Grief 2 Growth Podcast- Rosemary Ringer- Her NDE and Reboot- Ep. 92

I met Rosemary when I hosted a panel discussion at the IANDS conference in the summer of 2020. Rosemary was a panelist discussing grief and how we can grow from it.

Rosemary’s husband took his life and left a note blaming Rosemary. Many of us feel guilt over the passing of a spouse or a child. Fortunately, not many of have the added burden of being told it’s our fault.

Two years later, Rosemary was diagnosed with cancer. As a result of one of her procedures, Rosemary died.

Rosemary got a reboot on the other side. Hear her story in this spellbinding interview. Rosemary is a prolific author and does an incredible job of telling this uplifting and healing story.




Brian Smith 0:00
Close your eyes and imagine what are the things in life that causes the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we’ve been buried. But what if, like a seed we’ve been planted and having been planted, who grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is brief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. Hey, everybody, this is Brian back with another episode of roof to growth I’ve got with me today, Rose ringer. And Rose has a very interesting tale to tell us I can’t wait to have a conversation with her. I’m going to introduce rose roses husband committed suicide at their home. And when that happened, she fell into a pit so deep and dark that medical professionals expressed doubts she’d ever recover. And then two years after her husband took his life, Rose was diagnosed with stage two cancer and doing a related minor medical procedure in quotes because we know how those go. she bled to death and had no heartbeat for more than 10 minutes. And having her predominant emotion was profound gratitude that this life experience has ended. But the angelic being she encountered encouraged rose to return to Earth. And she was told us she agreed to go back to be restored to perfect health physically, emotionally and mentally. And then after that several medical tests confirmed all the angels’ promises were accurate. Soon after she was discharged from hospital rose implemented a detailed plan to sell all her possessions or homeowner car closer business, donate a lifetime of research materials move 1000 miles west to start a new life. And rose now lives with a little dog Teddy in the Midwest, where they like to spend their time quietly admiring the breathtaking beauty of the wide open spaces. So I want to welcome you rose to grief to growth. It says great to have you here.

Rosemary Ringer 2:03
Thank you so much.

Brian Smith 2:05
Yeah, we met, I guess was just a few weeks ago, we were on a panel of ions talking about grief, and loss and recovery from that. So you have recovered from quite you know, a couple of things that that are just totally devastating would or would be to most people. So if you would just tell your story and however you’d like to and start where we’d like to start.

Rosemary Ringer 2:27
Okay. Well, I guess the starting point would be April 2016. My husband who was the I thought the answer to a lifetime of prayers. Somebody I loved very deeply and never took it never took for granted a day of our lives together, came home for lunch one day in April 2016 sat down in a chair and put a gun in his mouth and ended his life. And I have always been a writer, I’ve been writing for 30 years, everything from newspaper reporting to books, I’ve written nine books, I’m extremely sensitive. And as you probably know life for a sensitive souls kind of hard on this earth, not an easy place to be. And the last four words, my husband articulated in this on this earth where this is your fault. It sent me that as a text. So that was I can’t even say it was a twist to the knife. It was devastating. Beyond devastating, so I lost my mind. You know, back in the day, we called it a nervous breakdown. I don’t know what we’d call it today. And one of the things I discovered is obtaining psychiatric help or mental health care even I should say, it’s very difficult. As soon as my children immediately were on the phone trying to find some help for me, because I was I was probably on the cusp of a psychotic break, the pain was just more than I could bear. And the soonest we could find an appointment I think was five weeks away, which for somebody who was then living in five minute increments, and I that’s what I did, I would say to myself, just get through five minutes, get through the next five, five weeks felt like 1000 years away. And ultimately, a friend who is a mental health care worker pulled some strings and got me into see a mental health care worker within hours. But that shouldn’t be the way it is. But again, I don’t want to digress. So after suicide I was in pretty bad shape. I became addicted to alcohol and prescription drugs. It turns out when your husband does this, they will give you all the benzodiazepines that you can that you can use. I would get prescriptions of 90 count out of an or Valium or both as often as I wanted them. So there was a day that I was probably doing, I don’t know eight to 10 A DAY PLUS drinking which is not wise and benzodiazepines and alcohol are very bad combination. And I just continued a downward spiral after the funeral. I never spent the night in that house again. And you know different friends in the The herd tried to take me in, but I was almost like a wounded animal. I could not find comfort anywhere. I cannot even I couldn’t get comfortable. So for a short time I actually lived out of my car. My husband was a litigator. So you know, this is, this is quite a thing for us to go from being this couple. That here I have written several books and had some success in the writing world, married to this prominent attorney, and now I’m living out of my Camry. And a friend again, a very sweet friend on the periphery of my life stepped in and said, you’re getting too comfortable in that car. You’re coming home with me. And I said, No, I’m not I you don’t know. I scream in the middle of the night. I can’t sleep I paced I sleepwalk. I’m a mess. She said, let’s try it for one night. And that was brilliant. Because one night I thought all right, she’s been a sweet friend. I can. I can do this for one night. And I stayed with her for four months. And then I rented a small home in a nearby city and lived I actually had a friend live with me there because I was still not able to care for myself. And I lost a tremendous amount of weight, which is so typical. You know, I just I was living on those liquid nutrition drinks. I couldn’t swallow. I couldn’t do solid food. So. So that’s how my life went. And then after a couple years, I asked my friend to I told him I was ready to live on my own. And that was 29 months later, I was out in the yard doing some work and pulling a bag of gravel across the yard actually picked it up to hoist it and I felt something happened internally and and I’d had some symptoms I’d been having a low grade fever. I’ve been spotting. You know, a lot of I knew something wasn’t quite right. Anyway, they diagnosed diagnosed me with cervical cancer. And they sent me on to an oncologist and the ecologist at his preliminary exam. He said.

He said, it’s a stage two, he said, I can already see it spread to nearby flesh. And he said, it’s advanced to a point where your flesh is distorted. And I was I was I just got plunged right back into the worst grief. I thought, wow, what now What next? And then it was during a surgical biopsy, which he performed to determine exactly how far this spread. And after I woke up from that they in the hospital, they they asked me get up and go to the bathroom, get myself together. And I did and I came out of that bathroom. So I’m bleeding profusely. And I’m 59 years old at this point, and the RN was very dismissive. So once you get home wipe down, you’ll be fine. So three times total. I told her this is not this cannot be normal. I’m losing a tremendous amount of blood, but they sent me home anyway. And within an hour at home, I contacted I had my friend who’d come home with me, call 911 I realized I was bleeding to death. And they transported me to a nearby er in Virginia, they have these little standalone ers that are not affiliated or connected with the hospital. And that’s where I was taken and they were out of their element. And they stuffed me with Gods like I could Christmas goose. Thinking all that did was stop them. As it turns out, it didn’t stop the bleeding. So I continued to bleed. Nobody knew it. So they were satisfied. Oh yeah, I don’t see any blood will leave her and my buddy. His name is Milton. He, um, he sat by my side at that Gurney faithfully. And he said he looked up and I passed out pretty quick. They had given me some dilaudid for pain. Turns out is kind of contra indicated for somebody with punching blood pressure. I think that just kind of grease the skids. You know, I don’t like my death. He said at one point, he looked up at the medical staff and walked out of the ER he said at one point he looked up at the blood pressure cuff, which was one of those blue machines on a stick and my blood pressure was 32 over 25 Oh, wow.

