pulled into a restaurant because we wanted something to eat. And this girl came skidding towards me and T boned the car.

Brian Smith 13:58
Yeah. And

Nicky Alan 14:00
the thing is, is that that side impact is exactly how my dad died. So I don’t know if this kicked off any sort of trauma concerning that. And because he’s death kind was a catalyst all of my suffering or all of our family stuff. Yes. And I literally could see her skidding towards me she’d only pass the driving test the day before I knew

Brian Smith 14:21
this was going to happen before.

Nicky Alan 14:22
Oh yeah, I know in the morning I said to him and I refer to him is Jake

Brian Smith 14:28
Yes, that was a great name for him because wow

Nicky Alan 14:36
and I said oh my god I’m so it’s gonna hit me there’s going to be an impact because where is it? So what I don’t mind was when he said and I said I don’t know I just I could see myself getting this impacted since I woke up nobody likes sweating breathless from a dream was like oh my goodness, I didn’t know when it was so so it had to happen. It’s as simple as that it had to happen. Yeah. And and so it happened that day at 7pm that day, and I saw her skidding towards me, I couldn’t get my seatbelt off. So she kind of impacted me with me crunched up against the center console. So everything was black, you know, this side of the car and I couldn’t get out. I just couldn’t move. I thought I’d broken my jaw. The pain was excruciating. The paramedics had to get me out. I was in hospital overnight. And in the end, I did so many tests because I couldn’t understand. I was literally screaming in agony. And they were pumping me with morphine, but they said, Look, you’ve just got soft tissue damage, you’ve obviously got severe shock, and they released me. And I went home and went straight to bed and I slept the whole day and the night and then the following night I woke up. And my eyes all I can describe is is that it felt like molten lava in my eyes. I could almost hear my eye sockets moving off, what the hell is this all about? And then when I looked towards the window, it was like someone that just stopped me with hot fire pokers. And I thought this isn’t right. I was dizzy. I felt nausea. I was shaking my body feel my hands. And as I tried to get up out of bed, I just fell on the floor, couldn’t move, couldn’t walk. And so my friends at the time, she carried me to the toilet, and helped me she go seriously What the hell? I said, I don’t know what’s wrong. Cut long story short, I went back to ama. And they basically said, you know, the accident emergency they said it’s just shocking. Notice, just wait a while. And then we roll on a year with multiple neuro tests and all the rest of it. Because I was still I was in excruciating pain. Sometimes I couldn’t talk. I couldn’t understand what you were saying to me. I couldn’t understand why I can stay focused on anything. My memory lost about 10 minutes before it left again. It was the most scariest time. And because I was in such a such a badly badly balanced relationship. I was the breadwinner. So I had to cancel things. And so that started affecting the money side of things, you know, and so I then forced myself khopoli. But honestly, I’m not joking. You’re Brian, when I read my book, I just I keep rereading it because I don’t recognize that girl anymore. Yeah, keep picking What were you thinking? How much did you hate yourself? That you would drag yourself in agonizing pain full of painkillers and red ball and go to a state show? sitting on a sofa? Yeah, because I couldn’t I couldn’t stand and I’m like, What were you thinking? But obviously that you know, the material pressure that we all have, I’m thinking I’m gonna lose my house, I’m gonna lose my second eye. And so yes, the material world does play a massive part in pressure and all of our decisions. Sure, I’ve learned now. Doesn’t matter. I had it all. And I lost a lot. I lost a lot. And if I lost you, and now I’m in a home that I older, I’m by the beach and literally the beaches across the road. And I have no debt. I’m completely debt free. And that was helped by an angel regulary I’d never heard of Yeah, this is the thing. The angel thing was amazing. Because it wasn’t, you know, but some people may say, oh, you’re preaching to the converted, you know, you’re already spiritual. And so you know, you just put the angels out. Yeah, absolutely not. I hated and I don’t use the word hate anymore. But I hated the angel realms, the spirit world with a vengeance. I convinced myself that I’d made it all up throughout the years, and I just lucky guests and cold read people. I just absolutely hated everything about them. As far as I was concerned, they abandon me. They’d forsaken Me and nothing rotting in a bed for five years. I

Brian Smith 18:57
think that’s so important. It’s interesting. I was there’s a guy interviewed a little while ago, and he wrote a book about spiritual stuff. And one of the things he said is when we come into this world, we agree to be abandoned. And never heard anybody put it that way before I’ve heard forget forgotten, or we forget but not abandoned. And as I’m reading your book, and I’m thinking, the same thing, okay, this woman, she’s connected. She’s physically saw her father after he passed. She’s a medium. She knows this stuff is there, but the hell that you went through, you know, it’s just like you had to feel like, what’s going on?

Nicky Alan 19:32
Oh, totally. The air was blue darling. I used to shout and scream and rage at them. I completely lost my face the will to live. The only thing that stopped me from doing it. And believe me, I used to look at all that morphine and think it would take 10 minutes and I’m gone forever. I’m done. And the only thing that stopped me when my two little rescue dogs that I had, and they used to sit so patiently with me and Teddy, one of my dogs and learn to wake me up, which is also you know, in the book, he would learn to wake me up and get me up and then I’d go back down to sleep get any wake up, get he still does it now, I have a bad day now. He’ll like, Come on, get up, I need to get up and move about and then and then you’ll get in my bed and not let me back in.

Brian Smith 20:21

Nicky Alan 20:22
So I kept picturing, the only thing that kept me alive was I kept picturing me. And I know it sounds really morbid, but me being dead. And then sitting there crying, nobody finding me because I had no contact with anybody apart from the postman, you know, who would come every now and then. And so that’s the only thing that stopped me from going over, because, you know, eight months homeless as well. And having this horrific condition laying on people’s sofas and being polite, and all you want to do is just lay out, you know, it was just more of it just I couldn’t believe and I still can’t. I have got somebody that said, Well, this, this sounds like fiction, which was Yeah, but it’s not every single thing that happened in that book is as true as the days long as I sit here. And it just I could not believe it was just one hit after another. And people say, you know that they get trauma over perhaps a divorce or a loss, or losing their job or losing their kid I had a lot. Yeah, it was just one stage of another of complete and absolute loss where I literally had two dustbin bags, I managed to hide away some of my furniture storage before that got taken. And to then see how Angel visitation and the thing is, again, I used to really look at that thing was hallucinating was like making it up. Because the biggest thing that happened and I say this to anybody that’s going through any trauma or any loss, is you have to surrender. You can’t just surrender. and accept your situation except the last and look away. Sorry, my voice gets a bit weak sometimes see CFS still got it CFS, and it’s accepting your situation and then finding baby steps to move yourself on from the biggest grief or the biggest darkness of your life and find ways Okay, I’ve got this, this is a situation, how do I move on. And my biggest problem was, I was mourning my old life. So as mourning the material aspects of my life. And what I didn’t realize is that they’ve stripped me bear to completely cleanse me inside and out. I didn’t realize how unhealthy I was. I didn’t realize how much I didn’t love myself.

Brian Smith 22:50
Yeah, that that part is, you know, as I’m mourning your own life for years, I’m reading the book, and then thinking about the loss of your first career, your police career, and then you rebuild yourself. And you’ve got to feel like okay, I’m on top of the world. And I’m doing what I’m supposed to do. So I hear about people talking about things like manifestation, the law of attraction. Oh, and it’s really easy to believe in that when things are going well. But what is what are your thoughts about that when you’re going through what you’re going through?

Nicky Alan 23:19
Well, this was the most amazing thing, because throughout all of the processes of this visitations, and I knew they were real, because the dogs would bark, they would literally go mad the middle of the room. So I know that wasn’t my imagination. And one of the things they said to me is, this is after the surrender, where I just went, I’m done. I’m surrender, if you want to show me magic, do it now because I’ve just done that. I’m not going to kill myself. So you’ve sorted this out for me. And that’s when it all started after the surrender. And so I will not in frame of mind to think I deserved anything that I could manifest. And so the first train that they took me on was the train of getting rid of all of my past demons and traumas that shaped me into the person who I was and my behavior and my thoughts systems myself, belief systems myself love. And one of the essences I learned what you have to believe that you deserve what you’re going to get. If you don’t have love yourself, or you think I’d like that, but I don’t really deserve it. You’re not going to get it. No. And so the way they did it was incredible. They said to me, they said to me, sure I’ve written recently I did write in the book is that I like to draw when you’d like to be draw, we’d like to be you know, and so I drew this huge house in the Caribbean because that was my the Caribbean is my, I’m sure I’ve got a previous life there. I used to like I died, I scuba dive, and I used to go to five, six times a year. I love the people the energy I just absolutely adore it. So I thought right, so I’m going to draw this big house. I drew everything. From where I’ve made my cup of tea in the morning or coffee, whether TV was or the bedrooms, I then drew a key at the end of it where the swimming pool was. Now this huge lagoon that eventually led into the sea when they go hiking it like that. I don’t think so. Oh, how they laughed. Because when I was well, which again, is it’ll be in the book to show you how I got there. I literally went over my friend lived in Grenada. And she said, Look come out. It doesn’t matter if you you know, it was all disabled access through the airports. It’s absolutely fantastic. And I got over there. And you know, it was it was easy, because I could just sleep in somebody, it wasn’t a problem. And then she said, Oh, would you like to come with me, and with my friends looking at new house, she’s going to buy, you know what’s coming next. So we walk or come up to these gates and I say, I know this place. And we walked in, there was even a dead lizard in the middle of the floor, I drew in the picture. And I walked into the house. And it was exactly how I drawn it, where the swimming pool was, it was a key at the end into this beautiful lagoon in Grenada, and becoming friends with that lady and staying at that house. And so I went, Whoa. And I showed her sent her photo of it. And I got back to UK. And she went, Oh, my goodness, that’s my home. I said, I know. But I drew that four years ago. Wow. I was like, wow, you know, things like that. So when so that obviously hadn’t been proved to me till four years time. But it was simple things like I used to scream and shout at them, even though I knew they were there. And they’re this wonderful, celestial, you know, presence I used to go.

And I remember them telling me to write my journey to write a book. And I’ve really already do you want me to be an author now? Do you? Whatever this is how you speak to them. I still was quite angry, as you can tell. Oh, yeah. All right. Because they’ve all left me behind. Nobody cares about me. I haven’t even got a magazine column, how am I going to become an all star who’s gonna play my book, who cares all this self pity thing. And then the full Oh, how they laughed again, Brian, because the following day, I got an email completely randomly from a very huge spiritual magazine in the UK, asking me if I wanted to do a column. Now you have to be high profile busy and out there to get a column in a magazine. This is extraordinary. And then three months later, I get offered a second column. And so suddenly, I’m in the running here. And then they told me, they forced me to teach on YouTube. And I say teach. I’m like, I’m not teaching anything. We’re gonna do it from my bed. Yes, teach. And I’m like, No, I’m not doing it. And then my phone turned itself on. And a YouTube video is playing. I didn’t even subscribe to youtube at the time. So are you kidding me. But by that time, I learned that everything they were telling me to do, I did it and things worked out incredibly. And so I started, obviously, the bedroom bureau where I kind of liked it. But I started doing videos for my bed. So you know, I’ve got my makeup on today. But I normally just sit in my pajamas in my bed. And then I just talk about whatever I want to do, or spiritual education. And when I feel well enough, I do card readings. And it’s taken a while to grow. But everything that they’ve told me to manifest and believe in has happened. So when that when the book was finished, and it wasn’t even edited professionally, to be honest with you, that’s something I like to do next time around. But okay, send it out. Send it out, sending this out, send it out and get a deal. And I’m like, there’s no way there’s no way I’m gonna get a deal. It’s not gonna happen. And oh, my goodness, only took about a week. And oh, yes, we’re very interested in this project. But what am I Oh, my goodness. And now it’s number one on Amazon in my genre is reached number one. Wow. It’s incredible. Because, you know, I would I wouldn’t have been, I wouldn’t have been that surprised in my time before the road accident. I call my previous life because upside is huge following. And lots of presents, you’re on a TV and it was easy to come from nothing. And then reach number one in Amazon. And I’m like, this is just incredible. But it’s But even now, I just manifest anything. And it’s not out of greed or one if i think you know, that’s going to help the greater good. So can you help me do that? They do it. Wow. Man, it’s

Unknown Speaker 29:49

Nicky Alan 29:49
and it’s just about trusting the process. It’s about surrendering, accepting whatever blackness you’re in and finding ways to work forward from it. And you were just mentioned earlier about my prison living course. That’s exactly what I did with my prison living course. It’s a seven week online course. And I send lessons or the sessions every week, and they contain. They contain everything that the angels and the spirit world bought me to get you into a spiritual and mindful way of life that you can deal with cope with anything moving forwards. And so now because I’ve seen the vastness and the depth of our soul and who we are and where we come from, when I get a problem, it’s like really rare. Some people will make that problem. Oh, my God, I can’t go pocket. It’s like, Oh, well, yeah, it’s not great. But I’ll get over it. Because it really isn’t big in the grand scheme of things. Yeah. So that’s how I feel about when people say to me, how are you so positive? So how are you so happy? It’s because I’ve been shown that we’re not alone, that miracles do happen. And that they brag to me for five years sentence in Beggs took me through a spiritual boot camp to alleviate all these demons. And, you know, the way I used to behave from my trauma in the past, and have created this happy, contented person that sitting in our pajamas rich in the world. Yeah.

Brian Smith 31:17
Yeah, it’s, it’s, um, when I when I guess what I’m reading your book and looking at the arc of your life and the ups and the downs. And, again, the spiritual bootcamp. You know, it’s really easy, I guess, for us to say that I call it spiritual bypassing, he would just say, Oh, well, it’s everything’s supposed to be so I’m just gonna be you know, happy and you’re very real and very raw in the book about the way you explained, you know, what you went through, but it seems like you always held on to the sliver, obviously, you did, because you thought about suicide, but you didn’t do it. So there was always some hope, some hope that you could, and then you You even got a message. Your father came to you another time, but some a, and you’re kind of like, Okay, well, I have to go through this. But there’s light at the end of the tunnel.

Nicky Alan 32:04
That’s that’s what I think kept me going as well as in the moment it was my dogs. But I knew subconsciously that my dad had told me he visit me at my friends. It’s an amazing gift they gave me my friends took me away to Turkey. And I somebody said, Oh, we heard your psychic Would you like to swap a reading you know, with the local car here? So we swapped readings and then I went up to the apartment just to kind of take on board everything she said because she literally gave me a reading that was so gluing during Yeah, I are gonna be so real. You’re gonna lose everything. Oh, my Oh, my goodness. It’s like she goes in your two dogs will keep you alive. I’m thinking what she’s talking about. It’s like how I need to like kind of, you know, put and I put it all in my journal at the time, I sanded my journal, and then barely mind it was 45 degrees outside and the balcony doors are open to the aircon wasn’t on or anything in the apartment. And I looked out. And I could see mist coming from my mouth. I’m like, What is going on? It was freezing. And then in my peripheral vision, I looked at my legs. And I just saw all this light and glitter. And it was getting stronger and stronger. And it was like my dad just walked through the clouds. And it was like all this. He was like semi invisible. But when his face turned to me it was solid, like a human face to it. Hello, darling. I was on the floor. I was hysterical. And normally, most mediums will tell you this Yes, we can connect get connected to a spirit person when we’re doing a reading but just to sit when you close down and have a spirit visit yo for 10 minutes. He sat there in a chair. And like it makes me go through see now. And I’m literally looking at him and I’m blinking thinking I’m having a breakdown. I’m looking at my dad. And he obviously had gone to Gabriel who is an archangel of visitation as well as the messenger and manifestation. And he obviously said, Look, you know, she’s a spiritual ambassador. We need to kind of keep her because she might kill herself. Let’s go down and have a chat with her. Yeah, so I think he was he was enabled I don’t think never happened again to me. And he basically did say you’re going to go through the worst time of your life. And you know, people I think one of I had someone that did, really not to me, actually. But someone reviewed my book and said, Oh, you know, it was all her her problem. It was all her choices she made you know, she’s not the heroine because she made bad decisions. But the whole reason I highlighted my bad decisions because that’s what we do when we have no self love. Yeah, when we are when we are victims of trauma, and whatever we’ve had happened to us, we will always make those mistakes and that’s why I highlighted the bad mistakes I made so much especially in relationships, because so many women and men can connect with that and why am I always with people like that? Because you deserve any better. This is simple

Brian Smith 35:00
Yeah, no, I, I don’t, I don’t agree with that guy. I thought the book i just i have i’ve read up until recently, like two Memoirs of my entire life. I borrow biographies, biographies, whatever, because I don’t know. But now I see this as a universal story. And I see everybody in you, you’re just extreme. It’s like you got dumped on. But we can all relate to these little things. And when and when you say I lost it all. Some of us will say why I lost everything, you literally lost everything. You know,

Nicky Alan 35:32
absolutely everything. You know, I’ve always been Sorry, I’ve always been a survivor. And so if I had had my health, I would have just dusted myself down and carried on fighting, but also to have your health taken as well. Yeah, I literally had no strength in any direction at all. And so I chose that isolation. And some of my friends, like, some people have asked us on Goodreads and things like, Well, you know, where your friends were. And it’s like, a bit, I didn’t, most of them didn’t even know half of what I was going through. Because, you know, when you have like, a really bad flu day, and you feel rotten, you know, you’re just gonna, you know, upset people, because you’re moaning, you just want to get your head down and just sleep it out. And that’s what I did. That’s what I wanted to do. For five years, obviously, the angel round and spirit world had a different idea. But that’s what I wanted to do. And I just, the thing is, as well, it was exhausting. Having to talk to people if I if I explained it. And this is another thing I want to say to chronic illness sufferers as well as he said, I used to be such a people pleaser before. And so I would sit and enjoy people talking and I’m thinking, My God, this is gonna I’m gonna be in bed for a day because of this. And so you know, even now, so I’ve stayed in bed all day, so that I can make sure that I’ve got the energy to do this interview, and then I’ll go back to bed after this. So people see this bit. But you know, at the moment, my ribs are hurting, my knees are killing me. My eyes are really tired, and I can’t feel my hands very well, because they feel a bit numb. But you don’t tell people that it’s an invisible illness? You don’t go on about that, you know, you just deal with it. That makes sense, right? And so to chronically suffers, Own your truth, tell people No, I can’t you know, the best friend or the best family member is someone that will sit in the other room, and just pop in and see if you need anything now and then not to talk or say, oh, that Oh, darling, if I had $1 for every person that said to me, oh, you know, if you stay awake, you sleep all night. And, you know, if you just rest up and go do some exercise that will get you going, you’re on this on this same rubbish, I would be in a mansion being fed grapes by naked waiters.

Brian Smith 37:43
It’s you know, when you say this, it reminds me when people are going through grief, it just takes everything we have out of us. And so if we’re a people pleasing kind of person being around other people, just drains us. So sometimes people just, they need to be by themselves, and to process we’re going through and that and that’s okay. And it’s okay to learn to learn to say no to people. I don’t I don’t want to do that right now. I can’t do that right now. That’s not that’s not good. For me. I think one of the lessons that you learned with the condition that you still deal with?

Nicky Alan 38:16
Absolutely right. This is why it isn’t just about chronic illness, you see is about people that are grieving or in bereavement. And this is my second book is actually completely on this subject, which I can’t wait to get out there, which is you won’t leave me and it’s a spiritual, as well as a human aspect on how to cope with grief and bereavement, how to then seek spiritual help, and then how to manifest a spiritual relationship with your loved one. And at the end of it, it actually describes true stories of people that were totally skeptic. And I’ve reconnected with the loved ones from the spirit world from what they’ve done. It’s a beautiful book. And that was the next stage from this one. You know, this was me saying who I am now and how to cope with grief and loss. So it’s not just about the illness. It’s about the fact of how to approach the biggest losses of your life, whether it’s a loved one, whether it’s a material thing, whatever it is. So I you know, I feel like I remember having a reading with someone, I never planned it for someone who visited locally, and they said, Oh, we’ve got free slot to want to go in there. And the media actually said to me, your first because I actually did, I did have a fantastic dream, I get these dreams. And then I write the book out. And I had this amazing story here for because I thought that was going to be my first book. And this medium said to me, you know, your first book is going to be your diary. Don’t know. I said, you’re going to be a pioneer. And you’re going to make it so real more that people will pay attention and realize that anybody can heal from any darkness. I don’t put that book out. I want to do my lucky fiction story I dream about Yeah, yeah. And they were right. You know, and it was and I just knew I had to get this one out first. And then, as soon as I’ve finished that one, and then thought, Well, the next natural step is, is to show how to cope with grief. So I obviously knew about the grieving model, I knew about how to cope with grief because officers bereavement training is a detective. But then I also started to get taught by Angel rounds in the spirit world. Things like what crystals help, but mindfulness exercises help. Well, Angel helps you, you know, and I started to, and they start to introduce angels I’ve never heard of. And so this is Charlie. Well, I’ve never heard of that. Yeah. The big ones like Michael and Gabriel, right. Okay, and in the room to go pink and they go, this is Tony. Oh, she’s going to help you. I want right and then I’ll be on that Google. Charlie. Well, is the Archangel of self love helps you through grief and helps you to manifest and enough Oh, my Oh, my goodness. So then they taught me to start. I you know, identifying what Angel and then identifying how they would help me in my grieving because it wasn’t just as you say, I was grieving the loss of every single part of my life. Yeah. And it was, this is my life.

Brian Smith 41:08
Yeah. Well, your family. Yeah. Thanks to you know, your family. And, and your your romantic relationships and your money and two homes. And your health. I mean, so that’s pretty much. That’s true. Yeah, your career, yeah, stripped down to two, to nothing. And that just so the, again, reading your story, I just see the human spirit, the endurance of the human spirit that the resilience that just hanging on to and then there’s chronic illness that a lot of people dismiss, and don’t understand and say, well, you’re you’re faking it, or you’re it’s all psychosomatic. So you don’t get a lot of sympathy that people get if they have, you know, other types of conditions.

Nicky Alan 41:53
Oh, it’s the most disgusting. Oh, what’s the best way to say it without me getting really angry? We are so badly disregarded, because it’s not a well known name. No, Ms. And this is no disrespect to them as suffers. But for instance, over here, I think it’s 46,000 sufferers in the UK, they mess with CFS and Fibromyalgia is 260,000. But we’re just basically told this is your diagnosis, because I can’t find anything else wrong with you. Off you go. Yeah. And the suicide rate obviously gone up because of it. And I get so many hundreds of people a week writing to me saying, I’ve got nothing to live for. Have you done it? Right? No, because the problem is there’s no facilities for us. There’s no center we can go to I remember going to I remember going to ask for physio therapy, because I just my whole body was seizing up. And they basically I managed to get to the first appointment. And I said, Look, can I not go into the hydrotherapy pool? I feel that really helped. Because I’m just in so much agonizing pain. It’s not just joints, its skin. Its hair follicles. Its muscles, tendons, nerves. Got a whole

Unknown Speaker 43:03

Nicky Alan 43:04
And because I know that’s just for people that you know, that are recovering from an accident. I went well. It really helped me. No, no, no, not gonna have that. So then he told me he sent me home and told me to do tychy I couldn’t even lift my hand up to eat something. Yeah. So and then, because I was so exhausted. There’s so much pain. I couldn’t make the next two appointments. So it just struck me off to sit up because you haven’t bothered to turn up. So Whoa, hang on a minute. It’s not I haven’t bothered. He said, I haven’t got any carers. I’ve got nowhere to drive me. Yeah. And I physically can’t get to the appointment. And what is the point when you’re telling me to do things I can’t even do. And so I got struck off of their I got struck off of the me service that they do, because they turn up the pilots to sit and moan about my condition and go home. And so that was it. I was left with nothing. Yeah. And you know, if it wasn’t for my man, who came and visited me from the spirit world one evening and said, don’t want that Facebook thing. I’m thinking, What? You’ve come all the way from heaven, and you’re telling me to go work? And I thought, well, I might as well do it was about 3am in the morning, and I opened up Facebook and there was this lady crying. And I’m thinking what she cried for me it was with happiness. And she had been in bed for 10 years and taking this drug. And then within a week she was down a part plan the children and she couldn’t believe how well this drug works. Now in any I’m afraid. I’m a skeptic. I’m an open minded skeptic. So again, I don’t think everything’s fluffy and spiritual, because the detective in me says finding evidence. They must have value up there, darling. So right now I’m having that you gotta prove it. So because I’ve been woken up and my Nana told me to go on there. I thought I’m going to find these people up because I’m one of these people as well. But don’t sit there and go oh worries me. I will try and get as well as I can. And so I find these people up and it was and funny enough. It’s all comes from Glasgow in Scotland. And it was a drug. It’s a drug called low dose naltrexone. And I started taking that within a week, I was up on the phone telling my mom, I will come and drive and see her she couldn’t believe it. Yeah. And so that drug is the one that enables me now to sit here and talk to you understand, you see, my throat is a bit weak. So I’m a bit tired at the moment. But apart from that, that’s the drug that got me up and running. But guess what, they won’t prescribe it here. So you have to buy it privately. And I know that obviously, you do all have private medical schemes over there. But one of our things is the NHS. And I said to them, why can’t I get this through the GP? Why can’t I get it through my surgery, my doctor surgery. And you know why? It’s because it’s a nonprofit drug, and because the man that created the drug, and he was the one that created the HIV drug, that people could then take HIV and live a normal life, he just thought that a smaller dose would help people with MS. PERS hashimotos. Me, and so it does. And, and but he refused to send it on to pharmaceutical companies. So it didn’t go through the FDA. So it’s now known as a Red Label drug. And yet, I know it works. I know 100% it works and to have I have three years of insomnia and to have my first night’s sleep on that drug, I can’t tell you, because the funny thing is, as you know, my first place only due to the generosity of a friend was in a cemetery I lived in. Yes. And I used to know, but I still laugh now because I had this big white fleece throw with this hood. And because I didn’t sleep for three years, that doesn’t help me mental health. I don’t. Oh, my goodness. And I remember one night, I think I’m sure I did put it in the book. I remember one night because I was wide awake, I thought, you know, at least I can walk I feel I can walk a few steps. And so I had a hurricane them and I was walking through the cemetery. And then I’ve heard this car, smash up of the road and go through the hedges and get back down the road. I think they saw they saw a ghost walk.

Brian Smith 47:13
Yeah, I can only imagine.

Nicky Alan 47:18
That was me trialing out walking with this new drug. It was me trying out this walking. So there wasn’t a ghost in the cemetery there. Yeah. But um, and so I think he can actually walk and then I got further and further. And then that’s when they then taught me how to pace how to respect myself. And again, it all boils down down into self love. self love is the key to everything. I deserve to rest. I deserve to say no to people, I deserve to be the best I can be. I deserve to have the best people in my life. And once you start giving that energy out, you attract it back in I’ve got the most beautiful supportive loving friends around me now I’ve ever had. Because in the old, the old me the TV Nicky Allen, you have all these people connect to you. And you’re just you know, bathing their adoration because you hate yourself so much. They can do it for you. They can get in the gas. Yeah, but now I have these most beautiful, earthly people around me. I’ve met the most wonderful man who’s loving my life and he’s my soul mate. I know that. It’s all just and How could you do that? Again, I remember being you know, celibate for six years, I just didn’t go near men at all. I just knew that I had to keep away from them. And I finally learned that lesson out of self love again. And when they said, you know, you’re going to be meeting some No, No, I’m not. No, I’m not at all. And it was very difficult circumstances, how I met them everything. But again, they were telling me I was going to have it and I deserved it. And I deserve someone to account for me because I used to be who’s gonna want somebody in my old self, who’s gonna want someone that has chronic fatigue and is always in pain, who’s gonna want that person. But he’s seen me walks along. Because I love myself enough now. I can he can come in, I haven’t brushed my hair and a shower. And I don’t care because it’s not I don’t care. But it’s me. Yes, a transparency that I feel attract are the transparent people. And that’s what I want to bring across to everybody. I want to show people that so many people say how do you do it? How do you do it? It’s not about how you do it. It’s how you feel doing it. Do you deserve to do it? You can’t just you know, it’s like the prison living costs. For instance, you can’t just go through the motions. So look down that box of tick that box you’ve got feel it and know it and accept yourself. Love yourself because as soon as you start creating that self adoration helped by champion well at the time, Archangel Tony Well, I’m like, wow, I’m attracting this abundance. And so much like for instance, I have no credit. I have no credit at all, like because obviously my ex stole hundreds, not hundreds 10s of thousands from me. My bailiffs knocking on the door and God knows why And I remember I thought I thought because I could drive again. I couldn’t use a manual car. It was just too much. It’s too much on my limbs. And I thought I need an automatic car and I said, Do you think I’d be able to get an automatic car please guys, I talked to Mike now I don’t go down a lot. Okay, and on whiteboards All right, guys. So this is the problem I need a new car and I’ve got no credit. And then I felt this overwhelming knowledge you will get it and I’m like, this is impossible because I you know, I’m still Blackboard. You know, I think it takes about five or six years just need to get over here. It doesn’t even want to get your credit back. And so I thought, What will I deserve this? I need it. I need an automatic car. So all I have to do is just press one pedal and steal. I really do need this. And I put in I just found this quite came up. Wow. It’s exactly the same as my other car. All I needed was just an upgrade. My the car was leaking and goodness knows what else. Yeah. And I thought that’s the one I’d like please. And then I just went by it now and it just went yet the credits been approved. Yeah, and within a week the cars on my drive.

Brian Smith 51:14
Yeah. Yeah, it’s really interesting how it seems like well, you were told you’re gonna go through this period. And I think the Turkish medium is just it’s almost kind of funny because we got to mediums you got a fortune tellers always tell us good stuff. He’s like, yeah, you’re gonna get over this, you’re gonna get it. And that person is like, Yeah, no, this is gonna suck for a long time. But, you know, you go through this, this arc, but it’s all Well, I don’t know what put words in your mouth. So how do you feel about the idea of soul planning? Do you think this was this was planned for your benefit? Okay,

Nicky Alan 51:47
the reason why, and, again, proven to me, very quickly, I’ll tell you about my guy because it will will bear relevance to the soul planning. As I said to you a while ago, I am an open minded skeptic. So unless they prove it to me, I will not share it with anybody. So whatever talk about my YouTube channel, or you know, if I can get out to physical shows, it’s what I know is 100% backed up with some material evidence. Okay. So when my guide came in, introduced himself to software got retired from the police service Juliana’s, he said, Oh, this is how we met. This is how we met online, whatever. There’s no I mean, it’s, it’s a pleasure, not an Indian. basically takes me to this cave, right? freezing cold, it’s cold, I can smell the sulfur in the air and hear these drops of water. And then this cave rock opens come out. And it’s

Unknown Speaker 52:37
lovely and

Nicky Alan 52:38
warm. And there’s all these cypress trees, and I and Juliana stone is saying, this is where we live together, Mary, I’m not okay then. And it says, you know, he’s a monk. I’m thinking because I know because Lastly, I get everybody to meet me. I’m not gonna lie. So he said, I said, Where are we? Then he goes, it’s 1452. Interesting, very wrong. And I went right, I can remember that. Thank you remember that nickname? Seems like kind of like a half dream half meditation. I didn’t even intend to do this. I didn’t think what I’m going to speak to my guide. He just taught it up. And so I said, What, okay, and he goes, come with me. He says, This is the church, you are welcomed into the house of Mary mcmap. Mary Magdalena in 1452. And it was called sense of seniors. And it was this huge pillars and his beautiful Italian square, it was lovely. As you walk through the columns, there was this fountain and they’ll start 20. So that’s where I want my prophecies on that artwork. Okay. And so it takes me through and then he says, Come, come, Nicholas. And then this beautiful man comes, kisses me on the forehead. And he said, I look after you marry in this house. I am Nicolas. And then I saw a big v. Nicholas a fifth. And I thought what perhaps is a postmodern eye. And so then they said, Can we must make case Eva marries upon us? And they looked up to the sky. And then I came around, I must have been out for about two hours. Wow, Google, some kind of finding bits and pieces. But no, she’s so real. And you know what I did? I bought a ticket and went to Rome.

Brian Smith 54:11

Nicky Alan 54:12
I got in a cab. And I said, Take me to sit Cecilia’s church now plays in trust to Barry went see and I went oh, my God, because existence is driving me My heart is going bonkers. We get there and I stopped crying. He’s gonna you’re Okay madam. Are you okay? And I’m not Oh my god. I’m in the square. There’s the columns of census Celia’s church. And I can see the founding through the columns on my home. My goodness, I can’t believe this. I walk in and there’s a bust of Juliana’s and there’s a San Franciscan monk and they had to do six months sabbatical in a cave to find themselves before they then went into the monastery. I found out That the place where the non state is a house of Mary madeleina and that they were welcomed into that church into the monastery in 1452. I couldn’t believe it. So then after crime is out there, I then went to the Vatican. And I thought I need to go and find Pope because of faith that will absolutely seeing it now because I found Juliana’s and so I went up to this guide, and I don’t if you’ve ever been to the Vatican, there’s 10s of thousands of people everywhere. And I said, Where’s Pope Nicholas? descript? No, madam. No, it’s not me. I went. And I started getting really impatient. I’m not a real person. I was getting really impatient. And he goes, No, he’s not here. I said, Yes, he is. And then I just walk across these thousands of crowds to this tiny little doorway. I know exactly where I’m going. I walk down the steps. Second crypt on the right, I am over this crypt, crying my eyes out hugging it, to the extent where some nuns come up to me and say, Oh, you’re right. And I sat me down. I was hysterical. And then when I got myself all sorted, when are the kryptos Pope, Pope Nicholas the fifth. And he presided over the Diocese of trust, a very important 52.

Brian Smith 56:06

Nicky Alan 56:07
I’m like, wow. So when I come back up, this guy finds me how he found me. And he goes, you’re very special lady. I found from non superintendent, the Holy Spirit was here, he ended up giving me three files of holy water from the Pope’s form. And I healed my dog’s tumor with that, that’s just another side. So I’m like, wow, this, this like previous life thing really works then. So then they started introducing me to my other guides and my previous lives, and I went and found them where I was, one of them’s Arizona, still got to do that one, Arizona. And so then I started getting into soul journeys. And I was very lucky that I’ve been given access to education records, so I can look at the book of souls and that kind of thing. And during my learning, they showed me what happens very long answer sorry, darling, but great the basis of it. So they took me to the halls of learning, which is a layer in the Crystal Palace, which is heaven. Basically, I explained it on my YouTube channel. And in the voice of learning, this is how layman’s terms it happens. And this is all described in my second book, what happens is, is we have a soul cluster, okay of people. So wait, no matter what we do, wherever we go, those people stick with us through every incarnation, we’re all attracted to each other, we stick together. So for instance, when you come down, you know, your daughter could be your dad, your mom could be your brother in the next life, but we all stick together. What happens is we decided to come down normally three generations, they tell me is the gap when we feel like we want to come down. And I said, Why do we come down and they sit because you get so bored with the utopia of where you are? I don’t know. I’m gonna I’m gonna be bored.

Brian Smith 57:48
I’ve never done this.

Unknown Speaker 57:50

Nicky Alan 57:51
So basically, right. Okay. This is what happens is layman’s terms, like give it to me in layman’s terms, it’s not worth doing at all. So you’re going with your soul cluster and your soul guides? And they say, right, what do you want to learn this time around? So obviously, I don’t know what I was thinking. I said, I would like to learn complete loss, please, so that I can then show people how to get back because obviously, my job’s always been a spiritual advisor, even from 1452 I wasn’t none. So there’s been some spiritual thing going on the whole time. Okay, then. So you want to lose everything to yesterday? Am I also and you know, what’s it called? trying to think of the book in a minute, the prophecies sourcing, setting prophecies, thank you, darling. Again, bepro for getting silicene prophecies, it’s a bit like that. So I got and then when I break down, you come and help me that will help you. And then if you come in at that time, and so you’re planning with your soul cluster, how to get out of that situation or what you were injured. So for instance, some some it’s like, for instance, I’ve had babies come to me and say, I didn’t want to do another lifetime but all my subclass to date so I thought I’d go up and I’ll be their guide to doing it. You know, so this is why we lose babies and why we lose young children when we lose people that we think what the hell and sometimes it’s even down to karmic connections with a previous life why they choose to go back early. I don’t know. But we asked for all of our i can i can imagine now Exactly. That’s my day. What I can pick out what I asked for this. I don’t think so. Yeah, eight, because when you go back up, it’s only because I’m more aware of it. And most people aren’t that this is a speck of salt and ocean of soul infinity. Yeah, this little life is so insignificant compared to what we enjoy with our soul cluster and 100% that we go up and we connect with the people that we love and miss here are all my family’s gone apart. From one arm to one uncle of some brother or sister, it will open up to spirit world, those who want to go early. So I talk to them and they go, yeah, yeah, yeah, I’m really glad you’re having a lovely time whenever you can help me. I can’t, you know, I have these conversations. I keep it real with them and talk to them. Sufis still alive. Yeah. Right. But they say, well, you chose it. We’re just gonna wait for you to come back up now.

Brian Smith 1:00:21
Okay, so I’ve got two things I have to say. So one is, I talked about contrast souls. So do you think dick is a contrast old soul that he did? Did you plan for him to be in your life? Okay.

Nicky Alan 1:00:32
Yes. And I thank him for doing it. Because if he had done that, I would not be sitting here now talking to you.

Brian Smith 1:00:38
That’s that’s a that’s a tough concept. That’s that’s a deep concept for people to grasp, right? Because this guy, and when people read the book, and I encourage everybody read the books, fantastic. You look at this guy, and you want to hate him. You want to hate on this guy? Oh, no. Yeah,

Nicky Alan 1:00:54
I know, how mad is that? Because I hated him with vengeance at the time. Yeah, hated him. But because of everything I’ve learned and been shown, I now thank him for his. And you know, what the chapter he is to my ex. They all taught me things that now I know, showed me what bad spikes, so is it and how much lack of self love I had for myself. And so him doing that I thank him. Totally.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:19
Thank you

Nicky Alan 1:01:19
totally. Because if he hadn’t done that, and I’ve done that I’ve looked at what would happen if you didn’t have an accident, I would be still working my butt off to get money in paying for everything or being completely disregarded and completely taken for granted not locked properly. And I’ll be in a space of just enduring my life without awakening myself. Being this you know, Nicky Allen person, and don’t get me wrong. I don’t want people to think that you know, all the shows I did everything I did. Was it me being fake? Absolutely. Not very spiritual side was 100%. I’ve always wanted to help people since I was a child. The differences though, I wasn’t working it myself. Yeah. So now turn, it’s making me go goosey. quite emotional, sorry. But now turning it on myself. gives me the purity to give it out to other people, and try and bring peace to their lives. Because really, I can’t I am not by any means taking away the fact that we go through hell when we lose people, when we experience any type of loss is absolutely life. Oh my god, it’s so big. And that’s why I’m so passionate and wanting to bridge that and bring the awareness to the spirit world. People, yes, we never can physically get them back. But if we have some spiritual hope, belief system, they’re still with us and not live for that. But no, they’re still there. And that will be reunited. My job’s done. If I get one person, I’m standing on that my job’s done. And so for me to be able to give that out now and say, you know, they go, how do you know that? How do I know that? This is my story. This is what I was shown. And I’m telling you, you’re not alone. And I’m telling you take it or leave it people could possibly think, Oh, this is all a bunch of lies. And it’s all a lovely story. Why am I going to be writing these entries in when I could hardly hold a pen? And no, sometimes I’d be literally I woke up. There’s a photo that I’ve put out where I want to cover my I refused to open a couple of days. And it was terrific. And so I’m trying to write with one eye because I know that there was something that I was going to have to be doing in the future to help people and it was me almost going through the sufferance, to then say, I’ve been there and this is how I can help you to get out of it. Yeah, so so contract. Thank you very much dick for you coming in. And

Brian Smith 1:03:42
the other thing I asked you, you know, you mentioned early people that they come in and leave early my daughter passed at 15. And

Unknown Speaker 1:03:50
the backgrounds Yes,

Brian Smith 1:03:50
my daughter. Yeah.

Nicky Alan 1:03:53
You know what I did what I expressly did not want to know about your personal life and in case anything came up. But I have obviously watched a lot of your interviews with people. And so she is a shining beacon of light around you. But I tell you what, with her she’s got this naughty little mixie energy, so she will move things or hype things. Because she loves you guys. Oh man, I’m not there. Right. She’s like, she’s got this bright vibrant energy of being mixing Okay, and I knew that was her I didn’t want to start getting into the NIC yellow medium show all the rest of it, but I don’t know anything about you, but I know that your loss from seeing her not it’s obvious that she’s in the background. But she has got this mixie wanting to make you laugh energy. So she doesn’t come through as I’m Okay daddy. She’s like, right Daddy, what can I do next make you laugh or really wind you up? That’s your energy. Okay. And she I tell you what else she does, and I don’t have ever been told this before. But she again is such an old soul. You’re an old soul. You’re an animal. Soul contract. You’re an old soul cluster. And so with your daughter I don’t like keep seeing Bambi keep seeing Bambi but Disney Bambi unless about Anyway, she is, um, Disney stuff kicks in Disney stuff. But she is someone that also I believe it because I keep going looking at her as I’m looking at you, right? And she is also someone that helps young people when they go over there she isn’t. She’s the most selfless girl you know. And there will be no teenagers are teenagers at the end of the day, but she was selfless and she was an old she is an old soul. Yeah, very wise in her years, and very Chat Chat back. You could never win an argument with her absolutely win an argument with her. Like, well, why? Because No, I just said no, I actually want you to explain that. Oh, my goodness. She’s totally Gottman. No, yeah, and such a way of life. And don’t ever think that she grieves her life. Or she’s worried that she went back early because she is so strongly manifesting in your life. So many ways. I don’t think a day doesn’t go by when you see some sort of synchronicity that connects you to her

Brian Smith 1:06:09
every day. Yeah, pretty much every day. Yeah, pretty pretty, pretty much every day. And the thing is, I always blame her for the slide because I could just see Shana planning this whole thing out. And and she we wouldn’t know it till after she passed. But you know, it felt we got signs that she was going to be here for a long time. It’s just what she she lived her life. So you were talking about so planning, I’m like, I blame her. I blame her for this and for leaving me here. So I totally

Nicky Alan 1:06:35
get that. But that’s your human emotion connection there isn’t it and that’s never going to most probably lead to, you know, there’s no magic in what we’re doing here. You know, I’m in the best place I’ve ever been. But you have someone close to me died or passed away. Of course, my emotional part of my ecosystem. It’s gonna be incomplete. You know, tragic hell. But that’s why I made sure that I mentioned the passing of my mom. It wasn’t the fundamental message of the reunion with the families. Also the fact that we view death even though it’s devastating and it’s full. straightaway, we were already wonder where she is like someone flying away on holiday on vacation, or when is it landed yet? I wonder if they’re having fun. And then start getting the synchronicities, start getting signs. And it’s never done in is it? It’s never going to replace holding your dog with your arms again. Never. Yeah. However, if there is just something special that happens that you think she’s done that, then I’m telling you that is surely got to be better than being a skeptic or bereft in your grave, and thinking they’ve gone forever. Yeah, you know, I personally, I personally want to go well, don’t don’t believe it. I know 100% that they are here and they do the most amazing things. And she is an absolute beacon of light. And I can imagine that you do blame her for that.

Brian Smith 1:07:57
And I say they say that jokingly. I know. Yeah. Yeah, I know. Like, you know, so you’re out of here. You’re having fun, and I got to stay here. Where I located? It’s like I still have to work. I want to ask you one another question about the book. You mentioned lots of pulling cards apparently had it like a tarot card deck or an angel deck that you use. So obviously, you you believe in that strongly.

