Beth Cavenaugh RN, BSN is a certified hospice and palliative care nurse, Reiki practitioner, writer, and educator. Sliding into her 25th year as a nurse, Beth has spent the last 15 caring for hospice patients. Beth writes about end-of-life matters and published Some Light at the End, Your Bedside Guide to Peaceful Palliative and Hospice Care.

  • Some of the topics we covered in this conversation includethe challenges of taking care of a hospice patient
    can people be more accepting of death?
    the regret people can feel after taking care of their loved one
    how people die and the varied ways and timeline that people die.
    what to expect at the end of life
    how to Manage Anxiety for the Hospice Patient and the Caregiver
    how to take care of yourself when you are taking care of a hospice patient

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Brian Smith 0:00
Close your eyes and imagine what are the things in life that causes the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we’ve been buried, but what if, like a seed we’ve been planted and having been planted, to grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is grief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. Hey everybody, this is Brian Smith back with another episode of grief to growth and today I’ve got with me Beth Cavanaugh. As always, I’m gonna read Beth’s bio and introduce her and then we’re going to have a conversation. Beth is a certified Hospice and Palliative Care Nurse. She’s a Reiki practitioner. She’s a writer, and she’s an educator. She’s going into her 25th year as a nurse and she spent the last 15 years caring for hospice patients. Beth writes about end of life matters and published a book some light at the end, your bedside guide a peaceful palliative and hospice care. So with that, I want to introduce Beth Cavanaugh. Hi, Brian, thanks for having me today. Yeah, thanks for being here. I’m really looking forward to talking to you. I’m always fascinated by people that go into the field of palliative care. And I know what type of nurse were you before you went into this field and then what made you decide to go into palliative care.

Beth 1:35
Um, I think I was just kind of a regular nurse, you know, when you’re when you start out, you kind of go wherever you can get a job, I worked in internal medicine for a while I worked at an AIDS hospice for a while I worked at, in a nursing home for three weeks, person short stay surgery. And after, you know, I was raising kids at the time. So after about a decade of nursing, I took a break, I wanted to just kind of pause because I thought, you know, short stay surgery was the the people were amazing, the schedule was amazing. But I wasn’t feeling fulfilled as a nurse. And I think I just had a little more space in my life to kind of look for something that was maybe a little more fulfilling to me. And, and so I took about nine months off, and I just hung out with my kids, my family and and really kind of explored what would feel meaningful to me. When I worked at the AIDS hospice, I just was there for about a year and a half. But that that had a profound impact on me just being able to show up and be present for people at the end of life. And my mom died in 1998. So in those first two years of being a nurse, my mom had died. And I was able to be with her and experience hospice care. And I took care of her at the end of her life. And so I found this really sweet hospice home here in Portland and, and started to work there. And that’s when I felt like I had kind of landed professionally.

Brian Smith 3:13
Interesting. So and that’s when you decide you’re just going to go into palliative care like full time.

Beth 3:18
Well, I guess so. I mean, I think I never really like make a decision to Oh, this is going to be my life’s work. But I definitely felt like I was going to stay. And it felt really good every day that I showed up. And it felt very meaningful. I didn’t realize with hospice care, there’s you take care of the family, as well as the patient and I loved that I loved, you know, there were 50% of my patient and my time, and I loved educating them. And I loved to be able to because it was in a hospice home, I was actually able to be present for the deaths of my patients. A lot of times Hospice is in a patient’s home. So you’re not as a nurse, you’re not necessarily there when they die. So it felt like it was a really special place in general, and a spiritual place. And it felt very sacred and holy to me. And so I just, I kind of kept kept at it.

Brian Smith 4:20
Yeah. So what are some of the challenges of taking care of a hospice patient? You mentioned one thing that most of us don’t realize is you spend a lot of your time with the family. Mm hmm. So what are some of the other challenges?

Beth 4:34
Well, I think that let’s see. You know, a lot of times when people come on to hospice, they’re not exactly ready to die. So so there’s a lot of emotional work that you have to kind of sit with the patients and help them process the end of their life and, and maybe do some life review or just checking in with them as they go through their their anger. Oh, You know, relationship issues. So, it hospice care is the emotional, spiritual and physical care of a patient. So it’s very holistic. And life brings up all of those issues, you know, you have all these physical things going on. But you also have, you know, how do I want to exit this earth? How do I want to leave the planet behind? How do I want to, you know, tidy up my business with my family and my friends. So, it’s challenging, but it’s also, you know, also the beauty in it, like, as you say, every challenging moment has opportunities for beauty and growth. And so I love being in that space with people, but it is, I’m not a social worker, I’m not a trained, you know, Counselor. But as an as a nurse, you just show up for these moments, you happen to be there at the bedside, when they’re kind of going, what is happening to me, I’m 50, I just climbed Mount Hood, you know, six months ago, and here, I am dying, and you just have to kind of be present for them. And, you know, I mean, I can’t help them work through their stuff, but I can bear witness to their suffering that they’re going through.

Brian Smith 6:15
Yeah, I think that’s one of the things I’ve learned a little bit about hospice work. And as you said, you can’t really offer certain types of help, I guess. So what’s the line of for you? How much help you can offer someone that says, like, what’s going on with me? Or I’m scared?

Beth 6:32
Well, I think that the, the best advice I received from another nurse was, sometimes you don’t have to have answers, and silence is okay. And that really freed me up enormously to just be with people, and sit in that comfortable silence that most of us hate anyway, the seven second pause, and allow them the space to be there or just, you know, give them that sounds shitty, I’m so sorry. This sounds terrible. I can’t I can’t imagine what you’re going through. But, but not leaving the room and staying in the room? And you know, because a lot of people don’t want to be in that really uncomfortable spot.

Brian Smith 7:19
Did you find our Do you find people accepting other deaths generally, or people? Are they fearful? Or what? What’s the range of emotions that you see?

Beth 7:32
Yeah, um, I see. There’s a wide variety of emotions there is there’s fear, there’s anger, there’s desperation, there’s depression, there’s flatness, there is, you know, I would say maybe 10%. This is according to Beth Cavanaugh statistics are, are joyful about it, you know, and that’s generally somebody who has is, you know, in their 90s isn’t has lived a very full life and is very supported, and their symptoms are managed, and maybe they have kind of this vision of the afterlife and what’s coming next. But, but I think, and I think most people get to this point of acceptance. And, and it’s really, sometimes it feels like resignation. But I do think there’s this acceptance and this relief that can happen for most patients. And I think when people get to that point, it’s it’s a relief for them, it may not be a relief for the family, because that’s, that’s a, that’s a entirely, you know, different perspective and issue that’s going on, because a lot of times, families are well, always families are going through their own personal emotions around their loved one dying. So I do think that I’ve definitely seen acceptance happen and and that is just part of the beauty of why I like to be there because I do think hospice gives people an opportunity to really process you know, the end of their life and, and find some peace and acceptance. We also have social workers on our team. We have chaplains on our team, we have amazing aides on our team and volunteers. So so there’s this team of people, that is all, you know, we all have the same goal in mind, which is to support this patient as they’re dying to keep them comfortable and to allow them the opportunity to process the end of their life.

Brian Smith 9:49
Yeah, so you touched on something there, you know, as we were saying, there’s the patient and how they’re viewing their passing and then there’s the family how they’re viewing it. So it’s Are there ways that you can help families become more accepting of the demise of their loved one?

Beth 10:07
Yeah, I mean, in theory, yes, there are, I think everybody’s very different in terms of their acceptance of death. Like my dad, when my mom was dying, I was very, I was acutely aware the whole time that she, her prognosis was not good with lung cancer. And so from the start of her diagnosis, I was kind of anticipating that she was going to die. And so that was, but I’m also very, like, I’m a nurse, so I’m kind of realistic to a fault. And my dad, his whole goal was to keep her alive to keep her well to heal her to feed her, you know, so, he and he never, I really don’t think he ever accepted that she was gonna die, ever, you know, until afterwards, and even even then it’s difficult to accept. I think that I mean, my thing with families is to be have kind of a gentle but transparent offering, really to talk about, you know, continue to talk about the importance of this time. And, you know, to talk about what what does this patient need at this time, I think you can talk about death and dying. You know, a lot of people don’t like the words death and dying, but you can say, you know, what would your grandma want right now, at this time? Is it important for her to have a religious ritual? Is it important for her should we call it her sister that she keeps talking about, and maybe she can talk to her on the phone. So I, I’m constantly trying to just plant the seed like that, this is the time, this is the only time that we can really give the patient what they need at the end of their lives, so they can die more peacefully, ideally. And a lot of times, you have to be pretty subtle about it. Because like I said, a lot of people don’t like talking about death or dying. And, and they don’t want to hear those words. And you know, a lot of people don’t believe a lot of people don’t believe that their loved one is actually going to die. I mean, like I said, my dad, he was totally surprised. I was actually surprised when my mom died. I’ve been with my patients who’ve been on hospice for years or months. And when they die, I’m still surprised, you know, there is this element of surprise, like, Oh, my gosh, I can’t believe they just died right now. And so yeah, I think that I think it’s just continuing to offer some transparent but gentle information, that they have opportunities for closure and to express their love to their loved one.

Brian Smith 12:51
Yeah, yeah. I wanted to ask you this, you know, we have this idea that death should be easy and peaceful. And then sometimes it is, what what about when it’s not? When it’s not peaceful? And it’s not easy. The patient might be scared, they’re resistant? What What would you offer to a patient? And what would you offer to a family going through that?

Beth 13:15
Yeah, um, you know, I’ve definitely been around plenty of not peaceful deaths. And so I guess that with that, I just want to say that it’s common, I think, for people who are grieving a loved one, you know, there’s a sense of, of maybe guilt or concern over how it went down. And they think maybe it could have been better, maybe they could have done something different. But, but I’m here to say that sometimes deaths aren’t peaceful, and sometimes they’re not as beautiful as you want them to be. And sometimes patients might be in pain. I mean, we as hospice team, we try it as hard as we can to get symptoms manage. But, you know, death happens, kind of as it happens, and with all the medical intervention that there can possibly be, and a lot of times patients are in their home. So, you know, it’s not like they have all the medical intervention that we can possibly give to them. So sometimes it’s just not as pretty or peaceful as we all want it to be. And

Unknown Speaker 14:24
when it’s not,

Beth 14:27
I mean, for for patients, I think we’re constantly you know, if they have physical symptoms, that that is kind of a constant thing that is you need to titrate medications for pain management and you need to titrate medications, for shortness of breath. So you’re kind of constantly trying to alleviate these physical symptoms that they’re having. A lot of times patients will have this existential suffering, which you know, is that I don’t want to die. You know, I don’t ever want to die. I’m not willing And then there’s this just suffering element that is going on while people are dying. And a lot of times, you can’t medicate that away, I mean, you can try. And there’s certainly tools that we have, but sometimes you can’t. And I think if you again, show up for them, and just try to be present to it, and call on your hospice team for any medical guidance that they can give, you know, that that’s the best support we can offer. And then for the family, I think just realizing that sometimes it’s not peaceful, and it’s not beautiful, so that people don’t kick themselves after they’ve died to think that maybe they could have done something differently. Because sometimes you just can’t. Yeah, I do think that if you contact the hospice, and really, you know, have them come over and help as much as they can, you know, then at least, we can try our best to medicate and, you know, get them comfy.

Brian Smith 16:01
Yeah, I actually have a friend that just went through this with with her mother, and she had had her mother in her home. And she, she was claiming to live for literally years, they thought they were she was about the past, and, but she just, you know, kept hanging around. And, you know, I my friend was like, I thought this was supposed to be peaceful. You know, I thought that was supposed to be beautiful. And I think sometimes we have that expectation. And then there’s the guilt that we weren’t able to make it that way. And also, another thing I’ve seen is people feeling like, I need to keep this person in my home, you know, and running themselves ragged trying to keep them in their home. What would you as a as a hospice professional say to someone going through that decision as to when do I let go of trying to do everything?

Beth 16:52
Well, we need as you know, we can’t do everything, it’s impossible, or we just, you know, burnout. And I think that you know, Hospice is a beautiful system, but it’s also an imperfect system. A lot of times patients, there aren’t many other opportunities for them to stay anywhere else other than their home. It You know, a lot of this is like insurance driven and financially driven. And so you know, you have to do out of pocket cost if you go somewhere like a nursing home or facility. And, or you can have caregivers come into your home, which you know, is expensive, but my thing is always Oh my God, if you can afford it, bring caregivers into your home to help you out. Because a lot of people, most people do not like changing diapers, adult diapers, that’s a really, it’s a really hard thing to do. And with family and family dynamics, and how that goes, you know, that’s not, that’s not the kind of relationship most people have with their mother or their father. So I think you can’t do it all. I think if you have the financial means to get caregivers to come in periodically throughout the day or throughout the week, just to alleviate some of the burden or call in the troops, you know, calling other family members calling friends to help out. So I think some oftentimes hospice care is in the home, I think that if it’s in, but if people have the opportunity to go into a hospice home, I mean, I, I work at a hospice home now. And I love working at an inpatient unit, because I feel like as soon as they come through the doors, that family is just so relieved, you know, because it’s been so hard, like you’re saying to take care of their loved one at home, because, you know, PS, their loved one is also the family who’s taking care of the patient who’s dying, that family member is totally going through their own grief. They’re doing all this physical care and, and labor of their loved one, which is the most meaningful gift you can give to somebody, but it is also exhausting. So, you know, it is just kind of a delicate dance. And I think that if somebody has the opportunity to go into hospice home, and the family is all agreeable, and they’ve checked it out. I think it’s a great option because people who are in the hospice homes are trained in end of life care and pain and symptom management. And, you know, and and there’s the team of support people that can support the patient and the family while they’re in there with their loved one. So,

Brian Smith 19:33
yeah, and, you know, there obviously, are financial considerations, but I’ve seen people it’s like a guilt thing. You know, it’s like, well, she’s my mother. She took care of me when I was a baby. So now I need to take care of her, you know, something like that. And then, but I would point out to like, Okay, well, they have three shifts of nurses when they’re in a full facility, and you’re just one person. So even if you are a nurse, you couldn’t do Yeah,

Beth 20:00
you can’t I mean, you just simply cannot take care of somebody 24 seven without losing your mind or hurting your back. I mean, yeah, like I said, there’s a ton of labor involved. So I think that, you know, one of my, when I was thinking about being on your podcast, I and people who are grieving their loved one, one of my missions I was feeling very strongly about is to alleviate people of their guilt burden that they feel because it is, you can be a much better daughter, when you have somebody else who’s showering your mom and bathing your mom. And you can just show up for your mom and not worry about the medication stuff or, you know, changing her diaper or administering suppositories. So I just think to, it’s hard to stay in the daughter lane, when you also have to, you know, shower your mom and change your linens. But I think if you have the opportunity, boy, I say do it right away. And you know, most people sign up very late for hospice. So I think that I heard I’m terrible with statistics I heard recently, the average length of stay was about 20 days. But so most people sign up for hospice late. And, and most people don’t realize that, it’s probably not going to be that long of a time. So the sooner you can get caregivers in, just try it, you know, for that first week. And a lot of times, the patient will decline over the next three weeks. And, you know, you will have been able to be with your mom and a really supportive way, not physically exhausted, you’ll be able to remember, you’ll be able to think of all the things you want to tell her and and you can have, you know, some other caregivers in there to do some of that physical labor.

Brian Smith 21:52
Yeah, I think that’s really important. And I’m glad that we touched on that, because that’s one of the big things I like to do also is alleviate people from this guilt that we seem to heap on ourselves, and expect ourselves to be, you know, Superman, you know, and be able to do everything. And I like what you just said, you know, this, this frees you up to do other things that are more beneficial and not, you know, tear down your own health while you’re supposedly trying to help someone else. In a situation that’s impossible for you to really handle on your own.

Beth 22:23
Right, right. And I see a lot of 80 year old, you know, men taking care of their eight year old wives. And I just feel so sad for them. Because it’s, like I said, it’s a lot of labor. And it’s a lot of work. And usually 80 year olds have their own health conditions going on. And they are physically exhausted, too. So I think that if you can have anybody else come in to help do it and do it sooner than later.

Brian Smith 22:49
Yeah, one of the questions and we kind of touched on this before, but I want to go back to it, you know, I think we have this Hollywood image of how people are supposed to die, or how people die. So from your perspective, what what’s kind of the range of what you’ve seen from people going through the process?

Beth 23:08
Um, well, I’ve seen it all. And I’ve seen people just kind of slipped away. So I could go a lot of different ways with this, but in terms of like, how death looks in general, definitely is very different for everybody. And I think I’ve seen a lot of people, you know, slip out of here really peacefully, subtly, gently, no symptoms, no physical symptoms, you know, family around you know, that that’s, that’s a beautiful death, when they’re the physical symptoms are being managed, they’re emotionally accepting or ready to die. And their family is supporting them and around them.

I’ve seen you know, the, one of the worst. Do you want me to talk about the worst? I don’t even know.

Brian Smith 24:10
You know, people need to know, what’s that range of normal?

Beth 24:13
Yeah, well, I mean, these are the, you know, best case scenario, worst case scenario, and I’ve seen somebody just really suffer on the way out and family was not on board. patient was miserable and in pain and died from probably an event a terminal event. So when I got there, you know, something had happened, maybe a pulmonary embolus or something like that which causes respiratory distress for people and, and he was agitated and trying to get out of the bed and back into bed and out of bed and back in the bed. And and we’ve, you know, I was giving him as much medication as I could, talking to the doctor the whole time. Trying to get the family like back in the room to realize that this patient was actually dying because it had happened. So suddenly, and, and then the patient finally settled in a family all gathered around. And it and I mean, we all saw, I did too, because it was, it was really awful. And, but I feel like, you know, in the end, you know, the family was there gathered around, and, and sobbing and they were together and this guy went with a fight, like the biggest fight I’ve ever seen. And you know, it was awful to witness. After that, I thought, God, do I need to go to like Calcutta and work in the streets of India, so I can get used to this, you know, like terrible stuff. And then I thought, No, no, like, it can be so much better. I know, it could be better. It’s just this is this is the anomaly. So sometimes patients die like that. Oftentimes, patients slip away, there’s this other kind of in between, like, gradual process where people kind of die kind of slowly over time, and hopefully you manage their symptoms, you’re kind of titrating their medications, so that their pain is managed, and, you know, they’re as comfortable as possible, they end up you know, sleeping more than they can’t get out of bed. And they continue to sleep more, and they die. And usually you can tell like hospice nurses, we can usually tell when patients are, I mean, in theory, about seven days away, and we can kind of just keep going, Okay, yeah, like they’re getting closer, they’re getting closer. So, it is different for everybody. I also want patients, family members to know that even though you know, we hospice nurses are like, okay, you know, they’re close, it’s gonna happen, we’re wrong all the time. Because death is this divine mystical event that happens. And even though we think we’re in control of a lot of things, we’re not in control of a lot of things. So I really believe that there’s just this bigger thing happening. And sometimes patients die suddenly, like I talked about that one gentleman, he had a terminal event, you know, I’ll be in with a patient. Maybe I’ll medicate him. Maybe he’s like doing the crossword puzzle. This has happened before. And I’ve come back and he had an event. And he’s actively dying. So and he died maybe an hour later. Sometimes patients are looking at me and and families leave the room to go to lunch. And they’ve been there holding vigil the whole time. Waiting for the patient to die, patient doesn’t die. As soon as they leave to lunch, the patient starts to actively die. I mean, it feels very directed. Yeah. So So there, there’s, you know, people, everybody wants to be there at the moment of death. But sometimes, it just with all of our medical technology, and me being a hospice nurse for 15 years, sometimes we cannot call it

Brian Smith 28:19
right. Well, and I think sometimes it’s because the patient calls it because they because I literally was talking to someone last week that their son was going through the dyeing process. And they were watching, they were setting a vigil and everything. And they’re waiting for that last breath waiting to see the last breath. And as soon as they left the room, he took his last breath. So apparently, it’s been your experience also.

Beth 28:41
Oh, yeah. I mean, and I’ve had patients who, it hasn’t happened that many times, but I have had patients who I’ve said, You are actively dying right now. And I would really like to call your family and they have shook their head. No, don’t call my family. Or I have said, Can I bring your family in the room? And they will shake their head and say no, or another patient? We said, we’ve called your wife she’s coming and he is, you know, shaking his head? No, like, I don’t want my family in the room. And I don’t know, if it’s a protective thing. You know, it’s likely that maybe it’s just last memories. Maybe it’s how they want to go. They don’t want people to be around them. You know, dying is a very it’s an individual sport. It is. You know, I mean, they are, we don’t know what it’s going to be like for us. I think I want my entire family around, but maybe I don’t want my entire family around. I won’t know until that happens.

Brian Smith 29:38
Yeah. And as you said, it’s I think it’s differed by for some people, I think it’s it’s a privacy thing. It’s like I want to do this alone from this has been, you know, relayed to me anyway. And I do I’m glad that we went through that because I want people to understand that there are different ranges of things that can happen. It’s not your fault if it wasn’t great. And the thing that I look at dying is kind of like birth. It’s a transition So the thing is when we’re born some births easy. Some births, like my daughter, Shayna is more, more complicated, more difficult. But either way we get there, you know, so when people when people are going, when they’re transitioning, they’re making the transition. And they’ve you know, so there shouldn’t be any regret, it shouldn’t be. It doesn’t help to have regrets about what you could or could or shouldn’t have done. At this point, the way I look at that the person is okay, you know, they’ve made it, they’ve made it through the process.

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Brian Smith 31:33
Have you experienced like people that are that are going through when they get close? Talking about visitors coming to see them better people that are deceased?

Beth 31:42
Mm hmm. Yeah, I love that. I mean, you know, these are all the things that keep me staying in hospice, because I really do appreciate and love this connection with the divine, which is what being being in end of life care really feels very connected to the divine, at least for me, it does and, and most hospice nurses and people work in hospice, they, they, that is a very satisfying and rich part of hospice. I have had, I’ve been in the room with Jesus, you know, so I was with a patient and, and she told me, you know, that Jesus was here, and he was giving her a final blessing. And, and, and the family was so happy to hear that story. You know, just, you know, those kinds of things really people hold on to and, and the patient who was dying, she had so much peace about her. I have been sitting next to another patient who was just sitting, sitting and chatting with her. And I said, you know, I’m gonna go check out another patient. Is there anything you need? And she said, Oh, no, my husband’s. He’s here. He’s, he’s sitting in that chair with you. So. So he was, you know, just right there the whole time. And he had died 10 years ago. And yeah, so I’ve definitely had a lot of experiences with people kind of see, you can tell they’re kind of in conversation with other beings in the room. And, you know, it doesn’t like I said, it doesn’t happen all the time for me, but I definitely have enough of those where it makes me feel like it’s very real. And this, this connection with spirit is very real. And it kind of drives my enthusiasm, I guess, for connecting with more divine elements of this end to life stuff.

Brian Smith 33:38
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I want to ask you, in your experience, because this is I’ve heard this that typically, it’s more nurses believe in the afterlife experience, and doctors tend to not is that been your experience working in hospice care?

Beth 33:54
Um, I don’t. You know, it’s so funny. Like, I don’t even know, I don’t know if I could. I don’t know if I’ve ever pulled my coworkers to find out what their beliefs are.

Brian Smith 34:07
So you guys don’t talk about it?

Beth 34:08
I think I do with some of our some nurses. Yeah, we do. Definitely. But I haven’t really talked to a bunch of physicians about it. So I should start doing that. I’d like that, I guess. I don’t know. I mean, I, I can’t imagine because I feel like the physicians are in this really amazing space. I would think that we all believe in something bigger. That’s a weird generalization to make, but it’s for me anyway, it’s really hard to be in healthcare and not think that there is something bigger out there. And we have to find meaning in our work. And it’s really hard to find meaning and suffering if you don’t feel like you know, this is just kind of our spiritual stretching as humans and you know, I just I feel like there’s so much about it. Healthcare that is very difficult to witness. But I think you have to have some Dr. Dominic vishawn, he wrote how doctors care. And he talks a lot about how it’s important to have some type of philosophy of care or spirituality of care, if you’re agnostic, or you know, whatever, but some kind of philosophy of care so that you can find meaning in the work that you do. Not even just hospice, but, you know, being a clinician of any kind in healthcare. So I think that I think to really have meaning in this work, you kind of have to dwell and ruminate on what what kind of gifts your patients are giving you. And, and, and what is next. And what is this all for? I mean, you can’t help but not think about that.

Brian Smith 35:55
Well, you One would think, but it’s not true. Right? Right. Right. Yeah. And the reason that it might be different in your experience, even because you’re in palliative care. So that’s a that’s a very deliberate thing to go into, and maybe the doctors to go into that maybe feel a little bit differently. But like, I think about Dr. Eben Alexander, who was a neurologist for, you know, so many years, and, you know, brain surgeon and just was a total materialist until he had his near death experience and wrote a couple of books about it. But he didn’t, he didn’t, he didn’t look at the other side. I mean, because doctors are trained to death as the enemy. We’re always fighting death. It’s all about keeping people here. So I was going to ask you this, and you already kind of answered it. Because I know people will probably say to you, well, isn’t it depressing being around dying people all the time? And but your your view of it’s different, right?

Beth 36:48
Yeah, I mean, I feel like it’s so rich and real. And I’m the type of person who like I’ve, I’ve never been good at, like, just chit chatting, and, you know, just talking about the weather, pop culture, I don’t even know anything that’s going on with pop culture. But I, I really like to go go deep with people and see how they’re really doing and what’s going on, and how’s them on yada, yada. So, um,

Unknown Speaker 37:15
what was your question? Wow,

Brian Smith 37:16
I was I was asking you about people would ask, I would think they would ask you, is it depressing being? Like, just around death? Isn’t that icky?

Beth 37:27
Well, it’s interesting, because the firt, after the first year of being in hospice, I definitely felt depressed. And I was reading in a palliative care textbook randomly, that there are the stages that people in hospice care go through. And after about nine months, people experienced depression. And, and I was kind of mad, because nobody had told me that this was going to be, you know, a possibility. And, and what it did for me was really go, Oh, I had to, then after it’s sorry, after the nine to 12 months, depression, then you get to this place over the next year. I can’t remember what it’s called. But it’s kind of being okay with, you know, this end of life event. And sorry, I’m not very articulate about it. But so I do think it can be very depressing. But I also think you have to kind of do a lot of work to get to this place of being okay with watching people suffering, bearing witness to their suffering, and not trying to fix a lot of their suffering. You know, like, as hospice nurses, we can try to fix their physical symptoms, but there’s a lot of suffering people just have to do on their own and on their own timeframe. So I don’t find hospice depressing. I find it very rich, and I find it, you know, full of life. I mean, our whole goal is to maximize the quality of their life, you know, not the quantity of their life. So I love being able to, you know, bring someone to Sunday, when you know, they’ve been diabetic their whole life, and that’s what they want to eat. You know, I, I love bringing quality of life, like, even if it’s, you know, having their grandmother or their grandbaby come in and visit them. I just feel like to have this moment in time where you actually do know that you’re gonna die. And to be intentional about it is kind of amazing. Really. Yeah. So it can be very relevant. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don’t find it depressing. And most hospice nurses, I would say have really they’re very fun to work with. Yeah. So yeah.

Brian Smith 39:41
Well, I think when people say something like it’s Don’t you find it depressing that that tells me something about their view of death. As I said, I view death as a transition. I view it. I’ve interviewed people and there’s just this term now. It’s relatively new. I guess it’s called Death doula. So you have a birth doula that brings back babies And these women, the columns are usually women, but people that call themselves as doulas, because they’re looking at it as a birthing into the next world. So they’re sitting with the patient, and they’re working, you know, helping them with their spiritual needs and helping the family and other things, you know, practical things, getting the wills together and stuff like that. But that’s why it’s not depressing, because there’s, there’s meaning in the work, and you’re helping someone if you believe there’s something else. It’s not you’re not watching people die, you’re watching people move on to the next thing.

Beth 40:31
Yeah, and, you know, I do feel like even for people who don’t feel like there’s an afterlife of some kind, it is still very gratifying to be able to comfort and support people, you know, and give them what they need at this final, their final moments. How are they view that? So even without I think, like a spiritual worldview of what’s beyond this, I think people can find it very satisfying to do this kind of work. And, you know, I think I was thinking about the depressing piece. And I think that most people have that, too. I think it’s because, you know, when they’ve lost a loved one, it’s it’s hard. I mean, going through that grief, as you know, is really a challenging, you know, talk about spiritual stretch. I mean, it’s tough. And, and I’ve taken care of family members and friends. And then hospice patients who I don’t know. And it is, it is very different when I am taking care of family or friend, because I feel I guess, I don’t know, if responsibility, but there’s the you know, there’s just kind of this added burden and kind of emotional, definitely emotional connection. I mean, it is, you know, I still get really sad like, I that will never go away for me, and I hope it never does, you know. So it’s a it’s it. It is very different when you’re taking care of your own family members.

Brian Smith 42:04
Yeah, it is. And you and you touched on something here that I think is really important, because I always I assume that not everybody believes in an afterlife. To me, it’s just it’s self evident. So I don’t, I don’t understand people that don’t. But even if you don’t, we know that when you’re born, you’re going to die, there’s 100% chance that you’re going to die. So there’s something about our society that just doesn’t want to accept that we want it we want to shut it away. We want to pretend it doesn’t happen. So whenever happens, people are surprised. You know, it just always amazes me. I’ll see some celebrity that just died at 99. And people are like, Oh, it’s so sad. Like, how is it sad when someone that’s 99 years old, I’m sorry. I don’t mean to be callous. But that’s not sad. For me. It’s it’s planets, it’s biologically planned. If you don’t believe anything else, that we can’t live forever. So the work that you do is extremely important. I want to ask you about your book, some light, some light at the end your bedside guide to peaceful palliative and hospice care. So first of all, who’s it for?

Beth 43:06
I actually wrote it to a terminally ill patient. So if a patient was diagnosed with a terminal illness and, and the physician may have said, Okay, now it’s the time for hospice, I basically wrote the book from this is the start of their diagnosis to the end of their life. And, and I write it specifically to the patient. And I’m not sure if that was a great marketing move. But but but you know, I didn’t know anything about book writing and book marketing or anything, you know, when I started this process years ago, but I, I, I write about hospice, what it is what it isn’t, I write about options that you have choosing not to have hospice or if you do choose hospice, you know, how you can choose a hospice. I talked about just what the end of life looks like when patients energy and mobility decline when their appetite declines. I talked about managing symptoms, shortness of breath, constipation, pain, anxiety, delirium, all those things. And I talk about the end stage of somebody dying, and I talk about care of the dying. So I wrote it for a patient with terminal illness, but I definitely you know, is thinking about the caregiver every step of the way, because, you know, so all of our work is patient and family centered. So, all of this I’m constantly thinking about family members who are taking care of a loved one, because that is generally how hospice care looks.

Brian Smith 44:39
Yeah, yeah. And a lot of times the the transition is more difficult on the family than it is on the on the patient. So it’s, I think it’s really good to have that, that support there for the family. At least, that’s been my experience in a lot of cases. And, you know, and kind of what to what to expect, you know, because, right again, we don’t we don’t know and We can, we can face things so much better if we have an idea, you know of what to expect. So it sounds like a great book for not only the person that’s gotten the diagnosis, but maybe for the person that’s, that’s going to be the caregiver caregiver going alongside them.

Beth 45:14
Yeah, I mean, that was definitely my intent because I, I’ve done home hospice before, and I’ve done inpatient hospice, and I, I’ve done triage. So I’ve kind of seen all sides of hospice nursing. And I feel like patients and families struggle with this process, because they don’t know what it’s going to look like. And, you know, it’s like anything, I mean, I had an appliance guy come over the other day, and he was helping me with the dishwasher. And he was explaining everything about my dishwasher. And, and, and I just thought, Oh, this is so nice to have somebody who knows about this stuff. I don’t want to I don’t want to learn about it. But I’m glad you go about it. So it’s, it’s just kind of like that, you just want somebody who can kind of guide you and support you along this process. And I really, you know, I saw so many patients and families struggle, and they always have the same questions for us, the hospice nurses, you know, and, you know, tell me about this medication, tell me why they’re constipated. You know, why are we increasing the pain medication. And so I really wanted to have just a really digestible, easy, gentle but transparent book about this process. So people can refer to it when, when they’re ready for the information. Because as you know, as I’m yammering on and on and on, you know, people’s eyes just glaze over, and they’re done after a certain amount of time. And then you you know, I mean, people don’t remember that much when they’re in the state of grief or crisis or anything. So I just wanted to help them to have something physical and tangible they could hold on to when they needed it.

Brian Smith 46:49
So what would you say are like the top two or three things that people need to know or might surprise people? Um,

Beth 47:01
well, I think that a lot of patients and families are kind of surprised, but just the decline that happens. And I think it could be so much easier on everybody, if we just knew that this was generally how it goes where people aren’t going to be, have as much energy as they used to have, and over time, it’s gonna decline. And then they won’t be able to actually walk around unless they have a walker, and then it’s a wheelchair, and then their bed bound. So through all of these stages, they’re going to need help, they’re going to need somebody with them, they’re going to need help off the toilet, then they’re going to need help getting their briefs changed in bed. So I just think if we could kind of anticipate that this is generally how it looks. It just minimizes all that surprise. You know, I, I mean, when I was taking care of my mom, I was surprised at every turn, and I had, I’m a nurse, I’m a hospice nurse, but you know, every all of that information kind of went out the window when I was taking care of my mom. Yeah. And so I think just and then there’s also the food thing. A lot of patients and families feel like, well, families feel like we’re starving patients, when we don’t feed them work. It’s very important to feed the patients, I’m a big fan of food, I’m a big fan of any kind of food, they want their favorite things, but at a certain time, you know, it becomes they lose their appetite. They don’t need as many calories as you are I do. They, you know, they just they can’t, it’s harder to swallow. So that you have to transition them to softer foods, foods that are easy to swallow. You, you know, I mean, it’s just kind of this ongoing thing, then you need like ice cream, or yogurt or applesauce, things that are really easy to swallow, and then they won’t be able to swallow anything. A lot of families really suffer because of this families. You know, our whole thing is to like feed our people, right? So. So you know, it’s a really hard thing to get on board with. I always say my dad, he was feeding mom steak and eggs until the day before she died, you know, and she just was like, please make him stop.

Brian Smith 49:20
Well, yeah, that’s that’s such a good point. Because in my family, my culture, it’s like, it’s all about food, you know, feeding people and stuff. And then, my friend I was talking about earlier going through this with her with her mother, her mother was like down to 90 pounds or less, was totally bedridden. And so she was drinking like maybe an insurance a day or something. And they’re like, weights and she’s starving. I’m like, how many calories Do you think she’s heard? Now, at that point, you know, just the input output. They’re not burning any calories. And there’s also seem to be a natural thing, I think with humans and with some animals. When we get near the end, they just stop eating.

Beth 49:57
No, that’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. And And I think that you know, a lot of a lot of families, when they use the word starving, I kind of go on high alert, because I don’t want, I don’t want families to feel that burden that they’re not giving their loved one what they need. Because there is this natural decline that’s happening in our body, this physical process where we don’t need to consume calories, the body is actually going through this process of dying, you know, and so like force, feeding force, fluids, all of that stuff, it’s actually it’s more harmful than beneficial at a certain point. So, I mean, we don’t we don’t recommend IV fluids, because it’s too hard on the kidneys. And, you know, it could go to places like the lungs or the feet and cause discomfort, or shortness of breath. So they’re really like you said, I mean, there really is this process of it’s not starvation, it’s just that they don’t have an appetite. And the body’s actually declining and, and dying. This is the work of dying, and they need food at this.

Brian Smith 50:59
I’m glad we discussed this because you know, it does. We’re so used to against feeding and water. And because it’s just the same life and we were I we’re not accepting the fact that life is, is ebbing here, it’s going away. And these things can actually be harmful, even though it seems cruel to say, at some point, I guess it’s like you were saying, and people don’t know this, at some point, we even stopped giving fluids, it’s like, we’re just going to, we’re just going to let them go.

Beth 51:26
And I think you can always do things like to, I mean, we always offer food. So we’ll bring in some yogurt and offer, you know, whatever they want, they might want to buy, they might want more than that. But always offer you know, if when it gets to this point where they’re really not wanting to eat much more than bites, just offering foods that they like ice cream, little tiny bites of things. You can always moisten their mouth so that they don’t you know, that minimize that feeling of thirst. moisten their mouth with swabs and stuff. So there’s things you can do to prevent any kind of discomfort, but an offering them things I think is really important. But there’s just a point where, you know, most people they don’t eat or drink anything before they’re dying.

Brian Smith 52:12
Yeah, well, that’s, that’s, I think, a really important point. And it’s one that I didn’t know, till pretty recently. So I’m glad that we were able to cover that for people. Um, what’s what’s, what are some of the things that people need to know? Um, I think that it’s important to, you know, like, so yeah, so what is, what is another thing that people might need to know or might surprise people?

Beth 52:37
Um, well, I think that, you know, I talked about people being surprised when the death happens. And because so much of Hospice is in people’s homes. I think people don’t really give consideration to what’s happening at the moment of death and after the death. And, I, I, I want people to know that when somebody dies in their home, they can take as long as they need before they need feel like they need to do the business, you know, call up hospice team, if they want support, they can call up the hospice team any any moment and say, Can somebody come over and support me my, my dad just died. But, but to think about that, those hours after the death, and there may be a ritual or something that you might want to do, you know, at our hospice house, we bathe the patient after they’ve died, you know, you take off all their equipment, their oxygen stuff, you we we have a quilt that we put over them in our other facility would put flour there, and then we’d offer a toast, we’d bring in sparkling apple cider and you know, sweet champagne glasses, and everybody would have a toast or something like that. So um, you know, one of my things with dying anyway, is I think it would be important for people to just consider, you know, what to do after their loved one has died. Just to for a little bit of closure, but it all that kind of stuff also helps with your grief down the road, you know, you can kind of hold on to the memories. But, yeah, so, but I think my biggest thing I want people who are on your podcast to know is that you know, if you cannot feel guilty about anything that happens really well somebody is in your home and you’re taking care of your loved one when they’re dying. I mean, that is my that is my prayer for you because I things just are not clean and tidy with death. It is an awkward process. It can be messy, it’s hard. It’s challenging, but it’s also beautiful and and profound. to enrich so. So just, you know, if you’re working through any kind of guilt about like how your loved one was for cared for, or what happened or why you weren’t there at this time, just know and trust that things happen as they should. And doing your best and showing up for them is the most loving gift you could have given to them. So,

Brian Smith 55:24
yeah, well, I really liked what you said about that little ritual after the person passes. I have a friend whose son passed away he had a terminal illness, he was in hospice, but he was at home. And after he passed, I think they they washed his body and took pictures with them and stuff, you know, and it was I was, I wouldn’t have thought of that. I thought it was so cool that she did that. And that’s the memory that they’ll always have that moment was, it was a beautiful moment for them. As opposed to, like you said, rushing out and during the business stuff, take your Take your time with it. And and, you know, that’s something that you can cherish for the rest of your time here.

Beth 56:03
Yeah, and, and really take as much time as you need I’ve had when I went to one patient’s home after he had died, and his sons were there, and they were playing their dad’s favorite music, and it was loud. And then we dressed their dad from head to toe, and like his, you know, Sunday best, and they were drinking, you know, whatever their dad’s favorite drink, it was like whiskey or bourbon or something like that. And, and it was just, it was filled with like, tears and laughter and, you know, the music. And I just think how I mean, I remember it, you know, and I’ve been with hundreds of people and they died and right. And I can’t imagine how good that will feel to them as they walk through the nest and the rest of their lives, knowing like just having the peace of that beautiful ritual that they did for their dad, you know, those last those last moments with him. Because, you know, oftentimes, especially if it’s 3am, and somebody dies, you call the hospice hospice calls the funeral home, funeral home comes out, and they take your loved one away to the funeral home. And it, it can be very jarring for people, you know, so I love it, if people can just kind of consider that, like the after, after death moments how they want that to look and ask the patient how they want it to like,

Brian Smith 57:29
yeah, that’s also a great idea to ask, ask the patient, you know, what would you like to have done at that point? That’s, that’s one of the things about being able to anticipate, you know, a transition or death is you can actually plan for it. And so hopefully, you’ll have, you know, fewer regrets. Yeah, and if you hadn’t, you know, hadn’t planned for it. So it’s, you know, I like the back of your book sounds like it’s very, very much needed for people that are going through this process that we don’t know a lot about, and just to be able to have that Handbook of you know, what to expect, you know, what types of things we need to plan for, because I know it does surprise people. You know, like you’re saying, Okay, perfect. We’ll say, Well, she’s sleeping all the time. Now. That’s, that’s kind of a normal phase, right? People go through words like near the end. They’re just my thing is I think they’re going between worlds and I’ve heard this from people who are death, doulas. It’s like they’re going back and forth at this time. So they’re sometimes here sometimes they’re not.

Beth 58:28
They call it the veil. The veil is thin. You know, which I love that analogy, just kind of crossing over back and forth.

Brian Smith 58:35
Yeah. So yeah, I have a friend she’s a media and she’s also debt bill. And she says she sits by the beds and she’s she can actually see in the other world and this world at the same time. So she sees the other spirits coming and going and them communing. You know, like we’re getting ready. We’re, you know, and I want to ask you this. Have you heard this people talking about taking a trip? Have you heard people say things? Yeah, yeah, I’m getting ready to go. I’ve got to get my bags packed.

Beth 59:00
Yeah, that happens. Often, actually. The travel metaphors, you know, it’s a thing. It’s a thing. And, and it’s so interesting. they’ll, they’ll I’ve heard about people waiting in lines for cruise ships. I thought that was a fun one. You know, if you think you’re going on a cruise ship, that’s great. waiting in lines, getting their tickets, needing their passport, having to catch the train, open the door, open the door, you know. So a lot of there’s a lot of movement that’s happening. And there’s definitely this journey element to the end of life, which, you know, I just think I find really fascinating too, because it’s a thing, you know,

Brian Smith 59:39
yeah. Yeah.

Beth 59:40
I think it’s final gifts is the book by Megan Callen, Maggie Callahan. And and she talks about travel metaphors and the the language of the dying and it’s a really sweet book about just the needs of dying expressed through there. Their communication that is subtle, and not very clear to us. But if we know if you know reading her book gives you some really good ideas and things to look for.

Brian Smith 1:00:12
Yeah, Raymond Moody wrote a book about nonsense. And lady, I think it was Lisa smart. And they were talking about what we what we call nonsense the language of the day. And I think a lot of times because we don’t understand the metaphors that they’re using. So and I think now back, when, by when my father in law was going through dementia, as he was getting to the later stages, he would say, all this crazy, seem like crazy stuff. And you talk about people that were always deceased, the people, it was funny, because he’s eight. Now, he was known people for many, many years. But he didn’t talk about them, he’d always talked about people that were deceased, and having seen them and what they were doing, or he was going to go see them. And at the time, I wasn’t aware enough to realize what was going on. I just thought it was nonsense, you know, we just started hallucinations. So I want to offer people to look out for those types of things. And when they happen, you know, maybe don’t dismiss it as they’re just hallucinating. Or it’s just the drugs talking.

Beth 1:01:05
Oh, right, I think you can really show up in a very different way. If you, you know, if somebody appears to be confused, to kind of sit down, and really, you can you can ask the patient Hmm, I’m not really understanding, or is there something you want to tell me or, you know, kind of asking open ended questions, if they’re able to communicate that way, they might be able to make it a little clearer for you. But also, I think, if you have this awareness that there are metaphors that are used at the end of life, and to look for them, I think you can really show up in a much more interested and engaged way, rather than the dismissive way that, you know, like, it’s easy to do, like, Oh, God, dad’s confused. Again, I don’t know why he’s talking about Uncle Joe. You know, like, Oh, that’s so I just think it’s so cool. Like, Wow, what an amazing opportunity to that dad’s connecting with Uncle Joe.

Brian Smith 1:02:02
Yeah, and the thing is, one thing, yeah, not be dismissive of the patient to know to support them and what they’re going through, but also for yourself, it could be it could make it such a much more rich experience for yourself. If you open your eyes up to what’s, you know, what’s really going on there? Definitely. Yeah. I love that about it’s been, it’s been fascinating getting to talk to you about your experience to talk to you about your book, I really appreciate the work that you do, I think it’s so needed. And I’m glad to get this out there to more people to understand what Hospice is and how it’s available for people. So any last thoughts you want to say before we wrap up this afternoon?

Beth 1:02:44
No, thank you for having me. And I am really appreciative of the work that you’re doing. Because you know, after somebody dies, it is it’s a long, it’s a long haul. So I’m in as you know, grief doesn’t just go away, you have to kind of integrate the loss throughout your life. So I love the work that you’re doing. And, you know, I love talking about this topic. So I really appreciate you having me on it because my family doesn’t really love me talking about death and dying all the time. So thanks for giving me the opportunity.

Brian Smith 1:03:14
Yeah, well, you know, it’s funny, as you say that cuz I talk about this stuff all the time. And I was I was with someone the other day, and I was telling him I was getting ready to do I did a past life regression, like Saturday. And I just I just said, like, you know, I’m doing this, my wife looks at me. And she goes, Yeah, we’re in looks at him. Because we’re into this really weird stuff down. I’m like, Yeah, I forgotten. Everybody believes this. But you know, the world that I live in,

Beth 1:03:38
that’s so fun. Well, I mean, I’ve done a lot of those things. And I did a soul soul retrieval one. So all those things, I think, are really helpful. I mean, I don’t know I find them more like therapeutic than anything. So I love them.

Brian Smith 1:03:53
Yeah, well, you know, death is. Death is just another part of life. As I said, at the very beginning, if you’re born, there’s 100% chance that you’re going to die. So we might as well face that and the people that we’re with, you know, when we get when we get married, I was talking with someone the other day, she’s a long, long term relationship. And her her beloved aunt passed away. And she says, We were supposed to go together. I said, Do you know how often that happens? But that’s not the way it goes. We don’t we don’t go together. When we get married. One of us is going to be with that the other one. And unless, you know, anyway, we won’t go there. But yeah, that’s we all we all go through. We all go through grief, we all go through loss, you know, one way or the other. So let’s just get prepared for it.