It’s not a lot. Yeah,

Brian Smith 8:55
I’m assuming you weren’t conscious at this point. I was not conscious. Yeah.

Rosemary Ringer 8:59
And he said at that point, he was getting ready to get up and go get a doctor. And at that point, my eyes popped open and I reached up to him and said, I tried to sit up on the gurney, which is pretty impressive for somebody with a blood pressure that’s over 25 Yeah, but I set up a tripod set up on the journey lifted my head and shoulders and stretched out my arms and reach to heaven. When he said you talk to somebody only you could see. You said you wiggle your fingers almost like a child reaching up for their father. Hmm. And he said after that I flopped back on the gurney, blood pressure went to error, which meant it was probably lower than 30 to over 25. And meanwhile, I was having a great time. I was unconscious at the moment of my death but I woke up when my heart stopped when boy did I wake up I woke up. It’s so I know this sounds out there. I do believe our near death experiences are customized for us. But in mine, it was as though there was a silver sinewy chord from the crown of my head to the bottom of my feet to my heel. And like an archers bow, like somebody had pulled way back on it and popped and released. And I went, I was catapulted out of that body like post out of a toaster. It was, I woke up, I feel this catapult and I was literally just sailing through the air floating further and further away from my body. It was great. And my first thought was, my heart is stopped. And I thought, How do I know that? I don’t know. I know that. But I know. That’s right. And, and then next thing I was just floating further and further away in this blackness. And my next emotion was gratitude. Because I realized I still had my intellectual curiosity, my intellectual intensity. I thought, I remembered, wow, this had all happened. And I thought, wow, I bet nobody was expecting this. When they, you know, stuffed me and then walked out of the room, are they gonna be surprised? And I remember, gratitude relief, I had struggled with suicidal temptations, dramatically. In fact, looking back at my journal, gosh, not 10 days before this happened. I had written in my gratitude journal. I did not kill myself today. That’s a win. Yeah, God, please remove these devilish temptations from my soul. So I had been fighting the urge to end my life, even up two days before this happened. And frankly, I was really probably relying on human will more than anything spiritual, and I was running out of road. I really was. So my feeling was I I did it, I pulled it off. No one’s gonna blame me. There’s not going to be the guilt, the horror. The rest of it. I’m done. And I foil boy, boy, I was just so relieved. I truthfully, and honestly felt as though I had been granted early release for good behavior. I was just so free to be out of that misery. And I remembered this oncologist had me scheduled to start chemotherapy and daily radiation, I think the next week, and I thought, we’re done.

We’re not gonna have to worry about that one. Yeah. But the fact that my memory was still so strong. In fact, I’m, I’m in ham radio, which you have to earn extra, which means you got to take a lot of tests and know a little bit about electronics. But it really felt like somebody who just put 100,000 amps through a 60 amp service, I felt so alive. I had the clearest, greatest mental acuity I have ever experienced. That was just so cool. You know, I think, I think the smart people say we use 67% of our brain. So like I was using 200% of it. I mean, and I didn’t have a brain, my brain is back on that Gurney. So and then the other thing floating in this blackness, the piece was so incredible. I know a lot of people talk about the love, but the thing I felt was peace and comfort. And this this enveloping blackness was, it was just comforting. It was like, everything about it brought me immense and great comfort. And I as a writer, I’ve always struggled with anxiety ever more. So since my husband’s messy ending, and to have that just gone. It wasn’t better. It was gone. And and so that I always I remember thinking, I’ve always wondered what I would look like if I had no anxiety, no fears, no worries. No, it was Yeah, great. Yeah. And as I’m thinking about this, I thought, I thought about a Bible verse, the peace that passeth all understanding. And I thought, This is what Paul was talking about. This is peace that nobody will understand until they experience it. And I thought that was so cool that I every memory I had was still with me. In fact, a memory from my infancy came back, which was so neat. But I remembered in again, so floating in this perfect, beautiful, comforting and comfortable blackness. I remember I’ve been here before, like 59 years ago, I’ve been here before and the angels spiritual being talked to me and said, Yes, your mother when she told you that you almost died as an infant. In fact, she was in 1959. She was chased out of the hospital not chased but asked to leave the hospital because they said as a newborn infant at the time the doctors told her her kidneys have now failed. The rest of her organs will soon follow. She’ll be gone in two to four hours. And they you know different world. They told my mother go home and focus on your other children. This one’s gone. So the angels told me they said yeah, you kind of crossed over then explains a lot about why you’ve always been a little different. From the rest of the world, I was like, wow, I wish I had known that 59 years ago, or at least the last 50. But, and then, at some point in this floating, I was joined by a massive spiritual being, and I mean, massive. And he she was above me and slightly to my left. And I turned my head, I felt this presence very succinctly. And I turned my head to the left and looked up, which I thought, I don’t know if I have a left shoulder, but I’m looking over something. And, but I could not see. And I said, literally, with a lot of joy in my voice, I said, Who are you? Because I’m like, I’m not alone. This is great. And the answer was you, rosemary, you are the image and likeness. I’m the original. And I thought, whoa, I think there’s Genesis 127 that were made the image and likeness of God. And that’s so cool. And then I also thought I would have been good to know back then, too, but you know, still really, really cool. And more than words that came with an infusion of knowledge I had, I’d been familiar that Bible verse most of my life, and now I’m like, I got it.

And then, at one point, I guess this was fairly early on, I had this thought, again, I’ve been a writer, and editor for 30 years, I had a thought, you’re dying, then I thought, actually, you’re not dying, you’re dead. And it cracked me up. And I laughed out loud. And I heard myself giggle. I heard myself giggle. And I sound just like I sound all the time. And I thought, well, I, I don’t have breath sounds, I’m pretty sure I don’t have lungs don’t have vocal cords. And yet I sound exactly the same. And that’s when I really boy was that a big deal to realize every single thing that defines us goes with us every single thing that makes us uniquely individual, from our memories to the sound of our voice to our bizarre sense of humor. I mean, and then I thought, it’s not about here, I’m going to my reward, and I’m correcting my tense. You know, I still think the angels care if I’m using in proper English. And that’s when I really pondered what exactly did I leave behind on that Gurney. And I realized only the negative, only darkness only the sadness on the degree. And you know, throughout this experience, and I guess, I wish I could share this with the world in the medical field. I kept hearing somebody literally scream, my name, rosemary, rosemary, and it was panicked, urgent and loud, right. And the thing is, you know, if you’re in a crowd, and somebody screams your name, you can’t help but whip your head around and see what’s happening. I had absolutely no desire to do that. It was like an annoying sound produced by an alarm clock that you wish would just stop. And in retrospect, it took me about a year to really sort that out. I think that in this experience, I had left those old personas behind mother, author, friend, and I wasn’t rosemary, I was a child of God going home. And so I guess if you know, I know the medical staff says they I know they do that they call your name. And it turned out that’s what it was. It was a nurse. Yes. Meaning My name tried to bring me back.

Brian Smith 18:17
But I did that when I found my daughter. So I know what that’s like. Yeah.