Nicky Alan 1:08:26
I didn’t. I didn’t I just saw cards for cards to be honest with you, my family, but these are the ones Okay, sighs

Unknown Speaker 1:08:34

Nicky Alan 1:08:35
And basically, and I used to, I used to muck around with cards and tarot cards as a child, because they’re always on the table in our house in our house at my Nan’s and my Auntie’s house, which is a really good tarot reader. And I just saw cards with cards. And I even in my early days, because I was so strong on the medium link, I used to tell people to throw their cards away, because I wanted them to work with their intuition and what they’re blending and channeling abilities. And it wasn’t until I lost that connection, because I was in such deep grief. And I’d lost that connection. And the only thing again, that would give me hope, was looking at the cards. It was just one thing that time try and give me some sort of thing to aspire to. Because obviously my dad said it be okay. And so what happened was I got these cards, and I started putting them out asking the question every single time they answered me, so I found that they were inspiring me to pick certain cards or cards or just fly out and land. And they answered every single thing. And you know, as you as you know, from the book, I basically moved on on the turn of three cards. Shall I move house? Am I ready to go now? Am I ready to be back in the world? And then it was you know, I think it’s Archangel Michael, again. What you know, when you read the synchronicities of Michael, how the family my house, Making the district So Michael now. Yeah. And it’s like, you know, Archangel Michael time for new change to grace changes new home this Reno phase of your life is over move on. And that was it. I phoned up the state agent straight after and so realty agent and said, right, I’m moving on in somewhere else. And that was on most cars because they’ve never and they still they still don’t ever change. They’re always completely well ever I ask, they answer. And it’s incredible. And I found a power in them definitely. So I think it’s because that higher power inspires us when to stop and look at a car or they will come and literally flick them out and say test one you need to look at. So they know know that I’ve got this massive and massive love for them. So when I’ve started doing card readings on YouTube, a lot of my old students like, hey, hang on a minute, you said don’t use the cards, right? But I love them now because they helped me to get a really good script on where I need to go to help people and advice. And so many people, I don’t know how it works. I’m doing readings on YouTube, and people go oh my god, you just it’s like a personal reading. So I don’t know if it’s people are inspired by coming because they know that those cards can make sense for them. I don’t know what the magic is surrounding them. But there is some power in these cards. Without a doubt. They just literally are never wrong. In all the years I’ve used them. So my dream is to have my own cards, my own deck. Oh, yeah.

Brian Smith 1:11:36
I’m sure that will happen. So um, what did what would you like people to know about the book about about your life? But if you could say one thing to people that are listening right now, what would that one thing be?

Unknown Speaker 1:11:48
Wow. Or in a sentence,

Brian Smith 1:11:52
take as long as you like,

Nicky Alan 1:11:54
I just think as I’ve already kind of skirted over this book is for people, anybody that’s experienced some sort of loss, grief or bereavement. It’s a message of knowing you’re not alone, and a message that you’re stronger than you think. And by surrendering yourself to a universal higher power, you will make it and you will thrive rather than just survive. Guaranteed. As you know, the proof is in the pudding This house is paid for, how did that happen? And literally everything I needed for my disabilities, you know, because I say now I’m okay. There’s no three, sometimes I can be in bed for three weeks, which is great. It’s changing the aspect of your life, changing how you view your situation. So beforehand,

Unknown Speaker 1:12:43
oh god, I’m

Nicky Alan 1:12:44
in bed for three weeks, I could be scuba diving, I could be I could be I could be well, you’re not. So what you’re going to do with that time, I’m going to write a book, I’m going to go on YouTube, I’m going to box it binge it and watch Game of Thrones. I know that I’m happy sitting here. This is great. So you choosing the desert or the Oasis, and again, self love and rectifying all of these self belief systems you have about yourself that there’s so much in the book, there’s so many aspects of spiritual and personal development in there, which I really hope people get and they will take on board.

Brian Smith 1:13:18
I I love what you said there. And you actually answered the question that I was thinking about the whole time. I didn’t ask. Yeah, because I was gonna say, because I finished the book. And I’m like, I get on here with you there and you’re so bright and bubbly. And still the energy comes across. And I’m like, okay, it should end with the miracle healing. She should be totally healed. And it’s going to end with you know, she finds a cure, and she lives happily ever after. Yeah, but I love what you just said, that’s not that’s not the path for you. So, but you’re embracing where you are you still you’re not like this all the time. You could still be in bed for three weeks. But you’re you embrace that. So that was a perfect.

Nicky Alan 1:13:58
No, absolutely. Because, you know, I you know, there’s nothing more than I adore than being on stage and being face to face with people obviously COVID put paid to that anyway. Yeah. However, I used to love touring, and is to go love going to different cultures and going over to different countries. I did a lot of work in Europe and Germany, Spain, and east to adore that time. And again, it’s like, what do you do sit there thinking I can’t do it anymore? And I think No, I can’t do it. And that’s good. And so what I do is I adopt the Oasis version on the desert version of how you want to live. So I have got the most humbling privilege of sitting and talking to a beautiful soul like Yo, who gives out so much strength and hype after you losing that beautiful girl. Right? And you’re here doing your thing. And the more interviews I’m doing, the more I’m connecting with people that are so amazing in their own space. And so for me, my whole projection of thought process will be how lucky am I to be here sitting to goose bumping again. How lucky am I that people prepared to watch me sit in my bed and talk about my esoteric knowledge of the world of the spirit world of the angels? How lucky am I that I’ve got such good friends? And so that’s why do the gratitude. This is what the you know, the prison livings course about, it’s doing the gratitude in the beginning of the day, before I even get out of bed before I even, you know, have to gauge my body to see what’s wrong with me on a given day is gratitude. Always three no means about 30. But I sit and I think what am i grateful for? And it could be the most simplest things. So to me, this accident was the biggest blessing of my life. Because I now sit you know, I remember in the summertime, I would sit and listen to birdsong. And it would make me cry, I was so lucky that I could be sitting in my own garden hearing Birdsong, or, you know, a butterfly would float by and land on my hands, you know, and not done. If you can see, I’ve got my big my beautiful friend bought this for me, because I have a beat total now. I’m everywhere I go. Yeah. And, and I think, well, I’m special. I’m looked after I’m not I’m not alone. How amazing is that? And then I think I’ve now got the ability to show the people they’re not alone. How lucky am I? And so that’s how do I leave? And you know, and lots of people did say, Oh, we thought it’d be happier rafter you’ll be well, Sonos isn’t a cure story. This is not that used to so get on my nerves, because people used to send me books or read this. And if I could read is, oh, I’ve got the cure for it. No, you haven’t. Yeah, stop selling all this crap. And be real about it be real is rubbish. It is soul destroying, it’s still your life and nobody cares. So you’ve now got to get up and take hold of it take control and say, right, what can I do to help myself. So I get I’ve got all sorts of mixes holistic therapies, essential oils, and for the first time in my life, I love myself and treat myself all day long, to what is best for me. And that is a beautiful gift to have. And that’s what I want to share with everybody because I would so much, you know, I don’t care for this again, because I am so happy and fulfilled and whole inside. I got a guy stuff where we take it to the spirit world with me. It’s stuff, you know, and this is what people got alone. It’s like so many people write to me and say, Oh, you know, I’m with my husband. I don’t really love him. But you know, we we’ve got a lovely house. We’ve got Who cares? You’re not taking it with you. You’re not taking it with you. And so, you know, I’ll be happy in a shack. Yeah, sometimes I’ve got myself love and the people I love around I care about any material aspects at all. I really don’t care. And so people just say, Yeah, but you know, you’ve lost it. Yeah, exactly. And I’m happier than I’ve ever been in my life. And I’ve had literally I did have a lot of money coming in at the time. It wasn’t really, you know, fussed about, but I had it and I bought some outrageous things went to Florida for three weeks over Christmas and New Year. Your cells are amazing over there. Yeah, I bought two suitcases of designer stuff. And, you know, I’ve been there and done it, and I wasn’t happy. Yeah. I’ve stood in a concert suite in sandals, you know, in Turks and Caicos with a butler and have some combat looking over the ocean. And I’m like, I’ve never been so miserable. And all my life. Yeah. Material does not feed you. You feed yourself and then watch the universe show you what you deserve.

Brian Smith 1:18:26
Yeah, awesome. Nikki, I am so glad that you reached out to me. I really enjoyed meeting you. I love the book. So I want to tell everybody again, it’s me and myself and I it’s by Nikki Allen. Her last name is a la en. You can reach Nikki at Nikki allen.co.uk. She has a YouTube channel which is the bedroom guru which I’m going to go subscribe to right away. She’s got a seven week spiritual living course called prison living. I still get that through your website.

Nicky Alan 1:18:54
Yes, that’s right. Yeah, you can get it through the website.

Brian Smith 1:18:57
Yeah, I it’s been really I can say I love the book. It’s been great meeting you. I appreciate you. You putting our energy out. So you can go No, go rest now.

Unknown Speaker 1:19:10
And I’ll probably feet up.

Brian Smith 1:19:11
Yeah. So by the time this by the time this comes out, then the book should be available everywhere.

Unknown Speaker 1:19:17
Yes, it will be.

Brian Smith 1:19:18
Yeah, yeah. That’s awesome. So

Nicky Alan 1:19:20
yeah, something new as well. So Amazon, it’s on Amazon Barnes and Noble john Hancock. She’s pretty much everywhere. Yeah, I really hope people enjoy it. Please let me know how much you enjoyed it. All these people listening. And Brian. You’re just lovely. You’re not only handsome and gorgeous. But your lovely toes. Thank you so much for having me. Allow me to share my story. Thank you so

Brian Smith 1:19:40
much. Thanks for being here.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

I met Sally through Facebook. We have a mutual Facebook friend who communicates with his daughter in spirit via several methods. Sally always intuitively knew she was cared for. But, about eleven years ago she went through a dark night of the soul that propelled her spiritual development forward. She began connecting on a deeper level and studying the afterlife. At the time Sally had no idea her son Tommy would tragically and suddenly pass in an automobile accident in May 2019.

Now, all of her hard work would be required to navigate this journey of grief. Tommy began communicating with Sally immediately. Then, in August of this year, Tommy found a new way to communicate with Sally that was beyond her wildest dreams.




Brian Smith 0:01
Hey there, everybody. This is Brian back with another episode of grief to growth I’ve got with me today a woman named Sally Stacy and Sally and I just met this week and she has a fascinating story. I’m looking forward to you guys hearing it. Let me just read a short introduction to who Sally is. Sally was made aware of unseen forces that can guide and support us when she was young. And then 11 years ago, she had an existential crisis that sent her on a path of self discovery, healing and spiritual connection. And then what happened last year in May of 2019, her son Tommy passed.

And that actually led her to leaning into her spiritual connection for guidance, strength and comfort while she was simultaneously going through the grieving process. But Sally experienced a connection with the sun pretty much immediately. And that connection ox expanded to include her guides and others A few months later. So Sally started getting signs from Tommy like, right from the very, very beginning, we’re going to talk about some of the signs, and then recent development where she started a whole brand new way of communication with Tommy. So with that, I want to introduce Sally Stacy and say, welcome to Griff to growth. Thanks, Brian. It’s good to be here. Yeah, it’s really great to meet you, as we just we just talked a couple days ago.

And we were talking about a mutual friend of ours, someone that we both know, Marcus Lange, who gets signs from his daughter, and spirit, and you commented on there. And that’s how you and I met and you were talking about some of the signs you got. So I said, we’ve got to come on the show and tell us about it. So you said you were saying that you started, you knew there was something going on the spirit world when you were young. So start there and tell me what you what you felt,

Sally Stacey 1:37
okay. And around the age of 12, I had a little trauma happened in my life,

and quite serious trauma, and it was troubling. And we I come from a very tiny island called Guernsey and I would live within a walking distance of the sea. And I would go to the beach with with these issues with my concerns. And I would, you know, look out over the ocean, listen to the waves smell the seaweed. And in my mind, I would think things through the people involved how they were feeling, you know, what I could do to help and, and I never felt alone. You know, I just knew I was

supported for one of a better way I just knew something else existed, it was unseen. And I would often leave the beach, knowing what the next best thing would be to do. And I would do that for years and go to the beach and do that. Without ever thinking what it what it actually construed that it was I was connecting spiritually to whatever was it I never put any thought into it just it was just what I realized that that was about it. But it was something I didn’t carry through into my adult life. Yeah. So you just you felt that connection from a very early age. Yeah. Okay. And then you you had some sort of a crisis or something that that triggered you 11 years ago, what Tell me about that? I did. And, you know, I have lovely family, two beautiful kids. And happily married for over 30 years, we’ve lived in many countries in the world and got to experience many things. And I am, I found myself disappearing down a rabbit hole of emotional pain, and the trauma I mentioned from earlier in my life. And that occurred as a teenager and a little more, a bit later on. I’d sort of done the British thing of brushing it off and getting on with life. And I haven’t seen anybody I’d never dealt with the emotions or anything, I think, you know, they were the the emotions attached to that trauma just laid dormant for a long time. And they would come out in different ways they would in different situations, which created the same sort of fears. They kind of come up and resulted eventually to me, just yeah, having an existential crisis, a dark night of the soul, I reached the point of why am I alive? You know, what is the what is why am I here? I mean, what is the point of this pain is just excruciating. And I realized, you know, at the same time that all the answers leave within, they weren’t external, they were within. And that’s where I had to look. And that’s what I had to discover. And that’s what I had to heal. And,

and that’s what I did for a good couple of years. I worked hard on myself, you know, it’s difficult sometimes to look in the mirror. And that I did, and it was interesting, I had some therapy, great

woman that

helped me get back into my past and face those things, and realize what were triggering, you know, emotions over the years and I’m telling you this because it actually is quite important in growing

such a traumatic loss as a child, you know, those things that you bury because they’re too painful, they don’t go away necessarily, you know, they will just lay dormant and can affect you in all sorts of ways. And so I learned how to deal with the trauma that it occurred how to effectively processing motions, and release them, let them go. And as a result of that, over a couple of years, I, I developed spiritual practices, I began meditating, and prayer, if you want to call it prayer, you know, people often put a religious connotation on prayer. I thought, you know, it wasn’t prayer I just talked. And then it would happen in the mornings, but it was sometimes happened during the day. And during that span of time, before Tommy’s accident, there were a few times where I had knowings, come in, there was one time I was working late at night with my dog and an issue again from a long ago in the past, and when it came up, bought me a lot of pain. I literally wanted to turn it over. So you take this, I don’t want to carry this anymore. I don’t understand it. And out of nowhere, this voice, the check, can’t say is masculine or feminine, literally put knowledge in my markings that I did not know. And it was gone. That was the end of that. And that happened a couple of times, feelings of being surrounded by God or source just a couple of times, I absolutely felt it. And in those years, but nothing, you know, as big as what happened after my son passed. But during that time after, as I healed, I got involved anonymously in helping others that were in tremendous emotional pain. And I joined an online community, it’s not Facebook, it’s a lot of people there. And nobody knows who I am, apart from my first name and my affinity for some flowers. And then, you know, it’s a standing joke in the family. You know, if I was to die the next day, there’d be nobody at the funeral. But there’d be many people around the world that would mourn my loss. And I was just fine with that. I’m quite happy in that type of role. So that’s really the the background story of why, on the day of Tommy’s accident, I’d never felt more spiritually fit on Monday. I was primed for it.

Brian Smith 7:34
Yeah, it’s interesting how life works that way. Right. So we have these traumas. And I think it’s common people bury them and think that they’re buried, but the they seem to always come up at some point in life. And then we go through this dark night of the soul. And then you start work yourself. So tell me about Tommy, what what, what happened with Tommy?

Sally Stacey 7:52
Well, Tommy was Tommy was just such a child, he was shy, more of a listener than a talker. And that was a boy. And he grew into an agile, same way, but people were always drawn to be in his company. And he had a part time job, and where he’d saved his money to go on his backpacking trips each year, different places in the world. And then where he worked, you know, people that would work there, that we didn’t know him socially would, came to me at the funeral and said, You know, he, whenever he was on duty at the same time, as then they would always go and spend five minutes in his company because he always walked away feeling better. And that’s pretty much what he really said there was something quite, quite special about him. And do I think he knew what was going to happen? No, I don’t, certainly not at a conscious level. And he was very happy. Pi gift, he was just happy. He’s still in school taking degree had a part time job, he was traveling, he grown into his skin as an adult. So he wasn’t quite as shy as he had been growing up. But um, and he was loved by everybody wicked sense of humor, and he had a maturity well beyond his years, he kind of knew the important things in life. And he didn’t chase materialism or whatever, he earned money to go and explore a new country, or to spend time with his friends and so on. Lovely but so that’s the backdrop to him. And he has a system just under two years older than he is on that day. And he would heat the night before he was due to come home and watch the last episode of Game of Thrones with his sister. And because he was coming home, not going out with his mates, he took his dad’s car and for whatever reason he didn’t come home. And you know, waking in the morning just assumed he was sleeping over at a friend’s house. He often does not a big deal apart from the fact that it’s unusual for him to do that if you had his dad’s car, but you know, so be it. And I got up and I went to take the dogs out to use the bathroom side of the house. I have a big affinity with animals, all living creatures. Excluding British house spiders and mosquitoes. I think you’re working progress but, and always greet them in my day, no matter if it’s a lizard or, you know, whatever. And I went to the side of the house and there was this huge turtle enormous, the biggest turtle I’d ever seen. And we locked eyes. We just locked stairs. Mm hmm. And I went cold, I went ice cold. And I’ve never felt so disturbed in my life. Very, very unsettled. I didn’t know what it was trying to convey. But I didn’t want to know it. And, and I just stared at it. And then I broke the gaze got the dogs and went inside the house. That’s never happened before. And and that happens probably about an hour after Tommy had passed, it was going to be another four hours before we knew. That was about an hour after he passed. And basically he was coming home 6am in the morning, he’s going too fast. Distracted came off the road hit a tree, the car flipped and burst into flames. And that happened. So he he’d already passed an hour before that turtle moment. And I didn’t think too much more of it. And ironically, I went online to this group where I supported whole bunches of people and did what I did every day. And that day, I put in posted a load of Viktor Frankl quote, quotes, and an even bigger idea and Man’s Search for Meaning. And so before I knew of the accidents, and those quotes, I would go a year later on his first anniversary back to the group and see those quotes that I posted on that day before I knew of Tommy’s passing or is relevant today in my life as they were there. And then a few familiar but you know, one of the most famous Quincy houses between stimulus and response, there is a space. And in that space, you have the power to choose your reaction. And in your reaction, there’s the opportunity for growth.

And that’s huge. And I chose you know, I did that and talk to my mother via Skype. The morning I had no inkling just assumed that we got a text from my husband, Kevin, Is he back yet? No. And the next thing I know, the police were knocking at the door. And that was about four hours after the turtle. And he was it occurred a mile away from home and an intersection just down the road really that you passed all the time. And as you know, it’s I don’t care how prepared you think you are for anything in life that demolishes you.

Brian Smith 13:11

Sally Stacey 13:14
That day. The shop, Foreman’s kicks in the pain and sharp lose was going to ebb and flow for months but on the on that first day I I went into the room about an hour after the police had left and and it looked like somebody that was due to return, you know, the bed made and there’s a towel on the floor and just saw made his bed. And that’s the first time I remember talking to him. I made his bed and that is the mother mode. And I was reassuring him. I said, I’m not sure where you are in now but just know we’re gonna be okay. A lot of pain, you’re gonna see a lot of tears, your dad and me and Phoebe. That will be alright, I promise you that. And I’m hoping you’re okay. Yeah, my first conversation with him shortly after the police left. And that was going to be a reoccurring sort of reassurance talk, because I knew he existed, because 10 years before my father passed. And my brother and sister wanted to pay respects to the body etc. And so I went within the three years and went to my I saw the body and I remember thinking as I was looking, that’s not my dad.

Brian Smith 14:33

Sally Stacey 14:33
that expression wasn’t his it was that wasn’t him and I knew that was just the carcass almost? Yeah, not him. And two months later, was two months after that. We were in Peru. We gone. We were going to tracks and Machu Picchu and we were climatized and to the altitude and I gone on top of a hilltop and it was over his birthday. And I saw this tiny little white.in the sky and I thought it was a plane and international plane flying overhead. And then I realized it was moving in a, an odd, odd way. And I initially thought that planes in trouble. And then over the seats of space of 10 minutes, it actually came and landed right in front of me. And it was a white feather.

Brian Smith 15:21
Oh, wow. Wow,

Sally Stacey 15:22
no other birds in the sky have the fate of the sky and where I was, and I have the feather friend. And that proved to me, you know, we lived in Florida. My dad was backing ginsey in here, I was in Peru on the top of the hill. He touched base with me, you know, it didn’t matter where his body was, in matter where I lived. I could be anywhere. And he came in touch base. I didn’t pursue a connection with him. That was very special. And I did what it was meant to, and I just carried on with life. But memory came back. Once this happened with Tommy. And so I knew he existed. And the following day, the turtle experience came back. And I remembered you know, his favorite toy growing up stuffed toy was a turtle. One of the last presents he bought me this mug and drinking out of it, school turtles covering it. Ricky with his dad, and a new, lovely friend that I’ve friendship that I’ve recently developed with someone called Raven. She tells me that the turtle represents the Mother Earth and to her. What happened to me that morning was Mother Earth offering no condolences for what had happened. And that’s that’s beautiful. That really resonated with me when she when she told me that but so that we have it. And so how

Brian Smith 16:46
old was Sammy when he passed?

Sally Stacey 16:48
He was 2121 Okay, yeah. And I six days later, I went to the crash site. Because I knew his friends had set up a shrine. And I was aware of the conditions of what had happened. And I wanted to see the shrine so I can find them at his funeral. And there’s so much car wreckage still left there. Multan, personal possessions and so on is just mind blowing. I sent my brother back to get some boxes. And again, I remember I talked to Tommy the whole way through, I was reassuring him I’m looking at this stuff thinking, what was it like for him? And I said, I hope you’re right. You’re seeing me doing this, don’t worry, we’re going to be fine. And those sort of conversations were happening every day. And the funeral was packed. People came from my quiet boy, a listener more than a talker with a wicked sense of humor packed that place. People came from out of state that people that he’d never met that had tattoos. You know, his name people that he gained with since he was little. They just, they were just in total shock. This guy who touched so many lives. And and I wish, you know, ironically, when you think it’s a funeral of your child, it was actually a very special day. And when I look back on it, I look back at it. And with fond memories, ironically, um,

Brian Smith 18:13
yeah, you know, it’s interesting, because you say that you don’t think he knew that he was he was going to transition early. But as I talk to parents who have had kids that have that have, you know, died early, it seems like almost universally, they’re special kids there, there are people that touch people’s souls. And you know, so my, my daughter was the same way her service was was packed. She was 15. And she’d only been in public school for like, two years. So, you know, I was like, I don’t think anybody would even know she was but you know, there were there were just tons of people there. So there’s, I think there’s something about these kids that they may not know, at a conscious level, but I think at a soul level, I think they kind of know,

Sally Stacey 18:56
actually, and you just made me remember. And what was interesting to me that the time was, firstly, he hadn’t chosen his subjects for when he went back to school. I mean, it was almost school’s almost down for the summer, in May, and he still hadn’t chosen his time was really ticking and he just hadn’t done it. And secondly, he still hadn’t decided where he was backpacking in the summer, he was kind of talking about Australia, maybe New Zealand this time than me. He was due to be going in, you know, he had the money saved. And he hadn’t actually gone ahead and like in previous years, he would plot the routes, the countries and so on. He done nothing. Interesting, interesting on that front, I think. I don’t think I just feel he didn’t know on a conscious level. I think at all, but a subconscious level. Perhaps you didn’t do that planning for the very reasons you say?

Brian Smith 19:54
Yeah, well, my daughter made a comment like a few weeks before she passed. She was playing with her sister. We were up in Colombo a couple hours from where we live at my brother’s house. And she made a comment she’s playing with her sister and her cousins, like when I die like to be cremated and buried under a tree. And she’s 15. And she was healthy. And we didn’t learn that till after she had passed. And we were talking to my daughter about what should we do in terms of arrangements that we, you know, barrier, everybody cremated or whatever. And we decided for cremation. And my other daughter said, yeah, that’s what Shayna wanted. And we’re like, well, how did you know this? And she told us the story. So I don’t again, I’ll let you know on a conscious level. But that was an odd thing for a 15 year old to say.

Sally Stacey 20:36
Yes. Yeah, very much. So. And it’s interesting, you prompt me to remember something else about six weeks or so before the accident, for whatever reason, he and I talked about the afterlife. In not in a family, you know, my husband is a Catholic, and I would just class myself as spiritual. My daughter has her own concepts of spirituality. She’s very spiritual in our own way. My son at that age, just couldn’t wrap his head around anything existing afterwards. And we had to talk and he knew about my my practices and what I did, and he said, mine, I don’t want to hurt you. I just can’t see it. I think just when we die, that’s it. And I remember, it was such a lovely conversation, me looking at him thinking, I think you’ll probably change your mind. You know, as you get older, I’m sure kids go through that of not quite believing that can be your only 21. So that’s really what he he died. That was his perception at that time. And when the signs became obvious, one of my very first conversations with him was that you were surprised.

Unknown Speaker 21:47

Brian Smith 21:48
So you knew you knew right away, because of your preparation, you had done your spiritual practice, you knew that Tommy wasn’t gone? And you were you were speaking to him, saying, you know if you can hear me or if you can see me, so when did you start getting signs that he was actually hearing you?

Unknown Speaker 22:03
Well, first of all, the

Sally Stacey 22:04
funny thing is that the funeral, we played the who, Tommy, can you hear me? Oh, yeah, because a lot of his friends aren’t religious. And so we had a prayer. In the middle, we have moments of silence, we played that. And it was a young person’s funeral. You know, we play the Spotify music beforehand, and so on. And I every day after the funeral, I would go in the garden first thing in the morning, and I would sing that first line, I would look at the sky and just gently sing the first line. And then I would talk to him about his dad, his sister, me, the animals, anything and everything. And little Dane would start with that line. And I, you know, I dance the dance of denial and doubt. And is it real? As many of us do with science? He sent he got me on the third week. I yeah. And it’s this is an interesting survey, because it tells it explains something relating to signs that happened a little later on. If nobody had been in his car, he’d been driving his dad’s car at night, nobody been in his car. And I suddenly thought, you know, I ought to check it out. In case there’s any food in there. This is Florida. I said to Kevin, I’m just going to go and check in and go and have a look in the car. And he said, we’ll turn the engine over while you’re there, just to make sure everything’s okay. So took the keys, and I sat in the seat and his personal possessions of his pens and T shirts and, and so on, and tears streaming down my face. It was, you know, it was such a painful experience. And I turn the engine over, as Kevin told me to, and then I thought, you know, I wonder because whenever I drove the car, I just got a he and I shared that car for quite some time. And I would always listen to CDs and he would always turn the radio on. I wondered what he’d been listed last listen to and I turned the radio on. And the song was by Mumford and son, and I’m a mom. I’m English Mumford and son, and it was I will wait I will wait for you. As the as the song is playing, I felt the car just filled with his presence. My breath is taken away the tears is stopped and the song is belting out the chorus and out of the car and surely not No, that can’t be and I walked around to the back of the house tonight. So it’s put my arms on the fence there to think it through and I felt a presence to my to my left and I glanced over and there’s a cardinal sat on the fence where my answer to staring at me and that took me over a cane and that’s when I made the joke to him about being surprised that he continued to exist but um, the big one for me and I wrote about it online was at six weeks I saw him Yep. appeared before me. I’ve been to the funeral home that day. And he had inadvertently taught me more about the state of Thomas body than I had known about. And it was horrible. It was terrifying and really upsetting and I came home. Now, I cleared it out of my system on the way home, trust me, I shouted and sobbed and whatever, as I drove home that night, I sat outside under the stars, and I talked for him for a couple of hours, and about anything and everything. And at one point, I did mention about what the funeral directors certain I was just concerned because I’ve started reading afterlife books by now. And a lot, say that goes, they leave the body, they look back and see their body. And I was really concerned if he had done that would have been very traumatizing. And so I wanted, I asked, I thanked him for the signs that I’ve been given. And I said you if it’s possible, could you just let me know that you’re okay that you’re not traumatized? If you did, you know, actually see the body and then Okay, you know, I brace myself for something happening out there for you know, but it was just a normal night breezes and night noises. And I finished I was very peaceful as I always was after these talks I came in. And I started just to tidy things up, ready to turn in for the night. And as I turned in the family room area, there’s a small hallway that goes to the living room, the sitting room area. And he just went, he was there, huh. And then I think he was as fast as he came. He didn’t graduate materialized. He was just there. He was just gone. And then he was wearing his greens, I can still remember it to this day green sweatshirt like shorts, he had one one foot on the last of the stairs. And he was smiling, looking directly into my eyes and smiling. And

well, I had no idea that could even be done. At this stage. I didn’t have a Facebook account and had no contact with any other parents. And I’d met one person locally. And that was it. So at this stage, I was pretty much doing this on my own. And I’m grateful for that actually, those three months that I had no real contact with with others. I knew from what had happened to me what I needed to do. A my connection to spirit was based on just unconditional love. The God I knew wasn’t judgmental, he didn’t punish. So I knew I had to lean into my beliefs, lean into my connection, for guidance, for strength for comfort, to help me and help my family get through this. And at the same time, I needed to honor my grief, I needed to feel everything that needed to be felt and honor it. So in those three months, that’s really what I did. And you know, try to help with the family to help see us through, leaned into my grief and leaned into my connection. And without having any and started reading as my connection to a building. I started reading books and and by the time I came online, I I was connecting daily. I had a daily connection, I’d seen you my third in the signs, which is wonderful. And then I I became aware of how how many people were not getting those songs. And then it became a quest for me of why, yeah, how can and how can I help these people and I was a closet. person so far as my connection was concerned for the first few months online. I didn’t tell anybody I had connected, I dove into the saddest places, most painful places, and I use every life tool that I could to try and help pull those people out. Yeah. You know, your mind muscles. Your thought muscles are like physical muscles, the more they’re exercise, the stronger they get. So the more you think about that one day, the more hold it will have on your mind, and the more it will affect you emotionally. Those are the kind of things I would go in and talk about, not about my connection I and it was because not because I was scared of what people would think I was really sensitive to those parents that weren’t connecting. I didn’t understand why and the last thing I wanted to do was make anybody feel less than right. And what happened and in eight months later, seven eight months after he passed I decided I get a medium reading I didn’t need one in fact asked me Would you mind if I got one? No way connecting this issue I didn’t want insulting him thinking all this isn’t good enough. But I’d really like to have more of a two way thing if that’s okay. And he then sent me he he wrote me a text he wrote me a line on my phone. I need to speak to you Sigmund that was that was the first time he did that. And so I saw two mediums which I won’t recommend they were mixed. And they were some good stuff in them, but also some stuff that opened up a can of worms on on how he died I had because he materialized in front of me and the Replace reports and the autopsy, etc. I put back to bed, I move past it, and they do a couple of things with now was swimming around in my mind again, which is annoying. So I said to Tommy, I went outside, talk to him, I said, Look, I’m going to get a third medium, because I need now to put what they’ve raised

Brian Smith 30:39

Sally Stacey 30:40
I booked her immediately. And she was phenomenal. within three minutes, she bought him through by his first name. And then she said, and he tells me there’s some confusion over how he died. Just incredible. And and it said that that reading is interesting, because firstly, she put that to bed. And what had happened, she told me was the other mediums had psychically put themselves in the accident scenario, and we’re generating their own thoughts on what happened, as opposed to what really did. It was interesting. And I can see how that could be done. After the reading, she and I talked, she gave me an opportunity to tell her about my own connections. And partway through the reading, she kept going on about music. She’s showing me music, you’re creating music. Did you did you create the music for the funeral? I said, No, that’s one area that I didn’t have anything to do with. So no, he’s definitely showing it something that you did. And it has to do with music. And it was only after the reading when we were talking pinkley what he was meaning. And it’s important from a science perspective. All those months, I’ve been saying, He’s just amazing. You know, how he’s creating these signs, how he’s doing these things. It’s just incredible. And what he was saying was, it wasn’t just him. It was me too. I created the music in that sign that I told you about three weeks after the accident. I didn’t just randomly turn on the radio. And well, there’s a song and I connected with Tommy, he planted a thought in my mind to turn the radio on. And I said to the enough at that stage, probably because of you know, many years of connection to get it and turn you on.

Brian Smith 32:31
Yeah, I want to I want to interrupt you just for a second. I think it’s really important what you said, because I I’m an engineer, so I’m always learning how these signs work. Right? So do they? Do they put the music on? Do they tell the DJ to play the song at a certain time? are they putting thoughts in our head and what you just said, I got goosebumps when you said it because that’s what my my impression, I think they put they put thoughts in our head on the radio on now turn this on now. And a lot of things. The thing about science, science is the timing and recognizing it. So like you saw the turtle, some people might just say, Hey, I just saw a turtle. But you put that together as you thought back on it or seeing the cardinal. So I think a lot of times when people say I’m not getting signs, I think they’re just not seeing them. They’re just

Sally Stacey 33:16
not receptive to them. One of the questions further down the line that I asked me. And as, as my knowings increased, my knowings got stronger as I realized that man out of the equation, it just expanded as I trusted it. And I myself with it expanded and expanded. And I’ll just say actually from a musical perspective. Oh, quite a while later, I’m sat in the garden. My husband’s out in the car. And the knowing comes to from Tommy get dad to turn the car radio on. I think, am I really gonna risk doing this and being silly, but it doesn’t come through his voice. Great, right? So I text Kevin and I say what time you coming home and he says around six ish. And I say okay, well when you get in the car, just turn the car radio on, but don’t change the channel. And that was it because he knows I’m connected with Tommy. And next thing I know he gets in the car to come home and he sends me a photo of the radio and what’s playing and he’s t shirt. The band and the song that we’re playing on the radio are identical to the the song on the T shirt. He’s wearing AC DC back to black and put that and now the thing here is Tommy couldn’t do that directly to his dad. Dad can’t wrap his head around all of this. He believes it’s happening but he wouldn’t have got that but I got it and and he went ahead and did and as that was an interesting

Brian Smith 34:49
thing. I’m thinking Sally as we’re having this conversation is you’re talking all the prep work you did and you’re being open and your and your receptiveness to this, you know, just in general before Tommy passed, so That you are kind of a clear channel, I guess, you know, even when he passed because you were you were open to it and I, I just had something happen to me like, just two weeks ago I was I was I walk every morning. And I was like when I go home, I’m gonna make pancakes. And I hardly ever make pancakes because it’s just my, my wife and myself. And I used to make them for the girls. When they were here we were there was like a special thing we’ve done Saturday morning. So I come home, I made pancakes for breakfast that morning. Like two days later, I had a reading with the medium. And she brings up pancakes. And she says, used to make pancakes for the girls, and you would put chocolate chips. And Seamus, that was really weird, because I guess I’d never make pancakes. But I was out that day. I just had to stop when you get home make pancakes. And then so that’s, it’s weird how that all works.

Sally Stacey 35:45
My call radio signs got massive. Yeah. And I’ll tell because this ties in with prayer and sending love out. And on. towards his anniversary, my daughter had put the compilation together videos and photos, and then put elton john song Rocket Man to it. And I played it for the first time in the garden, I sat in the garden, I’m listening. And I’ve done this before with different people. And I know it’s received and I poured my love to Tommy into the universe as I listened to the song over and over, I just poured it and poured it and poured it out there. And the song finished and you know, I had tears and so on. And the knowing was to go and switch the car radio on. And I went to switch the car radio on and the song playing was rocket. And within the song, Elton John’s Rocket Man is actually quoted in the soil. And immediately afterwards, that’s how easily you’re heard. And, and not just with my son, somebody’s husband passed, and there was such a touching video of the two of them that happened very close to the passing and I went in the garden, I was so touched by it. And I pulled that same love into the universe for this couple. And for this person that had passed, put it out to him. And he came to visit he was one of my first people outside of Tommy that came to see me and with a feather and a message for his wife. And that that that again is how you how effective prayer and pouring your love out can be absolutely as received.

Brian Smith 37:26
Okay, before before we start you said you wanted me to remind you there were some signs you want to talk about?

Sally Stacey 37:31
Well, just to show a couple I wanted just a couple I wanted one from a personality perspective because they really do take their personalities to favorite signs is belongs to this little guy this is an official Manchester United take you there. Okay. And I it was on a Sunday I was due to god it was Calvin chin had a sale going on at one. And I was due to go when it was 20 minutes to one. And I already said in the morning I was going to him and and I get I’m due to go and pick up a streamer later on in the afternoon from Home Depot. And I get this tournament. I have to go and pick up the streamer now and hear it. No, I can’t come pick the streamer up now. I have something I’m doing at one o’clock. And thought came back. Literally arguing with thoughts. I have a commitment. And it just got stronger. And now I’m curious. And I know that then sessions are taped and they’ll be able to see it later. Yeah, I okay. So I told my husband, I’m gonna get a Home Depot right now and go and pick up the strimmer. So I left the crash site is you know, just down the road and on your turn right at that intersection to go to Home Depot. And a bit as I’m going down the road, I get the feeling I need to go to the crash site. So I go to the crash site park on the grass verge. And I’m told to turn the radio on so I turn it on. And the song playing is photograph looking and thinking photograph and I checked my phone for On this day in previous years was there a relevancy and to see anything so I just take a photo through the windscreen of the the area where there is a shrine where the cash pressure could be and then if I toggle to go to Home Depot, straight away, I know that I’ve not done the right thing that comes through as a big big feeling. I’ve missed something. So I get a Home Depot and I pick up the stringer and on the way back I go back park on the grass verge I think I photograph well maybe I’m supposed to take a photo of the flowers etc. Around the lumpers maybe there are some new flowers there. And I’m supposed to take a photo so off I go get out of the car walk over in between the flowers. This little teddy bear has been tucked still with a cardboard. Wow. Is there and I know instinctively that I’m supposed to bring it home as I pick it up to take it to the car. I guess This euphoric feeling inside of me. Really happy feeling. I’m laughing because we would do torrential rain and thunderstorms that afternoon. And as I watch the car, and it’s just so funny, I get in the car, and I’m just about to drive off and I get to the knowing again to turn the car radio on. I turn it on, and these glory days by Bruce Springsteen, Manchester, United signature tunes, glory, glory, Manchester, glory, glory, Man United. Wow. I mean, look at. But that takes that doesn’t come overnight. But that’s sort of dance between knowings and signs. It’s very doable. And I know quite a lot of people that have learned how to do that. Yeah, it runs. It’s lovely.

Brian Smith 40:45
Yeah, I really love what you’re saying. Because I’m actually taking a course right now with someone who’s teaching people how to communicate with their loved ones in the afterlife. So it’s, you know, but what you’re saying is we can all do it, we just we need to be we need to be open to it. We need to follow those prompts that we get and and just follow feeling

Sally Stacey 41:07
sometimes, you know, you can make mistakes. It’s Yeah, always gonna get it right. You know, you might think and you do something and it’s not and that you know, just as with everything in life, you can learn a lot by your missus is a faithful hits. So, you know, just go for it and learn from them from the missus, that’s happened to me. And but that’s how you refine what you know is, does that mean I’m supposed to do this up? No, it didn’t. It helps you to refine what you’re getting in if you if you’re brave enough to allow yourself to make the mistakes as well as the hit.

Brian Smith 41:42
So something happened in August of this year, that kind of like kicked everything up another notch. So tell me about that.

Sally Stacey 41:48
Oh, my gosh. And well, my Tommy decided, you know, just to take it another step that it wasn’t just Tommy’s my guides as well. And in mid August, I use my voice memo app on my phone to to leave messages for myself because I have a memory like a sieve. So if I’m doing something, something pops in my head, I need to do later, I just leave a little voicemail. And it was in the middle of the afternoon. And I went to leave a message to myself in my garden and there was one created at around 7am in the morning. And in giving the title of x. It’s interesting, because if he just said recording number 10 or recording number 13 I may not have taken that much notice because I often don’t give my memories titles. I just you know, but it has actually been given the title x and my son like a lot of people he played in my phone all the time. So I knew this was likely something and I listened. And you can hear me from at that time in the morning, pottering around, you can hear my footsteps, you can hear me talking to my husband at one stage. I can close to the phone, then I get very distant and hear the cat meowing for breakfast. within it all. Then there is a whispered

Unknown Speaker 43:09

Sally Stacey 43:09
oh my gosh. And it actually sounded like him. And I sent the recording to three friends. And they all got it. They all heard it. And I thought perhaps of happening. That’s just incredible. And interestingly enough, I’d already had some contact with Susan Gizmo before over grief and possibly grief for parents. And at this time, I am then being nudged to contact her again. And I know literally pushing against it. No, I can’t do that. She’s really busy. I’m not know, I didn’t get back. And Kim came again. And eventually I did. And tonight I had had come to me basically. And I reached out to a six nine has been and here’s a recording, you know, for you to listen to. She listened to it. She couldn’t hear it. And I was just devastated. I couldn’t make so I went back to her message the back said this makes no sense. Why would deny that tell me to come to you this recording for you not to be able to hear it. And then Sunday came and she had the little lip twitching bit that kids came back to me. So Naya It was a teaching moment for me. And I absolutely confirmed that it was your son that made that message. And the teaching moment is you have to, you know, stay firm in your beliefs. You know, it was him You have to stay firm with that because there are going to be people that are going to doubt this. They’re going to doubt the fact that it was him, which is very true. And now looking back in hindsight, that was a very important market for me when I think what’s happened now because there are going to be major doubters about what’s happened since Then, you know, so it’s a good a good moment for me then. And after that, he then made a further message. This time I spotted it, I was walking between the kitchen and the living room. And I must say it was 630 in the morning, had a coffee in one hand phone and the other swung the phone up. And my phone, my voice memo app was open, and it was recording. And so I popped the the, my coffee cup down, pumped my hand on top of the zoom, which just happens to be in that area. And I was behind. And I let it record until I sat down, started ordering, played it back. And after my high, he says, Hey, wow, that’s just amazing. And then he did a third one. And he said mom again. And at that point, I’m thinking, I wonder if I can instigate doing this by now, since last November. So for the last year, I’ve been able to feel the presence of spirit, whether it’s Tommy or somebody else, I can feel it. And so I know I can draw his energy toward me. And he’s happened with other people as well. So that’s what I did. I focused in on him, waited till I can feel his energy, hit the record button and recorded a message leaving gaps to see if he’d answer. And he did. I played it back and he was there. And it was just like mind blowing. And then we started this new this new relationship.

Brian Smith 46:33
So I have to ask you, did you know about ebps? before and this Electronic Voice phenomenon? No,

Sally Stacey 46:39
I knew about it. But I had no interest in it. And I didn’t. I know the the thing, mashup human words, other background noises to make them Frankly, I’m complete, I should say I’m completely deaf in one ear, and partially deaf and in the other, which is hysterical. And this has been brought to me. And but as Susan, Sophie, what’s happening with me is I am click constancy, knowing those words a lot of the time, but that’s part of further down in the story at this at this time. And we I then could just literally take my phone anywhere. I could walk the dog and talk to my son be in the garden. I can I can. I talked to him when I voted presence with me as I’m walking back to the car. I said to him, because he didn’t have it didn’t you know, he didn’t have a chance to vote when he was here? I said, Did you just vote with me? And his Yes, was louder than my question. And, and so on. So. And,

Brian Smith 47:41
yeah, it’s really interesting, Sally, because you’re what you’re doing is for people that don’t know, it’s called Electronic Voice phenomenon and what people have done in the past, there’s different ways of doing it. Some is using humans gibberish, and they create this background noise. And we’ll ask a question, and then spirit, I guess, somehow manipulates it into forming words. But you’re not doing that you’re just using the voice memo app on your phone, which is awesome. My friend Marcus, you know, our friend Marcus is doing with with his daughter and his guides and spirits. They’re actually talking back and forth on the phone. So

Sally Stacey 48:12
I’m curious if he’s because I don’t need any background noise.

Brian Smith 48:16
Yeah, I don’t think he knows either. But Marcus is a physical medium. So I it’s because I’m working on the soul phone project. So this is all fascinating to me, because we’ve got different people doing things different ways. So in your analogy is doing her thing in a different way. But I think people like yourself. I think you’re, you’re like a medium. So somehow spirit is using your energy.