Beth 1:04:38
Yeah, let’s get kind of tried to get on board with it and make it as smooth as possible and support each other, you know, through the process, because we’re all going to need it at some point.

Brian Smith 1:04:47
Yeah, exactly. Well, Beth, have a great rest of your day. Thanks so much. You too, Brian. I appreciate you. Bye. So that does it for another episode of grief to growth. I sure hope you enjoyed it. If you like this content Make sure you subscribe, so click on the subscribe button here, and then click on the bell to receive notifications and click on all. That way you’ll be notified whenever I release new content. Thanks for watching and have a great day.

Transcribed by

After we have lost a loved one one of the most sought-after signs is a “dream visit”. We hear about them all the time. But, what do we know about them from a scientific viewpoint?

Dr. Joshua Black is a grief researcher, speaker, author, consultant, online course instructor, and host of the Grief Dreams Podcast. He has focused all of his MA and Ph.D. research (in psychology) on investigating dreams in bereavement (also known as grief dreams) and continuing bonds from many types of loss (including prenatal loss and pet loss).

Most of his academic research and publications have specifically been on dreams of the deceased. Dr. Black is considered one of the world’s leading academic experts in grief dreams. Due to the lack of academic research in this field, Dr. Black has focused his efforts on raising awareness on grief dreams through doing talks, interviews, and developing an online Grief Dreams course.

Additionally, he developed a grief dreams website ( and runs several social media accounts (Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram @griefdreams).






Brian Smith 0:00
Close your eyes and imagine what are the things in life that causes the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we’ve been buried, but what if, like a seed we’ve been planted and having been planted, to grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes, open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is grief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. Hey everybody, this is Brian back with another episode of grief to growth. And today I’ve got with me Dr. Joshua black, and I’m really excited to interview Dr. Black says he’s his field of expertise a very unique field. He’s a grief researcher, a speaker and author, a consultant, online courses structure and he’s the host of the grief dreams podcast. He’s focused all of his Master’s and PhD research in psychology, on investigating dreams and bereavement, also known as grief dreams, and continuing bonds for many types of loss including prenatal loss and pet loss. Most of his academic research and publications has specifically been on the dreams of the deceased. Dr. Black is considered one of the world’s leading academic experts in grief dreams. Due to lack of academic research in this field, Dr. Black has focused his efforts are raising awareness on grief dreams, through doing talks, interviews and developing an online grief dreams course. Additionally, developed the grief dreams website and read several social media accounts on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, at at grief dreams. So with that, I want to introduce Dr. Joshua black. Thank you for having me today. Yeah, it’s really I’m really excited to have you here today. We had to move this a couple times because of some some things that our calendars but really afford to talk to you about this, this field that people I think know a little bit about, but not a lot about. So how did you get involved in researching grave dreams?

Unknown Speaker 2:09
Like, it’s it’s a very interesting story, that, you know, it came really after my dad died, I wanted to be an elementary school teacher, that was my focus for my entire life. I like since I was a kid, I remember my dad telling me how that that was the best job to have because it has a good pension, and it’s pretty well paying paid in Canada anyways, it’s where I’m from. So I spent my whole life really going towards that. And then the fourth year, it took five years to finish my undergrad, the fourth year, my dad died, and it changed absolutely everything. And so the first time I really experienced a death, a significant loss in my life. And it was completely devastating for me. Like I remember getting that phone call, he was supposed to pick me up, it was around my birthday. And we’re supposed to go to a hockey game together and just never showed up. And so I just thought he slept in, he had some health issues, where it minimize what he could do. And so I just figured, oh, maybe he was just you know, had migraine or something he just couldn’t, couldn’t come. So I didn’t think anything of it. Two days later, I got a phone call from my aunt, who basically said that, you know, they found my father dead in his apartment, and, and he was just claps on the floor. And for me, like the amount of emotion that came out, was so scary, because one of the reasons because I was I still am a guy. But at that time, I really, I didn’t feel comfortable crying. So I tend to not cry. I don’t know when the last time I cried probably when I was a kid. And so those emotions are coming out, I haven’t felt those in for a very long time. And they just kept coming, the tears kept coming and like the, the negative thoughts and the of the future of like not being able to do stuff with them and not having any more memories. That really scared me and a lot of ways. And I had to sit with that. And I sat with that for about three days, I decided to do a eulogy, which was interesting in itself. I recommend everyone to do that. But yeah, I kept crying on stage for a good like five minutes before I could speak. But the emotions like I couldn’t believe how much emotion was coming out. You know, with that, and one of the reasons I should say too, because me my dad had a rocky relationship throughout her entire life. And one of the reasons was he had a he drank a lot to cope with his emotions. And so he had a lot of trauma he never actually worked through. And so I was scared him for the majority of my life. And we just never, you know, clicked kind of thing until after my mom and him got divorced. And it was about that year and a half there. That’s when we started rebuilding our relationship. And he acted a lot differently to me, I think, and I think there’s a story in that for me because I think that’s where the pain was coming from. Because if it was if I only thought if he died, maybe You know, two years earlier, I wouldn’t have felt like that would have been like, okay, you know, okay, so had a lot of resentment, a lot of pain for him, but because of the friendship that we’re really building, and he’s becoming the father always wanted kind of thing as a kid. And then for him to just die like that. It was it was such a shock. And it brought up all those, all those emotions. I remember wanting to after I get got the news, I want to do something special for him. And I was actually really considering dropping out of school and going to Israel, which was a trip he wanted to take me on the following year. And I was really grateful looking back now I had a partner who calmed me down and was pretty supportive to say, you know, let’s wait until you finish you’ll have one year left the school, let’s you know, finish that. And then you can decide on if you should do that or not. And so I’m so happy for that. Because it it’s amazing, the irrational decisions we can make, you know, when we’re in a state of grief, so I’m just so happy I had I had, you know, some support around me at that time. So anyways, I did the eulogy. I went back to school the next day, and all my sadness was gone. But the crazy thing was all my happiness and joy was gone, too. And so I was living in this weird gray state where like, there was no color left in the world. And I was in that state for about three months. And I couldn’t tell you, I tried everything. And nothing really gave me joy they used to. And so I just thought, well, this is life. Now. This is what grief is this is life. And it wasn’t till I had a dream, my father that everything changed. And so this is where my love for that topic really started. And so the dream was, I was just in my room was very, wasn’t like a bizarre dream at all, like I was in my so in the dream, I was in my room, and everything in my room was the same way. It wasn’t waking life, which is, you know, very unique in itself. At that time, a lot of clutter everywhere. So that is amazing details.

Unknown Speaker 6:56
Yeah, sure. And then a lot of other dreams that I have heard, you tend to be like, you know, weird stuff going on. So you’d wake up, you’re like, oh, that was a dream. But this was it. It was very realistic in that way. I saw my dad at the end of my room. And he looked so healthy, like I never like it wasn’t even a memory because I never even seen him like this before his energy was very light. As I said he a lot of trauma and issues going on, and waking life. So we always had this heaviness to him, where he just never dealt with his stuff. And but here he felt so light, like his energy was just so beautiful. And he just looked so healthy. And I walked up to him and I said, I’m gonna miss you acknowledging loss. And I said that I loved them. And then we hugged, and I woke up. And when I woke up, it was the most crazy experience because everything changed, the color was back into the world. Like, I don’t know, I didn’t know, I remember sitting at the edge of my bed and saying What was that? I wasn’t turning the dream. But I felt something changed in me because of the dream. And I still sit in the mystery of that moment. And I hear it a lot from other people where the dream itself changes people. It’s not really the interpretation, I can help in many different ways. But the dream itself had the power to change, like, where I was in my grief. And so I was able to have this joy back and I was able to regulate my emotions, I could have tears, you know, when I thought about him and stuff. So it was really a beautiful, whatever, that was a very beautiful point in my life, because I don’t know where it’d be, I’d probably still be in the gray. And I’d probably be doing something differently because of that dream. I then finished, you know, school, within probably, I think six months after that. And I applied to be in Teacher’s College, which was my goal the whole time. And the moment I got an interview to get in. I just felt something wasn’t right. And so I turned it down, which was for me looking back one of the craziest decisions I’ve made because I had nothing going I had no plan B there’s no plan B, I was going off a feeling and especially after grief. I don’t know why that was because I feel like I’ve been misleading in many ways. But you know, looking back, maybe because my dad was dead and to have that pressure to do it, that unconscious kind of pressure. But at the same time, I think there’s just another path that was just being led for let out for me. I just didn’t know what that was. And that following year was just as scary as to grief because I couldn’t find work and when I did find work wasn’t fulfilling. I’m like, is this life you know, is this life after you know, doing your your undergrad? I’m like, this isn’t what they told me. Every all the jobs I wanted you to masters for I’m like, I don’t want to do a masters. Right? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 9:37
I don’t want to do any more school. And so I saw I worked you know these odd jobs and I want to find some meaning. So I went and volunteered at a hospice to help with the bereaved, and I did one on one support and group support and group support. And they had these questions about these dreams. So some people were sharing these positive dreams. Other people were asking questions why they didn’t have dreams other people want to know What these negative dreams meant. And you know, I didn’t really know, I didn’t know much about dream research at that time. And so I looked at the research, I still had an account for my school. So I looked at the publications that were available, and there wasn’t anything when it came to these types of dreams that I could provide them to give them any kind of understanding. And I was really shocked by that, because, you know, I thought, you know, most SUVs researched a lot, you know, a lot of people are just almost like cleaning up the trail, like the the laneways, Pat, like paved, and they’re just like, every research study is just moving a little, like an inch forward. Exactly. But there’s like nothing, it wasn’t a dirt road, I can really go off of it. So I couldn’t give him an answer. And then I had this moment where I was like, could I like, as I knew the impact it had for me, and their questions really interested me? and thought, like, could I research this topic? Like, is that a possibility for me? And then in my mind, I’m like, well, you have to know stats, you have to know research methodology, I’m like, I don’t want to know. And I didn’t want to be a researcher and for a lot, so I was really scared to pursue that, that goals. But finally, I settled down the nerves and said, you know, what, you know, why not give it a go, what’s the worst can happen, you know, I don’t get in or I go, when I fail, at least I tried, I can say I tried, you know, like, and so that’s really, so I had to, like, have courage to even, like, pursue this. And I did. And what amazing was I actually got through, and like, without some challenges, I gotta say, I want to quit many times, and the support of, you know, my friends, and the people who follow the topic and my platform were really helpful and encouraged me to how much this was needed. And so when I was at the, like, the lowest points of my, I guess, you know, masters or PhD, I had that to go off and say, you know, we got to keep persevering this, you know, like, we got to keep doing this. And so it spent a lot of time extra time, I felt like, I was like, two years behind everyone else tell you truth. Because everyone wanted to be a researcher, like, when I asked my colleagues that are in their masters, they like, Oh, I knew, like when I started University, so like, they already had this plan, and they really valued, you know, stats, and we said methodology. To me, I want to be a elementary school teacher, which I took those courses, but I didn’t, you know, like, I just got enough to get the good grades, like I didn’t retain any other information. So I had to learn all that over again. And then when I got my PhD is less like, was like, super smart. And I had a really sort of, you know, up my game on that too. And you know, but I made it through, you know, at the end of the day, I made it through. And by the end of that fourth year, I was at par with everyone else, if not, you know, in the sense of what I was doing a little bit, my career trajectory was a little different, because a lot of people want to be to do a postdoc, and to do all this other stuff and want to get into other areas. I’m like, this is the only topic on a research I get, I don’t want to be bothered with anything else other than this. And so I really directed a lot of my focus on doing talks and set up the website and the podcast, rather than, you know, do more research studies outside of my field, which a lot of my colleagues are doing at that time. So I just had a different kind of, I think, plan on why I was researching the topic, and then what I was going to do with it as I move forward. So that’s where it all sort of happened. And when I was in my Master’s and PhD those years, that’s when I really realized how vast The topic is like before. I’m just going off a couple of questions. Once I got in, and I started seeing the different biases, the different ways people see these dreams, started collecting the dreams and doing the research. I’m like, wow, this field is phenomenal. And it really, you know, changed the way I viewed these dreams in many ways, but also the way I approached them with people. And I think that’s one of the most important things of why I’m doing these talks is to validate the importance of this within the grief journey, but also how to use the sermon and provide a safe space for people to actually share these experiences.

Brian Smith 13:47
Yeah, that’s, that’s awesome. And I think it’s it is such important work that that again, I don’t know, there’s been much research done on it. I haven’t heard of any. And I know that, you know, when we have these dreams, and some of us do. And frankly, some of us say they don’t. Everybody wants to you know, I I’ve worked a lot with parents who have lost children. And we’re like, Why can I get more dreams? I want to I want to dream visit you know, it’s such a it’s a but people like so I want to just back up for us. And maybe you can find it what is actually a dream because we don’t we know we go to sleep we have this thing that we feel but what is a dream.

Unknown Speaker 14:21
A dream is really any thought feeling or seeing that you sort of remember when you wake up and so that’s sort of the definition of a dream. A lot of people think when it comes to dreams, it only happens in REM state but it’s not actually true. We actually dream throughout our sleep so and non REM and REM there are differences in the quality of those dreams. So usually non REM dreams are more bland. And in the REM dreams you get more of the emotion that’s going on but at the you know, near the end of night it’s not as as true. And the other interesting thing is in REM you tend to remember more dreams. So a lot of people would say if you remember a dream, it’s probably from Rome because if you wake someone up 80% of them Time, they’re going to be dreaming in non REM, it’s around 50% of the time. And so there’s just a little difference there. We don’t know where these Greek dreams fit in personally, like, you have to catch it in the lab to sort of understand where these powerful dreams come in. It’s probably around but you know, like, at the end of day, we just don’t know. And I think that’s the mystery of this topic, because they do act differently than other dreams. A typical dreams anyways, so there is this mystery of what actually is going on in the brain when these happen. And so yeah, that’s, that’s basically a nutshell the dreams, and I should tell you some dream research. So when it comes to dreams, 10% of the population doesn’t remember dreaming, even though for our knowledge, everyone is dreaming. It’s just the remembering is the issue. And so on average, one to two dreams a week, the public would say they would remember. And you can, you know, change that based on which kind of we can talk about that more, but you can increase your frequency of dreams as you move forward, just by valuing the topic. So you know, keeping a dream journal, listen to this, and you know, talking about your dreams with others, if you’re really trying to tell your mind that these are important. Now, our culture is really bad at valuing dreams. So why would you remember them? Right? And so there’s different ways to remember dreams a little bit better? We can go over that, you know, if you want to, but yeah, right. Yeah. Okay. Well, I

Brian Smith 16:17
do want to interject here, because my wife was one of those people for a long time would say, I don’t think I dream, because I don’t remember my dreams. And then after my daughter passed, and my daughter or the daughter was talking about dreams, and I was talking about dreams, and we do all these reading about dreams. Now my wife is remembering her dreams a lot more often. Because it’s what you’re saying that valuing the dream makes a difference.

Unknown Speaker 16:38
Yeah, it’s so amazing to and like, the more you you value it, the more you read through your dreams down, the more you can have and like, the more you just remember anyways. And so like I remember, like just trying this out, like research has shown that just by doing that, it increases your recall rate. And so for me, I usually have, you know, maybe three dreams a week, and I remember started doing this. And within a month, I was having three dreams a night that I could remember. And so I finally said, you know, this is enough like this is because it kept waking me up and write down. And so finally, I’m like, I’m only writing down like the ones that I feel are more meaningful. And so then my the rate of recall actually decreased, so you can increase and decrease based on that too, right? So interesting. Wow. Yeah. Which is really interesting. And so what I want to sort of say, when it comes to dreams, most people, on average, most people will have negative dreams. And that’s just because a lot of times we carry our stresses or worries to bed, or, or watching the news, or we’re watching a horror film or something that is going to be creeping into our dreams. And after trauma, what’s interesting is that these dreams become even more consistently negative. And so you would think after grief would be very similar in the sense that people are going to be having a lot of nightmares or negative dreams, if you just look at the pandemic right now. And there has been research to show that there’s been an increase in nightmares, increase of negative images from people, and you can just sort of see how that reflects the stress of individual and given a pandemic is a very stressful time, for many reasons. Financial is that you have the grief stuff, someone dies, you have work you have catching the virus in your own death and mortality, your loved ones, your mortality, there’s so much stress, people are dealing with even having to homeschool your kids like I can’t imagine what that would be like. But you know, like, you’re going to bed with all that. And so dreams reflect our waking life. And people just need to understand that connection. Because there’s a lot of clues and a lot of things that you can learn from your dreams. If you know how to sort of understand your dream language, I think that’s the most important thing is that everyone has their own unique language when it comes to the dreams as much as we want a quick fix. And we want to just google you know, what does an elephant mean? And then take that to mean what your dream means. It’s not the best way of doing it, you’re just going to sell yourself short. And you’d probably be led in a wrong direction. So like everyone’s like symbol of an elephant be different. But there’s also a story that goes along with the elephants. It’s very rare. You just have an elephant you wake up, you’re usually riding the elephant, you’re going around and meeting people or whatnot. Right? So there’s a story that goes along that helps people understand what the dream itself is trying to convey to the dreamer. Sometimes it’s very passive, and it’s just, you know, working through the emotions of the day. But a lot of times, it’s you know, there’s a lot of problem solving in there and basically allowing you to see what you’re working on still. Because the mind is so great at tricking you to think you’re further than you are in life. And you know, yes, sometimes I’ll give it I’ll give an example. That’s just in the pandemic. You know, when they like that it was that crazy. Everyone was buying toilet paper. Yeah. So around that time, I was like, Oh, I got this. I’m okay. I’m not too stressed. You know, like, I have a smile on my face. I was going through life. And then I had this really crazy nightmare where I was in my house I grew up in and there was a chandelier being taken down. And when I was taken down, I took some of the glass And I started eating it and then I having sort of having like a panic attacks, I realized that glass was stuck in my throat and I couldn’t get it out. I woke up with just a deep sweat. Like, like for me like the last time I had it was probably like maybe seven or eight years ago like I nightmares that I pretty cognitive my emotions and waking life. And so I tend to work on them in waking life. So it doesn’t have to affect me so much in my dream world. But anyway, so that was a such a big trigger for me that there was something I didn’t I wasn’t catching I wasn’t seeing Hmm. So I really had to look at that because I’m like, I thought it was fine. Like what’s going on? And then I realized, like, okay, let’s, if this was someone else’s dream.

Unknown Speaker 20:37
I can look at this. I’m like, okay, what’s the chandelier? Well, a chandelier provides light to a large space. I go, what’s similar to that that’s going on in my life right now. And so I started thinking, I’m like, Oh, the news does that the news provides stories to a country, right? And so for a large space, I’m like, so I’m breaking off and must be reading a lot of it and jesting it. But what am i ingesting is actually caused me great pain and suffering. I don’t know about it. I was like, this makes sense. Because what it was doing at that time, as much as I felt calm, I was reading a lot of news throughout the day. And that was actually very detrimental to my mental health. And I didn’t even know it. And so I really had to take a step back and say, Okay, why are we looking at the news? Oh, to feel safe, how many times you need to look at it to feel safe. And I’m like, okay, maybe you know, once or twice if it’s gonna happen, Betcha it’s gonna be like the headliner, you don’t need to go on to like, you know, 10 different articles to understand. Toilet paper is running out like this, right? And so I made a list when like, how can I actually problem solve this? So like, Okay, what do I need to feel safe? And so you get some extra food and that sort of stuff? And like, Is there anything else that you need? And it’s like, no, so then, okay, so then the, the need to, to look at the new so often wasn’t as important for me. And so it was just maybe once or twice in the morning, I would look at an article. And that was it, I wouldn’t look at night. So that was the big thing. Like, dude, I really stopped that. And I never had an experience like that, since I haven’t had a nightmare since that day. So it’s just really understanding that, you know, there’s a lot of knowledge that we can gain about ourselves, I always like to say dreams can be our best friend, who is, you know, can tell you the truth when you don’t want to hear it. I think that’s sort of, you know, what a best friend supposed to be anyways, is to really give you the heads up and when you’re off the off off your rocker and, and thinking that you’re going north, but you’re really going south.

Brian Smith 22:29
So is the dream, our subconscious trying to communicate to our conscious mind? Is that what it is?

Unknown Speaker 22:34
Do you think? Yeah, right. But I know other people who have different theories of you know, based on their religion, and based on their belief in the afterlife and stuff, they may see it as differently. But yeah, for me, it’s just like, it’s a guidance. If it comes from inside or outside of me, it doesn’t really matter. Like, I’m not too concerned, I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna use it.

Brian Smith 22:51
Yeah, well, that’s a good point. That’s an excellent point, you know, because the thing is, you know, as we talk about dream visits, you know, people will say, Well, I just have my normal dreams. And then I have my nightmares. And then I have my grief dreams, or my dream visits. And they’ll say, it’s a totally different quality of experience. It’s kind of like the way you described the dream with your father. And, and you wake up and you feel there, it’s reminds me when people have Indies, when I say it just changed my entire perspective on everything.

Unknown Speaker 23:22
And many of those dreams can be like that. And it’s also you know, it’s important to say, we talked about these positive drains a lot. And I think a lot of topic, a lot of the conversation does go there. But there’s a lot of negative frames that also happen that also have very similar qualities to some of the positive dreams are very vivid, they’re very real, they’re one on one, they may not give you a positive feeling, but they stay with you for their entire life, too. So sometimes a lot of people who are spiritual take those as a haunting, and there’s cultures that believe that that is a negative visitation. So as much as a lot of you know, press goes to these positive dreams, there is a lot of negative dreams. And just in my study, I just sort of state so when I looked at sort of how frequent these these are, and just the general public, I found that’s one of the amazing things I found was like how common they are. So after spells a loss within the first year to is 86% of people had a dream of the deceased after pet loss, it was 78%. And after prenatal loss, it was 58%. And then there was a study done with children 55% had a dream after their parent died. And so it’s it when you start looking at those numbers, you realize how common these actually are, then when you sort of look at are they positive or negative experiences. Because if you remember when we talked about just how common negative dreams are, in general, then after trauma, you would think a lot of dreams after grief would be negative to so especially deceased in it. But as you’re saying, this is where it gets interesting because it goes against typical dream research that most these dreams are positive. So when you ask someone, you know, the content, if you ever had a positive dream and you sort of give a lay on with that. means around over 90% of people say they have at least one positive dream of the Seas when it goes to negative around 30%. And of those 30%. What’s interesting is that those individuals will also have a positive dream at some point. And so what it says to me it probably is going on is that people are having more negative dreams in the beginning. And as they work through their trauma and their grief, they’ll have more of these positive dreams moving forward. We don’t know that for sure. We need to do more longitudinal research for that. But that is what I’ve heard on my podcast a lot. And what I’ve just heard with talking to other people, but yeah, there’s something there and I think within so within those beautiful dreams, so they’re acting differently than normal. And as you said, like a lot of them have this very beautiful space that is being provided with just love and peace. Like it is absolutely amazing. Like the deceased will say, amazed, like really why stuff. They really help the dream out in many different ways to feel loved to deal with some of the problems that we’re facing. But just the presence of love is one of the things I find is the most remarkable because a lot of times we seek that in life and never achieve it because we have so many worries and so much fear that is just under the surface. But in this dream, it’s like, none of that matters. It’s like all you have is this space of love, and what that can do to someone. And so when we when I look at my dream, yeah, I realized the importance of being able to say goodbye to my father, because his death was sudden I realize that the saying I love you as important aspect of that dream, because I never said that to him. And probably since I was six. So it’s something that I needed to say that never got a chance to say, Well, he never said to me too, so let’s not put the blame on me. Eric, yeah. And then the third thing was this peace, that peace in the dream was different than any other dream I had. Even the dreams that are positive, I have don’t have that level of peace in them. So there’s something else going on? That’s probably very beneficial to us as we move forward through grief.

Brian Smith 27:03
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I was we’re doing this or talking about this. I was thinking about recollection of dreams. We talked about how you can actually recall more dreams. But do we have any idea why we recall some dreams and don’t recall other dreams? or Why? Some people seem to recall a lot more than than other people do.

Unknown Speaker 27:21
Yeah, when it comes to dream recall, there are theories out there. Because we can’t see each dream, it’s very hard to understand why remember certain dreams over others, especially when it comes to this the deceased. A lot of people will say, you know, you remember dreaming because the vividness of it. So the more vivid a dream, the more emotional dream is, would be different factors. If it’s in RAM, you may have a better if you’re waking up in RAM, you may have a better chance of catching that because RAM is very similar to our waking state. And so it could be you know that but yeah, so there’s little, there’s still a lot of mystery on it. But when it comes to these streams, it’s very interesting because they tend to come up at very important times in people’s lives. And so I’m not sure if they’re just not remembering the dreams or they’re just not occurring, right? That’s a question that we won’t know until we be able to see dreams in general. It could be people are dreaming of deceased more than they’re actually remembering it and that’s interesting. So then then it’s like why remembering certain dreams at certain points in our life over others.

Announcer 28:18
We’ll get back to grief to growth in just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian is an author and a life coach. If you’re grieving or know someone who is grieving his book, grief to growth is a best selling easy to read book that might help you or someone you know, people work with Brian as a life coach to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers at WWW dot grief to www dot g ri e f the number two gr o w th calm or text growth gr o w th 31996 if you’d like to support this podcast visit slash grief to growth slash g ri e f the number two gr o w th to make a financial contribution and now back to grief to growth and yeah,

Brian Smith 29:21
you know it’s interesting because I in the community I run a lot of people believe that we actually leave our bodies every night and we basically astral travel and we meet with our guides and our loved ones and stuff like that and we don’t recall that so we’re we’re kind of back and forth between you know two worlds and so when we you know have these these grief dreams we call them dream visits that we believe that we’re actually with you know our loved one again but with the great dreams or have you noticed any like common Natalie’s with the dreams versus regular dreams and give you some examples for me. It seems like they’re usually once I have the really short. They’re usually not they’re not very long. And when I would see my daughter, I would always know she’s not supposed to be here. So I get very excited because I you realize, you know, this, this is supposedly happening. And then it would be somewhat lucid because I would know I was dreaming. And then I wouldn’t want to wake up. But I would always I would get excited, I’d wake myself up. Some of the things that I went through is, Is that normal? Do other people have that?

Unknown Speaker 30:22
I’ve heard that. Yeah, they definitely do seem shorter than other dreams, even just the word count that I’ve collected, like I’ve collected over 1000 dreams. And just when you compare that with other dream research, it tends to be a little shorter. But that also could be you know, what people are writing, because when I captured the data, I didn’t go after a dream sample, which most people would in their research, I would have to recreate sample. So a lot of people you would assume are not dreaming Theseus, so they’re not, you know, wanting to talk about their dream. So maybe that’s reason why it’s a little shorter. So it didn’t didn’t add enough detail to the dream, they sort of just cut to the chase of maybe what was most important to them. So yeah, we don’t do more research on that. But yeah, a lot of people will say that, you know, they’ll know the Sisa data, they’ll know that they’re dreaming. It’s not as common as I think. Like, like, for me, like I knew my dad was dead, but I wasn’t lucid in the dream. Like, I didn’t realize it was a dream. In that moment. A lot of people are like that, where they could acknowledge the person’s that but they won’t say this is a dream and become that lucid. What was the other one? You’re saying?

Brian Smith 31:24
Well, I would say, it’s short, it’s lucid. And then I was for me, I would like always get excited about seeing her and wake up. And I didn’t want to so I’m like, yeah, so I started actually trying to, when I was in it, say, okay, just don’t get it. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 31:41
And that’s just love right there. It’s just excitement. And, you know, at the end of the day, you know, the dream may have ended, even if you didn’t get excited, but at the end day, it’s just something to smile at. But that’s how much love you have, you know, for your daughter, maybe last year, and for you to sort of take it as a visit. It just makes it that much more special to you believing that it was her right. And so, you know, there’s just something to smile and say, Oh, right, okay. Like, like, how can you change that without like, trying to decrease the outlay. I think that is one of the most important parts of the dreams, just feeling that and that’s just love coming to the surface, you know?

Brian Smith 32:13
Well, like you said, there is that and you can’t really even describe the feeling of love, but just one of the things, you know, when you have it. And I found that when people have that, though, and I know a lot of people have had these types of dreams and like, you know, I could just feel the love, you could feel that they’re okay. It’s just that reassurance that they’re okay, that we’re going to be okay. But it’s interesting, because we, a lot of times people will take those positive gyms we visit but then the negative dreams will say, Well, that was just a dream. But is there something to be learned from the negative dreams also? Of course, yeah. Well,

Unknown Speaker 32:45
first is using discernment, right? Some people who, as I said, will take those dreams as a visit also, depending on where they’re where they are. Right. And so it’s it’s really understanding, like when we call things a dream visit, it’s just really understanding that that actually complicates a lot of things, for people in many different forms. And just for before I go on the negative frames, people, just in my own research, when you look at, you know, who are having these dreams, like that was one of the common concerns that why I started the research was you know why some people are having these dreams and other people aren’t. And so the spiritual people would always put themselves down if they haven’t had a dream. And then they’ll be jealous of others. They’d say, oh, maybe he didn’t cross over properly. Maybe he’s mad at me, because I had to like maybe sell the house or something. Yeah, or couldn’t give them that type of funeral that he wanted. Or maybe, you know, the afterlife is they forgot, they forgot about me kind of thing. And so I want to give a scientific explanations, sort of understand that a little bit more. And so what I found and in replicating the research, is that dream recall was the most important factor. So what it’s saying is that people who remember more dreams in general, remember more of these types of dreams. I think that’s interesting. For a lot of people, when you start asking them, if they didn’t have a dream, you know, what the recall rate is, usually it’s pretty bad and pretty poor. And so I usually connect the dots for them. And for them, you can see this weight goes off. And because all those reasons, negative reasons where they put on it, it are now sort of this valid, and now because the research people can hold on to that and say, Oh, I just didn’t remember maybe the dream that I did have. But within that study, so in both studies, I looked at spirituality, because a lot of people thought, so I wasn’t gonna put it in, but people sort of made me put it in thought that people who are spiritual will have more of these dreams. I guess it’s a good theory. Anyways, it’s not true. So people who are spiritual or not, are both having similar dream experiences. difference is, is in the content. So maybe in a spiritual person, we’ll talk about the afterlife, or they’ll talk about, you know, I don’t know what heaven looks like or what death is like something like that. We’re in people who are not spiritual, they won’t but they still have that loving quality. They’ll even say they’re okay, like they still have those kind of comments that still say that they love them, but they just won’t have that other stuff in it. So, you know, but for those people what I want to sort of mention, you know, when we label these as Maybe a dream because it’s a somehow we can put off others. Because if you’re not spiritual, your guard and your wall goes up the moment you hear it’s a visit, and you don’t want to share those experiences anymore. And so I really tried to get people to understand that, you know, there, it’s the quality of the dream, I think the most important to ask and then ask how they feel about it. Because some people based on their culture, religion, that is not that would be frowned upon, in many ways to call it a dream visit, right. But it’s a great moment together, and whatever you call that living in the mystery of that moment, and that in itself can allow people to share these a little bit more freely, because most people hide them if they don’t get asked. And I think that’s why people thought it was rare. But you know, for a spiritual person, they’ll let you know right away if they think it’s a visit, because you know, like, they’ll say, just the wording they use. I think that’s beautiful. And I always I never discourage that, because I’ve seen in even in my research, how these dreams help people believe more in afterlife and help people regain their faith, which is really rocky after someone dies. I understand sort of, like, How could this happen. And so you sort of see how it’s beneficial for people. And when it comes to these negative for dreams, these dreams has been shown just in my research when they’re distressing, that they relate to trauma symptoms, and they also relate to unresolved feelings of guilt or blame. And so a good example of this is just understand, like dreams represent our waking life. So a good example was a widow her said like her husband died. And she had this dream, a repeated dream of her husband coming to the door, and telling her that he’s still alive. And then, you know, basically wants to get back together with her. But she says, Oh, no, I’m dating someone new. I can’t. And she’s like, how can you still be alive? Like, how could you make me think that you’re dead? Like, how can you be such a mean and heartless person to do something like that to me? Then he said, You know, like, the moat He’s like, then he’s like, well, if we’re not gonna be together, well, then give me all the money that you inherited, then I’ll leave you alone. And she, she said, No. And then he began to chase her. And so he had this repeated dream over and over again, she thought it was a negative visitation. And then when you start asking about these points in the dream, that are, you’d say, are are important. The one is getting back together, and her being in a relationship. And so that’s one of the issues, right, like how difficult it is for someone who has a partner die. And then to start a new relationship, like you’re, you’re trying to love two people at the same time. And it’s very difficult in our culture, because it’s always been frowned upon. And so for them, like you have to sort of figure that out. And then you have the difficulty of the other partner. Are they even? Do they even want to know about your partner that died? Or they even you know, is? Or are you hiding your, your love to make them feel better? Kind of, right, exactly. It’s a very difficult position to be in. And then on top of that, you have this money. So when you ask her about the money, she said, the most hardest thing after the death was actually accepting the money, because he worked so hard for it. And she felt it was so unjust, that he worked so hard, and she’s the one that gets suspended or keyman. So she’s sort of working through that still. And she’s spending some of that money on the new relationship. So if you see that there’s this complex thing going on, and the mind is trying to say, you know, you got to work through this because whatever you’re doing isn’t working. And because a dream is repeated, like that is a flag that you know, there is something that you’re not getting in waking life that the mind is really good at, if you’re not going to get it they’ll tell you again, either in the same way or in a different story. If you track your dreams over you know, over weeks you can really see if you’re making progress or not based on

Brian Smith 38:38
strength I’ve been having the same dream for years.

Unknown Speaker 38:43
Right? Well, there’s something important there right and he’s drinking trigger, especially your feelings can trigger certain dreams and there’s probably clues in there to help you understand that because you’re not like I don’t feel at the random at all. They’re really telling a story to us to really help us be more healthy and waking life.

Brian Smith 38:59
Yeah, I want to reiterate a couple things you said that you said some really profound things there that I really want to make sure the listeners heard one is when people say I’m not having these dream visits, there’s something wrong with me my loved ones mad at me or this I don’t we don’t have the connection whatever. I think it’s really important. Like you said to ask how many dreams are you recalling in general and that the fact that there’s a correlation there so hopefully that will take a lot of pressure off of some people and there are ways that we can improve our dream recall as you said, by valuing it by journaling I think setting an attention I’ve heard people say I want to have a dream you know just just maybe trigger that subconscious thing I want but I also want to ask you about you had this visit or this dream with your father I using the visit where we had this dream with your father and it changed your life. What was your belief in the afterlife before that? Did it change that or what were your thoughts about that?

Unknown Speaker 39:54
Yeah, I don’t know. It’s very interesting cuz I when I look back at that I am spiritual and but when I look back, I wasn’t asking for it. At that time, I think I’m still developing my my faith in many ways, as I still am, I guess I’m trying to understand this crazy world. And then, and understand myself as I learn more about myself my idea of God or whatever changes significantly. And so at that time, you know, I, when I even look at that dream, I don’t even I don’t think I’ve ever even classified as a visitation. It was just a dream that changed me and I still look look back. I’m like, I would even say it’s visitation. I don’t know, because it was just something that I didn’t put a wasn’t a interpretation. I don’t think I’ve ever really put an interpretation on that dream, per se. It’s just me just how crazy it was. It changed me. And that love is the thing that I keep the most and like, I don’t I get them that I don’t know. Right. Like, like, you know, if it really matters to me, but that I but I wouldn’t I do know for certain is that dream changed me. And so what can I learn from that dream as I move forward? And this is really, I think what’s possible when it comes to love. And so my goal has not been trying to prove the afterlife is real, you know, really it is or it isn’t, I’m going to die. It’s gonna happen. Not like, it’s not like, my belief isn’t going to determine anything. And so, but what can I do? Now? Like, okay, I can learn what’s possible for a human. And I think that there are different levels of love. And if I can dream, a scene like that, or an emotion like that, why can’t I live that in waking life. And so that’s always been my goal moving forward, is trying to get to that place in waking life. And not just need a dream to get me there. Like, I’m really working hard to really try to understand, you know, myself, who I am, what stresses me out, what am I attached to? And what’s holding me back from love. And a lot of people, you know, I’d say, like, we do get attached to these experiences, because they make us feel good. But then when we go to waking life, we’re like, I just want another one. Rather than saying, you know what, yeah, what can I do to increase the chances I can actually have that while I’m awake? Yeah, I think that’s where I’m at. It’s just, it’s less about, you know, what is after, and more about what can I do now. And a lot of these dreams that people share, they have so much wisdom that I gained from them. So that’s why I love asking about these dreams, because there’s so much you can take from it. When it comes to what love is and the words that they say there. It’s just very remarkable. From where I’m sitting to be able to utilize these dreams as a way to rethink what life is and how to process how I see myself as I move forward.

Brian Smith 42:25
Yeah, well, I want to ask you about I don’t know if you’ve heard of this phenomenon or not, but I’ve heard of people that were someone will be deceased. And someone else will have a dream the widow come to visit them, and tell them they’re okay. before anybody even knows this person has been deceased. So have you heard about this happening?

Unknown Speaker 42:43
This is where it gets really wild when it comes to these. These dreams because even on my website, there’s history, I put these people who can have these dreams, as you said, before they even know the person is dead. And I think there is something very beautiful about that and tell our people sit in mystery. There’s a lot about life, we don’t know and think that we do know, even when they think that we know what the afterlife is. It’s just I think insane in itself. Because we just don’t know. But we do know that like for to believe that there is one okay, but to understand what it’s like, I don’t know if we can even conceive of what that is. But right, right with our minds, right. And so there’s a lot of times we have to sit in the mystery of life. And to understand that we may be wrong in different ways, but there’s certain things you can be certain of anyway, so these dreams really make you sit in that mystery. Because they’re having dreams very similar to what someone would have after they know the death person somehow that moment knows of the loss. And that could be like some people would say, oh, that they visited them in the dream. And so they let them know that they basically died. And we’re going to be okay, so that’s one possibility. The other is, let’s say if you’re not spiritual, there must be a connection that people have that goes beyond time or space that people will just know. And I hear that with, like, you know, parents with their children, they just know something’s wrong. They always have this like radar, and they call on something is. And so there could be the strings of just attachment, and then love that allows us to know, when you know someone has died too. So either way, whatever the possibility, it changes the way we understand human beings, just by the occurrence of that. then other times when it comes to, I think some other dreams you’re saying about people having dreams for others. I think that is a really fascinating topic, I collected a lot and people came on my podcast and talked about it. It’s more rare. But someone could have a dream that’s actually meant for someone else in the sense that the character in the dreams of the deceased will tell them to share a message with their father or their mother or whatever. And sometimes that person doesn’t even really even know or really is that close to that individual. And so it takes a lot of courage for someone to have a dream and then share it because it could end up really someone calling you crazy or they just don’t believe you and stuff like that. But for the most part, a lot of people have said the powerful impact it has on others. A lot of times they never had that dream themselves. So it’s very interesting when you start looking at that, and that’s more research that needs to be done on that topic, because it does change the way we we see ourselves and like what’s possible with us. And there’s just so much more we just don’t understand. We’re trying to, like, I guess, go on Mars and land on Mars. And we don’t really even understand, like what we are capable of. Right? Like, it’s just it’s very interesting how we keep pushing the boundaries externally. But internally, it’s still really similar to where it was prior.

Brian Smith 45:27
Yeah, well, there’s just some of the reasons that I believe there’s something more to it than just our subconscious is, you know that that phenomenon I’ve heard of happening, not often, but it happens when people will, will dream about someone else being deceased before they even know. And if you just mentioned another one will, it’s like, it’s almost like they can’t get through to the one that they’re trying to get through to. So they’ll go to the cousin or the art or the neighbor down the street even and say, Nope, the neighbor come up and say, you know, I had a dream, but your your daughter last night, I barely knew her. But she came to me and came to tell me to tell you that she’s okay.

Unknown Speaker 46:00
Yeah, it’s beautiful. It’s beautiful when people said have the courage to be able to actually share that. I do want to mention, when we said we talked about some of these positive trends, there is a there is a category that should be of concern to anyone who works with the bereaved. And that’s a theme called Come join me. And here so kids can have this, it seems. And then also adults, but it’s where the deceased is either dragging the dreamer, basically, to the afterlife, or the dream or the deceased to try and convince the individual to basically kill themselves to join them in the afterlife. And it’s a very positive scene in the sense of what the person how the person is interacting with the individual. But these are really rare, but they seem to sort of point to mental health issues and suicide ideation. And so, you know, in my studies, I sort of saw how people who had those types of dream has really high forms of trauma symptoms. And then there’s been other people that it’s highly related to complicated grief, and you see it even across cultures, with indigenous people in Georgia. And so their thing is, if someone ever has that type of dream means you’re going to die soon. That’s the myth. And so I think any if you’re in a hunter gatherer, gatherer society, if you’re dealing with trauma, you’re not going to be, your memory is going to be off your cognition is going to be off and reaction time, so I can see you slipping, or it could be that they, you know, they do kill themselves also, and I, and I, you know, when people when we, when we say, ask about these dreams and understand where it is, because if you take if you tell someone, you know, these are dream visits, right? All of a sudden, that person will say, oh, then I’m supposed to kill myself, to go to the afterlife, because this is a positive dream. That’s what I really have to ask, you know, what’s the dream before we label it? Just to know, will that complicate the individual brief in any way? And what are their beliefs? And so, you know, with that, I cannot, I can definitely see people probably have taken their life because of some of these dreams, because they believed it was what they were supposed to do. And in grief, you know, like, our cognition is not the greatest like we are impulse control and reaction time in the sense of what we do. I was about to go to Israel and like dropped out of school, right. So if I had one of those dreams, how easy it is, for someone to just take that next step, because they believe the dream was telling you the truth. And so just being aware that there’s said, like, there’s so many types of dreams, that I’ve seen that I think I am in a privileged position to understand the landscape, which, you know, that’s what I’m really trying to talk about this stuff, because a lot of people only hear certain aspects, and a lot of them are these positive dreams. And that’s beautiful, and it’s great. But there’s also this other landscape that hasn’t been talked about. And that’s sort of the importance of understanding and using discernment, when we sort of talk about these dreams and how people’s beliefs and how they interpret their dreams affect the grief journey.

Brian Smith 48:41
Yeah, that’s some really excellent, another excellent point you made there about that. You know, because it’s interesting as you were telling your your path, how you were doing one thing in your undergrad and then decided to go into psychology and going to dream research my, my daughter, when when my other Shana passed, when my daughter Kayla was in the medical, she was on a path to become a physician’s assistant. And after Shayna passed, she realized this is not really what I want to do. So she she changed. She made she majored in psychology and undergrad, and then they are masters of mental health counseling. So you know, it’s interesting that like, when we’re in grief, we have to be careful about making big decisions, because we don’t, our cognition is not great, but also, it can actually put us on the path that I think that we’re meant to be on. Or us that i think that i think that you know, and you took this dream that you had from your father and you said, Okay, this this changed your life and change your life work. And people might have heard of this. And I was looking at your website before I get on so I’ll give you you know, but I’d heard it before about Paul McCartney. After his mother passed, and everybody knows the song, let it be. And there’s a line in the song. You know, Mother Mary comes me everybody assumes This is the Virgin Mother. But Paul McCartney had a dream of his mother after she Pass, come in ham. And the lyrics are when I find myself in times of trouble Mother Mary comes to me speaking words of wisdom, let it be. And in my hour of darkness, she’s standing right in front of me speaking words of wisdom, let it be whisper words of wisdom and that that song is just so profound. And as he’s relating this dream to James Carville, like 50 years later at James Carville, what’s the guy’s name, going to court and court games, relating it to him 50 years later, you know, you can see him tearing up, I mean, you can see that, that that dream still impacts him to this day. So there’s, I think there’s something very profound about about these these dreams.