Rosemary Ringer 18:22
I it had no effect. And I don’t know what we can say to people. I mean, I don’t know what you can say. But I was so disconnected from that. And you know, an interesting aside as a writer, persona, is from the Latin word meaning mask. So we leave that as what we leave behind.

Brian Smith 18:40
Yeah, the mask, the role that we play when we’re here. Yeah,

Rosemary Ringer 18:43
right. We really do. So this one on and I, you know, if you if you told me, I’ve been dead for two days, two months, I would have easily believed it. And it’s hard to imagine in our very linear construct of time that we love, we just love it on Earth. Yeah, there is no time there is and I’m not even sure it’s linear. While I’m describing this and what I believe to be a chronological fashion. Who knows? You know, I don’t I don’t know. I know what it. I know how I remember it. So at some point, it’s floating in this blackness, mainly thinking about the peace and the joy. In fact, after I came back from this, one of the first things I did was sit down and make a detailed record of every single thing I remembered, experienced, felt and said, and as I’m floating in this blackness, I was just so full of joy like a child. And I, when I went back and reread my notes, I saw what I had said, and I remember this. I said, Wow, I like floating floating is fun. This is great. Well, as a writer, you think I could do something a little more prosaic, a little more loquacious. But yeah, that’s what I wrote. And that’s one of the reasons I know I had no one wanted to come back. No, no, no, I did not. I did not. I did not. I did not I, I just, it was so familiar being here and I knew I was going home. I you know, like the old song. Go, going, Oh, I knew I was no, no, no, no. I was like, wow, I put in my time. And honestly, another thought I had was, I finished the work. I was supposed to do. Yeah, no, I’m done. Yeah. And. And then it is like somebody took my batteries out. I don’t know what happened. Because one moment I’m floating in this blackness with these angels and spiritual beings with me. And the next thing I’m standing in a white room, and I’m on my feet, I no longer floating and, and I don’t know that I have feet. But I recognize that I’m in this beautiful, brilliantly lit White Room, the walls, ceiling floor is all white. It is. There are no light fixtures, it is the walls and the ceiling and the floor that are producing this luminescent, iridescent, perfect white, brilliant white, so brilliant, it’s almost blue, almost has a bluish tinge, but it was so beautiful. And I remember thinking, I don’t know if I have legs or feet, but I think I can move with intention. And I at the far end of this room, which wasn’t that far away, I saw a door and I know what the door is about I had spent my life 40 years I’ve been reading about every near death experience I could find really recognize now that was part of that experience as a child. But I was fascinated by near death experiences. And so I knew that door meant it was a border of boundary that that was the official crossing over. And I was like out of my way. I know where we’re going, I know what we’re doing. I can’t wait. And in that white room, there was a very fine, but thick mist falling. And it was it was like a very heavy fog. And yet it wasn’t deep. It wasn’t cold. It wasn’t warm, it just felt great. And I remember trying to focus on an individual droplet of this fog, which I know sounds bizarre, but I felt like I had to be able to see that I know that I should be able to see that. And this angel with me accompany me said Your eyes have not acclimated to this new experience yet. But each of those droplets are light. And they’re itty bitty bits of light. And when I walked through it, it’s swirled around me danced around me, it was so so beautiful. And what I was told is, when we go to heaven, some people have had a disease process for so long. They believe it’s part of their identity. And what happens in this fight room. And this was the word I was given is all of the muck of Earth is washed away. Oh, wow. And it’s washed away by this beautiful light, these little itty bitty droplets. And as a friend, I shared this with a friend of mine. She said yep, leave your muddy boots at the door. So that light was unbelievably beautiful. And it swirled. I mean, it just it was like sounds trite, but it sounds like it was all full of joy and happiness. And it was all around me. And it was all great. So I’m moving toward the door advancing again. I wish I guess I guess I kind of wish I’d looked at my feet. I don’t know.

Brian Smith 23:31
But I’ve heard other people say that it is I don’t know, if I had feet I didn’t bother to look down to see.

Rosemary Ringer 23:36
It was kind of you know, not a big deal. Yeah. And I move toward that door. And as I got close to the door, it was shut. And I put my right hand up to push through because I knew where it went and I was ready. And I paused at the door. And I asked very simply Is this the divine will for my life? That simple medical mistake takes me out. And I couldn’t even get past is this divine before the angel answered spiritual beings with me and said, No, but whatever you decide, if you decide to go back or you decide to go on, you go with all God’s grace and mercy and blessings and care. And that was great. I’ll take that deal. Don’t need to ask me again. I’ll I’ll go. And one of the things I guess I should have mentioned the beginning, after my husband’s death, there were three prayers I prayed every night, sometimes multiple times a day. But the first was God either let me die or heal me. I can’t do this. I had learned how to pretend. So why would go out in public and people would say How are you doing? And I thought be a Hollywood actress. And I would smile and so I’m doing great. You know, it all worked out. I’m doing fine. And meanwhile when I got home I would think about okay i would review a plan I had funding my life, I had a very detailed plan. And that brought me comfort. So my date, my daily prayer was either heal me or let me go. And the other prayer was no life review. And people tend to giggle at that. But that’s serious. My I had a recurring dream, a nightmare that plagued me for years, two years. I wasn’t home when my husband ended his life. But in this nightmare, I was just getting home. And he grabbed the gun. And I come around the corner as he’s putting it in his mouth, and I run to tackle him, but I’m always too late to trigger. So I had that nightmare, too many times to count. And other times, I had nightmares about what he looked like afterwards. I mean, it was, it was very intense. So my other dream, my other prayer was no life review. I’ve been through this once I had lost my mind, I really had lost my mind behave very badly, in a lot of ways. And in three, my prayer was, I can’t handle any more decisions after his death, and a lot of legal messes it up. And I mean, messes that cost thousands of dollars in legal fees. And you know, the lawyers who say, well, you need to do this, or you need to do that. But we need to know and I just cry, couldn’t take it couldn’t handle it. So this thing of when I was told at the door, that whatever you decide, and I was told there are no wrong decisions. And that brought me so much comfort and so much peace. So my God, I’m on it. I’ll do it. Yeah, I put my right hand up to push through the store pretty interested by the fact that I’m right handed. In heaven. I mean, I’m right handed on Earth, right handed in heaven. Oh, how cool is that? Even that little detail? My identity has gone on with me. And then I had shortly before I lost consciousness at that little standalone er in Suffolk, Virginia. This very kind hearted nurse about my age, very motherly, very sweet, very kind eyes. She had been by my side as I was laid out on that Gurney, and she,

I grabbed her hand, I said, promise me, you’re not gonna let me die. And interesting side effect of bleeding to death, everything’s bleeding to death is you know, easy. It’s messy. And it’s terrifying how much blood the human body can hold. And it’s terrifying to see that flow out of yourself and know that people aren’t taking you seriously when you say I think I’m bleeding to death. So I grabbed this nurses and oh, and you become anxious. That’s a common side effect is because your brain isn’t working quite like it should. It’s not quite enough oxygen, so you can’t reason things out. grabbed the nurses hand in the ER again, shortly before they gave me that shot shortly before I passed out. And I said Promise me You’re not gonna let me die. And she’s very sweetly she’s Oh, honey, we’re not gonna let you die. We have many solutions for this. Okay, that sounds good. Yeah. So at the door, ready to go on, put my right hand up ready to take that deal that God has offered that whatever I decide, you know, I go well, God’s grace and mercy and blessings and care. I have a vision of that nurse. And it’s a very intense vision. And she is sitting in a hospital supply room on a little metal stool surrounded by linens and other medical supplies. And she’s leaning forward on that little stool with her head in her hands sobbing uncontrollably. And she says through tears, I promised that woman I wasn’t going to let her die. And I lost her. Like, Oh, no, don’t do this to me. As an empathic person, oh my gosh. And then I thought, well, I know she’s an RN. She’s been through this before she’ll get through this.