Sally Stacey 48:36
Well, I have had flashes of children through and I was told I was that was going to happen long before it did. But I didn’t I couldn’t, you know, I think it isn’t giesen kept a really good friend. She they’re incredible what they can do. I just know I can’t do anything like that. And

Brian Smith 48:53
this is different. We have different types of mediums, their type of abilities, like I said, Sonia Rinaldi, she doesn’t Bell herself as a medium. But if you took her equipment and gave it to somebody else, they can get the results that she gets.

Sally Stacey 49:06
This is now this is the where it got interesting for me. I actually was getting a little scared about what’s happened, what was happening because I’m well, it expanded. The next thing happened was my guide started using it Bailey’s messages. And from there, I spoke to somebody that made cvps with her son in a traditional way. And she had loads of messages from him and the next day and I’m talking to Tommy, he came to mind and I now realize he put himself in my mind. And he left a message. And then I realized, you know, if he left a message, maybe others queued. And I went, you know, I contacted a group hot smiles is a group and it’s got three administrators in it. I asked them if I could contact their children. And they said yes, and I went to each of them. All I do, is I knew what they’re doing. Children like anyways, I think of their children and focusing, wait till I feel the energy come in, then I record and I asked questions. And from there, a friend’s son just invited himself into recording. And that was really lucky for her, it actually sounded like him. And it just grew. And I let people know. And then people started coming to me. And then I wanted to just with my science always been really keen to make them as evidential as possible if I’m going to showcase them out there to help people believe. Thank you. So give me questions, preferably always learning that they prefer short answers. They are yes and knows, but also just single words. So it’s interesting, they can be very deliberate in their choice of words. So they can say the minimum amount of words possible to say something much bigger. Yeah. That’s interesting. So I asked, preferably, yes, or no answers, but things I don’t know. Just give me questions. And it’s just been astonishing what’s come back. And it’s, it’s interesting, because some people come through some children come through crystal clear, some children come through sounding like themselves, some don’t, some are so faint, the whispers that I have to pull the volume up so high it, you then have to use cleaning tools to take a static out. So you’ve got a winning sound running through it, which is a shame, because I have no background noise in these recordings. And some sound as if they’re on the other side of a football pitch, just weigh in the distance very clear that way in the distance. And why they come through like that. I don’t know. But I, I’ve asked my guides, I’ve had lots of feedback on this from my guides. And one of the things that come back with is you have to learn to do this. It’s not a given for everybody on the other side, they have to learn to do this. And is one of the things just like one of the answers that one of the children came through one of the mother asked to you, I you spending time with me every day, are you sending signs? And his response was I’m learning, which I thought was interesting. Yeah, they come they have come thick. They have such wonderful answers, personality coming through as well. And I like the balance that comes through a smidgen of evidence just to show and then some personality. And a lot of the time, I’ll ask, you know, can you tell your mom that you love your lover or something? Let’s say the message for your mom. And it’s the one one ad and he turned around? He said, you tell her? Yeah, yeah. And your mom said, Oh, my God, that’s exactly what he say. And other people have come through one, they sometimes put thoughts in my head to ask, I go in with not really planning much of what I’ll say. And find myself asking a question about some flowers for them to then respond dreams. For then the mother to say, Oh, my gosh, I I’ve had a dream visit with him, involving some flowers, like a validation that I wouldn’t I not intended to ask that. Likewise, another one with a little girl of three. I found myself asking her, you know, what’s your favorite color? And he planted that so she could then turn around and say yellow and pink? Yeah. Now in the mother’s like, Oh, my gosh, and so on. It just builds it’s

from a personal perspective, I reached out to my dad 11 years since he passed and that was he was there for Tommy when Tony passed. He said his mum and dad and so on. It was It felt so strange. And and he I confirmed to him I asked him about a couple of the signs of not having any signs from him and he confirmed them. And then my mother hearing that he wanted me to get hold of her father. And now he died when I was very little I didn’t really have a relationship with Him. And that was an odd thing. I asked her to send me a photo and I focused in on this old black and white photo, called his name, felt his presence introduce myself as his granddaughter and his daughter and wants me to do this. And he answered some questions that she asked me to ask. And then I said you know, my mother, your daughter, she loves you very much. Have you got a message for and he’s one of these that’s talking from a mile away. Clear but so faint. I just know it’s there. The sound line is flat, but I know it’s there. And you pull it up and you pull it up and you pull it up and I’m getting Lindy loose just fine. And it was said in a Lindy Lou just fine. made no sense to me. So I went to my mom and I said, this is what I’m guessing. Is this mean anything to you? And she said, Oh, my gosh, Sally, I’ve not heard that in over 60 years. That’s what he used to call me when I was looking

Brian Smith 54:54
a while. Why?

Sally Stacey 54:56
And that sort of made me very emotional. I guess being contacted somebody that’s been dead 4550 years. And it’s not been them. It sounds wonderful and exciting. But it’s, I’ve been. It’s been an emotional roller coaster ride as well. As this has opened, it’s been. It’s been interesting. I know. We mentioned cat before. She’s huge. She’s been enormously supportive without me when she first saw how she knew, and she sent me things and suggestions of grant how to ground myself and all sorts of different things. And I really needed that because this was just such an unknown territory for me. I, I felt like I’d gone from nought to 50.

Brian Smith 55:44
Yeah, yeah,

Sally Stacey 55:46
in a couple of minutes. But it’s it’s. And the other thing I did was, I was so keen on helping as many people as I could, by doing this, I just sit in the garden and do four or five recordings, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, no issue is really lovely. And it was every time I come in and ask questions. And that’s easy, then. And then you might have 10 minutes worth of, of recording, that I then transfer over to my computer. And there’s a flatline unless they Loudon, and you can obviously see it, and you watch every single second. Yeah, flatline. And remember, I’m deaf. I just know where there is words in that flatline. But it takes a lot of concentration and spit. I feel presence of spirit when I’m doing it. It’s pretty damn sure they’re behind it. Yeah, I can’t do five. I cannot do five on the chart. I lose it. It goes. And there was one time I there was another waiting for more recordings to come through. And I literally had to say, I’m sorry, I can’t I have to stop for three hours for a few hours. My ears have gone tired.

Brian Smith 57:00

Sally Stacey 57:00
I will still put it but I literally it stopped. Yeah. Then that was the learning curves to meeting. You can’t just expect each and yeah, so

Brian Smith 57:13
yeah, it takes it takes a lot of a lot of energy to do what you’re doing. And I know, I think we talked about Sherry pearl. And you and I talked the other day, and she was doing some things like this. And yet the recording is one thing but the parsing through and finding it and then enhancing it. And not everybody can hear of the word. So it’s essentially you what Suzanne casement said, you know, is this really happening? And she couldn’t hear. But there’s something about the interpretation also, that that requires, I think, a connection?

Sally Stacey 57:44
Yes, yeah. Because there have been times when something’s very clear to me, and I’ve passed it on. And I just didn’t hear that.

Brian Smith 57:51
Yeah. What do

Sally Stacey 57:52
you mean, you don’t hear that. And that has that has been part of the learning curve, too. And what I tend to do now is I’ll sit on a recording overnight, and I listened to it again in the morning, 99% of the time, I have sent out recordings that have been heard. And so it’s doing what it’s meant to do. And I’m really, really pleased at that. So the majority of the time what’s going out is heard otherwise, I’ve actually stated now, if I don’t think it can be heard, or if it’s so quiet that I know that by pulling up the volume and then having to use static tools, it’s not going to be good. I’m just not going to even attempt to do it. I will write your transcripts. And that’s all I can do. I could spend all day on something that’s not going to sound good at the end of the day. I can hear it really clearly. But one other thing and this is Susan Gibson’s observation, I sent her a recording of me telling my son as I walked my dog late at night, I love you. And he comes back with I love you.

Very clear. There’s no sounds, and this is what I went what because I was directed to go back to her again. And I had a fear because all I kept hearing from other EVP people was you have to have a background noise. You have to have a background noise for them to use. And I’m not and she used to be a linguist and she listened to this recording and she came back and she said I listened to the second day love you it’s got tones of your voice in it. And she found that fascinating. I found it horrifying my initial thought was oh my gosh, I said I love you twice that was me and and I literally thought and it only happened in a very small amount of cases. And but it has happened before and for a while I thought this is just ridiculous. How am I going you know a little crazy here and then I realized when I went back to the original

recording that hadn’t got the second I love you bumped up to match sound volume wise for the first yeah Soundwave for the first time love you normal sound. The second I love you, which is crystal clear, slightly sharper pitch than mine. And quickly more quickly said it is so tiny, it barely bumps the sound when there is no way a human could have said that in such a quiet tone. So what her suggestion was on notice is they are using the sound energy of my voice from my earlier comment to create the second comment. Yeah, that was a suggestion she you know, but I

Brian Smith 1:00:29
think there’s something to that because even with the jibberish the the theory is the hypothesis, I guess is that they’re taking the gibberish, which is chopped up human sounds. And there’s somehow manipulating those and putting them together to form their words. So it’s it’s, it’s it would be a similar type of thing. They’re using your energy to form the sounds that you’re hearing. And we don’t know how it works. We probably won’t for

Sally Stacey 1:00:52
I have I have asked Firstly, it’s it’s funny, because I do I am now sorry to my kids. If they don’t want to answer a question. They just don’t. Let’s face it. I think it’s partly to do with I’m not supposed to know that at this moment in time. And that’s fine. And I’m fine with it. And I did ask them, you know, with this the three the spirit world, the human the phone? How big a part does the phone playing in relation to the two other components? I’ve asked the question twice, and both times they came up with nothing. Hmm. And I thought that was interesting. Because people asked me what what phone have you got? What’s your voice memo app? Yeah, it’s not the phone is with me in the spirit world. And this is just the thing in the middle.

Brian Smith 1:01:43
And I think that’s absolutely true. And it’s like I said, it’s really interesting working on the cell phone project. Because what Dr. Schwartz is trying to do with that is this spirit energy, however, they’re, they’re using it. And this is like physical touch is so light, it’s so hard to measure in our world that the noise around is actually loud that we have the signal to noise when you’re in silence or the noise is so high compared to the signal that the thing is getting that subtle energy. So it’s not in that case, it is the equipment. And that’s what we’re really working on. So it makes

Sally Stacey 1:02:19
yes twice now as well. Since I knew we were coming on about the cell phone is against those times they came back and said yes.

Brian Smith 1:02:27
Yeah, it’s really been an interesting journey. I’ve been on the project now for about three or four years. And and that’s the that’s the challenge. So it’s always fascinating for me to talk to someone like yourself, or like Marcus, who was just he has a microphone that they’ve actually somehow spiritually manipulated, and he’s communicating through a microphone and how stuff works is crazy. And you were telling me you did the Scrabble tiles at one time to write

Sally Stacey 1:02:50
how I learned that Marcus I did because of what he did. And I put a load of Scrabble tiles in a flat cobbled pizza box under my bed under the bed in his spare bedroom. And sure enough, the tiles are moving. I couldn’t wait to see what was going to be said. And then my puppy got in there. been there for about a month by that stage. I kept it very secure. And she just saw them barks and wash.

Brian Smith 1:03:14
So people so people know Marcus Actually, that’s one of the ways he started communicating with spear he would put Scrabble tiles in a box and put it under his bed. For some reason it takes weeks or whatever for them to start to manipulate them, right. And I’ve seen some of the messages gotten from his daughter, and they’re just incredible, like full sentences.

Sally Stacey 1:03:32
I might do that. Again, actually, you have to be patient, that’s you have to leave it there for a long time by the sun. But mine was shifting, they were definitely moving. And I sent him a couple of pitches as they moved. But they weren’t into the forming of words yet. But I’m going back before I forget to the the message is something else that I asked. And you’ve seen these diagrams you get what raises your vibration and what lowers it, you know, these lists on either side. Thankfully, you know, I tick off a lot on the what raises your box, but I also take some off on the lower side. I still am prone to feel insecure, and I can feel shy. You know, I have things that definitely are there. I’m a human being, you know, and it surprises me how this has opened up and one of the questions that I was asking them I said you know, I talked about the vibration levels and I talked to I literally said to my guides about this chart I’d seen and I’d said I take off some of those boxes on the low vibration side. And yet I can I am able to do this why? And they came back with them in a very loud you know, it’s really loud. Ready, you are ready and later on the same recording probably. I’m asking everyone Going to be able to do what I can do with my phone. And they came back and said not ready. I think. And I don’t think any not everybody’s ready. And I think they mean some people are not ready. In other words, yeah, not a case. If you can all just tap in just like that, I think there is a readiness perspective to be able to do it.

Brian Smith 1:05:25
Yeah, there is something to that. The other thing is, I love having this conversation with you. Because we started off talking about like, recognizing the signs that our loved ones give us like the turtle and the cardinal, and the songs on the radio so that we can all open ourselves up to receive in those signs. And I’ve talked to people who are mediums and some people say, Well, everybody can be a medium anybody can train to be a medium. I don’t know that. I believe that, I think, I think it’s like playing a musical instrument. Some of us have the ability, we could just pick it up and be like virtuosos. And some of us would have to really, really work hard to plank, plank out, Mary had a little lamb. And that’s probably as far as we’re gonna get

Sally Stacey 1:06:05
this back on to what you’re saying in the fact that we are all unique individuals, we are a sum of our life experiences. And in that respect, none of us can ever fully fit into another person’s shoes. Right, right. And so it stands to reason, then, that our connection at whatever level is also going to be equally unique. What is going to work for one person or what is a combination of things that will work for one person will not work for another, we’ve all got strengths and weaknesses? how honest can we be in recognizing what our strengths are, and what our weaknesses are and what we need to work on? What needs to solidify, you know, all these things is, is right back into an individual perspective, I can’t make anybody else do this. It’s each person is on their own journey, I all I can do is share my story. And if any of it resonates or help somebody else in theirs, then that’s the best that can do. And likewise with me listening to other people’s stories, and I listened to many I’m, you know, early on when my signs were slower and further apart, and so on. I never felt not fair. When I saw other people getting more, I was just like, well, and I would listen to the background to that happened, what happened? And it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to be the same as my journey. But the more I understand, the more aware I am.

Brian Smith 1:07:34
Yeah, I was thinking. I think of the Rolling Stone saga, you can’t always get what you want. But you get what you need. And I think because people have asked me about my connection with my daughter, and I can talk to people like you like yourself, and I could be jealous. Well, I didn’t get to. I haven’t seen Shana, you know, for example, or people said, I felt my loved one touch me. And I’m like, I haven’t gotten that. We all have different different relationship, different things and different things that we need. And I think we get what we what we need at the time. But if you’re open to it, you can start to develop it and you can and as you’re saying, you know, I’m open to follow that prompt, turn on the radio, go out and do this. Now I’ve got, I’ve got lots of stories where I’ve like, just got a nudge to go out and do something. And I went out and did it. And it turned into something really amazing. And I had no idea what I was doing when I when I wanted to do that thing. So just start following those things. You know, if you get a nudge to do something, just follow it see where it goes. Yeah,

Sally Stacey 1:08:30
yeah. And if it doesn’t go anywhere, that’s the lesson in itself.

Brian Smith 1:08:33
Yeah. And, yes, so well. And speaking of that, I have to tell people how you and I, you know, ended up connecting. So I guess we connected a little bit on Facebook before we were in the same places that I liked something you had said. And you’re like, well, if he really wanted to reach out to me, he reached out and you didn’t contact me. And then you want to you’re you said you turned over a dish the other day, and I’ll post the picture. You sent me a picture of it. You said your name was on the back of a dish. I’m like what? But it was set. It was there on the back of dish B Smith. And so you decided to contact me

Sally Stacey 1:09:01
next morning, that was literally I looked at the message you hit like metal. I’d love to talk to you about this. And I thought, Well, you know what, if he’s interested, he’ll contact me. And that’s that this is my my guides nudged me in all sorts of ways. Yes. If I was left to my own devices, I wouldn’t be meeting as many people reasons. Another one, my guides, literally, she doesn’t mind me talking about it on a message on the end of recording that I was making with a child about Raven. And from the details they gave me, I was able to find who she was. Yeah, that’s some lovely conversations. And as a result, you know, then let me know. And that was a big nudge. And that’s when I reached out to you and we’re having this conversation. I had no idea you were involved in the soul phone projects. And this is what I got. This is just what I’d like to do. All right, so I want to see if I can make a recording.

Brian Smith 1:10:03
Yeah, sure.

Sally Stacey 1:10:04
Again, I won’t be able to show it to you now, but

Brian Smith 1:10:08
yeah, absolutely.

Sally Stacey 1:10:10
This I tend, although they were made with Tommy not using an earpiece, and I like using an earpiece when I make them because I’m completely deaf in one ear. So when I use an earpiece, he kind of, I go into my own little world. From the outside this there is no sound in this room. I don’t know if it will work. But let me see if this earpiece is actually yeah, it’s on. Okay. So, I’ve I’ve just gone into my standard sort of, I don’t think you can see it. It’s a voice memo app on my phone. Nothing Tommy for a second. Hi.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:30
I’m Brian. The screen.

Sally Stacey 1:11:34
Brian Smith, he got a message. 1145 Oh, exactly. One minute. And yes, I feel presence quite strongly. So be interesting, then. I’m telling you the time and the eggs and the exact length. afterwards. I don’t listen to it on my phone, because usually it’s too quiet. Often if I want to skip the computer as I look on my iPad, because I can see the recording. But the voice memo itself on there, it has the same app. And I can see the sound wave. Yeah, I can just tell when there’s going to be you know, looking at the dots of the sound waves if there’s something there. And then I get all excited and transferred on my computer onto wave pads, bump up the volume and listen to the whole lot. So immunity. It won’t take me long to do.

Brian Smith 1:12:52
Awesome. That’s awesome. Well, so you’re you’re doing this for other parents now. Right? I think this is particularly doing it for parents. So Can people reach out to you to have you do it? or How are you? How to connect with people?

Sally Stacey 1:13:05
Yeah, I have a quite a long list. And okay, I am trying to limit it to two to maybe see two a day, maybe three? Yeah, yeah, if it comes to clear, and some of them really do some of them. It’s really easy. I don’t do anything apart from triple and volume 13 to recording segments that are easier to send out. That’s it, you have to raise the voice or raise it, raise it and raise it and then use tools to bring the static down. Some of it is slightly muffled. And it’s really difficult to make out what they say. So those recordings can take a long time. And what I do with some and I have three at the moment, is they’ll come through maybe with two or three, clear and comments. And the rest is really good enough to make a recording. So I’ll make notes and I’ll put it in my file as pending. The next day when I do another one out, go back to that person and see if I can get more. And I might do that two or three times because I like to end up with a really clear name. And something more than a yes or no. If I can have an insane name that seems to go down really, really well. If I can have something validating that I can’t possibly know that’s just brilliant. And then I love you as some sort just and also without every single one has come back you know do you spend time with your mother with your parents and we do with Yes, they say it in different ways. Yes, absolutely. Sure. Learning but there’s always it’s always been positive. And I always since last November, November since I could feel Tommy’s presence like I just did. Every time I think of him, I he comes I feel him. And then there are other times in the day I might be doing something like either the dishes something mundane or I might be chasing a dog My dog that escaped that happened once. And I feel him come. So he comes when he wants to, and he comes when I asked him to, but he’s certainly not here all the time. And that’s fine. I hope that he’s off either having a blast or, or doing whatever he I know he helps other kids the transition, sudden death transitions and I know you helps with these cvps with my, my guides have actually come through in my EDP recordings. I had one child come through, and I’m in the garden, and he got really noisy first the car went past on the private road behind the house, I pause there in an airplane went over her eyes. And this was somebody who had not been expecting this person came in of their own accord. That so I wasn’t sure who I was who it was in relation to apart from the fact that related to the previous recording, I’d done. They knew this previous recording. So there was a space with some quiet and time type quickly set the name to speed up them responding before another noise was made. And my guides came in, almost with a slight reprimand it was and said, play 10 minutes. And then after then she then came back and she said I’m ready. Oh, wow. And then we went. And that was interesting. That’s that’s a that’s the first time I’ve heard them come in, literally say something in it. Yes. Rushing for a response. And interesting.

Brian Smith 1:16:33
Well, Sally, I am really glad that you reached out to me. It’s like I said, it’s really interesting, because the timing happened to work out that you know, I had this the slot available. And you reached out to me, you know, when we made this happen? I think you’re, you know what you’re doing, you know, where you are now everybody should say okay, I’m not going to get my phone and make make voice memo. Maybe not everybody can do that. But we can all start to look out for those signs and, and feel those signs and they just pour that love out. I think that’s a big part of it. When I hear people talk about that. Just pour that love out and you know, talk to your kids know that they’re still there. No, they’re still involved our lives, they tell us all kinds of ways all kinds of times, that they’re still a part of our life. So we don’t have to wait till we die to see them again. We can we can have that relationship even right now.

Sally Stacey 1:17:21
Absolutely. Yes. And I love is always there, even if you’re not feeling them, and no reasons. I think that there are phases when you don’t feel the presence or in the early days, there are perhaps things that you need to be doing. And in this plane, I get that feeling anyway, I but to know they’re always there. I mean, what I was trying to say before about being able to pull in other kids just by thinking of them, to me, exemplifies what I’ve been saying the last year, they are only ever a thought away. It just happens that I can feel them when when they come there any of them and hopefully other people will begin to do that. But in the meantime, I didn’t feel him before last November. I didn’t have that feeling a sense that he was there, and then happened. But before then I didn’t know for sure. Yeah. Go through the process anyway of trusting and being.

Brian Smith 1:18:21
Yeah, well, Sally. I really appreciate it. It’s been fascinating talking to you and getting to meet you and learn about you know your relationship with Tommy and the things you’re doing and I think this is gonna help a lot of people so I really appreciate you doing this.

Sally Stacey 1:18:35
Well, thank you. Thank you for you know, asking I loved him and I’ll get back to see if there’s anything on that recording.

Brian Smith 1:18:41
Alright, sounds good. Well Enjoy the rest of your day

Sally Stacey 1:18:44
and you cheers bye

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

This interview with David Richman went so well. I can’t wait for you to hear it. An entrepreneur, author, public speaker, athlete, and philanthropist, David Richman uses the lessons learned in his life to enrich and inspire others. As a former sedentary, over-weight, smoker, David knew that he needed to focus not on what others wanted out of him, but on what he wanted out of life. Inspired by the passing of his sister due to brain cancer, David set out to chronicle the cancer journey of 15 cancer patients and caregivers.

As an endurance athlete, he chose to ride his bicycle across country, 5,000 miles, to meet with each of them individually. The metaphor for endurance athletics and enduring life comes up over and over in the book and in our conversation because it’s such an apt metaphor. All proceeds of the book go to charity. But, get it for your own edification knowing you’re also helping cancer research.

You can reach David at: https://www.david-richman.com





Brian Smith 0:01
Hey everybody, this is Brian. I’m back with another episode of grief to growth. And I’ve got with me today Dave Richmond, and David Richmond, I should say, David has written a book called cycle of lives. It’s a fascinating book. And we’re gonna get into what that is. First I want to introduce David and then we’ll talk about himself and what caused what prompted him to write the book. So Dave is an entrepreneur’s an author. He’s a public speaker. He’s an athlete, and he’s a lot philanthropist. He uses the lessons he learned his life to enrich and inspire others. And as a former sedentary overweight smoker, David knew that he needed to focus not on what others wanted out of him out of him, but what he wanted out of life. And his first book is winning the middle in the middle of the pack, he discussed how to get more out of ourselves than ever imagined. Now, in this new book, the cycle lives he shares the interconnected stories of overcoming obstacles, specifically cancer. And so with that, I want to welcome David Richmond to grief to growth. Thank you, Brian, really excited to be here. definitely looking forward to a good conversation. Yeah, I’m looking forward to I got the book, like last week, and I was able to chance to take a look through it and read a couple of stories. I want to talk about you first, though and talk about what what prompted you are how you got to the point where you became a cycler. cyclist, I see that you were a sedentary overweight smoker. At one point, I look at you now you’re like, it’s kind of hard to believe so what, what, what transitioned you out of that?

David Richman 1:26
Ah, it was a crazy set of circumstances, Brian. So I mean, basically, what happened was this.

You know, like people evolve over time, and you kind of sometimes you just don’t know what you don’t know until you know it, and then you definitely know it. Yeah. And, and one day I woke up, and I just found myself in a situation that you think I could have had more awareness of until that moment, but I didn’t. And once it had awareness of it, it was such an obvious situation that I was in that I just kind of like, you know, it’s a higher level observation when, what the heck are you doing? So I was pretty successful in business. And I had friends and happy and life’s good. But on the other side of the coin, I was not very happy in my personal life. I was married to a very abusive alcoholic.

My twins were four. And my sister had just been diagnosed with cancer, and it was going to be a losing battle. In the end, they knew that they just didn’t know how long it was going to be. And

one day, I just woke up and said, What the heck are you like, what the heck are you doing? And it just, it just hit me at that point. And I had to get my kids out of that situation. I needed to get myself out of that situation, too. But definitely, I needed to get my kids out of that situation. And without getting into a lot of details. I was kind of able to broker a deal that says,

you know, we’ll split the kids, but I’m driving them everywhere, you know,

you know, back and forth, no interaction between us, I’ll take care of the scheduling, I’ll do whatever. It’s just we need to not be in the situation. And we were able to get out of that situation. That was great. And about me too much later.

My daughter was in their twins. My daughter came home from school and think she must have told her her kindergarten teacher at the time that her Auntie had cancer. And she said, Oh, does she smoke because you know, smoking causes cancer. And my daughter said no, but my dad does. And she talked to me about that. And and she said, Well, you quit smoking. It’s just like, I told myself that I heard that 100 times before, but it never like, hit it. So I said to her, Danielle, I’ll do it. I’ll stop smoking, but you got to stop sucking your thumb. Right? So. So let’s make a deal. So we made that deal. That was in February in March, I I I ran a five k starts I stopped smoking I went running for like a minute. Then two minutes and five minutes and 10 minutes I did 10 K, five K and 10 k, then I jumped on my bike and made it a triathlon. And then we’ll go half Ironman. And then by November that year, I did a full Ironman. Well, when I said to myself, you know, like, I just want to be I want to be healthy and be active. I want to be healthy. And being overweight, and, and being miserable, and smoking and drinking too much. And being unhappy and not caring about myself was not going to make me happy. certainly wasn’t a good thing for my kids either. Right? So. So I just said Well, let’s just keep going on that athletic path. And I did like So far I’ve done like 1500 means I’ve done more than 50 runs longer than 50 miles, I’ve run 100 miles a couple of times, I’ve just done a bike across the country. I’ve done crazy stuff. So that’s kind of the genesis of that whole. You know, that whole transformation?

Brian Smith 5:18
Yeah. And the book is cycles of cycle lives. And I didn’t say it’s 15 people’s stories, but you actually met these 15 people? Well, you met them before, but you did a 5000 mile ride across the country.

David Richman 5:31
Yeah, yeah. Which is not so sure. Here’s how that here’s how that book happened, right? Because I’ll give you the background, and then you’ll understand why I went to go take my bike across the country. So um, you know, I, like I said, to have listened to some of your podcasts, you do talk about the different ways in which people handle grief and kind of what, what enlightens them to take whatever action they’re going to take to process and then move forward from the grief. And when my kids were about nine, so this is like, four years later, my sister’s super close to being taken by the cancer, okay. And she was going to do this Relay for Life. I don’t know if you ever heard of him, it’s an American Cancer Society. You know, everybody gets on the track, you walk 24 hours, put together a team, you raise money, raise awareness, you support people, whenever it’s a pretty big deal. And they’re all over the place right there. It’s kind of cool. So my sister said, Hey, I’m going to do this 24 hour Relay for Life, I’m going to be out on the, on the field cheering on the people that are on my team that are walking there to support me. And I thought, that’s pretty brave, considering how sick she was. I said, if you’re going to be out there for whole 24 hours, I’ll run around. And that felt to me like a good. A good trade off, right? Well, unfortunately, she died a couple of days before that Relay for Life, and what’s wasn’t able to be out there. But I started to hold up my end of the bargain. So me and my kids went out there with the whole team and everybody else, we were out there for the whole 24 hours. Well, one of the things I noticed, Brian was that people were really good about dealing with the tasks of cancer. How do I navigate the healthcare system? How do I navigate work? How am I going to get my kids fed while I’m doing chemo that I think it got the tasks of it. But people didn’t really talk about the emotions of it. And I certainly wasn’t talking about, in fact, I haven’t talked about this too much. But her husband and kids that were left behind, they literally couldn’t talk, right. They, they just they were stuck in their own, understandably so stuck in their own, you know, immediate grief that they had, and loss, so that they weren’t able to talk about the emotions of cancer. And that just kind of stuck in my head, that, you know, why do we have to take this journey about the emotions on our own?

Unknown Speaker 8:08
Mm hmm.

David Richman 8:08
So every year I did another fundraiser for her for the cancer center that took care of her. And I, I did these events, and we’re all kind of bringing light to cancer and whatever. And I realized that everybody was still no matter where I did, it didn’t matter if it was the caregiver, the receiver, a survivor, a loved one or whatever. They just all had one thing in common, they couldn’t talk about the emotions of it. Right. And some of them had talked internally about their emotional journey, right. And so I said, Well, that’s a pretty interesting theme. And I said, Well, so what seems to be connecting? And it isn’t the type of cancer that can access it. Isn’t that how old you are young you are, that connects us. That’s all different on what severity of cancer is different. Whether you are have cancer and live it because of your cancer a certain way or in spite of your cancer. So, no, none of those things connect us. The one thing that connects us as human beings, in my opinion, is our emotions. And that was the one thing that I felt was that was a parallel and connected. And one thing that was for sure, with everybody I talked to was that one common thing, Brian, no matter how many factors came into it, that were different, the one thing that was the same was that not ability to process and discuss their emotions. So I went and I get went on this crazy journey of cold calling Comprehensive Cancer Centers, hospitals, you know, friends, people in the medical industry, people that I knew had friends that had cancer and I just tried to collect these crazy stories about people who had experienced a wide range of different factors. But who hadn’t process the emotions on it. And what made them interesting and compelling was the traumas that Han had endured leading up to when they encounter cancer. And those traumas were not unlike a lot of the traumas that you’ve talked about in some of your podcasts and yours also. loss, abandonment, suicides, drug abuse, addiction, physical abuse, you name it, there are all these things that people have endured in lifetime think we can all relate to,

Brian Smith 10:34

David Richman 10:36
And how did those traumas affect their cancer journey? I thought, boy, if I got these interesting perspectives from all these different types of cancers, ages of people, you know, people across the country, different wealth backgrounds, you know, immigrants, you know, what, whatever. And I just said, You got an interesting story. Let’s talk about the emotional side. So I interviewed him for a couple years. And then I said, Well, what better way to connect us? It’s a long answer to your question, what better way to connect us than if I jump on my bike? And I bike and go meet them all for the first time?

Brian Smith 11:14
Yeah. And that was that was quite a journey in itself is biking. 5000 miles, I don’t know if people can appreciate how difficult that is. and reading in the book. I, I know even starting out, it wasn’t easy.

David Richman 11:26
No, definitely wasn’t easy. I didn’t appreciate how hard it was gonna be. Because what I did was I set out to do it in eight weeks, 5000 miles in a week, but I had to cut it shorter. I had to make it in six weeks. And so I did 4700 miles in 45 days. And I so I only took off four days off. So you do the math. I was doing more than 100 miles a day. And I’m stopping cancer centers and stopping to meet the people that I’ve met at the book, I’m stopping to talk to a bazillion strangers, who also Brian had the same thing. They had all encountered cancer in one way or another. And they all hadn’t talked about or dealt with the emotions. I don’t know how to talk to people about the things that they’re going through. Right? Yeah, but I had no idea how hard it’s gonna be. Because I was flat tire after flat tire most of the time I was on like interstate highways because I had to get from point A to point B. So I got trucks barreling by me. And you know, it’s it. I ran into a hurricane. It was it was fast. It was hard. Yeah.

Brian Smith 12:32
So you you interviewed these 15 people, they’re all different stories. Some of them are survivors, some of them, you know that they succumb to the cancer, some of them are caregivers. And so what did you find in common with the people that that you interviewed?

Unknown Speaker 12:48

David Richman 12:49
well, the thing that they had in common going into it, what was something that shocked me? Right, something that shocked me, and I think you’ll get this I think your your listeners will get this as well is when we’re going through the things are going through no matter how crazy they might seem to other people. They don’t seem that crazy to us, because it’s our life. That’s what we have to deal with right now. So you just do what you need to do to survive, right? And that’s what you do. And other people look at you going oh my god, right?

Unknown Speaker 13:23
How in the world? Did

David Richman 13:24
you make it through that? That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard of you go? No, it’s really not that ridiculous in my life. And I’m just trying to live it right. So the one thing they had in common was that they didn’t think that they’re crazy, ridiculously interesting and spectacular stories, or anything but ordinary.

Brian Smith 13:42

David Richman 13:43
And I think that that’s important. Because when when we peel back the cover and figure out what’s inside of your head or my head, people will be shocked at what we’ve gone through what we’ve dealt with. And we would be the same way with them. But it’s just our lives. So we don’t think we’re ordinary. So I mean, extraordinary. So I was able to really get deep into these people’s stories and their fascinating stories. So that was one thing in common. The other thing in common was that there was a degree in some of them having processed these emotions. But But honestly, Brian, all of them hadn’t really processed it and some of them had begun the process the emotions of cancer. And so when I sat down with say, for example, this wonderful woman who’s a Zen ecologist, and she just had this ridiculous childhood, very difficult, and is a wonderful oncologist. She she’s really well respected in the world of oncology, survivorship and advocacy. When we sat down and talked, I said to her, I said a document. I gotta ask you stuff that you don’t talk about. to others about. And she said good, because I’m talking, Hey, buddy, this never happened. And I got to go on this journey, exploring the emotions of people that are just like you and me who had the time to explore these emotions. So the things they had in common were that, yeah, extraordinary stories were fascinating. And to have processed the emotion so we ever go on that journey together. Yeah,

Brian Smith 15:29
it’s interesting as you say that because I, I deal a lot with people, parents of children transition children crossover passed by. And, you know, I was just right before guidance, I was talking with someone you know, who’s a father whose son passed away. And, you know, people look at us, and they say, oh, wow, you’re such a strong person. I could never do what you’ve done. And I think you put it very, very well. We all do what we have to do. And I think the one one of the things we have in common as human beings is this resilience of the human spirit. That’s just so much stronger. And we and we see it in other people, but we can’t imagine we really have it in ourselves.

David Richman 16:09
Yeah. Yeah, it’s really well, sad. And, you know, it’s, it’s a little trite to compare it to an example I’m going to give you from my first book. But one of the things that I learned in this journey of Cassia, I wrote the first book going, like, I’ve been living my life for everybody else, I want to be a good kid to my parents, I want to be a good kid in school, I want to be a good employee, I want to be a good boss, I want to be a good boyfriend. I want to be that husband. But what about being good mate? And I realized that once I started saying, well be in the middle of pack, like, don’t worry about what people are looking at. Because in the middle of pack, nobody cares, right, this issue. So I said, once you start focusing on you, once you worry about setting your own goals, and I think we don’t set our goals high enough. Yeah. And I think that, that, if you’re, you know, if I, if I said to use example, I like to hear I go, I go, if I said to you, hey, there’s 250 storey buildings, and there’s a there’s a ladder across the 250 storey buildings, I’d like you to walk from one side to the other. That’s a goal I have for you, huh? I have no, I would never do that. And I go, Well, okay, I’m gonna put a million dollars on the other side of the building. And you might go, No, heck, no, there’s no way I would do that. And I said, Okay, I’ll put 100 million on their side, you know, amount of money would make me walk across that thing. And I go, Okay, well, how about this, you never have to work another day in your life. If you make it across you go, it’s not worth it. Now I go, Okay, well, this, I’m gonna put your sister and your your son and your mom in the middle of the ladder. And you better rush over there in 50 mile an hour winds and save them before they fall off. People would do without even thinking about, of course. So what is the thing is going to motivate you to just be able to overcome whatever challenge? A lot of times, we’re forced to deal with heavy, hard things. And we don’t know we can until we do we’re just living our life. And you said, Yeah, but sometimes, you know, we also don’t believe in ourselves enough that we challenge ourselves enough, we don’t set a high goal. And I think that’s what limits us. And so I think if you are able to overcome difficult circumstances, and you’re able to understand that you have that resiliency, and you have that ability to overcome, it does give you some empowerment to continually go deeper. I mean, could you imagine what you were you have gone through? And before you went through that, could you imagine that you’d be the person telling other people how to deal with the things that you had to deal with?

Brian Smith 18:50
No, I didn’t think I’d be here. It’s been five years. And there’s no way I thought it’d be here five years later.

David Richman 18:56
Not only here, here affecting people’s lives in a positive way. That’s, that’s something you could have never imagined. No problem, right? I mean,

Brian Smith 19:07
no, not at all. I gotta tell you, I love the the analogy or the metaphor of the endurance athlete, and I think about yourself and you saying, okay, I was I was overweight, sedentary smoker. And I just started running, you know, a minute at a time. And then now I’m doing these Iron Man’s stuff. And I frankly, look at that, and I’m like, I could never do an Iron Man. I could never I could never even run a marathon. And I want to read this quote from the book. I love this quote from from Rick in the book. It says life is kind of like running the last mile of a competitive marathon. You think you know, it’s coming. It’s what you do. You’ve been through so much and done unbelievable amounts of training. You believe in yourself and your ability to push through anything. You’re in command and you’ve got the balls to put it all on the line. And then the last hundred yards comes, you see the finish line, you’ve crossed it before you know what’s coming and how to deal with it. The pain burns a hole through your chest and shreds your legs and me grinder rips your lungs and rips apart your lungs. And you start to question everything you start to doubt, the pain is unbearable, and imagine how much worse than you think you can handle. And if you try to control it, you’re going to lose, the only way to make it to the finish line is given to the pain to let go to embrace the unknown and allow some higher power, some unknown source something outside of yourself, because you have nothing left inside to take you forward across the line. It says I’m blessed to have learned that kind of relinquishment in my personal life. I read that I was like, wow, I just thought that was that’s so powerful. And as I said, I deal with parents when our when our children pass, we’re like, I can’t do this. There’s no way that I can do this. And we talked about this thing called soul planning. It’s like, did we did we plan this? So we set this thing up? And you know, maybe I bit off more than I can chew? I just I love I never run a marathon. But I can only imagine what that must feel like.

David Richman 20:55
Yeah, it’s, um, in You’re giving me chills when you read that, because I’ve read the book about 1000 times, you know, through the writing and editing and rewriting re Editing by the law place. But I’ve never heard the words from somebody else. And that’s what he you know, maybe not exactly word for word. But that’s what he’s told me. And it’s a powerful, powerful lesson to learn is, is when you’re, when you’re shredded through a meat grinder, you got nothing left to give. You just you just got to just figure out a way of going forward. I mean, you just got to figure it out. And I did that. I’ll never forget, I’ll never forget that exact minute in my life. That I determined that I was either going to push myself into an area, I had no idea. I even belonged it alone could explain and where we’re stopping yourself before and turn away and go, No, that’s not me. Right? I know exactly a moment where I was. And it’s just this is minute in my life where I said, you either have to pack your bags and go home, or you have to take a step forward, right? There’s only two. And once you take a step forward, that’s a place you’ve never been before. Obviously, the next step for a leader, patient everything before and the next one and the next one, next one. So who you’re going to be you’re going to go back into place that you know everything about yourself and what you’re capable of, are you going to go explore an area that is someplace you’ve never been before. And I think that that is a thing that we can apply to physical exertion mental struggles, career aspirations, overcoming grief, overcoming a difficulty, it’s like, let’s figure out a way to just give into the unknown and just see see what we’re made of. And not always going to win. Right? I’m definitely going to be a further than I was having not taken that step. Yeah.

Brian Smith 23:00
Yeah. One thing I noticed in the book, I love this part. Also you talk about after your sister after June pass?

Unknown Speaker 23:07

Brian Smith 23:07
You, you felt this abandonment, I guess by by her friends and your own friends. And that’s something that a lot of people talk about, that when we go through this, like the most difficult thing in our life. And I was just talking with a group of parents about this last night, a lot of times the people that we think are going to be there for us just kind of go away. Is that part of what prompted you to write the book?

David Richman 23:27
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I don’t know, Brian, that I still have processed it. And I have differing opinions on whether or not I care to process it or want to process it. But one of those driving factors is the fact that I’ve been estranged from my mom for going on nearly 40 years. A scary number. That’s a scary, scary number.

Brian Smith 23:54

David Richman 23:56
She, you know, just, it’s just, it’s the choice that she made is not the choice I made, but it’s a choice that she made. And, and, and so I didn’t have her to turn to my dad was very old was born. He was 59 when I was born. So he died when I was very young. So I didn’t have him turned to neither one had any family that we were involved with. So the only person I really had was my was my sister. Yeah, though. It was shocking to me. I mean, Brian was it was really shocking to me that I couldn’t. Even though I reached out to I got nothing back from the people that were in her life. Not one single person shocking to me. And I think it’s because they had such a profound sense of loss, and they had such a lighter connection to me than they did to her. And I don’t know what it was, but, you know, I definitely know that connecting to people on it. on that level about my issues of being abandoned, or my issues of really realizing that I was alone in this thing, that definitely prompted me to do it because I wanted to understand, you know, when I, I, I didn’t make it about me when I was interviewing these people by didn’t try to learn, I did try to learn. You know,

Brian Smith 25:27
what I’ll tell you, David, it’s not uncommon. It’s, it’s, it’s funny, I was just talking with a group of parents I was working on with last night, we were talking about this, this very thing, it’s not uncommon, that the people we think are going to be closest to us, kind of go away for me, we all we all try to analyze it. Is it because they’re scared in case we’re parents? Are they scared, we’re like contagious and their kids are going to die? Is it because we make them feel sad, you know, we all think about what it is. And we all came to the conclusion when we can’t take it personally, whatever it is, because it seems to be almost universal, that when we have this this deepest loss that a lot of times, that’s when people disconnect from us. But I think it goes to what you’re talking about with your whole theme of the book, people not processing these deep emotions, and they’re just not equipped to it. So they, they, they turn in, they walk away.

David Richman 26:17
They do and it’s easy to do, right? I mean, it’s easy to build a safe little box for ourselves, and, and even though might not be the kind of box we want to be in, it’s easy to kind of be in it. And it was shocking me, Brian, how many people? I mean, not having that every single person that I talked to, said said, I kind of tell you super quick story about this. In Mexico. So all along the way. Anytime you’re doing anything crazy, right? You’re starting a podcast and you’re starting to counsel people, you’ve got a question yourself, like, Am I really making an impact? Is this really worth doing? You know, am I faking it? Whatever, right? Yeah. So, but it’s nice to get some reinforcement going, Okay, maybe if I even impacted one person. Okay, let’s go. I’m gonna keep going. Back another keep going. It kind of fuels you to get rid of those insecurities. Right?

Brian Smith 27:11
So absolutely.