Unknown Speaker 50:40
Well, I hear from a lot of people they’ll utilize, they still remember these dreams, you know, 4050 years later, and they still remember how to feel like that feeling of love can still be, you know, they can still look back at that and carry that with them in many ways. And it provides them that comfort as you move forward. And for a lot of times, it’s that thing that actually, when people look back, it can be that thing that really helped them work through their grief in many ways. I’ve had, you know, people that were about to kill themselves have a dream of deceased, you know, talk him out of it. People who are, you know, addicted, had a dream, and it changed them until like, you can see, like, the significant moments and of people’s grief journey. Change because of these dreams. That’s why like, it’s really interesting how a lot of people don’t share them. That was any research on them. Because like, oh, people just resilient? Well, it could be they’re also having these dreams that are helping them become resilient and work through some of the stuff outside of let’s say, you know, traditional means, I think, you know, that is a very beautiful quality of these dreams. And it’s like, why shouldn’t we we should know as much as we can. Because it seems that there is some type of inner knowing or knowledge that is guiding us to how to work through grief. And if we can understand the concept of what’s going on, we could work and help people a lot better in waking life. Because they’re said, there’s so much wisdom, even Mr. Paul McCartney Let it be like, I remember hearing that I was so shocked because I was in love with that song. And now I’m like, wow, like, that makes it even more beautiful. Yeah. And the way he said like, and, and there’s so many. So even on my website, Greek dreams, I’d say there’s so many other points in movies and TV shows that capture these dreams when I started looking. And I said, like starting like every kid, every time I look at a movie or, or comes up, I’m going to write down and like the amount of shows and places where I’ve seen these dreams, you can tell it’s affecting a lot of people that they’re putting it in their movies, and they’re putting in their TV shows in ways that are capturing the importance and the beauty of the topic. For the most part, there are a couple that will put in negative dreams. And I think that’s beautiful, too, because it just showcases and raises awareness. But the beauty of these dreams help change people. I remember one of my just side note, one of my favorite movies growing up was Braveheart. And one of the reasons was my dad’s favorite movie was Braveheart, too. So we always watch it together. And then, you know, I never realized until I was in my master’s program, I put the movie on again. And there’s three grief dreams in there of him dreaming of his deceased wife. And I think that’s probably the record. I haven’t seen more than three right now. But like I go, how interesting that is one of my favorite movies that I was hired to actually had these experiences. And I didn’t even realize it wasn’t conscious of it until after I started, you know, looking for these around. And I think you know, there’s something to say about that. And I think there’s something special about that, just in my own journey where I look back, and like my dad’s tied these dreams. It’s not just I had my own, but it was in one of our favorite movies that we add to

Brian Smith 53:37
that as well. That is really cool. So tell me about what you offer to people I know you’ve got it, you’ve got a course you do one on one work. So

Unknown Speaker 53:45
tell me about what you offer. So to raise awareness, I like I was doing, you know, before the pandemic, I was doing a lot of talks and workshops, and so I kind of stopped and so I decided to do an online course and so it’s nine and a half hours that someone could take and it really helps you understand, you know, some stuff on sleep dreams, but you know, the majority of time grief dreams and all the landscape like we we talked about an hour, so it’s probably another nine hours of like conversation on the topic that we just didn’t go into it because it’s so vast in the sense of what’s there. So if someone wants to learn more and wants to talk about these more, I think that’s a great starting point, you get a certificate at the end of it. And then you’ll feel it’s people who you know, have these negative dreams or just want to talk more about these dreams I offer the one on one group dream consulting, and just you know, it’s just it’s sad there’s not a lot of people that know the information so I’m just trying to help people the best I can understand how a lot of there are a lot of clients that have negative dreams and so it’s really you know, how it applies to waking life and what it’s trying to teach us to move forward with that and then you said like I got the grief dreams podcast so people who want to know more about the just want to hear more of these stories, like that’s the place to go because a lot of the people that come on majority of them have really positive life changing experiences. I I think that’s phenomenal. Even The last guest we had on was in Gara. And she talked about, you know, meeting her thing was her grandfather and she asked what the afterlife and then he told her what the actual life was like, I think that’s kind of cool in the sense of these answers and questions people have about life they they can get from the deceased to so

Brian Smith 55:15
yeah. I love what you’re saying it. And it’s interesting because I’ve studied near death experiences to a fair amount and their grief dreams remind me of that without the trauma, you can have some of these experiences. And I also love the way you put it, you know, you don’t have to believe it’s the afterlife, you might believe its inner wisdom, or the subconscious, whatever, whatever works for you. But there is there is you cannot deny the wisdom of it, you cannot deny the message of it, the beauty of it, and the way that it can transform, you know, people’s lives. So I think the work that you’re doing is just so, so very important. And I love just a short amount of time we’ve been able to spend together today, I’ve learned a lot, you know, in terms of their types of dreams, I didn’t know I didn’t know about the Come with me, you know, dream, you know how maybe we can interpret these negative dreams, I thought you get a great, great example that woman, you know, with, with her husband and the other person in the life, and that’s got to be a really, for no complex situation, you said, trying to, you know, honor your wonders on the other side, but live your life while you’re still here. So seeing that come through in the dream of being able to understand what what the dream is trying to tell you. So it’s all just amazing.

Unknown Speaker 56:29
It absolutely is. And that’s why I love talking about it. And one thing we didn’t mention is how these dreams change over time. So you work through your grief and like so it’s not really your dreams aren’t about grief anymore. And these dreams are the seeds will pop up in time to other needs that you have and times of suffering. So let’s say if you get divorced, or something you may have, or something tragic happens, you may have one of these dreams, and it’s been 10 years since individual died, but they’re offering you support and comfort. I’ve seen a lot in the pandemic now, which is very interesting of how the deceased are coming to offer support in many different ways. Either just being together to reduce the isolation, or to provide them questions are asking how they’re doing in the pandemic, and then an end of life, which is interesting, you’ll start seeing these frames again. And they’re basically helping people transition from life to death. So they’re providing a lot of comfort for the individual in those final final days. And I think it’s, I think that’s one of the other really unique things of this research, or just this topic is that, you know, it’s not just one dream at one moment of life, it’s like, once it happens, it keeps happening and certain moments of your life that are very important. And so like, why did why is that and how come we don’t have those dreams prior? Like that? I don’t know, like, but it is there’s a lot of mystery, a lot of research still needs to be done. So hopefully people know it’s a safe space. Now, I think explore research wise, I think you know, that’s maybe one of the reasons why people didn’t do research prior because it was really tied with the afterlife a lot. But I think it did a really good job to say no, like, everyone’s having these. Let’s just talk about the subject and the non judgmental way. And people can take it as they want. You know, like, I’m not as long as it’s comforting. You know, like, I don’t really care what you take it as it’s when it’s distressing. It, let’s work on that. Because that’s going to cause you to limit what you can do and where you can go with your healing.

Brian Smith 58:13
Yeah, well, you mentioned something that I taken a note and I hadn’t brought it up. But I guess we have a couple more minutes. So I do want to get into it because my father in law at near the end of his life had dementia. And he would he would talk about all these things crazy, like dreamlike things. So my theory was he had lost the separation between dream life and real life. I’m like, I don’t know what was going on with him. But it seemed. But when he would talk about people in his fantasies, they were always deceased, like, consistently, they’re always people who were deceased. And I thought that was a really interesting observation I did not make at the time. But later on, as I look back when I’m like, seeing them back, he was like tapping into the other side as he got as he got closer to the end.

Unknown Speaker 58:58
Yeah. And that, you know, there’s research has been done a lot of research coming out of hospice Buffalo, with Dr. Kerr, and Dr. Pay grant, that are really looking at these end of life dreams and visions. And it’s very hard to separate the two at end of life because their sleep is so sporadic. But, you know, same thing. So they’re having these dream experiences. And sometimes it could be the dream experiences tied into waking life. So it becomes a vision. But yeah, they’re there. And they tend their research found that there’s tend to be an increase in these as they approach the end. And so that in itself is just it’s very fascinating to me, on you know, how these continue to support us and why can’t we have them every day? Like why do they show up this quote unquote, random? I don’t know. And I think you know, that’s, that’s one of those mysteries that you’d have to sort of sit with and be patient and I think if anything like we teach our kids to be patient, I guess these dreams teach us to be patient as adults.

Brian Smith 59:52
Yeah, well, you know, it’s even the whole the word afterlife, you know, because what it to me what it says is consciousness is something that is Bigger than we understand just it’s not just in our brains, there’s something that’s, that’s everything, it’s undeniable, we’re somehow connected to something larger than ourselves or to each other, in some ways that we don’t understand from a materialist point of view. And I love the way you’re going about it academically, it’s not a matter of faith, it’s not a matter of I have to believe this. But also not to shy away from the fact that these things are actually happening. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:27
I’m glad you like that, right. Some people may frown upon some of the stuff I’m doing. And I’ve just because of their belief system, and what they sort of see the extremes to be. And so yeah, it’s just, you know, the love and support that, you know, you give for allowing to be on your platform, and then everyone else, I just sort of thank you all for continuing to raise awareness on the subject, because it’s just so important to my heart, but I know, it’s impacting a lot of people just around the world. And I think for me to do research that’s affecting the world is such a place, I’m in such a place of gratitude, because most people, their research never gets read. And for this, to have an opportunity to actually change the way we support people. You know, in just a matter of doing a master’s in PhD, I think that’s just a remarkable part of where I’m sitting at that, like, you know, like, the legacy of just my father’s is actually moving through the world. Yeah. And for me like that, that means a lot.

Brian Smith 1:01:17
That’s very, very cool. Well, I want to tell people where they can reach you. It’s Dr. Joshua black, and he’s at grief So you can find more questions and answers on his website, the course is available there. You’re available for one on one consulting. So I’m just I’m so thrilled to put this episode out. I think it’s a really important episode that’ll help a lot of people.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:41
Hey, I’m happy but then thank you again for having me on. I really appreciate you valuing the topic.

Brian Smith 1:01:47
Alright, well have a great rest of your day.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:49
Thanks, you too sweet dreams, I hopefully get another one of those dreams tonight.

Brian Smith 1:01:54
So that does it for another episode of grief to growth. I sure hope you enjoyed it. If you like this content, make sure you subscribe. So click on the subscribe button here, and then click on the bell to receive notifications and click on all that way you’ll be notified whenever I release new content. Thanks for watching and have a great day.

Transcribed by

These are my reflections on turning 60 years old. As Joe Walsh said “Life’s Been Good to Me So Far” It’s been a great 60 years. It’s a good time to reflect on where I’ve been and to think about where I want to go.






Brian Smith 0:00
Close your eyes and imagine what are the things in life that causes the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we’ve been buried. But what if, like a seed we’ve been planted, and having been planted, to grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes, open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is grief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. Hey, there want to make this video and say happy birthday to me. Yesterday was my 60th birthday. So I am entering my second seventh decade going around the sun on this planet. Pretty, pretty wild. I never thought I was a little kid that ever end up being here. For some reason I had this fear of death. And I didn’t think I was going to live very long. And I’ve actually lived with that for most of my life. Never thinking I would I would live for a very long time. But I remember as my grandmother said, when we were sitting around the table, I was 16 years old. She said to me, if you live long enough, you get old too. So I’ve hung up hung in there one day at a time every day and made it to 60 I want to say thank you to everyone who reached out to me to reach me happy birthday. I mean, literally they were probably about 500 people maybe more that gave me birthday greetings yesterday, just on Facebook saying Happy birthday or commenting on a post that my wife and I made. It was a fantastic day I want to commemorate or want to just kind of acknowledge or remember the fact that I spent the day my 16th birthday with Kayla and with Tawana. We spent the day together twice and I went to lunch together I picked up a special bottle of bourbon that I managed to acquire yesterday we went to lunch at marline house with Kayla had about a two hour lunch came back. I usually work on my birthday. I always work on my birthday. I did a little bit of work. I did pack some orders in the morning. But when I got back, I decided to take the afternoon off and I watched the movie in the middle of the afternoon. on a Wednesday, my birthday being on the May 26 is just around Memorial Day. So I usually get a long weekend. But this time it had to fall right in the middle of the week. But I decided to block out the day. And just to spend time with with the ones I love. And to take time to commemorate myself think it’s I’ve been going through a transition lately which if you follow me You may know we’ve had treasured locks our haircare products company for 19 years. And ironically, a memory came up on Facebook today that showed the girls standing next to one of our products when we first started the company 19 years ago. And treasure locks has been what sustained us for for a very long time. I’ve been doing it full time for most of that time. It puts Kayla through college it put you know I paid for Shana has her select sports she paid and paid for is paid for most of our house at this point, the cars we’ve had over the years. So it all means it’s been successful. But the thing is the last few years, the business has been slipping off. There’s more competition. There’s a lot of complicated factors. But the business has been going downhill. And I’ve been really struggling with what to do with treasure locks, versus what I feel my passion is which is doing coaching and teaching and doing the podcast. So I’ve been filming, I’ve been torn in two directions. And frankly, it’s easy when you’ve had something that’s been successful, and charge it locks has been extremely successful in the past. But it’s not doing well to feel like you’re kind of a failure. And with the coaching business starting that up, there’s really not much money coming in at this point. So you start to wonder, you know, was it a fluke with treasure lacks, you know, should you be doing this? Should you be doing the coaching business? Where do I put my efforts, and it’s been really a struggle for me.

Now a few things have come up over the last few weeks. And this is what’s really interesting. materially, nothing has really changed in the last few weeks. But a few weeks ago, I was feeling very, very stressed and very much like I was headed in the wrong direction or not going any direction. And all I got I was just treading water. And what I can say is recently that feeling has really changed. I’m looking at treasure blocks. Now it’s been successful. I’ve been successful with it. It has allowed us again, I just said to sustain us and also to put some money in the bank. So I was meeting with my financial planner the other day when I’m turning 60. So it’s like what’s going to go on in the future. And we’re looking at retirement and the good news is we’re we’re in really good shape. So that was the great news so I don’t have to worry so much about trying to get the coaching business off the ground right now are trying to revive treasure lock. So I decided to just look at this as a moment of transition. I’m going to relax in this moment, I’m just going to see what happens. I’m going to trust that doing the right thing will be sustainable that will sustain me. I know the thing is I went ahead in the right direction of coaching, and teaching. That’s the direction I want to go in this direction I’m going to go in. So treasure locks. We’ll see what happens with that over the next couple of years. But I suspect will be kind of phasing that out. And I’m going to see you know how that goes. But that’s the way I’m looking at it right now.

It was funny yesterday, a friend of mine was teasing me. We talked about living for a very long time, and neither one of us really wants to live in a very long time. And so she sent me an article that said something about people could potentially live to 150 years old. And I was telling her I don’t really want to do that. That’s not my desire at all. But I do want to say this, my attitude is really changed. Five years ago, my first birthday after Shayna has Trent had transitioned was really, really tough for me, I did not want to be on this planet to be frank. And to be honest, I didn’t know how I was going to go on the rest of my life. Fast forward five years, and I’m feeling good about where my life is, and where my life is going. And I’ve learned to live with my relationship with Shayna as it is, while maintaining relationships. I also have other people here. And I know that I’m needed here and I know that I have a mission here. And I know that I will go home one day. So I replied to my friend with what have been running through my head all day long, which was a saying by Joe Nuxhall, who’s a baseball player. I live in Cincinnati, he was reds announcer for a while before after as a player. And he said his saying was rounding third and headed for home. And that saying to me as I’ve reached 60 is the way I feel I’m rounding third, I’m headed for home. I’m looking forward to the next however long it is I’m going to be here. I plan to be productive while I’m here. But I know that regardless what happens that I will be heading home someday. And that’s This Week, I’ve been playing a song I love this song by a group called Simple Minds. And song is alive and kicking in. So I kicked off the week Monday playing the song I’m playing it all week. And there’s a verse that talks about the fact that the whole song is about like just staying alive and keeping moving forward, and how we’re sustained by forces greater than us. But one of the verses one of my favorite verses, talks about how the fact that some day that that forces sustain just will not sustain us in this body anymore. And at that point, we will go home. But even when we go home, we’re going back to the source of our love the source where we are so nothing can separate us from that love. Nothing can keep us from that. That’s something that we’re all promised. We know when we come in, we’ve got that to look forward to we’ve got a homecoming to look forward to. So that’s the way that I view my life right now. So at 60 that we have these milestones you know, and every day is a day that you can start over every day is a day that you can change the way you look at things you can change what your what your outlook is you can change what your goals are. But as we reach certain milestones, we tend to reflect more and 60 is a big one, Lisa, this for me. So this is the way that I’m choosing look at 60. Again, rounding third headed for home, done a great job if I never accomplished another thing in my life. I feel like I’ve done what I came here to accomplish. I’ve been married for over 30 years, I’ve had a few jobs, I’ve had a couple different careers I’ve started a company has been successful. Raise two fantastic, beautiful, smart, compassionate, caring, sensitive girls. Kayla, I am so proud of couldn’t be any more proud of her. Shana, you know, we’re working on the relationship that we have seen as so as the driving force behind what I’m doing and where I’m going in my life. I’ve got a great relationship with Ty, we’ve, we’ve we’ve made it through, you know, 30 years. So if I don’t accomplish anything else, I feel like I’ve accomplished a lot. And I want to let everyone know that I’m grateful for you that have been part of my life. And for the people I will continue to touch in the future for the rest of the time that I have here. So I hope that this has been made some sense to you. It’s not just totally self indulgent, that it may inspire you, along your journey with what you’ve got to go through may help you to look at things a little bit different if you’re going through difficult times. And you feel like there’s no way that you can make it that you’ll never be happy again. No, the other people felt that way. I have felt that way myself. And you can make it through and you can come out the other side, and that you will be triumphant no matter what. So, thanks for listening and have a great day. And if you have any questions you’d like me to answer on the podcast with him, please let me know. If you want to talk to me one on one, go to my website and you can go all the way to the bottom of the page. You can schedule a time to talk with me one on one, or you can click on the schedule appointment at the top of the page. Thanks for listening and have a great day. So that does it for another episode of grief to growth. I sure hope you enjoyed it. If you like this content, make sure you subscribe, so click on the subscribe button here, and then click on the bell to receive notifications and click on all. That way you’ll be notified whenever I release new content. Thanks for watching and have a great day.

Transcribed by

Do we get to choose when we die? If we don’t choose, who does? Is it God? Is it me? Is it random? Which answer resonates with you? Which answer has evidence to support it?

This is a question from a listener. If you’d like to have a question answered, let me know. So far, I haven’t gotten any easy questions. But, I’ll take a swing at anything you want to ask.

If you have a question you’d like me to answer, drop me a line and I’ll include it in a future episode.

If you’d like to talk to me privately, I’m available for one-on-one consultation.  Uou can book a session here:




Brian Smith 0:00
Close your eyes and imagine

what are the things in life that causes the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we’ve been buried. But what if, like a seed we’ve been planted, and having been planted, to grow to become a mighty tree? Now, open your eyes, open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is brief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. Hey there, what does it answer a question that I got from one of my listeners slash viewers. So I appreciate you guys interacting with the last video, I deal with the questions and I’ll keep these going as long as you’re interested in it. And this is a you guys don’t ask easy questions. This is a question though that’s very common that comes up and I’m gonna, I’m gonna frame the question that number, I think, maybe expand it a little bit. So the question is, when we cross over when we when our bodies stop functioning, when we die, to put it simply, do we have a choice of coming back? We have heard reports of people who have had near death experiences that have been given choices, or been given a choice to come back and they’ve chosen to come back. We’ve also though, frankly been told the people who have been given a choice to come back or have not given a choice. And we’re just sent back. So the question that this was prompted by the fact that this person’s loved one their their son, passed in a similar way to my daughter. He was a young man. Sudden, unexplained death. My daughter was young, she was 15, sudden, unexplained death. And so when we hear someone who’s had a near death experience, and been given the choice to come back, we think, well, this person was so young and vibrant, and love life so much. Why weren’t they given a choice to come back, because I know they would have chosen to come back. So the thing is, frankly, we don’t know that they would have chosen to come back we have heard people, even people who were mothers had young children that were here that were given a choice or not given a choice, but were told you know that they had to come back and they decided they wanted to stay because it was so great there and they knew everything was here was going to be okay. So we don’t really know what we would choose or what our loved one would choose if they had been given the choice. And frankly, we can’t know if everyone gets a choice. Because it’s a said, we know that some people don’t get a choice, and they’re sitting back without having a choice. We don’t know if people cross over and don’t have a choice and are required to stay. And so one reason when that might be required to stay is that their body can’t sustain life. So if your body can’t sustain life, then of course, you wouldn’t be able to come back. So I want to take this question of whether this person may given a choice and I want to expand it a little bit to do we choose when we die?

Because this I think is the broader question. Do we do we choose when we die? And if and so let’s go through this. So I always like to start off with as what do we know? So we’re gonna start off with what do we know for sure, we know for sure that 100% of the people that are born will die. There’s there are no exceptions. If you’re born, you die, you’re going to die. That is the plan. The questions are where are when and how does the things that are variables, but birth comes with 100% chance of death, the number one cause of death is birth. So we know that and you know, so we sometimes get upset about the timing of things, we get upset about the way things happen. But we know that death is inevitable. So the thing is, do we choose when we die? And so let’s look at what the let’s look at what the options are as with the evidence for each of those. So one option would be that it’s random universe is just a random place. Things happen. And we come in and we die whenever, whenever we die. And we can look at the evidence for that. And someone can make a case. Yeah, it seems to be pretty random. Another option that we might look at is that God determines it. So God determines when we’re when we die. And I know people that believe this. And for some people, this causes them great anger, because God has chosen to take a loved one earlier than we thought they should have. For some people. This brings them great comfort, that God in His infinite wisdom decides when it’s a right time for us to go. And people accept that and it’s okay with them. That one doesn’t really work for me. But if it works for you, then fine. I was visiting with someone just a couple days ago, that had a loved one that passed suddenly very young. And they were comforted by the fact that they believe in God’s divine timing. And the guy determined that so it could be random. It could be God. It could be that we Choose, either alone are in cooperation with a team of on the other side. So this is an interesting thing, because we can clearly see as the human part of us zoom inside of us that we don’t choose, we see people die in accidents, we see people fighting to live, and we see them dying anyway. So we know the evidence doesn’t show that the human part of chooses when we die, but there is the possibility that we choose as our higher self as our soul, if you want to call it that as our oversoul. And as a possibility that we choose when were in spirit, when we’re going to die, and we plan that out. So these are the options that it’s it’s random, that is chosen by God that we choose, it could be pre determined, it could be freewill. So these are the options. So what what is the evidence for each of these scenarios. And so the evidence random, as I’ve already stated, is pretty much there, you can make the case that is random, it certainly looks random from outside perspective, the evidence that God chooses, you know, there’s no way to really know that. That is a that is a belief. And you could say that maybe based on scripture, somebody might say that God knows the, the number of hairs on our head and the days of our lives. So that could you could call that evidence or something that might lead us in that direction. When it comes to whether we choose or not, I believe there’s a great deal of evidence for this. And this is what I believe we’ve had people that have had between life regressions, where they’ll go back to when they’re and lead life between life. And they’ll remember planning their life out and how things were supposed to go. We’ve had you know, mediums tell us or people coming through mediums telling us that it was determined when they were ago that there was nothing that can be done about it. We’ve had people who’ve had near death experiences that have said everything is just as it should be. And that we we are, it’s determined when we’re going to go. I remember Dr. Mary Neal, when she had her near death experience when she was in spirit, she was told that her son would die at a very early age, I believe was around 18. And it was about 10 years from when she had this experience. And know in spite of whatever she did, or whatever she believed, or whatever it did come to pass that her son did did pass at that time, I happen to know someone who was an intuitive and medium who says that she knows when people are going to transition, including herself and her loved ones. And so in that case, at least what she’s reported to me, there’s really no choice. But there’s some people that have said that we have multiple exit points, that there are multiple points in our life where we might have, we might choose to go. But we can’t apparently go past that last exit point. So that’s, that’s pretty determined.

So the thing is, whichever these things we choose to believe, we can find some amount of evidence for it. I think the preponderance of the evidence points to the fact that somehow that we choose either when we’re in spirit before we come here, or as our higher self, how long we’re going to be here. And I think we choose it that way. And it may not it may not fit in with what our human point of view is, you may you might say, well, who would choose to pass it at 15, for example, who would choose the pass as as an infant, and in some cases, even our people have had children that pass in their 30s or 40s, and that their life was too short. And who would choose that so as our human self, we probably wouldn’t choose that. But as our higher self and seeing the bigger picture, we might choose that for the benefit of our soul for this incarnation, and or for the benefit of our loved ones. Another thing I want to say while I’m talking about this is I think it’s very important is especially with young people, we view their their transition as a tragedy, that their life was cut short that they weren’t able to enjoy their life, and that they should be here and enjoying all the great things about life. Well, there’s a couple of things that’s that’s actually kind of wrong with that point of view. And I want to play with Azhar, first of all, their lives were not cut short. They, we when we transition continue to live, in fact, we live more abundantly a better life. So when we think about our loved ones, and we think about what they’re quote missing, keep in mind that they’re not really missing anything that they have, they have moved on they have graduated, I would call it to to a higher level. The other thing is that kind of comes from the point of view that this one life is all there is where it’s a one and done point of view. So if you’re going to come to this earth, you would think you want to stay here as long as possible to get the most out of it as possible, because you only have one shot. Now, again, you might you might believe that. I believe there’s enough evidence to show that we come to this earth over and over and over again. And that it’s not just one shot. So in any one life, that life life happens to be short or tragic or full of pain or whatever. Our souls don’t view that as a loss because it’s just one experience out of many. So those are my views on whether we choose when we die, who chooses when we die. And we can examine those. And you can examine those and determine, first of all, which one makes the most sense to you, which one has the most evidence for for it. The other thing is, try each one on because we can’t, frankly, really know this for a fact, while we’re here. So try it out what makes you feel comfortable, what brings you peace, what brings you joy, and if any of them, don’t bring you peace, and jump, don’t bring you joy, then you don’t have to choose to believe that there are other options you can choose that do have evidence, I’m not just saying choose which one feels best to you, or makes you feel the best. I don’t think it’s all about wishful thinking. For me, I feel more empowered by knowing that there’s a plan that I participated in the plan, not that just God impose this on me. And God put me here and said, This is what you’re going to do. But it’s a cooperative thing. It’s where we are co creators in our lives. And even though things happen in my life, that human Brian, my ego, might not like, I choose to trust the things that happen for me or for my own best good. And for the best good of everybody and everything in the universe, in spite of how it might look right now. And that’s what brings me peace. And that is what I found, frankly, a lot of evidence for. So those are my thoughts again, I like to hear what your thoughts are. What am I saying that might be right, but when you might say that might be wrong. And any other questions you have, just let me know. So have a great day and I’ll see you soon. So that does it for another episode of grief to growth. I sure hope you enjoyed it. If you like this content, make sure you subscribe, so click on the subscribe button here, and then click on the bell to receive notifications and click on all that way you’ll be notified whenever I release new content. Thanks for watching, and have a great day.

Transcribed by

Brian Smith 0:00
Close your eyes and imagine

what are the things in life that causes the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we’ve been buried. But what if, like a seed we’ve been planted, and having been planted, to grow to become a mighty tree? Now, open your eyes, open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is brief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. Hey there, what does it answer a question that I got from one of my listeners slash viewers. So I appreciate you guys interacting with the last video, I deal with the questions and I’ll keep these going as long as you’re interested in it. And this is a you guys don’t ask easy questions. This is a question though that’s very common that comes up and I’m gonna, I’m gonna frame the question that number, I think, maybe expand it a little bit. So the question is, when we cross over when we when our bodies stop functioning, when we die, to put it simply, do we have a choice of coming back? We have heard reports of people who have had near death experiences that have been given choices, or been given a choice to come back and they’ve chosen to come back. We’ve also though, frankly been told the people who have been given a choice to come back or have not given a choice. And we’re just sent back. So the question that this was prompted by the fact that this person’s loved one their their son, passed in a similar way to my daughter. He was a young man. Sudden, unexplained death. My daughter was young, she was 15, sudden, unexplained death. And so when we hear someone who’s had a near death experience, and been given the choice to come back, we think, well, this person was so young and vibrant, and love life so much. Why weren’t they given a choice to come back, because I know they would have chosen to come back. So the thing is, frankly, we don’t know that they would have chosen to come back we have heard people, even people who were mothers had young children that were here that were given a choice or not given a choice, but were told you know that they had to come back and they decided they wanted to stay because it was so great there and they knew everything was here was going to be okay. So we don’t really know what we would choose or what our loved one would choose if they had been given the choice. And frankly, we can’t know if everyone gets a choice. Because it’s a said, we know that some people don’t get a choice, and they’re sitting back without having a choice. We don’t know if people cross over and don’t have a choice and are required to stay. And so one reason when that might be required to stay is that their body can’t sustain life. So if your body can’t sustain life, then of course, you wouldn’t be able to come back. So I want to take this question of whether this person may given a choice and I want to expand it a little bit to do we choose when we die?

Because this I think is the broader question. Do we do we choose when we die? And if and so let’s go through this. So I always like to start off with as what do we know? So we’re gonna start off with what do we know for sure, we know for sure that 100% of the people that are born will die. There’s there are no exceptions. If you’re born, you die, you’re going to die. That is the plan. The questions are where are when and how does the things that are variables, but birth comes with 100% chance of death, the number one cause of death is birth. So we know that and you know, so we sometimes get upset about the timing of things, we get upset about the way things happen. But we know that death is inevitable. So the thing is, do we choose when we die? And so let’s look at what the let’s look at what the options are as with the evidence for each of those. So one option would be that it’s random universe is just a random place. Things happen. And we come in and we die whenever, whenever we die. And we can look at the evidence for that. And someone can make a case. Yeah, it seems to be pretty random. Another option that we might look at is that God determines it. So God determines when we’re when we die. And I know people that believe this. And for some people, this causes them great anger, because God has chosen to take a loved one earlier than we thought they should have. For some people. This brings them great comfort, that God in His infinite wisdom decides when it’s a right time for us to go. And people accept that and it’s okay with them. That one doesn’t really work for me. But if it works for you, then fine. I was visiting with someone just a couple days ago, that had a loved one that passed suddenly very young. And they were comforted by the fact that they believe in God’s divine timing. And the guy determined that so it could be random. It could be God. It could be that we Choose, either alone are in cooperation with a team of on the other side. So this is an interesting thing, because we can clearly see as the human part of us zoom inside of us that we don’t choose, we see people die in accidents, we see people fighting to live, and we see them dying anyway. So we know the evidence doesn’t show that the human part of chooses when we die, but there is the possibility that we choose as our higher self as our soul, if you want to call it that as our oversoul. And as a possibility that we choose when were in spirit, when we’re going to die, and we plan that out. So these are the options that it’s it’s random, that is chosen by God that we choose, it could be pre determined, it could be freewill. So these are the options. So what what is the evidence for each of these scenarios. And so the evidence random, as I’ve already stated, is pretty much there, you can make the case that is random, it certainly looks random from outside perspective, the evidence that God chooses, you know, there’s no way to really know that. That is a that is a belief. And you could say that maybe based on scripture, somebody might say that God knows the, the number of hairs on our head and the days of our lives. So that could you could call that evidence or something that might lead us in that direction. When it comes to whether we choose or not, I believe there’s a great deal of evidence for this. And this is what I believe we’ve had people that have had between life regressions, where they’ll go back to when they’re and lead life between life. And they’ll remember planning their life out and how things were supposed to go. We’ve had you know, mediums tell us or people coming through mediums telling us that it was determined when they were ago that there was nothing that can be done about it. We’ve had people who’ve had near death experiences that have said everything is just as it should be. And that we we are, it’s determined when we’re going to go. I remember Dr. Mary Neal, when she had her near death experience when she was in spirit, she was told that her son would die at a very early age, I believe was around 18. And it was about 10 years from when she had this experience. And know in spite of whatever she did, or whatever she believed, or whatever it did come to pass that her son did did pass at that time, I happen to know someone who was an intuitive and medium who says that she knows when people are going to transition, including herself and her loved ones. And so in that case, at least what she’s reported to me, there’s really no choice. But there’s some people that have said that we have multiple exit points, that there are multiple points in our life where we might have, we might choose to go. But we can’t apparently go past that last exit point. So that’s, that’s pretty determined.

So the thing is, whichever these things we choose to believe, we can find some amount of evidence for it. I think the preponderance of the evidence points to the fact that somehow that we choose either when we’re in spirit before we come here, or as our higher self, how long we’re going to be here. And I think we choose it that way. And it may not it may not fit in with what our human point of view is, you may you might say, well, who would choose to pass it at 15, for example, who would choose the pass as as an infant, and in some cases, even our people have had children that pass in their 30s or 40s, and that their life was too short. And who would choose that so as our human self, we probably wouldn’t choose that. But as our higher self and seeing the bigger picture, we might choose that for the benefit of our soul for this incarnation, and or for the benefit of our loved ones. Another thing I want to say while I’m talking about this is I think it’s very important is especially with young people, we view their their transition as a tragedy, that their life was cut short that they weren’t able to enjoy their life, and that they should be here and enjoying all the great things about life. Well, there’s a couple of things that’s that’s actually kind of wrong with that point of view. And I want to play with Azhar, first of all, their lives were not cut short. They, we when we transition continue to live, in fact, we live more abundantly a better life. So when we think about our loved ones, and we think about what they’re quote missing, keep in mind that they’re not really missing anything that they have, they have moved on they have graduated, I would call it to to a higher level. The other thing is that kind of comes from the point of view that this one life is all there is where it’s a one and done point of view. So if you’re going to come to this earth, you would think you want to stay here as long as possible to get the most out of it as possible, because you only have one shot. Now, again, you might you might believe that. I believe there’s enough evidence to show that we come to this earth over and over and over again. And that it’s not just one shot. So in any one life, that life life happens to be short or tragic or full of pain or whatever. Our souls don’t view that as a loss because it’s just one experience out of many. So those are my views on whether we choose when we die, who chooses when we die. And we can examine those. And you can examine those and determine, first of all, which one makes the most sense to you, which one has the most evidence for for it. The other thing is, try each one on because we can’t, frankly, really know this for a fact, while we’re here. So try it out what makes you feel comfortable, what brings you peace, what brings you joy, and if any of them, don’t bring you peace, and jump, don’t bring you joy, then you don’t have to choose to believe that there are other options you can choose that do have evidence, I’m not just saying choose which one feels best to you, or makes you feel the best. I don’t think it’s all about wishful thinking. For me, I feel more empowered by knowing that there’s a plan that I participated in the plan, not that just God impose this on me. And God put me here and said, This is what you’re going to do. But it’s a cooperative thing. It’s where we are co creators in our lives. And even though things happen in my life, that human Brian, my ego, might not like, I choose to trust the things that happen for me or for my own best good. And for the best good of everybody and everything in the universe, in spite of how it might look right now. And that’s what brings me peace. And that is what I found, frankly, a lot of evidence for. So those are my thoughts again, I like to hear what your thoughts are. What am I saying that might be right, but when you might say that might be wrong. And any other questions you have, just let me know. So have a great day and I’ll see you soon. So that does it for another episode of grief to growth. I sure hope you enjoyed it. If you like this content, make sure you subscribe, so click on the subscribe button here, and then click on the bell to receive notifications and click on all that way you’ll be notified whenever I release new content. Thanks for watching, and have a great day.

Transcribed by

Emily Thiroux Threatt is the author of Loving and Living Your Way Through Grief: A Comprehensive Guide to Reclaiming and Cultivating Joy and Carrying on in the Face of Loss.

Having gone through the experience of two husbands die, as well as the deaths of her father, mother, sister, many family members and friends, Emily has much experience in the grieving process and has learned to face life with love, optimism, and joy. Her mission is to comfort and support those dealing with grief and loss focusing on positivity.

She earned a master’s degree in English with a concentration in writing which led to her career teaching writing at the university level, so she naturally turned to writing to deal with her grief. She also is teaching those dealing with loss how to use writing to deal with their grief.

When she’s not writing, you can find her tending to her garden, creating art, and walking on the beach.

You can find Emily at:



Brian Smith 0:00
Close your eyes and imagine what are the things in life that causes the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we’ve been buried, but what if, like a seed we’ve been planted and having been planted, to grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is grief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. Hey everybody, this is Brian Smith. I’m back with another episode of grief to growth I’ve got with me today Emily throw threat. And Emily is author of the book loving and living your way through grief, a comprehensive guide to reclaiming and cultivating joy and carrying on the face of loss. Emily has gone through the experience of having two husbands pass away, as well as the death of her father, her mother or sister, many family members and friends. So Emily has had much experience in the grieving process and has learned to face life with love, optimism and joy. And our mission is to comfort and support those dealing with grief loss and grief and loss focusing on positivity. Emily’s are the master’s degree in English with the concentration of writing, which led to her career teaching writing at the university level. So she naturally turned to writing to deal with their grief. She also is teaching those dealing with loss how to use writing to deal with their grief. And when you when she’s not ready, you can find her tending to her garden, creating art and walking on the beach because Emily lives in Hawaii. So with that, I want to welcome Emily throw threat.

Emily Thiroux Threatt 1:44
Aloha. I’m happy to be here today. Thank You for Your welcome.

Brian Smith 1:47
Yeah, it’s great to meet you, Emily. And we were talking earlier, you live in beautiful Hawaii. So I’m sure that the weather is nice Thursday. So glad to have you here. I want to just talk to you a little bit about your background and how you got involved in writing about grief. What What brought you to this subject?

Emily Thiroux Threatt 2:06
Well, as you said, I’ve had two husbands die. And the my first husband that died was a philosophy professor and his special with ethics, specifically dealing with death and dying. And so the whole time we were together, everything seemed to be about death and dying. And he taught a class that was required for all the nursing students at the college where he was with helping nursing students learn how to deal with death and dying. And he even had been with Elisabeth Kubler Ross and he’d been around a long time, he was instrumental in bringing hospice to the community that we lived in. At that time that that just went hospice was first getting developed across the country. So I say all that because we really kind of immersed him in all things related to death and dying during that time. And he was he had health problems for probably really bad for the last five years of his life, the last two years. Jake, and I kind of could feel and we talked about everything, but he never talked about dying. And he had written an ethics textbook many, many years ago, that would get revised every he would revise it every two years because it was used internationally. And he had been struggling trying to get this last edition out. But he was doing because it was physically hard for him to do things. So we’ve been working on it together. And the morning that he finished it, he was so happy. And it was the first time we were able to submit it electronically. So we submitted it, and we call this editor and we were celebrating and it was all all a really great thing. And he was so happy to get this thing accomplished. And then right after that we are gonna have lunch, and then he was going to his dialysis treatment. And while he was having lunch, he said to me, am I going to get better? And I thought, you know, all these thoughts went through my mind all at once. I thought in all this time, it was all his background and everything else. He didn’t realize he wasn’t doing all these medical things to get better, that he was going to get cured and be back to who he was before. And we were always honest with each other and I just said no. And I think it dawned on him at that point that that that was what was happening. And within about an hour when I was working to get him into the car to go to dialysis. You just died. Wow. So I think he he once once the realisation came to him that he was never gonna feel better than I was. He was right then that he was ready to go And he hadn’t been until then he just kept thinking, you know, I’ll just do all the things that doctors tell me to and eat the way I’m supposed to behave the way I’m supposed to. And I’ll get well.

Brian Smith 5:09
Wow. So it’s Do you think maybe on some level he knew are he was? That’s that’s a really interesting question to ask.

Emily Thiroux Threatt 5:19
I think. I think it was trying to get his book done. And that was his goal. And when he got his book finished, he was he was ready to be finished. But as I said, we haven’t talked about it, which I find is kind of strange. And boy, after he was gone, I was so lost. We’d been married for 22 years. And I just, frankly, didn’t know what to do with myself. And it took about a year before I started to come out of it and really be functioning again.

Brian Smith 5:57
Yeah. So did his the work that he had done. Did that help you at all? Were you involved in the work that he was doing?

Emily Thiroux Threatt 6:04
He was involved with with what he did, we were very active in getting people to find to sign durable power of attorney for health care, so that they could have their wishes carried out when the time came. And he had, we both had ours filled out and we both had DNR Do Not Resuscitate that, you know if it was our time, it was our time. Yeah. And ironically, when he died, he was in the process of getting into the car, he sat down on a seat. He looked at me and he said, I won’t repeat it because it’s not good language. But he looked at me like he realized what was happening at that moment. And then he was gone. And in the process, he slid down between the seat and the dashboard. And he was stuck, absolutely stuck. And I couldn’t get out. I couldn’t do anything. I wasn’t sure what to do. And the only thing I could think of was to dial 911. And after I did that, I thought shoot, he’s a DNR, that was not what I was supposed to do. But I didn’t know who else to call, right. It wasn’t a neighbor home around us. Anybody if there just wasn’t anybody to call. So when they got there, it was really hard for them to get them out of the car. And when they got him out, laid him down on the driveway. They saw that his he was in atrial fibrillation. And so they decided to resuscitate him. And I said, Wait, he’s got a DNR and I said we have it and I goes, Well, I can go and find it. And they said we can’t wait and they started it. So they went ahead and did that and took him to the hospital. But he was gone. There was there was no question that he was already gone. So it was it was quite an experience. But I I don’t think he really went the way he wanted to. I think he wanted to be more vital by the time you land that he had just really deteriorated, deteriorated over two years with two heart surgeries and dialysis and congestive heart failure and all kinds of things like that.

Brian Smith 8:12
So do you feel like were you somewhat prepared for his passing? Or?

Emily Thiroux Threatt 8:17
Well, I knew he was I had been thinking for probably five years that any time he would be gone. I didn’t know specifically when that was going to happen that so I think I was I was preparing for it. I was thinking about Okay, what am I going to do when is gone? And how am I going to handle things. And we did things like fixing up the house because it needed some painting and freshening and that sort of thing. And so while while he was going through all this, we were working on cleaning up the house and letting go with stuff. I was getting rid of stuff like crazy because I just I knew when the time came, I didn’t want to deal with it. Then I wanted everything to be clean and orderly and to have health things just stuff to be gone. And that’s that’s kind of how I was dealing with it in the process because I never knew he had been admitted to the hospital so many different times and emergency situations that I never knew when that was going to be right. We had one kind of might find a little humor in it. He liked Prince the performer prints for songs and he just was crazy about him and he happened to be coming to the community that we lived in for a concert. And so we bought us tickets, you go to a concert, we’re gonna get you in and out of the theater. He was determined to go so we went and it turned out the town that there was a town with the city was Bakersfield in California at that time was not exactly Prince oriented, more cowboy Country Music oriented. And so they hadn’t really sold enough tickets and I guess of the ticket, they gave away a lot of tickets. And they still didn’t have that many people in this big arena. Well, and Prince was not happy about it. So he refused to go on until they got more people there. And I happen to know that the stage crew because I have a theater myself and was new the the all the tech people in town. And they told me that they were told to call everybody they knew and tell them come down canal for free, we just have to fill up the house for prints. Yeah, for prints. So about an hour after he was supposed to start, he finally came out and did his concert in it. I don’t think it was the full length that was supposed to be and what I think I got him out of the car and got him home. And there was a message on the phone from the doctor. He’d had lab work that afternoon. And they said, you have to come to the emergency room immediately. And this was like six hours before because of all this length of time we’ve been dealing with getting to the concert and sitting through it and getting them home and everything. Oh my gosh, what’s happening? And so I took them over and they said, Oh, we’ve been waiting for you. And we got a minute Tara data’s potassium is really high. And when your potassium is high, you can just die. That’s how they do executions. Yeah, right died very quickly. And fortunately, we did get that get in there in time, and they were able to get it balanced out. But that was always one crisis after another was happening. So I kept thinking, Is this it? Is this when it’s going to be you know, what’s going to happen? And finally, it didn’t happen.

Brian Smith 11:40
So did you start writing about grief after his passing? Or was it later than that?

Emily Thiroux Threatt 11:45
It was after my second husband to die. That was it my writing because I just, I really didn’t know what to do. I was at the time I was teaching at at the university teaching mine at university. So I go to work, and come home and sit basically, and then go to work and come home and serve and just, I just felt kind of blank for a really long time. And I had journaled before then but I just didn’t feel like journaling at that point. Yeah. But things were so different with with my next test, and I never getting like get married again, I just didn’t, you know, I’ve been married and that I was happy with that. But then I met somebody who was we were perfect for each other. And they were his opposite is they could have been shocked that my husband I was just talking about was much older than I am. And he was, as I said a philosopher and he had been Catholic, but he had turned agnostic and almost almost not believing in anything at all, which was a huge transition for him. But with studying philosophy, that’s that’s where Ron, my, my next husband, and chocolates, French, Italian. And when my next husband was so different from that he happened to be a religious science minister. He was he was African American. And he was absolutely brilliant. He had three master’s degrees and had done the most amazing things with his life. And we had an amazing conversations. And I learned so much for him and really learn to live a different way. And we really focused on living in the moment. And by doing that, even when he was having his health challenges, everything was okay. And we knew it was okay. And we knew that when he left it was going to be okay. And then I didn’t need to worry about anything. And we just really focused on love. I learned to let go of fear because I think that was something that was really holding me back when shock died was I was always afraid of everything I sold her house and moved someplace else because it was afraid of the neighbors and fear was kind of driving me so with with Ron that I really can say I don’t really deal with fear anymore. And I focus on on love and very much on living in a moment.

Yeah, it made it easier to do so. After, you know when Ron first died, and his whole process was pretty amazing and beautiful. But when when I found myself alone and thinking okay, now, exactly how am I gonna do this because we moved to Hawaii two years before he died because he lived here a long time ago. And he loved Maui and we visited it. We came here on our honeymoon and then visited it, like twice a year. And finally, so why do we keep going back? Why can’t we just so we sold her house and bought a house here all within the period of about a week, my wife made a phenomenal profit on our house that we had no idea that that was going to happen, because we’d only had it for about five years. And it was it made it so that the transition to move over here was no problem. And it was really great living here for those two years. But I wasn’t really sure what I was supposed to do. And what I what I found myself focusing on was okay, what’s my purpose now? Because you’re been spending so much of my life taking care of children, husbands, and now I don’t have a husband to take care of what am I supposed to be doing? I really felt like finding my life purpose was was very important. And so I thought, well, I’m gonna write about it. And I wasn’t writing to anybody, I was just journaling. And I wrote, and I wrote, and I wrote, and the more I wrote, the more clear things became, and what I discovered was, in trying to learn more things about grief, or dealing with grief, that most of the things that I was picking up, or the groups that I found online, were also sad. And, you know, people tend to be just really sad, and under the situation, totally understandable. But I, I felt like I didn’t want to live the rest of my life being sad, that I wanted to find a way to to find joy, to find happiness, and to have this purpose of what I was supposed to be doing. And so I found myself writing about this, where do I find joy at this point in my life, when what is good? What can I do? And I, I, with my writing, it was helping me so much that I started teaching writing, I just put was funny. I happen to notice and meetup online, because I didn’t know that many people this fall, we’d been in Hawaii, I was mostly home with him. And I just said, if you’re dealing with grief, and you’d like to learn how you can deal with it through writing, come on over to my house on the stand time and I had about seven people show up. And we became a real tight little group, we were first starting to meet once a month. And then they said, We liked it so much, can’t we meet more often. So we were meeting twice a month, and it was going really well until the pandemic hit. And the people that were involved were not real computer people. So I took the group online and still had a group online, but then it’s only got a couple of the initial people because of that, I think I think when we can start meeting again, those initial people are going to be coming back. So yeah, they really liked it. But I still do every every Saturday morning, I do a zoom group online, where we felt like good, and I was enjoying that. But I got to the point where I need to be doing more. Yeah. And about then a really close friend of Ron, who still lived in Ventura. And was bout 20 years younger than than Ron. And perfectly healthy. We were family friends. They lived a couple blocks away from us in Ventura. And he just died one day. Wow.