Brian Smith 28:52
Yeah. So get over it, you’ll get

Rosemary Ringer 28:54
over it. And I need to go more than she needs me here. And then I got ramped up and then I felt her pain. I felt her agony and I felt her grief and I recognized it as the same pain I had known for 29 months after my husband suicide and I thought if my coming back will spare a soul that much pain I guess I better do that. And I put my right hand down at my side like ah crap, but what I actually what I said is kind of funny now. I said this is going to ruin ruin that woman’s day if I die. And then in a millisecond of a millisecond I was back in that body. There was no whoosh there was no return. You know, no tunnel. No nothing. I was back in that body and what seems like a millisecond.

Announcer 29:48
We’ll get back to grief to growth in just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian is an author and a life coach. If you’re grieving or know someone who is grieving his book, grief to growth is a best selling ease To read book that might help you or someone you know, people work with Brian as a life coach to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers at WWW dot grief to www dot g ri e f, the number to or text growth gr o w th 231996. If you’d like to support this podcast, visit slash grief to growth slash g ri e f, the number two gr o w th to make a financial contribution. And now back to grief to growth.

Rosemary Ringer 30:49
But lots of activity going on all around me. They they had brought in my buddy Milton said they brought in everybody even the reception to work on me. So yeah, there was a lot of activity they slowly Gurney and took me out of there. Wow. took me to a real hospital.

Brian Smith 31:07
So you apparently at the moment when you made the decision that you are going to come back for this nurses benefit. You just you’re just back. Wow.

Rosemary Ringer 31:17
And miffed. People say Oh, I thought when you woke up, you know, when you were back and your body was so grateful. It’s just like, No, I was ticked. I remember looking up at the corner of the room. And I thought I felt like I could see one of my angels there. And I said, What are we gonna talk about this? Robert’s Rules of Order. We you know, we had a first we didn’t have a second, we didn’t have a discussion. Why do you have an energy it takes to die? It took me hours. Yeah. And then, you know, people say after they come back from the dead of the day feel like they’re half in this world and half an hour. And I felt like I was 95% in that world. And 5%. And this one, in fact, the first 24 hours, I knew I was very close to dying again. I felt it I felt very weird. And I’m not sure part of that being stuffed back into the flesh after you’ve been in a body. Or if it’s the fact that I mean I bled to death. The next morning, the doctor affirmed, which was very helpful. He then the next morning, the doctor comes in to see me at the hospital. And he said, You’re you’ve had a heart attack. And I said, Well, you’ve got the wrong person, I’m healthy I bike I walk, etc. And he said, No, no, you got you had a pretty serious heart attack. And I said, what are we talking about? He said, Well, you lost more than 40% of your blood volume. And then your heart went into V fib and stopped. So when I heard that those first words that said, My heart is stopped, it was right. So he said, I said, how would you say I lost more than 40%? I need a number. You know, I guess I’m kind of analytical, give me a number. So after 40%, it doesn’t matter, you died. So it was it was pretty dramatic. And then after that the next 24 hours, I did feel like I was close to death still. And I asked the angels, because I did feel them all around me. I wish I could live in that moment of feeling their presence. And I asked the angels, are we doing this again? What’s the plan? It’s okay. Either way, just want the plan one or the plan at the angel said no. We’re they said we’re healing and fixing things that there’s some more to do with this body. And in 24 hours, I felt that feeling of things being so off had gone and I started to feel better. And it took some time. Because you don’t have to tell the doctors, I had to find a new oncologist. By the way. The old one. insisted I start chemotherapy, as soon as I was healed from this the chemo and the radiation. And I said I’m pretty sure I was healed in heaven. And he said, Nope, nope, nope, nope, we’re not. And I said, Well, what happens if you do another biopsy said no, no. I said, Well, what if you take another look? Nope, nope, nope, nope. So I had to find another oncologist. And you know, I was still very excited about all this heaven business. And I said, I died and went to heaven. I talked to the agents, I get sent back, but it was great, great, great, great. And she said, You bled to death from a cervical biopsy. She was a lot more interested in that than my Yeah,

Brian Smith 34:16

Rosemary Ringer 34:18
And ultimately, there was another surgery and a lot of flesh was taken from a lot of places. And it was affirmed that not one self cancer was found. And they biopsied me a lot of different ways. In fact, while I was unconscious, I was on I was on the surgery, operating table for more than three hours. While I was unconscious, they did the multiple biopsies and even brought in people to do biopsies in addition to the doctor so they could look at several slides from several places. Right before the surgery. She said rosemary, if I find any cancer anywhere, we’re going to take your lymph nodes because we have to see how far this is spread. Yeah, and The beauty part again, my poor buddy Milton, he was waiting out in the waiting room for the surgery, which happened about eight weeks after my near death experience, they were very concerned about me being healed. He said the surgeon came through the doors and found him in the waiting room to give him an update on how the surgery went through her arms around his neck and said, She’s right. There’s nothing there. And she said, not only is there nothing there, but her flesh is so pink and pretty and perfect. I don’t think she ever had cancer. Oh, wow. Wow. pretty dramatic.

Brian Smith 35:40
Yeah. So at some point, were you told that you’re going to be healed if you came back?

Rosemary Ringer 35:44
Yes. I’m sorry. I guess I should have put that in. Yes, it read the discussion in the white room. I was told if I agreed to come back, I’d be restored in the fullness. And and you know, people love the story of being healed of cancer. And I don’t want to diminish that in any way. The but the healing of my soul. You know, Psalms 23 said he restores my soul, the healing of the grief and the desire to die and the suit. Well, the suicidal ideations? Sure, that was gone. And I mean, I just, I cried a lot, the first few days, because everything was so beautiful. When I was alone in the hospital room, I had two buddies that were kind of actually three buddies, we’re kind of tag teaming each other. So I wasn’t alone in the hospital. And even coming back from this. I was, I was still a little disoriented. An interesting fact, when somebody bleeds to death, you can’t even do CPR on them, because it just pushes pushes more blood out. So I had no heartbeat, no blood pressure, and no oxygen getting to my brain for more than 10 minutes. Wow. So the fact that I came back intact, and without significant damage to any organs is pretty dramatic.