David Richman 27:12
Right. Right. So you know, so so all along the way, when I’m talking to people so good that I go on the same theme, like I never talked about never talked about so you get their point. So I’m in New Mexico, there with my friend Jerry, my wife is there she was my fiance at the time. My kids are still in school, so they can’t can’t be on this with me. And Jerry’s parents are Jerry’s family takes me out for brunch, I’m on the middle of a bike ride I got I got a free days, my first day off, like an 11 days in Mexico. And, and and as we’re getting ready to sit down to this big family, big close Mexican family, and the dad, who’s he’s got to beans, late 70s, maybe early 80s. And he pulls me aside. He says, Come here, my boy. And I said, Yeah, and he says, Hey, listen, I appreciate what you’re doing. You know, I’d like to talk about it too much. But, you know, you know, 15 years ago, you know, I went to cancers, pretty serious. But you know, I made it through and you rely on family and you know, dinner, but to work and whatever. He says, you know, this thing about talking about what’s in here, and it points to what’s hard and talking about what’s in here, because those things are so important. And I want to thank you, that’s really nice. And then just as we’re sitting down, his daughter is my buddy’s sister. She’s like, in her early 50s. And she waves me over and I come over and she goes, you know, Jerry told you this, but um, I had pretty severe case of breast cancer and made me leave my job and become a lobbyist for patient rates and follow by It was really my journey. And just this whole concept of you talking to people about their emotions is so important. And I’m really glad that you’re doing so we sit down, we had this big brunch with the big family and the whole thing was laughing and joking, whatever. And I’m like, Wow, man, if every family couldn’t just be like this, right? How awesome. They all are. They’re all in it together. Yeah. So get up and I think I’m and I’ve always not everybody that that is like this. And I says, I looked at a dad I go for you to be able to trust your family and trust yourself and talk about this stuff. And he looks down and puts his hands in his lap. And they go What? And he said, Oh no, no, no, no, I didn’t I didn’t talk about this stuff. He said he said I didn’t want to burden my family. school you know you do what you do you get through it. You don’t want to bring other people down. And I’m like, but you just told me. Yes. Good thing. You’re writing the book. And it was well it’s good thing that you’re doing it because you could teach people how to look at the daughter. And I go well, at least you? Well you just told me about how family about Alicia were able to talk to your dad and dad. She looks down and puts her hands in her lap and she shakes her head. When she looks up, she starts crying. And she goes, Yeah, I didn’t talk to anybody about this. I didn’t talk to my dad. He could have lost a daughter. I didn’t want him to feel guilty. I didn’t want him to remember his cancer. I didn’t want him to. I didn’t want to burden him with my, with my staff. I said, but you’re so close. They go, we are. And they go, but you told me is a good thing. I’m doing this book. And they go, we are that we just don’t we just don’t talk about it. Yeah. Like, ah, so keep going. Because you know, that it’s so common. So universal, locked up that part of us?

Brian Smith 30:41
Absolutely. And and maybe that is a part of, you know, what, we’ve talked about this abandonment thing? You know, because sometimes it seems like the people that are closest to us are the ones we can’t talk to about it, which which gets me to so how did you get these these strangers, these people to open up to you on the level that you got to tell these 15 stores?

David Richman 31:03
Um, I paid them whatnot, entertainment. I sold goods, you know, really set out to do something. First of all, I think they were partly okay doing it, because I told them that, that then the entirety of the net proceeds. So whatever I make less the cost of what it is to do it 100% of that’s going to go to a charity of their choice. So we divide up the hundred percent of profits gets divided up between each one’s particular cancer focused, charity or other charity. Mm hmm. Then we divide it up. So the fact that they knew I wasn’t trying to make money off the thing was a big deal. Yeah, I think that at least they weren’t. They were all almost all of them were strange. One of them was a stranger. So at least they trusted me. And then he said to him, Look, here’s what the gold book is. The goal of the book is to start conversation. It’s hard. It’s hard to have these conversations, right. It’s super, super hard. And when I talked to him, just a couple of times, we had to agree about the fact that they hadn’t processed their emotions. Right? Not one single person said they had not one person said I’m at peace with everything that’s going on in my life. Right. Right. Wow. So they all believed in that premise, hmm. That pay exposing themselves. That if I were able to write it properly, that people might learn from it. And if they were able to learn from it, they might know how to talk to people when they’ve had loss, they might know better to understand that the loss is not maybe the only dimension affecting their emotions might not be the only facet, maybe that loss is a remembrance of, of 10 losses they had earlier in their life or what, you know what I’m saying that there’s just people just aren’t one dimensional. And I thought by and they believed in the fact that if I exposed their stories, and we went on this emotional journey together, or they talked about their emotional journey, like they hadn’t heard before, that we might be able to help people start conversations and going into it with those two premises, then it was just a matter of being able to ask them questions, and really listen, and I think people trust you if they’re listening, if you’re listening to that.

Brian Smith 33:38
Yeah. Well, I think another part might have been the fact that you’re coming at it from the from the passing, I don’t use the word loss, because I don’t I we could talk about this, you know, later on what you believe about what happened to your sister June, but I don’t the passing of your sister, I think that gives you some credibility in their eyes, right? You’re here because you’ve gone through this. And I want to ask you, though, so you’re doing this project help other people here heal? They’re doing the project so they can help other people heal?

David Richman 34:06

Brian Smith 34:07
Was there any healing? Do you think that went on with yourself? Are there other subjects of the book?

David Richman 34:13
Is it? It’s a great question, Brian. And I do know, and I feel really proud of the fact that a couple of people in the in the book, a couple of them had some very, very profound transformations of heel appeal efforts. And I’m very proud of that, because I actually feel very honored to have been a part of that, or, and I’m not saying this to bring attention to the fact that I was but it’s very self satisfying to know that I’m, I might have been a prompt for that. Absolutely. So that’s a good thing, right? It’s a good thing. We don’t always get to measure the good things that we’ve done. Or be reminded of them never you know, or we even sometimes are guilty even acknowledge them, right? Yeah, I want to know, right. So that’s. So when it comes to my, my own healing, I think I have gotten a little bit better about it. You know, I talked to somebody recently, who asked me a question I hadn’t pondered. It seems like an obvious question, but I hadn’t pondered it. And they said, Hey, Jim is looking down on you. And you could have a channel right now to talk to her, and what would she say about what to do? And I thought to myself, wow, that’s a good question. And, and, and I think she would say, first of all, is making her crowd, which is nice. Because you don’t, you don’t know that. But I think I think that, and then I also think that she would say that your, your, what you’re doing is meaningful. You know, and I think, as trite as it might sound, to say, something good can come from something bad. To know that you’re trying to do something meaningful, is, is this a deep thing that could come from from negativity? Absolutely.

Brian Smith 36:08
Absolutely. And I tell you, Dave, I, you know, I get people asking me to bring authors on, you know, with different books and, and, frankly, a lot of my dunk because I’m not really interested in him. But when I when I got your, the proposal to bring you on, and I looked at the book and I looked at the the healing that comes from the book and the healing, again, I think a lot of times when we set out to help other people along the way, we actually end up helping ourselves. That’s why I wanted to ask you that question. Because I just I find that like I said, the the metaphor of the endurance athlete and the way we live our lives, I just think it’s such such a perfect metaphor. And you’re getting cross, you know, getting your bike and riding across the country, and I used to bike ride some so I can, I can imagine the pain that you’re, you know, that you went through the actual literal, physical pain, to put this project together, to to put this project out to the world to help other people, you know, to understand and to to know, and I’m not alone, you know, first of all, you we read these stories, and, and I read the stories, and I’m like, wow, you know, these people, some of these poor people just seemed like things just kept happening to them kept happening to them. But they kept overcoming and overcoming.

David Richman 37:17
Yeah. Yeah. And, and you’re right. And, and it is a great metaphor. I mean, it’s a great metaphor, but but I’ll tell you, it’s this is going to sound strange, because people are going to be like, really? How do you? How do you bite? 15 hours? Right? Sleep for six and get by 12? Like, that’s just physically it’s just ridiculous right? There. Right? But I’ll tell you, why Y Brian, why did this continue to do and more and further, endurance, athletics wasn’t for the physical. Right? It was for the mental. Because when you think about it, you go, Oh, I want to I want to break from life. I’m going to, I’m going to go have a drink and sit in front of it. But I want to break from life. I’m going to go to a movie, oh, I want to break in life. I’m going to go for a hike with my girlfriend or my boyfriend or my buddy, I’m gonna go bowling, I’m going to whatever you do to take a break, that break very rarely involves meditation very rarely involves doing, you know, things that where you’re looking inwardly for more than a fraction of a period of time. Yeah. I’ll tell you that. When you run for an hour, you’re not thinking about a lot. But you run for 25 hours, you get to think about what yeah, I can only imagine. Yeah. I mean, you get to think about a lot. When you go out on a on a on a 30 minute walk. You can think a lot go for a 12 hour walk and see if you don’t come back to some revelations. And so I think that endurance athletics, especially for somebody that’s in the middle, I’m not trying to win. I’m not trying to look look good. I’m not. I’m not trying to impress anybody. I’m just trying to do and, and it does allow for some serious contemplation.

Brian Smith 39:06
Yeah, absolutely. I hadn’t really thought of it that way. But awesome. I don’t run but I walk seven miles every day. So

David Richman 39:13
long. That takes you a while.

Brian Smith 39:15
It takes about an hour and a half. Yes. So but it’s it’s I was just talking to someone earlier about this. It’s a time for me to meditate or listen to a podcast or listen to some uplifting music. So that’s my that’s my first thing in the morning that I do to kind of turn within from for myself. I think that’s so I never really thought about this view. If you run long distances, it’s a great time to meditate.

Unknown Speaker 39:39

David Richman 39:40
I’ll tell you why. The first time I went for a super long run that 50 mile race in Vegas, in the heat. It’s called running with the devil. And it’s and then they do one in January. That’s called running with an angel. So it’s St. 50 mile thing but one’s cold weather one tower. Wow. So therefore the names And when I say high, it was like 120 degree shot. Oh, wow. And so I am, I’m taking off on this run late, I’m tired of cranky, it’s gonna be worn, although I like the heat, it’s gonna be warm, and I’m not feeling the greatest or whatever. And then I started running and about like a mile in, I start going,

Unknown Speaker 40:21

David Richman 40:22
you know, I have this internal discussion with myself, I got it 49 miles to go, and this can be brutal. And then I said, Dude, calm down, and I was paying you to do this, right? Nobody asked you to do this. You’re doing it for yourself a grunt, grab a different perspective. Like, seriously, get over yourself and grab a different perspective. And you know what I did for the next four hours until I turned around at the mile 25. Part. I literally Brian, I focused on that word perspective. And I said, Oh, you mean perspective? You mean like a movie maker and all the different perspectives, and I thought of all the different movies and what perspective they were shot from perspective, like, even how you walk into a room and are perceived by other, and I just literally contemplated their word perspective, for four hours, and I went into my life with every opportunity to do that.

Brian Smith 41:14
Yeah. Yeah, that is that is deep. That is really awesome. And it’s, you chose where perspective was, I was, right before we got on this call was talk with the client about. And the whole thing about life is perspective. It’s all about perspective, we can, we can be in the exact same situation. And we can choose how we look at that situation. And we can choose to look at the blessings, if you want to call it from that, or the curses or whatever. And it’s all it’s all a matter of how we choose to look at it.

David Richman 41:43
Yeah, I totally agree with you, Brian perspective is really it really is everything right? And, and it also allows us to relate to people too, if you understand the perspective, because if you can just maybe take a different view, and maybe just slide a tad bit. And really try really try to be on their side to see what they’re seeing. or allow them to come to your site and see what you’re seeing. Yeah, eating up perspectives. And that’s why when I wrote the book, Brian, I did a mess first person. Originally when I wrote it, I wrote it with me in the story, each one of the stories that kind of told it as me talking to them and whatever. And my editor, she looked at me and she said, Dude, she goes, you need to take yourself out of these stories. It’s not about me. It’s about them. And I said, Well, okay, but I want to do like first person perspective, third person that she was absolutely not, she goes, you can write these stories as if it’s them talking, you have to get into there, you’ve got so far into their head, you’ve got to present their stories as them. Mm hmm. So each one of the stories is told first person. Yeah, I had to place myself and into their heads and their hearts and make it first person from that from their story. And because I really cared about listening, and because I was dealing with very personal things with people. I really took that exercise seriously where I had to take their perspective, or try try my best to

Brian Smith 43:14
Yeah, I think you did a great job. But I like the way you interspersed your own thing with your journey was awesome along with them, because I want to know about you as well. And you do I think you do a good job of blending the two. So if you and I know they’re 15 stories, I can ask you to pick your favorite story, but just real quickly, give us a flavor for what one of the stories is.

Unknown Speaker 43:37

David Richman 43:37
can I keep on the theme of your of kind of the themes that you talked about in your podcast? Can I give you that one be great? Because it’s one that that shocked. It really shocked me to know and and I’m going to tell you I know that have used the word this will be the third time I’ve used it while we’re talking try to come up with another word for that. But you know, an artist looks at their own work and they go You know, a lot of actors like they never could watch their own movie because I can’t see myself because I’d be too critical of myself. Or you know, Alger Silva when he was nominated a sexiest man alive, he says, I look in the mirror and see me that seems like sexy, right? So it’s harder to get your own stuff and and not every story moves me every time I read it. And again, because of the writing process and had been rewritten in many different editors and all this stuff. I’ve had to go through the stories a lot there’s there’s a few stories that still move give me chills, made me a little weeping because I saw identify with these people. And I never expected this point three I’m gonna tell you that affect me the way that it did and the way it continues to affect me. And that is I’m not gonna To give the whole story away, because I’m hoping some people go out and buy the book so that the money can go to charity. And then there’ll be surprised when they read it is that this woman, she was introduced to me by a friend, who said, You’re not going to believe the story. So I’m not going to tell it to you, I’m gonna let her challenge because it’s not it’s not it’s literally not believable, but she tells it to you. And you’re going to, you’re going to determine whether or not you believe it or not. And it was the story of this woman, who very athletic, married, happily married a two young kids. And she gets cancer. She’s, she’s a, she’s an endurance athlete, athlete, very active outdoors person, and very positive. And she starts thinking to herself, very religious woman, very, very, very deep faith. She starts looking at herself, and she said, what I do wrong, man, to get this cancer, right, was unhealthy. I was an unhealthy, Was I a bad person not being a good person? Is it genetic? Nanami. My family is as was environmental now. So she goes to her head of all these things that it could be, and she lands on the one thing it could. And God is fighting for something. That’s the only thing she can come up with, is God has decided that she deserves this cancer. And so she makes a deal with the devil. And she says, I will make you a deal. You give me 10 years, that’s all I mean, because that my kids can get out of house by that. As long as my boys are gone. You go ahead and take them. But give me those 10 years. And you can have my soul forever, huh? pretty deep, right? Yeah. And I can understand somebody having a song. It wasn’t a tape, just you could do anything, just don’t let this happen or just make this happen? Or whatever I can I can relate to it. I can relate to it. Yeah. Right. First one in a deep faith, for her to literally walk out of a church and close the doors behind her and say out loud. Take me, I’m yours. Just give me 1010 years. Yeah. So what happens to her in this journey of 10 years? And what happens to her right at the 10 year mark? You literally will not believe? Yeah, I mean, it shocked you. Literally it’s hard to believe what happens there. And and it’s a story about how, how she regains her faith. And goes kind of full circle down that whole emotional journey. And it’s really profound. It’s super profound, very unbelievable, from the outside. And once you once you’re in your head, and you understand what she’s going through, and you hear her tell the story. You believe it? Yeah, that’s one of my favorites.

Brian Smith 48:09
Yeah. Well, they’re I think they’re, they’re all good. And I can said, we mean to ask you to pick a favorite just one just give us a little bit of a flavor for what’s for what’s in the book. Because one of the questions that, you know, I asked your public publisher for some questions, and when the question was, are all the stories heavy? Are there any uplifting stories in the book? So I’m gonna let you answer it, then I’ll answer it.

David Richman 48:28
Okay. Most definitely, there are uplifting stories in the book. Most definitely. And, um, and not just uplifting stories in the book, but there are themes that are uplifting. For me, it was shocking, shocking to me how many people that I did not know, stopped and said, Oh, what are you doing? Can I help you? Do you need help? or whatever? Do you mind if I pray for you? Hmm. Like, what do you want to pray for me for Dude, I’m just a guy in a bike. Like, right across. Cuz you know, you know, we need to pray for you to be safe. We pray to get your message out. And I was kind of moved by that because I’m not a very deeply religious person. I have some hard beliefs and strong beliefs. But that came as a shock to me that open. That’s a very positive thing, right? how people are willing, how very positive how everybody wants to talk about these things. Very positive, sir. Some very positive themes throughout the book. Not every story is heavy. But I’m going to say we do it heavy subjects in every story. Yeah.

Brian Smith 49:41
Yeah, for sure. Sure.

David Richman 49:43
Right. Certainly the goal is not to burden people, but it’s to get them to understand the journeys that people went on, and what kind of things they overcome, or might still be trying to overcome, so that we can better identify with what they’re going through what people we care about are going through, better recognize what we’re going through. And there are a lot of very positive outcomes. In the book, there’s some negative no question, but this reality of life, I guess.

Brian Smith 50:14
Yeah. And I and from my perspective, gave it I can see why people would think you know, it’s the cycle of life is about all these people with cancer. Why don’t want to rebook like that. But it’s, it’s, it’s very uplifting. And it’s, I see the the power of the human spirit coming through throughout this book, I see, you know, the commonality of humanity, we think, I’m going through this, I’m the only one that’s ever gone through anything like this, you know, whoa, is me. And we read this book, and we go, Okay, wow, this this person’s got through something is bad. We always want to compare this is worse when I’m going through that, that that age old question that you just touched upon? Why me know, I was why do bad things happen to good people, what we call bad things. And I and I know people that have that have had cancer or dealt with cancer. That said, it’s actually one of the best things that ever happened to me. And help and understanding that perspective. The fact that, you know, you, in my opinion, honoring your sister with this work, I mean, I just think it’s fantastic that you take something like your sister’s passing, and you turn it into this beautiful piece of work. So people say, Well, you know, this bad thing happened, what good could ever come out of it, that this project itself is inspiring and uplifting. So I would encourage people to get the book, first of all, because I think it’s a great book. And I think you’ll get a lot out but also supporting this, this great cause that you’re doing. And it reminds me, I just interviewed someone very recently a project called speaking grief, and speaking grief. org. And they just, they just put together a film of people just talking about the grief and i’m, i’m i’m loving seeing people talk about grief, talking about hardship, talking about overcoming. And you touched on earlier, these families, we sit around the table with the people that are supposed to be the closest in our lives. And we can’t share these things with them. But this gives us an outlet, right? This gives us this gives us not an excuse. But this gives us permission to share those things, you know, and talk about them and process them.

David Richman 52:23
Yeah, and we’re just gonna sound a little self serving, serving brand. But yesterday, I’m on the phone with the director, Interim Director, Director of this one, cancer organizations out on maternity leave. So there’s an intern director, and I called her up and there’s some things we’re trying to do to help promote the book or whatever. And I said, How far are you in the book? And she was on like, at this point, and I said, What do you think? And she goes, I did something I’ve never done before. And what she said, Well, one of the people in the book we both know, okay, she said, I thought I knew this person. She goes, but when I read what happened to him, she goes, I literally could ask my husband, she said, I literally posture book across the room. I was so angry at what happened to him. It’s so affected me. I thought I knew him. And I am so sorry. I didn’t know this about him. I was so angry about what happened to him. And I went, well, if that’s a good thing, right? what he went through was not good. It was the worst thing ever. But, but the fact that you could identify and you could feel about it, and maybe that’s going to open up a new avenue for you to be able to talk to him about it. Maybe you understand better his perspective. Yeah, that’s right.

Brian Smith 53:46
Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s, I think it’s a great thing. And we keep we all run around Maslen. And so even the people that think they know us, they don’t really know us. And, you know, it’s interesting, it takes a project like this to read about someone that we thought we knew and say, Oh, I didn’t know this about this person. Because we don’t we don’t give ourselves permission to to be real with each other.

David Richman 54:08
Absolutely true. Absolutely true.

Brian Smith 54:11
So we didn’t talk about this before, but I you know, you mentioning that, you know, my show is there’s a lot of metaphysical use that word, I guess, you know, themes to my show. And I know you listen to some of the things I talked about. So what are your beliefs? You said some of the some of the stories have negative outcomes. But what are your beliefs? What happens to people when when their body stops functioning?

David Richman 54:34
put me on the spot. I’m not I’m not sure that I know. You know, I? I honestly, I don’t know. But I didn’t know what I believe. I think what I believe I’m not positive about this. But I think what I believe is what a couple of your previous guests have touched upon that we are somewhat maybe just a form of energy and So if we are a form of energy, then you know, energy can be related to time. Because in order to measure energy, you have to measure it against something you’ve measured in time. Right? And we are here for the briefest blinks of time. But we’re pretty big force and energy. So if that is true, and we are just a piece of energy, and collectively, the amount of energy through the history of time in the history of people when they die, that’s a pretty big powerful source. So I guess I believe that when people transition, we passed it down. How do you want to view it? That I think I think somehow some way, they still remain part of some piece of energy. And I’m not sure how that’s manifested. I’m not sure. What what happens over time. But I got to believe that as the universe is expanding, and and as we go through the next couple of million years, we’ll try to get closer those answers.

Brian Smith 56:09
Yeah, I know, that was a bit of an unfair question I threw at you. But I wanted to kind of throw it out there. Because as I said, you know, from, from my perspective, when I read the book, they’re all positive outcomes. And I have a very good friend who just recently passed up cancer. When was it? Time flies so fast? It was it was in May, I guess it was two years ago. And she had gone to a healer, an energy healer. And the thing is, you know that the healer worked on her. And then she passed, she transitioned. So people would say, Well, she wasn’t healed. She wasn’t healed of her cancer. But she was healed, she was healed of all the spiritual stuff she had going on when she was here, all the all the junk that she needed to clear out. And once she was healed of that, in her spirit, than her body was ready to let her go. And she’s still an extremely powerful force, even to this day. And she’s she’s come to many of us, you know, since since she’s passed, so that’s, that’s my belief. So when I when I read your book, I don’t I don’t see any negative outcomes.

David Richman 57:08
Wow, that’s really cool. Man. I like that perspective. I mean, I certainly feel for people and see the things that they’ve had to deal with. But I’m also like you I’ve seen what they’ve overcome. And that is a positive and lightened thing. And it does. I think the story does, the stories in the book do give you a belief that, that you want to say people can handle more than they can handle and you push yourself to handle or forced to handle more than what you thought you could handle. But we can all take more. Right? We can all handle?

Brian Smith 57:40
Yeah, that’s the thing we need to we need to see the hero in ourselves. I mean, we read the books like I read Victor Frankel’s Man’s Search for Meaning, you know, being in a concentration camp, and we, we watch movies and stuff like that. And we think that somebody else they could do that, but I can’t do it. But I again, I think these books when we when we went out when we read your book, remember, these are common people, these are people just like you and I. And you said at the very beginning, it’s we we deal with what we have to deal with. Mm hmm.

David Richman 58:07
Yeah. And we and you know, and look at, thankfully, there’s people like you, that people can turn to, to help them try to better understand the things that they’re dealing with. And all you’re trying to do, and I’m not I’m sorry, this is not right. But I think what I’ve gotten from the three interaction I’ve had with with your voice, is that what you’re trying to do is help people deal with the difficult things to do. And provide them maybe with some avenues to explore, to help understand what they’re going through. And the fact that you’re willing to do that is having an effect on people. And sometimes when you want a profound effect on people, and that’s a good thing, right? That’s a good thing to not just stay in our bubble, and keep our masks on. It’s a good thing to open up and to help share. Because, you know, I mean, not everybody believes this, but I believe that part of why we’re here. So yeah, I Well,

Brian Smith 59:04
I believe that I believe that’s a big reason why we’re here. And I was I was again, just talking to a client right before we got on and we were talking about, you know, the idea of reincarnation and coming back and you know, lose when you when your child transitions, every single parent I’ve ever known says I’m never doing this again. And I’m like, don’t say never, because I think a lot of us come here to help other people. I think that’s the reason why we’re here. And I see what I see a project like the project, like your book project. And you just said that you just said it. I believe a big reason we’re here is to help other people. This is what you’re doing. You said, I’m going to take what happened to my sister I’m going to take with what’s going on in my life, this abandonment that I feel this loneliness I feel. And I’m going to turn it into something positive. I’m going to help other people processes feeling.

David Richman 59:47
Yeah. Yeah. And it’s nice. It’s nice to know when people say, wow, that moves me or Wow, that gave me a perspective I didn’t have that’s a neat as a neat thing to be able to do.

Brian Smith 59:57
Yeah, I think that’s what we’re here for. So Dave, I want to thank you very much for being on and I want to give people your contact information. So your website is David dash, Richmond calm. And that’s ch ma n. And the book link is David horseman.com, slash cycle of lives with dashes between cycle and lives. I’ll put that in the show notes. And for anybody that’s watching on YouTube, this is the book cover.

David Richman 1:00:23
Hey, look at that.

Brian Smith 1:00:25
So it’s David Richmond cycle of lies, 15 people’s stories 5000 miles in a journey through the emotional chaos of cancer. It’s an excellent book. It’s, it’s, it’s, as you said, there’s some heavy it’s a heavy subject, but I think you’ll come away feeling good after reading it.

David Richman 1:00:41
Thank you. Yeah, the books available wherever books are sold, Amazon, Barnes and Noble you name you could buy a signed copy on the website. And doesn’t matter where it’s bought varying levels of profit, depending on where you buy it. But hundred percent of the net on every atom goes to support these wonderful organizations. They’re all trying to make a difference and help people so I just think there’s nothing bad that can come of it.

Brian Smith 1:01:09
Yeah. Well, David, I want to again, thank you for being here. Thank you for your project. You add someone asks you what do you think Jim would think if she gets I know June is proud of you. And I know June is still with you. That’s that’s my belief.

David Richman 1:01:22
This way you say Damn, I’m finally starting to be able to process that. thought, you know, it’s hard. It’s hard. It’s a hard thing to think about, you know? Yeah, for sure. Okay.

Brian Smith 1:01:35
Oh, great. It’s good media. Enjoy the rest of your day

David Richman 1:01:37
on YouTube. Brian, take care. Thanks again. Really, really good. Thank you. Take care.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai


Terri is a long time friend and colleague. We have taught together several times and I am always impressed by how her knowledge of death, dying and grief has helped the people in our sessions.

Dr. Terri Daniel is a hospice and hospital-trained spiritual care provider and end-of-life educator.  She conducts workshops throughout the U.S. and teaches SPIRITUALITY AND BEREAVEMENT  to chaplaincy students at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, California. Terri  is also the founder of The Afterlife Conference and the Ask Doctor Death podcast, and is the author of four books on death, grief and the afterlife.
Terri had no idea what she’d be when she grew up until she was in her early 50s, when her son Danny died at age 16 after a long struggle with a rare metabolic disorder.  Danny began communicating with her after his death, and his  guidance — in this world and the next — changed everything. Starting out as a hospice volunteer, Terri went on to spend the next several years in academia, pursuing degrees in Religious Studies and Pastoral Counseling, and also launched The Afterlife Conference, which is now in its 11th year.

Over the years Terri has helped hundreds of people learn to live, die and grieve more consciously. Her work is  acclaimed  by hospice professionals, spiritual seekers, therapists theologians, and academics worldwide. You can find her at www.SpiritualityandGrief.com, and of course at www.AfterlifeConference.com




Brian Smith 0:01
Hey everybody, this is Brian back with another episode of grief to growth and today I’ve got with me my friend, Dr. Terry Daniel. Terry and I have known each other for I guess a couple of years now. Our passkey Krause and we’ve taught several classes together. And Terry’s a fascinating person gonna be really interested to hear his story, but I’m gonna introduce her dr. Terry Daniels, a hospice and hospital trained spiritual care provider and end of life educator. she conducts workshops throughout the US and teaches spirituality and bereavement to chaplaincy students at the Graduate theological union in Berkeley, California. Terry is also the founder of the afterlife conference, and the ask Dr. Death podcast and She’s the author of four books on death, grief and the afterlife. Terry had no idea what she’d be when she grew up until she was in her early 50s when her son Danny died at age 16. After a long struggle with a rare metabolic disorder, Danny began communicating with her after his death. And his guidance in this world of the next changed everything for Terry. She started out as a hospice volunteer, she went on to spec spend the next several years in academia, pursuing degrees in religious studies and pastoral counseling. And she also launched the afterlife conference, which is now in its 11th year. Now over the years, Terry has helped hundreds of people learn to die, live, die, and grieve more consciously. Her work is a claim by hospice, hospice professionals, spiritual seekers, therapists, theologians and academics worldwide. And you can find Terry at www spirituality and grief calm, and at www afterlife conference calm. So with that, I want to welcome Dr. Terry Daniel. Hey, Brian. Thank you, my friend. Hello. Hi, everybody. Really nice to be here. Yeah, Terry, it’s good to see you, again, haven’t talked to you in a while. So I’m looking forward to having this conversation with you. But sorry for our audience that doesn’t know you as well as I do. Tell me how your journey started?

Terri Daniel 1:49
Well, I started out as actually a very mystical and spiritual kid, I was always really in tune with my dreams, I was always getting messages and having feelings and all that. But I’m not a psychic or a medium. I preface my story to say that I was always kind of in tune with that stuff. I was always super fascinated by religion and spirituality, I was raised essentially with no religion. My parents were secularly and socially Jewish. But when I was about 16, I decided to read the Bible, just because I was curious about what all the fuss was about. We didn’t even have a Bible in my house, I had to go out and buy one. And I was I knew immediately on reading it that Oh, yeah, you’re not supposed to take this literally, you’re supposed to read between the lines and interpret everything. Then when I was 19, I read the Tibetan Book of the Dead. And books by some of the really popular mediums in those days, this was the 1960s, late 60s, and just kind of got on this spiritual path. In terms of what I do now, if you fast forward a whole lot of years to in my 40s, my 10 year old son was diagnosed with a rare life threatening illness, and given five to 10 years to live. And he died at 16 and began communicating with me very clearly and in great detail 30 minutes after his death. So from that, I wrote my first book, a swan and heaven. And I felt like all my spiritual preparation that I had done all those years, was really just leading me up to that to, you know, having to deal with the death of a child. Because I had so many sort of Buddhist leanings, I believed in reincarnation, I believed in soul contracts. And when he was diagnosed, and everybody around me was freaking out and falling apart. And I was too, of course, I still had this other feeling about it, which was, oh, what an interesting plan we apparently have, together, he’s gonna die at 16. And I do all this spiritual stuff, and there must be some connection between those two things. And so along with the grief and the fear, and all the sadness of losing him, I also had this other thing going on, which was curiosity about the spiritual and metaphysical meaning to all of it. And that really helped me not become devastated by grief, but to kind of become friends with grief. And kind of walk hand in hand with it. Yeah, so so you had this this spirituality before and you have this this studying of death and the afterlife and all that, but then when Danny died transitioned, is that when you started the academic aspect of it, because I know you

You kind of like went fast forward, and everything did well. So when Danny died, you know, I mean, he had a long illness, he was disabled severely for the last half of his life. And so it was a long process of preparing for his death. And at his actual death, he’s the first person that I ever saw die. And of course, I was at the bedside, not when he took his last breath, I was actually vacuuming the house, when he took his last breath happens often that way. But the process of being with the person as they’re dying, especially in the active, dying phase, when they’re really not fully in their bodies, is so mystical and beautiful. That after I went through that with him, I thought, I want to do this some more, I want to be in that space with people. So I became a hospice volunteer, but I couldn’t really do that until a year had passed. Because with hospices, they don’t let you volunteer, until you’ve been 13 months out from your loss. So I started as a hospice volunteer. And I started witnessing people, the dying people and their loved ones, having really deep existential questions about God and afterlife, and all of that. And I really wanted to talk to them about that. But as a volunteer, we’re not allowed to have those kinds of conversations with people because it’s just too iffy. In in a hospice setting, because you never know if a volunteer is going to, like, evangelize and try to save their soul or you just, it’s just not safe to let volunteers do that. Only trained people can do that. So I said, I want to do that. So I decided to go to college at age 56. And I got a first I got a bachelor’s degree in religious studies. And I did that so that I could understand what people were thinking and believing around death. And so I could understand the different perspectives of different religions. And then I realized I want to be a hospice chaplain. So I did chaplaincy training, and got a master’s in pastoral care, and did a bunch of internships. And during the chaplaincy internships, I realized I didn’t actually want to be a chaplain, because I’m a better talker than a listener. And I decided I wanted to be a teacher. So then I went to school some more and got a doctorate. And now I am really in a place that I love. I’m now teaching chaplaincy, students who are going through that same path that I went through. I teach death, dying and bereavement. I teach a course called spirituality and bereavement, and another one spirituality and chronic illness, and doing one on spiritual care for marginalized communities. So it all happened, you know, I was said to somebody just yesterday,

if my son hadn’t died, and introduced me to the experience of grief and loss,

I wouldn’t be where I am today. I don’t know what my life would be like, but it I feel like it wouldn’t be as productive and meaningful and useful in the world and in the culture as it is because he died. Yeah, you know, it’s really interesting how Thanks, Brian. Yeah, yeah, it’s interesting how those things work out. And I know for myself, when my daughter passed, I was like, This is the worst thing that could ever possibly happen. And when people say something good can come out of it. I was, I would say about nothing. Nothing good can come from this, but we just have to trust and allow time to kind of bring to us what we’re supposed to be doing. And and, and what you’re doing now is just like, phenomenal. And you said you wouldn’t be doing it if it weren’t for Danny for Danny dying. So what have you learned, you know, you, you went through the experience of grief, and then you then you did the high academic thing. So what did you learn from your academic studies of grief and death and dying? Well,

I learned a whole lot and I learned things that I wish more people would learn. We You know, one of the first things I learned was that most of the people who are out there talking about grief and teaching about grief today don’t have adequate training and don’t actually know what they’re talking about. And there’s a lot of really bad grief advice floating around out there. And let’s go back a little bit. right about the time when I started the undergrad program. That’s when I also started the afterlife conference. And that sort of ties in to how when I learned about grief, so

very early on

this national bereavement group for brief parents that compassionate friends which I’m sure you know of

They were having a conference in Portland where I lived. This was 2009. And I had just written my first book about communication with my son. And I pitched them and said, Hey, can I come and you know, do a presentation about after death communication? And they said, Absolutely not. We don’t allow that content. Or it’s very upsetting to our parents. We don’t allow anybody to talk about anything spiritual or talking to dead people. We don’t do that. So I got really upset. And I said, Well, if they’re not going to allow that at their conference, I guess I’m just gonna have to start one of my own. There were no other afterlife conferences back then. So I started this, and I reached out to people who at that time were well known in this field who had written books like, for example, Bill Guggenheim, who all your listeners know. Yeah, wrote Hello from heaven. Sandy Goodman, I had a book called Love never dies very well known. Lula grande was another guy can’t remember all of them at this point. But

I called them and I said, Hey, kids, let’s put on a show. And he became the founding members of the afterlife conference. So one of the first things I learned about grief and loss, is that there wasn’t enough of a forum out in the world for people to approach it from a spiritual, metaphysical, non religious perspective. Yeah, I think that’s really interesting, Terry, as you said, when you just said that very last part for spiritual, metaphysical, non religious perspective, because we could go to a traditional pastor or priest or whatever, and they can talk to us from a religious perspective. Or we could go to a traditional grief counselor who may not believe in the afterlife. And I think that’s, I think that’s what’s missing is that person that can talk about it from a metaphysical spiritual perspective, but not a religious perspective. And I know when I went to see a grief counselor briefly, it was just, it didn’t help me at all. Because the guy there was no talk about where my daughter was, or what the plan was, or anything like that.

Yeah, so that Thank you. That was You’re right, Brian, that’s so you need some job description, some person who can talk about it from the metaphysical perspective, and the psychological perspective. And that’s what you want in a good grief counselor that has the psychology background and knows the grief research and all this stuff, and also knows the myriad of afterlife scenarios and different ways that people might look at it. You know, they’ve done a lot of studies in the field of grief research now on does grief counseling help? And the conclusion is no. Right? And and for different reasons than you might think. I mean, one reason is exactly what you said is counseling generally doesn’t include a spiritual component. Most counselors and therapists are not trained in spiritual care and spiritual work. But the other reason it doesn’t work is because

grief is not a disorder that needs to be treated.

So really, all counseling does, and it’s good. This is a good thing is it gives you someone to talk to who will who is interested in listening to you. Because, you know, as we all know, our friends and family cannot hold our grief, they can’t, they don’t want to hear about it. You can only talk to them about it up to a very limited amount of time. And either they get very uncomfortable, or they get very upset and they start to grieve and feel pain, too. And then you have to take care of them. Yeah. Right. So we can’t rely on friends and family to be our grief support system to that degree. So counseling is great for that. But

it doesn’t provide a treatment, because grief doesn’t need treatment.

Brian Smith 13:56
Yeah, yeah, I think that’s really important. What you just said, yeah.

Terri Daniel 14:00
Yeah. Now grief does need treatment when it gets into complicated grief. And so complicated grief is is nowadays literally a diagnosable disorder. And it’s, there’s all this criteria of what constitutes it. There is even a time frame, but we don’t really pay much attention to the timeframe. But for example, if you lost an aging parent, let’s say your 90 year old mother died, this is a normal, unnatural, unexpected death, your grief response would be within certain boundaries of normal for such a loss. Totally different than if your five year old kid gets run over by a car. Right, right. But in a normal death of an aging parent, you know, six months later, you should be pretty much stabilized. Right? functional, enjoying life again, having healthy relationships. Creating your new life. If three years after that death, you’re still depressed. And I hear from people all the time who say things to me like my mother died 10 years ago, I still can’t believe she’s gone. I can’t live without her. That’s complicated grief.

Brian Smith 15:15
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. Because I’ve seen even with, even with the passing of a child, even though it’s different from a parent, you know, I went to some of these grief groups that you talked about, and I won’t name the groups. But what did some of these groups and someone 10 1520 years after the child pass is just as bitter as they were the day that they passed, and it’s gonna take longer with the child to get there. But it should, you should be able to make some sort of progress in 10 or 15 or 20 years,

Terri Daniel 15:43
you should make some for to sort of progress in two or three years. Yeah, no matter how tragic the death is. And you know, you and I both know, people, Brian, whose children have died in a horrible, tragic, violent ways. And we hear these stories every day. And so this is why the diagnostic criteria for complicated grief is kind of full of crap. Because it says six months, yeah, and I know that if your child is killed in a drive by shooting, you’re not going to be stabilized in six months,

Brian Smith 16:13
right? No, because

Terri Daniel 16:14
everything in your world changes not just your role as a parent and your relationship with a child. But, you know, that has like social and political elements to it, you know, there’s just so much around it. So the point being normal grief, doesn’t require a therapeutic intervention. Mm hmm. And that’s why grief counseling doesn’t generally work. I mean, I’d love to see all the grief counselors out there, get some spiritual training, along with doctors and nurses and everybody else.

Brian Smith 16:47
Yeah, that’s all I really like about, you know, working with uteri, because as I said, when I when I think about traditional grief counseling, which is basically when the past at least was your your loved one has gone get over it move on with your life. I just don’t think that’s satisfactory to most people, again, especially with a parent, maybe an aging parent, or grandmother or something, but especially when it comes to like the loss of a child, I think people need more than that to hold on to,

Terri Daniel 17:13
or the loss of a spouse, you know, at a young age, your 35 year old wife, I mean, all these things. And we just part of the problem is we don’t have these tools. In our culture, we’re very death avoidant culture, we have almost no meaningful rituals around death. So if you go to, you know, most in almost all indigenous societies, and pretty much anywhere outside of the Western, Judeo Christian world, you’re going to find really beautiful processes for facing death, or going through the loss dealing with the grief, finding, meaning, having a spiritual practice, that incorporates that meaning into the rest of your life, we don’t have any of that here, we have a funeral, which for most people is really meaningless. Because if they’re do it through their church, or some tradition that they’re not really bought into all that much, it becomes really meaningless. And people are in shock when they’re planning a funeral. And they’re not really paying attention. And there’s so many different things that we can do. Other than that, to learn how to be with death and loss.

Brian Smith 18:29
Yeah, you know, that’s one things I’ve really learned working with you as, as we’ve taught over the years, is this. The importance of rituals, and the fact that we don’t really have any in our culture. So I’ve seen you bring these rituals in, and they’re always coming from somewhere else. Because our culture is kind of like, I don’t know, if we had the one time we forgot them or what but there’s really, there’s not much, you know, and we don’t talk about that. So it’s and then the rituals I’ve seen you provide the people are so uplifting and so helpful and, and help people because you’ve got a process that you know, we get, and we I think we have a tendency, I was listening to someone talk this morning about when their father killed himself. And the mother came and just said, Okay, well, we’re just gonna, we’re not gonna talk about this, except in like, 1970, we’re just not going to talk about we’re gonna move on. I think there’s still a lot of that in our, in our culture, we just don’t understand how to talk about grief. And that’s what I really appreciate about you know, what you’re doing with your with your podcast, and all the things that you do.

Terri Daniel 19:28
Well, and I appreciate that about what you’re doing, Brian, you know, you just you’ve put yourself on this public forum that is addressing all this stuff. And I don’t know how big your following is, but I hope it’s really really, really big because you have a lot of really great stuff to share. Yeah, you know, it’s interesting. It’s interesting how you said that it’s like all those ceremonies and stuff that I do do come from somewhere else, all of them 100% never found one from modern America, and even if you Look at you know, pre America, like, you know, the history of basically Anglo Christian white people is what we’re talking about. And you know, the people who settled here, for example, okay, so we can go, we’ll go back to England, and Europe and Rome. And it really was the onset of Christianity or really monotheism, you know, the Hebrew tradition that really started taking all that stuff away. Yeah. Because prior to the Old Testament prior to the Hebrews, we had these pagan cultures all over the Middle East and the room, oh, there’s no roman empire that time but, and they had beautiful traditions for death and birth, and reproduction, and honoring nature. And all this stuff and the Judeo Christian culture, just strip that all away and wrapped it up in Scripture stories.

Brian Smith 20:55
Yeah, you know, I was talking to I was working with a couple over the weekend, it was on the 31st. So it’s the day of the dead, you know. And they’re, they’re in San Francisco. So they said, but they showed me the altar that they had built and the food that they laid out and all this stuff. And I said, Well, I didn’t realize that, you know, that was a big thing in San Francisco. They said, well, there’s a big Mexican culture, I guess, there. And so they were doing this, I was like, What a great ritual to have that, as we’re going in. And as I described it, we’re going into the darkest part of the year. Now we’re going into Halloween, and we just change the clocks for and we’re coming into Christmas, and everything’s getting darker, and a lot of us really dread that. But the way that they were talking about it, it’s like this is when the veil gets thinner. This is when we feel closer to our loved ones. It was just a beautiful way of looking at it. That unfortunately, didn’t come from our culture.

Terri Daniel 21:42
Well, and you know, we’re really came from it’s interesting, because Halloween, it’s funny, just this last Halloween on Saturday, I actually performed a pagan wedding on the front. It was so wonderful. where it came from is the ancient European pagans. Yeah, who had a festival called sawin, which celebrated exactly what you said on this date. November 1, basically, is the day according to their tradition, when the veil was the thinnest, and the dead people could just kind of really come through. And so that’s where that started. The Catholic Church got hold of it, and turned it into All Saints Day. And then Hallmark greeting cards got hold of it didn’t tell the win. But there are many among us who recommend and then of course, it became the day of the dead in the Latin cultures. Yeah. And they have a mix of the Catholic version with the indigenous Aztec, Mayan stuff. That’s your ancestry. And that’s what you see on those Day of the Dead altars. But they still believe that the dead come through on this day and you open your door to your house and you give them food. And candy. That’s what it that’s what ends and little kids are going around dressed up like skeletons and ghosts and collecting candy. And they have no idea why.

Brian Smith 23:04
Yeah, and that’s the thing. And she did mention sewing because one of the one of the people in the couple, she is pagan. So she mentioned solloway, and then even All Saints Day, but we don’t really it’s not in our culture is that really taken that way, I guess it’s just become a silly thing just become was just put on the costume or walk around to get candy. And there are a couple I was working with their son, it just passed early this year. So this is their first time going through this. And it was just so you know, so meaningful to them. And it set up this altar and everything. And it just it just changed everything. I think the way that they were looking at it that was really healthy. And have

Terri Daniel 23:37
that to have something like that does change everything.

Brian Smith 23:41

Terri Daniel 23:42
Yeah. And and most people don’t have that, you know, they might, like in the Jewish tradition, you light a candle on the anniversary of the person’s death. Hmm, that’s it. Yeah, that’s, that’s, I mean, that’s what I grew up with. And there are deeper traditions than that. But in most modern Jewish families, they don’t go any deeper than that. I don’t know what they do in the Catholic tradition. I don’t know what they do in the evangelical tradition. I know evangelicals have really long funerals that lasts all day long. Yeah. What do they do in a year?