And the first thing I thought about was his wife is going to have no idea what to do that and what she needs to think about what she doesn’t need to think about what to focus on. And so I wrote her, I sat down, wrote her letter, and I thought, you know, and this was just a few hours, maybe six, eight hours after he died. When I found out I wrote it. I knew if I mailed it from Hawaii, it could take up to a week to get there. And I wanted her to have it right then I knew if I emailed it to her she wasn’t going to be on the computer right now. Right? So I emailed it to a mutual friend of ours who lived close to her and said, Could you please print this off and take it to her now? And she did. And she told me later on it that that letter meant the world to her because she hadn’t thought about any of these things. And she didn’t mean didn’t know what she needed to be concerned about and what she didn’t need to be concerned about. So she she said it was so helpful, and she had two daughters. One was a senior in high school and the other one was a sophomore in college. And she said when she realized that each one of them needed to know what I had written in that letter that she read it out loud to them, just Just the two of them in that it helped them to and so I decided I had to do more than one letter was nice, but I had to do more. So I decided that I was going to say Send her something every week in the mail for the first year. And I had done something similar to that was a friend who had had breast cancer a couple years before it, where I just i’d either call or email or do something every week just to support her while she was going through all the therapy and treatment. And she really, really appreciated it. And I thought it was my relationship with Laurie the new little that with her, it would be better to send her something in the mail every week. And so I take pictures on Maui all the time. And I put a different picture on the front of each card. And then inside, I thought, What am I going to write. So I sat down and in about a day and a half, I had written a content for 52 different cards that kind of took her through the first year, the different things that she thinking about the further and further away she got from when you die. And she she just she cherished them. She said, you know, gonna get her going. It was something to look forward to every week, she knew that was going to be some comfort coming in the mail. And I told my step granddaughter about that, and shocks, granddaughter, that I had done that. And she told me that a good family friend of theirs had just had the same situation. They weren’t that old, and he just died suddenly. And she was so concerned about his widow, and I told her what I was doing. She said, Could you meet me? I said of those cards, too. Wow. So I did and open I was and it took quite a while to print them on the computer and cut them and fold them and do all the stuff you have to do. Well, obviously, in the process of doing that, I thought I’m just gonna listen to a podcast. And I had a friend here on the island that did a podcast that I knew that I liked your podcast. So I picked one of them out that she was stealing. And I felt like I could really relate to the person that she was interviewing. I really liked it. And she had written a book and I thought I’m going to order a book. So while I was making these cards, I went on to her website, and at the bottom of the website, she said, and also I am a book agent. So if you have an idea for a book, give me you know, let me know. So I said, Hmm. I have an outline already written. He could have 52 chapters. Yeah. And so I emailed her right then. And by the end of the day, I had an agent and worked with her. And then then the book came to fruition and was published in January now.

Brian Smith 22:34
Wow, that that’s that is an incredible sequence of events. So I have to ask you, so you start with Jacques, he was kind of an atheist, I think a materialist. And so I was like with Ron, he was much more spiritual. How is your spirituality evolved over this time?

Emily Thiroux Threatt 22:53
Well, I’ll take that back a while for me, because I was raised in a very small town and a very fundamentalist church. And even as a youngster, I just couldn’t quite buy what they were saying. It just didn’t resonate with me. And I ended up on in junior high school, going to the youth group at another church in town where my girlfriend was going, and mom, dad, so that was fine. And the people from the church that I was going to with my girlfriend, called my parents to say, you know, your daughter’s here and doesn’t she go to your church and this sort of thing. My mom got so mad at the whole thing. She goes, You can’t go back to that church again. And I thought here I found someplace where I thought was safe and good and kind and people there were doing that. And so I thought, you know, not doing church. I think it’s a people that are problem. It’s not what they were talking about, or what they believed that it was the people. So after that, I came I I knew there was there was more to life than what I’ve been taught in those two churches. And that there was more than I needed to know. And I felt like I was spiritual, but didn’t really understand what that meant. So when I’m married, Shaka was no problem because he wasn’t going to church, and I wasn’t going to church. But I always knew there was something more something that I was missing. That wasn’t there. And once I met Ron, and we started talking about him and his beliefs, so many that I thought now this makes a whole lot more sense to me to believe that, essentially, God, to me is everything everywhere. Everyone’s God, and everything is love. And the only real two emotions in life are love and fear. And I chose love and that’s where I wanted to focus my life. And so when I was writing the book, everything’s focused on love there. And I can I can fully up I understand other religions and other refle beliefs, and I fully respect them. But I feel very comfortable in in my own spirituality and don’t feel like I need to be associated with an official religion or something in order to practice it.

Brian Smith 25:19
Yeah. So having gone through this experience twice of having husbands that were ill, that you cared for, and then having them ultimately transition Do you feel like it was, you learn something from the first one that you applied to the second time, or salutely?

Emily Thiroux Threatt 25:40
It was, it was interesting one, when I met Ron, he wasn’t, he didn’t have health problems. And I knew about I knew they had high blood pressure, which was common in his situation. But he’d been taking medication for it for years and was fine. And he, he, so I didn’t, I didn’t realize that he had any kind of health challenges. And he didn’t really either. And it turned out that he had the same two health challenges that jack had had. Well, they both had heart failure that ultimately led to dialysis. And so I learned a lot from what we went through with Jacques with all of this medical issues about recognizing things and wrong when they were happening, and how to deal with them and how to get appropriate help and time so that he can be the most comfortable that he can be as it went along. And I learned I learned that that I felt like Jacques some somehow wasn’t wasn’t content with dying when he died. He was he was angry about it. those last two words he said were were words of anger. And I could tell he was angry because it was he didn’t get finished. You know, he wanted he finished his book, but he wanted more out of his life. Where was wrong, it was entirely different, that he was perfectly comfortable with his mortality. And whatever happened whenever it happened was was okay with him. And it made it much easier for me so that we could we could really enjoy the time that we spent together and make the most of it. And it really was quite beautiful.

Brian Smith 27:33
Yeah, yeah, it sounds like one of the one of the big lessons that you got out of going through that. So you talked earlier, about being joyful and having gratitude when we’re going through stuff like this? How does one get to the point where they’re joyful and grateful when we’re going through? terrible loss?

Emily Thiroux Threatt 27:54
I can tell you, gratitude is what started for me. Ron, and I’m not long chalk had been gone for about a year. And I was talking to a couple of friends of mine. That day, I had introduced them, we were working on a project together, they didn’t really know each other very well. But they were both expressing that they were concerned for me because I just didn’t seem to be doing anything. And I really wasn’t doing much. And they both at the same time said you got to watch the movie The secret? No, right. You know. But they I thought both of them said it. They’re they’re coming from two different perspectives. I thought I’ll I’ll give it a try. Yeah, I’ll watch the movie. And the whole time I was watching a movie, I had kind of a chip on my shoulder. And I felt like it was kind of magical thinking and how could this possibly work. And when I got finished with it, and I went to put the DVD back in the case, on the paper that was inserted in there, there was a it said, Don’t turn this over until you watch the movie. And I thought, Oh, come on. So I turned it all over. And it said, it was just essentially a page with a whole lot of lines on it. And it said, write down what you’re grateful for. And I said, I’m a widow, I’m by myself, there’s nothing that I have to be grateful for. And then I thought about what I’d listened to in the movie and I thought it It won’t hurt to try this. So I started writing. And I was really shocked that it was really easy to fill up there was like 10 lines or something on there. And I thought I’m grateful for more than that. And so I started writing down what I was grateful for anytime I think about it, and I got to the point it was it was like an addiction. If I’d be standing in line at the bank, I dig a receipt out of my purse to write something that I thought of on the back of it because I wanted to hold on to all these things that we’re grateful for because I found the more gratitude I expressed, the better. I felt And here I’ve been in such a negative mood and I was pulling myself out by realizing I’ve got a whole lot to live for, and my life is good. And there’s a lot of beauty and joy and wonderful things in my life. And that’s where I need to focus. So gratitude really pulled me out of of where I was that made all the difference in the world.

Announcer 30:21
We’ll get back to grief to growth in just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian is an author and a life coach, if you’re grieving or know someone who is grieving his book, grief to growth is a best selling easy to read book that might help you or someone you know, people work with Brian as a life coach to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers at WWW dot grief to www dot g ri e f, the number two, gr o w th comm or text growth gr o w t h 231996. If you’d like to support this podcast, visit slash grief to growth slash g ri e f the number two gr o w th to make a financial contribution. And now back to grief to growth.

Emily Thiroux Threatt 31:22
And that led me to the point where I finally could couldn’t be open to more experiences and about shocked I didn’t February. And so when New Year’s Eve came the next year, I was sitting home by myself on your safe. I thought I’ve got to make a new year’s resolution that’s going to change my life, you know, it’s gonna make a difference in my world. And what came to me was to accept invitations. Now, I couldn’t figure out why that came to me because I wasn’t getting any invitations. You know, people just knew that I was moping around, I think and didn’t want me to be a stay out there party. So I but I thought now I’m going to do it anyway. And I was committed to it. I just said I’m gonna do this, whatever it is that comes along that I’m invited to do. I will and I started getting invitations that were amazing, really, really interesting things, things that I never would have thought of doing before. One of them was I was looking at the newspaper that was back in the days when we read newspapers. And there was an article saying that they were searching for the editorial board for the newspaper. And that if you were interested in applying this was how to do it. And I thought, hmm, that sounds like an invitation to me. So I applied and I was accepted on the editorial board. It was a one year position. And it was had absolutely fascinating. And I met all kinds of different people that I never would have before and had good experiences by doing that. So it was really neat. And then somebody from the bioethics committee at the Regional Medical Center, called me and said we Jacques was on the bioethics Committee for the hospital. And they needed a lay person on on the committee. And since I was Jack’s wife, and could come from kind of his perspective, they wanted to invite me to be on the bioethics committee, as a lay person, from the community, a community representative. And that was fascinating work. I absolutely love doing that. And then another friend said, Oh, I was I started going to a trainer, because my daughter had a friend who was a trainer, and she said, I just had to go with him. And he happened to be an ultra marathon bike rider. And he participated in the race across America every summer. And he was getting ready for the day race that summer. And he said, how’d you like to come with us and be the nurse for the team? And I said, Okay, okay. So I did that. It was an incredible experience. And then another friend said to me that at the university, she was one of my colleagues. And she said, What are you going to do? The star said, I really don’t know. Yeah. And I said, What are you going to do? She said, Well, I’m taking my sister to South Africa on on this excursion thing that where we can learn all these different things. This is all that sounds so cool. I’d love to do that. She’s gonna come along. So they’re I went to South Africa. So I just kept being one thing like that and after another and one of them was somebody that I’d known before that I hadn’t really had a lot of contact with wanting to go to a lecture at the university. Oh, pre Sean, what’s your last name sister’s something free showing

Brian Smith 34:58
Oh, Yeah, she

Emily Thiroux Threatt 35:01
was doing a presentation, I thought, Well, that sounds really interesting. And so I went with her because she didn’t want to go by herself. And when we got there, she said, I hope you don’t mind that I invited another friend of mine to sit with us. And she’s bringing her new minister from from her church. And you Do you mind? I said, No, no problem. And when they came in, and she introduced me, and I shook his hand, I just felt something kind of magical. I said that this girl that was with a woman that was with him was really a lucky person. And I found out later, I’ve kind of found out later that it wasn’t his girlfriend, or anything, that she was just a member of the church that was showing him around the town, and that she had actually was trying to get him together with the girl that brought me. So that was kind of fun, because they didn’t look like they belong together at all. Anyway, I didn’t think about it anymore. Didn’t seem again, until several months later. The same friend that convinced me to go to South Africa with her said, you’ve got you’ve got to start dating again. You just have to do it. I say, you know, how am I gonna do that? She goes on call on I said, you go on She wasn’t. She just she didn’t let it go. She just kept saying and saying and finally that there’s a reason that she’s telling me this. And so I wrote down a list of everything that I wanted in in somebody, if I was going to go out with them, they had to have all these qualities. And if they didn’t, then I wasn’t interested. And after I did that, I posted all the about me all about me on on match. And within a couple of hours, I got this response from the sky. And I looked at it. And I read it and it was it was almost exactly my list. Interesting. Wow, it was so bizarre that it was it was everything that I was looking for in a relationship. And I love this picture. I thought it looks familiar to me. But I don’t know why. Because this was maybe nine months after that lecture at the university. And we ended up going out the first time for dinner. And I know you’re not supposed to do that you’re supposed to go for coffee or something for somebody, but we ended up going out for dinner. And we’re together ever since then we just knew when we first got together that we were such a good fit, and had so much fun together. And he was he was absolutely wonderful. And he was really great. And it was probably two or three months later that I said, you know, we met each other before. He was the guy at the lecture. But I met at the lecture. And there and I remembered that that handshake and stuff it was it was interesting that I felt that way then but then just saw him again, he didn’t really think about it again. But then that that was that was him.

Brian Smith 38:02
Wow. So I’ve got to ask you, how do you feel about soul planning or pre predestination or whatever in our lives? Because I’ve seen I’ve seen some really interesting patterns as you’re, as you’re saying this?

Emily Thiroux Threatt 38:16
Ah, well, I kind of believe in that. Everything happens for a reason. I know that sounds kind of trite. But there’s there’s too many things too many things of synchronicity that happen, that I don’t believe that things just randomly happen. I believe that that somehow we’re we’re called to do it suppose to do it. Whatever it is that there are things that I hadn’t put a label of soul planning on it that I can see that and with dealing with people who have experienced loss, I can say a lot of that it seems logical to me. Yeah.

Brian Smith 39:07
It just seems interesting. The parallels between your your first husband and your second husband and their illnesses and and their different approaches to their passing and then you know how your approach changed. And it sounds like you were destined to be with with the guy that you met on match calm, and it’s interesting. We kind of talked about putting that or accepting invitations. This is second time. I’ve heard this in the last couple of days. So this is my synchronicities. Someone was saying they called it the surrender experiment. Someone I follow on Facebook. I was just listening to a bit yesterday a video that she recorded and saying to put it out there just like I’m going to accept the opportunities to come along and and see what happens and she was challenging people to do this for a week or for two weeks. And then literally today you say this, so I think there is something Just setting that intention to saying I’m going to be open to what comes along and just, you know, and say yes and see what happens. So that’s it. I guess it’s really interesting to say that. So when you start writing about grief, and you teach people how to write about grief, so the first question I have for you is some people say, why can’t write. So what do you say when someone says you, I just can’t write,

Emily Thiroux Threatt 40:23
don’t worry about it, just just come in and do what you’re comfortable with when we’re together and nobody else has to read it. And if you choose to share it, you can and every time they share, it’s amazing. Once you start hearing what other people have written, they, they want to share what they said to write. And it it’s, it’s really quite amazing. But one of the writing practices that they most enjoy, and I’ve used it in in a bunch of different ways, but the initial way that I had them do it was and there’s a term for it, I just heard the other day that I didn’t realize that term existed. And now I can’t remember what it was. But it’s, it’s apparently nothing new. But what I had them do was write a letter to their loved one who died and I say loved him, because some of them were kids that died. Some of them were moms. It wasn’t all like widows in the group that was a variety of people. They said, write a letter to your loved one who died and tell him anything that you didn’t get to tell them anything that you would like to have asked them in anything you want to say to them and write that letter. And I give them the time to do that in the group. And I always write along with them. And then when they’re done, they don’t know what’s coming. But when they’re done, and we say you know, sign up like a letter with love and your name, or however you would sign it to that person. And when you finish that, what you do is turn it around and write a letter back to you right then from that person, all of this stuff is fresh in your mind. And don’t worry about what you’re going to say just write whatever comes to you at as you’re writing. And they do and generally. A lot of them are in tears by the time they finished the letter. And they said that they felt like they were able to resolve things that they had been thinking about and couldn’t figure out how to deal with. They felt comfort from it, they felt love from it, they felt like they their loved one still was a presence in their life that they didn’t realize that they were that close. And they absolutely loved that exercise. And yeah, it’s a it’s a great thing to deal with them. So that’s usually what I get them started with. And once once they do that they’re kind of hooked. Yeah, whatever I come up with, they’re in for it. And it’s different every time. It’s not not a set schedule of different topics that we do. It’s it’s whatever seems to be appropriate for that particular group at the moment to tell right about

Brian Smith 43:01
Yeah, it sounds like a form of automatic writing.

Emily Thiroux Threatt 43:04
That’s the word. That’s what I heard. Yeah, that’s, that’s what it is. Yeah, you can do it in several different ways. It doesn’t have to be just the person who die.

Brian Smith 43:12
Right there. There are several different ways to do it. And it’s just, I just finished a book reading, reading a book about automatic writing. And that’s one of the things that people do and what a lot of us don’t realize, according to this, this author, and I believe it too, is when we write that letter back to ourselves. It’s actually our loved one speaking through us. And I think that’s why people become so emotional about it, because they realize that they can still tap into that person, that they’re still available. Mm hmm.

Emily Thiroux Threatt 43:42
I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s may amazing, really, I just see the change and the people that I’m, I’m just kind of surprised by one of the people had been dealing with the loss of a loved one. I won’t say the relationship in case he happens to listen to this. But the loss of a loved one years before and hadn’t been able to make peace with it. And by doing this, it changed your life. made a huge huge difference for her. And then writing sometimes to someone who’s died in a sudden, tragic sort of situation like the podcasts I was just listening to you with. I can’t remember her name her husband or not husband her son was killed in an accident. Doors Delores young and and how she was dealing with that. When you don’t get to say goodbye, you don’t have any idea that it’s coming. Doing this kind of writing can help you kind of pull things together and kind of work things out that you didn’t have a chance to do one person. Yeah, that’s really good. situations like that.

Brian Smith 45:02
So and your book I know, they’re, they’re like 26 practices that you offer in your book, what are some of the practices besides the automatic writing we just talked about?

Emily Thiroux Threatt 45:10
Well, they do that. And there’s actually 26 different things. And they’ll be things like meditation, a lot of people just aren’t familiar with actually meditating. And so it’s kind of a kind of a beginning introduction to meditation. It’s how to write affirmations. And how to deal with affirmations. It’s there’s so many of them, I shouldn’t pick up my book. Yeah. That they, they’re different things where they can actively be involved in something. Right? Right. And one of them is like, if they’re feeling closed off and alone and haven’t been around people, then it has them create an event. Oh, wow, they can have people come to me, it goes through the process of creating that. And of course, it’s a little different with the pandemic, but right, it still can can create something where they can get people together and have that social interaction. I think that came from me sitting by myself so much that I could have done something I chosen to, and I can see how big of a difference it can make when people do that. Yeah. And journaling, I have them do just plain journaling, regular journaling.

Brian Smith 46:33
Yeah, it’s, you know, it sounds like it’s not sad, but it’s something that’s extremely helpful and extremely needed. Because as you said, when when jack pass you like, when this happens to us, we don’t have any idea how to grieve with no one, no one teaches us how to grieve. No one teaches us what to expect, we don’t know is what I’m feeling normal. You know, all those questions that the people that I talk to, on a daily basis, you know, we’re just people are just lost. And your book is a guide for people. It’s something that says, okay, you can take an active role in this, you don’t, you don’t have to be passive, like the way that you, you know, said, Okay, this is what I’m going to do and intentions that you set. And people can learn, you know, I would say people can learn two ways you can learn from your own mistakes, or you can learn from other people’s. So it’s always better to learn from what someone else has gone through, rather than having to go through ourselves. That’s just one of the great power, great benefits of being able to write and being able to read the pass that knowledge along.

Emily Thiroux Threatt 47:34
Yes, it’s, it’s, I love doing it. And I really feel like I’ve got a lot to do with doing this because I want I want to help cumference support as many people as I can, whenever I can, whether it’s with the writing or reading the book and having do the exercises or speaking in two groups, so that somebody will hear something and go, Oh, I can do something about this one, however I can do it. I feel like that’s what I’m supposed to do. And I just got to tell you an experience that happened to me just last week that we could go Yeah, I live on the side of a volcano. So when you either go down to the valley, or you come back up to get an in and out of that area where I live where we call it up country in Maui. And there’s one highway dark, very many highways on Maui, which is was kind of surprising to me when I got here from the LA area with all the freeways and everything, right, this is a divided highway that’s got two lanes on each side and the grass divider in between. and I was driving home in the middle of the day in the slow lane. And it was kind of a lot of traffic because the tourists are starting to come back to the island. And so there’s a whole lot more people than we’ve been having. So being especially cautious and my son was in the car with me sitting in the passenger seat. He said, oh my god or something like that. And I looked to my left, and there was a pickup truck that had crossed the divider in the fast lane going the fast speed coming right at my side of the car. Wow. And it just it was I will never get rid of that picture. Right then when it happened. And you don’t really have time to think and I so what I did was I just held tightly to the wheel kind of slammed on the brakes hoping that from what I saw that maybe we could I mean, I couldn’t. There was no place I could go to my right. There was no place I could get out of I mean, I couldn’t have gone fast enough. So I thought if I could stop that maybe then it happened. And so I stopped and I felt this bump on the car shook. And then I decided to open my eyes and see what damage had been done. You know, I just knew I was gonna see him there and there’s gonna be blood and people. Everything. Wow. There’s nobody there. And I thought, I didn’t imagine this. I saw this. And I was shaking so hard. And Jason, my son said, No, you so I did it. Wow. And so as I was trying to get out of the car to two other cars, it pulled over. And there was all this stuff all over the freeway apparently was in a big windstorm. And the guy in the back of his pickup truck had lots of loose stuff in it and had flown up, and it was all over the freeway. And so because of that all of the traffic slowed down really slow. And they were being really cautious to drive around this stuff. And these two cars that pulled over were right behind me. And they was seeing him coming down the wrong side of the freeway toward them ran them both off the road, but the rest of the people weren’t affected by it at all. And I said, was there a truck? I could swear sidetrack and she said, Yeah, I looked down there. And there were guardrails in between the two sides of the highway for quite a ways. And he came right before the guard rails is when he passed into me. And he kept going the wrong way until the guardrail stopped and he could pull over. So once they pointed it out, I could see him pretty far away, when it got seen get out of his truck and start picking stuff up and be destroying it into the back. And so I could tell that he was okay by the kind of movements. But I couldn’t I couldn’t see him. I think I recognized him if I had to. And then I looked at my car, my car that I bought brand new in November. And it just had some kind of like a scrape mark on the driver’s side fender and broke out the taillight on on that side and ripped off the trim on that side. And it was about $3,000 worth of damage, but that all it was with him coming that fast. I didn’t see how, how the car or us especially we’re going to be walking away from it.

Brian Smith 52:04

Emily Thiroux Threatt 52:05
And when I got home, I decided that I was going to post what happened on Facebook, and all these people, people I’ve known my whole life for responding, you know that Ron or Jacques, made it not happen the way it was going to, because you still have work to do, the work that you’re doing right now is so important, and you’ve got to work on it, it wasn’t time for you to go because you love you need to be helping the people that are grieving. And people didn’t need to be grieving you right now. And that’s that was the response. And I had tons of people respond, and they all gave me that same message. Wow. Wow. So it was it was uh, not that I needed reinforcement, but it really made me think, yeah, I’m doing exactly what I need to be doing. And I’m helping people who need to be helped, and I’m grateful to be able to do it.

Brian Smith 52:58
Yeah. Wow, that that is quite a story. And yeah, sometimes we all need reminders, you know, we all need reminders here. And there, we get caught up in the day to day and sometimes we forget, you know, that there’s something else that’s, that’s bigger than us that that’s, that’s in charge. I know, last year 2020 was a was a rough year for almost everybody, you know, in one way or another and often when we talk about grief, we think about death, we think about someone passing but um, Could your book help people that have gone through other things besides losing a loved one?

Emily Thiroux Threatt 53:33
Absolutely. I always say grief and loss, or grief or loss because it could be anything my last year in particular, a lot of people lost homes, lost jobs, lost incomes, lost friendships, or being able to be with family lost, being able to what am I my friends just had her first grandchild born. And she she was able to go he was in another state for more she was she was able to go be there with her, her son, the father of the baby. But the and she was she was because the father was not allowed. And with the mother while she was in labor, and during delivery, he wasn’t able to experience that with her because of the COVID restrictions. And you know, we’ve just gotten so used to dads being able to be part of the birth process that that’s that’s a really big thing to miss out on. And that’s a kind of loss. And I’m going to do a talk in a couple of weeks to breast cancer survivors Association and the woman who called to ask me to talk she says, you might think it’s kind of strange that we’re asking you to talk but losing a breast is loss is an absolutely losing part of your body. It’s a significant change for the rest of your life and in floss and you can deal with loss in the same way because you’re going Those things you read the things that you don’t get to do, or that you lose, just like losing a loved one. It’s very similar. And I’ve I’ve been coaching a lot of people through that sort of thing talking to people through that.

Brian Smith 55:17
Yeah, yeah. Well, I agree with you i to me, grief is loss. It’s we’re associated with the loss of a loved one. But it could be the loss of anything, anything that you that you weren’t ready to have go out of your life that goes out of your life. And as you said, it could be lots and lots of things that we’ve all been through recently. So I think your book is very timely to have come out at this time to help people with stuff like that.

Emily Thiroux Threatt 55:43
Yeah, so many people have sent out my book this family, that’s a perfect timing for that.

Brian Smith 55:48
Yeah, yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt 55:50
I have no idea when I started.

Brian Smith 55:52
Yeah, well, you know, I think things work out the way that they’re, they’re supposed to. And I think that I truly believe that. Well, Emily, we’re coming to the end of our time together, I really appreciate you sharing your life with us your story with us, your your, your book, anything, any last words you’d like to say to the people that are listening?

Emily Thiroux Threatt 56:13
I think the big thing is for people who are dealing with loss or with grief, is to remember to take care of themselves. Because that that so often gets, and speaking from experience, especially the first time through, I really wasn’t taking care of myself, and I couldn’t really get better until I started doing that. So just be gentle on yourself and take really good care of yourself loving yourself. Put yourself in good situations where you can be supportive. And that’s just just critically important when you’re dealing with loss and grief.

Brian Smith 56:53
Yeah, I think that’s really profound. And I and and I think especially not to stereotype, but a lot of times women are the caregivers. And a lot of times when people are caregivers are not really good at receiving care. And you might feel guilty about you know, I’m being selfish. And I tell people, this is the time to be selfish, it’s this is the time to take care of yourself, you’ve got to because it’s so it can be so draining, you know, the energy that it takes out of you.

Emily Thiroux Threatt 57:22
And, and and with that, you want to doubt about women, and I find that with me, and I’m sure it’s different for you. But with me, it’s mostly women who come to me for help. It’s the men a lot of times don’t seek help. And I one of the things I’m so impressed with you about is that you’re a guy and you’re doing this work. And I’m hoping that man will reach out more and maybe they need a man to talk to as opposed to a woman. And so it’s it’s it’s important for for all of us to be able to be available to the people who need us.

Brian Smith 57:58
Yeah, well, you know, it’s interesting, because we all have trouble seeking help and different ways. My experience has been 80 90% of my clients are women. Yeah, and I just happened to be talking with someone the other day, it’s a male, his objective, Executive Director of a grief organization, and we’re experiencing the same thing. So women, sometimes I have trouble, you know, doing the self care, but men don’t even bother. They don’t even know that they need healing. So it’s really, we need to find a way to reach the men too. I completely agree with that. Because a lot of times guys just try to just try to bear down and get through it. And it’s really important to process you know, the feelings that we’re going through.

Emily Thiroux Threatt 58:38
Yeah, they’ve always been taught to be strong and and not crack that shell open so that they can get some soothing. Yeah.

Brian Smith 58:47
So Emily, let people know where they can reach you if they want to find out more about you.

Emily Thiroux Threatt 58:51
My website is the same as my book title, loving and living your way through I also have a Facebook group group that’s loving and living your way through grief that they’re welcome to join and awesome. I’m on Instagram, Emily underlyings. ro underlying threat and on Twitter app, whatever that symbol is, and then I can’t remember something throughout the threaders. I’m always really can’t remember which one it is. But I do lots of social media. I write a weekly blog that’s available on my website, I would be happy to have people reading. You can sign up there to get my little newsletter delivered once a week. It’s not a big thing, but it’s enough of just a reminder of different things that you can do or think about the convenient comfort.

Brian Smith 59:46
Yeah, I don’t. I want to remind people about the title of the book. It’s loving and living your way through grief a comprehensive guide to reclaiming and cultivating joy and carrying on in the face of loss. And Emily, you’re a great example. of how we can, you know, not only survive through these tragic events, but we can actually thrive and find joy again. So thank you for sharing that with us today.

Emily Thiroux Threatt 1:00:10
Well, thank you for the opportunity. I did. I just love to talk about. Yeah,

Brian Smith 1:00:15
yeah, it’s it shows and I really enjoyed our time together. So enjoy the rest of your day, and I’ll talk to you soon. Thank you. So that does it for another episode of grief to growth. I sure hope you enjoyed it. If you like this content, make sure you subscribe. So click on the subscribe button here, and then click on the bell to receive notifications and click on all that way you’ll be notified whenever I release new content. Thanks for watching and have a great day.

Transcribed by


April Hannah, founder of Hannah’s Healing Wellness Studio and co-founder of a media production company in upstate New York, has been providing clinical mental health counseling for over two decades, in combination with a variety of healing modalities and consciousness studies to her clients around the world.

After co-founding her media production company, Path 11 Productions, in 2008, she went on to produce three documentaries on life after death and consciousness studies. She is the host of the Path 11 Podcast and recently launched her first streaming television network, Path 11 TV. April has interviewed over 350 of the top best-selling authors, scientists, and researchers of consciousness on her podcast, has delivered more than 10,000 reiki and energy healing sessions to her clients and has spent countless hours documenting, investigating, and filming topics related to grief, bereavement, and afterlife studies.

After April’s mother passed away tragically in 2019, she immersed herself further into the study of the afterlife. She has now made it her life’s mission to use her film production company and one-on-one consultations to help others become better prepared not only for their own death but for the death of their loved ones.

You can find more about April at:





Brian Smith 0:00
Close your eyes and imagine what are the things in life that causes the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we’ve been buried, but what if, like a seed we’ve been planted and having been planted, to grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is grief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. Hey everybody, this is Brian Smith and back with another episode of grief to growth. And today I’ve got with me, April, Hannah, and I’m going to read April’s bio, and then we’ll get started having a conversation. April is the founder of Hannah’s healing wellness studio. And she’s co founder of a media production company in upstate New York writing. She’s been providing services to clients for over two decades and mental health counseling, in combination with a variety of healing modalities and consciousness studies to her clients around the world. After she co founded her Media Production Company path 11 Productions in 2008. She went on to produce three documentaries on life and life after death and consciousness studies. She’s the host of the path 11 podcast and recently launched her first streaming television network path 11 TV, April’s interviewed over 350 of the top selling best authors, scientists and researchers of consciousness on her podcast. She delivered more than 10,000 Reiki and energy healing sessions to her clients and spent many hours documenting, investigating and filming topics related to grief bereavement after my studies. So after April’s mother passed away, tragically in 2019. April emerges self further in the study of the afterlife. And she has now made it her life’s mission to use her film production company. And one on one consultations up others become better prepared not only for their own deaths, but for the death of their loved ones. So with that, I want to welcome April, Hannah.

April Hannah 2:07
And Brian, thanks so much for having me on. I never expected I would be in the other seat. You know, I’m so used to being a podcast host myself that I was like, wow, this is kind of weird, you know, to actually be interviewed. So thanks for having me on today. Yeah,

Brian Smith 2:21
it’s good. It’s good to have you here. And I’ve I’ve been in both suits. I’m not sure what city is easier. So that’s true. Yeah. So tell me how did you get started? And why your backgrounds in mental health counseling. And that’s interesting. My, my daughter just graduated, actually a couple weeks ago with her with her master’s in mental health counseling. So very nice. She’s just going into the field. So what what led you to to choose that as a as a profession as a career?

April Hannah 2:45
Yeah, well, I mean, I think I always knew very early on what my life’s calling was, like, I’ve never had any doubts about that. I knew that I wanted to be a teacher in some sort of way. But I was always that person that my friends would come to I was the great listener, I somehow, you know, had some good advice. all adults around me would say, You’re such an old soul. You know, I think things were coming out of my mouth when I was a young kid that like young kids, like shouldn’t have, you know, that information. So, you know, I grew up in a really, I would say, very open family, the women in my family were very intuitive and very psychic. And so I kind of was always a little bit in this intuition, you know, lifestyle and realm. So, you know, that blended with some trials and tribulations in childhood. You know, my mom struggled a lot with alcohol, alcoholism and addiction, I usually say that my family were my best teachers. And really just having a little bit of a traumatic childhood. When I was a teenager, I just wanted to like, research and, you know, figure out how I could be a better person and understand my own anxiety. And my family threw me into therapy very young, due to my mom’s addiction issues. So I think I was seeing a therapist as early as like, first grade. So therapy’s always been a part of my life. And I think just being really influenced by having really great therapists that helped me throughout my life, saved my life, you know, and I really was a child that ended up I guess, taking the better road, you know, I never turned towards addiction drugs or alcohol. I was kind of, I guess, more of that overachiever. You know, want to make everybody proud. And, you know, just kind of felt like I really couldn’t help my mom in many ways. So, you know, you go on to help others who who kind of want that help. So I just felt very natural. I had no questions about what I was going to study in college. It was like psychology drawn to it. I was always fascinated with people watching and you know the behavior of people. So it was a very easy choice for me. And then in my 20s while I was going through grad school, I encountered my first energy healer and I was rape crisis counselor at the time, and we had coworker who was a male. And we were just sitting around the lunch table one day, we were talking about dreams. And at the time in my 20s, I would have really vivid dreams, I would be in people’s houses. And then I was like, walking into a house that I had dreamt of, right. So like, I started making these diagrams and like, oh, what’s going on, you know, just having like a really strange experiences. So we’re sitting around the table, and he’s talking about, oh, yeah, my wife has really vivid dreams. And she’s always dreaming of houses. And actually, this morning, she woke up and she said, Oh, I was in this yellow house. And I walked up the stairs. And I took a left. And as he’s recounting this, I was in that house the same night dreaming of that. So I was like, Who is your wife? What does she do, and I need to meet her. And she was actually a registered nurse working in Kingston Hospital in New York. And, and she did card readings and energy healing. So I went to go see her just to check her out. And I was like, yeah, I’ll get a card reading. And it was she was the first woman that ever put her hands on me and delivered energy work. And in that one session, I healed more things than I had ever healed in clinical therapy. Hmm, wow. So that was a really life changing moment for me. And I was like, okay, whatever this is, I would love to figure out how to do this. So I can blend it with the therapy that I’m doing. And then so in my 20s, that led me into all studies of any type of energy healing that I could get my hands on. And of course, the first thing that most people get trained in is Reiki. So, you know, I’ve been doing Reiki now for over 20 years, and I went through all the different levels and continue to study different different modalities, you know, to this day, and then I’ve been able to incorporate it into the work that I do with people. And I find that when you treat people more on the mind, body, spirit, soul level, and not just their mind level, healing happens at like accelerated speeds. So that’s what kind of got me into, you know, blending more of the esoteric work with with the therapy.

Brian Smith 7:08
Yeah. So what other modalities Do you blend with your with, with the therapy?

April Hannah 7:12
Yeah, so I went, I went ahead and got trained in clinical hypnotherapy at the Southwest Institute of healing arts in Mesa, Arizona. So I did that for a while. And that has been amazing, because it just made me a better meditation teacher, you know, I learned different induction techniques to be able to bring people down into a more relaxed state. Gosh, I’ve studied with Sadhguru and took a 32 hour and inner engineering course on, you know, medic meditation and just a way to be you know, more on that being level. I’ve also been trained in esoteric healing with the lady by the name of Bernadette bloom, touch and Bri therapy, I’m sure you’ve heard of Emotional Freedom Technique, and the tapping techniques that people can use and eye movement therapy EMDR. So I mean, I have a toolbox, you know, filled with a bunch of different different skills, and you know, love to blend. Seven years ago, I got into essential oils, because I found that that really enhance the Reiki sessions that I was doing and the energy sessions people respond really well to send. So the essential oils I’ve really gotten into, so kind of pretty much pretty much anything you can think of I have tried to get trained in. Wow.

Brian Smith 8:28
So how do you determine when you’re working with a client, which are the modalities to use?

April Hannah 8:33
Yeah, well, I think it really depends, the three that I usually specialize in his anxiety, post traumatic stress and grief. So it really everyone is so different. And I think the really helpful thing about learning all these different tools is not no one person is the same. So you know, and PTSD, so the trauma and the PTSD is pretty huge. And anytime somebody is coming in with trauma or PTSD, I usually go straight for, you know, the techniques that help to change the neural pathways in the brain. So the thought field therapy, the tapping techniques, the eye movement therapy, because without getting like, you know, too sciency and brain and stuff here, but you know, what I’ve learned about trauma is that it gets trapped in the amygdala part of the brain. And our amygdala is kind of like the fire alarm, you know, that goes off. And, you know, many times when people are experiencing trauma or PTSD, the body doesn’t know how to calm itself. So anytime I’m working with somebody, in that case, I usually like to introduce more of those techniques in right away and also the hypnotherapy should really have to get them out of that state of fight or flight. So that’s really helpful. people that come in with anxiety respond really well to the Reiki sessions, the guided meditations and the hypnotherapy and and then you have a lot of people who are like really mentally stable and they’re really just on the spiritual path and you know, life is good work is good relationships. Good, and they’re really coming for more of a deeper spiritual awareness of themselves. And then, you know, we met through the afterlife awareness conference, and, you know, with path 11 TV that I’m doing and path 11 Productions, that has like giving me my own library to give my clients you know, just, uh, you know, meeting you and all the speakers at the afterlife awareness conference, I have a whole grief library, you know, with the podcast and everything like that. So I take a lot from what I’ve learned from you guys. You know, about grief, I, you know, I’m constantly recommending books or websites or people or if it’s outside my scope, I’m like, okay, here’s a connection. Let’s go there. So really depends on what the person is presenting at the time of their their session.

Brian Smith 10:47
Wow, that’s awesome. So what got you into actually producing like, documentary? Do you produce a couple or three documentaries? Right, so what got you into doing that?

April Hannah 10:57
Yeah, so that’s kind of a funny story. So back in 2008, I was going through this transition where I used to work in a psychiatric hospital on a children’s unit. So I did inpatient therapy. And as I was getting more into the holistic work, I was kind of feeling a little bit of a rub against of what my belief systems were because, you know, I was working with children that were having pretty intense like grief reactions. Like, I’ll never forget this one child that came in, he was four or five years old that his grandfather had died. And he was seeing his grandfather, and he was having conversations with him. And they put that child on Risperdal, which is an anti psychotic, wow. Yeah. And I am like, there’s just something really not okay with this system, like this child, you know, and I was learning about how, like, the children are still in both worlds, right, and the veil, the veil has not has not been, you know, put down and, and he was having conversations with the grandfather and seeing him and it was natural grief, but also, you know, children being psychic, intuitive and sensitive and able to have access to that other world much easier. And then I saw the child get put on anti-psychotics. And that was kind of the day that I said, Okay, I’m putting in my two weeks notice.

Because it’s just doesn’t feel right anymore. And so I decided to go into my own private practice. So the day I launched my website, I get this email from this video ographers Michael Hubbard egg, saying, Oh, I see that you’re a Reiki Master. And I wanted to do a documentary about Reiki. Are you interested? And I was like, Oh, my gosh, you know, the universe is responding. I guess this is really true. If you follow your path, it will support you, right? Yeah, yeah. So. So I was like, really excited, like, Oh, my God, I can’t believe that I just put the website out. Now I’m gonna be in a documentary like, this is awesome. So I met with Mike. And we sat down, and we had coffee. And we started talking. And I was like, I really don’t want to be filmed. But because I felt like still really green in the field of healing. You know, I was maybe only about seven years in, you know, practicing Reiki and learning all this stuff. And I said to Mike, I said, I have really amazing teachers who, like have been doing this work for 2025 years. I said, I’m really good organizing things. I’m a really good writer, and why don’t I reach out to them, and let’s interview them. So we kind of combinded our ideas together. And Mike was on a spiritual journey to he had in one year, I would say almost like 12 to 15 people die in his life. They were friends, family, coworkers, pets, you know, neighbors animals. And it really made him begin to question what he was taught growing up in his religion. So he was kind of doing this in depth study, and, you know, was like researching about Reiki and out of body experiences and came across the Monroe Institute. And he just happened to find me, because we were we lived 11 miles away from each other. So he contacted me. And I said, Yes. So as we got to talking, we realize that with all of the teachers that I had, and a couple of the people that he wanted to reach out to, we were going to be able to film a bunch of people and have enough footage to create a documentary. And we had so much footage, that it became a trilogy series. So um, so the trilogy series is called the path, the path series. And we wanted it to kind of mimic a little bit of what’s what Mike’s journey was in questioning the afterlife. So our first film is called the path afterlife, which is a collection of stories of people. One lady got struck by lightning and died and came back she had a near death experience. Other people are researchers of consciousness and out of body experts like William bule, Minh, Thomas Campbell, and people from the Monroe Institute. So we collected a bunch of stories. And after we made that documentary, we both believed Okay, there’s something that happens after death. We believe in an afterlife now and The next film is called the path beyond the physical. And that was all about Okay, now that we know that there’s an afterlife, and we’re consciousness, how do we play with consciousness? And that got us into the study of astral projection? How do you go out of body? How do you visit different dimensions? And, and so with that we were able to interview a man by the name of skip Atwater, who was a part of the classified mission called Stargate where our, you know, military was training psychic spies, and it’s become declassified. And so we got to learn all about that history and put that in there because the Monroe Institute was also being investigated by the government, because they were doing these barnette by neural beats, and people were going out of body and all these people were like, you know, gathering around on weekend retreats, and you know, doing some funky stuff. Yeah. So. So we go from believing, okay, there’s an afterlife. Okay, what’s this? What does this mean that we’re consciousness, and we’re not our physical bodies. And then the third one, we really followed a nuclear physicist. He’s retired, now, he worked for NASA, his name is Tom Campbell, and he has his own toe. So in physics, that means theory of everything. And he really believes that we live in a virtual reality, and that we’re kind of, you know, playing these roles in these avatars. And that love is really, at the basis of consciousness and why we’re here, you know, we’re here to evolve. And the way to evolve is to become more like love. So the third documentary was called the path, the path of evolution. And that really follows his scientific theory on consciousness. So we created those three films, we kind of toward the Northeast, and went out to Los Angeles and had a couple of shows out there. And, and then we took a break, cuz it took like, six years to do as long. Wow. And then as we were taking that break, Mike was like, well, we don’t want to lose our audience. And this was when podcasts were just starting to come out. And he’s like, April, you need to host a podcast for us. And I was like, What are you talking about? I don’t know how to host a podcast, not a podcast host. He’s like, you’ll be fine. You talk to people all the time. I’m like, Alright, I’ll do it. And I think we started that in 2015. And we’re, like, still going. So that’s how the podcast kind of,

Brian Smith 17:17
so is that what became path? 11, then

April Hannah 17:19
no path. 11 really started with the documentaries. So so we call herself path. 11. And then we just added path 11 podcast.

Brian Smith 17:27
And that’s what I meant. So we just project you started. That was what started path 11. And what’s what’s the origin of path? 11? Right. This is essentially it’s an interesting name.

April Hannah 17:37
Yeah. So we both felt that we were on the spiritual path, right? We were two people that ended up, you know, coming together on the spiritual path. And the significance of the number 11 was pretty strong. When we were going into the studio to edit the film, we were we were experiencing the 1111 phenomenon a lot. We had no idea what that was. But every time we look at the clock, it’s 1111 111. Then we met with one of my teachers, and she talked to us about numerology. And she figured out what our life path numbers were. And I was a life path nine and Mike was a life path 11. And then, you know, then we started noticing, like, when we were driving to do interviews with people on Google Maps, it would estimate our time of arrival was 111. I had my phone’s like in the car after an interview for the documentaries. And I go to pick it up afterwards. And there were 13 ones on my cell phone at the time, and we’re like, what is going on here? And, and then I later found out that I was born at 1:11pm. And Mike and I lived 11 miles away from each other. So you know, the the 11 just became significant. So we said, okay, we’re on a path. Why don’t we just call it path? 11? Because 11 keep showing up. And that’s how we got our name.

Brian Smith 18:53
Yeah, that that is awesome. So I’m interested in you know, as we’re talking today, this was keeps coming up. For me this week is like this idea of I’ve heard people say there’s no evidence of the afterlife. And I was in aklavik vector. salmons group, I’m sure you know, Victor is Victor salmons group and someone said, you know, should we try to talk to skeptics? And how do we convince them? We’re talking about the amount of evidence that there is or isn’t. And now I hear about these documentaries you produced, and there’s so much, you know, evidence and, and you even touched on the fact that government knows consciousness is real. The government has studied this, you know, but it’s still perceived a little bit as woowoo. It’s kind of out there and people say what’s not really scientific.

April Hannah 19:37
Right? Yeah. Well, you know, and I wonder too, like, as you’re talking, I wonder if we get tripped up on the vocabulary that we use, because we’re calling it afterlife. But really, it’s all consciousness. But we need a label and we need language to try to explain what does it look like when it’s not in the physical body?

Brian Smith 19:58
Yeah, yeah.

April Hannah 19:59
You know, So and like you said, there’s tons of proof. I mean, like, what other proof do they need at this point? I mean, we are, we are still having everyone that I’ve come across has had some sort of paranormal, right? interaction or communication with, with something that has either lived here on this earth or has inhabited a physical body and is no longer. So I think sometimes maybe, you know, we get confused with the word dead death after life. But really, I think that consciousness is just, it’s a, it’s a continuation, it’s those people who are transitioned, you know, are still are still a piece of consciousness with that information stored in that consciousness that is just not in the physical body. So maybe it’s just we have to find different words and stop calling it the afterlife.

Brian Smith 20:51
Yeah, well, it’s funny because Suzanne giesemann I remember she coined the term the ever life, because it’s like, there is just one continuous life there, there isn’t an afterlife, and you’re right terms like dead, which implies that we end as opposed to, you know, transition is another phrase that you use, and even a term paranormal paranormal is just something we don’t understand yet. And, you know, analogy I’ll give the people like, if you took someone from 500 years ago and told them about radio or television or cell phones, they would say that’s magic, or that’s, that’s paranormal. There’s no you can ever be able to communicate with someone across the world, like you and I are right now wirelessly. Without any kind of physical contact. That’s impossible. So impossible, just you know, a phrase we use for stuff that we don’t understand yet. So yeah, it’s I’ve really love what you’re doing, by putting out these documentaries. And the people that you interview that provides this, I guess, permission for people to believe what we’ve already know. I mean, we’ve, humankind has known this for millennia. But it’s been the last couple 100 years that we’ve kind of like forgotten who we are.