Brian Smith 37:03
Yeah, yeah. That’s our call itself. Yeah,

Rosemary Ringer 37:07
it is. And, but when my buddies would have to step out of the hospital room, and you know, sometimes I knew I’d be okay. The angels would come by my hospital bed and sing to me. And they sang me the most beautiful songs, and even had music went with it. And the songs were so beautiful, and I would cry. And I would say, don’t stop, I but But please, you know, overlook the tears. And I said, I, I want to remember this, I want to write this down. I want to save every word in every note. And I told the angels, I’m not good with melody, I’m not good with lyrics, I don’t know that I’m going to be able to remember this, the angel said, This isn’t for you to remember this is for your healing, and your joy and your peace. And honestly, it almost felt like it was a thank you for agreeing to come back. And they knew how hard that was to leave that perfect space. And yet, you know, one of the things that I realized not, I guess a few weeks ago, when I asked Is this the divine will for my life, as I paused at that door in the white room. It’s because when you’re there, all you want to do is glorify God. All you want to do is do what God wants you to do that will bring the most blessing to the most people. And I think that’s why I asked that question, because I knew that this didn’t really seem like the right thing to die at this point. And yet, I wanted to go so bad. But yes, they did promise the by they said if you if you go back, you will go back healed. And you know, the cancer thing. I mean, that’s not insignificant. I honestly at the age of 59 I’ve been debating if I’d even do chemo, you know, that was pretty big decision. But to have my heart and soul healed, was massive. It was almost like it was so fast and so draconian. It was almost like a loving father shaking a child awake. It’s in the middle of a terrible nightmare. Wow. saying you were yelling. You’re screaming, but it’s just a dream. Wow. And the healing was that dramatic and it feels like a dream. Now it’s not like oh, my husband’s it. It’s crept back in a little bit. I still get sad when I hear about somebody else’s killed themselves or they lost. I’m sorry, they lose a husband or wife or child. I cry. But it’s not the grief that drags me out to see. Right? It’s not. It’s very different. But yes, it does feel like a father that shook me up shook me awake from a bad dream. It just feels it feels like another person had that experience. And you know, the Bible says we’re A new creation in Christ. I feel all different. I can all in fact, you know, my friend Milton who witnessed all this, he said, You need to tell him the other part of it, which is, you know, being a baby boomer loved rock and roll used to be in radio at the beginning, you know, million years ago, I did radio stuff and broadcasting. I had some high frequency hearing loss, and I had a busted shoulder and a busted knee. When it came back. All that was gone really well. My hearing was restored. My busted knee didn’t bother me much that I’d had shoulder pain for, gosh, 1314 years it was gone. And I even had arthritis in my wrist. And when I came back, that was gone as well. So my buddy says, You got rebooted by the Creator?

Brian Smith 40:45
Yeah, yeah. Wow. I love the way you put that, you know, being shaken out of a dream. I think that’s a really good analogy for for our life here. I hear that over and over again, that when you cross back, it’s like, that’s more real. And this feels like a dream. And I think we imagined it the other way around. We think about it, like that’s gonna be kind of dreamlike, and, you know, not really real. So it’s always great to hear someone talk about the the solidness of it, the reality of it, and the intensity, I guess of it.

Rosemary Ringer 41:13
I had the greatest as I said, I had the greatest mental clarity I have ever known. I just felt like, I felt like everything had been awakened again, I guess there’s, there’s that phrase again, but this I mean, his his death was. I’m an architectural historian by trade. And that house we lived in was my dream home. It was a beautiful house in a beautiful place. And so the losses, the ancillary losses, I mean, I lost all our friends. There’s a big difference between being friends with the big deal litigator and the author and being friends with this wash rag of a pathetic individual who can’t eat food anymore. So yeah, everything everything that was my former life got burned down. There was nothing left of life. But what I came back, I I realized my life had been pretty, pretty. A fraud really, I had not been happy. I’ve been pretending to be happy, hoping that if I pretended hard enough, I’d grow into it. Yeah. And that that wasn’t happening. And I had been praying Oh, my did I pray I read the Bible. I prayed every night. And I mean, I, I had affirmations taped all over my house trying to pull myself out of this pit.

Brian Smith 42:32
Yeah, you were fighting hard.

Rosemary Ringer 42:34
Oh, boy, it was I had evolutions in my car. I and I had one. But when I came back from this, I thought I need, I need to change some things. So I had one of the largest private collections of ephemera in my niche topic of architecture in the world. And I donated it to a college library, I started selling off all my worldly possessions one by one. And I sold off heirlooms, and then my family for a couple generations or more. And with each thing, though, you know, it was really cool with each thing. I thought, Wow, I’ve really enjoyed this item. And I would stand over and I would say a prayer. And I would, I would just say God, this this thing has been such a blessing. It has brought me so much joy. But now can you please bring the person that will bless for the next decade or lifetime? And then invariably, these things sold very, very quickly. And then my friend is kind of funny now. I had two friends say, Are you ready to kill yourself? Because you’re getting rid of everything. I said, No, no, no, no, no.

Brian Smith 43:38
That was the opposite.

Rosemary Ringer 43:39
I found peace. Because I learned and I, in my own heart. I knew that if I told anybody. You know, before all this happened, that I was thinking of ending my life, people would intervene. So I knew to keep my mouth shut. Yeah, I was gonna do this. And that’s again, I guess, because back to suicide prevention.

Brian Smith 44:01
And that’s a really great point that I really want to I want to bring out because a lot of people listening have had children. I have a lot of parents that listen, that children Krause students suicide, and one of the first things we want to do is blame ourselves. In your case, your husband actually said it was your fault, too. Did you take that guilt on?

Rosemary Ringer 44:21
terribly so? Yeah. Honestly, I think if one could quantify such things 50% of the pain was the suicide and also the violence with which he ended his life 50% was that I I figured he was right. And you know, it’s um, I moved to the Midwest I after I sold everything I sold my car sold my house bought a used Prius moved 1000 miles due west in a used free as a start a new life, but I had saved some things from my old life. You know, the kids paperwork and and, you know, they’re my life. was in boxes and that’s fine. There’s there’s trinkets and treasures that I had saved. I opened up one of these boxes, and it was a collection of some little goofy thing I had. And my first thought was my very first one. No wonder he killed himself. You bought all this crap. And then I was like, wow, we’re still talking about that. We’re still dealing with that. So yeah, that crept up out of somewhere. And I had to stop. I dropped the as in the middle, you know, opening up and unpacking I dropped it. And I went to a room and I call myself down. And I thought, No, no, no, no, no, no, that’s the old script. That’s the old rosemary. Those are the old lies. Yeah, that’s the old nightmare. There’s a lot. Yeah, that’s not true. So yeah, 50% of the pain was from the suicide. And I’d say 50% was, I’m empathic. I’m a mother. I’m prone to a lot of guilt anyway. Yeah, man, that boy that just did man,

Brian Smith 45:55
their fingers. You now know it from both sides. You know it from having experienced your husband taking his life, and you having this suicidal ideation. And you realize that if you really want to do this, there’s no one that’s going to stop you.

Rosemary Ringer 46:08
Right? Right. That’s the takeaway. And his leaving that note was, he had had a very successful career as an attorney. And I think it was a mechanism that made sense to him, that he wouldn’t be held. Guilty Bible came to the right word, it wouldn’t be his problem. It was me that did it. Yeah, it worked. Oh, boy, oh, boy, did it work. And in looking back, it was kind of nuts that I spent two and a half years in that community. Because I should have left immediately. But I didn’t have the wherewithal I didn’t have the spiritual resources is tough.