Brian Smith 24:16
Anything? There’s really, there’s really not much that I know of. And I know, as you and I, you know, we’ve worked together we’ve been teaching we show people the altars that you and I both build, yeah, the response that people give when they see the altar that we have to honor our ancestors are children, for Narcos, our children who have passed and how we keep that as part of our lives. I think it really helps people say you realize there’s something that they’re missing if they don’t, if they don’t work with someone like yourself, and learn these things that you’re teaching.

Terri Daniel 24:46
You know, do you want to show your alter on this recording that we’re doing right now? Would that be?

Brian Smith 24:52
I don’t have it available right now.

Terri Daniel 24:53
I do it would take me a minute to find it though. So I’m okay. Well, if you want me to

Brian Smith 24:58
go ahead and look for that one. You’re talking while we’re while we’re, while you’re looking for that. But yeah, I think, you know, the, like I said, Terry, what I’ve appreciated about working with you over the years is just there’s so much written richness that we can bring to this, that I think people don’t really realize is even available. And that’s what, like the afterlife conference you’ve been doing it for is you’ve just, I know, we missed it last year. So is it the 11th one that’s coming up?

Terri Daniel 25:22
This would be in 2021. It would be our 11th one, which is just amazing. I can’t even believe that it. It’s been going this long. And boy, does that make me happy?

Brian Smith 25:33
Yeah, yeah. Well, there’s, I think there’s a real need for and you’ve got, you got a training coming up this weekend. So you got something coming up really soon?

Terri Daniel 25:41
Oh, yeah, I started, um, a couple of, I guess it was just a month ago. I’m online grief support group. So you know, people aren’t going to their groups and their therapists or anything anymore. So I’m now doing every other Sunday. Basically, just a support group, except we’re doing it on zoom. So I just finished one session of it, which was for four sessions, which is over. And now starting on this Sunday, November 8, we have four more and that one is themed to the holiday season. Okay, so that’s our holiday season one and people can find that on spirituality and grief.com. Okay. And here I found and, and we do an in this, we don’t just talk like people usually do in support groups, we actually do ceremonies, and I do have them build an altar as part of the process. And I actually found the videos. Brian, do you want? Do you want me to share them?

Brian Smith 26:43
Yeah, go ahead. Okay. Why don’t you share screen?

Terri Daniel 26:45
All right, hold on. Oops, hold one second.

Just a minute.

Okay, put this down here. And I will share my screen.


Brian Smith 27:01
there we go.

Terri Daniel 27:03
Okay, so the first one we’re going to look at is Brian Salter, which he made for a class that we taught together a couple years ago. Can everybody see that?

Brian Smith 27:12
Yeah, I could see it. So for anybody who’s listening to the podcast and not watching on YouTube, I’ll go I’ll explain as we go through, but go ahead and pull it

Terri Daniel 27:19
has your voice on it, too.

Brian Smith 27:20
Does the meditation alter where I sit every day and meditate and think about my daughter, Shayna, who passed away at this point three years ago, and also to bring peace to myself and kind of recenter and try to reach higher states. On my altar. I have a Jesus statue. I bought this at a little local shop thinking it was actually a Buddha. And thought was really cute Buddha. When I got at home, I looked it up and found that it’s jeiza, who’s a Japanese figure, who is a someone who watches over children who cross the other side to keep them safe when their parents aren’t there with them. Jesus is also revered by people who are spiritual seekers as he watches them on a spiritual journey. So that was a fortunate synchronicity that I bought that statue thinking it was actually a Buddha. This is a candle like the light candles when I meditate. This is the year as a compassionate Buddha. I saw the statue on a TV show, I had no idea what it was, but it just really called out to me so I googled it and found that this is actually Buddha, who is showing compassion for the for the cares of the world or for the sorrows in the world. So I found this statue on eBay. And I love it because it’s used and it’s actually kind of worn you can i can tell where it’s been handled. So I love that my capacitor Buddha statue is made out of wood. This is my Krishna statue that my older daughter bought for me because she knows I just love looking at God in different forms. I believe God has many different facets. So I like the look at different ways of it, of looking at God. This is the ganache that my same daughter bought for me when she was on a trip in New Orleans. This is a keepsake box that a friend of mine made for me shortly after Shayna passed. And in the box she placed for heart shaped rocks and gave me some other things that she had made for me. But she went to the beach and found these rocks and they represent myself my wife and my two daughters. Also in the box is a crystal that someone who became a friend of ours. Shana after she passed she came to him. He didn’t know us he didn’t know Shayna. But she came to him he reached out to a mutual friend and she contacted me and he told me that Shayna had contacted him and asked me to him to give me that crystal. Also when I find feathers and other keeps say things like put it in the box and keep them there. This is a pair of sandals glasses like to keep something Shane is close to me. When I’m doing a meditation. I feel like just nice having something physically close to me. This is an amethyst that I picked up when I was in Colorado for the properties of am with this plus I just like the way it looks and purple is my shape. My favorite color is also Shane’s favorite color. This is my incense burner This is my altar itself. I love it found us on Etsy. Actually, a guy makes it by hand. So I love my altar. This is something that my daughter gave me. So I pondered this when I’m sitting here, doing my meditations. And I’ve got some prayer beads that a friend of mine gave me which I use on occasion. So this is my sacred space. So they come to every day to do my meditations. And to, I guess, escape the cares of the world.

Terri Daniel 30:33
Yeah, yeah. That’s so that’s so wonderful. I’ve seen it so many times, and I never get tired of it.

Brian Smith 30:38
Yeah, it’s while looking at it now, because it’s been two years since I did that. And it’s changed a little bit, but I still sit there.

Terri Daniel 30:45
Wait, hold on. Where’s that coming from?

Brian Smith 30:51
All right, we’re back.

Terri Daniel 30:52
All right. Oh, I didn’t know that. You turned it off. Okay.

Brian Smith 30:55
All right. So let’s look at your altar.

Terri Daniel 30:57
Okay, you want to see my altar? Okay. I just hope we don’t get that thing again. Okay.

Because that happens on YouTube, doesn’t it? It just the,

Brian Smith 31:05
the autoplay starts

Terri Daniel 31:06
the next thing. Okay, so let me share my screen again. And now we’ll look at my altar reminds

Okay, share sound. Okay, here we go.

This is my grief healing altar. And starting on the far left, that you can see that little piece of paper that’s in the white frame. That is a page, a little torn page from the Bible that blew into my garden on the wind during the Santa Rosa fires, and it is Matthew nine on one side and Matthew 10. On the other side, which is a long story, I can send you a link to an article about it. It was a very powerful message from the divine little gold Patil here. That is my son’s ashes. And that’s a picture of my son. And there’s a little collection of healing stones that I use for chakra work and meditation. There are two candles, both of them have significance one was given to me by a important shamanism teacher of mine. And a little colorful one on the right was given to me by by son’s hospice nurse. And there’s my shaman rattle there in front of the candles. And this little beautiful white statue of an angel was actually made by my son in school when he was about six years old. He always kind of had a sense that he wasn’t going to be here long. So these are the things that are on my altar right now. They change periodically, depending on what I’m working on. But I think this is a good example of an altar that is very personal and very spiritual. having to do with my own personal, transformative experiences on my

Unknown Speaker 33:21
spiritual journey.

Brian Smith 33:25
Yeah, I think that i think that’s great. And I love your altar, and I love that everything has meaning and everything has a story. And it’s in there and that thing about altars when we’ve taught people before it’s like, it’s, it’s personal to you, whatever you want to put there, because sometimes people so what should I put on my altar? It’s like, whatever works for you, right?

Terri Daniel 33:42
Yeah, well, in my classes that I’m teaching now for the chaplaincy program, the people in these classes. They’re such an interesting group. I’ve got a Buddhist monk and a Jesuit monk, and a Catholic priest. I have a medical doctor, a funeral director, a couple other Buddhists, a Baptist pastor, I just have like such an interesting group of people. And so these are people who’ve done a lot of spiritual work. But they’ve never most of they’ve never really done altars like this. And so I assign this to them, you know, their assignment is to make an altar and send a video. And they do such an incredible job, they put so much into it. And what that says to me is that we need this, our souls are just starving for this. And I’ll tell you a very sad story. My sister and her husband just got a cute, sweetest little dog about three months ago, and she just got hit by a car and died the other day, and they’re just devastated. And it was really kind of horrible how it happened. And so the first thing I told my sister to do was make an altar in your house and in The way you do that with a pet is you take their bed, and all their toys, and their bowl and their color and all their stuff, and you put it in a corner of your house. And that becomes the place where you do your grieving, it takes your grief, which is so big, and it puts it in a smaller space in a container. And that’s what the altar does. So this little space, you know, she made this little space with all the dogs things and of course, her cats walk over there and lay down and go and sleep on it. Because the energy is there. And so when you’re just really suffering and you’re crying, and you’re just miserable, and you can’t get a breath, you just go and you sit in that space with that altar and just be with it. Yeah, just one little simple thing. They also have a lot of trauma around this dog getting hit by a car. So I told them and, and her husband was there, when it happened, she came a few minutes later, they eat and the husband has this image in his mind, of the dog breaking free of the leash and running into the street and bam getting hit. That’s the image, he has my sister’s image, if she comes running down the street, and her husband is sitting there at the curb, just crumpled up and sobbing, holding his dead dog. So each of them have a different visual imprint. And so I told them to each draw a picture of that imprint, that is keeping them awake at night that is driving them crazy, that visual that you can’t stop seeing, yeah, right, each drawing your own picture, don’t show it to each other, it’s each your own personal thing, and then go out in the backyard and dig a hole and bury it in the dirt together and give that image and that the intensity of that pain, you give it to the earth and let the earth hold it for you. Because the earth is so big and strong, and it can transform the paper will decompose and become nitrogen for the soil or whatever. And that way you get it out of your body into a representational form. And you put it into the world of Spirit through the earth. So those are the kinds of things that you know, none of that exists in, in our current culture, it’s all borrowed from somewhere.

Brian Smith 37:14
Yeah. And I think those things are very important and interesting, I love what you said that, you know, our grief is so big, and this way as a way of at least kind of making it into a manageable size. And I never really thought about that when I was putting my altar together. But you know, it does kind of feel that way. Right? That’s, that’s the place I go to. And you go there and you feel the feelings. That’s one of the really important things about grief tubes, you get to feel the feelings, there people to try to bypass it or ignore it, you got to get to process it. And it gives you a chance, a time of space to where I’m going to go process this for dinner for for a certain period of time, you know, and then and then when I get up, I can do other things, at least for a while.

Terri Daniel 37:54
That’s right, because you can control it. And you know, you feel no control you complete loss of control when you have a tragic loss. And so if you can create this little space and contain it in a container, then you can control when you’re going to really feel it. And when you’re not. And you’re like you know what, right now I’m really feeling it or right now I really want to feel it and you go over to your altar, you light a candle, you sit there, you talk to your loved one, maybe you write in a journal, you cry, you pray, sing a song, whatever. And then you’re done for the moment. And just like you said, you go back to work or whatever. And then when you feel the need to do that, again. You go there. I mean, that’s what churches and you know, places of worship are supposed to be for.

Brian Smith 38:38
Yeah. So

Terri Daniel 38:39
yeah, let’s make our own little church in the house.

Brian Smith 38:42
Yeah, that’s a really good point. Because I think a lot of people are kind of missing that even when we do go to churches become so generic, I don’t another word. It’s just not. For a lot of people. It just become so rote. There’s just there’s not much feeling to it. And it’s not really personal. So and the thing is, I guess what people know, you can do this in your own home and you can do it, you can do it every day. You don’t have to go somewhere else. You don’t have to go to a to a special designated, you know, holy place you can you can make a holy place in your own home.

Terri Daniel 39:12
Yeah, and do and do the proactive, very intentional work of interacting with the holy place. That’s why funerals are not helpful for most people because they’re rote, and they’re impersonal. You know, a lot of people who don’t have a church or a synagogue or a spiritual community. I’ve seen this happen with so many people. So somebody dies, and they don’t even know who do I call How do I have a funeral? And they’ll just call like, whatever religion they think they’re supposed to identify with. Because again, these are you know, unchurched people. Yeah. And they go, Well, you know, dad, dad was kind of Catholic. I guess he never went to church, but I’ll just call let me get the phone book out here and call the local Catholic Church and hire somebody to come to the funeral. That’s just Like terrible, but not many people. I mean, how many people listening know someone in your circle in your network that can organize and facilitate a funeral for you? Right? Probably not many. Right?

Brian Smith 40:13
Yeah, that’s a good point. Yeah, absolutely. So I know you have a Facebook group called Bad grief guidance. So what’s the What does that mean? And what’s an example of bad grief guidance.

Terri Daniel 40:24
So, um, so many people come to me, and YouTuber, and I’m sure you know, bereaved parents, who have gotten just the worst advice. And a lot of that advice comes from some of these groups that I don’t approve of it, these national groups with conferences and chapter meetings, and a lot of them have websites and Facebook groups. And these groups are led by peers, it’s peer LED, and the peers are other bereaved parents. But they are not, there’s no training required to become a chapter leader or a group leader, other than how to market your group, no requirement for any kind of education, or certification in grief, or trauma, or even group dynamics. And I have seen so many people be so broken by these groups, like you described, Brian, um, people have gone into these groups and seeing people who are been coming there for 10 or 15 years, who still say things like, I can’t get out of bed in the morning, I still can’t, except that my child died 15 years ago, and they’re still coming to these groups, and they should not be still coming. The idea of those groups is it’s not supposed to be your your life for the rest of your life. And, and people say to me, you know, I went to that first meeting of that group, and I saw that lady who’s been there for 15 years, and the first thing I thought was, I don’t want to be like her in 15 years. Is that the model that they’re showing me of where I’m going to be in 15 years, right, number one, that’s bad grief guidance right there. Having people like that, as a model, you should put them in a separate group, and not have them in the room with the new people coming in. Because you don’t want the new people to see that. Yeah. There is something online, anybody can find it. You can Google it, it says it’s 64 things I wish someone had told me about grief. And this was contributed by many people, and they made this list. And most of the things are pretty good. probably five or six of them are absolutely terrible things to tell a grieving person. One of them is holidays, birthdays and celebrations will be sad forever. Yeah, yeah. Another one that stands out is, no matter how much you think it’s gonna hurt. It will be a million times worse. Those are just the two that come into my mind. Mm hmm. Um, there are. Yeah, you know, you don’t say things like that to grieving people. You also don’t say things like God wanted another flower and his garden and all that crap. Yeah. But they’re so so I heard so many stories of people who really suffered behind these kinds of things, that I started this group on Facebook called Bad grief guidance. And people were joining up and telling me stories about the kind of stuff that they heard. And then people in religious families, of course, were hearing that God was punishing them. Or that, you know, their child who died, who was a drug addict or was gay or something, you know, is in hell. And all these and you know, the religious beliefs is a whole different category, right? of bad grief guidance. There’s also something and I don’t mind naming the names of these groups publicly, because I think people should know, there’s a group called grief share. I think it’s griefshare.org. And they, it’s a Christian group. And it’s they don’t really make that very obvious on their website, but there’s a tab on their website that’s called something like, why we grieve or how to heal from grief or something. And if you drill down in that website, it tells you the reason you suffer is because you’ve been disobedient to God. Hmm. And they actually say this to grieving people.

Brian Smith 44:21
Yeah. Yeah, there there is. And some of its most of its most of us, probably, well, meaning but you know, the other thing is, you and I were talking I know there’s this really common this five stages of grief, Oh, God, the people will come to me and say, well, which which stage am I and and what’s what’s my next stage? And so what what’s your reaction to the five stages of grief?

Terri Daniel 44:44
Well, it’s not just my reaction. It’s the reaction of the entire grief, support community and psychologists and academics everywhere, nobody uses that anymore. And what Elisabeth Kubler Ross did is she interviewed 200 patients in a hospital for her book, so it wasn’t actual research format. It was anecdotal just talking to people and getting their stories. And these were dying people. They weren’t grieving. They were dying. And she noticed that the five most common responses they tended to have were denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. And she put it in the book. I believe she did call it stages. But it’s not. It’s not official research. It’s, you know, it wasn’t done in proper research parameter. And so really, what she observed was that people were having these five reactions to facing their death. If you think of them as reactions or responses rather than stages, you can add another 500 to that list. Yes, exactly. Right. So like one response could be fear. That’s not on her list, guilt, remorse, perhaps joy and exhilaration, I’m finally going to die. I’m not going to be suffering from cancer anymore. There’s all these different kinds of responses. That’s how it should have been presented. But it caught on really big. And everyone latched on to it, because everyone likes to make lists. And it became really popular, and we all we know, now, there are no stages, there’s nothing sequential about it. You can go through the most tragic loss in the world, and never experienced denial, right, or bargaining. You know, anger is pretty common. Depression certainly is. So is acceptance. But you know, you could you could go through this, and not be depressed and sometimes not even be angry. So they don’t exist these stages. So what we have now is what we call tasks of grieving. And you can look that up. The researchers who develop that is Teresa Brando are a and do William Warden, who are de and these are the people who are formulating these new ideas now. And tasks are just about like, things you have to do to deal with your grief everyday, just like you have tasks, like you have to clean your house and put gas in your car, feed the dog. And the tasks are things like there’s one process called the six R’s letter R. And I’m not going to remember all six of them right now. But some of them are recognize the loss, which is you know, except that it has happened. And sometimes if someone dies, like in a war, or they’re estranged from the family or their missing person, you won’t see a body. And that’s hard. that complicates that task. If you don’t see a body because it’s hard to recognize the loss. Then there’s react to the separation, which is feel your feelings, scream and cry, do what you have to do. recollect, which is to sit with your family at Christmas and Thanksgiving, where there’s that empty chair where that person used to sit and talk about the person. Remember that Thanksgiving when she was seven years old, and she threw up on the table, or whatever, you know, bring them into the conversation. So many families will not talk about the dead person, especially if it’s a child. My own family would never talk about my son when we were together until I gave them permission to Yes, I had to teach them. I want to talk about him.

Brian Smith 48:35
Right, right. Yeah, a lot of times people will think why don’t want to bring it up because I don’t want to make her sad. You know, that’s, that’s another misconception, especially when it’s a parent is that a child? You know, pass? They think they’re gonna make us think about our kid. Like, we’re not already thinking

Terri Daniel 48:50
we’re not already thinking about them. Oh,

Brian Smith 48:53

Terri Daniel 48:54
Yeah. And it may and what is really happening in there is it makes them sad. Yes,

Brian Smith 48:59

Terri Daniel 48:59
It’s really about them. And so then they get sad, then we end up having to take care of them. Because they haven’t done the proper, you know, grieving tools. So it is really important. My mother came up with the most beautiful idea a couple of mother’s days ago. She called me up and she said, here’s what I’m getting. Because my mother always gave me presents on Mother’s Day. And she said, here’s what I’m going to give you for Mother’s day from now on. I’m going to call you up and we’re going to just talk about your son for 20 minutes now. Wow. Isn’t that the coolest thing? Yeah, yeah. So I’ve passed that on to other friends of mine. So on Mother’s Day now. Well, my mom has died now. But you know, I’ve got this like phone network going on of all these mothers calling each other up and saying, I’m just gonna let you talk about your child. Yeah, minutes.

Brian Smith 49:47
Yeah, that’s great. So another question want to ask you because you know, you and I have talked about toxic theology also. So religious beliefs do they help or hinder the grading process the healing process

Terri Daniel 50:00
Depends on the belief.

Right? Yeah, you know, and the language is so iffy. Because if you have a spiritual belief in reincarnation, or you believe in the survival of consciousness after death, is that a religious belief? You know, so then we have to get into defining what’s religion? Yeah,

Brian Smith 50:18
that’s a great point. Yeah.

Terri Daniel 50:20
Um, but you know, we believe that

some part of our essence, our consciousness lives on in another dimension. And that is extremely helpful. You know, and, and, and hopefully, we can talk a little bit about mediums in that context. Yes. However, if your religious belief says that all suicides go to hell, and your loved one died by suicide, then that is not going to be a helpful belief and in the middle of your grief and everything else you’re going through, you’re going to have to struggle with that horrible idea that your teenage son is burning in flames in hell, forever, we’ll never get out. And then when you die, and you go to heaven, you won’t ever get to see him again. Yeah. So though it’s so it totally depends on the belief, there’s been some really good studies on that, if anybody listening wants to email me, go to spirituality and grief.com. And you can email me through there. And I’ll just tell me, you want to see some of the studies and I’ll send them to you. There’s really a good one that’s used a lot now on positive and negative religious coping.

Brian Smith 51:32
Yeah. Yeah, I think you made an excellent point. You know, it does depend on the belief. And you also another great thing you said was, where do we separate? What’s original religious belief? And what’s metaphysical spiritual belief? So that leads me to another question, because I’ve had people ask me this. So if I want to work with you, do I have to believe what you believe? Do I have to believe in the continuation consciousness? Do I have to do I have to have any particular belief?

Terri Daniel 52:01
Absolutely not. I mean, the people who work with me like my sister and her husband with the dog who died, they don’t believe in anything. Mm hmm. You know, and but they The funny thing about belief is, the ceremonies and rituals have no religious belief attached to them at all. Hmm. And that’s what’s so nice about them. And so I have given these rituals, like draw the image of your trauma on a piece of paper and buried in the earth, or the string ceremony. Have we done the string ceremony? Brian? Yeah, yeah, yeah, the string sermon, there’s no religion to that at all. And so even the most devout religious person will respond to that. Because their soul just says, Oh, God, I need this. This feels good. And the string thing I’ll show you just for your audience, really? Yeah, please is. So you get a little piece of string like this. And just you just take your pain, and you roll up the string and a little ball, and you cry. And you say, I’m so angry that that car hit my dog that my son killed himself, blah, blah, blah, you just talking into them, I’m angry at God, I’ll never forgive the drunk driver. And you just tell it into the string. And you roll it in a little ball. So it has a little piece hanging off like that. You tie it up. And then you take it outside, and you tie it in a tree, and you let it unfurl. And it just hangs there in the tree forever. As it decomposes, it becomes like the Tibetan prayer flags that blow in the wind and the sun, and they shred and tatter. And all the prayers contained in them are released into the universe. So doing a little thing like this releases your pain. And if I’m showing that to a person who identifies as religious with a belief in quote, God, I’ll just use God language. And I’ll say, just put it in here and give it to God. Hmm. And then hanging in a tree and just give it to God. Yeah, one word changes everything.

Brian Smith 54:05
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So before we we started recording, we were talking about different types of grief. And we were talking about right now, it seems like everybody I’ve talked to is in some form of grief. So let’s talk about different types of grief.

Terri Daniel 54:20
And right now, everybody is November 2 2020. Yeah, the day before the election, just for reference, and no matter what side of the aisle you’re on, you’re probably freaking out. And we’re grieving. What Brian and I were talking about before was, there’s a tight there are many, many types of losses that we have. So we have relationship loss, when someone dies, we get divorce. You have material or financial loss. If you lose your job, or your house burns down, you’ve lost something material, stock market crashes, whatever. There’s a roll r o l e loss. If you were a caregiver and the person you were taking care of dies, you don’t have that role anymore. If you were a wife and your husband dies, you’re not a wife anymore. So there’s all these different kinds, I don’t want to go deeply into it right now. But what so many people in America and in the world really too, because of COVID are experiencing his system loss, were the systems that were supposed to take care of us in our assumptions that were supposed to be taken care of by said, systems, they’re failing. And that could be the medical establishment, you know, medical research, you know, the Center for Disease Control, they’re, they’re not doing what they’re supposed to do. They’re not combating COVID, the hospitals don’t have enough equipment, they’re not doing their job. So it appears to some people on the government, I don’t even want to get into touchy politics here. But I think no matter what side we’re on, the elections can’t be trusted. The news media can’t be trusted, everything is not secure. And that there is grief around that the systems are failing us. Yeah. religious belief is also a system. So there’s this massive collective grieving going on in America. And after the election, regardless of who wins, millions of people are going to be grieving. On one side or the other. Yeah, it doesn’t matter what side you are just the energy of grief, like a dark cloud over the country. And anger and separation and division. It’s it’s heavy, heavy stuff. What do we do with that? energy?

Brian Smith 56:44
Yeah, that that is an excellent question. And I think it’s an interesting observation. Because you and I’ve been talking, you know, people over the last several months, and everybody I talked to, as you said, on both sides are all they’re all freaked out right now, as we’re like, okay, in a couple days, or a week, or however long it takes us to get the results of selection, at least 30 40% of us are going to be in deep grief, you know, we’re gonna be feeling like we just lost the system, that the thing that we’ve we’ve relied on. So I, you know, as, as people that help people through this, we, you and I have to figure out, you know, what do we what do we tell people? How do we how did we deal with that,

Terri Daniel 57:22
I think having community grief ceremony says a really good idea, you know, like, maybe on your next podcast, maybe we could even do this together, make it a ceremony and have everybody do one of these strings, and just, you know, to, to express our broken hearts, or we can also do a string for positive affirmations, our prayers, for healing for the country, any kind and, you know, it’s another thing that we don’t have in this culture is community grieving. But we kind of do, you know, like, when there’s a mass shooting, all the people come out and they lay flowers. Yeah, little memorials. That’s a beautiful thing. And I’m really happy to see people in America doing that. So maybe we should come up with some way to do that. For the election. You know, or just for, you know, the loss of, of safety. Yeah, in our society. And the thing is, we were never really safe, that we never that sense of safety was always the loss of the illusion of safety.

Brian Smith 58:27
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But there’s so much. I mean, as you went through some of those different types of losses, I mean, you know, my wife lost her job, you know, we lost our loss or health insurance. You know, there’s everybody, people going through all this stuff, people losing their businesses, you know, small business owners are going out of business. So there’s, there’s a tremendous amount of loss and grief right now. And people have not really been trained to have a, how to deal with it. So I think, you know, taking courses like yours that you’ve got coming up this weekend, even if you haven’t maybe had a loss yet, or if you haven’t had a loss of a person, just understanding the whole idea of grief as it relates to everything, and any type of deep loss that impacts as, you know, at a deep level.

Terri Daniel 59:15
Yeah. And, you know, another kind of loss that we’re experiencing is we lost freedom and autonomy. Absolutely. We’re not free to move about the world, like we were, you know, I mean, you could drill down on the on that list of losses and just find so many things. Another thing that’s happening, too, is relationships are breaking up. Not just because of politics, certainly because of politics. There’s been rifts and families, but even COVID one of my longest best friends that I’ve had for 50 years who lives two doors down is not speaking to me anymore right now. Because he just got he’s like excessively extreme about COVID. He still washes the cereal boxes when he brings them home from the grocery store. Okay, I’m not quite Hit that level, really mad at me because he thought I was too loose. About COVID Oh, wow. And you know, there’s this big split in our relationship. I mean, people are just going crazy right now.

Brian Smith 1:00:12
Yeah. Well, that’s Yeah, that’s the other thing is there’s there’s a loss of family I, I know two people that emailed me just within a couple of weekends ago that we’re friends with their fathers on Facebook, that have unfriended their fathers on Facebook, because because of politics, and it’s like, I, I can’t talk to you on Facebook anymore. Because because we’re on different sides of this political thing. So it’s a time of a time of the world really, you know, as recognizing, you know, what’s going on and bright lines being drawn in. I like what you said also, though, about the illusion of safety, because we do have this presumption that the systems are going to take care of us, you and I, that our kids are going to outlive us. And then we realized that was never promised to us. And that could that can be a big loss,

Terri Daniel 1:00:57
nothing was ever promised to us. And you know, that’s another thing that in the Judeo Christian way of thinking, is, there’s this idea that if you’re a good person, and you’re faithful believer, yeah, there’s a promise of protection, and safety. But of course, we know from the book of Job, you know, we just know from life, that there’s no protection and safety, that’s just gonna happen to you no matter what. And that’s why the religion designed it so that the promise is after you die, yeah, the promises in the afterlife, so we can’t show it to you now and your life, you’re gonna you’re gonna have poverty and sickness and loss and all kinds of stuff in this life. But if you believe in this belief, you’ll get your reward after you die. And that’s just such a bad belief. Because it’s, it’s been twisted into thinking that piousness and faithfulness can protect you, even in this life. I once had a woman I was renting out a room in my house, and this woman came to interview as a potential roommate. And I asked her for references, and she said, Oh, I don’t need any references. I’m a Christian. Yeah,

Brian Smith 1:02:12

Terri Daniel 1:02:14
It’s like, Where do you get this idea, you know that you have something special, because your life is gonna fall apart, just like mine. And everybody else is so bad. If you go to the Buddhist way of looking at it. The idea starts out with Yes, of course, things are gonna fall apart. Mm hmm. And what we really do in our spiritual practice is learn how to go with the flow. Yeah, and how to be with the things because they are going to happen.

Brian Smith 1:02:38
Yeah, and that’s a really good point. And I like the way you put that about, you know, the promise, if there is a promise was for the afterlife. But people misinterpret that. And so many people come to me and say, What did I do wrong? or What did my son do wrong? Or why am I being punished? You know, I must have done, you know, something wrong, because otherwise wouldn’t have happened to me. And it’s such a hate to say it’s a juvenile point of view. But it really is, it’s about what’s what we’re taught in Sunday School, a lot of us that went up grew up in Sunday school, that if something bad happens, then surely you did something, to trigger it. And so that, that’s, you know, we talked about religion, good or bad, that’s an example. Or it can be very, very bad, because it really, people now they’re piling guilt on top of the grief, because you’re like, I must be responsible for this.

Terri Daniel 1:03:26
Yeah, and that is an infant tile way of looking at it. It’s exactly the way you learned it in Sunday school. And or interpreted it when you were five years old, in the mind of a five year old. And so most people get their theology at five years old. And then never think about it again, you just go through your life, and then you’re 35 and 45. And you still believe this? Because you’ve had no reason to change it. Yeah. until something shocks you into changing it, like losing a child, then you may start questioning that theology.

Brian Smith 1:04:00
Yeah, that’s, you know, that’s an interesting thing, too. Because there, there’s has to be something to knock us off that center, but we’re gonna, we’re gonna, we’re gonna, you know, it’s momentum, whatever you want to call it, we’re going to stay on something until it doesn’t work anymore. And that’s one thing about grief that a lot of times causes us to reevaluate, you know, reevaluate, reevaluate everything, right? We started saying, well, this isn’t working for me. And that’s when it can become a blessing. That’s when we can start to Well, that’s

Terri Daniel 1:04:31
because if you don’t reevaluate, then you’re stuck. And that’s how you get into complicated grief. So you reevaluate your relationships, your values, your spiritual beliefs, you know, you reevaluate your personal life, like why am I working at this job that I hate? Yeah, you know, I guess I don’t need to be here anymore. I don’t have this child to send to college. You know, maybe now I’m free to be an artist, you know, or something like that. But that’s kind of how it happened to me speaking of grief, to grow You know, I never would have thought that this is what I would do. But you know, before my son died, I was in a terrible, abusive marriage, I was obsessed with trying to keep that marriage together and suffering in that every day. I had no real power passions or interests in any sort of professional work, you know, I made it I was a writer, I made a living as a copywriter. I mean, my life was just kind of nothing. And now, it’s so full of meaning. And so that’s because I allowed things to shift. So what if people don’t allow things to shift? You’re going to see somebody who’s had a loss 10 years ago, and they’re going to be mad at God. Yeah, God was I had one client who told me this, two of his children died. And he said, when I became a parent, I only asked God for one thing to keep my children safe. And he didn’t do that. And I’m mad at God. And the answer to that is, you have to change what you think God is. Yeah. And if you’re not willing to do that, then you’re going to be mad, like he is not he’ll,

Brian Smith 1:06:14
yeah, that and you really have to start to change to change your perspective on the whole idea of death and dying and what it really is because if we get to we understand everybody that is born dies, every single person that is born dies, the only difference is how and when. So we get angry that God took our child that’s we’re really saying he took our child too early. we’re arguing with the timing, right? Yeah, they should have lived longer. And that’s that’s not for us to determine. And longer is not necessarily better. I mean, the more we start, when we really start to open up our minds and think about this thing here longer is not necessarily better.

Terri Daniel 1:06:53
Well, especially when you have a big view of what here is, yes, you’ve got like the 30,000 mile view from space, like what is here, earth, you know, this body is just like a stopover on this much bigger journey that goes on forever. This, if you believe that this isn’t all there is for our consciousness to experience, then you can see that bigger view and you’re not so attached to this. But if you think that this is it, you get this one life here in this city in this country with this family and this husband, and then the husband dies or something. I mean, that’s the end of the world. Yeah, because you think this is all there is. And again, this is kind of an Eastern versus a Western view. This is also something speaking of community grieving that is so interesting about climate change. And a lot of people don’t like me to say this. But the way people you know, people getting upset about climate change

is kind of just a form of that kind of attachment. It’s like, Hey, we’re here on the earth. We want it to behave the way we want it to behave. Climate change has always happened, the earth has heated and cooled and heated and cooled and, you know, planets blow up all the time. If you look at it from that big view. This is just a little rock floating around in the universe. And who are we to think that we have the control to keep it from dying? Hmm, we do have control about taking care of it, we can certainly treat it better. Yeah, you know, but in the bigger picture of things no matter what we do, sooner or later, it’s going to die. Because it’s the thing that was born to Yeah, that’s a good point. Yeah, we do we have this attachment, you know, and I go back to religion, because you know, I’ve talked a lot about religion over the years, I think about when I was a kid, I’m like, Okay, well, if we really believe that heaven is our home, and Heaven is so much better than Why are we sad when people go there?

Brian Smith 1:08:52
You know, it’s like, shouldn’t we be happy?

Terri Daniel 1:08:55
Have you ever asked that question of your, your pastor when you were a kid, or I’ve probably

Brian Smith 1:09:00
gotten all kinds of trouble in Sunday school? Because I would always ask, you know, those types of questions, you know, and and, yeah, it’s interesting how people are talking about near death experiences No, back to religion. Again, I was interviewing someone. And when people have near death experiences, a lot of time they get kicked out of the churches. They’re like, we don’t want you talking about that. I’m like, Oh, yeah, we’re supposed to believe in all that stuff.

Terri Daniel 1:09:23
Right? You’re supposed to believe in that. But your, your near death experience has to include Jesus and pearly gates. Yeah. And if it doesn’t, then you get kicked out of the church. One of my favorite Sunday school questions that somebody told me he asked when he was a kid, talking about the 10 commandments, thou shalt have no other gods before me. Mm hmm. The kid says, You mean there are other gods?

Brian Smith 1:09:46
Yeah, yeah. Let’s talk about that.

Yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s one of the questions I would have asked to Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, Terry, it’s, it’s really great catching up with you and I could talk about talking about this stuff. All day long, but what I want you to let people know where they can reach you find out more about you. I know you’ve got some some stuff coming up short term, you got the afterlife conference coming up again, hopefully next spring. So let’s talk. Let me let people know what’s going on in your life.

Terri Daniel 1:10:14
Well, the afterlife conference, we are planning to do it live in June, but it probably won’t happen that way. So it’ll be online. Again, we did it online in 2020. And it was great, and I loved it. And I’d like to do it that way every year if I could, but I’m contractually obliged to the hotel to do it there this year. I don’t know what’s going to happen there. But go to afterlife conference.com join the email list and you’ll get all that information. I’ve got this grief group starting on Saturday, go to spirituality and grief.com for that. And if you’re interested in professional development, I’ve got a thing coming up in January, called the conference on death and bereavement studies. There are seven CE credits for social workers, nurses, etc. That’s a day long online seminar and also a class coming up in a certificate program for spirituality and mental health. Lots of stuff. So go to spirituality in grief, calm and you’ll find everything there.

Brian Smith 1:11:19
Yeah, and I would recommend people to join Terry’s newsletter because you’re always sending out you know, information about and I get that through spirituality and angry calm right. Sign up.

Terri Daniel 1:11:29
Yeah, we’re afterlife conference.com any place you can subscribe and so it’s a newsletter that goes out once a month called the afterlife advocate.

Brian Smith 1:11:37
Yeah, yeah. Great, Terry. It’s good. It’s good. catching up with you again, looking forward to everything you got going on and hopefully work together soon.

Terri Daniel 1:11:46
Thank you, my dear. I love you to pieces.

Brian Smith 1:11:48
Alright. See you later. Bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Carolyn Clapper is among the best mediums in the world. I know many top notch mediums and when it comes to the level of detail, accuracy, and information no one could possibly know any way other than a psychic connection, I cannot think of anyone who surpasses Carolyn.

Carolyn has seen spirits since she was a little girl. But, her life changed forever when she was re-born after a Near Death Experience on 11/11/11 and returned to Earth miraculously healed from meningitis with a mission to serve Spirit.  She is a medical medium working with a team of doctors in Spirit, an evidential psychic Medium, and a psychic who helps with cases the police can’t solve.

I’ve known Carolyn for several years. How we met is included in the episode. You’ll have to listen to find out. I keep telling her one day soon I will tell her “I knew you when” because I just know she’s headed for international stardom. And, I’m one of the first to get to interview her.

You’re gonna love this one!

You can reach Carolyn at: www.thenextworldmedium.com



Brian Smith 0:01
Hey everybody, this is Brian back with another episode of grief to growth I’ve got with me today my friend, Carolyn clapper. And Carolyn is a world class meeting. And she’s I know, I know a lot of mediums and Carolyn is definitely one of the best, if not the best medium that I know. We’ve been friends for, I guess about three or four years, we met through Facebook, I’m not sure how exactly we met, I’m going to read a short introduction, and I’m going to have a conversation with Carolyn. But growing up Carolyn saw spirits and she had psychic experiences. But it wasn’t until our NDA with meningitis in 2011, this experience of transition into becoming a full blown medium, her abilities were magnified by hundred times or more and she got this boundless ability to connect to the spirit world. So Carolyn, I don’t I don’t want to read much more of your bio. I’m just gonna let you tell your story. So we’ll just go ahead and I want to say hi to Carolyn clapper.

Carolyn Clapper 0:53
Hi. Thank you for

having me on?

Well, connection.

Brian Smith 0:58
Yeah, hopefully we’re gonna be able to do this Carolyn. She messes up electronics. So it took us about half an hour to get connected with zoom, and then the phone call dropped. So we’re gonna, we’re gonna keep pressing forward and hope spirit will cooperate with us here.

Carolyn Clapper 1:16
It’s crazy. It’s just like, No, I’m just laughing. I can’t even it’s hard to take seriously after we’ve been playing around with with the computer for so long now. So hopefully, we’ll stay connected. But thank you for having me on. I really well, we we’ve been trying to do this for a while our schedules haven’t worked out, you know, but you know, things work out, I guess the way they’re supposed to. So we’ll see how it goes. But what I want to do is, I want to first of all tell me, like what your childhood was like? What was like experiencing? What you did? And then what happened on 11 1111.

Okay, well, how long do you have if you want me to go over my childhood? And are you like, are you a psychologist? Because this could be very helpful.

Brian Smith 2:01
to frame the question better, how was your experience?

Carolyn Clapper 2:07
So I’ve always, I’ve always seen spirit since I can remember. It was just a matter of so I had a very weird chap. I don’t know if anybody has had a normal childhood. Honestly, I’ve spoken to so many people, but mine was weird, equally as weird as the weirdest childhood that you’ve ever heard of, probably. So I grew up, I was born in the home that I was raised in. For the first 17 years of my life. I was born upstairs in my mom’s bedroom. And there’s relevance to that, to that, I think, okay, so I was born in the house. And it was a very active house. There was so much weird activity in that house since I can remember. And everyone in the house would experience that you know, from a light bulbs like blowing out and then being replaced by old lightbulbs, like with a different wattage, but they would have, you know, thick coats of dust and debris on them. So it was like, obviously, with no fingerprints. So, nobody, it couldn’t have been trickery of like one of the kids or whatever, you know, they mean, we Yeah, we’d have had this like weird activity that people probably be like, yeah, that’s poltergeists type stuff. But really, it wasn’t scary, because it wasn’t kind of alarming. But it wasn’t like threatening, you know. So my sister’s there was three of us and my sisters experienced some things and my mom would always, you know, she was a single parent raising us and she would always kind of like, downplay it, like, Oh, it’s fine. You know, like, because we’d be scared, really? Oh, yeah, Monica. So this house that we grew up in, had a lot of activity. And when I was about eight years old, I started seeing who was behind the activity, which is unique to everybody else in the house, like everyone would experience things the cats would chase like invisible mice. And it was just kind of a joke. Like, we’d make fun of it. And it was like joke around about it. You know, toys would go off on their own cells would turn their heads. Yes, really creepy stuff for kids. But anyways, we’re a little bit freaked out, but we would just like chalk it up to okay. You know, spirits exist everywhere and they’re not going to harm off. Our mom told us that they were fine that they love us if they didn’t love us that they would hurt us. I guess that we’re loved. Okay. And when I was eight years old, I was sleeping in my mom’s bed. I was kind of a scaredy cats. I had run in to my mom’s room when I felt something weird. And I would jump in bed with her and one night I woke up and I looked at him in the house. When there was a little girl standing there just staring back at me. And I’m like, I froze. And I, it was kind of scary, because it was unexpected. And I was looking at her and she looked at me and she looked equally as the prize to see me looking back at her. As I was, it was like, we’re both having the same response, which was really weird. And she was dressed in these old timey clothes were probably around the same age. Anyway, she looked at me and saw me looking back at her turned around and rushed back the other way down the hallway. Right. And so I tried to scream, and I couldn’t. So that was scary. I felt like I was screaming, like for my mom to wake up and nothing came out.

So this is kind of the story of never told anybody.

It’s just interest. I mean, never told anyone in an interview, I should say. But I would tell my friends is, you know, all these stories. When I was a kid, I always had the best ghost stories because they were real. They were happening. And everybody would like try and tap mine. And it just was never happening. So this little girl existed in my home, but I couldn’t communicate with her I could, I was just actually afraid. I was really scared. I think I slept downstairs underneath the table for like three days following that event. And then there was another event when I was, I don’t know, 15 or 16, I got really sick. And I had like, I think I had mana was the time I was the whole sex. And I I kept wanting a glass of water. And I was so dehydrated. And I I just I kept wanting to get up and I was envisioning it, but I couldn’t. I couldn’t get out of bed. And I was kind of half in and out of consciousness because I was so sick. I kept passing out like falling asleep and then waking up and falling asleep. And I saw three women standing in my room and they looked like school teachers. They had their pair up in bonds, and they were like, dressed in these old timey clothes again, and you know, I’m like they were talking. And I’m like, shut up. I was laying there going, can you please stop talking? I’m sick. Like, this is so rude. Like you’re in my room. And you’re talking and I’m trying to get some sleep and I’m really sick. And they looked at me and then just kept talking. I couldn’t understand them. Yeah. And then that’s all I remember from that. That’s all I remember from that time. But there are events like this growing up, right where I, I guess that time I said it out loud to them. But I didn’t get anything back. You know what I mean? Anyways, Pan forward years later, I moved from that house, you know, to a different city. And I ended up coming back to that home later when I was in my mid 20s. And I rented the home with my then husband, okay. And events started happening again. So activity just started up again, like full blown, like, lights would turn on on their own. We actually had so much activity, that we would make it a game like we would come home and we’d we’d guess like we I don’t know, like, we’d make it a game whether or not the basement light would be turned on when we got home. And whoever won like one, whatever. You know what I mean? It was like really stupid. And it was frequently on and it was a real hard life to switch on. So it wasn’t something it’s one of them once you get a jam off, you know, the house was built in the 1800s. It was old. It was kind of creepy in the basement. You don’t want to go down there.

Brian Smith 8:42
So it’s like an episode anyway, the haunting of Blair Bly house or something.