April Hannah 21:54
Exactly, yeah. And I think you know, the videos that we produce and the stuff that we’re putting out there on path 11. tv, again, kind of gives people more of that repetition of stories, right? And yeah, like, if you hear enough of these stories in these accounts, how can you begin to really deny that there’s some some experience that’s happening?

Brian Smith 22:13
Yeah. And I love what you said there. Also, I think there’s value in the repetition. You know, it’s funny, because I’ve been studying near death experiences for, wow, 1520 years now. And I still can’t get enough of them. I’m still I still listen near death experience podcasts, I look them up on YouTube. Because while they’re all the same, they’re also all unique. And we also need to, I guess, kind of keep reinforcing this, this path that we you and I believe that we’re on anyway.

April Hannah 22:40
Yeah, and the thing that I find really comforting to have the same way. It’s like, give me another story. Let me let me hear again. And I’ve interviewed a lot of people on the part of the path 11 podcast who have had near death experiences. And the thing that I find comforting, comforting is, you know, everyone’s recollection just of how peaceful and how loving that energy is, and, you know, of what they experience when, when they’re there. And like you said, a lot of them have some of the same basic messages that people come back to say, which, again, in itself is really interesting. But then, you know, the uniqueness of the story of what each person learns and how their life changes, you know, like, just next week, I’m going to interviews another man that has had a near death experience is going to be a document, new documentary that we’re working on for pet film and TV. And he came back and became this wonderful artist had no artistic skill, never did art in his life. And now, like the near death experience has brought him different skills that he never had. And he’s creating this beautiful art and kind of bringing this, you know, back to the people as his gift. So, yeah, I find I find near death experiences really comforting to it’s like, whether you have a belief system or not, like listen with an open ear, and you know, see what you think.

Brian Smith 24:01
Yeah, you know, it’s interesting, because a lot of people I think, think that people like you and I are just, we’re just suckers, like will fall for anything, or it’s wishful thinking and what they don’t realize, at least most of the people I’ve met that really entered this field, most of us are still really skeptical. And I think that’s why we keep studying it so much, because we’re like, Okay, I’m still really skeptical about this. And I look for those, but they called radical near death experiences. Did you experience something that you could not have experienced? Otherwise? Not just I had this nice, you know, i saw angels and I came back to my body, but can you tell me what the doctor was saying? While you were unconscious? Or the guy that you just mentioned? That’s probably the David ditchfield. No, no. Oh, really? Rodney Bentley. Okay, that sounds a lot like David ditchfield because he had a near death experience. He came back and he was able to create not only art but music and the guy couldn’t even read or write music before. So our need and more Johnny who, you know, came back it was miraculous to hear from healed from cancer. So those are the ones that Really fascinate me because it’s like, Okay, this is not this is not the brain being deprived of oxygen. This is not wishful thinking. This is not you know, you you had a dream this is, this is real evidence.

April Hannah 25:12
Yeah. And I love those stories to where, you know, the medical community says, Well, what? You don’t know. I guess it’s a miracle. You know, like the miracle stories are there’s no explanation. We can’t explain it.

Brian Smith 25:23
Yeah, they’ll never use your miracle. They’ll call it like a spontaneous healing. Right? Exactly. Yeah, we call the miracle there’s a spontaneous healing. That could happen. Yeah, yeah. So, um, what I know, you’ve been doing the path 11 podcast for a while, but path 11 TV, I believe was fairly new. So tell me about path. 11. tv?

April Hannah 25:43
Yeah. So we launched it in November, in the middle of a pandemic, and a crazy election year. So, you know, we kind of the pandemic put a lot of things on hold, we were supposed to launch it at a different time. And, you know, so it was a little, I think it got overshadowed by everything that was going on. So really appreciate you having me on. So I can start spreading the word a little bit more now that people are, you know, calming down a little bit with everything. But yeah, so since 2008, Mike and I really have been, you know, filming, we have a bunch of different projects that we really weren’t doing anything with, we were just kind of sitting on this footage, we knew that we would create something, but we weren’t quite sure. And then one year was about three years ago, I believe we’re in 2018. I had this experience. And again, just following the wisdom of spirit saying you’re going to do something with the afterlife conference. And then all of a sudden, I was like, Okay, well, let me reach out to this woman that organizes it. And these would be really great people for the podcast. So my intention was to podcast and to come down to the conference in podcast live, so we could get more content. And Terry said, Well, this is interesting, because the production team that we’ve used every year, doesn’t want to do it this year. Do you guys want to do it? And Mike? and I were like, Oh, my gosh, okay. Sure. So when when the conference was being held in person, we would be the production team that would go down to the hotels, and we would live stream it for people that couldn’t be there in person, and they could watch it. So we’ve been doing that now for three years. And with all that, and the arrangement that we have with Terry, you know, it’s like we help her out, she helps us out. And she had given us the rights to what we film because, you know, we don’t charge anything to do any of this stuff. So it was kind of like this nice, even trade. And so we said, well, we have all this content, let’s put it on a television network. And so I kind of look at path 11 TV as a library and a resource for people. And we like to film and investigate what we’re still curious about. So. So we have a lot, we have the three conferences 2018 19 2020, of the afterlife conference. So you’re up there on path 11 TV. We also filmed a segment called shortcuts on the path. So shortcuts on the path was an idea that I had to make many short documentaries about different types of healing techniques, because like I said, when I was in my 20s, I wanted to learn all about these different modalities. So I figured, well, why don’t we actually go out to these practitioners, and let’s, you know, make a mini documentary. So if people aren’t really sure, if they want to try a salt cave, or a float tank or acupuncture hypnotherapy, they can watch this and then they get an idea. And then maybe they might be a little less scared to try, you know, a holistic medicine. So we have that. That’s a full season that we have on path love and TV, we have over 100 hours right now of video content on there. And then the other thing that I really love to do is to kind of catch people who are like, grassroots healers, you know, they’re like, on the ground, they’re not famous. They’re not necessarily out there writing books, or holding huge conferences, but they’re making these really small changes in community. And that’s what I think is most important, right? We start with ourselves. And then we if we’re a person that is following our spirit, our soul and our passion, we are going to be that ripple effect. So I really look for people in my community who are doing that. And I created two seasons of something called conversations on the path. So I sit down with people like you, you know, and people that are just really making a difference, but they’re really connected to who they are and their purpose and they’re living in they’re not they’re not afraid. They’re just like, I know, this is what I’m supposed to do. We also have some UFO Footage on there. Travis Walton, one of the most famous UFO abduction stories, we went down in a film the UFO conference, and Terry Daniel has her podcast called as Dr. Death has, so we have her on the path 11 TV as well. So there’s a bunch of content there. But I think in this next year, we’re really going to focus come back around More to just the afterlife and near death experiences. So I think we’re going to become a little more niche. We have a lot of different things up there right now for, you know, different variety of tastes. But I think, because our love comes with exploring the afterlife that we’re just going to really begin to focus it in, tell more stories create more documentaries about that.

Brian Smith 30:22
Oh, I have to ask you because you mentioned UFOs and I, how do UFOs relate to afterlife? And I know those two seem to come together a lot. So how does those two tie together?

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April Hannah 31:34
Well, I mean, in my experience, it’s interesting because I was talking to this gentleman truth seeker is his name. He has a podcast too. And we had him on we were on his podcast. And he brought up a really interesting point. He’s like, you no longer hear about UFO abductions anymore, do ya? It’s almost like, you know, people were getting taken up into the spaceships and like you don’t really hear those stories that much anymore. Right. So I think I had it has it relate to the afterlife. Again, I think it’s not necessarily a part of the afterlife, but it’s a part of the consciousness. And for us to think that we are just the only, you know, living centium beings in this galaxy is like absurd to just believe that Earth is the only, you know, planet that has living life on it. So I think I’m not sure why it may connect with the afterlife. But I think it carries that mystery of what else is out there. Who else is out there. And I think it also expands our ability to expand our consciousness out even further beyond the physical body. And I think those UFO stories help us to do that.

Brian Smith 32:44
Yeah, I just think as we’re having this discussion, one thing that just occurred to me, there’s also there’s so much evidence, I’m not really into UFOs. But there’s so much evidence, you know, and even the government has released evidence. And again, coming back to a conversation I was having earlier this week with what evidence would it take for people to accept the afterlife is like being quote proven. Now the government has even said we’ve we’ve seen UFOs? I mean, they’ve they’ve actually released this and announced it, and people just kind of went, yeah, and they just kept moving on. And there’s still people that are denying it, even though the government’s actually say, Yeah, we do have evidence for this. And it’s it’s sick, it’s kind of similar with the afterlife, we’ve gotten this to this point where it’s like, well prove it to me. And I’ve even had this conversation with people. There’s no evidence, and I’ll say, Okay, well here, here’s a bunch of evidence, I’ll just throw it at him. Well, you can’t. That’s nd E’s aren’t real, medium ships, not real, you know, paranormal investigations, none of that stuff is real. Therefore, there’s no evidence. So they just basically looked at this mountain of evidence, and just dismissed it all out of hand and just keep on leaving whatever it is they believe.

April Hannah 33:45
Yeah. Well, you know, and I’m not like a huge conspiracy theory person. And I’m not big into politics, and all of that. But I’ve had I have heard, some people say, and I think there might be some truth to it is that maybe some of this really isn’t validated in the mainstream, because if we truly understood the power of what we have, and what we can do with our consciousness in our minds, that could be really scary for maybe some of the, you know, the big brother businesses, you know, the way that Earth kind of runs in the rule set with the money in the companies and this, that and the other thing, and, you know, if you really kind of think about the rules that we have on earth, and the structure, it’s like, you know, we’re kind of told, okay, well, you go to school, and after school, then you should go to college, and after college, you want to maybe meet your lifelong partner. And after that, well, then you need to get engaged or you need to date you need to court so go out to the restaurants, buy a bunch of stuff. Buy the fancy ring. Now let’s plan a really big wedding. And after you plan the wedding, let’s buy a house. And after the house, maybe you should have a couple of kids and then you need to expand your house and your car and all that. So it’s like if you kind of see how I feel like we’re kind of told how to live or there’s like this unspoken, rule set to live. And then you have people that are like, you know, and I think in the younger generation, they’re like, yeah, forget about marriage, and I just want to travel and I want to live life. And they’re kind of messing up the economy a little bit, you know, not really kind of buying into what society is kind of telling us, at least in my generation, what I thought we were supposed to do. So I do think that there’s a lot of power in studying the afterlife and studying UFOs and studying the galaxies, and really training your mind. And not allowing it to be filled with fear and a lot of clutter and a lot of, you know, like the monkey mind. And when you get a really clear mind and understand how to use your consciousness, you become very powerful, you know, and in a good way, and granted, are there people that could maybe, you know, use that not for good? Sure, you know, I’m sure, I’m sure that can happen. But I think the word world would be a lot different. And we wouldn’t be so fearful, we maybe wouldn’t be so dependent on money, and you know, all of this stuff. So yeah, that’s, that’s my take on it. Well, our

Brian Smith 36:03
system is set up on competition, and it’s set and it is set up on on divide and conquer, frankly, and if we all if we all realize that we’re all the same, we’re all one consciousness. And what I do to you affects me, it would totally change things. And, you know, it’s interesting, because when the government was looking into, I don’t know all the names of all the different programs, starrcade, Stargate and MK Ultra, but they were like, the remote viewing stuff they were doing. And they realize there are people that could sit in a room and describe something that’s going on halfway around the world and draw it, they’re like, Well, what does this do to our top secret stuff? How do you protect? How do you practice putting into vaults not doing any good? Cuz this guy’s describing what’s inside the vault?

April Hannah 36:42
Right? Yeah, exactly. And, and I think that there’s power in that, right. So, you know, it just makes me wonder, like, maybe it’s never really validated because of that. And, you know, there is a little bit of a mind control of the masses. And I think people who, you know, you hear the term wake up, people who are waking up or not on their spiritual path, tend to see how we can be indoctrinated with fear. And like most people that are waking up, usually the first thing that they do is stop watching the news. You know, it’s like, I just can’t handle that anymore. And then like, you don’t become as programmed into what’s going on, you know, in society, I think.

Brian Smith 37:20
Yeah, I know, there were a couple things that really kind of, and they you talked earlier, and I thought this is interesting, because a lot of times, people that experienced trauma, they set out to not only heal their own trauma, but kill other people’s trauma. And I as I’ve watched your life path, I see that, you know, you’re like I’ve experienced this trauma, how do I want to understand this? So trauma is a really interesting thing for people because none of us likes it. But it does transform us, you know, it can make us you know, better. So I, I know, your your mother passed in 2019. How did that impact your path?

April Hannah 37:53
Yeah, it shook me, you know, I thought I was really prepared and well versed in death, and bereavement, you know, and then you have something like that happen. And, you know, when my mom had passed, it was all I could say, as I was so grateful for finding path 11 Productions and being on the spiritual journey since 2008. Because it was like, in that moment, it was like, Oh, Okay, I get it, everything that I’ve been doing everything that has come, you know, into my life, kind of prepared me as much as I could be prepared for that moment, you know, and it was, you know, it was pretty traumatic, because she was crossing the street late at night, she was under the influence, and she ended up getting hit by a car. And, yeah, and, you know, my mom and I, it was a very, you know, just challenging relationship from the beginning. And, because there was always an element of addiction, you know, and, you know, her going in and out of rehabs. And she was 65, and had maybe 10 years of sobriety under her belt, and then fell off the wagon again, you know. So, I would say that a large part of my life was trying to heal this trauma and trying to heal this relationship and trying to understand how to be in a relationship with an addicted parent, how to create boundaries, how to keep myself sane, so I could function, you know, in my own life. And so that was really tough, because, you know, with the trauma, not only of her death in the way that she died, there was also trauma in the relationship because we were strained from each other for a while, you know, and, you know, we would still call and talk but she was just a really bad place. So, so when that happened, I had done a lot of my own trauma work. I mean, clearly, you know, it’s like, even up until this day kind of launched me back in because when you’re a child of an alcoholic and or a parent that has addiction, there was something that happened after her death, which allowed me to go into The trauma that I had in a different way, because I was no longer the child that was waiting to get the phone call that my mom was gonna die. Now there was, there was relief in the depth of that her suffering and pain is over. But there was also something of the fight or flight of, okay, am I gonna get a call from the police where she living now? What is she doing? Does she need money, you know, kind of all of that stuff. And then when the death came, there was this piece, but then it was really time for me to do the work. And so I would say like, so grateful for filming the afterlife conference, I knew that my mom was going to pass intuitively, I did not think it was going to be in this way. And when we were at the afterlife conference in Utah, Linda Fitch, who was a shaman did a fire ceremony. And here and I’m filming, right, I’m filming, I’m doing my job. And all of a sudden, the ceremony brings up so much grief within me, and I just intuitively knew that my mom was going to die that year. And I had dreams of it, I had dreams of the officer coming to my apartment, and actually notifying me which was exactly what had happened, like a lot of intuitive stuff. And, and so here I am trying to film, the afterlife conference, the ceremony is going, and then all of a sudden, I had to put down the camera and I had to, like join in into the ceremony. And I was putting in all the fear and the sadness about my mom and just was like grieving her death before it had even happened. And, you know, I know that Mike caught me on film, like just bawling my eyes out, you know. So it was just, you know, having gone through a lot of these ceremonies and learning different mnemonic techniques, understanding kind of what the bereavement process was, like, helped me to move through the process with a little more grace, you know, after she had passed, and, you know, where I’m at now, is really understanding that there is something to be done with this story now, right? Because there are a lot of people in the world who are affected by people that they love very much who have struggled with addiction. And it’s really hard not only to be an addict, but to be a family member that loves them. And then also, you know, just understanding tragic death in it in a different way. You know, like, was like, okay, there’s, there’s a lot to unravel here. So given the fact that I have the platform with path 11 TV, I have this podcast, I’m in the process of my own journey of doing some journaling, doing some writing, I’m going to be reaching out to the driver that killed my mom, to see if he is willing to have a conversation. Because being a mental health therapist, I can only imagine, like, I have so much just like empathy and concern for him because his world also changed that night. And we’re two strangers that will always forever be bonded by the date of October 19, you know, and I really want the opportunity to be able to talk to him and let him know that like, our family carries no resentment that my mom was suffering that, you know, when we think about the soul contracts, like this is another thing that I had mentioned on another podcast, in doing all this documentation with path 11 TV, I learned about the concept of soul contracts. So understanding that also took the sting a little bit out of my mom’s death, right? It’s like, Okay, well, clearly, this was kind of pre planned setup, you know, I know that I chose her to be my mom, and she chose me to be her daughter. And, you know, and this gentleman that was there the night, you know, in perfect timing for this to happen, he was also a part of the plan. So and, you know, I did a little research to to see how many pedestrian deaths there are in the world each year. And there was, there’s quite quite a few, you know, 1000s so I’m like, Okay, so now I’ve kind of shared that group similar to you, right? Like you’re in that in that group of grief community that has lost children. And like, you can understand that community you know, I feel like I kind of got thrown into a community of tragic loss and death and specifically people that you know, get hit by cars. And there’s a whole process to like the police investigation and what happens with that the trauma of things not being able to be released to the family until this this this this and that is done you know, identification of the body whether you’re able to do that or not do that. I mean, there’s there’s just like a lot, you know, that goes with that. So, I have really felt wasn’t expecting like my life to kind of be a little more focused on my mom, you know, and all of this, but it’s just like, how do I not with the platform that I have begin to unravel my healing journey and use it for good to hopefully inspire someone who is also A child of an alcoholic or an addicted parent. So that’s kind of my spend my mission now, which is why I’m here on your podcast.

Brian Smith 45:07
Yeah, that that is, it’s great that you’re, you’re taking that and, and transmuting it into something that can help other people. You know, I can tell you, I work with helping parents heal. So the one thing we have in common is VA had children transition before us. But everybody feels like their thing is different. They’re like, Well, my child transition by suicide, so you can understand me, Mike, because my child transitioned by it, my daughter had a heart issue. So we formed all these little subgroups. And I’m kind of, I’m not trying to criticize that. But for me, it’s like, the thing is, we all lost our children. So that’s what we all have in common. But everybody needs to kind of hear their own story in someone else. So in your case, your particular story will help someone who’s gone through through that. And I know that when someone is suffering from drug or alcohol addiction, as you said, it impacts you during the time that they’re here. But it also makes the grief more complicated. And what ways does it do that? And what ways does it change the grief process?

April Hannah 46:10
Well, I mean, I think what I’ve had to work through where a lot of the shoulds should I have? Why didn’t I I think it complicates it, because you know, my mom had called me, it was maybe a week and a half. Before this incident happened. I think her soul knew, you know, it’s one of those things. And she left a voicemail message and she was not in the right mind, I could tell that she was either on drugs or drinking. And it was this plea for I need to know that my daughter’s okay. And that my dogs, okay, because I have a dog bogey. And I was in the middle of moving my office like this whole time was just so crazy and weird, because I had also got a very strong intuitive feeling that I needed to come out of my office lease, and like spirit was like, you need to move now. And I have been learning that when you get something that strong, like don’t question it anymore. And I was like, Okay, why am I doing this? I felt like I was like this zombie. And, you know, I’m calling I’m like, why am I calling my realtor and asked me to get out of my lease. And I just kept hearing, downsize, downsize, downsize. So I did, and I ended up moving into a smaller office that was like half the rent, and still confused, like, why did I do this, I loved my office space, like this is making no sense. And then my mom died a week later. So you know, it was kind of I feel like my guides in the universe really setting me up to be able to take the time off that I needed. But when I was in the middle of moving out, I got this voicemail from her. And it was kind of one of these things like, okay, is this a good time to call back? Because clearly, you know, it’s like 10 o’clock in the morning, and she’s not sober right now. You know, what am I going to run into? When I call her again, I ended up calling her and she never picked up. And that was the last that I had heard from her, you know? So you kind of I think where I’ve struggled is, you know, in learning about codependent behaviors, learning about enabling behaviors with people who have addiction, I always carried I would say, more of a tough love line with my mom. And I would always say to her, when you choose sobriety, I will support you 100%, you know, offered for her when she was sober, do you want to come live with me, I’ll help you get on the ground, then you got to get out and do stuff like that. But, you know, it did get to the point where if she was calling for money, she knew that she couldn’t call me and ask for money anymore? Because the answer was no, like I kind of learned it’s, it’s not that you need gas. And it’s not that you have to pay a bill, it’s that you’re either going to get drugs, or you’re going to drink it away. So I feel like that’s what’s made it complicated for me because clinically, as a mental health therapist, you know, when you are trying to teach people not to enable the addict behavior, and that the addict really has to get to the point where they want to heal themselves, and it has to come from within, or else they won’t, they won’t continue to stay sober. And you’re trying to hold these healthy boundaries for yourself for your own mental health status. You know, after she died, it’s like, well, could I have been a better daughter, maybe I should have, you know, called her to check in more, or maybe I really should have just taken her out of the situation that she was in. But then looking back at that, if that had happened, my life would have been complete chaos, you know, and that wouldn’t have been helpful for her or for me. So I feel like the complication for me has been more than trying to wrestle with these boundaries that I set that were out of love. And at that time felt like it was what needed to be done for us. But then, you know, you second guessed that a little bit.

Brian Smith 49:42
I really appreciate you sharing that because I’ve seen it from the other perspective. You’re the daughter and the mother, but I’ve seen it with parents and children having to draw those boundaries and I I’ve never had to do that and I thank God I never did because I can’t imagine how tortures that would be for a parent to you know, Put a child out, for example, a grown child, you know, 1819 years old, that’s, that’s out of control. And, and this is a real situation that I’ve dealt with. And then that child, you know, transitions dies, passes, you know, and then you’re like I was trying to set a healthy boundary. But because I said, this is what this is our human mind. And because I set that boundary, now, he’s dead. So now it’s my fault, right, and we’ll just start beating ourselves up and going down the cycle. So it’s really helpful to hear a mental health professional tell us that when we all struggle with that, but we can only do the best we could do, this is what I was telling my clients, you did the best you could do at the time you knew how to what to do, or what the time you had to do it.

April Hannah 50:40
Yeah. And when I go back to those times where I was kind of setting that boundary, that really was right. And that is really what felt right in that moment. And something that I knew that I had to do, you know, if I was given a crystal ball, and was like, Okay, this is how your mother is going to die on the date that she’s going to die, maybe you should intervene a month before, then I probably would have you know, but again, I really trust in the fact that everything really is orchestrated in some way with the agreements that we set up with our soul with our soul group before we come in, and that this is a part of my evolution. And I feel like the really tough times, it’s, it’s really a choice of what we want to do with it. And I feel like I’ve had enough, you know, resiliency, throughout my life, I’ve been inspired by so many other people, like yourself included, where you see them go through really tough times, but they make a choice to use it for positive, you know, and instead of, and that doesn’t mean that I’m not grieving that I don’t struggle with it. You know, it doesn’t mean that just because I’m trying to make a difference, and work it in a way that can bring healing doesn’t mean that it still doesn’t hurt. But, but yeah, but I think that’s the important thing that it is important to know that when you’re setting those boundaries, it’s because you’re really doing them out of love, and love for yourself and love for the other person, especially with addicts, because your hope is that they’ll hit that rock bottom, and then they will go and get help. But I have also, I do believe that, well, this was just a moment that I had, it was one, one Christmas, when my mom had actually fallen into heroin use, it was really, really bad. And I had this pivotal moment in the month of December for Christmas that she probably wasn’t going to show up because we couldn’t find her. And so I bought her in case she showed up a mother daughter charm. And it was for me to give to her, but also to bury her in it. And I know that sounds really morbid, but it was kind of like, Okay, I’m going to buy this necklace. And if we find her, if she winds up dead, I’m gonna put this on her, and I’ll always have this charm. But if she’s alive, then maybe she’ll wear it, but we’ll still have it. But I kind of like had this strange, I don’t know, like come to Jesus moment of where I was, like, you know, her addiction is so bad that you are probably going to have to come to terms with, if you set these boundaries, there is a chance that she’ll die. And that you have to become comfortable with the fact that she that death is a very serious option. When it comes to people with addiction. You know, there’s usually three options, they get sober, they go to jail, or they die, you know, is usually what I’ve seen. So I had this moment, where I got really comfortable with the fact that okay, you know, her addiction could lead to her own death. And that relieved me of something, you know, and like, from that day on, it was kind of like, but this waiting period of is it gonna happen is she going to get sober, I’m just gonna be you know, so. So I think that sometimes with parents, you know, because I’ve, I’ve had parents in my practice that have had children with addiction, you know that I also let them know that too, to know that it really is a realistic thing that could happen that, you know, if you set these boundaries, your child could go and overdose, they’ll find a way to get the money to get the drug or to get the alcohol, you know, and until they’re really ready to move into a state of sobriety. It is a really realistic option. But can you try to come to more peace with that?

Brian Smith 54:06
Well, and the thing is, you can’t say them either either way, because if you enable them, you’re endangering their lives as well. We have to really like go this is where the things like the soul planning and understanding higher perspective, we need to forgive ourselves a lot of times I find that more than more often than anything, we’re so hard on ourselves that we act like we’re on these omniscient beings, right? If I had only known if I if I had been there, but you you can’t know you, again, we we make the decisions we make out of law that we have to make a decision, and then let it go, whether that’s a parent or a child or anybody else in our lives. We can’t control other people’s behaviors.

April Hannah 54:45
Exactly. And I tried to stop my thought process like when I get into those what ifs or I should have, I kind of go back to the reality of but she’s dead, right like she has passed. So nothing that I can do from this moment on can change Anything that has happened up until now. And then when I kind of redirect my thoughts to that, then I work on the grief, you know, but they come in, I mean, those thoughts come in. And I think that that’s natural. But I think the healing process is again, learning how to redirect and train those thoughts. And to remind yourself that, okay, when I get into that state of grief, or feeling sorry for myself, or you know, feeling like I wasn’t, you know, the best daughter, that it’s like, none of these thoughts right now change the outcome, this is the outcome, let’s deal with the outcome, you know, and kind of move forward from there. So, I really tried to do a lot of training within my own mind, to redirect myself back to the reality because I think a lot of people who lose people that they love, you know, I’ve had clients say, well, it’s not fair. And I, you know, I miss my mom, or I want my mom to be here. And I wish she was here to see me, you know, get married or do this. And it’s like, got it. Yeah, but she’s not right. So then how do we, how do we deal with the reality of it, because some people can also really get stuck in that area of I just want it to be different. It’s like, well, I can’t be different. And there’s nothing that I can say to make it different. Or you, you know, to make a difference. So how do we work within the grief of the reality of of what’s today? And what’s in front of us?

Brian Smith 56:11
Yeah, actually, I what I do even beyond that, because the reality is, you know, they’re, they’re dead, which is not a word that I use the reality. But I always I’ve tried to help people reframe reality, not to change it, but reframe it. We all come here for a certain period of time, and it’s all really short period of time. Frankly, it’s nothing in the scope of eternity. We all come in, we all go out 100% of people that are born die, your loved one transition before you but they’re still with you. You will see them again. So even this reality, it’s still not as bad as you’re saying it is they’re not they’re not gone forever. And what breaks my heart is when I hear people say, I’m never gonna see her again. I’m like, we’ve got to stop that language. You will see her again, she’s still with you. She’s, she’s better off now than you are. So let’s reframe that reality. You know, again, not changing it. But that to me take that that guilt away from like, you know, I remember, I’ll never forget this. I was at a conference a couple years ago with Suzanne giesemann was speaking, all these 500 parents in the room, and we’re all like, you know, we’re she’s channeling Sanai, this this entity, she channeled she channels, and someone asked, Why do we have to go through this? Why do we have to deal with this tragedy? You know, why is? And tonight as answer back was, it’s a tragedy from your human perspective, from the perspective of your limited small understanding of your your body, and your loved one left? Yes, it’s a tragedy. From our perspective, it’s not a tragedy. This was the plan. They’re back home. They’re safe. They’re sound. I look at my daughter’s like she woke up from a dream. We’re all living this dream. You mentioned virtual reality earlier. That’s a very helpful analogy. It’s very real, but it’s but it’s not. And I had a nightmare two nights ago. Terrified, I’m running, I’m being chased and everything. And finally, in my nightmare, just, I just lay down, I gave up. And I woke up in my bed. And I was fine. And I’m like, that’s kind of how it is here. We go through all these struggles and these, these trials and tribulations. But when we transition, we wake up back where we were. And so that’s, that’s why I try to help people to look at it. So it takes the sting out of a little bit, I

April Hannah 58:22
hope. Absolutely. I think the reframe is really important. Well said,

Brian Smith 58:28
Yeah, well, April, I really appreciate you being here. Date, you’re fascinating person to talk to you. You did a great job as a guest. Let people know where they can reach. I know you have several different websites, and I’ll put those in the show notes. But I also like to put them in the audio. So where can people reach you?

April Hannah 58:43
Yeah, so I do do want my own one on one consultations, right? So I have my own business called Hanna’s healing, I do energy work, the pandemic has allowed me to reach people all over the world, they do stuff virtually. So that’s Hannah’s healing calm. For your listeners, we wanted to give them a 30% off coupon code for path 11. tv. So that’s going to be podcast 30. And they can find all the videos that we’re talking about on path 11 They can also go to their smartphone and type in Papelbon TV. And we have apps on every device, Apple TV, Roku, Amazon, Android, you name it, go to your app store, you can download it, you can also just sign up for a seven day free trial. But if you like what you see in the seven days, put in the podcast 30. And you’ll get 30% off either the monthly plan, that’s 999 a month, and then the annual plan is $99. So that podcast 30 code will get you 30% off of either. And yeah, and people can browse that. The other thing we do with papiloma TV is I invite people on once a month as an extra bonus for subscribers. So we just had a woman on that did Chinese face readings. We have psychic mediums that come on and do gallery readings. We’ve had some coaches come on to do soul coaching. So I try it What I’m trying to do with cath lab and TV is build a community to get to know my subscribers, where it’s not like Netflix, like you subscribe, you watch, and then you’re not talking to anyone. So I meet with all of our subscribers once a month for an event, and, and then the podcast path 11 podcast calm. And you can find all of these links at path 11 Productions. com, but pretty much if you type in path 11 death or afterlife in Google, you will find us. And I really think that you know, you’ve Susan geese minge we have her presentation on there from the afterlife awareness conference. There’s a bunch of stuff that people can browse before signing up for subscription. But I think your audience would benefit a lot from the content that we have on there because it’s more heavily focused on the afterlife, and, you know, consciousness and death studies. So yeah, yeah.

Brian Smith 1:00:51
Yeah, it sounds like an awesome resource. And I know people in my audience are always looking for more. And there’s, there’s so much out there. Sometimes it’s just nice to have a portal, like one place to go where I can, I can find this. And I can just start, you know, Benjen on this stuff. And I know people literally stay up all night watching their death experience stories. So I’m sure they’ll find a lot to like their path. 11

April Hannah 1:01:11
Yeah. So Brian, thank you so much. It was just great to make this connection overall. And for you to support the work that we’re doing and giving me an opportunity to actually come on and share my story. It’s a part of my, my healing journey. So thank you.

Brian Smith 1:01:26
Yeah. Well, thanks again for being here. And I’ll see you at the afterlife conference. Okay, we’ll do all right. Enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you. Bye. So that does it for another episode of grief to growth. I sure hope you enjoyed it. If you like this content, make sure you subscribe. So click on the subscribe button here, and then click on the bell to receive notifications and click on all that way you’ll be notified whenever I release new content. Thanks for watching, and have a great day.

Transcribed by


Addie Babington is a psychic medium, a channel for non-physical communication, whether that is passed loved ones, higher vibrational being such as guides or Angels or messages from a person’s your higher mind/soul.

Addie’s passion is teaching and spreading the word of Self-Mastery and understanding how to navigate physical reality by connecting the physical mind to the higher mind and Source/God. I met Addie a few weeks before this when she did a reading for me and Shayna blasted through (as always) loud and clear. I have taken some mediumship training with Addie and am fascinated with her deep and rich understanding of who we are and why we are here.

This interview is definitely not Metaphysics 101. We get into some deep stuff that will make your head spin. You might have to listen to it a couple of times to really get it all. If you liked my episodes with Roland Achenjang and/or Dr. Bernardo Kastrup, you’ll love this one.

To reach Addie visit :




Brian Smith 0:00
Close your eyes and imagine what if the things in life that causes the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we’ve been buried, but what if, like a seed we’ve been planted and having been planted, to grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes, open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is grief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. Alright, Hey, everybody, this is Brian Smith back with another episode of brief to growth. And I’ve got with me today, Addy babbington. I’m gonna read a short bio of it. And then we’re going to have a conversation like we always do. Addy is a psychic medium, she’s a channel for non physical communication. And she communicates with past loved ones higher vibrational beings, such as guides or angels. Or she can deliver messages from a person’s higher mind or soul. And Addie has a passion for teaching and spreading the world of self mastery, and understanding how to navigate physical reality by connecting the physical mind to the higher mind and source or God. And as he wants everyone to know that they are a past. They’re not a passenger life, but we actually are the vehicle, ourselves. So with that, I want to introduce everybody to Addie Babington.

Addie Babington 1:32
Hi, Brian, how are you?

Brian Smith 1:34
I’m great. It’s really, it’s really great to have you here. Today, I met you through a group on Facebook, and you were doing some readings for people who have lost had children, transition spirit, you did a reading for us. And it was fantastic. I really appreciate that. But I was really intrigued by your views on life. Like why we’re here and all those really deep questions. I’ve taken a mediumship class from you. It’s just everybody know that. And I watched some of your YouTube videos. And I just I really like some of the things you have to say. So I guess the first question I have for you is how did you come to this understanding of the way that life really is?

Addie Babington 2:12
So for me, it’s sort of been like, the more I connect to the non physical, and the more interesting the questions come with the the readings I do, the more in depth the answers come. And often, I would ask a question, and I was just this innocent person thinking that what we see in front of us and what we smell, touch and feel, and all that sort of stuff is what is really going on. But then, as people who had loved ones asked certain questions, I would get some incredible answers. And often I found that in the middle of a reading, somebody would ask something like, you know, what’s the meaning of life? And I would get this channeled answer in. And for the most part, you would have seen me in my recordings that I’d stopped there for about 30 seconds and just watch like this answer from aren’t even know I couldn’t even put it into words. And then I’d have to find words to express. So the more people asked questions, and the more then it sort of catapulted me to ask questions, the more rich and more dynamic the answers came. Until then I decided myself that hang on, I’ve got my own questions now. And then I obviously started doing a little bit of research about other other channels, other gurus, so to speak, and I would ask my own questions and receive my own channeled answers. And it just began to make such sense. It was, to me The more I channeled through, the more information I got from the non physical, the more I pieced this puzzle together. And I was like, This is amazing. This is more beautiful and more brilliant than I could ever have fathom. And so I became really passionate about letting others know that what we are doing here, and what we’re experiencing is just, it’s perfect. And it’s more beautiful than we perceived. And so that’s why I’m really passionate about expressing all the information that’s come through to me, and there’s so much more I believe I’ve just understood little snippets, and that the broaden vastness of this is just it’s yet to be conceived by me.

Unknown Speaker 4:45

Unknown Speaker 4:45

Brian Smith 4:46
So how did you? Did you start communicating first with people who have crossed over Is this a natural ability did you develop it over time?

Addie Babington 4:55
So it’s a combination of the two now I remember the first I guess psychic awareness I had, I was about eight years old. And I remember walking around the house, quite consciously thinking to myself, there are people watching me that I can’t see that are really interested in my life and love me very much. And I just thought that everybody knew that that’s what was going on.

Unknown Speaker 5:20

Addie Babington 5:29
forgive me,

Brian Smith 5:30
yeah, good.

Addie Babington 5:32
So as the years progressed, what would happen is people would come to visit me. And I would be made aware of their loved ones. And I couldn’t see them as in actually physically see them. It was sort of like in my mind’s eye, I knew they were sort of standing around them. And they would make me aware that they were there because they wanted to the necessarily have a message, they just wanted to say, Hey, I’m here, I want you to know that I’m here because most people don’t even think about the fact that their loved ones are actually with them all the time and available to them all the time. So it’s something that progressed, over the years. And the more I became aware of it, the more I gave it attention, the more the communication was, was something that I could establish. And then it was just one of those things that I went on for years and years, I was literally in my late 30s, before I even did readings, and my husband sat me down and said, You are wasting this, you are wasting this there. There are people that want to hear from from people that they love, and you’re not giving that communication. And I just sort of felt like, I didn’t want to mess with people’s lives. I didn’t want to, I sort of feared that if I got this wrong. If I said something that wasn’t right, this would hurt someone. And so I just didn’t want to unless something was very, very clear, unless I heard a sentence or an image very, very clear. I wouldn’t sort of communicate it. And so I kept it to myself, because I genuinely want to help people not hurt them. Yeah. And so eventually, over time, he said to me, you’re wasting it. And I really thought about that. And I thought, you know, he’s right. Let’s give this a little go. And I’m so glad I did. I’m so glad I did.

Brian Smith 7:24
Yeah. So how long have you been giving readings for people?

Addie Babington 7:27
So this would be my third year. But literally three years before that it would be every now and again. When somebody really wanted to say something. It’s like Eddie, you can’t ignore this. This person’s like insisting that you say, and they never had anything other than Hello, I love you. Because there’s nothing really unless there is some, you know, serious situation going on. They don’t often so our loved ones don’t often want to give us the answer. They just want to give us the support. To let us know that this situation is more than Okay, no matter how it looks. It is more than Okay, so often the message was just like, hey, I want you to know I’m here. And I know about your situation. And I love you.

Brian Smith 8:13
Yeah. Yeah, that’s the message. I think that that we all want to hear. But you know, it’s interesting that you say that people don’t know their loved ones are around, even though I’d studied the afterlife for many years before my daughter passed away. And I believe that people go on, and we’ve taught and in our religions that people go on, but we’re not usually taught that they’re still here. That’s something that’s been new to me in the last five or six years.

Addie Babington 8:40
So essentially, it’s they don’t actually go anywhere, there is no other place, there is no actual physical place. And in fact, if we want to put it if we want to conceptualize it, it’s sort of like an overlapping dimension, where they’re aware of us and aware of everything, because they’re part of source now they’ve reemerged with, with source with God. And it’s sort of like an overlap dimension. And that’s putting it loosely, so they’re aware of us. They’re also aware of what’s coming up what’s happened before our parallel versions of ourselves. And so they understand exactly what situation that we’re playing out right now. And we’re experiencing, and so we think of them as somewhere else, because we’re not aware of them. But they’re actually they’re here in the same space. If we want to give it a word. It’s difficult to comprehend and it’s also difficult to use words to really express the magnitude of what’s going on or, or what is not what’s going on, or what is really with bail us. And that’s one thing that I found so fascinating about my readings is that When you connect to the non physical and everybody can do this, no, I’m not special. And I’ve tried to explain this to people, I am not special, I’m not a chosen one. And there’s nothing unique about me, it’s just that I have practiced this. And the more I practice it, the better I get. But I want, what I wanted to explain is how somebody who’s now standing in the non physical is not who has not got their physical body with them, can send such a huge piece of information in less than a split second, and then it’s so rich and so vast, and then we, as human beings try to use very simple words to express something that took them a split second, and I could be sitting here for three minutes trying to explain what they’ve said, and still not be able to convey how beautiful that message was. So words just fail us we, you know, we we fail with words. So often,

Brian Smith 11:02
yeah, I’ve heard people say, you know, art, we’ve developed our language to describe what we’re able to perceive. So one of the things that that I have a really difficult time with, because people will tell us and the other dimension, the other round, we call it non physical, but I understand what you’re there it actually is, feels physical, but it but it’s not available to us, we call it non physical. And we say, well, there’s no time and no space. And for us, everything around us has always been time and space. And that’s the way our brains have developed. So we don’t even have the language to express like, you know, like you said earlier, everything kind of not happening, but everything’s kind of already happened, in a sense,

Addie Babington 11:39
correct. So the essentially, the idea is, our mind gives us the perception of future and past. And essentially, in this moment, we have a perceived past, when in actual fact, we have as the focal point of it, I have an infinite number of paths of pasts. And the past that I perceive is the past that is relevant to me right now for the experience that I’m going through. And now if you can really grasp what I’ve said here, what I’ve said here is essentially that the childhood that I remember, is the one that is relevant to the experience I’m experiencing right now. In other words, if I was going through a different experience, my mind would perceive a childhood that looked very, very different. And that is because there are an infinite number of paths that have led me here. And also the perceivable future is something that the mind perceives. And so essentially, when we say, there is no other time than now, what we are saying is that time is a human concept is something that the brain has created a perception of, in order for us to experience the continuum. Now in the non physical, everything is available to us instantaneously. And say we wanted to experience going in standing on top of a mountain, we would just be able to perceive that instantly. The purpose of the human experience is to get the slowed down intricate version of what we would do instantaneously in a non physical. And so we get to experience the progression, the transformation of turning darkness, or difficulty or problems into light into ease. That is the purpose for us to perceive the transformation because unless we have the perception of past or perceivable future, everything is instant. And, and that is why that when I first channeled that in, I think my brain Secretary had a note down. I sat there in the middle of a reading and I stared off for a good solid three minutes just apologizing that I could not come back and say what I had just seen. So the paths are infinite. What we perceive right now is what’s relevant for the experience we’re experiencing right now. And I don’t know that I’ve conveyed how huge that is. It means that you have so many pasts that you just don’t understand right this minute because this is the version of yourself that you are

Brian Smith 14:42
Yeah, it’s it’s mind blowing. It’s mind boggling. And it’s kind of fun to to kind of play around with you know, and try to get our heads around. So, what you said kind of purpose of coming here is to transform darkness into light. So is that is that the purpose why we we give up this This place where we could do whatever we want, whenever we want however we want, and we come to this place where we feel so limited and so constrained.

Addie Babington 15:09
So, all of that is it and we like to call it God or source all that is, does not know itself. And for all that is to know itself, it must know what it is not. And so, essentially, we have the light. And the opposite of that is the shadow or the darkness. And then it is an infinite splitting continuously. I can’t hear you, but we

Brian Smith 15:42
know that sorry, it was alarm.

Addie Babington 15:45
That’s okay. So, so for all that is to know itself, it has to understand what it is not instead that this there’s this infinite splitting of all the rich, beautiful experiences that all that is and I’ve got the light coming at me a little strangely. So. So essentially, it feels like, especially as as human beings, and I’ll just shift my camera a little bit, especially as as human beings, we start to perceive the idea that, you know, we’re we’re, we’re just experiencing something that is done to us when that is not the case, we are infinite consciousness. And when I say all that is it means that if all that is, is all that is that includes us. So if all that is is God, that must mean that where God where the perspective of God, and so for God to know itself to really, really know itself, it’s going to play out every single variable that he can perceive. And, and if you can understand that it’s not just human experience, there would be other experiences that the human brain would not be able to perceive. And so we are a split. If you want to think if you think all that is has split into darkness and light, we are a one of those little tiny splits of all that is experiencing itself through this perspective through this focal point.

Brian Smith 17:26
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that’s a really interesting concept that I want to make sure that people understand it, because it’s difficult to wrap your head around. Because when it’s big, when someone says, I am God, you are God, that’s taken as blasphemy. I mean, that’s the reason why they stone that’s why the reason why they hang Jesus because He said, You know, I am God. But it’s a concept that and other religions, like I’ve learned this recently Hinduism, that’s a very, that’s the concept that there was there was Brahma, which is all that is, and splits itself into all these various minds, which we are. And so we were all just, it’s kind of like fractals, we’re all just part of this one greater thing. And it’s so you know, people at first might hear that and think, Oh, this is blasphemy. I’m not God, you’re not God. But as you said, if that’s all that is, then everything that is makes up all that is correct.

Addie Babington 18:18
And it’s just see, I understand I was bought a board up in a Christian background. And the thing with that I found with my Christian beliefs was that I was worried, am I doing enough to go to heaven. And so the focus for me specifically was not the love of God, or the assistance of God, the fear of going to hell. And one of the very first things that I learned, one of the very first lessons that I learned, and I think that that’s one of the things that those who are standing from the non physical perspective want us to understand is that there is no hell, we can create the perception of health, we can also create that when we pass, if we believe that we have done something bad, we can create the perspective of going to hell, but as an actual place as opposed as like heaven and hell, there is no hell, there is physical, and there is non physical. And for me, at first, it was just like, that was the most freeing thing. And I could get on with loving God and I could get on with experiencing God, because it took the thing that I feared and said, well, that’s nothing you need to think about. And I was like, Great, now that I’m not thinking about that, what else can I look into? It was so beautiful. And there are people that I have connected to who are now in the non physical, that have done some pretty bad things from from my human perspective. And they stand in the non physical with everyone else and often I have being told, God’s love is just something that we can’t perceive. God’s love is unconditional. And that means God puts no conditions on love. In other words, nothing that you do here could be that bad that you will be eternally sent somewhere. It’s just not possible, because it just does not exist.