Brian Smith 46:50
Yeah. And grief takes everything out of you to begin with, and you complicate the grief with the guilt. And it just, it just drains you. You don’t have any energy to do anything.

Rosemary Ringer 47:00
It did. It did. In fact, even moving when I did my buddy Milton, that’s his name. He was a great blessing in helping me get out of one house. And and you know, it’s been two years at September 5 2018, that I went to have a wonderful experience. Yeah, it was great. But I haven’t missed anything. None of that stuff. I soul. haven’t missed it a bit. Yeah. And I it’s so funny. I thought, Oh, you may regret this. I mean, I sold the house, I sold the car, I saw that car was really nice. I sold, I and I live in a spare bedroom, which has been a real blessing for me. It was, it was actually a family member who had lost his wife. So he’s got a great big house. And I really like living simply. Yeah. And it’s also a smaller environmental footprint. I mean, this thing of everyone living in 5000 Square Feet is much

Brian Smith 47:57
yeah, you know, it’s really interesting. Whereas work or you know, when people have these experiences, there’s some there’s some commonalities that are not universal, but some commonalities they come back with and one of them is just, you lose your attachment to physical objects, you start giving things away selling things, living more simply because you realize what’s really important in life is not these big, complicated things that we do we make important so you you had a total I read this the other day, I forgot I was Debra diamond, it said she says it’s not like it’s you come back as a 2.0. You come back like as a 20.0.

Rosemary Ringer 48:29
It’s like a really good point.

Brian Smith 48:31
Yeah. Yeah. You just come back as a different person. you’d mentioned when you give me some some notes of beginning that Milton had an experience when you Yeah, you had your experience. So tell me about that.

Rosemary Ringer 48:43
This is so cool. And this is it’s funny what people latch on to. Oh, and one of the very briefly my backup, one of the things the angels told me was, and this was after I was in that hospital because I was on total bed rest for four days in the hospital, you know, make sure I didn’t die. Yeah. They said that the stuff Wayne had done in left behind in the messies. And all that the message they said it had been encapsulated. And I’m an architectural story in and that’s what you do with potential toxic contaminants you encapsulate because the removing them tends to stir up more dust or ruin particulate matter, like asbestos. The current accepted means for dealing with asbestos in a home or even commercial properties you wrap it up pretty much hermetically seal it and and that’s considered superior or more advantageous because in taking it down, you disturb it so much. It spreads everywhere. So the the fact that the angels used that word encapsulated, I thought, Oh my gosh, that’s great. They’re speaking my language. But they said everything had been encapsulated. And that it was a thing, and it was there. But it could not hurt me. It could not harm me anymore. And then I because I asked him a lot of questions. That’s the thing about suicide is it is a death like no other. And there’s so many questions, but he said, why didn’t one of the questions was? Oh, my goodness, there were so many. But where’s he now? And they said, none of your business. And I said, Wait, what I prayed for this man, I prayed for me three times a day, what do you mean, none of my business and they said, We were to work out our own salvation you’re not to work out is. And they said you did the things you were supposed to do. You prayed for him, you saw him surrounded by light and love every day, which was my practice life habit. So there were a lot of questions. And the beauty part of these questions was that before this, I had just been ruminating on these questions. How could he do this? I thought he loved me. Where is he now? What’s happened to them? What Why did he do this, I thought he loved me on and on and on and on and on. And this took me out of that circle. And as the Bible says, You’ve circled a mountain long enough time to time to stop and go north. This took me out of the circling. And so I stopped asking these questions because I had my answers. And it was such a blessing, but as Milton so. So after, they gave me this shot of dilaudid and the little er, and they all stuffed me. They walk out because the blood isn’t showing up anymore. And then so Milton stayed with me sees my blood pressure go 30 to over 25 and then sees me reach up to heaven, and then plot back down and then met the blood pressure goes to air He said it was about because he’s former military. He’s got some pretty good training. He said it’s about two minutes before the nurse show back up because I think I’m just sleeping. Okay, so when they come back in the room, they they fiddled with the cuff and then they filled with the electrical plug into the wall. They Oh, well, this thing stopped working. At the human stop working. Yeah, so but he did get ushered out into the room. They did a sternum rub, which I had not heard of before, but apparently swear nurse rakes their little knuckles right over your center of your chest. Yeah, clearly it’ll if there’s any life there, it’ll elicit some sort of pain response. So they did that. Pretty, pretty hard, pretty regular, you know, several times he said you didn’t, you didn’t flinch. So then they summon the doctor in and then they shove him out. They shoot him out into the hall, because now they realize they have an issue. So while he’s standing there, he said, he was thinking she’s dead. You know, for 29 months, I’ve tried to keep her alive. Because he my buddy Milton was one I found my husband’s body. Oh, so what a what a pair of messy bookends, you know, first the husband does this. And then the wife bleeds to death. So he’s out in the hallway right outside the room. And I tell people he was hit by the blast radius, which I think is actually true. And prior to this note and been a very proud, avowed, clear atheist, he actually subscribed to a magazine called American atheist and he would come in the mail. He very proudly show it to look good writing. No, you keep that to yourself. Yeah. So that’s notes background. And while he’s out in that hallway, he said an angel came to him and said, You don’t need to worry. We just need her for a few minutes. She’ll be right back.

Brian Smith 53:35

Rosemary Ringer 53:37
And the thing was, he didn’t think to himself, wait a second, I don’t believe in angels. And he said it came with a feeling that somebody had wrapped a warm blanket of love and peace and joy around him. He said he just felt enveloped by his peace. And so he said it came with this feeling and with these words, and it changed him. And so after he hears this, he goes out to the lobby. He leaves the spot by the door goes out to the lobby and gets a soda. I said you What was it like I was in there for you know, blood workers, right? Yes. Yes. died. You saw it. You saw the whole thing as well. I was thirsty. Been a long day. Wow. So he went out there and then he had a soda. And he came back to the room. He came back and you know against it outside the hallway. And he said, Yeah, just waiting for you to come back. I knew you’d be what? So you know what’s interesting is after he said while he was standing there, four times the door to that small room open. And they emerged carrying linens literally soaked in blood. So the point is, I continue to believe men once they apparently removed that God, they saw how much I had continued. So it’s been two years for Milton, and he has Actually, it was just a few days after I was back home from the hospital and we were in my house and I was flopped out on my couch and Milton was there. His sister was there sitting in a chair opposite the couch. And Milton shares the story about the angel that came to him in the hallway. Really, we’re like, oh, yeah, we’re like, oh, do go on. Oh, wow. The very proud atheist is telling us about an angel visitation in a hospital and a feeling of being ensconced in in love and peace and joy. And he’s, he’s telling about, I said, so what did this do to your belief system? Yeah. And he said, It shattered every single thing I’ve ever believed, really. And his sister, who was sitting right there, she was very quiet, she leaned forward and choking back emotion. She said, Brother, I’ve been praying for you for 30 years that you would find out about God. So it was a pretty big deal. So now Milton, when he finds a Bible passage that he thinks is relevant to some challenge I’m having he’ll text it to me or me, copy it on the copier? To me, so yes, this has changed him I, you know, what, when I was still very close friends, and he, I will call him sometimes and say, help me remember something. And he, it’s amazing how this has changed him in the blink of an eye. And in the early days, I thought, why am I back? Why am I back? I didn’t want to come back. I still want to be there. So beautiful there. Why did I come back? And I think, Well, you know, maybe if the reason I came back was for Milton. That’s that’s a pretty big reason.