Carolyn Clapper 8:46
I mean, for real, this house is like wicked, active, it’s even gotten worse. Now. I like I’ve talked to the woman who owns it now. And it’s just, it’s like, pretty awful. Sorry. I’m like, going crazy. Had to straighten up my leg. Anyways, so long story shorter. I grew up in this house, I was able to see things. Went back to the house. I never had any confirmation of it until I was back there as an adult in my 20s. I started watching over a woman that lived two doors down from that house my entire life. And I became her emergency contact person, right. And so we would go you know, she’d call me for everything. Like her friend. She’d washed her fridge and she had to get it back together. She couldn’t. So I go over there, right. And she was a real interesting woman and we get to talking. And one day we got to talking about the haunted houses and in the Racine area, right where I grew up. And I tell her my stories and she confirmed she knew every person that I saw. She’s like the women that you saw those were the daughters of the man that built the house. And you’re describing them verbatim. She’s a very elderly woman and so she knew the entire history and the people who lived there. So that was my question. Israel, conformation, which felt really, really good and kind of freaked me out at the same time. Yeah. I moved from that house and activity stopped for me. There was nothing I actually missed it. I thought, you know, it was so quiet when I moved into a new home, I just there was nothing there.

Brian Smith 10:17
So the activity, you when you were growing up was always connected to the house.

Carolyn Clapper 10:22
Always. Okay. Well, with the exception of like, two times, but I’ll skip that for now cuz I’m gonna be long winded. But yeah, pretty much always it was connected to that home. Which I thought wasn’t that weird because I was born in the home. So if there was spirits there, you would think, well, maybe they have, like a connection to me. Because I arrived in that home, you know, and they were there. Okay, so that’s my connection to my childhood home. Moving forward, there’s a gap of time where I didn’t see anything for like 10 years, maybe not, not quite, but you know, just under 10 years. And then I came down with meningitis in 2011. And that’s where everything took a turn for me. But I was living in, you know, about 45 minutes from where I used to live. I was living in wauwatosa. And I was going through a divorce at the time, so it was just me and my son there. And he was very young. He was like six years old. And I had gotten frequent migraines, and somebody who’s had migraines for since I can remember the crippling and I thought I was just having a migraine. I took my image tracks, and I laid down and I thought, you know, the foot clear up the foot bear up. But it didn’t. And I didn’t get back up again. I laid in my bed and I was in and out of consciousness. I don’t know how long I was in and out of consciousness for my son was running around, and he would come like it would be light out. And then it was dark. He’d come into my bedroom, and he’d have little presence for me like little gifts, like cars. He’d take like lollipops and try to take my temperature and I was I was really sick. I think my temp hit like over, you know, 103 The last time I checked it. And oddly, this kind of saved my life. But I had taken a picture of my temperature at one point, and I posted it on Facebook, I have no idea why, of course, like everybody posts everything on Facebook. I’m like, look at my template. It’s crazy high. You know, like, I don’t know why I do that. And a girlfriend of mine, whom I haven’t spoke to in years, reached out to me over the phone by text and she’s like, are you okay? Well, I couldn’t speak at this point. I don’t know why. At this point. I didn’t know why I couldn’t get a word out. But I couldn’t speak and I could text but I wrote help. And she texted me back and she’s like, I’ll be right there. And then she fell asleep. Like, almost. So then an hour later, she texted me again. And I wake up to my phone. And I can’t move like I just felt like fused. I couldn’t move. I couldn’t speak I tried to speak to my son and I couldn’t get a word out. And I texted her again, help. And I passed out again. When I was in this state, it was like it was just such a strange state that I was in. I was so sick. I was so so sick that I kind of lost track of time lost track of reality. And I didn’t know what was wrong with me. And I started seeing my mom who has crossed over she had just crossed over like a year prior two years prior, excuse me. And she shows up next to my bed, right? And I can center and I can feel her and I can see her in my mind’s eye. And she starts playing this memory back in my head as I said she was a single mom as we’re growing up. So she would have to go to work and we’d get left home sick. Like if we were sick. We just you know, get some popsicles get better, you know, why start hearing her say, in my head, I start seeing this, this this scene play out from when I was about, you know, seven, eight years old and I was sick at home. And she’s looking at me and she’s saying Carolyn,

set up and touch your chin to your neck. And so I’m just seeing this replay in my head over and over. She used to do this. We had a sore throat when we were little. She would do the chin check. So she’d have a sit up and tuck church into her neck. And every time we did we didn’t know what she was doing. But she tells us to do it and then she’d kiss us and she’d be like, okay, you’re fine. And she’d go to work. And she would call me if you need anything, okay. And we never ever, I never knew in my whole life why she did this. I’d forgotten all about it. So she’s playing this like memory through my head, three, four times in my head. It’s over and over. And over. And finally I hear her voice Claire’s day and she says, Carolyn, sit up and touch your chin, your neck. And registered. I’m like, okay, so I sit up, right? And I try it. And I couldn’t. It went like maybe this far, and I started projectile vomiting, which is just disgusting. But, but I couldn’t my neck was fused, you know, and I couldn’t. And then my girlfriend shows up, and my son Lester, and I tried talking to her. And she says, I can’t understand a word you’re saying was coming out, like alphabet soup, couldn’t understand a word I was saying. I pass out. And eight hours later, I wake up in the ER, like, I can’t remember anything like from then until the ER. And I can hear the doctors speaking to my axes picking my son up. And they’re like, they’re like, Look, we don’t know what’s happening here. We can’t get her temperature under control. I can hear them right. And I try to speak. And every time I try to speak and bam, I’m dry, heaving. And finally I get one word out. And it’s because my mom told me she was meningitis. And I said meningitis, and thank God, there was a nurse there who listened. She came up to me and she goes, What did you just say? And she got real close. I said at one more time. And she’s like, we didn’t even think about that, you know. So she ran and got the doctor and they kept my spine. You know, they they put me in isolation, because they thought that I could have something with mersa or something. But the meningitis test came back positive side, two strains of meningitis. And I had the bacterial meningitis. And they weren’t sure if I had viral also. And it was just crazy. It was a crazy week.

I feel like I’m just talking and talking sorry. So

I’m laying in the hospital bed, right. And it was just mishap after mishap when I was at the hospital and bless their hearts. Like they were trying so hard. They were helping me and they were giving me antibiotics, mega intravenous antibiotics, and I had a heart suntan and oh, my God, my heart bent I, I ended up telling them like my heart stent was in wrong and they’re like, well, how would you know, and I’m like, I just know, you know. And there’s a few times where I, like my heart would stop because they put the heart stents in too far. And they had to give me an ultrasound pullback. I just I was teetering on death’s door for for the entire time, my heartbeat was down to like 30 beats a minute, 31 beats a minute, it was constantly going off the alarm in the hallway. And the only time that my heart would raise is when my son would come. And they’d let him lay next to me. And then my heart rate would go up by double, I would go up to like 61 beats a minute. So the power of love is just incredible. Yeah, it’s incredible with your children, I’m telling you like, and you know, you know, better than anybody how incredibly connected we are to our children, like their spirit, their energy, it’s just like them being biased. Just it’s just, it’s, it’s just pure love. And that’s, so I’m going to credit my sling, I really think that he saved my life and a lot of ways. But when I was in and out of consciousness, and kind of in between two worlds when I had meningitis, I started to see myself out of body. So it’s like I was laying in the hospital bed yet, I was seeing myself standing up in front of me and seeing my own but like a hospital gown, right. So I’m like seeing my own app. And it wasn’t very pretty. It was really disappointing. But as I’m standing there, I’m seeing myself from behind, you know what I mean? And then I would all of a sudden go into that body. Right? And I’d be seeing from my eyes but in a different space. And I was welcomed by a committee is the best way I can describe it to there was a committee of people there about 30 people all dressed in white. They didn’t have wings, or halos or anything. They looked like I don’t know, they look like they were, I don’t know, they looked like they were like linen clothing or something like some. It was very just clean and tark almost have a comb, you know. And there was one woman who whom I was very focused on and she was the center person and she was the speaker. She had the silver hair and it was short and she was just, you know, she was speaking there. She was like looking at me and they were talking and I couldn’t understand what they were saying. And then she left We speak. And I asked her, if they would please let me stay for my son. You know, I was all but he really had to stay here and in this life because I wanted to stay longer, and I wasn’t like emotional or anything, it was just a matter of fact. And yeah, and she just she left next year, and she spoke to somebody looked back at me and spoke without her mouth, just like, through her mind, okay, like telepathy at me? And she said, yes, if you do this work for us. And I said, Yes. Just a matter of fact, I’m like it. Okay. I didn’t even know she was talking about like, yes, I’m signing me up. If I can stay for my son, sign me up. Okay. Whatever you want me to do. And they all went together into the glowing white light. They just all like lost their form and went together. And they’re like, this orb like light and went through my feet. up to your my core is through my head. And I was completely healed on 11 1111. I was 100% healed and discharged from Frater hospital, and I have the records. I’m writing a book right now. Because I kind of I’m like, so evidential base that it’s like, I’m like, Here, I’ll put it all out there for everybody. So they don’t question me. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. You know, because you know how people are. So

I was released on this day.

And I really didn’t, it was like,

it didn’t register what happened to me until later, you know what I mean? Because I was like, in it, and I was going through it. So it just doesn’t register doesn’t think until later, but like, when the doctors came in, and they were like, you know, how are you speaking twisted the lights on and the neurologists and stuff was there and he was like, look at my light, you know, and follow my light and, you know, repeat after me and what day is that? And you know, all of this stuff, and they’re speaking to me and I am completely clear. You know, the neurologist was like, your anomaly like I He’s like, okay, he goes, I heard that your mom saved your life. He came in, you know, cuz he’s sitting here with me. And he goes, I heard your mom saved your life that she told you that you had meningitis. I want to thank her. So you adults, where is she? Well, the nurses because they knew because I said my mom, they’re like, how did you know you had meningitis? And I was like, Well, my mom told me that right? And I was like, in and out, you know, but I’m like my mom told me. Yeah. And he’s like, put ahead and told him the whole story. Because he you know, so. So he he sits down, he’s like, Where’s your mom? I want to thank her. Like, she’s so smart. You know, like, how does she know this? Right? And I just slipped to them. And I’m like, go ahead. Fake these, like, his like, What do you mean? And he looks at me all, you know, what do you mean by that? said, Well, I’m sure she’s in here. I said she’s crossed over. And that just kind of, he’s like, you know, he goes, Okay. Yeah, he goes, you know, we, that’s, it’s like, it’s like he understood, you know, he was a doctor. And he’s like, well, we get this kind of stuff sometimes, you know, yeah, we’ve seen it all. We’ve heard it all, you know, and he’s like that. It’s incredible. You know?

Brian Smith 23:39
No, so at this point, you’re, you’re healed. And so what? When did you start? When did your mediumship open up? What was the first evidence we mediumship started open up after that.

Carolyn Clapper 23:49
So so in the hospital, you know, after I had started to get better, you know, I was getting a little better before they went to me. So I was having, you know, I was able to speak a little more I was on drugs that helped the pain and things like that, okay. And at that point, when I was crossing in and out, I saw people, family members and loved ones in the battle, like so. Like, nurses that were working on me and like, friends that I actually people that were strangers to me that were like checking in on me, friends of friends that were calling the hospital being supportive, which was so sweet of them. I’d be like, Oh, I got your mom and dad here. And like, I didn’t know them, you know, and, and then they’d be crying and like, Oh my god, well, how would you know this and I’m loud and all they’re like, standing right in front of me. They’re chillin with my mom and dad, like, they’re got a glass of wine and they’re telling me what’s up in your life, you know? And I thought that was completely normal when I was in the hospital because I thought, well, I’m dying. Whatever, like I’m dying. So like, everybody sees people. People who are crossed over when they’re dying like, I’m not that special. There’s nothing like this is just the thing, right? I didn’t think anything of it I’m, I’m real fluid and free flowing, and nothing really jogs me that much. So even then I was like, Well, whatever, it’s there here. You know what? to expect it and deal with it. You know what I mean? It’s fine. Yeah. Like, I’m going to be with you a little homies over there pretty soon. And we’re going to be picking it together. And you know, I didn’t know I’d survive, you know, yeah. But moving forward, I had gone home Following this, and I had to continue IV antibiotics for about a week. And I finally got to take a bath. I was so happy you guys. Like it was like, I was so gross. At that point. It was really nasty. Anyway, so I finally got to take a bath. And so I went in to take my bath. And it was like the best feeling ever, right? And I draw my bath. And I’m sitting in there, and I’ve got my phone next to me. Don’t ask me. I don’t know why. Then my phone sitting on the floor, and my phone rings. And like, this is the first bath I’ve had in like, two over two weeks. Like it’s so girl, you know, like, yeah. So you’d think that I wouldn’t answer my phone, but I did. And it was a girl from whom I haven’t talked to, again, another friend that I hadn’t heard from in years. And I pick up the phone, and she was in distress, like she was in a really bad place. And I’m in the tub in a really good place. You know, this is so relaxing. And I didn’t really want to get into a heavy conversation with her to be honest. But I’ve helped her before. She’s somebody who’s like, you know, tried to take her life before and I had kind of saved saved her life a couple of times. And so I didn’t want to hang up, because she’s somebody who does, you know who I need to answer the phone to. If she calls me, do you know what I mean? I know that probably something’s wrong. So I answered the phone. And I was trying to keep it a little light, you know. And all of a sudden, it was so weird, Brian, like it was so weird. So all of a sudden, I get like this tunnel vision, right? It was so weird. Like, all of a sudden, I felt like I wasn’t in my own space. I got this tunnel vision. And I see where she’s sitting. I’ve never been in this house of hers. Because I haven’t seen her near she’s like, moved. And I’m sitting like, I can see her sitting on her couch. And she has a pink hat and a sex free pink hat and she’s smelling it and putting it up to her face. And I see her grandma, whom I’ve never met, and their grandma’s like telling me I died of cancer. And she’s spelling my hand. That was the hat that I wore right before it like when I died. That was my hat. And you know, and she’s really sad. And she’s this time, you know, she’s really grieving. And she needs to hear from me. And I don’t even know, I don’t think I registered what was happening. I just

I went with it. As I said, I’m real, free flowing. So I just it just happened, you know? And I’m like, I tell my friend, I say, you know, I’m explaining to her Hey, honey, are you it? I see sitting on your couch. I don’t even know how this like wasn’t a weird conversation. But it just wasn’t I started telling her about where she was sitting. And I said, you know, do you have a pink cat that was from your grandma, and it keeps smelling of it. And you’re really missing her? Did she pass up cancer recently? And she just starts bawling. And she’s like, Oh, my kind of cool. I’m having a hard time. And that’s exactly how do you know this? And I’m like, I don’t know. I don’t know. I can just see it. And then I’m like, Look, I have your grandma here. I’m like, she’s telling me about a little figure in your in the room that you’re in that keeps moving. Like it keeps moving and shifting and freaking you out. I’m like, that’s her moving it, you know. And she started telling me like, very specific details about her life like conversations that she was having in the mirror to herself. A box that was put aside the head, her daughter’s things in it, she had her go to the box and open it and take out certain items. And all of them were accurate. They were there. It was a very long conversation. It was about an hour and a half. And I’m sitting in my tub, right. I’m like, I felt fine. I was like okay, this is good. It’s all good. And then I asked her grandma, did you want to stay with her? I’m going to get off the phone. Do you want to stay with her you leaving? And she said I’ll stay with her. And I told her do your grandma’s gonna stay with you but I’m going to go I’m in the bath. And she felt comfort with that she just felt so comfortable. Oh my God, thank you so much. I can’t, you know, it was all this like she was just brought her a lot of peace. And so, so I bounce off the phone with her right. And I had felt good up to this point. I felt fine, totally relaxed. I had like brand new energy. You know what I mean? And I’m like, I’m real calm. Until I realized I was back in my body. And I was freezing. I was like my bathwater gone cold. I’ve got goosebumps and freezing and I’m like, What in the hell just happened? and it scared. It scared me. It was so I don’t like I think some people would like that. But for me that for ripped me out. I was like, What in the hell happened to me? And I didn’t like it. Like I felt invasive. Like it just felt not good. I don’t know how to describe it. I got out and I was like, I had like a talking to God, if you will, you know, I kind of said like, what is happening to me? Like, what? What’s happening? Yeah, and I got an I got an answer. You don’t want to get an answer when you add, really want to get in it? So I got an answer. And it actually came in the form of the woman in the committee of the speaker. So I got an answer. And she took me back to what happened in the hospital and how they killed me and how I agreed. And it just put a comma, romantic, okay. All right, fine. If that’s what it is. It was like it just completely commoner. Yeah, so that’s, that’s the first like evidential type reading that I did. And then that just opened up a whole chain of events, that’s like, it would take way too long for an interview, but I’m gonna be putting it in my book, I think it’s really important and special stuff. It was like, the signs began to just flow through for me, I generally don’t see for myself the same as I see for other people. So my mom coming to me, in that type of situation was extremely unique. That was a rare occasion. When it’s really, really important. I think that we see that we’re capable of seeing our people like in the same way, but if it’s not excruciating, Lee important, then maybe we’re like, blocked from that for good reasons. So that we can still have this experience.

Yeah, well, so moving forward, I did go and get checked by like, every doctor that I knew, I’m like, Okay, time to see a psychologist, time to see a psychiatrist. Time to go get my brain scan. Well, even though everything had been confirmed over the phone, by my friend, I still thought you know, I had meningitis. Your brain is swollen, you know, when you have that your spinal cord. And they thought, Okay, it’s time to, to get checked, and see if anything’s wrong. And I got a clean bill of health from everybody. In fact, every time I sat with a doctor, their loved ones would come through and tell me things that I would never have known. I’m like, Oh, my God, this is incredible. I mean, like, you know, some of them would start talking to them, like my, my doctor from the Middle East to my love very, very dearly. He’s like, Well, what do you see for me? You know what I’m like, Don’t ask. He and then I went ahead, and I told him what I find. And, and he knew it was his dad, his dad, you know, and he went through a funeral that people haven’t had, and so on and so forth. So, yeah,

Brian Smith 33:46
yeah. Why I know, you know, you and I met on Facebook. As I said, it’s been several years ago, I’m guessing three or four at this point. It was after after saying that passed. You and I became friends. And you volunteered to do a reading for me it was it was very kind of you. So you did a reading for me, but you wouldn’t let me record it. And I really wish you had because it was it was

Unknown Speaker 34:07
now I’m sorry.

Carolyn Clapper 34:09
I wish that I had let you too.

Brian Smith 34:10
Yeah, it’s I’ve had some I’ve had incredible readings by some of the literally the best mediums in the world, but you are just like me. So when people you know, when you say you know, you’re telling these stories, and they sound, the sound while they mean it’s like if you really liked it. You use stuff that like nobody could possibly have looked at you told me things that my wife thought at the hospital the day my daughter passed away, that my wife had never told anybody including me. So I’m taking notes and I’m telling them when she gets home, but she was away at the time. And I tell her this and she goes yeah, I had that Father hospital, but I’ve never told anybody. You told me something that happened my wife the day before some cake that she didn’t. Um, and then spontaneous cake. Yeah, the rainbow cake. Exactly.

Carolyn Clapper 34:58
I remember that. So

Brian Smith 35:00
And I was, I had a friend whose wife had passed away literally, like the week before. So and the reading was like, and it was like two hours long. And I’m just taking notes, you tell me things that are insane, his bedroom, and all this stuff. And I said, well, by the way, I have a friend, his wife passed away like a week ago. Can you tell me anything about that? And you’re like, you knew how they met that meta camp. You know, when they were young, you knew that she’d had the hip surgery she’d had or knee surgery. I can’t remember which it was. Like, like, five minutes, you told me on the stuff. And I called my friend up, I’m like, Is any of this true? Because I have no idea. I didn’t really even know his wife. And it was like spam. So I tell people, I tell you that because your most mediums I’m going to guess are like 60 maybe 70% accurate, a good medium, and you’re like, 500% accurate.

Carolyn Clapper 35:52
That’s what I that’s what I keep hearing and then my friend Bob is like, Don’t ever say you’re 100% accurate, because one time of you slipping up and somebody is gonna, like nail you to the cross. So I am like, I don’t claim that but I’m accurate because it’s not me. Not me. It’s like the credit doesn’t belong to me. It’s not. It takes a lot of energy. And it takes a lot of love. Like I love everyone I sit with. I love everybody like to a fault. Like it’s gross. Like I feel their pain and it’s like really? A you know, I have to pull myself back from them. So that’s actually a problem. For me. I don’t think that it’s a good thing as a medium. Are you there?

Brian Smith 36:40
I’m here your videos frozen, but I can still hear your audio.

Carolyn Clapper 36:44
Okay, so my my video froze. Yeah.

Brian Smith 36:48
it’ll, it’ll come back probably.

Carolyn Clapper 36:51
Let me look at connection of time. Now, let’s say, oh, verify blah, blah, blah.

Unknown Speaker 36:58

Brian Smith 37:01
Yep, we’re back. Good. We’re back.

Carolyn Clapper 37:03
Okay, Carolyn’s breaking all the time. I’m breaking the computers again. Okay, so

Brian Smith 37:10
what I was going to say, you know, Carolyn, because you’re, you know, it’s interesting. I interviewed Suzanne Geisemann last week. And I was telling us before we started and Suzanne is amazing, amazing medium, but she’s meeting by training. She after a stepdaughter pass. She started meditating. And she developed her her talent. I’m not gonna say it’s a gift. She developed her talent. And she’s she trains and all this stuff and, and a lot of names that do that. And I there’s some things that I call natural like you and like Thomas, john were just seems to be like, it just flows through you. And

Carolyn Clapper 37:44
can I just say thank you to Thomas, john, because I think he kicked some people over for medical readings for me, so thanks, Tom. Yeah, yeah, Thomas.

Brian Smith 37:53
Yeah. Okay. So yeah, I think it’s, you know, it’s really interesting to me, because people say I want to learn to cut to my son or my daughter or whatever. And so some of us can train to do this. But for you, it seems to be spontaneous and natural. But it does. Does it take a physical toll on you when you do readings, because I know you don’t do a lot of readings, I think it is a drain you.

Carolyn Clapper 38:15
Oh my god. It’s like that is putting it lately, like, people will ask me, you know, you know, like, do you do mentorships or whatever, or, you know, so many people are interested in going into this field, which I think is incredibly cool. I love how open people are becoming and, you know, it’s obviously it’s good to know that more people are open to it now. But as far as actually doing it, I’m always like, man, tread carefully because it don’t ask for what you don’t want. I even tell people that with readings with me, I’m like, Don’t ask me if you don’t want to hear. And I mean that wholeheartedly. It is so draining. And some people don’t understand that. I think that’s the one thing that’s really tough for me as the medium is that like most of the time, I’ve been super blessed because I’m like, I’m all word of mouth. So all the people come to me I feel like have been brought to me by their loved ones or spirit, you know, and it’s meant to be but once in a while, get somebody who’s a little bit like I don’t know, like a little bit less understanding or less empathetic to my position. I am somebody who has chronic migraines like I had that prior to this. I could have gone on disability like I took 18 imitrex a month before and that’s that’s way too many like I was having.

I don’t know what they call it.

I was having headaches because of my medicines. It was like rebound headaches there. Yeah. And that’s why I couldn’t tell if a meningitis whether it was migraine or meningitis, like that’s how bad They get some times for me. So that being said, That being said, I think it’s very common for people who are naturally gifted to get migraines. I know that’s a commonality that people who are empaths, even empathetic people or just in touch with other things, not even mediums. Like they tend to get headaches, you know, even from the planet like, like, from the pressure outside, you know, from the barometric pressure, whatever, like, we’re very sensitive to everything. So when I give readings, yes, it can become very draining. It’s a matter of learning how to separate yourself. And this difficult in the beginning. I had to learn to have empathy, which is weird, because I’m a very sensitive person, like I watched, and I’ll be crying. I’m like, my son laughed at me. It’s like, Oh, my God, you’re crying. It’s like a Disney movie. And I’m like, Ooh, I’m like, supino. And but it’s like, when I would go into this mode, with random run and readings at my job before, okay, it was complete strangers, I, I don’t know them, I didn’t really have you know, and like, whatever. I didn’t really have like, an emotional connection to them. And, you know, Spirit would come to me really pushy. And I had no boundaries. And I would just, like, there’s somebody here, do you want to hear Casey stuff? Do you want to hear from them? And they, it was always a solid? Yes. Everybody always said yes. And I would take on the emotions of that person, sometimes, like I would get the symptoms like, like if they died of I remember one in the beginning, like he died of liver issues from being an alcoholic, and I felt like I was gonna throw up, I had to go to the bathroom. I was like, Oh, my God, I’m gonna pick them up. And then I just got like, I felt like I was having symptoms of liver failure. It’s really creepy. So I had a really hard time to like, disassociate, like to set boundaries for myself, right? I’m way better at that. Now, way better. But it has taken me years to get good at that. And it was all self work. It wasn’t me opening a book or taking a class online or going to a school. It was me talking to God, it was me talking to source, you know what I’m saying? It was me going straight to source and saying, What can I do? What do I need to do? And it’s interesting, because I started developing, I’d get answers Not, not through my ears, I would get answers in my mind. And I would do them ritualistic type things. I would do them. And they helped. Later to find out once I started connecting more within the community once I became more well known. These are rituals that people teach and that they really like. It’s like everybody does. So they must be legitimate. It’s almost like I was getting confirmation as I went along. But I’ve still never read a book on mediumship or, or watched people shows the whole way through. I’ve caught little glimpses of people show here and there. And then I then I get bored, and I want to watch because I do this. I live and breathe this. I’m like, now, I want to watch like to cry. And we’re like, so like, I want to watch something else, you know? Yeah. It’s really draining, though. So,

Brian Smith 43:17
yeah, well, I think it’s really taken out how different people tend to do it differently. As I’m friends with a lot of meetings. I’ve talked to a lot of mediums and work with them in various capacities. So for example, I have a friend has a medium, this dude can do 15 readings a day. And I’m like, and but I’ve talked to I’ve seen other means I can only do one reading a week. Yeah, there are people that that it just really takes everything out. Um, so I think there’s maybe different ways that people do it. And and with someone like yourself, it’s just seems to I kind of pictures, maybe like a battery. And so when you’re doing this, you’re like, sending this energy out making this connection. And then when it’s over, you got to recharge.

Carolyn Clapper 43:58
When some people charge you, you’re right. Some spirits, some people, I call them people over them and it confuses people because they’re the same to me. So it’s like, whatever some spirits that when they come through, they’re like, they charged me like they actually give me energy and make me happy like your daughter. She charges me like, I love her. She’s one of my favorite people in the world. I mean, that I’ve ever met in this world, or that world. I just frickin adore her. Okay, so like she charges me like, but that’s probably that probably falls in line with like, who she was here. She’s got this beautiful energy. She’s like, I just she came through this beautiful light and she was sitting on my bed and she was just, like, ready to go. She’s like, okay, so you don’t remember how we met? And I’ll talk about that in a second because I do. Yeah, okay, good. But, um, because I’d like to, because it’s a shout out to her and I just I love her. But yeah, somebody like her. She gives me energy and she’s like, She breeds love. she exhales love and I don’t know just like this excitement for life like, Yeah, I don’t look she is life. Do you understand that sometimes just life and, and yeah, and some people are less so that way but she really is truly just she’s loving light like if people were to see her in the light that I see her and or whomever gets to whomever is blessed enough to be able to meet her in that way. She’s so shiny, like she’s just her smile is radiant, her eyes sparkle. She looks just like I had never seen her in photo when I had met you over Facebook. So here’s the thing. When I met you over Facebook, we were friends on there. I don’t remember why we were friends on it. It must have connected to somebody else. And I kept getting these like little these little updates or whatever on how many steps you would take and like a Fitbit. Yeah, yeah. And it kept showing up on my timeline. Well, I don’t generally care about that not to be mean or anything. Okay, okay. So like, I didn’t really take notice of it. I was just like, Damn, this guy’s ambitious. And I’m so lazy, like, I need to start walking. So I just started thinking, you know, I need to do more of this, I need to find my Fitbit. So I started taking notice of it, because it’s just showing up more and more. And there’s a lot of friends. I don’t see any other stuff on there. And we didn’t know each other. And I was seeing like every day how many steps you were taking? Well, this went on for a while and then one day, I get this sense. Okay, so I didn’t get her full on at this moment. I got a sense I bet. Like she’s pushing in on me, okay. And I hear and in my mind, and she says, is trying to catch up with me walking to catch up with me. Yeah, no. And I said, I said, Wait, I’m like sitting here. Like, wait, who is that? You know, they mean, cuz like, we weren’t even connected. I was just reading your Facebook steps. And I’m like, Oh, shit. Like, I’ve got to say this, right? Like, I? I was like, No, I can’t say this. Like, what if this person is not open to this, this is not fair for me to put on him. And like, give me more give me more sense. I’m talking to whomever I’m hearing because at the time it didn’t know. And like, give me more give me more. And then I see her then I she comes into my, my vision. Okay? And I see her. And I’m like, Oh my god, I think this is his daughter. Like she’s got to be a daughter or something. Like she’s like, that’s the sense that I got okay. And she goes, she goes he’s he’s walking to catch up with me. Tell him to wear the purple Converse. Yeah, purple shoes. Okay. And I was like, I said back to her. How am I gonna say this? And she goes, just say it to say it. And she’s so sparkly inside. Looks like I’m doing it. I don’t care. I love this girl. And I don’t care. I’ll just do it. Who cares if I look like a crazy nutcase? So I wrote, you know, for the first time, anything that you know, and I wrote that, and I got nothing, not that you didn’t like it. You didn’t love it. You didn’t respond at all for three days. And I was like, Oh, shit, what if I’m wrong? Because you know, when you don’t get that confirmation, what’s wrong? You’re like, wait a minute, am I wrong? So then I went to your page, and I’m like, Oh, God, am I wrong? And there was nothing on your page about her that I could see nothing at the time. This is like, I don’t know. Like now I think I’ve seen stuff about her that pops up on my timeline. But at the time, I couldn’t be there was nothing. So I thought, well, I don’t think I’m wrong. Because I obviously see her I don’t know why I’m seeing this.

And a couple days later, you were like you liked it. And I was like, Oh, good. And then you were like, Yes, I am. You know, and I’m like, and you said something you acknowledge the purple shoes. And I was like, sure. I’m like, thank God. And that’s how it sparked. You responded. And then I was like, thank you. I’m so sorry if that was invasive, but this is what I saw. And if you want to talk for a minute, feel free to call me and I’ll communicate for you. And you were like, let’s do it. Yeah, so it was a very, like, sporadic.

Yeah, no, I

Brian Smith 49:23
was walking to catch up with I’d forgotten about that part of it. But yeah, you know, it’s, it’s,

Carolyn Clapper 49:29
it came through to me.

Brian Smith 49:30
Yeah, it’s just how people come into our life. And then I remember you and I had become friends. And I was on another board with this woman who’s a professional skeptic. And she’s a mutual friend of ours. And she said, I don’t believe in mediumship I don’t believe in it, but she’s like, but I believe in investigating things. So I’m going to check it out. So she said, Brian, I know you know, a lot of mediums. Tell me the best medium, you know, and I’m gonna go to that person. And I’m going to prove this is this is not real. And that was it. That was our friend. Awesome. Yeah.

Carolyn Clapper 49:57
Thank you. That’s a huge My head’s expanding. No, just kidding. It’s that. Well, it was. It’s funny

Brian Smith 50:05
because Kim and I were friends to this day, and I’ve actually had her on the program. And we’ve talked about you. And, you know, you just blew her away. I mean, she came back, she said, There is no way that she could look at this. I think she even gave you a fake name and stuff, too. I think she went through all that she did that pipe.

Carolyn Clapper 50:21
Yeah. Anyway, no, just kidding. But yeah,

Unknown Speaker 50:26
it’s, um, she told me later, she was like, she gave me a fake name. And then, and then she had her boss come to me, and her boss gave me a fake name, too. And it was so weird, because I’m like, I mean, I can’t get people’s information. But it’s a weird story. And they’re like, they’re, they’re coming out, they’re willing to come out with their stories in my book, or whatever forum. And like, really open up about details, because the readings that I gave them, because she’s at the bunker or whatever, like, global issues, governmental issues, dude, I was like, What am I who am I talking to here? You know what I mean? Well, her first reading was mostly just really personal. But yeah, when I read for her boss, it was like, just worldly global, like crazy stuff. And in fact, she came back later and said, that I had predicted the, but I can’t. I predicted a really big event that had happened and unfolded that she was connected to and everybody knows about us regarding sex trafficking, and where these things were occurring. And I’m reluctant even to say that online in Vegas, I just said it because, like, it’s just, it kind of scares me, I freaked me out.

Carolyn Clapper 51:44
I know, you, you also

Brian Smith 51:46
have worked with the police on cold cases, and stuff like that, and you and your amazing medical intuitive. So in the few minutes we have left, maybe you can tell me something about your medical intuition, maybe no personal details, but can you give me an example.

Carolyn Clapper 52:03
Okay, so I’m a Medical Medium, I consider that different than a medical into it, I used to consider myself a medical into it. But I think that that word in term is tossed around way too much. What I mean by that is people are out there claiming their medical intuitive, and that might mean that they might get a little something medically and it might be confirmed in a might not be. I work with five doctors in the spirit on the other side, I don’t see their faces, they’re faceless, they stand behind me, I go into a medical reading completely different than I go into a spiritual reading, okay, a spiritual reading, I go into it in front of me medical in back, totally different process, mentally, okay. And they go through the person from the right hand, and they go up through their body, same path every time. And I don’t know anything about a person’s medical history going into it, nothing at all, most of my all of my readings right now, because of COVID are done over the phone. And I, you know, I work both internationally and nationally. And they take me through people’s bodies, and they’ll show me everything from deficiencies to, to issues that happened as a baby, when they were 13, when they were, you know, throughout their life, the past, present and future trauma is what I see. And we have found everything from cancer, to leaking in certain vertebrates in the sign to, you know, the cheese, I mean, to set to see with, you know, bladder infections to rejection of metal, in somebody’s mind is a book that a woman’s writing, she’s a client of mine, and she’s writing a book about her experience with her daughter right now. Or it’s written, she told me that she had written me into it. And so that’s public, but her daughter I had seen go into surgery, and her back was open to the surgery, I’m seeing this you’re reading with them. And I see her in the surgical room, and her back is open. And the doctors It was supposed to be like, you know, three to five hour surgery, and it ended up being like eight hours. So they told me that the length of time it was versus what it was supposed to be. And I see the doctor standing there, they grabbed it open in one, Nick something and their spine and he’s like, ooh, like he, oops, you know, and I’m like, What do you mean? Oops, right. And this extended the surgery, they nicked her spine, and when they closed her back up, she’s had seizures and issues and stuff like that since then. It’s just been like, devastating to her life. And they had told me you know, through her reading, they told me that she had a metal allergy, but I see all this metal in her spine and I Like but then they tell me what titanium or whatever it’s like an it’s a non allergic metal. But then they tell me that inside of the screws, there’s nickel. Yeah. And it took her mother fighting like going to doctor after doctor after doctor a surgeon after searching I mean, to try and get somebody to relook at this. She did get it tested and she was allergic to, to the nickel in fact, and she had to go back through and get these removed. Yes,

Brian Smith 55:29
um, someone’s extremely allergic to nickel. And yeah,

Carolyn Clapper 55:32
there you go. Right. So it’s like, so they’ll tell me very, very specific things. Now, people will come to me like thinking, Okay, well, you can save my life. While not not really because all the credit belongs to spirit, of course. They have saved people’s lives through the information that’s come through prolong that, you know, prolong that to a degree or given somebody a better quality of life. But it’s not an we’re all gonna go eventually, unfortunately,

Brian Smith 56:06
yeah, I will say we can’t save anybody’s lives, we can only we can only prolong them

Carolyn Clapper 56:11
and give them information that I can only tell people what I’m showing. And that’s it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Brian Smith 56:19
Well, I know what you get. And I’ve heard some of your stories is extremely specific, you know, it’s like, write this down and take it to your doctor. So like, I see something like in the lower half of your right quadrant, and that kind of a thing.

Carolyn Clapper 56:33
It’s really specific, like sometimes it takes me aback like there was a lady who I recently found, they’re like, she needs to have these patches. They’re showing the patches, and then they’re talking about stem cells. And I didn’t know they had stem cell patches that you can put on your body and like what are you like it? Some of it just seems so abstract to me that I can’t understand. And I’ll literally be like, do you have your computer? And they’re like, yes, I’m like, turn it on. Put on Google, I want you to type this in there. Just please do this for me for validation. And I’ll have people do homework for me while I’m like reading them. And we’ll type something and ended up come up. And we’re both like, Wow, that’s so crazy. Yeah. So, and yes, I’m not a medical doctor, I don’t claim to be I don’t have any. I don’t have any education in it. Anything that comes through me comes to spirit, okay. To me, I always say, must be taken to a medical doctor and be validated to a medical doctor, take everything, every single note and let them say You’re crazy. Who cares? Have it validated and an advocate for your own health because doctors are going to laugh at you when you say that they that you spoke to me. But then, you know, I’ve had people go in a guy who had ms that I just adore. I loved him so much. I knew there was something wrong with him medically. Because, I mean, it’s kind of a cheat. I went to his house and he was in a wheelchair. So da, okay. But I went there. But I went there for a spiritual reading for him. And I wasn’t intending to do any medical on them. And during his reading, his dad had come through and his dad had ms to he told me, but his dad didn’t die of Ms. He died of something else. And he had told me what and then he brought me to his son. And he says, Just tell him that he has a catheter in his spine, and it’s off to the right. It’s sires off to the left, and it was going into his muscles and his fat and that into his spine. And it was it was medication. And it was giving him 80% worse pain and his legs. So he told us that he I didn’t know he had a catheter in his bank, because you can’t see that it was like inside. And he confirmed that he has one went into his doctor, his surgeon, he was like, please, my medium told me this. You need to check it and they’re laughing. I mean, they’re kind of laughing it off. Like who? Yeah, he advocated three times. Just check it, please. She’s on point all the time. They checked it. And it was accurate, of course. And so they, so then they fixed it. And his doctor said, You have one talented medium. And that’s all that was like, his little gesture of recognition. And once I get that, and I’m like, it feels so good. It feels so good. Just to get that, you know

Brian Smith 59:28
by now that you’re just incredible. Your

Carolyn Clapper 59:32
well did you so spirit, no, but the people who work with me are incredible, right? But they’re incredible

Brian Smith 59:37
channel, a vessel that they use. And so I was I said I’ve worked with a lot of mediums. I’ve met a lot of mediums and if you could convince Kendall that you’re legit, because like I said, she said I’m going to prove that this does this is not real.

Carolyn Clapper 59:54
I just spoke with her yesterday. I did you

Kate this the second time, actually the third time In three days, she has come up and I keep telling her like, man, your husband, he will work his way into. He wants to talk to her. And he ended up. Yeah. And so I gave her a buzz last night because she came up in a reading last night, in fact, too funny. And now she’s coming up again. And she loves it. She loves it. Some investigating, we have to do off to talk about it later, it’s gonna be really fun. Like the last time I gave her a reading, it went off into this crazy direction, where they took me to her home. Oh, my God, Brian, it’s like I was because I guess you know how people call it like remote viewing or whatever. I’m like a remote viewer on crack. Because it’s totally different. For me. It’s like, I’m all up in their business. And I can see everything. So they took me to her home. And I’m like, going down in the basement, and they showed me this area. And it led to this entire like, like, they pulled me out of her home into the town that she’s in. And I want to investigate that area now. So maybe we can share it another time like her and I and you can it’s going to be a really fun story. I mean, it’s really exciting. I’m going to investigate, like all of this area that she’s in, and then have her like, have her validate it, like look for the validation, cuz she’s a debunker. So she can do it. I’m gonna put her to work. Exactly, exactly.

Brian Smith 1:01:23
I am glad that we finally got to do this. It’s been a long time coming here. But we’re saying I love the Gremlins are trying to stop us are, what the deal was. But when the scheduling issues and technical issues, but we got it in, we got it done. So I appreciate you doing this.

Carolyn Clapper 1:01:42
Yes. And I appreciate you having me. Thank you so much. I just adore both you and your wife and your family. And I think you’re incredibly strong. And you’re just a beacon of light. In this world. I think that your videos are so inspiring and more people should listen to you. And I don’t do a lot of interviews. I’m asked to do a lot and I’m honored to be

able to be interviewed by you. Okay,

Brian Smith 1:02:08
great. I’m glad I’m glad that Shayna came to you and you and I connected. So let me give your contact information. I know you’re extremely busy. But you’re Carolyn’s website is the next world medium.com. And you can contact Carolyn through there. I know your your waiting list is pretty long, right?

Unknown Speaker 1:02:26
I mean,

Carolyn Clapper 1:02:28
I don’t know if I’m booking into February right now. It’s not crazy. Yeah. It’s not crazy. Life’s not like yours out. You know what I mean? Yeah, cuz that would be pretty crazy. But I only do one reading a day because some of my readings get really long. Like you can see how long winded I am. So obviously my reading

Brian Smith 1:02:50
several multi hour conversations. So I was wondering how we’re gonna do this. But I’ll have you back. Definitely. Sure.

Carolyn Clapper 1:03:00
Okay, awesome. I’d be on next time. We’ll talk politics.

Yeah. Yes, we will. We’ll wait till after.

Brian Smith 1:03:12
Oh, Carolyn. It’s been great. Thanks for doing this. So persistent and getting on.

Carolyn Clapper 1:03:17
Yes. Thank you so much for being patient with me. And we only had one mishap with their computers, which was incredibly good.

Brian Smith 1:03:27
Yeah, I mean, let’s let’s not push. What was that? All right. Have a great night. All right. Bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Suzanne Giesemann is a messenger of hope—a mystic, metaphysical teacher, and medium who shares The Awakened Way – a path to knowing Who you are and why you’re here. Whether in her books, her classes, and workshops, her weekly radio show, or her one-on-one sessions, Suzanne provides stunning evidence of life after death. She is a former U.S. Navy Commander who served as a commanding officer and as aide to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Suzanne’s gift of communication with those on the other side has been recognized as highly credible by noted afterlife researchers. She brings messages of hope, healing, and love that go straight to the heart.

I’ve known Suzanne for nearly four years. Our paths continue to cross and I feel like she’s a friend. Shayna drops in on Suzanne on occasion to get messages to us. Shayna was also a big part of one of Suzanne’s presentations at several conferences. Suzanne is a great resource in these trying times. I recommend subscribing to her daily updates. They always help me through my day.




Brian Smith 0:00
Hey everybody, this is Brian back with another episode of grief to growth. And I’ve got with me today my friend Suzanne giesemann. I was just telling Suzanne earlier I kind of feel like she needs no introduction cuz I feel like everybody in the world knows who she is. But I guess that everybody does. So I’m going to introduce her anyway. Suzanne giesemann is a messenger of hope she’s a mystic, metaphysical teacher and a medium who shares the awakened way, which is a path of knowing who you are, why you’re here. Whether it’s in her books or classes and workshops for weekly radio show or one on one sessions. She provides stunning evidence of life after death. Suzanne is a former US naval commander who served as commanding officer as a to the air chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff. Her gift of communication with those on the other side is to recognize as highly credible by noted afterlife researchers and she brings messages of hope, healing and love that goes straight to the heart. And I also want to say Suzanne, I consider to be a good friend. I was just thinking this morning, I guess I’ve known you for almost four years. met you in a workshop down in Pensacola, Florida, like, you know, four years ago. So I want to welcome Suzanne Kaseman degree for growth.

Suzanne Giesemann 1:04
Thanks, Brian. I’ve really enjoyed watching you change a bit over the years you were you’re still intense. But you were so intense and serious when it came to my workshop. And and I didn’t know if you were into all of this or not. And now I know that we all are.

Brian Smith 1:22
Yeah, well, that was I think it was February of 2017 sort of been probably a year and a half after Shayna had passed. And I was still at the time very, very deep. My grief, I kind of knew who you were at the time, my wife had been following you. And she said, If Suzanne ever comes close to us, I want to go see her and Florida is nowhere close to where we are. But we decided to come and it was great. It was it was really great to meet you. And I said that we felt developed a friendship since then. So for people who don’t know who you are, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into doing this.