Brian Smith 20:24
Yeah, and that is a very freeing concept that I think people need to really understand. Because this this idea of, you know, love and fear cannot really coexist. So if we fear God, and I grew up in a Christian home, and I was taught to fear God, and I feared, you know, going to hell. So I was like, Well, I have to pretend to love God. So I don’t go to hell. But I could not really love a God that would do that, to me. It was just something that was beyond what I could do. And I tried to generate that feeling, but I couldn’t do it. But then when I realized that, you know, it really happened to me when when I had my daughter, my first daughter, and I looked at her and I said, if God loves me more than I love her, then that’s one possibility, then, wow,

Addie Babington 21:07
yeah. And I think as a parent, there is nothing that your child can do. Even the worst thing imaginable, where it would make you stop loving them. Now you could have a whole heap of issues with your child, and want for them to be better. But there is this place within you that it’s not, there is no possibility that that level stop. And so if we as humans are like this, just you can only just imagine, you can only just imagine, God, there are there, I’ve spoken to a person who this was one of my most powerful connections to spirit, I was doing A reading for a lady, and this family member of hers, who had abused her when she was younger, and had also gone to jail for killing two people stepped forward, because he understood that she needed an apology, and she never got one step forward to apologize. And he sort of, in an instant, gave me a little snippet of his life. And I was like, Wow, he really made some, probably the worst choices that I have ever been able to perceive. And yet he was in the non physical, he did say to me, there are consequences to my actions, but the consequences are never held. And the consequences are also not something that God imposes on us if we want to perceive God as a separate pureness, the consequences that we put ourselves through, is something that is self imposed. So we cross over and we become aware of everything. And then we are able to step in the physical shoes of those who we have hurt and loved. And so we understand from their perspective, what it’s like to be on the receiving end of ourselves. And when we have become aware of that, we can also then choose how the soul wants to experience that and whether that means I’m trying to assist this person in their in their life, trying to assist them to transform this darkness that I have put upon them, which was and I need to stress this, this was agreed upon. And this is what something that I think people can understand. There is nothing that you can do to another soul that that soul has not agreed upon. Nothing, not a single thing. And so when we become the perceived victim of another, it is just the perception of being a victim. And in actual fact, what you’ve chosen is that experience in your decreed with this other soul prior to stepping forward into this physical reality, and said, Hey, I want to know what it feels like to be a victim to a certain experience. And they say, hey, I want to know what it’s like to be the person who victimizes somebody, and you get together, and you play out this experience. And I’ve often been told, Eddie, that that’s just the worst thing that you could ever say to another person. And I have to say, No, that’s the most empowering thing. I have to say to another person, because that means that every experience is an experience you’ve chosen. And if you’ve chosen it, then you can also choose something else, you can choose to transform this you can stand in the power seat and say, I am the creator. And I want you to experience this. And if I have created this set of circumstances, it also means that I am capable 100% capable of transforming this pain or this experience into something that is empowering.

Brian Smith 24:51
Well, let me let me play devil’s advocate here for a moment because some people would say but what you’re saying is that it’s my fault that I was raped for. There’s my fault that I was abused as a child. And and I would have never chosen this. So what would you say to someone that says that

Addie Babington 25:08
I completely understand. But we’re looking at it from the limited human mind. Now, the human mind you who you feel you are right now is not responsible. Now. It’s not something that you chose with your human mind. However, your soul wants to expand, it wants to learn certain things. And perhaps in the previous five parallel versions of yourself, you were the person who was the raper. And you now want to admit that was for the purpose of experience. And now you want to know what it’s like to be on the opposite side of that. And so, when I say all that is wants to experience everything, that means good, but humanly perceivable, good, and humanly perceivable bad, and everything in between your human mind does not choose the experience, it is your soul that chooses the experience. And so I can understand from our human perspective, how we can go Eddie, that that’s victim blaming, you’ve just said that somebody who obviously didn’t want to be, you know, physically violated, that they they did that? Well, it’s not. It’s not them, it’s not a brain, but their soul wants that as an experience, because it understands that it will expand from this experience, it also understands that, you know, I may be 10, when this occurs to me, and then in the next 20 years, I will learn to process that. And then when I reach 30, I am going to be this version of myself that I would never have been had I not had that experience. And who’s to say that that version of you that 30 year old version of you, is not the most incredible, powerful human being who is changing the lives of millions, who is to say that, you’re not going to stand in front of a camera one day, and talk about your experience and support all those who have not. So we’re not seeing the broad perspective, we’re seeing the focal point perspective, and that’s fine, because that’s the purpose. But taking the perspective of your soul wants to know something, because it knows that this is, really, and when we say it’s just a dream, it’s difficult to comprehend, but it really is just a projection of source. And that projection shuts down every time we sleep. So we retract our consciousness when we sleep, when we go back into the non physical, and we see all our loved ones, and we hang out, we do all these incredible experiences. And then we wake up again, and we place our focused attention in being Edie and being Brian. And when we die, it’s when we switch off that projection. Okay, we’re done with this experience. And we’re going on to something else if we choose.

Brian Smith 28:03
Yeah. And I want to I want to interject here, while we’re going through, we’re talking about some really high level concepts. So blowing some people’s minds, but I think it’s really, because you use the word there, and we keep using over and over again, I think it’s most important word is perspective. It’s how we look at things. And so I wouldn’t talk I want to ask you about the role of the physical mind and the higher mind, and what’s the, what’s the difference and what are the roles of the two,

Addie Babington 28:29
okay, so your higher mind or you can call this your soul, or you can call this the part of you that is always connected to source, if you remember, we are all one, we are all that is we are God think of us as a ball. And then we have these little sparks. And we send our physical consciousness into this dimension, this perceived physical dimension. And the purpose of the human brain is just to experience that is all it is, it is just to be the eyes just to know what it feels like to be it to be Brian, to be you. The higher mind is, what is control what’s in control here. It knows the purpose of why we have projected ourselves into this physical reality. There are certain set themes, ideas, concepts, experiences, that we want to experience as a soul, the higher mind is aware of that and it is sort of like thinking of it. It’s the hive mind is the version of assets at the top of the mountain looking down and can see everything can see the valleys can see what’s coming up can see what’s at the back. And our human brain is right in there right in the valley. And all that we can see is the trees in front of us and and the grass and then beautiful sanded out feet and the higher lines job is to say hey, hey, listen, you know you’re gonna come up to a creek at about you no matter meters time. I want you to turn left now. The human mind, often because there’s a big disconnect, you know, we have over the last couple of 100 years, really disconnected. And there’s a purpose to that. And we’ve disconnected from the communication from our higher mind to the higher minds job is to keep us in check. It’s to keep us running to schedule running to plan and the physical mind is there to view to perceive who we are from this very, very restricted perspective. It’s the same thing. It’s one in the same thing. But the higher mind is all of awareness. And the physical mind is the awareness from this perspective, this focal point.

Brian Smith 30:44
Yeah, I want to I don’t want to take you off too far. But I do want to do something you just said, because you said there’s a purpose for the disconnect in last couple 100 years. And I’ve been pondering this myself. I was just actually writing an article earlier today about I feel like mankind in the last 200 years or so, has completely forgotten who we are, which is we just don’t have any clothes, or is there a reason for that?

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Addie Babington 32:07
Yes, so all that is wants to experience everything, including the disconnect, including the perspective of I am just this little shaman floating about on this, this rock that turns around in space. And I’m just here just doing mundane things like going to work and coming home and sleeping. That disconnect is all part of the experience. But everything is cyclical, right? Everything is a cycle. And so now we are experiencing what some are calling the Great Awakening. With this great awakening is the first time it’s occurred because continuously, right? But now this is the time when someone like me, someone like you starts going, Hey guys, has anyone noticed that there’s some strange things going on? Let’s start talking about these strange things. And then so all of us start to after a little while, reconnect or start to understand that there’s a connection between your physical self and start to reconnect, reconnect with your higher mind. So it’s a complete, we’ve experienced, for the most part, what perceivably feels like a complete disconnect from the physical mind to the higher mind. So essentially, I know that sometimes when I explain things, I make it sound so flippant. And so we just disconnected. And it really is that perspective from source. It’s not a big deal. It’s the human, it’s the human mind that makes it a big deal. Because that’s its purpose, to make it a big deal.

Brian Smith 33:34
Yeah, it’s tough when you get this perspective, when I’m when you talk to people, because we have to respect where people are. And most of us are really rooted firmly in our humanity. When you say it’s not that big of a deal, but that’s what spirit always comes through and tells us everything is okay. It’s not that big of a deal. I’m good to see you soon. I’m still right here. I mean, these are the messages that we get over and over again. And where I always tell people and people that listen to me, they get tired of hearing this, but it’s like, we’re just like toddlers, we’re like little babies or in a walk around. We don’t know. And we’re like this, this is the end of the world. This is the worst that it could be. It’s always gonna be this way. It’s, it’s just everything’s just bad. I don’t I don’t like this. I don’t want to be here. And our higher self is going like yeah, it’s okay. It’s okay, you chose this.

Addie Babington 34:22
See? See, that’s the funny part. One of the beautiful things that we get to have when we’re having the human experience is all these lower vibrational thoughts and feelings when you’re in the non physical, you’re not going to choose that because you’re aware of everything. And so if you’re aware of everything, you’re not going to go to those lower depressed feelings because you know that you can avoid that because it doesn’t feel so good. And so part of the human experience is feeling the intricate details intricate feelings of feeling depressed, or feeling melancholy, feeling happy than the next day feeling doubtful. So we get to experience and Sort of fine tune, that little feeling that we wouldn’t choose in a non physical. And so even when you’re depressed, even when you feel that there is no hope, you are still adding to the experiences of your soul, your source doesn’t really want you to feel like that all the time, it’s sort of the idea is you come in, you feel it a little bit, you learn from it, you expand from it. And that should catapult you into a much more positive feeling. But because of the fact of the huge disconnect we’ve had, and we just sort of feel like we’re just human beings walking around, and all we can see touch, smell and taste is all that’s going on. Because there is this huge disconnect. That’s why we can often so many people find themselves in those lower vibrational feelings, not understanding that those lower vibrational feelings, those helpless feelings are there really to learn from. And then for them, to catapult us into better experiences, learn from those feelings. Don’t ponder in them. And then you’re supposed to feel it, understand what it is that you the reason why you’re feeling it. And then use that to transform yourself because that’s our purpose here. The purpose is transformation, we understand our soul understands that we start off in the non physical. We come here we have a physical experience, which is literally the blink of an eye from the non physical perspective. And then we go back to the non physical. So this human experience, it doesn’t really matter from the souls perspective, what happens, because it’s not permanent. It is literally the blink of an eye.

Brian Smith 36:37
Yeah, and that’s, that’s a concept again, I’ve been trying to get across to people and we could only speak it’s kind of like at there’s a guy I love his name is Bernardo kastrup, he talks about the power of allegory. And people ask, why are all these religious things, written allegories, like because we can’t really put them into words, we can’t put reality on words. So we write it in allegory. So I use a lot of analogies with people. And so when people say I say life is like a dream, and people go, well, it’s not real, it’s real. But when your energy, I had a terrible dream last night, I was being chased by somebody that was trying to kill me. And when I was in the dream, it felt very real to me. And I felt like, you know, I had to get away. When I woke up, I was in my bed, and it was like, but that doesn’t matter. Because it was just a dream. I mean, I knew I was okay the whole time. And I, I think that’s kind of what’s like when you wake up on the other side,

Addie Babington 37:24
exactly like that. But this is what people don’t understand, we wake up on the other side, every time we sleep, you’re not here for the for the 80 years that we think we are, we are here for snippets of that half of it’s here, the other half is in the non physical. And the forgetting part is very, very much on purpose. Because if we were to remember everything about us and who we are, then it’s not going to be as dynamic or rich, it’s just going to be like a year. Now, I’m not going to do that horrible negative thing. I’m not going to do that, because I don’t have to because I’m God. But that forgetting part is actually extremely vital for the experience is vital.

Brian Smith 38:03
So let’s talk about how to how to our belief systems create physical reality, how does that work?

Addie Babington 38:08
Okay. So if you want to think of the human brain as the film in a projector, and source is the light that passes through the film, and then projects, what you say, right? You project what you see in front of you. What’s embedded in that film, is what you’re going to say what the projection is going to be. So in other words, what source projects onto your physical reality is the content of your brain. If you believe that whatever your belief system is, if you believe that all bad people are out to get you, then that is what you’re going to project. So when you are experiencing something, and you’re like, this is the worst thing, I can’t handle it for one more minute, you need to stop and ask, what must I believe to be true about myself? What must I believe to be true about myself, for me to be experiencing this, for me to be feeling this way? Because our feelings are the clue. Our feelings are the clue to our belief systems. So we have a feeling about something we don’t like. You ask yourself What must I believe to be true about this? Once you work out the belief, I believe that bad people are out to get me or there are lots of bad people in the world and I can’t get away from them. Then you peel back that layer and you go, actually was that when I was young, I had around me a person who I perceived as bad because they really, really hurt me. And so I then generated the belief that bad people are out to get because I couldn’t avoid this person. And so because I was quite traumatized by that experience, I’ve created that belief. And so what you boast believe to be true is what you As the infinite creator, that you are, continue to project on your physical reality. It’s really everybody is their own universe. What you are seeing right now this conversation that we’re having, I’m having it all by myself and I’m experiencing the version of you that I’ve created with my consciousness, then we can go down this rabbit hole as far as you like, but it’s never ending. I’m creating this conversation. And every conversation that we have is helpful, it’s a little clue as to what we as souls are trying to learn. every conversation that you have, is a clue as to what you are learning as a soul at this time. And so when I say I am my own universe, there’s no one else here, it’s me, or this projection is mine. And I am by myself, I am alone. Because I’m source, you are also source and you are projecting your own universe. And you have your version of me, it’s me, but it’s your version of me created with your energy. And so we’re having this interaction. And when you can understand that there was no one else, it’s just you. I know it’s big, then you can understand that, once you change what you believe, once you change your perceptions, what is being projected in your universe must to change it is law.

Brian Smith 41:36
Okay, well, that actually kind of leads us to our where I wanted to talk about the law of attraction, because that’s something that I like to get your perspective perspective on it. So what do you think about the law of attraction? Do people have a right to the people have it wrong? What do you really think about it?

Addie Babington 41:50
So the law of attraction is very real. It’s not that it’s not real. It’s just that it’s so it’s more than just what you think in how you feel in the moment is what you’re going to attract. And it’s more than just, you know, I want this perfect relationship, for example. And so I close my eyes. And I visualize this perfect relationship, and I spend time manifesting what it would look like, it’s more than that. And that is a component of it. Yes, you can create that image in your mind and raise your vibration and feel really good about it. However, your belief systems are everything when it comes down to the law of attraction. So if you believe that everybody else can find love, and you can’t, because you have a belief that says I’m unlovable, then no matter how much you sit and close your eyes, you cannot bring in that relationship. Or you will bring in a relationship that will cause upheaval within you, so that you can learn to love yourself, and you can learn to stand up for yourself. In order for you to be the version of yourself you need to be. In other words, change your belief systems through experience. So you can be the version of yourself you need to be to have the relationship you so desire. So what happens to a little girl who her father isn’t part of her life, it’s not that mum and dad are devices, that dad works a lot. And then when he comes home from work, he’s tired, he doesn’t have much time. doesn’t have much he loves his daughter just doesn’t have much time to hang out with her. And so she approaches dad, Hey, Dad, I haven’t seen you all day. Can you play with me, but dad’s tired. Now that little girl from her perspective, feels like, I’m not interesting enough, that he doesn’t love me enough to want to play with me because I know that those who really want to those who really love me play with me. And so she’s come up with this perception of, I’m not lovable. And men in general, don’t find me lovable. And she goes off into the world. And she’s looking for that perfect relationship. And she sits there. She’s trying to visualize and manifest and feel great about it. But she still has this belief system of, I’m not lovable. Now, source loves us so much. Our soul loves us so much that it wants to give us that of which we say we want. But we still need to be that version of we need to be the vibrational match to that thing we want. In other words, we need to believe that we are worthy of it. So we will be presented with a series of experiences somebody perceived the negative, but everything is done out of love. The universe is positively skewed. So we will be presented with we will create or attract certain experiences so that we can learn to love ourselves. We can learn to forgive our father and uncomfortable understanding that he loved you he was just tired. Once you shift that belief. Once you come to that understanding, you are no longer locked into that belief system. And so then you are free, you are free to have that relationship you want, you must first remove the paradigm, the belief system, if it’s their source is going to project its constant, its infinite consciousness through that belief system. And that’s what you’re going to create for yourself.

Brian Smith 45:19
Yeah, so here’s the, here’s the question I have. So we say we come, we come here, and we have negative, it’s what we call negative experiences. And that’s part of the experience, right? So the law of attraction would seem to say, we could bypass that, that we could say, I, if I have the right belief systems, then I can have a carefree, wonderful life, because that’s what my physical, that’s what my human mind wants, my physical wants. So does our higher self, does the higher self give us everything we want at that point? Or does the higher self say no, you still need to have these experience?

Addie Babington 45:53
So let me put this statement to you. Every single prayer gets answered. And it gets answered instantly. And you can put the heck are you talking about it? That’s the most ridiculous thing you’ve ever said. So you’ve put it out there God, I want to buy a new Ferrari and God’s like done. Okay, first thing you need to do is go get your accounting sorted. And so you get this little perception you but you will be reminded on the spot? Did I get my taxes sorted? Not I’ll do it later on. sources like okay, no problems, then tomorrow will remind you, Hey, can you go get your taxes. So because you said you wanted this Ferrari. And so what it’s doing is it’s giving you a series of things that you need to experience and bypass and travel through. In order to attain that thing you say you what you still need to be, you still need to be a vibrational match to it. You also, you also must believe that you can have this Ferrari. So and that’s the irony here, source wants to give you what you want. And so we’ll put you through a series of circumstances where it will shift your belief systems slightly, slightly slightly, until you can attain that thing you want. The thing is, we have such a disconnect from our higher mind, we can’t hear the guidance from our soul. And as we go through this great awakening, people are going to start seeing the signs. And so at first, it starts with external signs, and we start noticing, you know, someone driving around with their accounting vehicle or we stop, you know, we think we stopped at the store and right in front of us is this accounting, you know, do your accounting only $50 for this week. And so we get a lot of external science, the next step is to hear the information in your head, to just recognize when a thought is actually not your brains thought. And actually, if thoughts sent to you from source or an angel or a guide, doesn’t matter. It’s all non physical. And so, at first we see the physical science that stage one, stage two is to really start going, Okay, I heard that that wasn’t my brain, that was communication, everything has mental telepathy. And then we take action. Once we take action, we invite more information. So I’ve heard in my head, go do your taxes and fine, okay, do I go do my taxes? Great. Next step is ring your friend. I don’t know why ringing my friend, I call my friend. Oh, so I put together with this new guy. He’s a, you know, a car dealer. Oh, he’s so great. I want you to meet him. You’re supposed to follow the bouncing ball, you’re not going to be told the whole picture in advance. Otherwise, what are we doing here? What is just being an unphysical, we can have everything instantly. So belief systems everything. And source answers all our prayers instantaneously. We are not connected to the information of our soul. But we’re starting to. And it’s very, very powerful. And I think when we all get to a place where we have that fluid communication between our soul and our conscious mind, we won’t choose to have negative experiences. And if we do, we’ll understand the beauty of them. Because we’ll understand that this negative experience, no matter how it might be perceived, is actually catapulting us into a more beautiful direction because source is continuously giving us what we want.

Brian Smith 49:25
So how do we gauge? Yeah, it is It’s really big. So how do we start to connect to our to our higher self? How do we how do we improve that connection?

Addie Babington 49:36
So essentially, what you want to do is when you have this bright idea, you’re mowing the lawn and all of a sudden you have this bright idea. The amount of times we talk ourselves out of an idea that we know will help we do it 95% of the time. Hey, you should go and call your friend And that’s thought at random seem seem perceivably random thought has come up in your head a few times, and you’ve got to do it later. know, when you hear something or see something or have this bright thought, try counting down from five and then actioning. So 54321 action, otherwise, we talk ourselves out of it. The first place to start is, when you have this bright idea, a random thought, you don’t even have to know whether it’s from source or not. But you can feel it’s a good idea. Action it, don’t talk yourself out of it. Don’t give yourself a minute to I’ll do it after this. No accident on the spot. It’s coming to you at the perfect time. And you can action it right now. Otherwise, it will come to you the synchronicity of everything is perfect. The first step is when a bright idea comes to you out for down from five, and just action. And the more you do that, you’ll be shocked as to what you can do in seven days, how much life can turn around in a week. Actually, every brilliant idea that feels brilliant. And you don’t need to understand why you just need to take the action, you will never tell you why very rarely Will you hear why? That’s part of the faith. That’s part of the trust. And interesting. So

Brian Smith 51:15
do you what are your thoughts about soul planning? We do we do our planet, we plan our lives before we come here? Or can we are we can we say okay, well, now this is what I want to do. And again, because everybody’s we all we all do we all want to be rich, we all want to have carefree lives, we all want to have perfect health. So is that possible? Or do we have a plan that we need to follow?

Addie Babington 51:38
So essentially, it’s it’s not a plan, it’s more or less a blueprint. So we slip off into this physical reality. And we say I have the theme of abandonment, I want to experience and the purpose is I want to experience some sort of abandonment when I was when I’m little. And I want to transform that I want to overcome that I want to be so much more powerful because of that experience by the end of our life, or at the end of my life. So essentially, the the idea is we have certain set themes, which whether we like it or not, we’re going to experience but it’s it kind of sounds like oh, you know, I want abandonment. And that’s a that’s a terrible thing. Why would I choose that. Because who you become after you conquer that theme. You appreciate it so much. And so there are set themes, and there is free will, from your higher minds perspective from your soul’s perspective, but from the physical brains perspective, freewill is not as free as we perceive, your higher mind still has this idea of the things that it must or wants to experience during the time. And so it will keep keep, it will keep you on your path. And so the freewill component of of it is, is appreciate the experience and be excited as to what’s next. Watching it like a movie or perceiving it as an hour. This is exciting no matter how your brain might perceive it, or wonder where this is going to take me. So the freewill component is how we feel about what we’re experiencing. Right. And so there is planning and everything is planned an end, every soul that’s projected into your physical reality is there by agreement, hey, I want to experience this that’s in alignment with what I want to experience. Let’s meet up. And so everything’s agreed upon. But I did want to add this, the things that you are interested in unexcited about the themes that your soul chose. And so your soul sends you the information that this is the theme that I want you to experience. For example, you and I are interested in spirituality, and we’re excited about it, we’re passionate about it. That is because our soul shows this wanted to experience it to the fullest. So the things we are excited about are the things that we have chosen. We have not chosen anything that is not exciting to us. Even those perceivably extremely difficult situations. Now there are certain souls, which have many adjacent parallel lives or what we call past lives that come in and just choose some really dynamic circumstances, some serious abuse. But the purpose of that is they have had the experience of having a regular mum and dad, they have had the experience of just living a regular life. There is no purpose to that they’ve already done that. And so at this latest stage, in that Souls series of experiences, it said, we want to sink my teeth into something, something juicy. And so it said, Hey, you know, I’m looking to experience being abused and neglected and abandoned. And another group of cells goes, Oh, that’s awesome. I want to experience the opposite of that. You want to like get together and play this out. Everybody high fives each other. And here we are. And so SOS want the experiences, because they know it is literally temporary. But also the expansion that comes to your soul, the understanding the richness, the adding to all that is all that is his understanding of self is huge. Yeah. And so there’s not too much freewill from the physical minds perspective, from the souls perspective, freewill is the choice that you’ve made, and you’re playing it out. And you care carrying it out.

Brian Smith 55:38
Yeah, I think that’s a great explanation of because there’s, there’s always this, we perceive it as a two things that can’t actually mark, we can’t have freewill and have predestination that we’re planning at the same time. But again, it comes back to that word perspective. If we if we plan this thing out, and then we come here to play it out. And you know, as you said, people, some people have, you know, tragedies, my daughter passed away, you know, six years ago, she’s 15 years old. And so the perspective is, though, what does this do? What how does this affect me? Well, how do I get this going for? And that’s, that’s you, you touched on earlier, that’s absolutely free? Well, we can choose how we perceive anything that happens to us we can we can look at it from a negative perspective, or we can look at it from What’s the good that came from this. And this, you know, from a human perspective, it’s both the same time.

Addie Babington 56:31
Right? You know, Brian, you’re part of the Great Awakening in the sense that you are one of the people from your specific perspective of losing a child, that specific perspective catapulted you into doing what you’re doing now. And you are taking it from the angle of at first, it is connecting to other parents of people who have lost someone extremely close to them. And so you’re assisting those souls in that part of the awakening. So your soul said, How do I do that? And your daughter came along, you said, I don’t know how many lives so many this like, She’s like a grandmaster, she’s just one of the most powerful beings I’ve ever spoken to. It’s quite shocking, to be honest, shocking, is in I didn’t, she kind of overtook me, she just sort of went Eddie, you just stand to the side, I’m gonna step over in and I’m gonna take part of your take over your physical body. It was quite interesting. And so she said, I want to assist you with that. And so this was the catalyst your daughter’s crossing over standing from the non physical perspective assisting you from that perspective. She’s assisting because this was part of her goal to she’s assisting you with this, and you’re assisting on the ground here. And you are part of the awakening. And so if that agreement wasn’t carried out, you’d be doing something else, which will be just as useful, but your soul really wanted this. really wanted each catalyst.

Brian Smith 57:59
Yeah, it’s funny, because I think about her, you know, now and I think about how she experienced life. She just she wanted to experience everything. I mean, she just like, I want to break my leg. I want to you know, we’re like Shana, no, you don’t want to break I want to notice like the walker on crutches. You know, she had some physical issues when she was here. But everyone she got diagnosed with, she had rheumatoid arthritis. And she said, I want to know what it’s like to get blood drawn. And but and she had no fear of anything. She’s just like, she just live, you know, flat out. But you know, I think about it, because, you know, people say, and it is tragic that my daughter passed away, but I would, I would not be doing this. I don’t know what I’d be doing. But it certainly wouldn’t be that. So there’s something that was necessary for for me to be doing what I’m doing right now. And I’ve been very fortunate that I have the perspective that she’s still with me, which is why she’s literally still behind me. When I when I do my videos, because I always want to never forget that, you know, she’s the reason why I’m doing this. And she’s still here with me.

Addie Babington 58:59
I think one of the things that we forget now, I have not had the perspective, Addy, and not the perspective of losing a child. I’ve had a couple of miscarriages which are difficult, but not not the perspective that you have had. One of the things that it’s like I want to, I want to explain it like this, and I don’t know where I’m going to express it like I really want you to hear it. But it was something that was shown to me one time and it was it felt like a vision and that is your daughter. And all our loved ones that we see in our physical reality are there by agreement, it is our version of them. They are us. They are not separate. They are us. And then when somebody crosses over, you re absorb who she is and she becomes part of you again. You the way it was translated in my mind was it was sort of like you re absorb that version of her back into you. As in, she cannot be closer. Her being a perceived distances in a person that moves around is actually more disconnected than when she crosses over, and you merge back together and you pull her back into you. She is now a part of you. And I don’t know if I’ve expressed that, the way it was shown to me, but I cried for about 10 minutes after I experienced that, that when our loved ones passed, they don’t get removed, they become part of you again, because they were perceivably disconnected for you, so that you can see them outside of yourself.

Brian Smith 1:00:52
Yeah, that does make sense. You know, it’s something that I’ve noticed, to people that are in the physical, my other daughter, you know, I don’t talk to her every day, because she’s not here with me physically, every day. I only talked to her when she’s here. I talked to Shane every day. So in that sense, and that’s, and she’s actually closer to me than she would be if she were in the physical, Could she be off somewhere else? So it just makes sense. And that says, But the thing is, and this is where I think a lot of us need that work. One, I’m including myself, how do I perceive that? How do I perceive that as a human being?

Addie Babington 1:01:29
Essentially, where you are right now is perfect, and exactly where you want it to be? There is no should or should, and I know that your human mind is asking for that connection. And one of the reasons I did the mediumship development course, specifically aimed at parents was because I wanted you guys to begin the journey of connecting with them, and connecting with them telepathically. They’re with you, and they send you information in your head all the time. And if you practice, some of the exercises are practice listening, the more your brain goes, Okay, now I felt like I connected to her then. And then you try it again the next day, and you go, Oh, wow. Okay, I felt like I felt like I did just then the more you practice that the more the human physical brain starts to understand the information, the more you do it, the more the brain understands it, the better and clearer it becomes until you get to such a point where you feel like, hey, should I go to the store now? Or should I wait for an hour when you know so and so comes over and you will just get the answer in your head. It is a practice communication. And the more you do that, the more the more you will really start to say that they are not only available to us and a part of us, but available for even the most mundane questions, because they care about everything you care about. So if you care about communicating with her, I want you to know that that’s what she cares about. Because you are the same being that’s what her goal is her goal. If your goal is I want to eventually for know exactly what it feels like to connect to her and really feel her presence. That too is her goal. So she is working just as hard from her perspective, as you are from your perspective, to meet that goal, because you are one in the same. Yeah, it’s an all you got to do is pay more attention. And then action. Whatever you hear action is the language of physical reality. When you hear something in your head, you must then action it because it will always be some sort of statement, you should do this. Or you should think about this, like this. And then when you think about this, like this, you will then present yourself in a physical way very, very differently. Action is the language of physical reality. Here’s something perceived something and then take action upon it. Yeah, the more you do that, the clearer the information.

Brian Smith 1:04:12
Really important. I want to ask you because you’re obviously a psychic medium, and you connect to people’s loved ones. On the other side, you connect to higher vibrational beings as angels and guides between far higher, but I haven’t heard people say I can give you messages from your higher mind or your higher soul. So what kind of what kind of messages Do you give people from their higher minds or higher souls?

Addie Babington 1:04:34
Generally, the higher mind will chime in, in a reading when it’ll try to give you Hey, now we agreed upon this experience, and you’re kind of in the middle of it. Now, we’re not going to abandon this experience, but I want you to know it’s going to turn out okay. That’s generally the higher mind kind of wants to remind you of the blueprint. Hey, we had this blueprint. What we’re going to do here, we’re currently at this portion of the blueprint where, you know, halfway through, we’re not getting out of it, because we’re actually doing a really good job of it. But I want you to know, it actually finishes. You know, I don’t know, in two months time, and then we’re done and we can take that off the list. Generally, the information from somebody is higher mind is where, okay, we’re safe. We as in because you’re one in the same as your higher mind that your physical mind are one in the same. We’re okay, we’re safe. Everything’s okay. Everything’s gonna turn out. Okay. However, we’re going to do this, and you want to do this. And believe me when you get to the end, after you’ve done this, you’re gonna look back? Yes. Yes, I hated it at the time. But oh, my gosh, look at the heat from here. Even your physical mind can appreciate that.

Brian Smith 1:05:47
Yeah, well, you’re and and the thing is, I think there’s so many clues when we’re here to start, again, the analogies the things that we go through. And once we go through, like the worst thing, I’ve done this exercise, people think of the worst things you’ve ever gone through whatever it is the worst thing. And can you think of anything good that came out of that. And there’s always something, there’s always something good that came out of it. And if it’s not, right now, because it may be too too soon or too close? Think of something that was a little while ago. And so all we have to do is project that in the future. And say when when I actually when I cross over, and I have this, this bigger experience, and I see the big picture. And that’s what that’s what your scenario, that’s where the faith comes in. The faith comes in saying that no matter what, no matter what things look like that everything’s okay.

Addie Babington 1:06:36
Always everything is always okay. You know, there are some people who have practiced looking into the good of a situation. And with the law of attraction, anything you practice any thought you practice, not only do you think the thoughts you think, but you also attract the thoughts you think. So, if you have practiced looking into the positive of a situation, more positive within that situation will be obvious to you. If you have practiced negative victim sort of mentality, you are going to think negatively and you are going to attract more negative thoughts. So you’ll find that those who are generally in a, you know, slump or a set of circumstances where they’re not feeling so great, they’re not going to perceive the instance, because it’s instant, if there is a negative there must by law be a positive simultaneously, there must be hand in hand. So when is it is a negative situation going on, there must be the equal opposite positive situation going on. But because you’re in such a negative vibration, you can’t perceive it. And that’s okay. And sometimes we need that distance to look back. But if you have practiced positive thinking, if you’ve practiced looking for the meaning and purpose, nothing is random. Not a single thing, not one blade of grass in front of you, is random, it is pointing in the right direction or in the left direction, because it has a specific purpose. So when you look at things from that perspective, no matter what’s going on, if you can extract the meaning and the purpose, because your consciousness has placed it there, it is an echo from an experience, you had a childhood that you are recreating. And you’re looking at from different perspectives, different eyes, as you can see, Oh, wow. Okay, so when I see it from that perspective, this is brilliant. I’m recreating the event where my brother or sister did this, and it hurt me so much that here it is an echo of that again, so I can see it. And now that I’ve understood that, you might think that it’s not relevant for right now. But what it’s done is, you’ve understood your brother and sister from back there who really, really hurt you. And you’ve let that go. And when you let a negative belief or experience go, it literally opens up a brand new doorway for a completely different life. So often, we don’t recognize how huge negative experiences we recreate events, negative events, in order for us to let negative beliefs go. Yeah. And so when you really peel back the layers, ask yourself, where have I seen this before? circumstances might be slightly different, but the feelings are the same. And when you can extract the positive, and the depth of of the purpose of this, you can love every experience no matter what it feels like, you can love every negative experience. Now I’ve worked it’s taken me some time. Not gonna lie. I have learned to get excited about things that look terrible. Why? Because I know that the universe is positively geared and also my infinite energy. If I say this is positive, I must extract a positive outcome. That’s law. It’s the law of attraction. So I go Okay, well, this is a really crappy situation. I’m excited. Let’s see where this is going to go because it will always turn out positive, it will always It doesn’t matter how long it takes. It’ll actually the perception of time because there is no time. But the perception of time can actually, it could, you know, turn out for me perfectly in one week. But if I drag it on and I go and I fight it now, and I, you know, I’ve got a whole heap of resistance to it, I can drag a situation on for two months, because your higher mind wants to get the message to you, hey, you down there. This is good. This is this is what you asked for you said to me, You wanted a great relationship with your brother, but we got to get over this. So let’s go. And it will just drag it on for as long as it needs for you to go. Ah, okay. And then I have to do this. And then I’ve let go that of that situation that happened with my my sibling. And so now I can have the relationship I’ve been praying for. Everything is an answer to a prayer. Everything is one step closer to you feeling good. And you must look at the meaning and the purpose as to what happens in physical reality. so important.

Brian Smith 1:10:55
Yeah. Well, Eddie, we’re coming to the end of our time, I promise you, it’ll be about an hour so I could talk to you all day. I mean, I love listening to your perspective on things. Where can people reach you if they want to find out more about you?

Addie Babington 1:11:08
So I, I do a lot of my this sort of spiritual conversations on my my psychic medium Edie Babington Facebook page. And I also have Eddie babbington on YouTube. So the YouTube page is something I’m learning to develop, because I’ve got so much I want to talk about, and that’s something I’m setting up right now. I’m gonna start posting twice a week on YouTube. And in terms of psychic readings, you can just check me out on Eddie

Brian Smith 1:11:38
Okay, I want to spell that for everybody. It’s Addy add iE babbington. It’s b a b i n g t o n, and that’ll that’ll be in the show notes. Also. And I would encourage people to check out your YouTube channel. I’ve watched several YouTube videos. They’re they’re very helpful. The ones you’ve got so far. So I’m looking looking forward to seeing and doing more.

Addie Babington 1:11:58
Thank you, Brian. I really appreciate talking to you.

Brian Smith 1:12:01
Yeah, it’s been it’s been great. I love I love your perspective on things. I hope I know. It’s probably a reach for some people. So I encourage you maybe listen to this a couple times. Now, but you know, it’s it’s it’s good stuff. And it’s really important. I mean, it’s really important to, to, we come here and we do forget, but we forget so that we give remember, I don’t know why we play this game, but we do.

Addie Babington 1:12:25
It is the beauty of that. Transforming darkness to light. And we can’t transform darkness. We can’t perceive darkness if we’re if we know that we’re God because God’s just beautiful in love. And so if we know we’re God, and we haven’t forgotten, then we can’t have this perceived darkness experience and it’s only temporary. It’s only temporary.

Brian Smith 1:12:47
Edie, thanks a lot. Appreciate you being here. Go out and have a good rest of your day.

Addie Babington 1:12:51
Thank you so much, Brian, you take care of yourself.

Brian Smith 1:12:53
Alright, see you soon.

Addie Babington 1:12:54
Okay, bye bye.

Brian Smith 1:12:57
That’s it for another episode of grief to growth. I sure hope you got something out of it. Please stay in contact with me by reaching out at www dot grief to growth calm. That’s grief the number two or you can text the word growth to 31996 at simply text growth gr o wt h 231996. So if you’re watching this on YouTube, please make sure you subscribe. So hit the subscribe button and then hit the little bell here. And it’ll notify you when I have new content. Always please share the information if you enjoy it. That helps me to get more views and to get the message out to more people. Thanks a lot and have a wonderful day.

Transcribed by


Dolores Cruz grew up in Los Angeles where she attended USC as a Theatre Arts major.

While working full time as an elementary school teacher, and part-time as a dance teacher at a local dance studio, she and Joey raised their 4 children – Nicholas, Jessica, Vanessa, and Eric. Dolores never hesitates to mention that Eric came as a total surprise, against the odds, and brought even more joy to their family than they already had as they continued to live a very busy, full life as a family of 6.

On May 12 of 2017, tragedy struck when Eric was killed in a car accident on his way home late one night after being out with some co-workers. In deep grief and despair from the reality that now her beautiful life as a mother of 4 was shattered, Dolores began a search for answers as to how this could happen. Dolores is a fellow Shining Light Parent in Helping Parents Heal.

Dolores is the author of Look Around; A Mother’s Journey from Grief and Despair to Healing and Hope. Her book not only tells the story of her spiritual journey, but also tells about Eric, who he was, how he touched all those around him, and how she now understands that he was meant to come to this world for a short time so that his family could continue to learn and grow and pass on his legacy of love. Dolores continues to honor Eric by sharing healing and hope with other parents whose children have transitioned as an Affiliate Leader and Caring Listener with Helping Parents Heal.

Dolores is a retired school teacher who now teaches tap dance through the local community college. She takes yoga classes and acting classes, and enjoys spending as much time as possible outdoors enjoying nature. She resides in Los Angeles with her husband and their two boxer dogs.

You can reach Dolores at:



Brian Smith 0:00
Close your eyes and imagine what if the things in life that causes the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we’ve been buried, but what if, like a seed we’ve been planted and having been planted, to grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is grief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. Everybody This is Brian Smith back with another episode of grief to growth and today I’ve got with me a federal shining light parent and her name is Dolores Cruz. Dolores group grew up in Los Angeles where she attended USC as a theater arts major. A few years after she received her Bachelor of Arts she met her husband Joey and while taking classes or she met Joey while taking classes at a theater in Hollywood. She put her acting aspirations aside when they married in 1985. And she immediately started her family. While she was working full time as elementary school teacher and part time as a dance teacher local dance duty studio she and Jade Joey raised their four children, Nicholas, Jessica, Vanessa, and Eric, Delores never hesitate to mention that Aaron came as a total surprise. And we’ll probably talk about that as we get into the interview. I guess the odds of you brought even more joy to their family than they already had, as they continue to live a very busy life full life as a family of six. Then on May 12, of 2017 tragedy struck when Eric was killed in a car accident on his way home late one night. We’ll talk about that. And what I don’t want to spoil the whole thing by bringing the entire bias. So what we’ll talk about that as we get into it, but Dolores is the author of the book, look around a mother’s journey from grief and despair, to healing and hope. And her book tells not only the story of her spiritual journey, but also tells about Eric, who he was and how he touched all those around them. And now she understands what was that he was meant to come to this world for a short time, so that his family could continue to learn and grow and pass on his legacy of love. And Doris continues to honor Eric by sharing healing hope with her with other parents whose children have transitioned as an affiliate leader and caring listener with helping parents heal. So I want to welcome you to grief to growth, divorce.

Dolores 2:26
Thanks so much, Brian. I’m really happy to be here. I appreciate it.

Brian Smith 2:30
Yeah, it’s great to meet you face to face. I know we’re fellow helping parents heal parents, and which I mentioned in the introduction, that your son Eric transition, so I do want to talk about that. And you’re in your life leading up to that. So I read your book, it’s a fantastic book, it takes us on on their life journey. So we won’t be able to cover all that today. So I want to say people that are interested, you know, go ahead and get the book. But tell me about your story and how Eric came into your life.

Dolores 2:58
Sure, you know, so the usual life that we all hope to have, right? You know, I went to college, I met my husband had our family, our four kids more than we expected. And I don’t know if that’s what you want to mention, but we really thought we were going to have three. And I like I said against the odds, read despite precautions, Eric showed up and which surprised us. And we just were a little scared because we didn’t have a huge amount of money and the life was you know, we work really hard. But we just thought well, okay, you know, I guess he’s meant to be here. Yeah, obviously, he really was just Joy’s you know, raising our kids, all of them and very busy and all of that. And so I was still working as a elementary school teacher, I’m now retired. And my husband’s working. And he was out of town actually, when this occurred. So Eric had, he was well, what I love to always bring up about Eric is he was a drummer. MUSIC I’m come from a musical family. My mother was a violinist, my older brother, who also by the way, passed away at age 26, because he had a congenital heart condition. He was a musician and composer. So I grew up just hearing that. And then of course, he also had his rock band. And I was just surrounded by the classical music and the rock music and just it was beautiful. And then my other brother mark is a drummer as well. So I mean, it was just surrounded. And so Eric had that desire to become a drummer. He was about 10 or 11, when he probably about 10. When he mentioned it, we were like, save your money if you want that drum kit, and he did. And my brother who’s a drummer, who’s his godfather, took him to get his drum kit and it was really, you know, exciting. And there it was, and honestly, every day since he was by the time he was 11 when he got it every day he would practice and it never ever bothered me. I just knew I don’t No, I guess I just somehow knew inside that that was his soul coming forth. That’s what he was bringing to us. So, never had an issue with noise or anything like that. And he loved it, you know, went to high school to four years of music orchestra drumline. He was such the drummer and then went to college where he met his bandmates Finally, and they formed their band called jubilo Drive. And they began to play and they wrote their own music, and it was just joyous it was, you know, such a light in our lives, to be able to go and watch him perform. And as I know, also, most of us say about our children. There was just that kindness and compassion. And people just were drawn to him. As I know that, you know, I’m sure you can say about Shana as well. And many of us I’ve heard other parents say the same thing. And there just seemed to be that something there. Anyway, he had finally gotten after graduating college and all that a couple years later, he had finally gotten this job that was just going to make him real money, he would have a real salary. And it was, it was something it was in recruiting, which is honestly something I’m not totally clear about. But it was just, it was a good spot was good spot to start. He had literally been on his ninth day of work, and said he would come home while he was going to stay out with to hang out with his new, you know, friends at work. And so I thought, well, that’s great, that’s typical of him, and said, Okay, great. And he was still living at home along with his sister, Vanessa, and I have my other two children were already living out of the house. And they were extremely close, extremely close, having gone to all the same schools. They had many of the same friends spent a lot of time together. Anyway, so he, you know, it was I go to bed early, because I have to get up, I would have to get up at like 5am. So I tried to get to bed by 930, whatever. 10 o’clock. And he wasn’t home yet, which I thought was unusual, because he was totally responsible. He really was a very responsible, and he was already had been gone a bit earlier than usual getting up early to go to work. And he wasn’t home. And so you know, we were doing the usual texting. I was and his sister. And as I found out later, his other siblings eventually, were texting, you know, where are you? And he initially said, Oh, I’ll just you know, we’re just having a good time. I’ll be home. Don’t worry about me. And

I went to bed. Yeah, got up the next morning about 515. And right away, looked in his room and he wasn’t there. And so went into my daughter’s room because my husband was like I said, traveling. He was in Toronto, on business. And I went to my daughter, and I said, Do you know have you heard from Eric and as soon as I said that there was this horribly loud knock at the door. And I just knew what that was. And she got out of bed. We ran downstairs and you know, it was the sheriff and coroner standing here saying that, you know, does Eric Cruz live here? Yes. Well, he was killed in a car, or they said specifically he has passed away from now he was in a car accident. And as you know, you get the news. And it’s just, you know, your everything falls apart. And you’re on the ground and yeah. Anyway, we the worst thing ever was having to call my husband well, and my other kids as well, but to who he immediately got on a plane to come back. And we never know, we don’t know exactly what happened like that hour or so before because the texting ended about an hour before his accident, which was at 12:30am. So

Unknown Speaker 9:02

Dolores 9:04
you know, again, why was he out too late? Not sure. Was he not feeling well? Did he drink too much? I don’t you know, maybe maybe he was I don’t know, and we just don’t know for sure. So the but you know, he It was a horrific accident. Luckily, it was just him it wasn’t it didn’t involve anyone else. And so we had to figure out what to do. You know, moment by moment. You don’t know what to do. Yeah. You know, you don’t know what you’re supposed to how do you do this? We were not able to see him because his accident was so bad and he the car had burst into flames. It was just horrific. So it was just felt like more pain. The thing is, I felt like I was in a deep dark hole. And you know what that is? Yeah, it No, I didn’t see any light. I felt totally pulled under and I didn’t know how I could ever ever feel joy again. I didn’t worry about it. I just I didn’t say it was impossible. I just had no idea how that could happen. Yeah, to get there so little by little, you know, just someone sent me a book called on grief and grieving by David Kessler and Elisabeth Kubler Ross, which got me to know who he was. And I was able to connect with him. And we started just reading all these books, I don’t know, you may have done the same thing. I just read book after book and people would give me books and they were the right books, which is interesting. And then the one Mary Neal’s seven minutes, seven lessons from heaven. And that just oh my gosh, near death experiences. Oh, that’s amazing. So then I’d read up on those. And, you know, I was raised Catholic. I went to Catholic schools, even our kids went to Catholic schools, and with all my siblings, I was the only one to send my kids to Catholic schools, that was just my choice and their choice, and that was all good. And I was good with it. It was okay with me, I could find all the goodness that was in there. But when this happened, that did not convert anymore. I had no doubt, you know, about I believed in God, and in an afterlife, but I just didn’t know. Yeah, I wanted to know where Eric was,

Brian Smith 11:32

Dolores 11:33
These books helped me to get an understanding of where he was, and they covered me. So you know, the near death experiences, and then went on to just, I don’t know, I have a list in my book. But the mediums that people send me I mean, with things George Anderson, or I read, there are just other books, you know, I should have the list right here. To mention in case anybody else wants to know, but john edwards, somebody gave me crossing over it. So anyway, I just opened up this, this more this bigger picture. And I like to say that so this was my beliefs right here before and it was fine. You know, you had to find there was bad in the good, but you know, I could pull out the good. But once that I started learning, it just exploded. This was my belief system. Now I in it was so much better. So much more so much deeper. And it just helped me so much. And I do want to mention that their way I got an another interesting way that I became connected with helping parents heal was out of the blue, the following about seven months later, after Eric’s accident. I get it. A friend requests a request from someone I didn’t know that and then I get a message saying, Hi, you know, your cousin Susie, who’s really my second cousin Susie? Well, I’m her cousin on the other side. And she told me about, you know, Eric, and my son passed away recently, and I just want you to know about helping parents heal. And I said, Oh, great. And that’s how I got connected by this. You know, how strange is I don’t know to cut Tell me. So it was all meant to be that way. But yeah. Again, just so much, I get so much through helping parents heal. I can’t even begin to explain it. And I went to the first conference in 2018. I know you were there. And it was just amazing. So I found after a few months that, you know, I could I think I can do this as much as of course, we all just want to be with our child. As much as we say, you know, if I die right now, that’s fine. You know, I’m not gonna do anything about it. But hey, if something happens to me, oh, well, you know, at least that’s where I want to be. But I found that, you know, there’s a reason why I’m here. And I have a purpose. I, you know, I can’t describe it in detail, but I know that there is and sometimes I’m feeling you know, the guidance, lead. And that’s all that that’s what really matters. Yeah. And I’m connected to Eric still. Yeah. Sweat really matters. Yeah.