Brian Smith 56:42
Yeah. Yeah, I think there are probably multiple reasons why you came back. But it’s not it’s really that that’s really cool that collateral damage or collateral beauty of like you said, not getting hit by the blast radius. That’s a really, it’s close by. So we’re talking before we started recording, and I know some people said to you, and we were talking about a mutual friend of ours, also who had a near death experience, people are saying, you know, you’re being deceived. You’re deceiving people. You’re being deceived. But you’re out. Why are you telling you telling people these stories, and I’ve heard you refer to the Bible over and over again. So I’m gonna assume that you are a religious person that believes in God and believe in the Bible. So what is the deal with these people that think that you’re being deceived? What do you think about that?

Rosemary Ringer 57:29
I have, I just started sharing this story a couple years. Well, it’s been two years since I started sharing about a year ago, right? Immediately, immediately that you were in hell, there’s were demons on the other side of the door. It’s good. You came back and get a second chance at salvation. I’m like, I think that was L. I don’t think those were demons. I don’t think I think there was something in the Bible about the disciples, the disciples were told to put down their fishing net. So everything they have in the follow Christ, I thought I, I’m not trying to accumulate more stuff. I my goal. And my my big goal is to share this, you know, gospel means good news. And I think this is good news. And I know it encourages a lot of people. So those people because there’s two, there’s the atheist who say, it’s, oh, it’s the brain shutting down. Okay, then you want to talk about the stage two cancer, that has advanced to a point that it has distorted the flesh, that’s just simply gone. We’ll talk about that. How does that happen? Why don’t tell me about that one. Because they say we and then you know, I met a neuro oh my goodness, what are they called neuros neuro psychologist or something. She She her background is in neurology and psychology. And there’s a fancy word that eludes me right now. She actually took a detour from Iowa to come meet me here in southwestern Illinois, because she said, I said, the most compelling part of these nd stories is not the bright light and the encounter with spiritual beings. She said the fact when people come back from these, they’ve changed their entire life. Exactly. So I want it I want to hear what you did. And I told her and she said the most believable part of your story to me is these changes take a human being years decades or perhaps nap and a lifetime to make these substantive changes. And she said, you were you were completely changed from the DNA up. Yeah. And I do agree with that everything I my gosh, we’re somewhere driving yesterday. And I saw I think it was just the sun setting. And I burst into tears. I thought it’s so beautiful. It’s just also beautiful. And that’s that’s a brave new world for me. That’s it. So I don’t know I there’s a story of Annabel beam if you ever heard of her? I don’t think so. No, little kid I think she was 10 fell into a cottonwood hollow cottonwood tree. And she had had a life threatening illness when this fall took place. And while there the angels came, Jesus appeared to her said you’re going to be okay. And they took her to heaven and gave her a nice little tour and it took him five hours to rescue this kid out of this hollowed out rotted tree. branch or something.

Brian Smith 1:00:10
Yeah, I wasn’t sorry. Yeah.

Rosemary Ringer 1:00:12
When she came Annabel beam when she came back, she was healed. She talked about heaven and the angels and seeing Jesus but she was also healed of this life threatening disease instantaneously. And her mother was frustrated that people weren’t believing the story. They thought that some part of it was contrived or made up and Annabel told her mother, she said, It’s okay, mom, there’ll be a day when they believe. Yeah, I understand

Brian Smith 1:00:36
where I’m at. It’ll come for all of us at some point, but I think it’s a, I think it’s fascinating. I would like to touch on we’ve got the materialist atheist that says, this is all fake. And then we’ve got the religious people that say, well, it’s all deceit. And I’m like, okay, so Satan, when he deceives, us is going to tell us, I want you to spread a message of love, peace, joy, hope, generosity. I want you to go out and live a better life. And then when you come here, I’m going to put you in hell.

Rosemary Ringer 1:01:06
Really good. Yeah. thought of it like that.

Brian Smith 1:01:09
Yeah, I’m like it to me. It’s like, okay, you know, the Bible says, you know, you judge a tree by its fruits. So what are people? What are people that have indies do? What when they come back? Are they you know, are they out trying to make a lot of money? Are they trying to accumulate more things? Now? What are they actually doing? What’s the message that they’re spreading? And it’s spreading the same message Jesus spread? So yeah, it’s just, it’s really interesting to me how people on both ends of the spectrum say, it’s all crazy, but I really appreciate you sharing it. And I know you’re working on a book to tell your story, right? Yes,

Rosemary Ringer 1:01:41
I am. And when this first happened, I declared boldly and repeatedly as the author of nine books, which have taken years to write, and they’re about historic architecture and require a lot of research. Writing is not a fun thing. And this boy talks about a different genre, the historic architecture to having had haven’t seen heaven. So in the beginning, I declared I would not write a book. And then after I started giving a few talks, people said, Please write a book. And then I had a YouTube video that somebody recorded at, actually, Roberta Moore recorded at an ions conference. And that little little bit of YouTube video has had 46,000 hits, which shocked me in the comments. There are days I wonder, what what am I doing here? I want to be there. I don’t want to be here. But reading those comments are a great blessing. And the, I’d say a lot of them are from people who’ve lost somebody to suicide. And if there is one message I have for the world, if you lose someone to suicide, there’s nothing you could have done to make it happen. There’s nothing you could have done to stop it. Yeah, when they get to that point, you are just not that powerful. You just don’t have that bigger presence in their mind in their heart. So he has a lot of people, his parents also have somebody who have a child has ended their life. And they also want to know, where’s my child? What are they experiencing? Are they in hell? And that’s probably my most frequently asked question is do suicides go to hell. And in my opinion, I believe it’s known it’s documented. Roughly 90% of suicides are mental illness related 10% are either criminal nature or revenge related. In other words, I’ll get you you know, you took away my kids or you took away this or that I’ll, I’ll show you, this will finish you off. And then some or you know, somebody gets caught doing something bad, and they don’t want to pay the consequences. So my point is 90% of suicides are connected to mental illness. When somebody has a heart attack. We don’t say Wow, look at the wife did just probably just giving him too much butter at dinner. Right. But a brain attack. I don’t see a big difference between your brain going bad. Your heart going bad. I really don’t. So suicides go to heaven. Yeah, I, I think I do think they maybe spend more time in the White Room Seriously? I don’t know.

Brian Smith 1:03:55
Yeah, I’ve heard some mediums talk about and this is kind of kind of a controversial too, because some people say as soon as we cross over, all of our burdens are gone. And we’re right back to where we were. But I’ve heard several mediums say there’s there’s like a hospital like setting or there may be some sort of counseling or something to to get that person, you know, back in the right frame of mind. And you know, these things might be metaphor. So you saw a white room with this mist. That was a healing type of thing. When we’ve been in that state for so long in this body. We’ve got to kind of wash that stuff away. I think it’s a really great metaphor.