Suzanne Giesemann 1:55
Well, even just saying that who I am, I’ve changed so much since Oh 12 years ago, or longer 14 years ago, that when I have to when I’m asked to tell my story, it’s from a whole different point of view. Now I recognize that what I’m about to share with you is strictly a story. It’s really not who I am. It’s not who any of us are at the deepest level. But we all learn from our story. So my story is that for most of my life, I was that Navy officer that you just described. And I had no idea that was a greater reality or that there was another aspect to us beyond this human life. And so I lived very much stuck in the story and took my role as a Navy Commander very seriously. And that that served me well because I did get to rise to the top of the whole military lifestyle there flying with the chairman on Air Force One and Air Force two and meeting kings and queens. It was just an amazing lifestyle. I get to serve as a commanding officer. That’s every every Navy officers dream. But there was still this emptiness inside this something’s missing type of feeling that I know most of us can identify with. And I don’t have children of my own. But my husband Ty has two daughters. And one of them Susan followed in dad’s footsteps. But she joined the Marine Corps, even though I said that’s like, not the best one for women. You know, that’s the hardest route. So she took that one. And I was with the chairman on 911. We were the lead in the last aircraft in US airspace. And that was a real wake up call for me to start asking, Why are some people in the wrong place at the wrong time? And all those other deep life questions because I knew some of the people that were killed at the Pentagon that I had just left hours earlier. That was my office building. And I wasn’t satisfied with the answers I got. So just put that aside. The seeking didn’t last for long. And all I knew was I wanted to run away from life after 911. So I did I retired from the Navy as soon as I was retirement eligible. And with my husband sailing for several years, we sold the house and cars and life was idyllic. I literally ran away from Washington DC, which maybe isn’t a bad thing to do. And that’s when I really had the big wake up call. It was like life said look, you have a path you came here to do it. This all was background. And so we had sailed across the Atlantic Ocean living a dream. And we’re off the coast of Croatia when we got the news we needed to call home something important had happened. And that phone call dropped us to our knees was that Susan was crossing the flight line at Marine Corps airbase where she was station and a bolt of lightning out of the blue Strucker down and they worked on her for seven hours and they couldn’t save her. So To find out that Susan was gone and a phone call was, Oh, it’s shattering. We return to the United States. And I grabbed a couple of books on the afterlife to take back to Croatia after the funeral. But it was the funeral itself that really changed my life. Because in that moment of looking at Susan’s body, I knew there was something else besides the body that makes up who we really are. It was this epiphany, having not really seen no, having not seen anybody. I don’t I may have seen a grandparent or something, but nothing had the effect of me of knowing that that wasn’t Susan, that was just the vehicle. And so I decided to start meditating. I thought people have done this. I’ve heard about this meditation thing. I’m gonna see if I can connect with her in whatever form she is, she has to still exist. And I’m gonna take my husband to see a medium

and so people need to understand I had heard about mediums to think that I would one day be a medium was not even on my radar. Yeah. And, ah, never saw spirits never talked to guides. They’re nothing. I used to think there’s no such thing as spirit guides. Can you hear him laughing at me now? And the medium? Well, I made sure she didn’t know our last name. I was not going to be gullible. I was not going to be hoodwinked by somebody that was a fraud. But this medium, nailed it. She brought in a young girl who passed suddenly in her 20s, who was she had an electric tingly feeling running up and down her arms, like, like, like lightning strike. She said, I have the headache of Zeus and Athena all of a sudden, and Zeus is the god scene with a lightning bolt. Oh, that had me sobbing. But what was truly life changing? Brian? was when that medium said, Wait, wait, this young girl who’s looking at your husband and saying Daddy, Daddy, and she’s upstairs dancing around in front of you saying mother is bringing with her a little baby, a boy she wants to introduce to you but he’s standing back shyly, as if he doesn’t know you. And he’s sucking his thumb. Well, what we hadn’t told the boy, he hadn’t told the medium anything. But what very few people knew was that Susan was six months pregnant with a boy when she was killed. So we lost both of them that day. But that medium showed us that you don’t lose them. In the total sense physically, yes. But that, that turned my my worldview upside down, I couldn’t deny there’s a greater reality. And so I was all in, I’m gonna learn about mediumship. I’m going to find out why it works, how it works. And I’m going to write a book about mediums that people will actually read not not, not some text book, but maybe a biography. And I ended up writing a biography of two mediums. And by attending their classes found out, I can do it too. And I’ll just touch a quick, I don’t do anything halfway. And once I found out, I had a connection to the spirit world, my whole life has become about making that connection, as clear as possible. Because if I can offer the kind of healing that that medium gave to our family in one hour to anybody else, that would be nothing more sacred to me. And now I get to do it every day.

Brian Smith 8:32
Yeah, one thing. But there’s a lot of things I find fascinating about you. But you know, it’s interesting that you’re you’re not what we call a natural born medium. You didn’t see spirit from the time you were a child. But I know you I know you for several years now I know how you work on things and how you work to develop this. So that gives hopes to people like myself and other people that feel like we don’t have this as a natural ability. So how did you choose to meditate to to connect with Susan, Where’d that come from?

Suzanne Giesemann 8:59
Well, it must have come from the soul. Because I just knew that I had to quiet my mind so I could hear her or since her obviously my eyes weren’t working to see her. I started trying, saying Susan, let me see you and that never work. I still to this day have not seen a spirit. But I’ve thought okay, I’m not going to hear with my with my physical ears. She’s not in physical form anymore. So something in me said shut out the outer world, and maybe I’ll find her. And so I just sat and I fell asleep every day for three weeks when I would sit to meditate. It’s like the body was saying, whoo, we finally get that time. Yeah, this one doesn’t take naps, you know. And then I just started to know things. It was actually three years, three years till I connected with Susan Hmm, but I connected with other people’s loved ones first. That’s really important for grieving people to understand that your commitment Just the knowing that they’re here to trust that they’re here. But the thing is, Brian, so many other wondrous things happen in those three years, including total transformation of how I see the world. And now I saw myself that it was worth it.

Brian Smith 10:16
Yeah, I think that’s another really important point. Because I think a lot of us, we want to see our kids or hear them and we feel like we’re not connecting. If it’s not something physical, you know it through our auditory senses, our visual, and it’s really not, it doesn’t work that way. I think for most people.

Suzanne Giesemann 10:32
Well, could it also be that Susan was hanging back, so I would have all those transformative experiences. Yeah. And get to know the greater reality better, and get to know what love is. and self love is and build up my own consciousness. And then it was like, Okay, now I’ll come in. And there she is.

Brian Smith 10:50
Yeah. So um, you go through this and you go through this transformation and and you start what started you actually doing mediumship as a as a profession or to start reading for people?

Suzanne Giesemann 11:01
Well, it was this exactly what I said, when I discovered I could connect and if you go to YouTube, and and search for Suzanne keys, and messages of hope documentary, you’ll see in there, we recreated the moment in gentle habits class where I was there to write her story. But she pulled me to the front of the room and said, there’s a spirit here, you can do this, what do you sense, I not only got how the guy died, that it was somebody’s father that how old he was, and what he looked like.

But I he gave me his nickname.

When that happened, I said, Oh, my God, I can do this too. And like I said before, if I can do this, for others, I am all in and I was I just started taking classes and working more on myself. And when you take classes, you do practice readings with other people. And I said, Wow, this is working. So let’s just make every reading a real one. And the practice one to this day, it’s a practice of doing mediumship. And we just get better and better and better by doing it. And that’s what makes it so joyful, even for the medium.

Brian Smith 12:08
Yeah, and I’ve seen over the years, as I’ve watched you develop, and I’ve seen you, you get excited when you find new techniques and new things that work and you’re always, you’re always pushing yourself, you’re always trying to get better at stuff. And you call yourself an evidential medium, and a few mediums do but not all mediums do. So what’s what’s an evidential medium.

Suzanne Giesemann 12:28
An evidential medium is one who’s not satisfied or content, until and unless those across the veil give us verifiable facts about them that we couldn’t possibly know. That’s the evidence. So we don’t settle just for messages. Oh, there’s a beautiful light here, your loved one is here, they love you very much. Those are the messages that balance out the evidence in a reading, we need to get both evidence and messages. It doesn’t always have to be 5050. But there needs to be enough evidence that shows us that shows the continuity of consciousness through validation, that life is continuous.

Brian Smith 13:07
Yeah, and I that’s something I’ve learned from you and I and I’ve worked with a lot of mediums over the years with helping parents heal. And something I’ve learned from from you especially, is does have to be as balanced. I’ve worked with mediums who just give you a list of evidence and and it’s just those readings are very dry, they’re frankly, they’re not very healing. And then there’s some mediums to just say your grandmother is here and your grandmother loves you very much. And you know, those we have to wonder, did they really cut my grandmother or not? So and I’ve noticed with yourself, you always establish evidence, you know, first and every time I’ve seen you give a reading or, or do anything, it’s all you you’re about the evidence, which helps us to really to believe and understand that you’re really making that connection.

Suzanne Giesemann 13:47
I’m glad you noticed that that’s certainly the goal. But you know, Brian, I’ve even narrowed it down more lately and I teach I teach. I love to show people how this work that that you can do it too, because it is a natural ability. We are all souls. And this is Soul to Soul communication. But what I asked every medium to go for is to capture that essence of that loved one across the veil. Who are they as a person and a soul. So you must feel into that personality. If I don’t feel their personality I call the reading off, because it is possible to pick up information about someone as a mentalist from the sitter’s energy field. And so it’s very possible to get that list of evidence and be blown away. Wow. But if you don’t capture the essence, how do we know you really had that person there? This is a two way conversation. They make me laugh those across the veil the way they bring things through. I have to tell you, I did one the other day. I started off and I knew the couple had a child who had passed and I tuned in and I was getting a few things but I said This feels like the sun. And they said, No, it’s a daughter. And I thought, whoa, this, you know, you start off and it’s, it’s like a snowball, sometimes the energy picks up, and I’m like, Whoa, that’s a big one to get wrong to not be able to feel male or female. Then we got her I dug in, and I could feel her personality, and now were flowing. And then all of a sudden, she shouted her name at me. And I usually don’t get names, but it was an unusual thing. It was like, Whoa, I said, she just gave me the name such as such a mom very nonchalantly goes, Yeah, that’s her name. And I went,

Unknown Speaker 15:34
Wow, you’d have no idea what

Suzanne Giesemann 15:35
a miracle it is for me to get the name. And then I started laughing. I said, Your daughter said, Your daughter just said just like that. Well, that was the makeup for thinking I was a guy. And the mother laughed, and she said, that sounds just like her. And I said, That’s because it is her. And that’s when you get the essence. And so the test of any good reading is, does your client or sit or leave and say, Oh, my god, that was my loved one. Because you captured their essence.

Brian Smith 16:08
Yeah, absolutely. And that’s something that you do so well, when you when you do readings. So I a lot of people, my listeners are parents who have lost children because of my association with helping parents heal. And because of my own story, as you know, the name of my show is grief to growth. So how did you think mediumship can help in terms of transforming people’s grief?

Suzanne Giesemann 16:27
Ah, transformative is the word I had a father that wrote to me and begged me to do a reading and my waiting list has been closed while I tried to catch up with the long list. But the heart said do this one. And I did it. He said, my wife is she’s not eating or sleeping well, well, her son was his stepson came through so beautifully with a few moments. She was pretty serious throughout grief, of course, does that. But at one point, she left too. And one of the things he showed us that was so significant it was at the time, she told me I could share a domino, show me a little Domino, I said, Now I don’t think he’s shown me played the board game. And she goes, let me tell you, let me tell you, he, he was a manager at Domino’s, his dad owned a whole a Domino’s franchise. And one of the things he left was this little Domino truck. And no wonder we were clapping. That’s a wow, you know, and never many other wells in that reading. But afterwards, I wrote to her husband who had originally reached out to me and I said, Tell me how she’s doing. And he said, she cried every day for two years. And she has not cried a single day, since you’re reading. Oh, how’s that for wrapping up what a one hour session with an evidential medium, can do by the grace of spirit, when the energy is perfect, and you have the best energy with that spirit with the medium and with the loved one here. And everything clicks, you can show that parent or any loved one, they are still part of your lives. And so we can’t turn back the clock and get them back physically. But it’s so much different than dead and gone. Yeah, forever. And that’s simply not the case.

Brian Smith 18:18
Yeah. Now I know, I’ve seen some people get I don’t use the word but get addicted to medium readings. It’s like they want to come back over and over again. So what do you say to someone that’s saying, I want to connect with my my loved one again, I want to go get another reading?

Suzanne Giesemann 18:34
Wow, that’s a good question.

Just realize that we are here to live our lives, they are living their lives in a different chapter. And just like we would call our loved ones regularly. They’re overseas now. And it’s a long distance call. And it cost a little bit of money. And trusting that they’re here is one huge goal. Developing your own sense of their presence is huge. There’s only so much they can tell you through a medium. So it’s realizing we don’t need the medium. We, the greatest thing we can do is develop that connection ourselves. And that’s how I started on this path. My sole goal was to connect with Susan and she doesn’t come through that often. But when she does its bonus, it’s wonderful. But I just trust that she’s around and live my life to the fullest in her honor.

Brian Smith 19:33
Yeah. And what would you say to someone, they’re new to this thing, this mediumship thing and they’re saying I’m nervous. I’m skeptical. Should I you know, what would you say that person?

Suzanne Giesemann 19:45
I would say, what’s that word skeptical? and say I’m open minded? Because I just heard a recording with David Hawkins the other day and he said, people who are atheists create exactly what they expect. There is no God that you get what you expect. And I said, this is exactly what happens in a reading. If you expect that there’s no connection, you, your wishes may very well be fulfilled, because you are walking that whole flow of energy. Remember how I said, it’s so important that the sitter is part of that connection. And I’ve had this happen so much so that if somebody said, I want you to do a reading for my neighbor who’s grieving, I won’t do the reading, unless the neighbor shows me, I want this reading. I’m open to it. Because if they’re skeptical, and they only do it, because their friend says I should have this reading with this person who was a medium who’s probably a fraud, guess what? They’re going to get nothing. And they’ve just proven themselves, right? in their own mind, we know better. So being open minded, open hearted, is hugely important. Because it’s a flow of energy. And it’s part of our life’s path to open up to the greater reality, if we’re already sucked to it beforehand.

Brian Smith 21:10
Not going to experience it. And it’s interesting. So I hear you saying you should be careful with the word skeptical because I tell people to be skeptical really means to be still be open minded. It just means to be to be cautious and to so when you went to see the medium, you said you weren’t you weren’t gonna be gullible, you weren’t gonna feed or anything, but you were open to the experience.

Suzanne Giesemann 21:28
I was. And I was skeptical. So that word is valid, but just saying be cautious of it. And we should be. Every time I say should my guides grab me watch the sunset, okay? It is beneficial to be skeptical. Because not everybody does make a good connection. But that open mindedness and open heartedness is hugely important for the energy field that you all create together.

Brian Smith 22:02
I have to say, I’ve been I’ve been in this field for about four years now working with people like mediums, etc. And I find a lot of people in this field are still skeptical. You know, I Sandra Champlain one of the first people I started listening to her podcast, she still calls herself a skeptic. And I know a lot of mediums are skeptical, not about mediumship itself. But about individuals. We don’t we don’t know if that person is on the up and up are a good, you know, good medium or not. So, I think you’re right, it is beneficial to be skeptical. But we need to be open minded when the evidence does present itself.

Suzanne Giesemann 22:33
And you know, what I was showing the other day, because I’m still skeptical about some other medium. I was showing I’m projecting. So somebody must have told us that something about mediums or how other people are, and we’re certainly not that way. So we projected on other people. We don’t want to be thought of that way. So we projected on other people. So it’s really interesting, the lessons we learned from our own defenses, isn’t it?

Brian Smith 22:59
It is Yeah, it is. So when I get I my experience is mostly with parents. And when a parent loses a child, I think it’s as I hate to say special kind of grief, because every grief event is unique and different. But we could get into a really, really deep grief. And I’ve heard some mediums say, well, that grief can prevent you from making your own connection, which to hear that as a parent, it just hurts because like, how do I get out of this? How do I make that connection? So would you say to that person,

Suzanne Giesemann 23:29
you don’t push it down, you allow it to be present and you honor it, in honoring that grief, you’re honoring the love for your loved one, you realize it’s a process your book and program is grief to growth, you go through that grief for the growth that ensues. And you know that as you go through it instead of suppressing it, your connection with your loved one will eventually awaken as your vibration rises. I want to just give you an example of two days ago, I sat to do a reading. And the same exact thing happened two days in a row. I said this feels like a sun and they said no, it’s a daughter and I went Oh, not again. This is not good. And then I said okay, we’re gonna get the personality. And I felt nothing, no personality. And that’s why I go for the personality. Because I could have been sat there and read their minds about their daughter, but that’s not. There’s no integrity in that. And I said, what’s going on here and I knew exactly what was going on. My husband and I had just been working on our Japanese garden. we just calculated it. An hour ago. We moved literally one tonne of stone that morning, the two of us. I was exhausted. Mentally I felt good. But physically, I was so tired, but I had to schedule this reading and I thought I was going to do it. And clearly my energy was off. So I knew If I don’t feel that personality and I got the agenda wrong, two days in a row This time, it’s me. It’s definitely me. And so I asked them to reschedule for this morning. Hmm. Right after that reading, I fell asleep immediately. And I don’t do nap. So I knew it was me. This morning, I got up, I cleared my Shockers, I was like, we’re gonna do this right away, I can feel my guide. She’s present. I didn’t feel her the other day. And boom, that young girl stepped in the personality. It was a five bar reading. So what am I saying? grief, tiredness, illness, all of these affect our ability to tune in. So yes, grief will get in the way of your connection. But what do we do? We give it time we rest the body, we work through it. Because if you push it down and deny it, it’s still there.

Brian Smith 25:56
Yeah, yeah. That’s why some people that I work with, when it comes to grief, you’ve got to you’ve got to feel it. And you’ve just got to let it come through you. And I was working with someone just yesterday and thought that people apologize to me for crying over working. And I’m like, Don’t ever apologize for crying, those tears are healing. There’s chills or tears are cathartic. They help you get to push that stuff through you. And I heard you say earlier that you know, with yourself even it took us several years to connect with Susan. So I also encourage people you know, to be patient, with yourself and with your loved one.

Suzanne Giesemann 26:29
Yeah, but a very important point is not to despair. I mean, I I got we have fabulous signs from Susan in those three years. I’m talking about feeling her step in hearing her voice and having a conversation with her. That took three years. But in the meantime, locks the document or we got the butterflies we got the TV’s turning on we got the size she was around. But the the other thing is, Brian, as you will know, grief comes in waves. So it’s not

Unknown Speaker 26:57
like when am I finally

Suzanne Giesemann 26:58
passed it. There will be moments of joy. Even when you’re going through the grief process, there will be moments of beautiful lucidity when perhaps your loved one will get through far sooner than with me. We’re all unique. Each one of us.

Brian Smith 27:12
Yeah, it is. It’s a different journey for everyone. As you said some people they might make that connection right away. But when there there are people that do despair, and I’ve seen this when it’s when it’s taken longer than they think it should take especially in those early stages of grief when they’re just just so heavy. And so, so maybe even closed off to having that connection. But it’s also interesting, I talk I’ll talk people so I haven’t had any signs and I’ll ask them that. Have you had any dream? Oh, we I’ve had dreams? Or you know, or I’ve had you know, the TV keeps turning on and off. But I haven’t had any signs. Oh, gosh. Yeah.

Suzanne Giesemann 27:47
Yeah, we have to educate people about signs for sure. Yeah. It was something I want to tell you, but I just lost it. So. Yeah.

Brian Smith 27:57
So um, you were talking about your guide. And you mentioned you said she I didn’t know that you had an individual guy cuz I know about scenario. I know about this group that you that you channel we’ll talk about tonight. But tell me about your guide. How long?

Suzanne Giesemann 28:09
You know, I had barrus my main mediumship guide for the first year of doing this work, but now it’s Brenda. Oh, wow. We have a friend. You know, Brenda, you met her right?

Brian Smith 28:21
Oh, absolutely.

Suzanne Giesemann 28:22
And so Brenda is a real pistol when she was here in physical form. And she had told everybody she was studying mediumship and Suzanne and I are going to be teaching mediumship in a school someday. And I thought, really Brenda, I don’t know about that. And she actually helped me teach a class with the shift network earlier this year. It was stunning. I had a chair set out for her with her Boa on the chair. And she would pull me over here and I would channel her it was it was amazing and hilarious actually how she would take over the class with evidence. And that then within the last in this last year, she has shown me that she is my mediumship guide now, and every reading barrus has stepped back and it’s stunning Brian before every reading we sit down we play this game I say you hear Brenda? She goes yeah, so what’s going on with our friend Lynette and boom, she shows me what Lynette is doing in the moment. Yesterday or no. In yesterday’s reading. I said no, it was whatever three days ago. I sit down I said Brenda you Here she goes. Yeah, and she shows me Lynette moving a zipper up and down. So I quickly get on there. I said Brenda is ready to work. She says she shows me you use the zipper. And Lynette texted back o m g this very instant. I mean, it’s just stunning that this little fun game filled with evidence that our guides are real that somebody we love Brenda is here working now and

Unknown Speaker 29:58
it’s magical

Brian Smith 30:00
That that is that’s really wild because I met Brenda and Lynette in that workshop that I met where I met you and they were at the time like follow you around the country like your, you know your own personal groupies. Yep. And Brenda, I was gonna say was when she was here was a force. And I know as soon as she crossed she came to you, right? Yeah,

Suzanne Giesemann 30:19
yeah. And that mean another one you know, like, what’s Linda don’t tend to do a reading you rarely work. I am. Lynette, Brenda shows me you have your hand and ice, you’re breaking up ice because that little spy, because this is what she’s doing. It’s, it’s stunning. It’s fun. It’s magical. And this is the kind of connection we can get with our loved ones. You notice this is without going through some big ritual quieting my mind. I just sit down. I know she’s here. Just like I tried to get all of you to understand your loved one to pass. When you think about them. They’re right here. So it’s just,

Unknown Speaker 30:54
Hey, what do you have to tell me?

Suzanne Giesemann 30:57
And you can get to the point where you have that kind of relationship Your daughter has dropped in on me like that many times? as I know.

Brian Smith 31:02
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it’s interesting, as you say that also because it takes time to think of our guides, who sees you know, these exalted beings that you know, and and, you know, I’ve read a series a book called The team, I read the I read it a couple times, I love this book, these books, but they talk about how we we are we come here in teams, you know, and we play different roles in each other’s lives. And so Brenda was here, Brenda played a role in your life in the physical. And now Brenda has crossed before you is playing a role as your guide right now. I didn’t realize she’d become your guide on the other side. That’s really cool.

Suzanne Giesemann 31:38
And as you say that about her some exalted being she’s cracking me up, she’s putting on like this turban, and she’s acting like that, but hamming it up because she’s, she’s anything but what, what allowed Brenda to step into that role so quickly is that she worked so hard on herself to clear out the blockages and the gunk, and she truly found self love while in human body. And that’s our path to realize we’re already that love that everybody’s seeking out here. And once we awaken to that,

like it’s like icing on the cake.

Brian Smith 32:13
Yeah. And I want to talk about I want to talk about Ben do some work. I just love talking about Brenda. But you know, she she had this illness that she was, you know, seeking healing from the physical illnesses and that she saw that he saw a healer. And I thought was interesting. Because, you know, the healer said, I guess that Brenda was healed, but not physically. And

Suzanne Giesemann 32:32
that thing, right, she cleared out the last of the gunk, it was Deborah Martin, and you can find that interview on my radio show messages of hope, through my website and the archives, and incredible story of how she sought healing of her cancer. But she died of cancer, but she was healed emotionally, spiritually. And that’s what she says, I went straight to the head of the class Brenda did.

Brian Smith 32:57
Yeah, I think it’s important for people in dogs A lot of times when we we lose a level we’re like, why did they have to go? Why wasn’t my prayer answer? Why weren’t they healed? You know, and, and I remember, this is kind of a segue. But I remember when you were channeling tonight at it was either hpH conference was another conference. And it was hpH. Because everybody in the room that lost children, everybody in the room, child transition. And someone asked why did this happen to us? And so nyas answer was basically, you see it as a tragedy from the human perspective. But from a higher perspective, it’s a different thing. And I still remember that when you when you are you are denia said that. And it’s something I take for as I’ve worked with parents that have gone through this because we we have a very limited perspective that that talking to someone like you and taking your classes and going to your workshops, can help us open up this broader perspective of who we really are.

Suzanne Giesemann 33:53
Yeah, that’s, that’s ultimately the greatest fringe benefit of trying to connect across the veil. We find out there were so much more than these finite beings. And it’s, it is transformational.

Brian Smith 34:03
Yeah. Well, that’s, I think that’s kind of what it’s all about. It’s that I we talked earlier, I said, Tell me about you. And you corrected me instead, it’s about your story. And we identify so closely with our story, but we are these infinite beings.

Suzanne Giesemann 34:19
Yep. And you say that it reminds me that we got invited to the Marine Corps birthday dinner here, where I live in my community were part of the I live in a community called moss Creek and they have moss Creek Marines, and Ty and I are honorary members because of Susan being marine. And we’re both retired Navy officers. So we’re honored that they allow us these Marines allow us to be part of their group. But Ty said, I’m wearing my uniform to that dinner and I thought, oh, we’re allowed to wear uniforms to specific things like that. And I found mine now I’ve retired. It’s really scary 17 years ago now, but I found my uniform and it still fits which is awesome. But I put it on. None. I found this bag of all my medals and all my friends. ribbons and on my doodads. Let’s say I would, that’s a terrible word. No disrespect to the uniform. But it says I was a commanding officer and I served on the Joint Staff. And Brian, I felt myself getting caught up in the story, oh, I even ordered a new set of ribbons because it didn’t have the last one that I earned on my retirement day. You know, it was like my guides caught me up short and said, Yo, what is happening to you? And the next day, I cancelled the order the ribbons. And I said, you know, we love our stories. But I see now I’m so proud of my time in the military. But I’m not gonna wear my uniform to that dinner, because that’s not who I am anymore. Yes, it was a wonderful role. But when you identify with the role, when it causes you to feel more important, or special, or all those things, that’s a trap. That’s a real trap. And so, yeah, I honor the story. Because of that background. People pay attention. When I talk about the gritty reality. So many people say, Oh, if she can believe then it’s safe for me to believe. And it is. Yeah, but I don’t want to go back to

allowing roles to,

to show me who I think I am. Yeah, a lot of times we who are we we’re souls, we are the light, we are the expression of this life force, who put on costumes. And I’m not talking about a uniform, I’m talking about this body. And I know this is so because I talked to those who no longer have a body every day, that’s what mediums have shows us. So my greatest goal is to see all of us here in physical form, without the body to see everybody as the light in the military, you walk down the hallway, you immediately have to look at what rank they are, especially if you’re outside. So you know, if you have to salute them or not. You look at the ribbons, you look at their insignia to identify them to put them in little boxes and see how you relate. That’s that that is the antithesis of seeing everybody as the expression of love of light. You see the difference? Yeah. And it was stunning. How quickly I was just gonna fall right back in that role I get to dress up.

Brian Smith 37:26
Yeah, that’s a great point. Because I think we do get caught up in roles and and we can either cling to those roles sometimes especially I know, sometimes parents when again, when a child transitioned, am I still a mother? Am I still a father? And and we’ve, we grieve the loss of that role. And we’re like, you know, who am I now? Because I’m, that’s all that I was. Or if someone gets divorced, I’m not a wife anymore. So that cleaning to the rolls can cause us a lot of suffering.

Suzanne Giesemann 37:52
Yeah, so you just, you know, we’ve come to this life to play roles. And we do, we do have to identify ourselves in some way, because that’s how we relate to people. But the question I ask is, I show a slide off and with this little character with a ball and chain around the ankle? Does that role help you or hinder you, I still will slip into the commander role when I need to be really organized and get things done. But I opened my heart at the same time and try not to be rigid about things. So that role served me well and still does. But I don’t want it to become my identity.

Brian Smith 38:27
Yeah, and it makes it makes life a lot lighter. I think when we can we can start to carry that perspective on a daily basis. I am not this body. I’m not just you know, Brian, I’m not just Suzanne, this is a role that I’m playing. I played other roles before I play other roles in the future. I think it makes it we can more easily let go of the things that seems so burdensome, you know, in this world.

Suzanne Giesemann 38:52
Yeah. And this is these are the deeper spiritual lessons that all come out of studying mediumship. So it’s just a blessing all around.

Brian Smith 38:59
But we’re going through, you know, incredibly difficult times. It seems like for everybody right now. And I’m sure as a medium, you probably get asked what’s your opinion of what’s going on? And what’s going to happen? And so that leads to a question. Now, what’s the difference between a psychic and a medium? And do you do psychic things? Or do you talk to dead people?

Suzanne Giesemann 39:20
Both because once you can talk to the spirit, you tune into an energy field and we and human forms are that energy field field, we just happen to have a body. So if you can tune into a spirit without a body, you can also tune into spirit with the body. And so you just merge your energy field and read it. But as far as the future, I don’t see the future as laid out in stone. It’s so variable depending on the choices people make. So the future is predictable to a certain point because you can get the higher perspective and see all the parts coming together based on choices that have already been made or about to be made, but too much farther than a few weeks out. It’s challenging, there are some who can do that very well. But that’s not to usual. So a psychic is reading the energy of someone here in a physical body. mediumship is someone who’s no longer in a body or guides and angels know that. As far as what’s going on now, the guides continuously just say, it’s all going to depend on the choices that you all make. But everything everything, especially chaos, and unrest is an opportunity to learn through trial and error, what works and what doesn’t. And always, when we tune into the heart, and align with the light, the force that flows through us, we come together in much more beautiful ways.

Brian Smith 40:43
Yeah, I think I think the chaos suits from my perspective, the castle numbers do breed bring us sometimes Stark choices. And we realize we get to make choices. It exposes things that maybe we could be doing better. But I know this is a time where a lot of people are feeling nervous, they’re feeling very scared, and wondering if everything’s gonna be okay.

Suzanne Giesemann 41:06
Ultimately, everything at the deepest level is okay, because source can’t be harmed. And we are an expression of that. And we will all eventually leave these physical bodies and say, God, it was like waking up from a dream. And I look at them, and I’m still fine. So if only I had known then that all is well. So if we could just, it’s like they say die daily to the ego to the story, right? If we could just join our loved ones in our awareness, sit beside them looking down on us. They tell us our loved ones tell us repeatedly in my readings, it’s fine. Everything is okay. So we we get caught up in the drama and forget, there’s another whole perspective we can take and find that piece that’s already present.

Brian Smith 41:50
Yeah, and I I get your messages every day from tonight. And I appreciate those very much because I get I first thing I look at when I get on Facebook in the morning, and it helps for people it helps for me to try to keep that perspective that that everything ultimately is okay. But you know, the drama, I think, was for some at some level, we’d like to drum I guess we must because we come here and do it right? So what would you say? What is what is the purpose? Why do we come here and do this

Unknown Speaker 42:18

Suzanne Giesemann 42:20
spirit, God consciousness awareness is already whole and complete. But it’s so full and overflowing with potential. It’s basically people says it’s to get to know itself better. No, it’s completed, knows itself intimately. So it decides to know itself as something other than itself. So it becomes limited and finite in billions of expressions for the experience of being something other than holding complete. And through making choices. We get to experience completeness, fullness, joy, beauty, creativity, and something other than that, and it’s so painful at times we say, Ah, yes, but I know what it feels like to be complete. So I’m just gonna keep following that nudge back to completeness. So it’s for the experience of all of it. The Good, the Bad, the not so good. Not so bad, the whole palette, because it is school, we are here to learn lessons, but it’s more like art school, how to make something more beautiful out of the beauty that you already are.

Brian Smith 43:33
Huh, wow, that was a appreciate that. That’s a great way of putting it. So sometimes people I don’t know how you feel about soul planning. So I will ask you, how do you feel about so planning? Because when I talk to parents when they hear soul planning and be like, I would never plan this? Why? Why would I do this to myself?

Suzanne Giesemann 43:54
I can understand that. Trust me. Oh, yeah, I know, moments where I say let me off the planet, you know, and those other moments where you just know I am in this world, but not of it. I’ve asked my guides about soul planning and they’re absolutely roles we agreed to take on milestones we agreed to to achieve exit points, sometimes multiple when we can leave because you will have learned a certain amount. But within that there’s there is some sway because we have that free will get too far off the path and you will get nudged back. Other than that, I don’t want to get into that too deeply because it’s still going to be a story. And if I tell you I won’t know ultimate truth till I get to the other side. Yeah,

Brian Smith 44:47
yeah. Well, I was looking for your opinion. It’s something that comes up a lot. And it’s interesting because some people say yeah, and I know I know people that are very well versed in the afterlife and they’re like absolutely public. And I know other people say, Well, no, it’s all about freewill. My personal thing is I don’t think we know I think it’s, it’s somehow both and in our human minds can understand how it can be both at the same at the same time.

Suzanne Giesemann 45:12
That’s like, both human and soul at the same time. It’s not either or.

Brian Smith 45:16
Yeah. So I think, yeah, I tell people, I was talking with someone yesterday, and they were just like, I just can’t accept this. And I said, then fine. Don’t if it. If it doesn’t help you, then then don’t but what we can though is that we are ultimately going to be okay. And that and that it’s assistance. It’s temporary thing, right?

Suzanne Giesemann 45:37
How about we we are okay, right now beneath the layers of gunk that just needs to be excavated? Yeah, we are. Okay, now, it’s in there that help you through this time.

Brian Smith 45:53
I’ve alluded to scenario a couple of times, and people may not know, because I was so nice was tell us who are what’s deniers.

Suzanne Giesemann 46:00
They’re my guides who laughed at me when I said, there’s no such thing as spirit guides. I was stealing commander mode. And they’ve just proven themselves to me with evidence over and over and over again. And these daily messages that come through, and I sit to meditate each morning, thousands of people read them now Brian, and, and it’s what compels me to keep going because they touch people at a heart level. And they keep us balanced and centered. But the evidence comes in beautiful ways. Like, they’ll give me a morning message. And they’ll they’ll start by talking about puppies, and then make a metaphor about puppies in life. And then I find out later, it’s national puppy day, that kind of evidence, it’s just magical. And it started well over a decade ago are thousands of them on my website, we you can find it easily by going to daily weigh.org or on my Facebook page and sign up to get them by email. But one thing that guys have said over and over is that we get so caught up in our human roles and the drama, we’re here for the experience. But it’s really great to read something uplifting, something that helps us bring our soul awareness to front and center. So these daily were messages and there are many other things we can be reading as well are just a way to do that to not get so caught up in the drama that we think this human life is all there is.

Brian Smith 47:27
Yeah, I think I think it’s this it’s all about balance. As you said earlier, we have to be we have to be both we have to be in use in the world, but not of it. And so I know your backgrounds, not really in religious stuff. But my background is very religious. So I quote Jesus all the time. And being in the world, but not of it keeps coming back to me over and over again. And when I’m when I’m talking to people, I’m like, okay, we have to be part of the human story. The human story does make a difference. You know, we do feel real pain and everything. But we are at the same time this this magnificent being that’s that everything is all well, and we have to we don’t want to get so lofty that we can’t function here. Because I’ve heard people say that they’ve had spiritual transform experiences where they lost their ego, and they’re like, I couldn’t do anything. Like I couldn’t go to work, I couldn’t do anything. On the other hand, we don’t want to get really too bogged down. He does something like sinaia to me on a daily basis, you know, really helps me to say, Okay, yeah, I’m going to be okay, I need to go out and still do my thing during the day, I’ve got to go through all the stuff we have to go through as human beings. And I was talking with someone just earlier today, we were saying, you know, because we’re both, we’re both followers of you. And we were saying how, you know, we were looking forward to going home, but we’re enjoying being here, but at the same time.

Suzanne Giesemann 48:39
That’s wonderful. And that’s that’s the whole goal to enjoy the experience during the good times. And during the times that aren’t so good. Just recognize that isn’t experienced, and this too shall pass. I wanted to say that. So Naya is the name that this group of guides gave me when they first came through in 2009 or 10. And I looked up the name and it it means eminent distinguished and of the gods it means one worth knowing. But it was years later Brian I found out it also means flash of lightning, which is how Susan was killed. And so it’s a group of higher beings, they they change sometimes there’s a different voice speaking like a literary voice, sometimes philosophical, sometimes scientific, but they know what they’re doing far better than I did.

Brian Smith 49:31
Yeah, well, I’ve known you for a while and I remember when I met you, you were starting to channels and I have publicly you’ve only done it a couple of times I think before that and I got a site for me it was really interesting experience because you said you know I don’t I didn’t know if you’re into this stuff or not. And that was a little bit beyond my comfort zone. But I’ve seen evidence since then. That it’s definitely absolutely for real.

Suzanne Giesemann 49:54
Oh yeah. I love when the guys come in. They’re like, I don’t know Is she memorizing all those words? And then we take questions from the audience. And the answers are immediate, they’re fluent, they’re clear. They’re lengthy. And it’s just no denying that’s not coming from this one.

Brian Smith 50:10
Yeah. So um, Suzanne, you’re everybody wants to get a reading with you. And I know you’re, you’re, I think you’re taking wedding lists anymore at this time.

Suzanne Giesemann 50:19
I know that, because we just got it down to under 800. From the thousands.

Brian Smith 50:23
Yeah, well, you know, it, you’re, like I said, I said, when I talked about, you always assume everybody knows who you are. Because I know that you’re, you’re definitely one of the best mediums in the world in terms of your messaging and the evidence and everything else that you do. But I know you give of yourself in a lot of other ways with your radio program, and your and your, what you’re doing with this shift network. And so tell people other ways that they could reach you, besides just getting a reading with you?

Suzanne Giesemann 50:50
Well, that’s the thing, Brian, it’s kind of the old, give a man a fish or teach a man to fish, I can’t, I can’t deny the impact of a reading. And I love doing them. And I will continue to do them. But I can reach far more people and help them help themselves by teaching you how to connect yourself. So I do that in a variety of ways. First, I have my radio show, just to give us hope that’s a weekly thing. And then I have monthly mentoring sessions, which people happily find very valuable because I keep doing them. And what that is, is the freshest teaching from the guides over the past month, they’ve never failed me two solid hours of what the guides want us to know about connecting about mediumship about our lives about raising consciousness. So those are monthly mentoring. And then I have this three courses with the shift network two are already done. I have a new one starting in December with a big launching event for that I believe sometime in November, if you’re on my email list, you’ll find out about it or Brian can tell you about his email list. And then what else I have online classes I have meditation, CDs, lots of free gifts on my website, Suzanne giesemann comm slash gifts, and probably 100 YouTube videos, and just so many tools to help you connect yourself. You never know if you can be a medium for other people till you try. If you haven’t been seeing spirits your whole life, I’m the living proof of that. So it’s it’s fun to open ourselves to new experiences. And most of all, the greatest gift I can give everybody, besides showing that their loved ones are still here is showing how much love is inside you right now. This is just an awesome journey to be on with all of you.

Brian Smith 52:33
Yeah, it’s, um, I just said, you know, getting to know you over the years and watching as how you’ve developed your, your integrity, your professionalism. It’s just it’s really, it touches people, which is why everybody wants to wants to get a reading with you. So people always ask me, like, Who’s the best beating me and I’m like, Well, you can’t get a reading with theirs. Tell me Give me somebody, let me give you somebody else. But there are other ways that people can can learn from you and experience you know, what you’ve experienced. And and your story is just your story, not who you are. But your story is really, you know, inspiration, I think, for people that are skeptical and say, you know, this stuff is all woowoo and you know, your naval commander background that that gives you credibility. So

Suzanne Giesemann 53:17
well, you know, the greatest thing for me is the joy of doing readings when when these wows come through and I’ll say, Oh, that’s a wow. And I still do I get so excited with something fun happens. And I remember this one guy who came with his wife, and they each got a rating separately. And he came in I said, so how do you feel about mediumship? And he says, Well, I’m kind of on the fence about it. I sent all right. And all this stuff came through and including his brother who showed me a special knife that he still had from his brother. He showed me his brother was really angry. So it wasn’t just oh, here’s your brother who loves you. He was an angry man. And then in comes this guy’s friend I said your your friends show me you guys used to smoke these funny little cigarettes. And he said how you doing bro? And he also tells me you actually have Native American background and the guy’s eyes are just wide like this. And when the reading was over, I said so how do you feel about mediumship now and he says I gotta tell you I’m not on the fence anymore. It’s like yeah, spirit did that they got another convert there to the fact that we are not alone. I just want to tell everybody talk to your loved ones Brian the thing that I’m not satisfied unless I get in every reading is current events. What is your level and just done recently? What’s going on in their life now to show they’re here with you like your daughter tells me You’ve just spilled a glass of water and you were wiping it up right before the reading or your your husband tells me you have a tooth that’s missing right here. Yeah, just fill out these kinds of things like, like Lynette is, is moving a zipper up and down. These are common events of the Spirit. See, because they are part of our lives. They are right here.

Brian Smith 55:04
Yeah. And I’m glad you said that because my daughter, you and Shana seem to have a special relationship with Shayna. We’ll drop it on you and you can’t buy our house like it’s about a year ago. And you were telling us things that we were we were doing that day or a couple days before. And Shayna will tell you things that are happening in our lives. Or, you know, I remember one time you said something about Kayla was playing with the basketball. And I was like, well, Suzanne’s got that wrong, because Kayla won’t touch a basketball. My daughter hates any kind of sports. And we called her and said, you know, would you play with the basketball that maybe your boyfriend Did you know, they were playing the basketball or something. And she’s been playing with one little girl she was watching. And they were making balls out of playdough and pretending they were bouncing them like basketballs. So I would when you said that I was like, there’s no way that That’s right. So and I could tell I could go on and on with stories just between between your yourself and myself. But I say this to the audience to be open and to look for look for signs and and and they’re just incredible things. And I had a friend once she asked me she’s a she’s a I guess you’d call herself an atheist. Maybe she called herself agnostic, but she didn’t believe in mediumship at all. But she was open minded. She said, Tell me the best medium, you know, Brian, because I want to get a reading from the best medium that you know, I don’t believe this is gonna work. I’m not going to tell her any information. But I’m gonna I’m gonna check it out for myself. And I gave her the name of a friend of mine. And she called me back later on. She said, she blew me away she made she converted me she and so I was like, I was so glad now she’s she’s a believer. I’ve had her on my show. She’s like, yeah, I’ll tell everybody about this woman because she told me things she couldn’t possibly know.

Suzanne Giesemann 56:39
Yeah, that’s what it’s all about. Yeah. And spirit will pull out all the stops to let us know this one. When, when it serves the greater good. I have one woman I was getting next to nothing. And I feel this woman’s grandmother here with me. But just it was like pulling teeth. And I said, I’m sorry. It’s just not flowing. And the woman said, dog going at this happens every time. I mean, I feel my grandmother around me, but I

just can’t believe she’s here.

Yeah, you know, grandma had to hold back because that was this woman’s life lesson to open up to trust them believe our beliefs are so important. Yeah.

Brian Smith 57:22
Yeah, that’s good. That’s good to know. That’s, that’s, I think that’s important for all of us. And so I want to encourage people to set to, to stay open to look for the evidence to look for the signs. You know, if you if you begin about getting medium reading, find, find a good medium, find a recommendation. It can and it can change your life. I’ve seen it change people’s lives.

Suzanne Giesemann 57:43
Like the woman who, whose son came through and said, Mom, you don’t need those meds anymore. And I said, check with your doctor if he can go off this medication. But she was so transformed by that reading. She went back to work and her colleagues said, What meds are you on? You’re so happy all of a sudden she said, My son is my meds. Yeah. That’s it. She found out he’s still around. And

that’s what we need to know.

Brian Smith 58:11
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Suzanne, I really appreciate you doing this. I know how crazy busy you are. So I appreciate you fitting this in your schedule. As always good talking to you. So I’m

Suzanne Giesemann 58:20
up and I’d rather do Brian and let people know how real this is.

Brian Smith 58:25
Yeah. All right. Well, you have a good weekend. You too. All right. Talk to you later. Bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Zee’s mother passed on after a 7 year battle with cancer. Zee found herself with a grief that was so consuming it ended up manifesting physically in her body.

Zee had to find her own unique way to cope with her grief because what others suggested didn’t work for her. She eventually developed her own regimen that includes weightlifting and dance.