Brian Smith 14:37
So how long would you say that it took you to to find that there was still some purpose in being here. So I you kind of talked about like it was right after it happens. You want to be with your with your child and I think it’s a very, very common thing. So what what was it that what was it that led you to feel like you did have have a purpose to be here?

Dolores 15:03
Wow. Yeah, I’m trying to think specifically, I know that it started, I started to realize, realize that we’re probably within that the end of the first year, I’m just thinking that I started to feel like there, I do need to be here. I think probably not until around the time I got involved with helping parents heal, and all the that I learned, especially, you know, from Suzanne giesemann, and just so many others about, it’s the bigger picture, when I was finally able to look at my life, and people around me and just see that there was so much more, and that maybe there was a plan. And maybe if he was meant to, to live only that meant, you know, that long and that many years here. Yeah. And he had a purpose. And maybe his purpose was, you know, complete. You know, so I started saying maybe because that’s how it came in. It was like, Well, okay, maybe that is like I was I was open to to what ever would resonate. And if and else like I think this makes sense. And I think this is right, then then that became the truth for me. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I think it was, again, I have to give credit mainly to helping parents heal for opening that helping me to open up that belief system. That then I thought, Okay, then I in, in honoring Eric, I, maybe I’m here, maybe the one reason he’s gone is for me to propel me propelled forward to do more of what I’m here to do. It just started to come to me that way. Yeah, yeah. And so I can honor Eric, and honor. who I am and why I’m here as well. To stay. And, and, hopefully, love, as Eric did be as compassionate as Eric was, be as kind and, and all of that. And so that’s what I want to that’s what I want to do.

Brian Smith 17:20
Yeah, you know, it’s interesting, when I when I was reading your book, he talked about Eric, and how you seem to attract people. And that’s, and I’m just gonna ask you this question. Do you think that’s part of like him being the baby of the family? Because you know, that there’s, there’s that, you know, he was he was the baby. But there’s also something that no matter what the birth order, it seems like our kids transition early, when I talk to other parents, there’s something about them the way they impact people while they’re here. And then even when they’re God.

Dolores 17:50
I do agree. It does. I mean, I know, I admit, I’m focusing on Eric as instead of my other children, because he’s not here. I mean, it had been one of them. But then again, maybe there would have been that special Spark, that I do see an Eric. And yeah, I think it became more evident to me what you’re saying, right after, of course, and, you know, as people surrounded us, which was so beautiful, filled, the house surrounded us. And we had them writing in in little these little notebooks that we’ve saved. And what things that they had to say about him that I didn’t even know, and that I didn’t realize and how they said, I remember the time when they that there was this act of kindness, and or they would say, you know, I only met him once or twice, but he immediately made me feel like I mattered. And he took interest in who I was. And I know that’s, you know, not all early 20. Kind of, you know, or teenagers aren’t going to necessarily do that. Right? He did do that. So I heard so much of that, that it does make me feel like there. There was this other act of kindness that I saw that I wrote about that was just a few months before he transitioned. right on the corner. It’s a little bit busy street when you go down to the corner, and there was an accident, and no one was hurt. But there was these two cars were stopped in the street. So my daughter and I walked down there and it had just started getting dark. And we’re you know, people are gathering and we’re looking and and there was like this truck with these for older people more, a little bit more elderly people. And then there was a car over there with these younger people. Well, after a few minutes, I see Eric come out of the house. He’s holding a bottle of water. And he he’s very pensive and quiet. And he goes over and he’s just standing like this, you know, look watching where the younger people aren’t. And I know he was just thinking. He was just feeling that compassion and thinking, I wonder. I wonder how they feel and I feel bad for them. And I you know, and I could just tell I was blocked. him and then after whatever few minutes, he walks over to where the older people are. And there was an older man sitting on the curb, kind of leaning against the light post, you know, they were shaken up, they were not hurt, but they were definitely shaken up. And he goes over and he stands there in front of the manager and watching it, like I could see it again, like a movie. And he just leans over and handsome about the bottle of water, which I assume was a new bottle of water. And the man takes it and he drinks from it. And they just say whatever. And I just went, Oh, my gosh, beautiful act of kindness. And it really touched me. And it’s just stuck in my head. So that’s again, I think that’s a awesome example of just who he was.

Brian Smith 20:43

Unknown Speaker 20:44
Just kind of odd that.

Brian Smith 20:46
Yeah, I want to talk to you about, you mentioned earlier that your beliefs were Catholic, that you were you were raised Catholic, you send your kids to Catholic school. So did when you started discovering this other stuff. Did that come to that conflict with your existing beliefs? Did you feel guilt coming out of that? Did you feel like your beliefs weren’t enough? What what caused you to open up to this other these other things?

Dolores 21:10
That’s a great question. Because as a matter of fact, yes, it it. It took me a while to stop feeling guilty about not just leaving, because really, to be honest, I was already separated from the church, I was not attending regular services anymore. That had stopped already after a couple of years. But I still felt connected. And I still identified, you know, to some degree, I might still do that. But of course, let’s face it, you start talking about mediums and all of that. And then I’m like, Oh, you know, I know, according to what I hear, you know, from the church, or what everybody says, you know, this is not a good thing. Right? I just needed to move forward with finding out more. And, and I prayed about it. I did I mean, I still prayed. And when I say prayed, it became then learning to you know, to meditate, and then to listen, and to ask the questions and see what comes in and help me to know the truth. And I, what I found not only just in this instance, let’s say with mediums, but as I’m learning about other cultures, and you know, Buddhism and shamanism, and just, everything was so beautiful. I thought, of course, there’s not one way, of course, there’s so many ways to to be took no God, I like to I like the word God, you know, I know, it’s, you know, the divine source and all of that as well, the creator. Of course, there are so many ways. So just because I step away from here, doesn’t mean I don’t like it, it just means that I like the bigger picture that I have found. And I think it’s also beautiful, and in my connections with Mother Nature now, which I can’t even describe. I mean, it’s I think, God, you know, for all of, for my awareness, I guess, is what I want to say about the beauty in nature and the sun in the moon. I mean, just all of that, you know, I feel very kind of Native American as well, that indigenous beliefs, all of it is just fantastic. So, as time went on, no, I, I came to understand that much of what I was taught is a false belief about restrictions and judgments and everything you can do wrong, and that it’s really not that that really, if you look in another light, it’s, it’s there’s so much good in all of this.

Brian Smith 23:51
Yeah. And that that is a hard thing. I guess for a lot of us because the church and I don’t, I don’t want to bash religion or Christianity or Catholicism or anything, but there is this built in fear and limitation. And I liked the way you put it. When you set my beliefs were like this. Now my beliefs are like this. And I’ve had people ask me, about, you know, losing your faith or losing your religion or whatever. And in fact, it’s funny, I was talking with someone the other day, a business person, and they work with Christian stuff. And they said, Are you are you a boy, I see you’re a believer, because I looked at my blog. And I said, on my website, I said, depends on a defined believer. What I tell people is I have more faith or belief now than I ever had when I was just confined to that little box that they put me in, right, because as you said, we get outside and we see Wow, this the same thing is taught and Buddhism and in Hinduism and and native beliefs and, and all the all these other faiths that have come to the same conclusions, minus the fear part that we were taught.

Dolores 24:56
That’s a wonderful way to put it. I totally agree with that. But you Yes, it’s interesting, I was just speaking with someone who’s who has a relative who’s elderly now and going to most likely be passing away soon. And, and she was describing that despite being such a Catholic, and such a good Catholic and doing all the right things, that he’s got such a fear of dying. And I, to me, I can only think that that’s again, the fear because of the fear that was instilled, as opposed to the love. Yeah. As opposed to focusing on the love. There is a focus on the fear. So yeah, I agree with you on that, for sure.

Brian Smith 25:38
Yeah, I think it’s really important. And I’m glad that we’re that you discuss that we’re talking about this, because I’ve seen a lot of people we go along with, I call it Sunday school religion. It’s like we’re taught this this this version of God and stuff in Sunday school, and it’s, it’s good enough, it’s good enough, until something really blows up your life. And then suddenly, I’ve seen people totally lose their, their their faith and belief in anything that become totally materialists become total atheist. And then for some of us, though, it seems to open us up. So that leads back to what are your thoughts about when I’d like to know how you react when you first heard he says about soul planning? Or that maybe this was planned for Erica lever? Or how did that strike you?

Dolores 26:22
Yeah. In the beginning, that within those first couple of days, when everyone is over, and they’re all coming up to you, someone’s a few people probably said that I know, what a couple of people. Well, it was his time to go. And I was like, No, it wasn’t, it wasn’t, He should be here. He had so much more to do. And all of that just made me angry. But over time, and with all the reading I did, little by little, I began to see that, yes, you bring up soul planning. I always say that I just, if it resonates in my heart, then I do believe it to be true. And it starts it does feel right. That we Some people say it’s God’s plan, I like to say we did it together. That it’s our plan. And depends how you want to see that then again, some people say, Well, you know, we are God. So we’re, you know, so anyway, however you want to get it, you know, that’s our words cannot fully express the true meaning.

Unknown Speaker 27:27
Right? But

Dolores 27:29
yeah, I, I absolutely. Now believe and I’ve heard so many speakers on helping parents heal or mediums or just explain that. Some souls choose to be here for a shorter amount of time, that they’re that they’ll choose their exit point. And, you know, maybe they’ll skip that exit point. And I feel like he had another exit point that I can’t clearly recall. He probably, yeah, he had this crazy ski thing go on when he was studying abroad, and they were in the endora. And he did one of those things where, because he didn’t know he was new, but he was doing a huge Hill after a couple days thinking he could do it. All right, and he’s down and trying to curve and did one of those things where he’s flipped over and spun all the way down the side of the hill where all these trees were. And he didn’t hit anything. And he was fine. Yeah. I just thought, well, there would have been a perfect exit if if he had chosen.

Brian Smith 28:27

Dolores 28:28
thankfully, you know, I’m glad we had some more years with him. So yeah, I think that’s, that is what I believe I, I, I now believe that it was the time and there was a reason for that.

Brian Smith 28:44
Yeah. You know, it’s interesting when you said that the people come and well, many people say all kinds of things in the early days, and people say things, but when people say things like, you know, it was his time, or even worse, it’s God’s plan. You know, like, like, God snatch them away. And, and I’m with you that the whole idea of, of a separate outside entity saying, Okay, that’s it, you’re, you know, you’re only going to get 24 years, or 15 years. In the case of my daughter, I don’t believe that. I believe it’s a, as you said, it could be you could consider it a joint plan with God and our guides or whatever. But I believe that we’re involved in that plan as well.

Dolores 29:26
Yeah, totally agree. And that’s another false belief that people are brought up with in not only religion, but probably just in society in general, is that we don’t have that inner power. I’m not talking about the power of the egotistical power or the earthly powers. I mean, that we have inner spiritual power and strength that we are in charge of our lives in a much deeper way than anyone really talks about.

Brian Smith 29:57
Yeah, that’s a that’s a really interesting concept. Isn’t it? You know, we’re part of the same organization. So we hear a lot of the same people speak. And it’s an understanding that I’ve come to as well. And it’s a again, it’s a little bit complicated because we would say, Well, no, if I were in charge, then Eric would live to be an old man and I would be rich. And you know, and this is not the way things have worked, you know, worked out. But that’s, that’s our, as you said, that’s kind of the ego part of it. That’s the smaller part of us, our higher self, wants to have these adventures. We want to have these experiences. And, and you know, and we can start to see and as you, as you said, you know, when Eric transitioned, it caused you to reevaluate your faith and your belief and just totally expanded, you

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Dolores 31:43
Right? Yeah, absolutely. Definitely expanded. I’m definitely happy to be where I am is in this growth. You know, there’s always that part that says, I just wish he was right here. Of course, we miss them. We just and but I I don’t feel any I never I mean, I can’t say I never I did in the beginning feel very. The automatic response was what the heck is going on? God, You know what? Why did you? Why did you do this? What’s going on? What’s the point I was a good person, right? Because we connected with gotta be good. And then you’re going to get this and that’s really not yet I have learned it. It’s not about you know, a god standing there saying Well, okay, I think you did well enough. I’m gonna make sure you get these blessings. And it’s interesting when people when something good happens to someone and they go, Oh, God is good. And I’m like, Yeah, but what if that didn’t happen? Would he still be good? Yeah.

Brian Smith 32:48

Dolores 32:49
So I don’t look at it that way. I mean, yeah, I look around me at the this amazing earth. And I’m reminding myself that I am here to enjoy it. And that it is fat. You know, it is so beautiful. But yeah, I just, I don’t think that I, you know, I was angry at first, but now I it’s not God who does things to us. It’s just this plan that again, is still a bit of a mystery to us. And that’s okay. That’s okay. But I do feel it.

Brian Smith 33:27
Yeah. Yeah, that that belief that if we do good things, and good things will happen to us works up and right up until something bad happens. And then it just totally falls apart. And I’ve never met anybody in my life and nothing bad has ever happened to you know, and people that say, you know, even the power of positive thinking and the law of attraction, all that stuff. Again, that works to a certain point, because that’s not the point. I don’t think that’s the purpose of being an Earth is deliver a carefree pain free life. We come I think for for these experiences, which can, you know, and you’re a great example of can actually help us to grow that can help make us, you know, into something that we wouldn’t be otherwise. I want to ask you about, you know, again, about faith. I think this is another important point that, at least for me, I, we were taught in Sunday school, we’re starting church, that we’re all eternal beings, we’re all going to be in heaven again, Sunday. But when people die, they’re basically their God. They’re there. They’re in heaven. You know, some some religious teach, they’re asleep. I just heard this the other day. They’re like, with a dead sleep and then they don’t they don’t return raising or until Jesus comes back or something. But there’s just this thing that I believe that they’re still with us. And I know you’ve got that feeling about Eric as well.

Dolores 34:47
Yes, absolutely. I didn’t realize just how close our loved ones are. And you know, you’re it’s interesting stories every so often someone will talk about Oh, You know, and then this happened and I felt like they were right there. But again until it happens to you, you luck. It’s just an interesting story. But Wow, it even before reading any books, the very first thing that happened that just really I haven’t It was fun. It was wonderful. But it surprised me is that I had, of course, during those first few days been telling Eric, where are you? I need you here. I want a hug from you. And I was saying that often I was talking to him from the beginning. I don’t know why I just did. I just, I just knew he must be there. I just something I automatically did anyway, about a week or 10 days later, I had gone to Whole Foods. And there was a couple people, young people out in front along with these tables. Because it was for what’s called the dare program. And it had they had they were an organization that taught young people in school about drug resistance. And it was drug and drug and alcohol resistance education, I believe. Hopefully I didn’t get that wrong. And anyway, so they were there. And I noticed them as I went in, I thought oh, yeah, they used to come to our school. I wonder where they’ve been. Anyway, as I came out, I thought, well, I’m gonna make a donation. So I go up. And of course, the young man I speak to is like Eric’s height. Eric’s build, probably his same age, more or less his complexion and everything. So I’m talking to him, and Oh, where are you guys? Ben? He goes, Oh, well, you know, they cut funding. And so now we have to come try to get funding elsewhere. Oh, well, sure. I’m gonna write him a check. And he writes a receipt. And just as he’s handing me the receipt, he says, How about a hug? And I, you know, it took me by surprise. And I just said, Yeah, I’ll always take a hug. And I gave him a quick hug. And it was just like, it just I didn’t know what to think, to thank you very much. And then walked away. And I just went, Oh, my gosh, was that you, Eric?

Brian Smith 37:02

Dolores 37:03
I do. I, I believe it. It was. I mean, I think then I was the beginning. without even having, like I said, read any books or spoken to anyone about any of this? I thought, well, he is around. He is with us. So that was the first of many. Yeah, Heinz.

Brian Smith 37:21
Yeah. Tell me about some of the other sides you’ve gotten.

Dolores 37:25
Yeah, so some of the most interest? obvious, maybe the biggest, I’ll just say, and then I can talk about the subtle ones as well. But yeah, but three months later, I was. We our family was attending the party of a very good friend’s little girl who was she was gonna be five years old. And it was kind of a family thing. So we all went. And as we’re walking in, I, I felt the sadness of Eric not being with us. I know he would have been. But then I immediately said, you know, he’s here. So I just, you know, went in with that. And we’re standing around, we were outside around a table standing holding plates and talking. And all of a sudden, right here in my peripheral vision, he was standing there, and he was totally clear in my peripheral. He was in color. I know, he was wearing a Hawaiian shirt. He had his facial hair. And he was looking towards the center. Like he was just standing around with us. Hmm. And I just slowly turned my head to look and of course, he dissolved away. But I knew that he was just saying, I’m here. Yeah, way of letting me know. And it was, and I told my family about it. And they loved it.

Brian Smith 38:41
Yeah, yeah.

Dolores 38:43
So yeah. And then another time as far as seeing him, and these were the only times well, kind of was just two years later, which was couple years ago. And I was we my husband and I were with some friends in Europe, we were at Prague Castle. And in at the, when they say, castle, it’s this large area with many buildings. And so there’s this extremely old church, I don’t know it’s from the 13 or 1400s or something. And so we were climbing up those, the spiral staircase that’s all cement and you’ve got walls, you can touch to each side here. And there’s like 280 steps or something silver walking up to go to the top and, you know, we’re older. So we’re huffing and puffing and laughing. And I’m at the front. And so I look back in there’s the spiral, to look at my friend and I saw Eric stare there for just a moment just kind of even not solid, but just kind of ethereal. I don’t know how else to describe it. But I saw what he was wearing. And it was between my husband and my friend. My name is Linda and I just again, it was like Oh, it was just for a few seconds. Yeah. And I told them all I said, well, Eric’s with us because I saw him. Wow. Yeah, it was. And that was really that more obvious. So I did have him, tell him speak to me once, where I was about six months later, and I was in bed at night. And I would always go to bed a little bit ahead of my husband, because I had to get up so early. And he was just more of a night owl, and I would just get tired. But he and I would always, you know, when I go to bed, you need just kind of lay there with me, we talk for five or 10 minutes. And then he kissed me goodnight. And then he closed the door and go out. And whenever you go out, I just cry. Because I don’t know, that was just my time. And I cry. And I talked to Eric and I had taught myself to do a self guided meditation, which Dr. Mark Pitts stick was one of the people that had I’ve had that opportunity. And I’ve heard a couple of others. Anyway, I taught myself that at night, I would just guide myself and go to this beautiful place to be with Eric. And that night, I was extra tired. And I said, Eric, I’m instead of doing the full five minute intro to get there. I just did Eric, let’s just let’s just meet. So I did the, the imagining of being there and seeing him coming. And all of a sudden right here, I heard it just kind of on the inside of my ear. I heard I’m right here, mom. And it was it was again, it’s it’s a little surprising. It’s also beautiful, and it was peaceful. And I just who was just covered with peace, and I just went to sleep. Yeah. And again, just such beautiful gifts that, you know, we don’t get them all the time. And that’s okay. Because once is enough, just to let you know, really, you know, if you believe it, then it’s with you always, because they’re always with us. Yeah.

Brian Smith 41:57
Well, I really appreciate you sharing that because I think a lot of us have had similar experiences, and people will chalk it up to Well, I’m just hallucinating is wishful thinking, because people don’t typically don’t talk about it a lot. And as I’ve as I’ve been on this journey, and I’ve talked to people who are actually opening up, you know, I’m finding out this is not as uncommon as we think and and our loved ones show up to us in many ways. So I do want to say though, that those things are unusual. actually seeing someone or hearing someone is very unusual, they typically come to us in more mundane ways. Yeah.

Dolores 42:35
So a couple of those cool ways, which are always give me a lot of joy, as well. One thing for example, my husband travels for work. And he does a an annual trip to New York in June. So this was not the first June but I think the next one. And I always join him at the at the end of his work time so that we can spend a few days go see a Broadway show, man, we have some friends there and we visit. So I met him in the lobby and I joined him, we go up to the room. And just as we get to the door, I just went Oh my God, look at the room number and it was 2311. And his birthday is the 23rd of November. I mean, I saw it right away. And then my husband who I hadn’t noticed all this time he looks at it goes oh my god. And it was just beautiful. And I said well, you know, see, he’s been right here with you. And so it’s that kind of thing. And also there was in his room, and these are still there now there was a package of glow sticks. And the four glow sticks. So this was actually just a year ago. And I love that as the time goes by I can still get these are some signs it’s no, but it so my son was supposed to get married last May 7, obviously that didn’t happen because of the shutdown. So it was me. I was so I on a Friday, May 8, I went in his room and I saw one of the sticks glowing. So of course I’m like Whoa, I wonder why it’s glowing. And I asked my family members no one had really been around because of shutdown but of the head my two daughters and my husband had been there. So I asked him Did anyone go in Did anyone touch it do anything? They said no? Yeah, I’m thinking right away. Okay. Is this Eric and I look at the package and it says that that like 60 hours or something for glowing? I thought oh, that’s really cool. I told my husband he said you know, I noticed that yesterday. Well the day before had been may 7 the day that my son should have gotten married. So that was special. So it started on May 7, may 8, ninth Sunday was Mother’s Day, and by then it should have the glow should have probably been on its way out and it was still glowing. brightly. Yeah. Two days later was May 12, the anniversary of Eric’s transition, and it was still glowing. Wow. And I just, and it continued for even yet a couple more days. So it went on for at least a week. Before, you know, it finally died down. We don’t know how it started. Except it happened to touch three very important significant days. So I again, think that was just a lovely sign. Yeah,

Brian Smith 45:27
yeah. And signs like that are really wild. And it’s, you know, it’s also encouraging to hear that your mind is open to those things, because I’ve talked to people and so I haven’t gotten any signs. And then as we start to talk, then they’ll say, Well, except for this or this, and that I’m like, those,

Dolores 45:42
those are the signs that you said you haven’t gotten, right. It’s everything, it’s it’s just the little things like for I know recently, I want to say that, let me just double check that that what, for example, I had these two birds, these two crows, that when I went out, when I go out my front door, my car, it’s just a few steps down. And then that’s the driveway. So my car is like right there. So I can be there. And but then above, there’s some cable lines, right? And it’s not far up. So one day I had gone out when I was still working, and to go to work in the morning, and I look up and these these two crows right there. And by then I was already talking to nature. So I just go Hello. And so I get in the car. And as I get in the car, they fly together to the tree right next door, bushy tree. So I get in the car and I’m backing out to go down and just as I get to about the sidewalk, crows together, come back to where they were they fly together at the front at the other end of the driveway, they come all the way together and go right over my car. Whom and when they went I just felt that energy. And I just want that had to be Eric and then I was like man who’s with you. I just goes my brother with you. Because you know my brothers over there too. And it was such a an amazing feeling. And you know, anyone could have said all these two birds flew by I guess but it to me it was so obvious because it was kind of unusual, that kind of behavior. It’s never happened before. Yeah, yeah. So things like like that. Yeah. And, and license plates. And I’ll tell you about the probably the coolest license plate. I get a lot of like, oh look that says mom there. Oh, look, there’s one over there that says mom Oh, look, you know, so you get those. But cool. coolest one was the one that said EC lives are his initials. lv for love. And then MLM EC mom? And it’s like, wow. Yeah.

Brian Smith 47:55

Dolores 47:56
So. And literally, I’ve got two journals loaded with all I read them all down. And still, I mean, just yesterday, I was writing them down, and they’re all around.

Brian Smith 48:11
Yeah. Yeah. So you’re coming up on four year anniversary of Eric’s passing, right. So um, what do you what do you what would you say to someone who’s early in this journey? Who says, okay, there’s no way I’m ever going to heal, you know, she, she might be able to do this, but I can’t do it?

Dolores 48:30
Well, I would say that, if you have an intention to heal, that you will, that if you it’s all of it, you have the power and you, you may not feel like you have a choice, because we don’t feel it was our choice for this to happen. But I do believe we have a choice as to what we’re going to do now. And as much as I didn’t see how it was possible to get to a place of joy. I believe that the reason I did is because I set out on a journey to figure it all out to find me Not that I’ve got it all figured out. But to understand have a better understanding. And to find that joy again and to find Eric, that was just my, what I intended to do. I did not choose to just sit and shut myself off and, and mourn for the rest of my life. I you know, in that way I was not. That was not what I intended to do. So I just think it’s your power of intention. Yeah. And looking like you said, looking for the signs, not discounting just just believing what, you know, you can believe it or not. So why not believe it? Yeah. If it brings you joy and happiness, yeah.

Brian Smith 49:54
Yeah, I think what I found is a lot of times it’s something I’ve found in comics. I’ve talked to so many people. Is this just being open? And do your own research? Do you know to really understand and know what’s going on? Because the I guess the first thing is that you said setting that intention. But sometimes we can’t even get there. Because we’re just like, I just, I just want to be stuck for a while. So it’s the first thing is believing it’s possible, you know, and and talking to someone like yourself, who’s coming up on four years out and seeing that is inspiration for other people.

Dolores 50:32
Yeah, I mean, yes, you’re right, it doesn’t seem possible at all. And you do have to grieve? Yeah, it is. You know, I know, some people go what, but I’ve heard it put that it is a gift. It is part of the human experience. It is something that we can’t avoid. And we have to allow to move through us. And we have to, you know, as we’ve heard the just flow on that river. And sometimes it’s like this, and then other times, it might be peaceful, and just add to allow it and not fight it. And at some point, cloud if you start to feel good, rather than say, Oh, I’m not supposed to feel this way.

Unknown Speaker 51:19

Dolores 51:20
let it let any let that happen. Because that’s the other part of the gift as well, is that? Yeah, I remember. I think it was only about six weeks, not even maybe a month or six weeks after your transitions. And of course, I was still like this. having lunch with my sister and another mutual friend. It was more of my sister’s friend, but I knew her. And we were sitting eating, and she said, so what are you gonna do this summer? And I said, grave? Yeah. And my sister was like, my sister is totally in tune with me. And she’s like, Oh, yeah. And she totally respected that, because I wasn’t gonna ignore it. Right. I was lucky that as a teacher, I had the summer to have that kind of time. I know, not everybody has. But I had to go through it and allow myself and then at the same time be totally open to whatever was next.

Brian Smith 52:17
Yeah, yeah, I think that’s really important to wait, you know, because while we’re doing all this spiritual, you know, stuff, we also have to not knowledge, the fact that we’re human, and that we miss that physical aspect of and so when people ask me, you know, is it possible to heal? And it was a question I was gonna ask you, and obviously, you You’re doing great, or at least, appears to be doing great. I was hesitate when I say that to people. But there is still, you know, my, my other daughter graduated with her master’s just past Friday. And so when those big events come, I still miss Shayna, you know, I still miss her a lot. And a picture will come up, you know, with her Facebook member just came back a couple days ago. And I so I don’t want to give people the impression that it’s like, oh, yeah, at some point, you just get over it and everything’s fine. No.

Dolores 53:07
The way I see it is the grief is, is here. In the beginning, the grief is here. Yeah. And as we move forward with our child or loved one, and we start to continue to build our life, then our life starts to build around. And then the grief kind of goes just kind of over here, you know, and it’s just so it’s not always in your way, but it might you know, then you become more aware of it on some days, and not on others. So I think and I think that’s totally okay. Yes, I absolutely still have my tearful days. I still, of course, miss my son, and I always will. We do have a wedding. My other son is getting married in a month. And it’s so exciting. And we wish Eric could be with us physically. We know he’ll be here, but they’re spiritually we know that. Right? We’re gonna have the picture on the chair. You know, of course, we’ll talk about So yeah, that’s, that is painful. Or if I, you know, I’ve attended other weddings, and I just cry when I see the mother coming down with with the groom thinking, well, I can’t do that with Eric. Right. So yeah, that really is painful to think about. So that comes up. And I can still have joy. I can still feel that have joy from a connection. I do have with Eric. Right. And so it’s just it. Yeah, it’s it’s such a I don’t have to say it, but they weave together.

Brian Smith 54:43
Yeah. I love the way you put that as we move forward with our loved one because one of the phrases that used to just trigger me was when people say moving on. Yeah, just to move on. I’m like, I will never move on. Right. And that that to me, just I get an image Like Shane has here in the past, you know, 2015 when she passed away, and I’m moving on through time, and like, that’s not gonna happen, she’s coming with me, which is why people watching on YouTube, she’s always over my shoulder, because I still have that relationship with her. And that’s very important to me. It was funny, as you were talking, I was thinking, you start off saying how music is so important in your life. And music helps me a lot. I was listening to a song this morning called, it’s just a ride by an artist named Gemma. And I love this song. Because every time I listened to it, it’s like, it’s the bigger picture you talked about when we sit when you say, this is a gift people go, you’re crazy. How could it possibly be a gift, you’re never gonna see your son again, it’s not a gift. But if you look at it, life is just a ride. This is just a temporary experience that we’re having. And Eric is okay. And Eric is still with you. And we’ll see him again. And then we can start to see, you know, the beauty even even in the pain.

Dolores 55:59
Yeah, and I know how strange that sounds. But there is I have found that to be true, or there is beauty in all of it, including the pain. Yeah. And that’s, I guess why? It can be a gift as well. Because Yeah, because if we’re here to feel all of it to have the full experience, then that is part of why we’re here. We can feel it in other ways besides our child transitioning, but I think it’s just sort of like, like I said before, it’s kind of a mystery how it works, but you just kind of know it. This there’s something that is to this is as it is to be, and it’s all good.

Brian Smith 56:45
Yeah. So it sounds I was gonna ask you how your family or how you’re honoring Eric’s legacy. Today, we’ve touched on several these things. I like what you said about your son, I can’t remember your what’s your older son’s name?

Unknown Speaker 56:57

Brian Smith 56:57
Nick. Okay. So yeah, you said Nick’s getting married, you’re gonna have a picture of Eric at the at the wedding. I think that’s I think that’s really cool. When people do that. I think that’s a great thing to do. And what other ways is your family keep Eric around?

Dolores 57:12
Well, we, he created his own music has been created music. And of course, we still listen to that. And they haven’t the band hasn’t been able to play live. They did, of course, have to move on. And you know, get a new drummer and all that. But boy, when they did play and when they do again in the future, and we show up and we’re there because he’s up because of course Eric’s there. Why wouldn’t Eric be with the band as they’re playing? So that’s a way to honor. But the other thing is that, aside from the fact that I did write a book in his honor, yeah. As that also, I was looking for a music school, because I wanted to do that scholarship thing. And it was funny how I tried one music school and it just didn’t work. No, they just weren’t getting back to me. And then I tried this other music school, same thing. And I just thought that’s weird. I’m offering, you know, to, you know, the scholarship. And so I ended up at this old music school. That’s like 100 years old. They’ve been around in LA in Los Angeles. And as it turns out, that’s when when my mother was 15, she moved from Milwaukee to LA, and she was a violinist. And that’s what she took violin, and it never occurred to me. Wow. And I thought, and maybe my mom has done to make sure that I go, you know, I feel my mom had a hand in that. And yes, so I’ve been I was able to explain what I wanted to do. And so yes, there’s a drum student that I paid for a year of lessons to start, and then it can continue after that, but we started first year. And he’s, I don’t know, I think he’s 12 or 13. And it’s just beautiful. And he’s a beginner. And, you know, I know Eric would love or does love that, you know that he and we are helping this student? Yeah. Have lessons. That’s awesome. Yeah. So that’s just feels so good.

Brian Smith 59:09
Yeah, it also is, you know, it’s another reminder of how things seem to work out the way they’re supposed to. Sometimes we get frustrated because things aren’t working out the way that you know, we feel like they should and then something even better, works out. So you know, I tell people I’m my banker. I’m, I’m an engineer, so I’m a very analytical, analytical person. But the more I’ve gotten into this and more relights This world is like magical. There’s all kinds of magical things that happen. events that happen to us people that come into our lives, like you said, you know, the synchronicities someone gives you a book someone, a cousin of a cousin calls you up and tells you about, you know, helping parents heal, which is changed so many people’s lives, including my life. And someone randomly on Facebook said you need to reach out to this guy Mark Ireland because he’s his son had passed away Margaret and a couple of books and that led me to help him parents see Oh, I’ve been Know what to buy up and parents So ever since then, yeah,

Dolores 1:00:03
yeah, the connections that well we are all connected is amazing. And that is why all those things happen because because we are all connected and, and it is a miracle. Yeah. Who was it was it? Was it? I know if I forget who I’m going to call it the wrong person, but you can look at life as if nothing is a miracle or is it everything as a miracle?

Unknown Speaker 1:00:26
Was Einstein said?

Dolores 1:00:29
I want to say it was it. Yeah. And when you really look at it, everything is so miraculous. And, and we are all connected.

Brian Smith 1:00:39
Yeah, absolutely. What’s yours? It’s been really great getting to know you and and talk about Eric and talk about your book. So tell people where they can reach out to you to find out more.

Dolores 1:00:49
Great. So I have a website which is Delores look around one word. And then I have a blog. Delors look. Okay. Yeah. So and I, and most of that has to do with either spirituality or, you know, the other side of the veil or my son or so there’s just some stuff going on there. It’s kind of new. So I but I’ve got that’s what it’s about. And yeah, and then the book is on Amazon called look around.

Brian Smith 1:01:28
Yeah. Well, it’s a look around and mother’s journey from grief and despair to healing and hope. And, yeah, I did get a chance to read it before we did the interview. It’s a great book, I think it’s thick, it can be really helpful to people to kind of, especially if you’re early in grief to kind of know, you know, kind of what to expect. I think that’s can be a very helpful thing and to offer, you know, hope. It’s really, it’s great that you’re doing this for people. So any any last words you want to say before we before we wrap up for today?

Dolores 1:01:59
Oh, well, no, I think I really got across the main messages of of that we can heal and that we are connected and there is a bigger picture. And I just am so grateful to you. Thank you so much, Brian, for having me on your wonderful podcast.

Brian Smith 1:02:16
Well, thanks for being here. Have a great rest of your day.

Dolores 1:02:19
Thanks. Okay, you too.

Brian Smith 1:02:22
That’s it for another episode of grief to growth. I sure hope you got something out of it. Please stay in contact with me by reaching out at www dot grief to growth calm. That’s grief the number two growth com or you can text the word growth to 31996 at simply text growth, gr o w t h 231996. So if you’re watching this on YouTube, please make sure you’re subscribed. So hit the subscribe button. And then hit the little bell here and it’ll notify you when I have new content. Always please share the information if you enjoy it. That helps me to get more views and to get the message out to more people. Thanks a lot and have a wonderful day.

Transcribed by

I have begun producing a series of meditations/contemplations for your enjoyment and edification. I will sell these on my website and through other outlets.

I will make some or all of these available to patrons who support me on Patreon. Patrons have been getting bonus materials. But, I wanted to share a sample with you of what I plan to provide in the future.

If you’d like to subscribe by supporting me on Patreon with a $5/month or more donation, please visit me here:

Drum roll… please…

Isabella Johnson is an incredible medium and human being with a healing heart. Isabella sees people in spirit as clearly, if not more clearly than she does those of us in the body.

Isabella is a shining light mother who has experienced the passing of a daughter. She has also had a near-death experience. So, when Isabella speaks about the tragic passing of a dear loved one or about how life goes on after our bodies stop functioning, it’s not just speculation.

One of the questions Isabella and I get most often is “What do they do all day over there?” In this episode, we give our thoughts on this question that baffles a lot of us.

You can reach Isabella at:



Brian Smith 0:00
Close your eyes and imagine.

What if ahe things in life that causes the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we’ve been buried, but what if, like a seed we’ve been planted and having been planted, to grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes, open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is grief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith.

Hey everybody, this is Brian Smith back with another episode of grief to growth and I’ve got with me today for the second time, my friend Isabella Johnson, and a lot of people already know there’s a better way but I’m going to read a short introduction and we’re going to have a conversation ever Isabella as evidential certified medium. She’s a medical intuitive. She’s a grief recovery specialist and she’s remote viewer. Isabella has committed her life to providing healing and comfort to the bereaved. Isabel allows yourself to be a pure channel for those in spirit wishing to have a continuing conversation or closure with the loved ones still in the physical. And as a medical intuitive she can locate areas in the body where past or current trauma now manifest as illness and or disease and help release the symptoms. She’s able Isabel is able to see the soul the highest point in our physical body, and she reminds her clients ever true souls purpose in this life. She brings compassion empathy to every reading her approaches very Matter of fact and non judgmental. And as about as a federal Angel, Mom, Isabella’s daughter passed on to spirit. And so her and her ability to reconnect parents with the children, other loved ones in spirit provides comfort, healing and hope. Isabelle is also a spiritualist, and she firmly believes that each of our souls survived the transition, that we know his death, and that we will reunite again and endeavors bring evidence to those that does those in spirit are always with us. So with that, I want to welcome Isabella Johnson. Isabel, I really appreciate you being here today.

Isabella 2:10
Thank you so much for having me, Brian. Thank you.

Brian Smith 2:12
It’s it’s real honor to have you, you are an incredible medium, you’re incredibly compassionate person. I know, you’ve helped so many parents on this journey. You and I both have, you know, children and spirits. So we’ve got we know what that’s like. Because I deal with so many parents, and this is not just for parents, but I want to talk a lot about parents because a lot of times with parents we have kind of specials I think things with with our twin our kids transition, are they Okay, you know, will they grow up? You know, will I see them again, while I while they recognize me those types of questions. So the reason I asked you here today is because I get so many people that just don’t have a really good handle what the spirit world is like, it’s just kind of it’s nebulous. It’s kind of like, you know, are they in the clouds? What are they doing all day? And so I want to explore that with you today. I know, it’s a big question. But let’s start with what is it like?

Isabella 3:05
Okay, that’s the number one question that I think everybody asked is, what do they do all day? What is it like and, and everybody has a slightly different experience with a lot of commonalities. Um, for me, I do not think I’ll call it heaven. That’s a word everybody’s very familiar with. It’s not a faraway place in the sky in the clouds to me when I’m out. This, hopefully, we’ll get back to normal with COVID very soon. But when I’m typically out in the world, walking around, and I’m seeing living people coming toward me, you’ve got three, four or five people in spirit all around you. So I do not believe that the afterlife is this faraway place, it appears to just be another plane or dimension very, they’re very close to our own. Yeah,

Brian Smith 3:47
yeah. So and that’s another thing people may not know about you. You actually see people in spirit

Isabella 3:51
I do I do. I see them outside of myself. They look like you. And I, to me, actually, I think they look more a lot more real to me. Living people, I see an aura around them. So it’s a lot of colors. But with people in spirit, I mean, fine details of what they look like they are able to hold that shape while I’m speaking with them. Okay,

Brian Smith 4:11
so what people do pass in the spirit, and we’ve heard things like, Okay, I’m just there. I’m a ball of light, or I don’t have a body. You know, are those things true? Or? How’s that?

Isabella 4:24
Well, I cannot speak across the board for every experience. That’s something I’m just not comfortable doing. But again, when I’m doing a reading when I’m with a client, and oftentimes now everything’s on zoom, or Skype or FaceTime. I will see the loved one coming toward me and they literally I can do every physical description of what they look like how tall they are, wait, in addition to me seeing them sometimes they’ll tell tell me to say something like oh tell them we’ve lost weight or gain weight or this part of my body is no longer injured or hurting or disease. But I think that for the most part, we do kind of maintain a physical characteristic expression. And the times when I’m working, or it does also seem to be very relevant, relevant when they’re getting when, when someone in the physical is getting ready to transition, everyone in spirit seems to know that plus minus about two weeks. So they informed me that they really take back on that strong physical form in that time, just so they’re easily recognizable when we do transition. As far as holding the shape the entire time holding the physical appearance, I do not know that that is something that is done. I can’t speak to that across the board. But it does seem that that is that is something that they’re easy, capable of doing or easy to kind of recreate for us as well, too. But they are. When I had an Indy 13 years ago, I remember seeing my daughter and she looked exactly the same, there was no difference. It was as if no time had passed. So I do think that we maintain that, and certainly no one is lost into a big ball of light than I’ve ever seen. That’s just No, I’ve never had that experience at all, ever.

Brian Smith 6:00
Yeah, well, I think the thing is, we sometimes think, you know, we hear these these kinds of scripts, and we thought we’re gonna miss something, right? So we’re like, I’m going to be missing my body, I’m going to miss the, you know, being able to hug people are writing

Isabella 6:14
in To me, it seems like they merge. So it’s, it’s even a bigger connection. And we would have here in the physical, um, you’ll sometimes I’ll do a different population than children, sometimes when a widow will pass, and they’ll talk about feeling or when they’ll talk about feeling that loved one, and it’s almost as if they pass through us. Um, sometimes people can have some intimate experiences with someone in spirit, a spouse or a partner or something like that. But with children, it’s, it’s like a warm embrace it sometimes they talk about kissing the face or feeling to me, it’s very visual. So I see it, I don’t know what your experience would be with that. But there is no problem at all that I’ve ever encountered, that we would not recognize each other or be able to connect with each other in some really deep, very deep way. So much more so than even we have here in a physical body.

Brian Smith 7:01
Yeah. And do you think because you kind of alluded to this, Can people change their parents when they’re in the spirit world do we do we

Isabella 7:08
know that I know that I’ve encountered I mean, I immediately after we’ve passed, we really do keep a lot of physical characteristics, we have a sense of our higher self or or the part that we came from or who we truly are. But that we don’t seem to change that much. I think I get a lot of personality traits, like who you were things that you liked relationships that seems to come through that never seems to fade away or end, there’s always a big connection, I’m probably shared the story before most of my clients would have heard this, because it’s just one on ones. It’s just most amazing to me, I have a client who lost her daughter almost a decade ago. And I talked to her just about every month and the mom has some traumatic brain injury. And she doesn’t have a lot of memories. So her daughter will come in every month and talk about everything that her mom has done that month, the relevant things. Even small mom spilled her cup of coffee this morning, my mom stubbed her toe, just they seem to be very connected with us very aware of everything that goes on here. And I see her daughter just the same way that her her mom did. So it’s very neat. And sometimes, however, let me correct myself with that the daughter has seemed to age up over the last couple years. So she’ll go now in 14 and look at how tall I am. Or tell her I’m this tall, or I looked this way now. And she does. But sometimes she’s also able to be that little girl that I saw when she first passed. So that’s a tricky one. I can’t answer that completely. But that’s how it has been for me so far. I think I do not have any concern that we would have recognition of our loved one, when we also transition, that is not a concern I’ve ever felt it or or can’t find them or somewhere they’ll be lost to us or that we lose them or that we can bother them in some way. False. absolutely false.

Brian Smith 8:48
Yeah, I think I think parents, again, we’re gonna, I’m going to talk about parents a lot. But this we want to keep it general as much as we can’t. But when we lose a child, my daughter was 15 when she passed, you know, so you know, who knows how long it’ll be before I see her. I don’t, I don’t want to see her at 45 when I die. You know, our people have had a child a baby, you know, that’s nice. And they remember them to say two or three, you know, that might feel like I’m missing something because they’re growing up without me.

Isabella 9:15
Well, they really seem to love my situation. I saw my child exactly as she looked in it had been 15 years. So there was, you know, and that was a concern of mine as well to even the work that I do. Am I going to recognize you? Am I going to know you? And for me, that was just the J comforting, reassuring experiencing her exactly as I have. And I wasn’t Oh, they’re very long, five minutes. So I can’t tell you that that would be my experience forever. But I knew at that moment, I could never ever, ever be separate from her. And that’s something everybody in Spirit had told me but you can’t grasp it until you have that experience yourself. For me. There’s nothing no doubt no fear, no questioning at this point in my life that I know that I will see everyone that I love again, exactly as I knew them here. Now we’re gonna change for over there. But I know that immediate connection that reunion, and that’s exactly what it is, it is the best family reunion you could ever imagine. magnify your best one here ever by a million. And that’s what it is like in spirit.

Brian Smith 10:12
Yeah, and I The reason I wanted to bring that up, because I think sometimes people feel like, what I’m spending time here, I’m missing out, you know, and I’m gonna miss this. And I and I’ve heard I’ve heard again, especially parents expresses, you know, I’m missing out on what’s going on with them. And so that’s a concern I want to address.

Isabella 10:31
Well, sometimes it is true that sometimes we are we continue to grow and have experience in spirit. But as far as missing out, I think that’s really a human fear. It doesn’t seem to translate into spirit, they seem very confused flux. And by that at all, what do they think we’re missing, we’re still here, we could never be separate. So their understanding is vastly different and larger than ours, which is, you know, confined to being in a body, we have our senses here. And if my child wasn’t around me for 15 years, but was still here, I would have those same questions, I think, what are you doing? How are you? What are you now? So I understand it, but that is something that really doesn’t seem to translate to anyone in spirit? They seem very confused by that thought or that question?

Unknown Speaker 11:12

Isabella 11:13
What are you missing? We’re not missing anything? We’re not? Yeah,

Brian Smith 11:16
I think it’s a different perspective from them. Because talking to you and talking to other mediums that are friends of mine. They know what’s going on with us. It’s like they are still very involved in our lives. Has that been your experience?

Isabella 11:27
1,000,000%. And more so because we’re not, you know, ego, ego doesn’t seem to go over there, either super ego is not there. There’s a lot of it that’s there. So it’s the unique part of ourselves. We don’t try to we’re very honest over there. We’re very forthright about our shortcomings and our successes as well, too. And, and they seem to not that they detach from us at all, because that’s impossible, but they do seem to have an understanding that we will get through this somehow, even if we don’t get through it the way that we want. We expected it to look, we do survive it. And they seem to know that. So there’s the big picture that they have over there. So the little concerns of day to day life that we might feel. It’s not been my experience that they share those.

Brian Smith 12:07
Yeah, a different perspective, because they kind of know right, things gonna break right.

Isabella 12:13
To the final exam, they’ve completed that they’re there, they know, oh, this wasn’t exactly what we expected it to be. It’s better, it’s absolutely better for them. But you know, for parents, there’s a lot of ways to connect with the kids. I think I think people that expect to have those regular conversations and have it be exactly the same as it was when when our loved one is here. That might be a slight adjustment that we need to make on that but to continuing the relationship, certainly it’s wanted. It’s it’s, it’s something that’s hoped for. And I don’t think especially as a parent that we can cut that out or or diminish that in any way. There’s always that longing.

Brian Smith 12:49
Yeah, absolutely. And I think you know, and the work that I do with, again, especially parents, but also other people, we want to keep that relationship going. And we have learned that we can, but I think there could be a problem when people think it’s going to be just like it was when they were here, especially right away. So let’s

Isabella 13:08
not right away, it’s very anomalous for it to be that way, you’ll get a lot of good signs, typically sometimes a dream or to you, because there’s excitement, they know where they are, they’re home, there’s no question over there. And I think the one complaint that I have for people in spirit is maybe just the assumption that we should get that as well, too. That’s a real frustration. My people in spirit really Don’t they know I’m okay. I’m like, did you know someone you love was okay, when you were here? Wasn’t there missing in you? And they kind of go, Oh, yeah, it’s a little reminder to them. That’s a part of being in a body. But it does seem to take, you know, I don’t want to go for everybody, because some people immediately start to have those conversations and relationships continue. But for most of us, it’s a couple years sometimes before we can reach that. For me, I didn’t see my child for one year, I couldn’t feel or couldn’t have any experience. But that was my pain. That was me. It wasn’t any problem on her side. It was my brief. That was very large on that. So but it is possible it is encouraged I any way that you feel you best connect with them. do more of that.

Brian Smith 14:10
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. I guess the thing I was getting to is sometimes I think people look at some of these anomalous things where someone connects right away. And my experience has been even I have friends who are mediums including you who have had loved ones pass and it’s been you know, a year or longer before we were really able to make that connection. So for people like myself, who you know, and people that I work with that they are going to just be able to make this connection right away. And we just like it was

Isabella 14:37
Yeah, for most of us. That’s not the case. It really is not the case. So you might get a few signs and most of us do, you might get the dreams and some of us get those as well too. But it just takes a little bit of time and you’re not doing anything wrong. There’s nothing wrong with you. You’re not bringing too much that I know a lot of people have a really challenging time in bargaining. You know what it should have coulda, if only what if they do not experience that over there. That That’s not something that they experienced. But that’s that phase, that stage does seem to block us slightly, I don’t want to go, you shouldn’t get rid of it, you shouldn’t try to avoid bargaining because we all do that. But that does seem to be a little fly in the ointment for this, when we can kind of, and it’s hard to get to that place where you are not having those questions, I still have them some days, it’s not gonna outgrow or get rid of, I think, again, that’s just part of being human. But, but that does seem to block us just slightly from having that connection, the ease of it, the ease of it.

Brian Smith 15:34
Well, let’s talk about that. Because we call bargain I use referred to as guilt. And I see a lot of I see a lot of people, not just parents, a lot of people going through guilt, right, I should have done this, I shouldn’t have done this, this, this is my fault. You know, I was my job to take care of them. I wasn’t in the car, I wasn’t a car,

right, I

was too strict. I was too lenient, you know, whatever. So that I find also was a block, it’s a block download to that connection was also blocked to dealing with your grief. So one of the things I wanted to ask you is, can we affect someone else’s timeline to being here? Can we cause someone to leave early,

Isabella 16:12
the only time you have any input into that is before you come into a body I all of these are agreements, I think first I know, I do not think I know first breath last breath are decided long before we come into our physical body. So for you and I to have lost a child, there would have been a part of that we would have had to agree to that at some point, as in as well as our own trans transition, what that’s going to look like what that’s going to be and there’s lessons for everybody and all of that. But there is nothing you can do nothing at all that you could do, we’re just not that powerful. Nor am I that we can have that much effect on someone else’s decision choice or option of not being here anymore. Absolutely not. Now, it I think that allows us to be in a victim space, which is okay, because we’ve all been there. We’ve absolutely all been there. But it’s it’s not necessary. And I think it’s harmful and hurtful as well. If you can see that person is autonomous even if it’s our child, you know that we had them were parents to them, but there’s a part of them that’s always separate from us, we cannot control our children every day we’ve all tried to do that is not successful, we can never be successful. And so as autonomous as they are in that aspect are also very autonomous on choosing how and when they want to leave. It’s we need to learn this we need to have these kind of experiences and sometimes they do it for us which is really hard to hear. And really hard to grasp that sometimes the lesson might be for us let’s let’s use Elizabeth as this was a was had she not had lost her son might not have healthy parents you. Right. You know, same for Mark Ireland. Same for you. We’ve we we are given sometimes these opportunities to grow or to shrink, and I wish everyone to grow in grief.

Brian Smith 17:57
Yeah, yeah. It’s through figures. It’s a shifting of perspective. And as parents, it’s really tempting to look at our kids as as our property sometimes definitely as our responsibility.

Isabella 18:14
But they’re always an extension of us. And and when they are not here, it’s if we assume that it’s a failure on our part.

Brian Smith 18:20
Yes, because it was my job to keep them safe. So that’s why I really I want to I want to beat this point to death, because I hear over and over again, with parents and with other people. It was my fault. I shouldn’t I shouldn’t have done this. And and if you tell me that it’s a lesson for me, well, then it’s my fault. Their life got cut short, you know, because I needed this lesson, their life was cut short, which is looking at their life is like it’s only one life and like they’re not living.

Isabella 18:46
Right? Um, yeah, I could not disagree with that anymore, although that’s the space that I’ve been in as well too. So I understand it. But it is not helpful. I think it’s the part that we need to push through work through, but it is never your fault. It is never your responsibility. If the lesson was for you, if the lesson was for your child, it does not matter. It is small picture stuff. It’s what we do with the after. That’s important. If that’s that’s the biggest part of this. And some people need a much longer to handle heal and to deal with the loss. And and there are some few that get it very quickly. That that’s unusual for tabbing. But I think for most of us, it’s a process and we’re not all going to have the same experience. We’re all going to hit some of the same curves and roadblocks as each other but I think our job at surviving This is to help others get through it. And to help others have hope. And and just to find that connection. No, we are more than this loss. Although it’s horrific. It’s cataclysmic. It does not have to define the rest of your life.

Brian Smith 19:44
Right. Well, I think there’s something about being human. I haven’t figured this part out yet that we we tend to go to this beating ourselves up. We were really good at sabotaging ourselves and saying this is my fault and as you said earlier kind of falling into victim mode. which totally blocks are healing. And I can really block our connection. So the sooner we can but but also, I don’t want people to feel guilty about that. That’s just adding. Because it’s part of the process.

Isabella 20:11
It’s it’s a stage of grief, if you look at the stages of grief, guilt bargaining, which the interchangeable here, exactly, it’s something that we all have to go through. And I think it’s part of the longest stages that we go through some, some people say it’s anger a little bit, but some people don’t touch on anger that much. I think it’s the bargaining and the guilt that can really get us stuck. But it is an important imperative part of the healing process. We can’t we should not avoid it. We can avoid, but we should not avoid it.

Brian Smith 20:38
Well, yeah, cuz anything we try to avoid just comes up later, right you can do is try to take the things that we’re saying and look at it from a different perspective, as you alluded to with Elizabeth Poisson.

Isabella 20:49
Right, but let’s be honest, you’re right, it is it is an excruciating spot that we have. Most people are going to watch this, we know what it feels like. It is the heaviest darkest cloud that is over us for a very long time. It doesn’t feel like it’ll ever shift away. So looking at someone like yourself or myself that we’ve kind of survived as we’ve gone through that it’s still painful. There’s still some moments that it’s difficult. But let’s be the example. This is something that you can get through and still have a really good quality of life. I really, I mean, they were been honest with you. I’ve been honest with everybody. There were moments where I didn’t want to live didn’t think I could live didn’t know how to do this, the guilt that I felt the the sense of failure, the sense of loss, the sense of separation, even with the work that I do, I was not immune to these feelings. And I I’m so glad I’m still here today. I’m just so grateful. I’m there’s been so much joy in my life that I know, that we’ve missed out on and I’m glad that I’m still here. Yeah, but I just have to be honest, it was not that easy to be here.

Brian Smith 21:48
And I can echo the exact same thing. There were times that you know, for a long time and you’re still I still have days when it’s not. I haven’t I had a tough time this morning. Okay, I picture Santa come up a couple of days ago and memory come up to Shana beautiful pitch selfie that she taken and I was just like, I really just wanted her to be here.

Isabella 22:08
Brittany’s you know, it’s the emotion that comes down. And that’s okay, that that is okay to have those experiences. But it’s tough. It’s It’s tough. It’s a journey. It’s not a sprint.

Brian Smith 22:20
Yeah, exactly. So the thing is, I guess the thing that we’re both saying to people is, be where you are, where you’re there and don’t feel guilty about it. Don’t feel bad about it. It’s all part of the journey, but always hold on to the hope. Right? You know, things can get better.

Isabella 22:36
Even if you can’t see it right now, it does change. You’re not in the same place. You were the day you heard the news, you’re just not most of us are not, um, you’re not in the same place. You were two months ago, whether it’s better or worse is the one cost in a life has changed. This will change.

Brian Smith 22:50
Yeah, and sometimes people have trouble recognizing that because it’s a it’s a two steps forward one step back thing. And I really noticed that with people it’s like, it’s I think I’m doing okay. And then something comes along. And I feel like I’m right back where I was at the very beginning.

Isabella 23:06
Yeah, I mean, for for moms, or whoever does a lot of the grocery shopping this first couple years brutal to go into a grocery store, you’re having a good day, then you go to the grocery store, you see something that your child or your loved one would have loved. It’s your mess. And I know a lot of people can relate to that. So it is it is it is a journey, it is a constant journey you’re not doing as long as you survived it, you’ve done it, right. Yeah. But the bigger point in that Brian is to let everybody know that our children, our family, our loved ones in spirit, they are a part of this journey with us. They do not abandon us. They’re aware of how we’re doing. They’re, they’re doing well. But they’re also aware of how we’re doing and can I want to interfere in that. They could, they can help where they can, they can help but for some of it is it’s unavoidable to go through some of the pain because it does cause growth, if we allow it to it does allow us to grow it does allow us to be more compassionate, more open. How many of us have lost a child and then thought, oh, like, I know, know what that feels like for others. And it looked at other parents in a completely different way. I mean, I worked with parents before I lost a child and I don’t think I was as compassionate as I am after my experience. Yeah, so what I got out of it, that’s, that’s okay. It was hard to even imagine that at the beginning, like this could be worth anything. But now I see the gifts and the loss.

Brian Smith 24:29
Yeah. So we’ve kind of touched on this, but I wanted to bring it up even more because this is another question I get a lot of times is why would someone plan to come in for a short period of time? Why would someone plan, you know, people transition as infants, or like my daughter, you know, a lot of times it gets us you know, I look at my daughter, I’m like so much potential, you know, just about to graduate from from ninth grade, you know, just just just graduate from my grade, just about start driving a car, you know, all these things that they had planned. We thought They have planned ahead of them. So why would someone plan to cut that short?

Isabella 25:06
Whatever experiences that she wanted to have here, I can assure you she had and whatever lessons and growth whatever good, fun, amazing life goals that she had those can continue on the other side. I can’t answer what everyone would want to leave when they do, but some people just choose to have it. But I mean, there’s a million different reasons. But but I think we again, also put the inflection on the must be missing out in some way, or they didn’t get to accomplish that when nothing could be farther from the truth there. The the opportunities and Spirit are expansive, always expansive, and I don’t want anyone to think their loved one has missed out on anything at all, because that that just could never happen. Even if you believe in God, if you don’t believe in God, God is love that my word I call God love. We are surrounded in that love and that love could not allow anything negative to get on us and wants us to fulfill all of our dreams and goals and do the best that we can be. That’s our experiences favorite.

Brian Smith 26:03
Yeah, I think that that that belief, and we do have as parents we do have. It comes from the fact that we still see it as their life ended. We don’t see this right, like, continue and that. And again, that comes from that lack of a picture of what the other side is like. And I’ve had, I’ve had readings with mediums that said to me that Shannon says she’s driving. Now whether that’s literal or not, I don’t know. But she’s come through and said, I’m driving.

Isabella 26:29
Yeah, I have some I have a client just last week whose child had epilepsy here. So that was not something that they could ever do. And the first thing they show me tell him, I got the keys tell him I got the keys, and they were driving, I’m like, Well, they’ve got the keys, they’re driving and there were shocked. They couldn’t drive here. So you know, we’re not limited and life doesn’t end with our physical death. It really just begins it really honest to God, it really just begins.

Brian Smith 26:53
And that’s what I again, I want to I really want to reinforce that picture because it helps me like Shana, you saw was saying, I wish I could fly. And again, I’ve had people say, first thing Shayna did was she started flying, you know, the other side. And you know, so when we think as we think about the missing out, I want to help people flip that. It’s like No, they’re not, they’re, we’re the ones that are we are we are

Isabella 27:14
we feel bad for us, because they’re having a great time. They’re they’re living their best life, it’s us that again, it’s the physical loss that we miss. It’s the physical ness of the person, you know, it’s hugs, it’s the smell, it’s all of those things, it’s the cause of this little conversations like this. That’s what we grieve, and grief, let’s be honest, it’s a selfish act as it should be. And we are fortunate enough to live in a place and live in a time where we can have, we can experience grief and loss and really deal with it. If we were having this come, we will first of all, we wouldn’t have this conversation 100 years ago, but let’s say we were able to, we would be so worried about basic needs survival, that that would not be something that we could draw out, we have the gift of grief at this time. So that what a gift that is to explore how that person’s life affected us both positively and negatively, and how their transition affects us as well too. But always remember that we cannot be separate, we could never be separate. Just it’s impossible. And we do go on we really do. I don’t know how else to describe. I have an assistant, she’s, I cannot say enough superlatives about her. But I have her because I don’t want to know anything about you. When I’m reading with anybody. I have a first name sometimes an initial sometimes people just go anonymous. That’s how they look. Or they give a fake name. I want this to be authentic, because I have people I love their, this has to be real. Did they show up and start talking about who they were, who our relationships are? And now what they’re doing there? What a gift. What a gift that they actually show up to do that there? How else could that information come about if it wasn’t for them?

Brian Smith 28:46
Yeah. You know, I love what you said about grief, you know, being selfish. And sometimes people cringe at that word. But it really is because, well, I take that back, there’s kind of there’s two, there’s two sides of grief. There’s grieving for ourself, and there’s grieving for a loved one. And so sometimes people grieve that our loved one is missing out. They don’t want they long either exist, or they’re not being able to so that part of grief.

Isabella 29:11
But that’s a very small part of grief if you actually think about it, when we’re so sad that that part is very limited. The part that really affects us most is how the loss affects us. Oh, I no longer have my child here. I no longer can tuck her in. I no longer can do laundry. I know like, you know, that’s it, but it’s okay. And it’s as it should be with that kind of grief. But it is it’s allowing us to be reflecting that that life back on ourselves. And we have very much the same life review as they have in spirit we really do after we lose somebody we can you tell me that you didn’t think of every event that you did with your daughter after she was transitioned, you know, we really kind of look back and go, Oh, I could have done better here. Oh, I did a great job there. As parents. A lot of us don’t say oh rah rah. We did a great job. we’re much more critical of ourselves, but they’re experiencing the same thing. With much more compassion than we give ourselves, that’s the beauty of being in spirit with that life review. When we do it here, it’s hard, it’s but it’s also good to do to kind of review it and go, okay? I have some areas where I wish I would have done better, but it’s also very important to go. I have some really good memories of this person, I have some Prowse, pat me on the back moments too.

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Brian Smith 31:23
Yeah, and I love that you said that. And I’ve never heard it put that way. And I actually tell I tell people, do yourself a favor, give yourself a life review while you’re here. And I’m actually working with a client who’s doing that we’re actually doing it over a long period of time where we’re literally going through her life and journaling the whole thing. But when you know, we tend to, you’re right, we look back on our lives, but we tend to focus on the things that we think we did wrong, right. And it’s just as important that things that we did, right? You know, and I

Isabella 31:51
come across, especially when you’re in grief, it’s really challenging to think of the good ways that you are a parent when you’re grieving and missing your child. That is I’m not saying this is an easy thing to do. But it’s an important thing. You know, if you’re if you’re able to think of 50 things you did wrong, you should at least be able to come up with five that you did. Right, right. And one day, I promise you that that list you did right is going to far exceed and outweigh the list of regrets that you have. I promise you that.

Brian Smith 32:16
Yeah, I like that. I’ve really liked helping people to do that. Because I’ve done that with people. So I want to put that out here now to people. As you’re going through, you know, the things that you quote did wrong, think about things you did, right. And you know, it’s interesting because with with me, for example, Shana was 15 and a half when she transitioned, but we homeschooled her for the first eight years of school. So I worked from home and my wife worked from home, we spent a lot of time together. And so when I think about her life, instead of me thinking, Oh, I didn’t get to spend that much time with her. I got some more time with her in 15 years, than most parents do in 30 or 40 years. Right, we’re together all day every day long and I choose to focus on that how much great time we had together.

Isabella 32:59
And also maybe even being grateful or finding a space of gratitude that you were chosen to be the parents because these things are just don’t happen randomly. You know, again, that’s an agreement as well to that Shana chose you to be her dad there was a reason for that. What was it that you brought to her life and what did she bring to yours? But the part that we lost over so much is what did what did what did we get to them? That was good, because again, like you said, we focus so much on the woulda, shoulda coulda if only what if it’s so important to remember Oh remember that day we smiled laughed over something so silly you know and and I was there for you. It’s important to make yourself remember those events as well kind of balances out the sadness a little bit.

Brian Smith 33:40
Yeah, I think it does and I choose to focus on that and so when pictures come out and this is I’m six years out so I’m not saying this happens you know at first when people but when memories come up now again I told you the other day that that memory came up and it triggered me and I felt really bad I missed her a lot but usually when I see a memory come up like Shana and I we cleaned squid together we bought squid and she was only one that helped me or we were the first time I took her to White Castle you know for hamburgers like that. I said that was such a great time that was such a great memory. And I was

Isabella 34:10
he was really sorry to interrupt you for me that’s so important because this is something I should mention too. I am hurting what I’m writing about is the way that they tell me that they looped back over memories and they are so specific with the let’s use the squid memory sometimes they just describe the smell the scent of feeling a sensory they tend to go over those memories and over review them look at the enjoy them feel. I mean it is it is so important to share in those memories. The good ones are more so important than anything that you might consider bad because they those as well, too. They can’t they just loop and and sit in that space. It’s so wonderful to know that we can do that.

Brian Smith 34:50
Yeah, so we should do that. And we should we should say hey, look at this great thing that I did. I gave this child this experience. You know I brought this child in. We don’t bring them in but they come through us, right? And and we gave him this experience. And I also want to reiterate what you said about them choosing us, the girls, we had never talked about this before. And when they were sitting at the table, they were like seven and four. And they said, We remember being in heaven and choosing you as our parents. That is not a concept that we gave them. And I’ve never forgotten that. And it makes me feel so proud that they will choose us. So, you know, I hold on to that. And I and I look at Shana, as we’re a team. She’s my partner. Yeah. And so this is, again, this is what I’ve come to from, I’ve had the blessing of being able to talk with people like you, you know, over the last five or six years, and this is the view that I’ve come to that we’re team. She’s here right now. But the reason why she’s in my background, I never want to forget that she’s with me every day.

Isabella 35:48
They’re there, they could never be part, they really could just never be separate from us. And again, I’ll say more so in spirit, because there’s not the ego there. I don’t I don’t have to watch out for myself. But there’s no I don’t have to even with Eretz, there’s no guarding, I’m not gonna yell at me to clean my room or pick that up. It’s just pure unconditional love. That is what it is 100% of the time. So you have a sweeter relationship with them actually, in spirit. I know that’s a poor substitute for them not being here. But it is absolutely true that it is it’s you’re able to grow the bond we just are. It’s it’s take. So it’s a little challenging. It’s not easy the first time for everybody, but it’s absolutely possible. 100%

Brian Smith 36:29
and it’s it’s how you look at it, it’s trusting that the bond is there, because it’s not the same. You know, I was talking with a medium a couple days ago, my wife and I were doing a reading. And my wife said, do I communicate with Shane? Or do I connect with her meditation? And the medium corrected her and said, You connect with her all the time. Right? And so a lot of times what we’re hearing that voice in our head, that imaginary conversation we’re having with our kid

Isabella 36:55
is not imaginary at all. No, no it and also with you mentioning the the pictures, the memories, I think sometimes they’re able to kind of insert those and insert the feeling behind that as well too. I am so impressed with people in spirit, they seem much more powerful than anything you or I could ever do. And they again, they’re just it’s impossible and as a fallacy Li it’s the big lie that we are disconnected with someone once we don’t have them physically anymore. That is impossible. Absolutely. And possibility.

Brian Smith 37:27
Well, the other thing I’ve come to realize is like what Shana For example, I mean, Shana, now if she were here would be 21 so she’d be off at school. And then God only knows that our relationship be like a Shana was a strong willed child. So, you know, we always imagined it would be great the way it always was. But who knows. But the thing is my my other daughter Kayla, she lives 25 minutes away. I don’t, I don’t get to talk to kale every day, I sometimes see her for weeks. I talked to Shayna every day, I mean randomly talk to her every day. So in a sense, we’re closer than we would be if she were

Isabella 38:00
there. I find that true. I absolutely find that true. I know after my husband passed away, I I felt him around even more, I felt a deeper connection with him. But him being in spirit than I did when he was physically here for a long, long, long time. It was and he was on, you know, in your child, your child especially you just always want to have that connection and going and going. But it’s possible for every relationship, it doesn’t matter who the person was for you to continue that bond and connection. And one thing is slightly veering off of that just a second break. Sure. When you find yourself in the grief as all of us will mean whether it’s a child, God forbid or not, it’s important to remind yourself on a couple occasions because it’s something that we don’t get out of our mind for a very long time. How much of the time when that person was here? Did I spend my day thinking about them? That should really be a legitimate question we asked ourselves if it was all day then good then you continue doing that immediately. But if not then I you know it’s not possible in the beginning to do this always but it is possible Okay, if I thought about you an hour a day I’m going to set aside an hour a day to spend with you in spirit then that’s really going to give myself that maybe put a timer on it maybe a limit that a little bit if possible. I don’t know that it’s always possible for us to do that. But even just remembering how much that they filled your thoughts before they were not here.

Brian Smith 39:24
Yeah, yeah. I think that’s a that’s a great practice is a great thing to do.

Isabella 39:29
It’s hard to do at the beginning. So this is not beginner advice. This this is maybe a couple years down the road maybe for some people it is beginner advice but for most of us It does take some practice to get to that point of knowing and trusting and having faith they’re still around is that little voice that little conscious that we hear that connectedness is them decides that they send us away that they know that there were okay. It’s important to remember and then remember that they are still okay as we are healing. Our healing is not dependent on their being okay assume the best they are Oh Okay.

Brian Smith 40:01
Yeah. And that’s, that’s what everybody says is that they are okay. And we should assume that because, again, the grief is so complicated, there’s so much going on. There are few things that we can we can throw out, you know, we should we can, we should I don’t like to use Word should, but few things that that we can say, I’m going to take a different perspective on this. One is I’m not going to feel guilty that I caused him to leave early, you know?

Isabella 40:23
And after practice that that is a practice to do that. But it is and that is absolute truth that he didn’t unequivocally, you had nothing to do with their transition. None. None. Even if you played a part in it, even if you were there, even if you witnessed it. You had nothing to do with it at all. Right? You’re you were just none of us that powerful.

Brian Smith 40:43
Right. And by the way, it’s not it’s not a punishment, either, right. We think of a of a short life as a tragedy, right. So it’s like, I played a role in taking something away from them because they weren’t here very long. Again, you know, just a couple of weeks ago, last week, I was having read the meeting, we’re talking about Shana transition and the way she lived her life was so full out. So I want to experience everything that life wasn’t gonna be her life. And the meeting was saying Shayna is saying she never will you talk about Shayna 18, or 20, or 21. She never planned to be here that long. That was not her plan. So right, all these things that we were worried about in the future, Shayna wasn’t worried about, at least on some level.

Isabella 41:23
Yeah. And I think it although it is a taboo topic, and not all of us have this experience, I think for myself, and it’s not unusual for other parents to kind of have a sense of, Oh, this child we might not have forever. So I don’t you know, I just want to also put that out there that some of us had a sense or a feeling that that particular child, we might not have the same experience with his other children.

Brian Smith 41:44
Yeah, I know some people have that. You know, it’s interesting, Shayna gave us signs and actually flat out said at one time, she didn’t want to know if we didn’t think she was great position at all, at all. But she said, I don’t, I don’t want to grow up. And I don’t want to do more like Shana, you have to be an adult. You have to move out of the house. She’s all these things are great. We’ve seen her as part of the deal when we come in Shane, and we agreed to do these things. And it’s I hear this coming back to me now and soon is going yeah, no, right.

Isabella 42:10
Right, I told you.

Brian Smith 42:13
So but the thing is, let’s not look at it as a tragedy, at least from their perspective. Now, we might feel like we’re missing out and we’re gonna think I’m not going to have grandchildren. You know, I’m not going to get to go to the wedding. You know, those types of things. And that’s fine. That’s normal. That’s normal feelings, but don’t feel like they’re missing out as well.

Isabella 42:32
Right? Absolutely. And they can have those events and occasions and spirit, if that’s something that they choose to do if they feel that that was unfulfilled in their life, or if they have never seen it, but if someone in spirit felt like, Oh, I didn’t get to do this here, I really wanted to do it. It’s certainly an experience they can have in spirit as well, too.

Brian Smith 42:51
Yeah. So what so what is what do you think are few now what’s the reunion like when we were in like, so I’m, who knows how long it’s gonna be before I see Shana. Again, it could be another X number of years, I hope it’s not gonna be too long. But what’s that reunion, what do we have to look forward to?

Isabella 43:08
It is it is, it is the hug, it is just the how it is, every part of your being is just embrace hug, it feels like we never let them go. And there is a deep understanding at that moment. That second, there is no separation. That was all that was the big lie that we are separate from anybody or anything in spirit. It is it is a reunion, like you could not imagine. And it can be some people have for an extended period of time before they start the life review. Some people want to do it very abbreviated, mostly children seem to do it for a prolonged period of time, adults, older adults in particular, they go, let’s not just like freak you out. But everybody, everybody has that same embrace. And we all know where we are. There doesn’t seem to be any confusion of that. Someone asked me yesterday about how many readings I’ve done. Let’s go conservatively. 800,000. Like that’s a big number. But I’ve been doing this a long time. I’ve had three people out of 800,003 in spirit that that had a confusion as a transition. So I mean, I don’t I’m not a math person. But that was that point. 000001. It’s so anomalous, that happened. We all seem to know where we are. We’re embraced. There’s recognition. If you’ve lost a younger child, and perhaps don’t have grandparents that don’t have grandparents over there. There are other souls that we know that child angels, some people want to see Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, things like that. We are not alone in those moments. Never Alone. No one has ever expressed that to me that we are alone in this.

Brian Smith 44:34
Yeah, you just answered a question that I forgot to ask. But I’m glad you did. Because sometimes I hear people say well, they were so young, they don’t have any grandparents and they have nothing there that knows

Isabella 44:44
me. Right? Who’s gonna watch my child? What are they going to be doing? Are they you know, is in purgatory? What is you know, no, it is they know where they are. They were just there. You know that that is that is home to them. That’s their home base. So did I get to see confusion in a child Never anytime. Yeah.

Brian Smith 45:03
I also want to read her what you just said about home? Because that’s been my understanding is we, we think of this as a foreign place because we’ve forgotten. But my understanding is when we, when we go back, everybody says, I have this feeling like, I’m home like, like, I’m back from a vacation. When you come back from a long day at work, and you walk into your house and you just you know

Isabella 45:22
where you are, is it is you can you kind of exhale and go, okay, dun, dun, no, really, it seems that we kind of want to grade or evaluate ourselves, even children in this, they want to look back and go, did I do it? Let’s go young child under five. Did I do these X, Y and Z that I wanted to do? almost universally? The answer is yes, there is a sense of pride satisfaction, and then we just kind of melt into we don’t we say are saying but we kind of just melt into that loving sense of home. Heavenly home. That that’s that was my experience. I’m so grateful for that. But it’s not anomalous. Literally. I’ve had no child in spirit tell me that there. They didn’t know where they were. It was not a lovely, beautiful connection. They were back home.

Brian Smith 46:03
Yeah. Well, that’s, that’s a that’s a good thing to say. Because again, I think some of us are worried I promised my child that they suffer. You know, are they confused?

Isabella 46:11
Especially Yeah, especially parents that have lost their child to prolonged illnesses or addiction or suicide, you know, mental health issues, things like that. There’s a lot of fear that do we carry for them that they don’t carry over there, you know, immediately they put all of that doubt, they talk very succinctly about the struggle, I didn’t want to go struggles, because for a lot of people choosing choosing addiction to have an experience, if you’re there’s lessons in that as well, too. So they’re very objective. They’re very, very objective about the choices that they make. And not a lot of self recrimination, I’d be really hard pressed to think of five children, young people in spirit that have talked about really being disappointed with themselves. That is a really low number brain, like really low. So it just doesn’t seem to happen. We seem to that you show up here takes a really strong constitution that you agree to come into a body here that you agree to show up. So I think we’re all warriors to when we leave here. Yeah, yeah. Showing up.

Brian Smith 47:09
Yeah, this place is not easy, right. It’s not easy for anybody. And I think again, sometimes we we don’t give ourselves enough credit as, as people that are that are here and continue for the way that we do that this is a it’s quite a quite a warrior thing to show. And to stay. And so much agree to go through, you know, we You and I have gone through which, you know, is something

Isabella 47:33
missing in the world. I mean, let’s not beat around the bush, because I’m I don’t I do not want anyone to think this was an easy event to go through. And, you know, oh, no joke. I mean, there were many times I just didn’t didn’t think I could be here and real close to making that happen. So it was it was hard, but it is survivable. And it is something that when you go through it, and you survive a little bit, then you begin to notice that you can thrive and good news, bad news, most of us are going to survive this kind of loss. So it’s how do we deal with it after?

Brian Smith 48:05
And I want to point out to people that you’re saying this is someone who’s seen spirit, always

Isabella 48:09
my life and my entire life, but when it’s your child, when it’s your someone that you love you really question much like everybody else. Is this really real? I need this to be real, because I’m hurting really bad. And if this isn’t real, I don’t know that I can do this. I don’t you know, I think that’s something we’ve all been through this kind of loss. So it’s, it’s it’s tough, but it is. There is a reason behind it.

Brian Smith 48:36
Yeah. And I say that because I want people to know that you’re not weak. If you feel that way, that there’s nothing wrong with you. Because if someone and I look at someone like yourself, or I remember when I listen to Mary Neal’s story, and she talks about finding out her son is going to she’s been told that her son is right to transition early. And then when it happens, she’s still grieves. And I’m, well, if she could mean,

Isabella 49:00
I knew my child was not going to be here for I knew that in every part of my being. And I just I was so proactive, doing everything that I could do. I couldn’t buy another breath, couldn’t do it, couldn’t negotiate couldn’t do anything. And the grief was like a Mack truck hitting me for a very long time. Yeah, and like everybody else thinking, What did she Miss? What did everybody else Miss? And you know, it was hard. But as I’ve aged, and as I’ve, I’ve learned, I’ve found that there’s nothing that they are missing. And there’s really nothing that I’m missing, as well, too.

Brian Smith 49:34
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think I think for me, it’s believing that things are as they’re supposed to be, in spite of how they may seem or in spite of how I may wish that they were different. Because sometimes, frankly, we just don’t know what’s the best thing for us. I think our and we plan to do so coming in the other thing. The other thing I guess I want to address is like so who plans because some people say well, God plan this and God gave me a crappy life.

Isabella 50:00
Um, I think that we choose this, I think that we’re choosing this with the help of our guides, certainly everybody that we come in and have these intimate relationships with, certainly you would have chosen this with your daughter or with your wife with your other children as well, too. We are sometimes advised not to take on so much, but we’re never prohibited from doing that. But, uh, you know, you certainly wouldn’t take on something that you could not handle, accomplishing in any way, just sometimes some of us choose to take a bigger portion than others. And I’m like, what, what in the world were we thinking, you know, remind me to talk to myself over there, because this is a lot. But it is, you know, you make the choice, there’s agreement and with the knowledge and understand that this is transitory, this place, this is not real. This is the dream spot. That’s the real space. That’s where everything is always connected.

Brian Smith 50:51
And that’s the key is about when people say I would have never chosen this, that’s because you’re stuck in the mindset of this is permanent, right? That this is real. If you if you look at it from analogies, I think help a lot. So when you go to the gym, when you’re in the gym, and you’re on that machine, you’re doing bench press, or whatever, and it’s hurting. You don’t say I didn’t choose to do this, you’re like, of course, I chose to do this because I know,

Isabella 51:15
they differed on the exercise stuff. Because that’s not a play like that. That is not a place I’m familiar with. But you’re right. Yeah, but

Brian Smith 51:21
we do we choose things that I think about, like, you know, another analogy, when you take your kids to give them a shot, right? And they get the they get the injection and they’re screaming and crying. Why would they do this to me? Well, I’m doing this to you for your own good. So our higher self chooses things for ourselves. And knowing that we can’t really get hurt, that we really can’t mess this up that we really can’t fail.

Isabella 51:44
But let’s kind of be clear about what that higher self? Is it our higher self as ourselves before we come down into our body. So we are not some like is there another? Isabella out there somewhere? Is there no, Brian, it is it is the part of yourself that is whole. It’s that little drop of God that we all are that knows, okay, my soul would really like to learn this. Maybe I’ve tried to learn in other lifetimes I wasn’t as successful as I wanted to be. Or maybe this is my first time trying this. So we’ll come in and negotiate. There’s a lot of negotiation, your daughter would have had to agree there. Maybe she negotiated with you. This is something she wanted to express. You’re like, Oh, I don’t know. So it’s negotiation. It’s given take, and then we come in, and we should not remember. We should not remember these. Because if we remembered then really how how much would we be learning I would always kind of know. This isn’t exactly real. So we could have some magical thinking going on. I think it’s important that we don’t remember the why

Brian Smith 52:38
oh, well, actually, there’s two things was that one I like we kind of correct me on the higher self. But I’m going to talk about that. Because that sounds such a lofty thing, maybe a better term to be would say our true self. Because we that is as who we really are. This is the this is the avatar, this is the the squeeze down mini version of us that forgets who we really are. And also

Isabella 52:59
that this squeeze down version of yourself has also been affected by everyone else’s squeeze down version. So if I’m the first second I’m born, what happens to me immediately smacked on the butt. And there’s people that I don’t know it’s a sterile room there. It’s it’s a frightening, terrifying experience to be born, then we go to school, maybe the teacher doesn’t love us, maybe there’s conflict with their friends. So we start to lose that sense of our perfect self pretty quickly coming in, and we start to absorb and take on everyone else’s opinion of us. So you have to remember your highest self is what I think we should all try to do and aim to do. But it’s really challenging in a body to remember, we are pure, we are perfect. I am not a reflection of your opinion of me at all. That’s your I am I am here for what I can teach you always. It’s same for you for me.

Brian Smith 53:45
Yeah, that’s awesome. I think that’s so important. You know, it’s funny, because I’ve been my dreams of becoming more and more lucid. And I kind of look at this world as kind of a dream. And so as we’re learning this stuff, we’re becoming more and more lucid. And, you know, I had a dream last night, and sometimes I’ll get in tough situations and dream. I’m just like, wake up, and I wake up. So that happened last night, actually. So we can we can do things to work on. It’s like the movie, the matrix, getting out of the matrix straight through the matrix. And that just opens up a whole new world and it makes this world seem so much more tolerable.

Isabella 54:23
And know that that is your child’s experience as well too. They have reconnected with that perfect sense of themselves. They no longer have an illness an earache or mist and do their homework and get to drive today. They are living their perfect highest existence and and they want that for us or they want us to remember that about them as well.

Brian Smith 54:42
Yeah, we I think I think they absolutely do and what I’m hoping to get out of this conversation with you today for people that are listening is that that reminder that that it’s something we already know, you know, and so if this if this is resonating with you, if you’re listening to this, and you’re thinking that sounds kind of familiar, it’s because you know it somewhere in the back of your mind, and we just need to bring it forward.

Isabella 55:05
You know, it’s, again, it’s not easy to get to this space. It wasn’t like you and I woke up one day and like, Oh, I’m on Zen not that’s not that’s not reality. For most of us, we don’t have that easy experience. It’s hard work to learn these lessons, I don’t want to use the word lessons, because that sounds punitive. It’s hard to have these experiences and come out of them with something that’s positive in the beginning. But it is possible, it is absolutely possible to do that. And again, I just reiterate, whatever way works for you to connect with your child, do that, do that, do that. And please, please, please assume the best assume that they are with us because they’re in this spot of love. And as much as you love them that’s returned and reciprocated. And they want you to feel that. And it’s not something we always feel or feel often even especially in the beginning, but it is attainable, it absolutely is attainable, you’re doing nothing wrong. By the way, if you don’t have that right at this moment, because most of us don’t sit in that always. We just don’t even even when they’re here. I don’t feel that lovey dovey about everybody all the time. It’s just not possible. But it is possible to have those moments of that again. Yeah, that’s

Brian Smith 56:13
a really good point, too, because and I always try to be real, just like you are with people. I don’t live even in the space we are talking about right now all the time. This is why I try to live, right? This is why I do what I do. Because I always want to be reminding myself because I have to otherwise I will fall into what was me, you know, I’ve got this trouble, I’ve got that trouble. This is always going to be this way. All these things are human is part of the human experience, that we came here to have these emotions.

Isabella 56:40
But if you were allowed to allow yourself to go back into that space, and what how would that honor your child and the work that you’re doing? Now? That’s because of her. You know, I don’t know what you did before this, but certainly afterwards the amount of people that you’ve been able to touch and reach into their life and encourage. It’s phenomenal. So that’s an honor to your child as well.

Brian Smith 56:59
Absolutely. Yeah, I guess what I’m saying is, I don’t live in this space every moment of every day. Yeah, it’s it’s it’s even even, you know, this is why I do my mindfulness. I do my meditation everyday why I do all the practices I do, because it’s it’s human. We’re while we’re in the body, as you said earlier, it’s hard to keep this that connection, because our ego is here to keep us alive. Our ego looks out for danger. It looks out for fear, it says look out for that. Watch out for this. And so that’s our ego. It’s not our enemy. It’s there to protect us. Right. But sometimes we get it, we have to rise above that and say, No, everything’s okay. You know?

Isabella 57:34
Well, there’s a bit something that I’ve recently learned, I can’t believe it took me 50 plus years to learn if there’s a big difference between fear and danger. And I had been succumbing to fear a long time in my life. And I realized I can kind of reevaluate and readjust that. Is there an imminent danger coming toward me? Or is this a fear, if it’s a fear, I have to push through, I have to I have to walk through it. I forced myself to go through things that I fear, that gives me anxiety, caution, I’ll make myself do it. Because that’s how we grew up. That’s how I grew up. It’s the fear, you pay attention, the danger, you pay attention to the fear, you just kind of push through.

Brian Smith 58:09
Yeah, I was talking to someone just a couple days ago, and they were doing something they said, I’m not courageous, because I’m afraid. And I’m doing it. I said, No, that means you’re actually courageous. If you didn’t have any fear, that’s not courage. If we do something you’re not afraid of. That’s that, that court, courage is being afraid and doing it anyway. So you’re no fear, fear is there, and we need to push through it. As you’re right, we need to look out for danger. The other thing that I’ve realized, and this was just actually early this week, he came to me I was talking to a client, you know, the difference between worry and planning. So because we need to plan for the future, I said, if you if you could do something about something, then that’s planning, we need to plan for retirement, we need to plan for that. But if you’re sitting there and you’re thinking about something that you can’t control, that’s going to happen in 20 years, that’s worrying and that we can let go of

Isabella 59:00
and you can also loop that back around to the loss as well too. I’m I’m worrying about something that’s already happened that I would had any control over when they were here. I mean it These things are not separate. Because I don’t know about you, but for me after losing a child, my sense of fear and anxiety and worry just went through the roof for a very long time. It emanated through every other part of my life because I wanted to control it. I didn’t want to ever feel that loss. Again. I just thought worst pain ever. Never want to go through and I still to just super honest, I still have a lot of avoidance, especially with my children, you know, I just don’t, I will avoid it and do everything I can to never feel that pain again. But could I control it? I can’t control what anyone else says I can’t control their choices. I can work on my sense of safety and trust in the universe that I am taking care of even if it does not appear to be so right at this moment. Yeah. But it does not appear that I am

Brian Smith 59:57
Yeah, honestly I have a little bit of both on the one hand I learned that I can’t control everything because Shana passed away in her in her bedroom, there was nothing I could do about it so that I learned that lesson. But on the other hand, I do have PTSD. My daughter got a coach earlier today. And she never called him when she can, every time she calls or something wrong. So yeah, you know, the, the phone rings. And this is actually one time she just needed help. She was at Walmart, and she needed you know, she didn’t get my advice or something. But yeah, when the when the phone rings, and it’s kale or something I still like go to a

Isabella 1:00:27
lot of, you know, a lot of us do. And there’s certain time you don’t ever want to get a call after 11 or 12. Like those are never good. But it is, it’s possible to kind of let that go breathe through it and find that center. Again. It’s, it’s something that I have to do frequently. But it is possible to kind of get myself back in this moment.

Brian Smith 1:00:48
And it comes back to believing that ultimately everything is going to be okay. And I could get to that point pretty quickly. You know, now, something happens. And I’m like, this is terrible. And I’m like, Okay, wait a minute, it’s not that bad. Yeah, it’s really not that bad in the scheme of things.

Isabella 1:01:04
Well, once you’ve been through this kind of loss, like I said, Did trying to avoid ever feeling that pain again, but in that’s the part where we can kind of look back and go, Oh, I’m trying to avoid that pain for myself. So again, selfishness is not a bad word. I’m of the mind. It just shouldn’t be a four letter word. It is a way of to protecting ourselves. But is it? Is it doable? Not really, you know, it’s something it’s it’s very rarely successful.

Brian Smith 1:01:29
Yeah, well, their challenges we set their their challenges to being human. I think it’s that way by design. The other thing I’ve come to learn is, Earth is a pain school is pain is designed into this experience, you’re not a burden,

Isabella 1:01:43
it is 100,000% immersion, we learned everything over there, you know, book wise clinical, and then we come down here, and we actually do the work, which is we couldn’t have the same experience of being rubbed in certain way or, or a challenge in this area, that those don’t really exist in spirit. This is the only place where we put everything into action that we’ve learned.

Brian Smith 1:02:03
Yeah, that’s your badge, I just want to bring this up to you is kind of an aside, I’ve seen I’ve talked to so many people that say, this is my last time here. I’m never doing this again, especially again, parents. So how do you feel about what people say that?

Isabella 1:02:16
Well, I knew immediately, when I had my n d. That was within 30 seconds, I was like, I’m gonna come back and do this again. I know, I’m going to do it again. And we have something so trivial that I had done to someone else when I was six years old, but I was like, No, no, I really, I could see how I made that person feel. And I want to correct that. I want to I know I mean, I when I was in the beginning of this the first five, seven years, I thought there’s no way I would ever come back now. I’m hopeful to come back.

Brian Smith 1:02:43
Yeah, it’s kind of funny, because same I was just saying I’m never doing this again. Never do right. Yeah. When I hear people say that I just kind of snicker. I’m like yeah,

Isabella 1:02:50
right. Okay. You might change your mind. You might not but you know, most of us I think would want to come back and do what if you were given the opportunity to have this long experience with your child or the person that you love? You know, what if it look delightful? life very rarely is painful. We’ve come in here to have these experience does not have to be painful. Always. It just doesn’t. There’s so much more beauty outside of the pain, but the pain has to show up.

Brian Smith 1:03:19
Yeah, that’s part of it is about I really appreciate you hanging out with me, Brian, we didn’t talk but I do want to touch on you are you’re working on a book or maybe even more than one book. So a lot of people know that.

Isabella 1:03:33
One is about what do they do over there all day. So yeah, really the I there’s I think I’ve got five people in spirit. And I have really strong connections with mostly young people that really just fill me in with all the details on what is it like to be in spirit, the prolonged sense of it over there. So a lot of details of that.

Brian Smith 1:03:51
Awesome. Well, when that comes out, you have to come back and let me know.

Isabella 1:03:54
I will let you know. I will do that, Brian. Thank you.

Brian Smith 1:03:56
All right, what’s great talking to you have a great rest of your day.

Isabella 1:03:59
Thank you too.

Brian Smith 1:04:00
Bye. That’s it for another episode of grief to growth. I sure hope you got something out of it. Please stay in contact with me by reaching out at www dot grief to growth calm. That’s grief the number two growth calm or you can text the word growth to 31996. That’s simply text growth gr o wt h 231996. So if you’re watching this on YouTube, please make sure you’re subscribed. So hit the subscribe button and then hit the little bell here and it’ll notify you when I have new content. Always please share the information if you enjoy it. That helps me to get more views and to get the message out to more people. Thanks a lot and have a wonderful day.

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