Rosemary Ringer 1:04:28
Yes, and suicide is just so damaging. I one of my dreams, and it’s a big dream is so typical of suicide, that even law enforcement looks to the spouse, and it’s not uncommon for the spouse to become the lead suspect in what they consider a murder invest a homicide investigation when something turns up dead, even suicide. And I was questioned by the cops and fortunately it was brief and I was by phone They asked me this specific words, they called me on the phone because I was trying to get home from Boston, we lived in Virginia. And the cops called me and said, we need to know the nature of your last argument with him. And I said, I just got a call that my husband blew out his brains, I do not feel that this is an appropriate time. And I do not feel this is an appropriate question. I’m kind of amazed, given all the circumstances, I had the wherewithal to do that. But if I could wave a magic wand, I would create an organization, organization or foundation or something that would provide advocacy and victim assistance to women who’ve just found their husbands hanging in a garage, or drowned in the backyard or whatever. Because it is, you know, it was only what, 50 years ago, that when a woman was raped, the question was, what were you wearing? What were you? What were you doing? Did you say something to him? And we’re still doing that with suicides. We need to have some kind of advocacy program in place when a woman is sat down, when she just finds out her husband did this. And question by the police. Where were you when this happened? Do you own a gun? Why are you even talking about before he did this? That is wildly inappropriate, wildly. So I wish I wish there was a way to solve that problem.

Brian Smith 1:06:13
Yeah, I think I think you make an excellent point. And I think in a broader point, we talked to this, I think before we started recording, you know, the however we crossover However, if whether it’s suicide, or murder, or heart attack, or cancer or whatever, we’re all going to go home at some point. And we take these certain things, especially suicide, and we type stigma to them, to the person who actually committed they’re who did the act of killing themselves. And also to the family, you know, a lot of times whether it’s a parent or a spouse or whatever, what did what did, you know, surely there was some signs, something that you’ve missed, something that you should have done, and people might not say it in those words, but that’s kind of the the underlying tone I think a lot of people have. And so I think when you’re telling a story is so important to tell people, it’s not your fault, it’s not your fault, it’s what someone else does is never your fault.

Rosemary Ringer 1:07:05
It isn’t. And I, as I mentioned, I can remember, we talked about this before or after we started recording, but I did go to one suicide support group, and it was primarily parents, but I there was one woman a little older than me. And she said to the group, my son would still be alive if he hadn’t marry that woman. And I was like, Alright, we’re done. I’m not gonna listen to this anymore. And I get it part of it. You know, part of it is with people who have not experienced trauma, because my husband’s visitation after he did this was closed casket. And yet, they had the casket behind us. And then we have people walk up towards you, and give their condolences. When you see the couples as they approach the casket, squeeze each other a little tighter, hold each other a little closer. And then they say, and this is one of those things that you should never say to a widow of any kind. They say, if anything happened to Robbie, I just lay down and yes, and you think oh, so I didn’t love them as much as you love your husband. Yes, thanks. Got it. But and also people ask, didn’t leave a note. And the thing was that I realized that we want to figure this out. They’re trying to make sure that this level of horror never infiltrates their life. They want to figure out okay, she screwed up, but I’m not gonna let that happen in my life. Exactly. It’s that makes me angry. Yes. But that’s very common.

Brian Smith 1:08:30
It is very common. And I and I find that awesome when children pass by any means people what they what they ask all these questions, because they want to insulate themselves from it, they want to make sure well, this would never happen to my child. And this will never happen to me, because it’s only happens to other people until it doesn’t, you know, it could it can happen to any of us. And I think it’s very important that that people like yourself that have experiences, speak out and say okay, don’t say these things to people. This is not helpful. You think you’re being helpful when people say the same thing? Yeah. Well, if my child ever, you know, passed or my child died, I couldn’t go on I couldn’t live and you know, I felt that way. I mean, I think we all do but we all have to do but we have to do to get to get through and we have a reason for being here. And so it doesn’t help when someone tells you that it’s that’s not helpful at all.

Rosemary Ringer 1:09:19
And people until people I’ve learned this to until somebody has gone through this kind of trauma. They are clueless you cannot realize what this does to your brain. Yeah, I always put great stock and the fact that I consider myself really smart and after this it was more like I had had a stroke I lost the ability to read I for a couple months I couldn’t even drive I had to have a fun drive me

Brian Smith 1:09:41
It damages you brain.

Rosemary Ringer 1:09:43
It does and I remember a year out a year out my as I mentioned my buddy Milton was living cheering that rental home with me one for finances helps a lot to have a roommate, but I decided okay, it’s been a year to try to cook and I grabbed a mix, a cake Bok mix and I thought okay, this is It’s pretty simple. And I read the ingredients. And I think it was like two eggs and some oil and some water and something else and I couldn’t grasp it. I couldn’t read a recipe. And I got so angry and then frustrated, I cry, and I handed it to him. And I said, it’s telling me to do something, but I can’t figure this out. It doesn’t make sense helped me. And he took over and he did it. I’ve written nine books, and I couldn’t read the recipe on the back of a cake mix. That’s what trauma does to your brain. So these peoples that will pull you up by yours, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and focus on the good and all this other stuff. They are clueless.

Brian Smith 1:10:39
Yeah, it takes everything out of you. And but the other thing is amazing is how resilient the human spirit is. And people say, Well, I could never do it. And I’m like, you can you could, you just don’t know it, because you haven’t been put in that position yet. But humans, we find a way to get through. And as long as we have hope of we’ll know we’ll find a way. So I appreciate you really saying that, because it’s a very common thing. You know, we go through these these traumas, and people don’t realize, you know, how it just drains everything out of you.

Rosemary Ringer 1:11:09
It does and people have often said, Oh, you’re strong. And I say, I consider that a foul word. I say do not call me strong. Tech. resilient is the word I allow. I am not strong. I did not want this. I everyday I thank God for this man. Every day I knew. I just I don’t know, every day I knew that he was I thought he was the man for whom I had prayed for years. Yeah, so not strong. resilient. Yes.

Brian Smith 1:11:36
Yeah, exactly. Well, we’ve within about an hour. So I really appreciate you doing this. For us. It’s been it’s been a pleasure talking to you. Again, I think your your, your what you’ve been through is going to help so many people, I can’t wait to the book comes out. Maybe you’ll come back, we can do another interview then. Thank you very much. Anything you want to say before we close the day?

Rosemary Ringer 1:12:00
Just that has really the question, just that if you if you find somebody suffering from the loss of a child or spouse to suicide, the best thing you can do is show up and shut up. Do not tell about your uncles, brothers, fathers cousin son who killed themselves and you know just what they’re going through. Don’t liken it to anything in your experience, because suicide is a death like no other. So yeah, that is the advice I would share a show up and shut up hug one older model sob. I used to do something my daughter called the pterodactyl screen. In the early days. I would just sit on the couch and screen, huh? Yeah. And people think your baby’s occupied. Stop, stop, stop. You’re upsetting the dog.

Brian Smith 1:12:45
Yeah, you got to let it out. Got to feel all those feelings. Thanks, guys. It’s been it’s been great talking to you. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Rosemary Ringer 1:12:52
Thank you very much.

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