Zee is part of the Speaking Grief project, a documentary film, and more to help people speak about their grief. You can find them at:

ℹ️ https://www.speakinggrief.org




Brian Smith 0:00
Hey everybody, this is Brian back with another episode of grief to growth. And today I’ve got with me, z Walters, and we’re going to talk about Z’s journey to where she is today. She She is a history teacher at chaffey College. And Z’s mother died after seven year battle with breast cancer. And z got involved with a project called speaking grief in the past year. And she’s been talking about her experience with grief, and specifically how her grief manifests physically. And how the turn to weightlifting overcome that. So z is a teacher at chaffey College, and we’re going to talk about her journey. So I want to welcome z to grief to growth.

Zee Wolters 0:37
Hi, Brian. Thank you. And thank you for having me on your show. I appreciate it. Yeah, it’s really it’s great to meet you and get to know more about your story. We all go through grief differently. It all hits us all differently. we all deal with it differently. And it sounds like you found a quite an I don’t say unusual, but an interesting way of approaching dealing with degree but first, tell me about your mother and tell me what happened with with your mother. Right. So my mom was diagnosed with stage four breast cancer.

It was pretty much my first semester of grad school, actually. So I was in my kind of mid 20s. And I was now you know, working full time. I just started a full time grad program and now caretaking on top of that. And we were you know, and we’re small family. It was you know, just me my sister, my dad, my mom and my husband in this country.

My mom’s family was is still all in England. So it was you know, it became kind of the major focus of my life at that time. And we were fortunate that, you know, my dad is a doctor and was able to get her really good treatment. And she had a really good quality of life for as long as as possible. You know, her thing was always, you know, she didn’t want to be bedridden, she didn’t want to not be able to do things. And honestly that that kind of last few months of her life where she she did ended up, you know, not fully bedridden, but it was getting there. And I think she was just, you know, ready to say goodbye at that point.

Unknown Speaker 2:32
So, yeah.

Zee Wolters 2:34
Um, but yeah, you know, I think just to kind of, you know, my whole life from when we heard her diagnosis was really about, you know, making all of my decisions based around that so that I would make the most of the time I had with her and that I would have as few regrets as as possible. So really, everything that I did was okay, do you know if I don’t go over to mom’s house today? Will I regret it later? You know, if I don’t bring her dinner today? Will I regret it later? If I don’t call her right now? Will I regret it later? And so every decision I made had had that part to it.

Brian Smith 3:13
Yeah. It just becomes all consuming when someone’s going through like that. Something like that. Yeah. So your mother, it sounds like she was fairly comfortable up until up until the end. And were you able to be with her when she transitioned? or?

Zee Wolters 3:27
Yeah, we were we were in the hospital. She she was having a procedure to drain some of the fluid from the lungs and she had a Do Not Resuscitate. Honestly, it happened in December, and she always seemed to get a little worse in the fall winter periods. And then she seemed to be a little bit better in the spring and summer months. And so she had been admitted into the hospital. And honestly, like, we knew it was bad, but we were really expecting her to come home like my sister and I we cleaned up, you know, cleaned up her room put flowers in it at home, because we knew that she was going to you know, probably not be able to leave her room very much. So we decorated her room really nice, you know, got her some new books did it all nice. And we we were really expecting. You know, okay, it’s a bad turn, but she’ll be home in a few days.

Unknown Speaker 4:29

Zee Wolters 4:31
my dad, we’ve gone we’ve kind of been staying there alternatively. And we’d gone home that evening, my dad stayed at the hospital with us and then we got the phone call first thing in the morning, you know, come now. And I think my mom was just kind of that day was just waiting for us to show up at the hospital and they they did the procedure We were just right outside the door, actually, they had a curtain, and we were just standing right outside. And she didn’t make it.

Brian Smith 5:07
Yeah, sorry. So, um, obviously losing a loved one, someone’s close as your mother. And if you were a caretaker and everything, this does hit you really hard. So what was the grief, like in those early stages,

Zee Wolters 5:20
um, you know, it was, it was kind of a weird experience, because being Muslim, the burial has to be done immediately. As long as that’s possible, you know, if there’s, there’s no reason to do an autopsy or anything like that, you have to have the burial immediately. And then you do a memorial service 40 days later, and my mom just wanted a quiet family only a burial that way. And then to have the big memorial service, that way her family could come for the memorial service. So it was it was pretty, you know, right after there was there was all kinds of things that we had to do to get everything organized. And then even with that kind of 40 days, it was a lot of you know, okay, we got to get, you know, the mom to come, we’ve got to, you know, figure out who’s talking or to the food get. And so it was with everything going on, and I was still in grad school. And I actually like, you know, filled out some grant applications and you know, did some other stuff. And I was like, Oh, you know, I can continue continue going on. Like, I don’t need to take a leave of absence like this is you know, and then it was really kind of after the memorial service, when things kind of started to die down. And then by that time, you know, not as many people, you know, everybody sent the flowers, they’ve sent the cards they’ve called. And so then it’s just kind of quiet. And that I feel like is when it really hit it was just like, oh, like, I really can’t do anything now. Yeah,

Brian Smith 6:59
that’s a very common experience. I think that there’s there’s first few days weeks, we’re in due mode, right? So we have to kind of shut down our emotions, and we’re, we’re busy doing and people are coming and going. So we don’t really have time to go within. And then it’s it’s that six weeks or so afterwards, that when we find ourselves alone, and we start reflecting on what we’re feeling.

Zee Wolters 7:22
Yeah, yeah, it’s it. You know, I think that’s there was there was a lot of, you know, mental distractions. right then. And then all of a sudden, they weren’t there. The people weren’t there. And so all you have is time to think.

Brian Smith 7:37
Yeah. How did how did that feel for you? I know, you said that you you were unable to speak your grief, I guess at first.

Zee Wolters 7:44
Yeah, it was it was really hard. And it wasn’t like a denial type of situation where it was in denial that anything had happened. It was just it was so emotional, that I didn’t know how to put it into words. And I didn’t know how to really describe anything and i’m not i’m not normally you know, normally a very emotional person anyway, so I think that kind of sort of added to it. I did you know, definitely on the caretaking side, my sister did a lot of the, you know, more emotional type of work with my mom, I did more of that. Like, okay, you need grocery shopping you need you know, I’ll cook you dinner I’ll do so we kind of divided the caretaking stuff along those lines and what what worked to our strengths. Right. And yeah, so yeah, I had a really hard time like describing anything and so it was really all kept internal. And I think I was you know, just kind of reading articles on the internet I came across a Huffington Post article by Megan from refuge in grief and come down at the bottom it said she she had a phone console a free like half hour phone consultation. I was like, Well, why Why not? I’ll give it a give it a try. And I really enjoyed talking with her. And you know, she was really good about just letting the silence be and you know, just letting me say whatever came up, and she was starting this writing course, the write your grief course. And so I said, Okay, all you know, maybe writing will, will help. And I took the course a few times. And it did it did help me kind of put some work even though I couldn’t verbalize them. It did help me express some of the things and you know, each time I went through it, I kind of you know, new emotions or new new things kind of came up for me. So that was kind of a good, a good starting point for me to start somewhat processing.

Brian Smith 9:58
So yeah, sorry. expressing some of that. Getting in. Yeah. So but you mentioned that you were unable to really speak your grief, and it started to manifest physically. So how did that happen?

Zee Wolters 10:09
Yeah, and I think so I think a lot of it was, you know, even though I could write stuff, I still felt and I did, like, start a little bit on, you know, posting a few things on social media, but that was, you know, also very kind of anxiety ridden for me. I wasn’t used to, you know, kind of putting myself out there for that. But I was still having a hard time, you know, kind of communicating. And there was a lot of anger as well, you know, I was kind of keeping that. And it would be, you know, stuff that I, you know, when I even knew then that it would be irrational, you know, like, I get, you know, super angry, it was Mother’s Day, and you get emails of, you know, from various, you know, corporations like, oh, by mom flowers, or by mom this or make reservation. And, you know, I’m unsubscribing, and I’m sitting there, you know, oh, some of us don’t have moms like, this is very

Unknown Speaker 11:03
inappropriate emails.

Brian Smith 11:05
Yeah, but you know, that that anger is very, very natural that we go through that. And when, as you were saying, that reminded me of someone that I knew a while ago that on Mother’s Day, you know, she didn’t have a mother, and she would get angry at everybody that did. So that’s, I think that’s a common thing. And when we’re going through grief, we don’t realize it, because we know it’s not rational, but we still have it.

Zee Wolters 11:26
Right, exactly. So it was kind of this, this thing where it’s like, I don’t want to talk about it to people because I’m like, Okay, well, this this, I mean, I know that it sounds irrational, I know that it sounds crazy. And, you know, being fairly young, you know, I didn’t have friends that had lost parents, or were, you know, most of them hadn’t even lost grandparents. Yeah. So you know, it, I realized, like, well, I can’t say this to people, because it’s insensitive. And so I kept a lot of that in, and, you know, keeping all of that in, and it just kind of, you know, built up. And since I wasn’t processing it, and I was having a hard time even processing it mentally, because people would say things like, or Eric read articles, oh, you know, go for walks, do yoga, all of this. And the problem with that, for me is going on walks meant that my brain was free to think. And doing yoga meant that my brain was free to think so all of these activities that people were recommending, I was like, well, but then my brain is free to just kind of obsess over things. And so there were two things that would really happen. One is that anger, and I would obsess over the anger over and I’d rethink things and rethink things and create scenarios in my head and build things up to be bigger than they were, and I’d get, and it would build that anger. And I would kind of feed off of it. And I knew that this was not a healthy thing to do, I just couldn’t stop myself from doing it. And I think you know, that brought a lot of, you know, you’re holding all that tension, that anger in your body. And then the other thing that happened for a little over a year after my mom died, was that I would see her in the hospital bed dead. So like, when, when my brain wasn’t distracted, I’d get that visual image again. So then, it was hard to sleep, because now my brain is, you know, relaxed, and it’s like, Okay, and then those images would come in and saying, you know, I did do a little bit of walking, but I’d always listen to like audio books, and there was always something like, I had to have the TV on or I had to have an audio book on just to kind of keep my brain from thinking

Brian Smith 13:53
yeah, from going from going back to the trauma. Yeah, that’s, that’s something that happens to a lot of people as well we kind of get stuck in the loop. And our brain wants to go back to that worst moment in time and just relive it over and over again.

Zee Wolters 14:07
Yeah, and change the scenario slightly and, and so so yeah, so everything I was, you know, reading about this kind of self care what to do. It was all things that were more more peaceful and you know, and but the problem was is that that just wasn’t working for me and I

Brian Smith 14:29
think that’s a that’s a really really good point because I I encourage people to try to get exercise and for me, I like walking in it some people like yoga and stuff but for some people it’s like you said that leaves your brain to freeze we all have to find what works for us. But before we get to how you what was working for you, so you mentioned it was meant it was manifesting with you physically How was it physically manifesting with you,

Zee Wolters 14:52
um, I was getting so I mean, I think some of it is is pretty, you know, traditional with stress, you get a lot of it. You No kind of your neck and back areas, and then I was getting a lot of really bad migraines. And they were the kind of migraines that you almost feel like that there’s like shooting pain

into your temple or into your eyes. And,

and I and then I could just feel it kind of traveling down my back. And I did actually, uh, you know, I went to the doctor, and I was like, I’m pretty sure this is grief related. But you know, let’s just maybe run some tests and make sure there’s not something actually wrong, because I was getting them every single day. And then, you know, I had taking medication for it, I was like, Well, I don’t want to be, you know, taking medication every single day, but I was getting these migraines, and it was like, no matter what I did, you know, changing the lighting, doing less computer work, or any of these things, it just wasn’t solving, solving that problem there. And it was just my whole body started to just ache. And and yeah, and I did read a kind of an article about back then about holding grief in your hips and how, because I was I was feeling it, you know, not just in the back area. But you know, my hips were achy. And I saw this article, and I can’t remember exactly where the article article was. But I remember reading that I’m like, Oh, yeah, like that, you know, maybe that that’s part of it.

Brian Smith 16:38
It’s, it’s interesting how grief manifests so differently for different people. And and for some people, it’s they eat too much, or they eat too little, or they sleep too much, or they sleep too little or, and so it’s really hard when you’re going through it to figure out, like what’s going on with me? what’s what’s really wrong with me, especially when the physical things start to happen. Because a lot of times we don’t think of that mind body connection, that when our mind is that, is that right? It can actually manifest through our body, which is what you were experiencing.

Zee Wolters 17:07
Yeah. And it was the same. I’m definitely an emotional eater. So I definitely ate a lot and gained quite a bit of weight. But it was one of the things that was interesting. It wasn’t just emotional eating, but my mom died on a Thursday in the morning. And I found that Thursdays, I just I couldn’t do anything. I was eating like an entire bag of chips before noon you like do and it didn’t actually dawn on me until months later. And I happened to mention it to somebody. I mean, I think it was like six months after my mom died. And I don’t know, I can’t remember quite the conversation that was happening. But the person asked, and they were like, what day did your mom die? And I was like, Oh, it was a Thursday. And it was like my body knew. But my mind hadn’t really figured it out. But my body knew that. Like, I had had this trauma on a Thursday morning. And it was trying to like, comfort me, in a way. Yeah. And granted, not the best way. But But you know, my but I hadn’t put two and two together until somebody actually asked that. And so and I was like, Oh, I did. And you know, it not so much anymore. But every once in a while I kind of get that, like feeling of dread. Or you know, I’m just like, Oh, I really you know, I need something or you know, I can’t wake up in the morning. I can’t get going. And it’ll still take me a bit while and I’ll be like, Oh, it’s a Thursday. It’s like, I wonder if this is like, you know, I don’t mentally feel like I wasn’t mentally thinking about it. But

Brian Smith 18:49
yeah, not consciously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it’s amazing how powerful the subconscious says. So how did you discover you discovered weightlifting, as something that was therapeutic for you? How did you find that?

Zee Wolters 19:02
Um, so I always done, you know, a lot of physical activity. And then after my mom died, I did. I think it was maybe a year later, I did get a gym membership. But I was just kind of, you know, just going through the motions, not really following, you know, a strict program or anything like that. And it was actually route probably around this time. You know, her birthday was was just last week. And so it was about this time of year. And I was finally like, you know what, I’m in so much pain that I actually I need to do something about this. And I you know, I think some of it was that

Unknown Speaker 19:47
I couldn’t deal

Zee Wolters 19:48
with everything emotionally or mentally that my body just said, you’re in pain, and you don’t you’re not realizing how much pain you’re in. So we’re going to show you How much pain you’re in? Yeah. And so I went to the doctor made sure that there wasn’t anything, you know, major going on. And then I was like, Okay, well, I, I started, you know, I did some, like therapeutic massages to kind of help with the tension and the knots and everything I did some acupuncture to, to help with that. And, you know, my doctor, he was like, Yeah, you’ve gained weight, but you know, it’s not anything serious, but maybe would help you to just get a little bit more exercise. So I signed up with a trainer at the gym, they were doing this, you know, New Year, you know, 12 week program thing. So I figured, okay, you know that that’ll give me a goal and something to work for. And again, I wasn’t really concerned about losing weight, it was more about just feeling a little bit better. And I found that the weight like one, I really loved it. And to it, you know, I think some of it was, because it was so strenuous. And then there’s also that a lot of the counting

Unknown Speaker 21:13
that goes, you know,

Zee Wolters 21:15
that it distracted my brain in a way that like the yoga or the walking didn’t. And so, it did take a while but you know, after a month or so I was actually like, Oh, I am actually feeling better. After like, I’m actually feeling a little happier. And I’m feeling a little bit more alert. And, and it was, you know, it was like, I want this to continue. And you know, and I did kind of recognize, like, Oh, this is an exercise that my brain is focused on my actual body. And it’s not, you know, traveling elsewhere. It’s not thinking about my mom. So now I’ve got this one hour, where all of those things that were causing, you know, a lot of grief and pain and reliving all of those situations. It’s gone for an hour. And I can focus on something else. And so I think that was, you know, and it kind of goes back at you really have to find what works for you. Because, you know, nothing that I had read nobody that I talked to you had ever said, Oh, try weightlifting. You know, it was always like, cardio, or yoga or meditation or walking. And none of that was working. So

Brian Smith 22:33
yeah, grief is unique. And everybody, everybody is different. And so when when we recommend, for example, meditation to some people, they’re like, well, I can’t meditate, because as soon as I close my eyes, I go right back to the trauma. Yeah. So for you, it apparently was a distraction. It’s also some good things that happen to our body when we lift weights in terms of releasing endorphins and stuff like that.

Zee Wolters 22:54
Exactly. And I think, you know, it did kind of move into where I could actually do proper self care. Because, you know, as I was kind of feeling better, and feeling healthier, you know, moving and actually getting some exercise. And then, you know, before I was doing a lot of emotional eating, and you know, I was definitely thinking, well, this is self care, like this is how I process. But the problem was, is that I wasn’t kind of intentionally doing it, right. Whereas now I can be like, Well, yeah, I’m, you know, it’s my mom’s birthday, I know, like, I’m going to have a lot of grief. And you know what, I’m gonna make myself this nice meal, or I’m going to get some cookies, or I’m going to order a pizza. And I’m going to sit down. And I’m going to think about my mom. And so now, I feel like, I’m still using food, but I’m using it in more of an intentional way. And so it really now is a self care habit, instead of before where I was just mindlessly eating and telling myself afterwards, well, this is self care, this is how you’re going to feel better. This is what makes you feel better. This is what you need right now. And there wasn’t a whole lot of that intention. So then it wasn’t doing what I was telling myself that it was going to do.

Brian Smith 24:13
That’s that’s a great observation. And if you like that all the time, and also makes you feel terrible, you know, we’d like to do that every once in a while, but we don’t want to we don’t want to be doing that every day.

Zee Wolters 24:23
Right? Yeah. So so that was you know, and you know, now I do kind of plan things out. I’m like, Okay, I’m going to do a really good work. You know, it’s my mom’s birthday, I do a really good workout in the morning, and then I can relax in the evening, you know, and have whatever it is, it’s going to make me feel, you know, good. And I and then there’s not that guilt that comes later where you beat yourself up for it like, Oh, I shouldn’t have done that. Or Oh, that didn’t actually make me feel good. And, you know, because before I was kind of getting into that spiral, oh, this didn’t make me feel good. Now I’m having another bad day. Now I’m going to, you know, do the same thing and hope for something, you know, hope for a different result. Oh, that didn’t work? Well, I’ll try it again. And you know, and then a week goes by, and you’re just like, well, now I’ve just done these really destructive habits for an entire week. And

Brian Smith 25:15
that’s a good point. Because it’s easy to get on a kind of a downward spiral, right? If we’re not, if we’re not getting any exercise, it actually makes us feel more sluggish. And then we don’t feel like exercising and then we’re eating the proper foods word. So we start gaining weight into it. We have to you have to do something to break that cycle, which, for you is weightlifting. In terms of your weightlifting, I get the feeling this is more than just going to the gym a couple times a week and lifting a little bit of weight.

Zee Wolters 25:42
Yeah, so I actually, so I, so I did the kind of 12 week program. And then I was just like, well, let’s, let’s continue, let’s let’s see what else like what can I do with this. And so I still have the same trainer, I did some power lifting for a while and got pretty, pretty intense with that. And right now, I train about heavy weightlifting about four times a week with COVID and everything. And being here in California, you know, set up a home gym, in my garage, but yeah, so you know, I do pretty heavy training four times a week. And, and kind of put a goal out there, you know, maybe do a competition bodybuilding competition sometime next year, when, hopefully, things are opening up a little bit more. So it’s kind of my, my, I’d kind of avoided it for, for a lot of people can say, Oh, you should you should do a competition. And I was like, no, no. And I’m like, wow, you know what, maybe, maybe I will so. So that’s kind of my my goal right now.

Brian Smith 27:01
So you started weightlifting? When did you start weightlifting? Actually.

Zee Wolters 27:05
Um, so I’ve done a little bit before, but I think it was 2017 is when I got really 2000 I think maybe the end of 2016 2017 is when I got really, really into it. So it did take you know, a couple years after my mom died to really reach that point where I was like, Okay, I mean, and I’d kind of been trying things and just kind of been like, Okay, well, you know, see what sticks, you know,

I actually found also that knitting.

Again, I think it was the counting, you have to count the stitches and whatnot. So it kind of once I got the hang of knitting and I wasn’t you know, screaming at the yarn and you know, breaking the the needles and stuff because they weren’t doing

Unknown Speaker 28:01
what they were supposed to.

Zee Wolters 28:05
So there was a lot of anger and frustration in that. But I had read an article about knitting and grief. And I was like, Well, again, I’ll try anything. So I

Unknown Speaker 28:13

Brian Smith 28:14
it’s you’re making some really good points, we have to explore different things. So knitting, you might think, well, it’s kind of the opposite of weightlifting. But it is something it’s kind of something repetitive is something that we can concentrate on something that can kind of take us out of that conscious thought. And it’s kind of a meditative side type of thing.

Zee Wolters 28:31
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It’s, it’s a different form of meditation. But and, you know, I think the fact that you are also creating something was was helpful. I mean, I’m not sure if my friends and family appreciated all the like, lopsided scarves, they got that.

Unknown Speaker 28:49

Zee Wolters 28:51
But, you know, I think the fact that you can be like, I did something like I’m grieving, and I’m in this process, but I did something and I think the weightlifting kind of had the same thing. Because, you know, as you’re building the weight, and you’re lifting more weight, it’s like, oh, like, I’m doing something I’m improving. Like, I’m getting stronger, I can lift heavier weight. And so it’s, you know, one of those kind of, like, small milestones that you point to, like, Hey, I got out of bed, I took a shower, I made my bed. You know, I added five pounds to my squats, I you know, I made Christmas gifts this year. So they’re kind of little things that don’t necessarily directly focus on the grief, but I think they kind of help you for when you’re ready. Yeah. And I think that’s what it really was, is that by focusing on my physical body and making my physical body healthy, then I was like, Okay, now I’m actually ready to really look at my grief and to really process my emotions. Like I can handle it now. Yeah, you

Brian Smith 30:02
got your your mind back to being in a place where you could be strong enough to handle it. And you know, what I, when I work with people I talked, I talked about the early days, weeks, months, years, I call it like the white knuckle period, you’re just holding on, you’re just trying to survive moment to moment, you know, get out of bed function, you know, stuff like that. And then eventually get to the point where we say, Okay, now I want to start healing, you know, I want to I want to start feeling better. And that can be different for different people, some people, it’s six months, some people’s four years, some people, it’s, frankly, it’s never, some people just kind of stay in that mode. But you sounds like you got to the point where like, I’ve got to find something that works for me.

Zee Wolters 30:40
Yeah. And I think, you know, what we said is true, is that we kind of have to get to that point, almost on a on our own. And if somebody had said that to me, you know, six months after my mom died, I would be like, Yeah, no, like, you don’t understand, you don’t know what I’m going through. You can’t tell me what’s going to help me you know, you don’t you don’t know. And I would have been very defensive. And so it really did take getting to the point where I was, like, I am in so much pain that, you know, I can’t sleep I you know, I’m taking medication every day, I’m, you know, I can barely physically function. I have to do something. And it was almost, you know, I had gotten to the point where it was like, Yeah, like, I just can’t live like this anymore. And that’s what, you know, really kind of drove me to find something.

Brian Smith 31:38
Yeah. So how did you get involved with the speaking group project?

Zee Wolters 31:42
Right. So, um, it was kind of through the, you know, when I was doing the writing course, the refuge in grief, and I think it was about maybe a year or two after, you know, Megan was looking for someone to help her with the course, some of the administrative stuff. And I was, like, you know, what, this course did really help me. Kind of, even if I couldn’t verbalize it, it helped me put some of my thoughts into on paper. And so I really wanted to kind of help and, and, you know, give back in even a small way, so I started helping with the monthly writing course, just kind of helping people get, you know, get situated, you know, grief brain, when, you know, you’re in the midst of it, you can be you know, away, I’ve signed up for this course, how do I log in? How do I, you know, and just kind of, you know, helping people get through that. And she, when the documentary came up, she actually recommended me to the directors. And it was very, you know, I agreed to do it. And it was very nerve wracking. Because I’m not, I have, I don’t normally put I’m good kind of talking one on one and, you know, personal but kind of putting myself out there like, oh, social media, and, you know, on videos now on a podcast. This is this is definitely been kind of a challenge and putting, you know, moving myself out of my comfort zone there. But I think it was also really good. And I absolutely loved it. You know, the whole idea behind the speaking grief, documentary and the fact that they really built it up to be you know, it’s not just a documentary, we’re going to provide resources for people were going to, you know, put out a lot of material that people can use. And in doing that, I think is and then, as I kind of shared a lot of this on social media, I started hearing from people. And I mean, I keep my stuff pretty private, but just from like, my own social circle, I start hearing from people. Oh, you know, thanks. Thanks for sharing this, or thanks for putting this out. Like, you know, I’m sharing it with my friends, or I’m sharing it with somebody I know who’s who’s grieving, or you know, as time went on, I actually started to know more people who have who have lost loved ones. And I didn’t know they’d never talked about it. And so when I put you know, I started sharing a lot of the the speaking grief, the clips or their, their social media and whatnot. And I started hearing from people acquaintances, oh, yeah, I lost my dad or my brother, and thank you for sharing this. And I was like, Oh, I had no idea. I no idea that you were going through any of that. So I think that has has really been kind of an eye opener for me on like, how much people are going through that we don’t share. And

Brian Smith 34:58
that’s a really good point, too. May, we don’t know what other people are going through. And until a lot of times into whether we take the initiative and give them permission to speak their grief, people just hold it inside and you realize that does that doesn’t work, it’s going to grief is going to manifest one way or the others, it’s going to come through you. And we can, we can try to hold on to it. But really, it’s really grief is something that has to be processed, we’ve got to go through it. So it’s great to see resources. And we should probably tell people that may not know the speaking grief, as a documentary, but it’s also a list of resources. And you can find it speaking grief.org and it’s great to see this, this coming out where people are able to start talking about this because our society, it’s very hidden, and it’s almost something some people’s envious shamed of.

Zee Wolters 35:47
Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, the, the film did a really good job of showing grief in a number of different aspects, how it impacts different people, different relationships, and you know, that that is one thing, you know, when I sent it to people, you know, they were just like, Oh, we love that it touches on all of these aspects. And I was, I was really proud of the way that they they put it together. It was it was kind of hard. And I know that when it first came out, they they sent me the link to watch it. And I was kind of like, Oh, I don’t I don’t know, like, I was really kind of nervous. And I’m friends with a few people that that had also participated in it. And they started sending me messages. Oh, it’s really good, like, and your parts really good. And I was like, Oh, really? And they’re like, you haven’t washed it. I was like, No, not yet. Um, so it was kind of one of those situations where, you know, I’m sort of like, hiding under a blanket, on the sofa watching it. But I was, I was really, I was really happy with how they did it, and, and all that, you know, all the different types of grief and emotions and feelings and how people deal with it and process with it. And I think, you know, a lot of the, the material that they have on, you know, on the website, and everything is really good, too. You know, how to talk to people or, you know, how to how to how to be a good friend, how, because sometimes, you know, a lot of people say, Oh, well, I didn’t contact you, because I didn’t know what to say. And honestly, like I had some friends that they would literally do that. I don’t they don’t text me. I don’t know what to say I’m just here. And that was honestly the best thing. It’s just like, you don’t need to say anything, just say that you don’t know what to say. Like, that’s, that’s okay. Because, you know, most of us don’t know what to say. So,

Brian Smith 37:55
yeah, even after going through, you know, what I’ve gone through and working with people that I work with, there is no magic bullet, you know, there’s, there’s no one thing to say, Well, I was talking to a mother a couple nights ago, and her brother in law just lost his son. And she was asking a group of us. So what what things can I do to help him like right now what things they do to kind of fix him like, right now we’re like, there are no magic bullets. It’s early stage means you said we kinda have to get to a point on our own, when we’re ready to start taking the steps out of it. And up until that time, it’s just kind of hanging on.

Zee Wolters 38:27
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, everybody is is different, like, what works for one person, you know, you could say something to one friend, and it’s great. You say it to another friend. And they’re gonna, you know, yeah, go crazy over it. So, you know, it’s just really about I think, also just being, you know, compassionate and realizing, like, hey, like, I, you know, yeah, this worked for this friend, but it didn’t work for this friend. And hey, you know, I’m really sorry, I said that and just kind of accepting that, like, they’re not really mad at you, per se. It’s just, you know, you triggered them in a way and, yeah, it’s gonna, you know, and again, it’s one of those things that I feel like, when I was, you know, right in the middle of my grief, it was again, it was one of those things like, Okay, I know, they don’t mean it, but I’m just really mad. And whereas now that I’m, you know, a few years out of that, you know, I’m, I’m a lot more understanding of that. But, um, yeah, you know, when somebody will even tell me would be like, Oh, well, they don’t really mean it that way. Like,

well, as I said it,

and you know, it just I wasn’t ready to hear.

Brian Smith 39:42
Yeah, well, yeah, that’s another really great point that you brought up this these things that can trigger us and I’ve been talking to people and they’ll say that I can’t believe this person said this to me, you know, and they just they’re so upset and and I understand that but I’m like, what, but they’re they mean, the best You know, when people are saying these things was the mean the best but sometimes it’s Just triggers.

Zee Wolters 40:01
Yeah, yeah. And people’s triggers are different. And sometimes you don’t even know your triggers, right? I mean, I didn’t, you know, there was a lot of things where I was just like, oh, wow, like, I am really angry over this. And it was a complete surprise like that, you know, there were some things that I could get. Oh, yeah, like, something like, this would definitely make me angry. But yeah, there would be something that I would just completely collapse over. And I was like, Oh, I was that came out of nowhere. I was not expecting that. And, you know, I think that even now that that still, that still happens, aware, you know, everything’s fine. And then all of a sudden, like, somebody pulls out like a photo album. And you know, there’s a picture of my mom, and I’m just like, Oh, I was not prepared for that right now. And for some reason, it just hits hard. But it you know, if it had happened a week later, it might not have hit that hard. And it would be like, Oh, yay, there’s a picture of my mom, that’s like, so awesome. But, you know, it just kind of depends on what’s going on that day or that week. And, you know, something can be a trigger one week, that’s not a trigger the next week. And so, you know, I think that’s, it’s really hard. And it’s hard for people to, you know, who maybe haven’t gone through grief, or that have gone through it, that you know, what works for them, and then not realize that, hey, this doesn’t work for everyone. So I think, you know, the more we talk about it, the more we can have compassion for different people’s paths, different people’s ways of coping.

Brian Smith 41:37
Yeah. So it sounds like you say in the, in the, in the film documentary, they do talk about people do different approaches, which I think is a wonderful thing. Because as we said, It’s everybody’s different. And actually, every grief circumstance is different. When you when your mother passes, you have a different relationship with her than you have with, you know, a spouse or child or grandmother or a friend. So we sometimes go through these different great things were like, well, this is really different than, you know, when the other person passed away. But it’s a different relationship. It’s all unique.

Zee Wolters 42:08
Right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. So you know, I think, I think that yeah, I think the more that we talk about that, the more we can just, you know, have empathy for people and to just really be understanding, and I think, you know, the more we can do that it’ll, you know, hopefully, help people, you know, move with their grief, and not kind of remain really stuck in that first. emotions, first experiences of it, because I know, you know, in that first, first year, I definitely felt like, Oh, I’m gonna be like this forever, like, this is, you know, and it’s so strong. And this is my grief. And, you know, it was almost like, you know, like, nobody can take this away from me, like, my mom’s gone. But I have this grief. And, you know, it’s but definitely looking back, you’re just like, Well, yeah, I don’t want to stay in that place, forever. But it is, it is hard to, to kind of, I think, move, move forward. Because sometimes, you know, that that’s what you have, and you don’t have your person anymore. But you have this grief. So yeah, you want you really want to hold hold on to that, because that’s what you can hold on to.

Brian Smith 43:25
That’s another really important point. And I know, I went through that when my daughter passed, you know, you feel like you just said it perfectly. I don’t have this person anymore, but I have my grief. So people hold on to a degree of like, it’s a like, it’s a comfortable, a comfort blanket, you know, it’s like something that we just, we hold on to, and we wrap ourselves up in it. And we say I’m gonna, I’m gonna feel this way for the rest of my life, because I really love this person. Therefore, I need to feel this way. Because otherwise I’m kind of letting them go. And that’s, that’s a, that’s early phase that we go through, but it’s not necessarily it doesn’t have to be true. And you figured out it wasn’t. So how would you compare yourself now, seven years later, the person that you are to the person that you were, before your mother transitioned?

Zee Wolters 44:11
Um, I would say, you know, in some aspects, I feel like I’m, I’ve kind of gotten back to being me, in a sense, because, you know, definitely, sort of during the years when she was sick, I did put some stuff on on hold, and then a lot of you even if I wasn’t putting on hold, it was always framed within the context of her illness.

Unknown Speaker 44:40
Um, and,

Zee Wolters 44:44
you know, after after she, she passed that, you know, there was definitely, that, that kind of holding on, I don’t want to change anything in my life. Because, you know, as soon as I start changing, you know, now I’ve got a life that she wouldn’t recognize. So you know, that was kind of another hard thing to kind of go through is like, Oh, I’m making changes, and I’m moving forward. And I’m doing things I’m doing powerlifting. And that was something that I never did before. So my mom wouldn’t even be aware, like, this wasn’t something that I had done previously that I was like, Oh, I’m going back to it. This is like something completely new. And it’s like, oh, now I’ve got this new thing in my life, that she has no idea that that was going to be important to me. Um, so that was really, that was really hard. But I would say that, I think last last year was really the first year where I was like, You know what, I’m actually I’m feeling good about myself. I’m feeling I’m excited about life, I’m excited about doing new things. There wasn’t as much. There was still sadness, but I felt like the excitement about doing new things in my life was greater than the sadness of the fact that my mom wasn’t there to see it. So it’s still there. It’s just the balance is, is different. And so yeah, I think, you know, last year was the first time that that I really felt that and I really felt excited to try new things and excited to do new things, and to really kind of put myself out there in in ways that I hadn’t before. And, you know, this this year has definitely been a little different, you know, with with COVID and everything.

Brian Smith 46:43
for everyone. Yeah.

Zee Wolters 46:45
Yeah. So, you know, I was kind of surprised last week on how hard her birthday was for me. And I was kind of like, well, and it was weird, cuz I’m like, I don’t know why exactly. It was so hard, is it because, you know, everything in the world right now is kind of crazy and stress inducing. So it just amplifies the emotion or if it’s the fact that, you know, I have been talking a lot more openly about my grief through the speaking grief documentary, I had scheduled this podcast with you. So you know, I was I knew that this was coming up. And you know, I’ve been posting a lot more on social media about it, and definitely promoting a lot of these things on social media. And I was like, Is that why it feels?

You know, stronger, but I did, you know,

her birthday was on on Friday. And again, it happened on Thursday. I’m sitting there. And it’s, you know, kind of early in the morning, and you know, I’m munching on like potato chips. And I’m like, Yeah, I don’t feel good. And then you’re halfway through the day. I’m just like, it’s Thursday. Like, Oh, well, that makes sense.

Brian Smith 47:58
Yeah. Recognizing it. That’s great. Yeah. So um, I know you’re taking out you’ve taken up something else, you’ve taken up aerial dance. And yes, working on a piece with that.

Zee Wolters 48:10
Yes. So my sister actually owns a circus Performing Arts studio, the stage global in a kind of close by, by us in Pomona, California. And she was fortunate enough, she went virtual when all of this happened. So she was able to keep her business going. And normally, we do shows, and so this year, because we can’t do live shows, we’re doing a virtual show. And I did kind of I took up the aerial rope. So I’ve been learning to do to do that. And this year that the show that we’re doing, it’s she’s calling it mementos. And it’s about kind of, what kind of things do we want almost like a time capsule of 2020? What do we want to kind of remember or put in this or commemorate. And I, you know, since I am a historian, and I did kind of figure since while I was teaching certain histories where I was like, well, since we’re going through a pandemic, you know, maybe I should teach a little bit more about pandemics throughout history and plagues throughout history and do a little bit more of that. And so when this show came up, I was kind of thinking about what I wanted to do. And I’d been reading more on the dance mccobb and the Black Death in the medieval period. And this kind of idea of, you know, it’s a plague and, you know, it’s also this kind of joyful dance and death is kind of bringing everyone together and kind of this equalizer here and I was just like, well, this kind of cover You know, similar things, what we’re living through right now. And

it’s a historical

event, poem and artwork. And so I’m kind of doing a artistic visual representation of the dance mccobb. So I’m currently working on the, we’ve done a little bit on the choreography for that this week. And I’m going to kind of finalize that next week. So I’m pretty excited about it. I think Shannon

Brian Smith 50:32
mentioned, you mentioned death there. You mentioned, I think you mentioned joy or something, bringing people together. So how do you feel about death at this point?

Unknown Speaker 50:40
Um, I mean, it’s still

Zee Wolters 50:45
it is, you know, I wouldn’t go, you know, definitely, like, in a kind of historical poem, you know, it’s, it’s all about, you know, it’s kind of this equalizer between the social classes and,

and all that.

And he, you know, it is still really hard for me, to really kind of be that accepting of it, like, I know that it happens, but it’s still kind of, you know, I still don’t want to think about it. And it’s still, you know, just too painful, because I have gone through it. And so even though I know, like, I’m going to go through it again, and again, and again, and you know, I’ve gone through it, you know, with numerous pets and stuff before this, but it’s just the amount of pain that it that it brings is

Unknown Speaker 51:43
really hard

Zee Wolters 51:46
to kind of see that sort of joy in it. And, or the celebration, and I know, like, there are cultures that do more of the like, joyful celebrations at funerals or memorials.

And, you know, on the one hand, I love that.

And on the other hand, I’m like, I don’t know how much I could actually do that. And maybe now I could, but I don’t you know, I don’t know, actually, even now, I don’t know that I could actually do like a super joyful thing.

For my mom without completely breaking down. Yeah.

And, and I would love to do it. But I feel like I almost you know, in doing this artistic piece, it’s almost a little bit removed. You know, okay, this is a way to experience that aspect. But not make it it’s almost not fully personal. Because, yeah, I think it would, it would still be just really too painful to try to do that on a personal level.

Brian Smith 52:54
Well, just my observation from having met you an hour ago. You know, I see joy coming through you, I’ve heard you describe the growth you’ve gone through over the last seven years, I see you working on this documentary, you’re doing great work by putting it out there for people, you know, you’re doing this podcast, you’re helping people. I see you taking this thing that happened to your mother and going through this process and saying, I wanna help other people go through this process. And that’s a you know, so you went from working on yourself, you know, working in your body and working with your nebbia and creating things to now actually going out and helping other people. And I think that is a process that we can go through with grief. And I, I call that like the final stage, where you get to the point where you’re like, Okay, I’ve worked on myself, I’m not, I’m not healed, we’re never fully healed, we’re always going to miss our loved ones, or you’re going to get a tear in your arm, you think about your mother, but you also smiled a lot of times when you mentioned your mother. But that step when you could say I can turn from how do I take care of myself to how do I take care of others? I think that’s the final the final stage of saying that this, this grief thing that I’ve gone through has brought something good about, and I hope you can see that.

Zee Wolters 54:12
Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, it is very, very hard to kind of process that, that, like this horrible thing happened, and it’s terrible. And I’ve also done something good with it. And it is, you know, I think it’s easier now to kind of mentally

conceptualize that because

definitely earlier, you know, it was like No, nothing, nothing good can ever happen from this, like Nothing good will ever come out of this. And and I think it’s that balance of saying, you know, you didn’t need this to happen to do something good. But you were is able to, to make something good. And I think that’s the difference is that sometimes, you know, people look at it, or they might say, Oh, you needed this to move forward. It’s like, No, I didn’t need it to move forward. But I definitely used it in a way to help other people. And, you know, that again, helps me. So

Brian Smith 55:24
yeah, and I think this is another really good point, because we can look at it either way, in this choice, you know, I happen to believe everything in our life is planned. And that and that we plan it ourselves, actually. That’s the way I look at it. And that helps gives helps me to find meaning and purpose and things. But if you don’t choose it, look at it that way, the event happened either way. You know, your mother, your mother passed, my daughter passed, it’s already happened. So what am I going to do with it? And that’s, that’s the question that we all have to face, no matter what our beliefs are, about why it happened, if it had to happen, it did happen. And what do we do with it? And you, you’re a shining example of, you know, going through the process and finding your own path, you know, because no one can tell us how to do it. No one can say, Okay, well walk five miles a day, and then you’ll be okay. In a year, you know, it’s like, no, for you is weightlifting, for me, then I wouldn’t be I wouldn’t probably work for me. Right. So, yeah, I really appreciate you sharing your story, and promoting the project speaking grief speaking group.org. And we encourage people to look that up, because it sounds like a wonderful resource for people. And to tell people you know, you know, find your own way, and maybe it’s lifting weights, maybe try that, if nothing else is working.

Zee Wolters 56:42
Right. Yeah, if you’ve tried others, you know, and I think that’s the, you know, the best thing is just keep trying stuff, because eventually, you know, and, again, with me, I mean, it took years to find, you know, took like 334 years to actually find something that worked. But I think you know, and even you know, when I was, you know, really in the deep of it, and just really, you know, in the worst stage, mentally, you’re you still I think, as people, we still kind of want to do something or to try something. And I think, you know, that’s the best thing is just just keep trying, and it’s perfectly okay, if something doesn’t work. And I think you know, like, we can’t beat ourselves, hey, I tried this, and it did not work for me. And that’s, that’s okay, that it’s nothing I need to feel guilty about. It’s, you know, and then as you know, supporters, it’s, you know, we shouldn’t make people feel guilty about that, or, you know, oh, you should try this. Yeah, I tried that. It didn’t work. Oh, no, but you did? Did you try it like this? Or do? And it’s like, you know, except that they tried it? And you know,

Unknown Speaker 57:48
make a new suggestion.

Brian Smith 57:49
Yeah, well, I just said that reminded me of, you know, I promote meditation a lot. And I was talking to another teacher, and she had, she had meditated for years. And she’s like, I’m done with meditation. And she’s like, I’m not promoting, but so we had a really, really nice conversation about whether people should meditate or not. And it’s not, it’s not for everybody the way that I do it. But we came to an agreement that mindfulness is important, but we don’t actually necessarily do forte, you know, I formal meditation. So, yeah, it’s, we’re all human beings are all unique. Every every relationship is different. Everything that we need is different. But what I get from you is like, the human spirit is just amazing. And I, but I will encourage people that are still going through those early phases, is to have faith in yourself, that you’ll get through it, and things will get better. Because I know at the very beginning, it feels like it’s never gonna happen. Yeah.

Zee Wolters 58:41
Yeah. I think that’s, that’s, that’s so true. You feel like it’s not going to happen. And if somebody tells you, oh, it’ll get better, you’re just like, No, it won’t end. And, you know, that’s, that’s, it’s okay to be there. You know, it’s, and eventually, you know, kind of, as you slowly you know, work towards different things, or try new things, you know, all of a sudden, you find, oh, yeah, it is feeling a little bit better. And I feel a little bit better, and that doesn’t diminish, and I think there was a point where I was just like, Oh, is it diminishing? My mom or my love for her or my memory of her? And and you do go through that? And you know, and eventually you get to a point where Oh, no, it’s not. It’s still sad. And there’s still a lot of pain there. But it doesn’t diminish any of the good things as well.

Brian Smith 59:34
Yeah, absolutely. Well, it’s been a pleasure meeting easy and having this conversation with you appreciate you doing this and putting yourself out there to help other people with the project and when we’re doing doing the promotion doing the podcast here today, and I wish you luck with your with your dance routine. I’m sure it’s gonna be great.

Zee Wolters 59:55
Thank you. I appreciate it. And thank you for having me me on here. I do. appreciate having the opportunity to share this a little bit more with people.

Brian Smith 1:00:03
All right, well, you enjoy the rest of your day. Thanks you too.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai